ad19970
ad19970
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@Yamalive said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118934#Comment_4118934
What a great foundation, making up an "opinion" on behalf of two games. The general concensus is that Judgement is far to oppressive right now. And its more than once elaborated why. So stop making hot takes without any proper arguments.
Where do you have that general consensus from? People agreed she was too strong when she got those last two buffs, but those have been reverted again.
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I have to disagree. Giving her a curve outside of zealous was just too much, and made her op. I am very happy they reverted that buff, now she feels more balanced again and there is more reason for the Judgment to activate zealous.
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I feel like beyond the data BHVR had, there was also a lot of feedback that those last two buffs were just entirely unnecessary, and shouldn't have happened. She was already strong, the last two buffs just tipped her over the edge of being op. I am very happy they nerfed her back to how she was before the hotfix.
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I don't see it. Stake Out's 4% progress sounds big, and it kind of is, but it's balanced by the fact that you have to be within 24 meters range of the killer for 15 seconds to get one token.
Road Life will be good, but I doubt it will be op. Repairing gens injured is a risk, so having that pay out after hitting 4 great skill checks is fair in my opinion. 8 seconds is fast, but I don't think it will be problematic because of the activation condition. I want to see more perk variety, so I don't think nerfing these perks, at least from ptb to live, would be a wise decision.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114997#Comment_4114997
There are not enough people who like the design of the killer unless you live in the echo chamber that is the dbd forums full of 5 hour killer players.
Oh yeah I could literally record plenty of matches right now and demonstrate why the judgements power is incredibly unfair. Do you want to see some examples and demonstrations of what I'm talking about? Once again though you keep saying you've come to the conclusion it has fair counterplay based on literally NOTHING with NO proof, and I've offered for you to show me once in a custom, but like everyone who seems to argue judgement is fair, you don't actually have the balls to come to a custom match or show some videos demonstrating it or anything. It's all a bunch of big talk with nothing to back it up.
The problem with this killer is the SOLE reliance on an UNHEALTHY type of guesswork. This killer relies on pure 50/50s that completely ignore survivor skill, it doesn't matter whether you have 5 hours or 5000 hours it's all irrelevant against this killer, which is precisely the problem. It ignores all skill expression from the survivor side.
I know this is a very late reply, but I don't care.
And no, I doubt it's only killer mains within the dbd forums that enjoy going against this killer. I have seen many posts on reddit for example that have said they enjoy going against judgment.
I have come to the conclusion that Judgment is fair the same way you have come to the conclusion she isn't, through experience with the game and looking at the numbers of the power and everything surrounding the power. So I am still convinced that Judgment indeed has counterplay, even when she is in zealous.
But if you have demonstrations of what you are talking about, I'd gladly watch them.
One thing is for sure though, the reason people don't want to go in a custom match is because they don't want to put up with setting something like that up and waste their time. It has nothing to do with having the balls or not lmao. Not to mention you are coming off as a bit hostile towards people that don't agree with you, so who would really want to get in contact with you to set up custom matches?
And as I said, every time I would manage to dodge your beam, you would most likely just blame it on missing with the beam.
Your last paragraph holds some truth. Dodging the beam is also somewhat luck dependent, as it does often come down to 50/50s, at least when Judgment is in zealous. But there sure as hell still is a difference between a 5 hour survivor and a 5000 hour survivor going against the Judgment. Also, saying that the beam is a 50/50 contradicts the argument that Judgment has no counterplay, because 50/50s mean survivors have a 50% chance at counterplaying the beam. Whether it's luck based or not is irelevant to the question whether Judgment has counterplay or not.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117983#Comment_4117983
Cool but I didn't ask for advice and that has nothing to do with what you said. We're talking about the very important issue of video game anxiety, and if we're going to defend bad designs over it then it needs to go both ways. I suggest we have a survivor with basekit permaElusive. The idea that the killer can see my aura gives me such bad anxiety. And they might be following my scratch marks too. How anxiety-inducing! This survivor should also have baskeit 20% gen speed and door opening increase, because the longer I'm trapped in the match with this anxiety-inducing murderer the worse my anxiety gets! Also, the very idea of hanging off a meat hook gives me peak anxiety, so I think this survivor should also get basekit DS every time they're picked up. I think that's a good solution and if you don't have anxiety you can just play a normal survivor, i guess. It's not uncounterable either because if you manage to find and down this survivor you can just slug them. Fun, fair, and balanced!
