StarLost
StarLost
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@SunsetSherbet said:
Man PTB really is worthless, isn't it? Day of PTB everyone including content creators screamed she was amazing, super strong, possibly S tier, needs serious toning down etc. Then she releases and now everyone is saying she's terrible. Then again, people have said that about every character released in the past 2 years.
Not terrible. About on par with Cenobite - a bit stronger base, a bit weaker addons.
Just - people were going on about her like she was a Nurse with a Pyramid Head in each hand.
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@abu3MRH said:
Lately NOED Uses abused it by doing nothing until the end it make the game boring AF and making survivors losing thanks it's really not fair and the DEVS need to do something about it. 10 games in less than 2 hours same thing lost 3 thank even with exit I can't get any plant.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/C94HLCSLDTMA/photo.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DGNAB9D2NOKP/photo-282-29.jpg
What?
He probably had a butt-queue and by the time he realized he was ingame, it was almost over.
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@Labrac said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2671629#Comment_2671629
Plague without her Corrupt is still a M1 killer, and COH makes me question if Hag is even B tier nowadays.
The thing about Artist is that she's not a set up killer. You're not supposed to be planting crows in every pallet because obviously survivors are just going to run away. Think of her as a Huntress instead, and use single Crows to get Swarms, and all 3 to guarantee hits.
I've been doing okay as Hag vs CoH. The way it plays out is I hit them, they run and they hit another trap and I down them.
Plague can mow down entire teams with corrupt, and without it, you're an permanent instakiller with wallhacks thanks to her iri.
That's exactly how I play her, the problem being that she loses a lot of speed and crows are ridiculously easy to juke.
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@TruEternity said:
That’s a mental state that the community enforced upon itself. If you feel bad about the game as killer when you don’t 4K, you should reevaluate. There is no real win condition for either side, so people just assume a 4K is a win, and anything else a loss. That’s not the case, the game has far more nuance that performance should be judged as successful or not, not just did you 4K/escape?
Killer can be just as rewarding to play when you don’t 3-4K, or heck, get kills at all. Making insane curves, cross map hatchets, max distance Victor lunges, perfect long distance 1 blink hits as Nurse, I could go on. Point is the perception that anything but a 4K is failure is purely a community mindset as I said, and it needs to change IMO. Making outplays and improving as a player should be the goal, but people just want that 4K, since that’s what they see on twitch and YouTube.
No. The devs have been pretty clear with MMR.
If you escape, you win.
If you die, the killer wins.
Thus, if more survivors survive than die, it's a loss for the killer.
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@brokedownpalace said:
It's been like a day.
Sure.
Which is why my post title wasn't 'The Artist Needs A Buff'.
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@Labrac said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2671619#Comment_2671619
The thing is that Artist has a way more reliable long range ability than Huntress. Sure she will take time to down survivors sometimes, but what other killers besides Nurse, Spirit and Blight can down survivors faster?
Hag.
Plague.
Spirit.
The biggest thing I'm finding with Artist is that people just prefer to leave loops against her the second I plant crows, and even faking it gives me a substantial slowdown and by the time I've caught up, they are at a safe loop and the process begins again.
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@beatddb said:
So I've been playing with the artist in all my matches and she's pretty powerful, but could use a few change that would make her less affected by maps.
- Make her able to aim her crows up and down, not just in a straight line.
Basically what this would do is give her more flexibility in multi leveled maps such as RPD, right now if you want to check a gen in another floor with her crows you can't since you can only aim in a straight line from where you put the crows.
- Make crows stick to a certain level above the ground.
Same as the other point, some maps affect The Artist because of their verticality. For example, the swamp has a lot of verticality and some gens are still on the ground but above certain level, so you cant hit your crows there from anywhere on the map. By making crows stick to the ground they would travel in a line but still move up and down between bumps on the ground or "ramps".
Since verticality is something the devs are aiming for in their maps, I don't know why this wasn't added since the first day.
What do you think? I know she's S or A tier already but I think this changes are more of QoL than straight buffs.
The latter would be an amazing QOL fix.
Her UR and Iri addons also feel like they need a numbers pass. A lot of them feel like their benefits are more than outweighed by their drawbacks.
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@ad19970 said:
She is strong in my opinion, but luckily not op. If you expect a survivor to run away from a loop, you could try to fake placing a bird and then catch them easier that way.
Holding w is definitely the most effective strategy against her in many cases, but she still has the potential to hit a survivor at far ranges, it‘s just harder to do. But her potential to shut down loops alone makes her a fairly strong killer.
She is balanced in my opinion, although i do believe that a few changes could further improve her gameplay, and that of survivors going against her. But i have enjoyed the few matches against her so far.
Also, the new scourge hook perk is amazing in my opinion. An actual, new and viable perk alongside other slowdown perks. Of course that perk is affected by rng a bit as well. But I think it sits well between ruin and pgtw when it comes to its rng and effectiveness.
I'm becoming a fan of Penti+Retribution+Plaything perks wise - still trying to get Agitation unlocked on birb lady. I've never liked Ruin (unreliable) or Pop (takes too much time to utilize sometimes). I tend towards being very aggressive - Surge gets a lot of use on almost all my killers.
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/297201/so-how-do-i-go-about-getting-the-artist-adept
- Proxy Tunnel one survivor to limit their effectiveness and force them to take less risks
- Look for good slug off hook opportunities
- Map Offering should probably be Saloon. Let them do saloon and hanged man platform gens for free to create 1 level, ideal 3 stacks
- Try to do it immediately upon release as survivors will be going for their adapt, giving you more tunneling opportunities
- Queue during peak hours to have more solo queue survivors in your pool
Should be able to bang it out in 2-3 games.
Yeah Saloon is your best bet.
The worst thing about the Artist adept is the fact that you are essentially running only two perks, as Penti is utterly useless without other hexes.
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Damn.
Well, thanks for the update.
I guess I'll go and...gah. Be productive.
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@UMCorian said:
IMHO: This is the biggest problem with playing Killer at most levels of DBD - if you don't 3 or 4K, the game feels like you lost.
Take Survivor, you can still objectively have a fun, rewarding experience even if the killer 3Ks. Hell, sometimes even dying to insure the killer only 3Ks is still a fun, rewarding experience.
Imagine how bad this game would feel like as a Survivor, if even if you escaped, you felt like it was a loss unless everyone also escaped?
Yet, playing killer, failing to kill 2... and watching the survivors teabag you in the gate until you eventually escort them on their way feels like a loss.
Whether this is a community created perception image or something the game somehow cultivates, I think everything would get better if they found a way to fix this... because right now the Devs balance the game around 2 kills, 2 escape. Because of that, they're always going to seem to be against killers... because the very nature of their game design is to balance the killer around having a game that's perceived (by the community) to be a loss.
The game needs to feel better for a killer who only gets 2 kills... if this is how the Devs want to balance it.
Eh.
I have no problem with losing a good game or winning a good game.
What I don't like is:
- One sided stomps going either way.
- Being gloated at by toxic survivors after I get stomped (put on a brave face if you want, but I think this gets to everyone after a while).
- MMR issues - being thrown to a significantly more skilled group of survivors because they've been in queue for a while, as sort of a snack. This inevitably ends up in the above.
- Games where multiple gens pop before I even locate my first survivor to chase.
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@PleassBuiltInNoed said:
I've been using pentimento with the new scourge perk, lullaby and thrill of the hunt and I had quite a decent sucess with it.
Due to totems taking quite a bit extra time to cleanse, survivors at least break 1 hex totem per game rather than booning it. If they don't then they have lullaby on their ass which is pretty strong perk after you get like 3 hooks. Even good survivors start missing skill checks, because they are simply not used to the delay in sound notification.
However you can replace lullaby with any other hex perk that is strong in general and survivors always want to get rid of it.
Eh...
This is more an issue of:
A. You getting lucky and them not just finding and booning TOTH immediately which happens to me whenever I try a build with TOTH.
B. Them misplaying.
The only reliable way I've found to use Penti with any level of success is with Plaything. That means that a perk on the new killer requires another perk off another paid DLC to really work properly.
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@Colton147147 said:
I 4K all the time when playing as a perkless Clown at high MMR without any difficult.
I also 4K all the time with a unique build on him.
Yes.
Sure.
And my butt speaks Japanese.
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@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670556#Comment_2670556
Why not give the players a Handicap when you know they are being matched badly just to make a queue shorter?
Why not have the option to opt out of swfs? or limit to a duo? You can play with your friends all you want in free mode. I don't want to play with your friends.
It's more concerning that you can get the worst of both worlds, by design.
- Get queued into a stompy premade because they were waiting for too long.
- Not lose any MMR when you get stomped, so you get another stompy group directly after until you roll a '6'.
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@DesignDad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670928#Comment_2670928
Disclaimer: I'll avoid giving specific numbers here as an anti-exploit measure. If I say the exact values, one of you clever folks will figure out a way to ride the line and do something cute with it!
If a DC happens early enough in a match, then the result of that matchup is discarded. So if one survivor DCs right away, then that survivor's MMR is left alone, and the Killer's MMR isn't adjusted for that survivor either. It can still be adjusted based on the remaining three, depending on how the rest of the match goes (these are weighted so that if the survivors die it doesn't impact MMR as much since they were at a disadvantage).
Later in the match, though, the adjustment goes through. This is so that you can't just DC before getting hooked to "skip" the adjustment. And likewise, if the Killer DCs when the gates open, that's treated like all 4 survivors escaped in terms of MMR adjustment. Rage quitting is the most common reason to disconnect in these scenarios, so that's what we're targeting with this logic.
Part of this also to make smurfing more time consuming: You can't just join games and immediately DC to drop your MMR. You gotta hang around for a while, which makes intentionally tanking your MMR much more of a slog and generally time consuming. Forcing people to hang out in a match also makes it more likely that they'll actually end up playing it normally, too! And then you add onto all of this the DC penalties, which increase with each disconnection, and suddenly those who disconnect are spending a lot of time for very little influence over the system.
Thanks for asking a great question! DC logic is tricky business, and we're always working on new ways to improve it to handle more extreme cases, like the one you mentioned.
Fantastic, thanks. That's a huge mystery solved.
What happens in the case of a loading screen DC (The Host Has Disconnected or something)? Is the entire match discarded?
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@agonizing said:
“At the Start of the trial, up to 4 random hooks are changed into scourge hooks. You see their auras in white.”
It’s not stacking white hooks when pairing the two scourge perks. I know it says “up to” but it doesn’t say limited to or limit of 4 scourge hooks.
From what I understand it, the cap is '4' and this can't be bypassed by bringing multiple Scourge perks (as nice as this would be).
Sadly, two of the Artist's 3 perks essentially require another perk to function. Agitation for hooks, Plaything for Penti.
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@Actionjacksn said:
Can you notice this or its just me? It is quite unusual to me because if there is a new killer it is usually short que as survivor because of everyone want to try out the new killer.
As others have said, it's because playing killer right now is frustrating, both because of the difficulty and helplessness the role can confer and due to the treatment of killers by survivor players.
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@dugman said:
I keep seeing comments that the map is “massive”, “too big”, “way too large”, etc. It’s actually a common size map.
For reference its area is 9984 m². All the following maps are exactly 9984 m². Whether you think all of these maps are too big or not too big is up to you, but either way they’re literally all the exact same size.
- Eyrie of Crows
- Ormond
- both Yamaoka Estate maps
- Temple of Purgation
- Fractured Cowshed
- Groaning Storehouse
REALMS
The issue is the sheer complexity and verticality of the central 'tower'. The rest of the map is basically fine and I rather like it - but it can be nearly impossible to locate survivors up there if they decide to stall the game out and play hide and seek.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2671003#Comment_2671003
Base wraith loses 2.3 seconds to overcome compared to without it. Just cloak and zoom after them
Outside of instadown killers he's the least effected of Overcome. It's so overrated it's not funny anymore
It's not about distance - it's about how long for them to get to a safe loop.