I am not going to defend the logic of the person you replied too, since it makes no sense to me, a killer shouldn't be op just so that people don't have to fear killer anxiety. But Judgment being badly designed is entirely subjective, and I have seen a lot of people also say they enjoy going against Judgment.
I personally think she is very well designed, and quite interactive.
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To me Judgment is an amazing killer, at least now that they reverted her buffs of the last patch. I enjoy going against her a lot. She keeps you on your toes the entire time and chases against her are very fun.
I still wonder if she should not be able to see auras while controlling the beam, but I fear that would maybe reduce perk variety for her, and I am not sure if the aura builds really are that op on her.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114871#Comment_4114871
Come show me in a custom game if you don't think the forums are a good means.
If you don't think you are the best survivor then even find a good survivor who can or someone who has demonstrated solid counterplay to a good judgement.
The problem is there are literally NO examples of gameplay that ANYONE can point to, and not one person has had the guts to try and counter my judgment first hand or anything. It's people talking out of their ass.
Also you admitted that this killer is complete guesswork when you said survivors should have to predict everytime they wan't to dodge. That is part of the list of problems with this killer, the RELIANCE on guesswork.
Can you point out any examples of matches where the survivors never had any chance to dodge the beam? Because I think you will not be able to do so either. I am sure if I'd watch some very good Judgment players that I would however see survivors dodge the beam multiple times as well, even in close calls. But then you would just say that it's the killer that missed, even if it wasn't the reason the survivor dodged.
So what we are left with is the analysation of the power itself. And when doing so, I come to the clear conclusion that the beam always has counterplay. Whether it's enough or not is of course subjective, as that is not measureable, but it certainly does have counterplay.
And yes, this killers counterplay is based on guesswork, or better said, prediction. Pretty much the entirety of DBD's counterplay is based on prediction. You always have to try and predict what the opposing side will do. Because if one side could just always react to what the opposing side does, then the opposing side would have no counterplay against the other side.
If survivors could just react to the beam and always dodge it that way, who the hell would still want to play Judgment? So that is certainly not part of the list of problems that Judgment has.
Honestly I don't know what to tell you any more. You don't like the design decisions of this killer, and that's fine. But there are enough people that do like the new killer, and if you are waiting for some apology or justification from BHVR, you're going to wait for a long time. Because objectively, there is nothing particularly wrong with the killer. Maybe they will get a small nerf or two in the future, but I wouldn't expect any big changes.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114734#Comment_4114734
Gonna start of by saying if you think judgement has a fair amount of counter play for survivors can you demonstrate this please? Preferably in a custom lobby with be but even video demonstrations would be great. Because I have a feeling you haven't actually played much or any survivor against his killer.
What you've said about judgements aiming power and second delay etc is true but its hardly relevant/hardly a limiting factor for this killer. What you've not done in ur analysis is account for all the variables that make it CONSIDERABLY harder to dodge on the survivors end than aiming as killer. These include movement delays survivors have, the fact they can only dodge on one axis, limiting their ability to move in confusing or smart directions, the fact that the beam is rather HUGE and survivors hitboxes also extend the potential hitbox of the beam, the fact that survivors also play on PING and have no chance of reacting to the beam EVER unless the killer does a horrrific shot. 0.3 Seconds is NO time to completely change the direction of movement as a survivor not withstanding hitboxes, and OBSTACLES that survivors have to worry about that the killer literally doesn't.
What you've said about nurse getting 2 blinks and being able to reposition easier is true, she does get 2 changes to reposition, HOWEVER she can't just do that across the whole map, she needs to be very close to reliably do this, which cannot be said about judgement. None of that also negates or overpowers the facts I told you previously about nurse being 95% ms, having to predict survivors movement on 2 planes of relativity and having long visibility reducing fatigue's every time she uses her power, none of which judgement has to deal with. Much better trade for the judgement if you balance these factors accordingly.
This is not even going into all of the other toxic and unhealthy elements of this killer.
I have in fact gone against many Judgments already, luckily. And I have always had fun against them, no matter how good or bad they were. I definitely also had some close dodges that indicate to me that she does have some counterplay.
More importantly though, I am pretty sure from playing as her, as well as looking at her ability, that she does indeed have counterplay. Which I already explained. The delay of the beam is 0.3 seconds, in that time survivors cover a distance of 1.2 meters. Meanwhile the beam only has a radius of 0.6 meters, or 0.66 meters. I get that survivors have some momentum loss when changing directions, at least those that are more than 90 degrees, but I am pretty confident that there is still enough time for survivors to dodge the beam despite that.
In the end, as the Judgment, you have to predict the survivors movement. And that means survivors can also predict the killers aim, and dodge the beam.
Now if you argue that the beam doesn't have enough counterplay, i.e. the likeliness of dodging the beam in zealous form isn't high enough, that I can understand. I don't think I agree, at least not for now, but I can understand that. But the beam does have counterplay, especially outside of zealous.
Also, I have been clipped by beams and didn't take damage, so I am pretty sure the hitbox here is not a problem. Not against normal ping killers at least. And I am pretty positive the survivors can not only dodge on one axis.
And survivors shouldn't be able to react to the beam, they should have to predict it. Otherwise, good survivors could always react to the beam and always dodge it, rendering the killer useless against good survivors.
When it comes to the counterplay of breaking line of sight, I already explained why I think it's more effective against Judgment than Nurse. You are right that she doesn't have as much range as Judgment though, but that doesn't really affect the breaking line of sight counterplay much. And I do believe that survivors can dodge the beam on two axis, as survivors can try and run through the beam right before it starts doing damage. It's true that Nurse has to endure fatigue and move at 95%, but in my opinion that doesn't outweigh the downsides of Judgment when it comes to breaking line of sight.
Now I don't think I can demonstrate this on the forums though. For one, if I showed a video of me dodging beams against a Judgment, you would probably be of the opinion that the Juddment just missed and that's it. And I am also not the best survivor anyways.
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Agree with both points here. When it comes to aura reading, I am not sure yet whether its op on her or not, but I can see why it can be frustrating to go against. My suggestion would have been to give her blindness while she holds her power. That would not make aura reading useless on her, but she couldn't pinpoint survivors location all the time while holding and releasing her power.
The second point I agree with even more. It would be nice if there was some kind of logic that made survivors spawn away from the killer as far as possible when being saved from the exile.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114560#Comment_4114560
First of all they literally buffed it to 0.6 seconds a few days ago for some strange reason, are you saying the devs lied about this change or just ######### it up?
Even if what you are saying is true it doesn't change the fact that a redirect window is still insane. The speed that the beam travels at 0.3 seconds is MORE than enough time to redirect it to react to a dodge. You could even do the maths on this to demonstrate it.
Just because you can see the attack coming SOMETIMES doesn't translate into dodging or "counterplay". You need to account for the insane width and speed of the beam, as well as the terrible survivor movement acceleration values, huge hitboxes of survivors and literally any single obstacle on the map that decreases the ability to dodge.
Breaking line of sight is much harder against this killer than nurse for an infinite number of reasons. Nurse is SLOWER than survivors, this killer is 110. Nurse has HUGE fatigue windows where she can't see properly and can barely move. There are also a crazy amount of aura perks and addons available to this killer. ONTOP OF THIS, nurse has to predict survivors location in 2 axis. X and Y. Judgement only needs to predict survivors movement in ONE axis, something that is INFINITELY easier to do.You can't double back a judgement, only guess left or right ASSUMING that the killer doesn't even try to hit you in a creative way or is terrible at timing the power. Like how many more physical pieces of evidence do you need to see it.
Once again having a clunky or weird power to use or get used to IS NOT THE SAME AS DIFFICULT. Case and point the Krasue. Judgement also doesn't take alot of skill. She's been out for less than TWO WEEKS and people have already figured out the best way to play her and are STOMPING people. I dont remember blight stomping people in less than 2 weeks on release, people thought he was bad because he ACTUALLY had a high skill ceiling. Same with Wesker.
They buffed the curve window when you use the beam right away, so when the activation delay of the beam is still at it's highest.But when they delay is at it's lowest, the curve window is still 0.3 seconds. Not sure if this is intended and was just communicated poorly, or if this is a bug, but I sure do hope it's intended, and that the devs realise that a curve window of 0.6 seconds for a beam that starts damaging after 0.3 seconds would be too strong.