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@Mercês said:
I've never seen a cheaper combo on my life.
Absolutely stalling the game with no effort. Explosion from the other side of the map? No problem, I'll be there in no time.
I just wish I had a better looping team so this thing would proc less.
What's your opinion on this? Have you had similar experiences?
Wraith? No. He gets rocked by CoH and Overcome probably more than any other killer.
He's committed heavily into regression, and will thus be able to stall out a game somewhat but will lack a lot of offense. Just loop him while everyone else does gens.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670844#Comment_2670844
If you wouldn't mind me asking, how does disconnecting impact your MMR? I've had games- unfortunately, a lot of them- where players have curbstomped me (these being incredibly good players that I woulnd't have stood a chance against without playing my mains) however at the end all 4 have DC'd. Would this raise my MMR and lower theirs? Freeze everyone's?
How does it work?
Thank you for asking this!
I was wondering this myself and really should have remembered to ask here.
If a survivor DCs, does that inflate my MMR/decrease theirs?
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@DesignDad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670592#Comment_2670592
I'll answer what I can so we can both go back to building decks / falling asleep while watching The Big Game. I'm mostly focused on answering questions about the existing system, and not going into too much details about potential future changes.
- For those insta-queues that feel unbalanced, you're correct! Imagine the situation I was describing before where you are waiting and waiting for someone to show up in the queue that's within your range, but from the other side. A group of survivors is waiting (and to be clear, they might not be a full SWF, just that they are grouped together by the MM system), and then you pop into the queue: An opponent who is near the edge but within the boundary for their search. "Wonderful!" the MM system thinks, "I can finally give them a match. It might not be the most balanced, but hey, they're playing after a long wait!".
- We actually had a system in place to prevent smurfing / intentionally dropping your MMR before, and it ended up causing more problems than it helped. That's not to say that it's off the table forever, but rather that it's a really tricky problem to solve in a way that works across the board. it's not at the top of the list right now, as there are other issues that we can tackle with bigger payoff in terms of matchmaking improvements. Prioritization!
- I could talk for hours about defining a "good match", but I'll do my best to summarize: What the MMR system does is predict the outcome of a match before it starts. More specifically, it predicts the odds of the outcomes. With a large enough sample size, it's actually really good at this! If you look at all the games where the system says "PlayerA has a 60% chance of escaping this match", PlayerA does escape those matches about 60% of the time. Generally speaking (and I'm definitely simplifying here, so don't take this too literally) we operate under the assumption that a 50% escape chance per player is indicative of a balanced match. This holds true in most games outside of DbD, be it Chess or [Insert Popular FPS Franchise Here]. If both players are equally as skilled, then the odds of either one winning are about equal. So if you can make a match where the prediction is that the odds are equal, then you've likely got a balanced match!
- Some people are willing to wait 30+ minutes for a perfect match, and others don't want to wait more than 5 no matter what. So we have to find a decent compromise, which is extremely difficult. Remember that the MM system isn't just trying to find you good matches, it's trying to find good matches for every single player!
- I'm not going to go into long-term plans here but I will say that we have consciously decided not to show explicit MMR values for now, as doing this generally result in a lot of toxicity for other online games.
- I'm very familiar with the technique of managing group MMR, and it's something that we have also considered. For a while, I was thinking about maintaining a completely independent MMR for solo queue and group queue, which is something I have seen other games do. That said, several of them have moved away from that technique as it didn't actually provide much benefit for matchmaking, but did result in a fair bit of technical overhead. Overall, we're still open to doing something like this once we feel like we've got a good solution and that it's going to be a meaningful improvement, but there are bigger fish to fry for the moment. As it stands, we're taking the average MMR of the group and using that for matchmaking, which works fairly well at a high level. We'll likely revisit this after we've made other improvements elsewhere.
- SBMM never goes offline. It sees you when you're killing, it knows when you escape. It knows when games are bad or good, so play good for goodness sake! But for real, the MM system learns by doing. When you get matched in something that feels crazy unbalanced, the system is paying attention and adjusting both your MMR and your opponent's MMR accordingly. There are situations where the system can be very unsure about where a player should fit, and so it tosses them into games to calibrate their MMR. When you do happen to end up in a game against these folks, keep in mind that your MMR is likely not being adjusted that much by the result.
I hope that helps clear a few things up. Overall, the biggest challenge of building a matchmaking system is that it has to produce thousands and thousands of matches every day, so we have to take the big picture AND the zoomed in view into account. For every discussion we have about a graph showing all games in the last month, we also dig into specific examples to see how they are panning out, too.
Thanks for taking the time to ask questions and listen! <3
Whoa, thanks mate. I'll give this a read through.
EDIT: Let me go point by point, because this is genuinely interesting to me (as someone who has dabbled in game design).
- Yes, I'm not really sure what could be done here. On one hand it must be frustrating to wait for ages, but on the other hand it does sometimes feel like I'm being thrown as a snack to the crocodiles. If I was going to be entirely honest, a big reason for this is how often I get teabagged and gloated at after getting stomped by these groups (which does wear on you, even if you put on a brave face). This game has a...colorful community at times.
- I think you may need to consider bringing this back. I know that it sometimes occurs to me to manage my own MMR, and - especially when I start feeling outclassed - I'm tempted to just let some more people escape (I try to resist because I've seen so many games ruined by smurfing). I'm not sure what the reality of the situation is, but the common perception is that when you start learning a new killer/haven't played one for a while, it gets pegged just under the highest MMR of your killers. I...have no idea what the truth of this one is (so much information on SBMM is hearsay and recycled gossip taken as fact).
- That does sound like a balanced match - but due to the somewhat snowbally nature of DbD a lot of games feel like one sided stomps going one way or another. This isn't so much an MMR issue as a 'feel' issue though, and is beyond me to solve.