And no, if the survivor dodges at the right time, you won't be able to react to the survivors movement with the curve window of 0.3 seconds in order to always to get a hit. This is because on top of the reaction time of the killer player, there is a small delay between aiming the beam, and the beam actually following your aim. It's like you are pulling the beam with your aim, instead of the beam being exactly where you aim it at. If Henry had some kind of 0.3 second adjustment time on his vine attacks, then those would probably be undodgeable.
So if you time your dodge right, and make the right read, you can dodge the beam.
I would have also argued that breaking line of sight is more effective counterplay against Judgment than against Nurse, for multiple reasons. For one, Nurse is constantly repositioning herself during chase, meaning even if she misses, she most likely gets into a position where it's harder for the survivor to break line of sight. Judgment doesn't do that, as a survivor, you mostly keep the distance you have to her after she uses her beam.
And Nurse has 2 blinks, she can reposition herself with the first blink, so it's often times enough when she just gains line of sight on the survivor after her first blink. Not to mention she has to be less precise because she has 2 blinks and a lunge out of her blinks. Judgment on the other hand has to be more precise with her beam, as it only has a radius of 0.6 meters, or 0.66 meters while in zealous.
And survivors can dodge the beam by doubling back into the beam as well, if they time it right. That's because of the 0.3 second delay of the beam before it starts damaging. In fact, some survivors try to run towards the beam while the Judgment is redirecting the beam towards the survivor and doesn't have line of sight on the survivor during that time. Which also brings me to the last point. While Nurse has fatigue, the Judgment sometimes has to look away from the survivor in order to charge up the beam for long enough, to then hit survivors at closer range, which also opens up counterplay against the Judgment.
So as you can see, I am confident that Judgment has a good amount of counterplay for survivors. Now this doesn't fully answer the question whether she is op or not, because other factors, such as the cooldown of her power, also contribute to that question. But she certainly does have counterplay.
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@ReviveMeMaybe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114536#Comment_4114536
Counterplay can exist and still demand too much to be enjoyable in casual solo queue. I understand what her mechanics require. The Judgment asks four strangers to maintain constant focus and follow the same strict routine without comms, because one person’s mistake can snowball across the whole team.
I come home after work to relax and play. I shouldn’t have to treat each match like tournament practice for the game to feel playable. Calling that “not wanting to learn” ignores the point of my post.
I would argue that Judgment requiring survivors to treat matches like tournament practice is vastly exaggerated. You just need more awareness and attention against her than against most killer, but it's not that crazy. At least I never felt like I had to put so much effort into the match when going against her.
I think you are making her out to be more comlpex than she actually is. If you don't find her fun, that's completely understandable and fine. But I know that a lot of people do enjoy going against her as well. She is certainly one of the harder killers to counterplay as a team, and arguably even in chase, but she is also quite hard to play as well, which evens that out.
I do think this might also be a result of the mmr reset, you might be going against Judgments that have much more experience than you in the game.
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I think she is perfect as is. If they would reduce the delay when not holding the power for long, that would just make hitting survivors that are close to you too easy in my opinion.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114475#Comment_4114475
This is straight up a bunch of lies.
Once she becomes zealous, her beam is UNDODGABLE. Unless your tragically bad at using the power or making really really stupid mistakes the 0.6 second window to change its direction means you simply let go of the attack a couple meteres before the survivor and change its direction if they dodge. It's literally a honing missile that you guide. Even before you get the zealous power, which is pretty much only for the first chase each game as you will have it permanently up for the rest of the game, its at minimum a 50/50 as to whether you get a hit. Combine the extremely low cool down and you will just down them eventually even if it takes 2 or 3 shots.
The judgement does not take much skill. You are confusing a killer with a weird/unusual power to use for difficulty. Weird and different is not the same as difficult. Her power is rather easy to use once you get used to the weird aspect, which took me about 5 games at most, and then you simply charge your power backwards, aim to the survivor and tap when its nearly on top of them. It's not that hard. The skill of the survivor is also irrelevant regarding how fast they go down because its on YOU to miss. It's far more difficult to play a killer who DOESN'T ignore half of survivors perks, has to understand how HOOKS work, has to understand how CHASES and TILES and LOOPS work and who doesn't ignore nearly every element of the game that other killers abide by. It's basically a separate game that anyone can learn, doesn't matter if you've never played killer or are an expert.
If you think it is at all reliably dodgable whilst zealous I have a bridge to sell you and a custom lobby waiting.