- Yeah, it's a knotty one. I know that my survivor queues are sometimes long enough to watch an entire episode of Bob's Burgers. I have no idea how to get people to play killer more. Well...I have some, but that's going to put the cat amongst the pigeons...
- I'm glad you mentioned the toxicity issue - because it's one of the two things that does make DbD something of a hard sell when I try to drag the wife and my Dungeons and Dragons crew into it (the second being the grind). It's likely outside the scope of this discussion, but I wonder if some sort of positive reinforcement via a reward tied to the 'thumbs up' postgame option (naturally only being able to apply it to your opponent) could be a partial solution.
- Thanks. I'm glad that the SWF thing is at least on the radar. The difference between going up against a group of solos and a group of coordinated survivors is staggering, even at my likely intermediate MMR. Others have suggested more robust communication solutions for solos and a corresponding balance adjustment for killers, but yeah - again, wandering off topic.
- Interesting. The only thing I don't like about this is that my MMR isn't shifting much despite me getting hammered flat. This is what sometimes (I think) creates those awful strings of games where you just start wondering if you are really bad at the game, because despite suffering a massive loss, nothing prevents you from getting that sort of group immediately after.
All this aside, I do appreciate you dialoguing with me (us) here. You've made a hell of a game and - while balance is always a moving target - I do feel somewhat optimistic for the future.
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@Lochnload_exe said:
I see so many people leaving killer and I can see why, the role is much more stressful than survivor, but where did people get this idea that it shouldn't be?
In any game that is 1v4 or etc., the role that is by themselves will obviously be more stressful because you are your whole team. I really don't know where this idea of killer needing to be super easy win mode came from, the game has always been rough for killers and right now, killer has much less to worry about than they used to.
I get complaining about survivors being strong but here is something I always think about. If the 4 survivors are using their 4 strongest perks, and you as killer are not also using your 4 strongest perks, why is it a shock when you lose? If you aren't putting yourself at the same level perk-wise, why do you beat yourself up when you lose? They have an advantage over you and losing is definitely more in your favor.
This isn't bad though, that is how games work. What I don't understand is why this is complained about so hard. I do believe killer needs some basekit buffs, but acting like killer's get steamrolled super hard every game just isn't true. If all you care about is winning as killer, 4k etc, then it is super possible. You can play scummy, you can throw on the best perks, you can throw on the best killer, and use map offerings all you want, just like they can do. All is fair and part of the game.
It isn't fun to me to do that lol and if it isn't fun for you and you want to use stuff you like, then do it. Play and have fun, don't care about winning or getting a 4k, a 2k is perfectly fine. If you aren't playing hard to win like they are, don't be upset when you lose, be happy when you can beat them despite the advantage. If you only want to win, then you most certainly can, I promise that.
Woof.
Okay, let's dig in here.
- Don't strawman. Nobody is asking for easy wins. They are asking for aspects of the game that they feel are unbalanced to be fixed.
- About half of the killer roster has serious problems; be it boring, undercooked addons, a playstyle that is countered by boons or an inability to handle strong loops. About 2/3 of the killer roster is not considered viable at high MMRs. That's a massive problem.
- There are 3 maps in the game that are somewhat 'killer favored', and even that's debatable. More than half the maps in the game are survivor favored. There are still infinites against certain killers. This is not acceptable.
- 2ks are rare. This game is snowbally by it's nature. You either stomp or get stomped.
- In typical 1v4 APVP games, the solo role tends towards being the 'power' role. This isn't the case in DbD, which is jarring.
- Survivors are incredibly toxic on a pretty frequent basis - whether it be DCing or teabagging. A big part of killer frustrations isn't so much losing, it's losing and being gloated at. This gets under your skin.
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@JeanCharpentier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670746#Comment_2670746
Only nurse can 4k regularly at high MMR against SWF level survivors.
The other killers you have listed can do 5 hooks at best...
Yeah this is going to come down to anecdotes.
Nurse can be fiendishly strong, but is inconsistent from my experience.
Plague is a bit less strong, but more consistent.
@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670734#Comment_2670734
Plenty of people have said positive things about boon totems - the thing is most people look at one side only.
Hah! Yes. I'm sure survivor players love them.
The core issues to my mind:
- Killer time is at more of a premium than survivor time, and the fact that they can be relit makes hunting for and snuffing them often feel like the wrong move.
- Being able to stack CoH and Overcome on a single totem allows a coordinated team to essentially have Sprint Burst and Self Care for the cost of 2 slots out of 16, rather than 8.
- The fact that they can project through floors means that, on indoor maps, they can cover a disproportionately huge area with almost no way to reliably find the thing.
- CoH stacks so aggressively with other healing perks that it nullifies attrition based styles and forces certain killers into a narrow set of build choices.
- Pentimento, a perk that a lot of us were excited about not only requires another perk from a different DLC to really function, but is pretty rough against booners.
I'm sure that you have metrics that we don't have access to - but there does seem to be a consensus among killer players that boons are a problem. And this isn't just an echo-chamber effect - even the normally very 'balance neutral' Otzdarva has pointed out how much difficulties they cause certain killers.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
The negativity (especially on these forums) has gotten to the point where a segment of the community are just louder. Doesn’t mean they are right or have any substance.
For me the “I quit this game” Threads are so useless and I just mostly skip them because they have become a meme at this point. As an example.
Its also kind of hard to express feedback on the killer side when this place is riddled with individuals who will constantly shut you down and mock you simply for having a different opinion or experience than them (It’s always the same people of you look at the names).
No...I definitely think that a lot of killer complaints are justified right now.
It never feels nice to be on the sharp end of a double standard, and the sheer speed and power of the nerfs applies to killers/addons when compared to stuff like CoH are pretty overwhelming.
There is a common impression that killers are being balanced around newer survivors, which is going to grate on more experienced players who feel stuck in a narrow, stale meta.
And that's before we get into map balance and the plethora of killer bugs that will likely never be fixed (silent gens, silent survivors, busted addons etc.).
Sure, the majority isn't always right.