The 0.6 second curve window is a lie. It only applies when the delay is still at maximum, if you hold the power long enough for the delay to only be 0.3 seconds, the curve window is also 0.3 seconds, I tested it and am pretty sure this is how it works. Not sure if this is intended or a bug (I really hope it's intended, because the beam does NOT need a buff), but at the moment, the beam can always be dodged if you make the right read as survivor. Now if they ever make it so the beam can be curved for 0.6 seconds, even with a minimum damage delay after activation of 0.3 seconds, then you might be right that survivors have no counterplay.
But right now, if the survivor makes the right read at the right time, they can dodge the beam. And outside of zealous, it isn't always a 50/50. Especially when the survivor breaks line of sight, they have higher chances of dodging the beam than getting hit by it, at least in most cases.
And no, Judgment does take a lot of skill in general. Just because you didn't find her hard doesn't mean that applies to everyone. She is definitely one of the more skillfull killers in the game. With aura reading less so, but even with aura reading she isn't that easy to play. And as explained, the skill of the survivor at the moment is not irrelevant.
If you despise going against the Judgment that is totally fine. Everyone has killers they dislike going against. But that doesn't mean everyone feels that way, I for one love going against her.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114475#Comment_4114475
That's how both sides have counterplay against each other.
Would not call it counterplay. This is a guessing game, nothing more.
since it undermines the skill that Judgment takes
The skill Judgment takes is way lower than expected with Aura Reading. On the PTB I also thought that Judgment will be a very skill-demanding Killer, but her skill requirement is really low if you slap on Aura Read. (Which does not even come as such a high cost, considering that Hook-related Perks dont work on her, so it is not like you have to make that big of a choice)
Not saying that the skill is 0, but it is certainly not much.
@Topic:
The Devs wanted the "Community Chapter" to be a strong Killer. Obviously only for the Killer side, the Survivor is unpopular with bad Perks. But the Killer is very strong and not that hard to play.
IMO the Devs knew exactly what they were doing and it is 100% intentional. They also buffed A Nurses Calling to work on slugs again, and it works perfectly with Judgment.
How would you define counterplay then? Of course that is counterplay, that is literally how both sides have counterplay.
You have to try and predict what the other side will do. If you could react to what the other side does, then the other side wouldn't have any counterplay against you because with good enough reaction you could always counterplay the opposing side.
This gameplay has to be prediction based or one side will end up with now counterplay against good players.
Also, I do get that aura reading makes this killer easier, but I wouldn't say she is easy to play even with aura reading. Not that hard, but still challenging enough.
Edit: Also by your logic everyone should be playing Judgment at the moment, but from what I have seen, many people have been actually claiming to see the new killer very rarely.
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I mean what you say here is just not true. No matter how good the Judgment, there is always a chance to dodge the beam at the moment. You just have to predict the aim trajectory of the beam properly and then you can dodge the beam. If however the Judgment aims well and predicts your movement properly, they will get a hit against you. That's how both sides have counterplay against each other.
But yes, the beam can always be dodged if you as the survivor make the right read.
Also, saying that the Judgment doesn't have any counterplay unless the player is completely new is also such an exaggeration on top of being false, since it undermines the skill that Judgment takes. Not saying Judgment is the hardest thing to ever grace a pvp game, certainly not, but playing Judgment is not easy either.
I can still see an argument for her being a tad op at the moment, due to her low power cooldown and/or aura reading potential. But to say she is completely unfair to go against because she has no counterplay is just not true. She still has to predict survivors movements in order to get a hit, which means survivors can also make the right predictions and dodge the beam.
Edit: I also haven't had many survivors give up in my matches yet at all. Most of them do realise there is counterplay I believe.
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@CosmicScarab said:
Yeah, she's very rare, and it's not surprising after having played her. You have to put in an incredible amount of effort for what honestly, isn't that great of a reward when you compare to other killers who require much less effort.
Her chases up close are incredibly unintuitive and clunky so most people who enjoy chase killers are going to drop her and her sniping is very telegraphed so I can't imagine people will stick around for that either as people learn they can walk sideways slightly and avoid it.I disagree that her reward isn't that great. if you can get good with her, she is definitely a strong killer. Not op, not uncounterable, and she shouldn't be, but she is no doubt strong.
It does take some time to get good with her though, that's true. But I don't think that's a bad thing. Killers with higher skill floors and skill ceilings are nice to have as well.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
I've played her a few games, and I'm starting to think she might be the strongest killer in the game.