But it isn't always wrong either. And when a huge chunk of your veteran playerbase are telling you something, it's usually an indication that something has gone badly wrong.
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@JeanCharpentier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670703#Comment_2670703
I disagree for the High MMR with the Plague. If the survivors don't use the fountains, she is just a basic M1 killer and on most maps there are so many safe loop areas that she cannot do anything and will loose 1 minute to catch an injured survivor.
For the killer tier list, i have never understood the point. Why do we need tier S, A, B. The only question is : which killers are viable at high MMR ? (viable = if you are great with this killer you can win most of your games with this killer or at least you can have 100% close trials).
So which killers are viable at high MMR ? Nurse and that's all. (Dunno for the artist, haven't played her yet).
Viable : Nurse
Not viable : Everyone else
She's an M1 killer...with a permanent instadown and (if you use the iri) permanent wallhacks. I love groups who don't cleanse, don't think I've ever lost to one. She also absolutely counters CoH. I like to run her with Plaything+Retribution, which means I get a ton of easy ambushes too.
Her key is 'consistency' - while Nurse can be streaky. Watch Otz's '50 wins with Nurse' video - he had a hell of a rough time. Meanwhile he managed 100 wins with Plague.
Viable at high MMR? Nurse, Blight, Plague, Spirit, Hag. In that order imho.
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@JeanCharpentier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670645#Comment_2670645
Demo and Plague, even though the changes have been welcome, cannot compete at high MMR against good coordinated survivors.
In fact, almost every killers is way too weak to be efficient at a good level.
You got Nurse and Billy that are good enough and both need hours and hours to be mastered.
Spirit is now pretty average and Blight is totally buggy.
The maps need to be reworked, there are too many tiles, windows and many are too big, map control is then totally impossible for the majority of killers.
And to go back to the main object of this discussion, i agree that BHVR is farming a negative reputation and the impact that had the last updates on the game playerbase is huge.
There are no more high MMR killers, it's pretty obvious and everyone sees it.
- High MMR survivors are facing babies, campers and tunnelers only
- As a killer you cannot play fair and win unless if you play the nurse (maybe Billy but i doubt it)
- Every streamers agree on the fact that the state of the game is terrible and many of them are burning out
- This forum is dying, many have been banned for free just because they have said something that the mod disliked
- Least but not last, the players numbers took a huge hit and we barely reach the 50k peak players on steam, unseen situation for years now
Well, you can now understand why many players (40k+) rushed the discord of another promising asymmetrical game...
Demo - sure. He still needs some love.
Plague though...Plague does fantastically at high MMR. She just has a very complicated kit that steers players towards easier and more intuitive killers.
Since boons, I'd say she's replaced Hag as the strongest 'A' tier killer in the game.
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@Chordyceps said:
The artist's slowdown perks are very cool in concept, but all but the scourge hook one are incredibly inefficient.
Grim Embrace would be a really good perk if playing fair was actually effective at all. If you try and spread out your hooks, you're most likely going to lose 3 or 4 gens before you can hook everyone once. You basically need to tunnel one person out of the game to stand any kind of chance with how huge these maps are.
Hex: Pentimento simply came out too late. If it came out before Boon totems, this would be very powerful. But unfortunately, basically no one cleanses totems anymore. They either bless them or leave them for other people to bless them.
Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance is the most useful because of it's instant gen regression on a gen you don't even have to be near. But of course it suffers from the same issues as Gift of Pain. If you're taking too long to get a down and/or you down someone and there are no scourge hooks nearby then you're just out of luck.
TLDR: Grim embrace was designed for an idyllic version of this game where playing fair is viable. Pentimento is basically useless because of the existence of boon totems. Scourge hook is really the only useful one, but could be difficult to activate due to the randomized nature of scourge hooks.
Penti is the definition of a 'what the hell were they thinking?' perk.
You have to pair it with Plaything and hope they don't just boon for it to do anything.
A perk that requires a second perk from an entirely different (paid) DLC to function is just awful.
Now, if snuffing a boon crushed the totem - honestly that just needs to happen.
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@DorkianBae said:
Would of been okay if it was just not so massive.
I can't imagine trying to play Trapper on this map though, like... Where do you even hide your traps? Lmao
I've had some success on Hag hiding them under vaults, around corners or in chokepoints.
The map doesn't feel that massive to me. It's long, but it's narrow enough to cut in half. The only area that feels a bit indulgent is the central structure.
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@BoostedKateMain said:
Literally all I get is all the one-sided maps like Badham and Fractured Cowshed and every time i'm about to get a down the survivor just uses dead hard. MMR combined with dead hard and tile strength and map size have ruined killer and it's such an awful experience. Even when you win it's not even satisfying because the match was rustrating or the survivors were just bad and it's an easy win, at least that's my experience. Can't even change my build to a new one because of the garbage mobile game style grind. Game has turned into a joke for killers and I'm surprised queues aren't through the roof for survivor.
They are through the roof. Yesterday was the exception, because a lot of people wanted to try Artist - but the day before I got through an entire episode of King of the Hill waiting for my queue to pop when I played survivor. My killer queues on the other hand seldom go above 90 seconds.
@bluedusef said:
The boons have ruined some playstyles now like hit and run, spreading pressure. they can just heal forever no limits. the new map is hot garbage to play on for killer, big and safe, hold W map. more breakable walls which slow the killer down when the game is already really fast. yikes its like the map designer is trolling.
I totally agree on boons. Overcome+CoH is just so overwhelmingly oppressive that it negates entire killer kits simply by the potential of existing in a game. Wraith is dead and even Hag is struggling. Any sort of attrition based play is now mostly pointless.
I really like the map though. It feels balanced for both sides - deadzones for sniping or chainsaws, no ridiculous psuedo-infinite loops, easy to navigate geometry and no stupid corn or rushes to obstruct vision.
It's a bit of a misery for Trapper and Hag because your traps stand out like a big spider on an ice-cream sundae, but that's true of several 'brighter' maps.
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@Iliketoplaykiller said:
I’ve been having a blast with playing SWF with friends and expected this patch to be what it was. Just cenobite nerfs and nothing other than a few perks from the artist that attempt to “slow” gens down. I’m done with playing killer 100% this time, after getting turbo games (5 mins before gens we’re powered) I think I’m done with the role and the stress it carries. Hopefully I can eventually quit this game for reals eventually but I’ll see all you other addicted survivors in the fog.
I...feel you.
Even games where you lose as survivor are substantially more relaxing than playing killer is a lot of the time. Boons...boons were a mistake.
BHVR have got a job of work ahead of them, because survivor queues just seem to get longer and longer.
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@xxshyguyxx said:
Maybe making a thread would help. I'm working her abilities, trying to get them down. What I originally thought was in order for you to down a survivor with her projectile birds they have to be swarmed.
However, I was chasing an injured Meg to a window and quickly shot a bird and it downed her. I think it just needs to be in range for it to hurt them.
Also her add-ons, the status effect while swarmed one's haven't given me much value bc the majority of them leave the gen or start running as soon as they are swarmed so being oblivious or exhausted doesn't seem to help much seeing its limited.
Her power works like this:
- You place a bird.
- You place another bird, refreshing the duration of bird 1 and so forth.
- There is a small range in front of the bird that will immediately damage on contact. Outside of this range, they just get swarmed.
- Hitting a swarmed player with another bird damages them, but swarms are too fast and easy to repel to make this reliable.
Honestly, she feels a bit on the weaker side. The hitbox of the birds feels tiny and extremely prone to validation. Her addons are also a touch 'meh'.
That said, let's see what experienced players can do with her. She might just have a massive skill floor that I have yet to reach.
Visually she's great (I'd prefer a more 'natural' looking projectile, but that's just personal preference).
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@Meg_Survivor said:
I like her sounds and her chase music! but idk how she is as a killer - I went against her twice yesterday and managed to escape both times but idk is it just me or does her power seems a little weak? Maybe its just because i dont play killer and she seems so confusing to me lol what are you guys thoughts? as far as the new map im really enjoying it! & i love the floating books in the main building
Artist: The PTB nerf hurt her more than people expected. She can't lay 'bird mines' anymore, and the swarm is far too quick and easy to repel. Her addons are also sort of meh. Let's see how things shake out though.
Map: Absolutely love it.
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@Krimbar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670616#Comment_2670616
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670616#Comment_2670616
That's what I'm talking about, changes like you've suggested for pig are so small, but could help so much. My biggest problem with the game is, that nothing is happening in that regard, we get some strange and unwanted changes to some of the killers ONCE IN A WHILE, but the rest of the killer roster hasn't even been touched much at all, obviously these things take time to implement, but right now it doesn't feel like it just takes time, it feels like it's never gonna happen.
We'll have to see.
Plague got an amazing rework, as did Demo. The changes to addons were fantastic and a few small tweaks to the basekit just made them fun to play. Demo still needs a bit of love (he really struggles in some situations, Shred is a bit too easy to juke and avoid) but both of these were well done.
Freddy was a terrible job. He probably needed a small nerf, but they also took a lot of the fun out of his addons. Ditto Slinger and Wraith.
Pig was...sigh. Shifting around a few addons just didn't help her - she still has to play extremely 'toxic' (chasing people off boxes to try and force them to instadie) because her chase is just so incredibly weak.
If Pig, Wraith, Freddy, Legion, Ghostface, PH, Twins and honestly Hag (she can be effective but 110% killers always feel so damn clumsy, which I suspect is a big reason why nobody plays her, plus her addons are crap) got Plague tier reworks, this game would be so much healthier.
@Sakurra said:
DBD is just a good game. It could be awesome, but that's impossible with toxic players. That's their big bug and they can't "fix" it. Never.
People said the same about League of Legends.
Riot introduced the Tribunal, and it was night and day. If I recall, something like 80% of toxic players reformed after their first warning, and 50% of the remainder reformed after their first ban.
Now obviously a Tribunal for DbD is just a fantasy. BHVR would likely never bite. But the key word is 'moderation'. Some more overt, and if needed heavy-handed moderation of both ingame and chat behavior (lul) would go a long way towards improving the experience for everyone.
Hell, you could even try a more 'carrot' approach, by encouraging people to use the 'thumbs up/down' feature to rate their opponents postgame and give some BP rewards when you get upvoted.
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@Smuk said:
inflating mmr on swf would just shift problem to higher elo.
SWF is just a problem itself mostly due to perk VOIP.
If all players have equal mmr, with current state of the game, its just even further away from actually being a balanced match
I disagree.
Again, it's something of an industry standard. Most games with both solo queue and premade options facing the same opponents do this exact thing.
The advantages of communication, coordination and being able to stack specific perks and addons with a map offering are enormous, and quite difficult to quantify.
Offsetting this by pairing you with a stronger opponent seems like a fair and meaningful way to counteract this, and get at least partially rid of the 'stompcomp stomping lowbies' paradigm.
It would be an interesting experiment at least.
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@xili84 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670606#Comment_2670606
Who care about people that don't stick around (most of the time)? Oh wait... BHVR does. Cause veterans already bought all the cosmetics etc.
The balancing act you are talking about is very VERY heavily in favor of one side right now. hence the queue time is so long on that end.
This...isn't how building a game is done.
If people don't stick around, then the goal becomes to get them to stick around.
Once a game loses the growth aspect and all you have are a few veterans, then your game is basically dead. Because even the most dedicated veteran will eventually burn out.
@Krimbar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670606#Comment_2670606
I fully agree with almost everything you've said, but dbd just feels different. Of course it's only the vocal majority, and even if it were the same for every game, that still means there is something wrong and should be addressed properly
I'll agree that some of the balancing decisions feel off-kilter, and that killer players in particular tend to get the greasy end of the stick - to the point where I start wondering if there's a double standard at play (killers tend to get very fast and sometimes honestly unneeded nerfs, while stuff like DS and OoO took years to get even a slight adjustment) - but I don't have all the metrics or data on hand and unfortunately I can't be a fly on the wall of balance discussion meetings.