My opinion may change as MMR adjusts and survivors learn counterplay, but right now I feel like I have constant map-wide pressure running Thrill, Ruin, Retribution, and Surveillance with aura reading add-ons.
I've had multiple games where I have 3 slugged in the first minute.I doubt she'll be stronger than Nurse. Seems like a good A tier killer to me. But totem builds might become a bit of a problem with her? I don't know. Maybe she shouldn't get reduced cooldown in her zealous mode.
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She is just hard to use I would argue, but to me she seems like a solid A tier killer. No mobility but great chase potential and some solid range. Give it time and you'll get some good Judgements as well that will really challenge you.
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I think if this does get too strong a small cooldown increase would do the trick. Or just have the cooldown be based on how many gens are left.
But honestly, atm, I don't see her being stronger at 3 genning than some of the other killers, especially Doc or Singu. It will take some time to finish the last gen but it should be doable in my experience.
But of course, too early to tell for sure.
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@Yamalive said:
Playing against it is really boring though. Its literally just running open fiel to dodge. As soon as you move into clutter youre dead or zoned.
Really? I've been having lots of fun against her. Trying to constantly dodge her beams is pretty engaging if you ask me. And I don't think her zoning potential is particularly great.
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@hlambda said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091090#Comment_4091090
No you're actually the one triggered by my comment on your game style. The same goes for you…you can't handle the truth or my opinion…IDC which you choose at this point.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091064#Comment_4091064
Can't quote properly you said. Let's be tit for tat so I poked at your grammar…not that difficult to assess…
All I hear is you supporting that this killer isn't overpowered, and I think you're absolutely wrong and that is based on your subjective gameplay and experience. Now I am sorry I had to make a quick assessment of your gaming aptitude when you speak with authority.
The truth is survivors are getting gutted. No more exhaust perks allowed at the highest level of gameplay, but you refuse to recognize it and just simply say "Oh, he's just A tier at best" without actually commenting on the mechanics. No supporting evidence or reasoning, so why should anyone take you seriously…because you have more posts? That's what you're banking on.
Let me know when you get 7k posts buddy.I mean you are banned now so you probably won't even read this, but whatever.
But pretty much everything you are saying here is just flat out wrong, and I don't get how you can't see that. I can in fact handle other people's opinions, shown by the fact that I never got offensive towards anyone because of their differing opinions. I just got offensive towards you because the way you were acting.
If you think Jason is op, that's fine, but I disagree. And no, I also don't see how survivors are getting gutted.
I also think it's hilarious that you are accusing me of not having any proper arguments, or evidence, or not commenting on the mechanics, even though you are doing the exact same. No arguments, no "facts" or "evidence" as to why your opinion would be the objective truth, you just got offensive and that's it.
I am also not sure when I ever banked on my amount of posts, since I never mention them in any reply. But I guess this is in line with your general reading comprehension skills. I also don't need anyone to take me more seriously than anyone else on these forums. But at least I can have a discussion about balance without getting offended by differing opinions.
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@hlambda said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091080#Comment_4091080
From the guy who needs to analyze sentences and how people respond…maybe get your to, too, and twos in order. I am getting off before I become like you detestable human where your only interaction is on a forum.
Jesus, now you are actually going for my writing mistakes. This is becoming more and more amusing. Also not sure when I analyzed any sentences, but I guess just reading what other people wrote seems like analyzing to someone as stupid as you.
But good idea, you probably generally need some time off the internet when other people can trigger you so easily with different opinions.
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@TropesDaMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091080#Comment_4091080
im convinced its just rage bait at this point
Very possible. But honestly it can still be amusing to converse with such people. And to be fair, people getting offensive over other people's opinions is not something incredibly rare or anything, especially among gaming communities.
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@hlambda said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091068#Comment_4091068
I'm just poking you, you just keep on with the diatribes and the paragraphs…haha. Got'em. And guess what…if I get banned on this forum….oh man the humanity~~~
Yeah I mean posting a few sentences isn't really that time consuming. And admittedily, I always find it interesting to converse on the internet with people like you that seem to stupid to be true.
In the end you are the one with the problem if you get triggered by differing opinions so easily.
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@hlambda said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091064#Comment_4091064
Clearly you do because thats why you have spent 114 hours to discuss about a game and have no life about it instead of playing it.