We'll have to see what the future brings.
If BHVR start doing more substantial, Plague level buffs/reworks of clunky, unfun or just weak killers/addons (see: Pig, Legion, Ghostface, Slinger etc.) in a way that shakes up the stale meta at high MMR - that would be incredibly encouraging.
It wouldn't be too hard either. For instance, reducing Pig's TR to 24 would both feel natural and help her out immensely.
BHVR aren't villains. While I certainly disagree with some of their decisions, I do believe that - at the end of the day - they want the game to be fun for everyone. And that's a bloody difficult goal in an APvP game with an ingame community as poisonous as this one can be.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Now that only 2 chains spawn, you have to run the purple add-on, that spawns an additional chain when one breaks, just for Engineer's Fang to be as good as it was before. So from a pink that does well on its own... to a pink and a purple needed to compensate. OR you could think of it as pre-nerf Engineer's Fang but with the joke add-on, Bent Nail I believe, which spawns 1 less chain for more blood points. When a nerf turns an add-on into what was basically a joke add-on, you know it was messed up.
Engi fang is honestly still very strong. I'm astonished that it escaped mildly singed while most of his other addons got napalmed. It was the only 'problem' addon that he had (imho) and I'm still a bit salty about the bizarro nerfs.
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@Hako said:
A friend told me that you can duck under the artists crows to avoid being hit. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
I...couldn't resist.
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@Krimbar said:
I think it's safe to say that about 99% of twitter comments are either negative or "I don't care, add this"
Everyday there are new forum posts about the game being unfair/unfun or people allegedly quitting the game
It's pretty much confirmed that bhvr does not look at community feedback, at least they don't take that feedback seriously
The DDOS'ing and cheating, the controversial changes to the game, controversial statements
Yet they seem to be pretty happy with the state of the game, according to the statistics probably
y
A few things:
- I don't think I've ever seen a forum/feedback channel for a game that hasn't been predominantly negative. That's the nature of the beast. Very few people take the time to drop by and leave an 'I like this' comment, because they are generally too busy enjoying the game.
- I certainly have my gripes with the game (too many weak killers, too many killers with boring/useless addons, some survivor perks are utterly busted, maps) but it's better than it was a year ago and I'm guessing it'll be better next year too.
- 'Controversial' doesn't always mean 'bad' or 'unnecessary'.
@xili84 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670567#Comment_2670567
The problem is you take feedback from people that have no idea. People with 10 hours. Hire some actual gamers. HECK you don't even have to waste money on hiring. Listen to the top streamers, they are TRYING to help you. Anyone with over a few thousands of hours played... has a MUCH better idea than any of the other whiny people here. The fact that the vast majority of people were sad about the 7.0 patch being a joke... is a VERY GOOD direction to take feedback from.
Tricky.
You can't just take feedback from veterans, because what they want for the game (say: going back to ranks) may well make the experience substantially less pleasant for newer or more intermediate players and strangle your game's growth.
Similarly, you can't just balance around the experience of newer players (see: Wraith and Cenobite nerfs) because that results in things being squiffy for the veterans.
It's a balancing act.
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@DesignDad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2669840#Comment_2669840
As a general rule, the matchmaking system is doing the best it can with what it has to work with. By that, I mean that the limiting factor in off-peak hours is typically the players in the queue. The system is trying to match you with somebody within a pretty tight range of skill at first, but there are times where there simply aren't any other players in the queue within that range for you to match with at the moment. When this happens, the system starts expanding the acceptable ranges over time.
The basic trade off is "I can find you a match more quickly, but it might not be as balanced". We can keep the range super tight to try to enforce extremely balanced matches, but those result in pretty crazy wait times. We could also start with the range extremely open to shorten the wait times, but now the matches are all extremely unbalanced. That said, we adjust this system on the fly from time to time and take a look at how it impacts both wait times and match outcomes overall.
So most cases of "It's not updating!" or "It seems to stop working at certain times of day" are actually cases of "There just weren't any good matches in the queue for you right now". The system has no downtime, and we have yet to see any cases of improper updates (and we do check!).
With all this in mind, we are far from calling the matchmaking system perfect or done. We're still monitoring it for bugs, exploits, hiccups, and also planning general improvements. The community is a dynamic group, the game is constantly being updated, and our matchmaking is no different! One of your suspicions above is absolutely spot on, and is something we are actively looking to address. I'm reviewing a design proposal for it later today!
Love y'all talking about matchmaking so much. <3
Thanks!
I think I may be somewhat unique in this one - but I've definitely noticed an overall improvement in match quality. I am sympathetic to the complaints of high MMR players who seem to be struggling at the moment though.
A few questions, while I have you here (Dad to Dad :) )
- I understand the 'find you a match more quickly' but most of my crazier matchups have almost instant queues. Is this due to a 4man sitting in queue for ages and me just drawing the short straw?
- I've seen a fair few players (in their words) 'managing' their MMR, generally by suiciding at the end of the match. Are there any plans to help prevent/discourage smurfing?
- What would be the definition of a 'good match'? Because at least 1 match in 5 throws me up against either rather new players (don't worry, I generally ease off them once I notice) or against monsters who...sadly seldom ease off on me.
- I, personally, would not mind my wait times increasing by 50% to ensure closer matches. It's no fun to just roll over people or have to 'dial it back' and it's no fun to get pulverized by a nightmare squad. Isn't waiting in a longer queue and knowing that it's going to be an even-ish game better than waiting in a long queue and having no idea what I'm going up against?
- Are there any plants to make MMR/enemy MMR/gains and losses visible in postgame? This would allow us to find answers to so many hotly debated issues regarding MMR.
- Are there any plans to 'inflate' MMR when people play as a group (something of an industry standard) - for instance, applying a temporary, proportional multiplier to SWF groups - say 1.1x for a 2man, 1.3 for a 3man and 1.6 for a full SWF. This would go a long way to offsetting the enormous advantages coordination and information sharing provide, without 'punishing' folks for playing with their mates.
- Lastly, are there periods where the SBMM system is just entirely offline? I'll have patches characterized by near instant queues and absolutely bonkers matchups that really do make me wonder...
That all said, have a fantastic day and I appreciate the response.
PS: Buff Pig! (couldn't resist).
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@Phasmamain said:
Why would I take overcome over a third health state or sprint burst?
Because it's a defacto team-wide Sprint Burst for the cost of 1 perk slot.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2669840#Comment_2669840
I don't really mind dead squads. If I knew from start it is dead squad would be better tho, so I can prepare on it with, so that is more custom match thing for me.
But I hate survivors that use everything they can to stomp killer and they think it's because they are good and are just toxic shits.
Yeah, there are two things that makes DbD a tough sell right now. Have been trying to get the wife and 4 other chaps from our Dungeons and Dragons group to try it, but I don't want to lie to them and what always puts them off is:
- The grind.
- The ingame community.
Seriously, I don't mind losing, as long as it was somewhat even. I'd honestly rather lose an even game than win a game where I got paired up against newbies.
I can even tolerate the odd sore loser in postgame. I understand.
What always gets under my skin are the smug, gloating anuses that always run stompcomps with fully stacked perks, addons and a map offering - then have the gall to be jerks after, even though you played the game out ridiculously fairly.
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@Akumakaji said:
Got it on my third game with her, by crushing an innocent baby group. I swear, the adept achievments always force you to play your meanest way, but I guess thats the point of being ... mercieless?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FVTYWEI7LN4I/line-p2021121-071541-crow.jpg
Ugh, yeah. The hardest thing about getting an Adept for me sometimes is finding a game where people don't just DC once you start winning.
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I think I've figured out the 'trick' with Penti.
- You have to run Plaything, preferably with Retribution. Aura reading is incredible on her.
- Don't try to get to 5. You never will.
- Instead, always try to keep Penti at 2, if you can. Save dead totems for when it drops.
- 2 stacks are by far the most useful effects. 3 is...eh, 4 is nice but unrealistic.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2669737#Comment_2669737
That happens when high MMR killers stop playing...
or there is not enough of them, but I doubt that unless everyone started to lose on purpose.
Yeah it's a tough one.
This one was a 'wat' moment though, because there is literally no way that I was the closest killer to their MMR at peak.
@Leatherface1990 said:
It doesn't work/bugged lmao.
I've got some suspicions regarding the SBMM.
- The 'floors' and 'ceilings' do not apply when someone dodges a lobby, and it just grabs whoever is available.
- The system doesn't update correctly during some periods (I know if I go on a losing streak at night, I'll generally have a winning streak the next evening.
- People are still finding a way to smurf.
- There's a damn hack that can fiddle with your MMR.
- It has some sort of daily 'maintenance' period, where it's totally offline.
Would really appreciate some more transparency from BHVR on this stuff.
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@GenJockeyNance said:
A question for killers and survivors alike. Although I guess for killers: have you had a good roll then this boon perk wrecked your snowball? I can only imagine this perk would only really get value from slug heavy killers such as Oni, Plague, Twins. But yeah, Is the perk even getting any value or is it just one of the many perks that won't be selected in the perk loadouts? What's your current opinion on the Boon: Expedition (is that what's it's called? I dunno I haven't gotten to check out the new chapter today including perks)? Why would or wouldn't you choose it over Unbreakable?
Yes.
But it's relies on them not just booning the hell out of all your totems the second they know penti is in play and not just popping them the second you move away. Which...yeah, it's a badly thought out perk.
What's most annoying about it though is the fact that it's almost entirely useless, unless you pair it with another perk from a paid DLC.
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@themoobs1984 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/297420/sbmm-sometimes-i-wonder-what-youre-thinking
Always skip those lobbies if you even have an iota of a clue it's an SWF.
The annoying thing - I've actually had some brilliant games versus SWFs recently. My favorite was 4 players all in themed outfits, around 400 hours played a piece, who gave me a 30 minute slugfest of a game, and ended up with 2 dead, two dead on hook and us all adding each other postgame. Probably the closest and most exciting game I've ever played in DbD.
But yeah...I'm just going to have to start dodging lobbies where there are already 4 players waiting - because clearly someone dodged it and for a reason.
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@Ghouled_Mojo said:
I hate the new map. I hope it gets removed. I know it won’t but we all have to have our hopes.
Really?
What aspects don't you like?
I'm...actually a fan. It's absolutely gorgeous for a start, it has nice open deadzones for certain killers and chokepoints for others. There's room for a 3gen and there's a lack of silly strong loops.
On the survivor end, gens aren't absolutely obnoxious to find and there is plenty of safety in the central structure.
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@KeiOrtem said:
So it seems that we are once again with a new map, however just like the majority of the previous ones. They are just too big, I had lethal one my demo and I had to squint to see the auras as they were so tiny when I loaded into the map. I cant tell if its as big or even bigger than mothers dwelling but boy is it rough. I dont understand why maps need to be so huge when theres quite a few killers that dont have movement(IE: nurse, spirit, etc) Not to mention that survivors can easily see me from far away so the moment they see the demoboi stomping their way then they take off running before I can even get there.
It's...okay.
It is large, but it's not especially dense - outside of the main central structure, which is a bit of a mess.
Loops aren't horrible (at least none I've seen thus far) and it's visually stunning. Honestly, it's probably going to join Yamaoka on my 'good, balanced' maps list.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
I don’t know if it’s just me but Artist is not as good as everyone makes her out to be. Holding W cripples this killer badly and the genrush sweat squads ######### annihilate her she doesn’t need nerfs
Yep.
The PTB nerf hurt her quite a bit - she can no longer lay 'bird mines', all that will happen is they'll get swarmed (which never lasts long enough).
She's fun at least, and hopefully won't end up getting rocked by nerfs.