Did you just argue I care about what you think of me because I have so many posts on these forums? Or am I misunderstanding you here? Because I am pretty sure those 6k posts I have weren't ever about you.
Also, considering you are the one who got all personal because I have a different opinion than you on a killer in DBD, I'd say you are the one without a life taking this game maybe a bit too serious. Just because I have made many posts among the many past years on these forums doesn't mean I am wasting my time not playing the game.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091036#Comment_4091036
No individual part of his kit is oppressive, but together with a good build he's insane. Easily rivals hillbilly (another s tier killer).
I can see why people would think that, Jason does have a lot going for him, I just personally don't quite agree with his kit being S tier. He has a lot of positives in his kit but survivors still also have quite a bit of counterplay against Jason.
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@hlambda said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091024#Comment_4091024
I am sorry, was there an opinion on these stats? Also, why should anyone take your opinions seriously when it's based on your relevant gameplay. You actually want me to take you seriously and not the other way around because I am being "rude" when I called you out on your level of play. Some people are touchy.
Again I am guessing you wanted to reply to me? Seems like you aren't even able to quote people properly.
Not even sure what you are trying to say with that second sentence. I simply post comments on these forums to have discussions, mainly about the balance of the game, and give my feedback about the game. Of course I would never expect the devs to only listen to me, or people like me, that would be stupid.
Also, I really don't care whether you take me seriously or not. You are clearly not the type of person I would ever listen to or care about. I just find it interesting how butthurt some people get over other people's opinions, and called you out on it.
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I personally don't see the comparison to Krasue. Krause at release had 0 counterplay in chase, Jason has quite a bit of counterplay actually.
Also I haven't seen too much of an outcry yet myself. Only on these forums do more people seem to agree that Jason is op.
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@TropesDaMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091038#Comment_4091038
this guy made fun of people with high post counts in another post saying we basically are the ones stooping devs from looking at those with lower counts. dont listen to him
Yeah seems like quite the bitter person who can't deal with other people maybe having different opinions than them.
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@hlambda said:
6825 posts…jeez louise…those take at least a min…so minimum of 114 hrs of typing away….jeez you really gotta let us know huh.
I am guessing you are talking about me? If so, I have no idea what my post count has anything to do with this discussion. Those are just posts I made on these forums over many years, discussing all kinds of things regarding DBD.
And is this like all you got intellectually? Just attacking people personally as soon as they express an opinion you don't like?
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090979#Comment_4090979
He's s tier. Easily.
Right now, he has decent mobility, info, a ranged attack that also has a Mori for free.
And the nerf you've suggested is A) useless and B) doesn't stop the issues people reasonably have with him.
You can stop him getting info by crouching. Even without red mist you can hear people.
The real nerfs he needs are:
Increased power cd, decreased haste duration and less scrap piles to force him to rely on hooks more and punish him missing his ranged attack.
Then he'd be a low a tier killer. Still strong, but not busted.
I have to disagree with that. Omnipresent mode is definitely good, just like his chase, but none of it is too oppressive in my opinion. There is enough counterplay to Jason.
The nerf I suggested is just to keep hex builds on him in check. Because I don't really believe he needs any other nerfs.
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@hlambda said:
You mean your B Tier Skilled mechanics with an S tier killer averages to A tier killer. That makes more sense.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090979#Comment_4090979
Again, I stress that most of you guys are S tier yappers because you post a lot and believe you have the authority to speak from experience…when you just are that…yappers…
Lmao what? I am an S tier yapper? What exactly does that even mean? If you think I only play killers that are S tier, and want all killers to be S tier, then you are mistaking quite heavily. I also doubt that Jason is S tier.
But I do want killers to be actually strong. Especially currently with most maps spawning a lot of pallets.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090341#Comment_4090341
The problem is how close he gets to spawn to you. He can spawn extremely close to people on gens. Like look at this screenshot, for example.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6HQ7DJMRTVFA/20260619175332-1.jpg
I don't care how good of a looper you are. If Jason teleports to that pallet next to me and I'm injured, I'm dead. He just gets to start the chase in way too favorable of a position. If I were injured here, this is the kind of situation where I'd need to play passively.
Pretty sure in the situation in your image, you would have enough time to get to the window before Jason would catch up to you, if you react fast enough to Jason appearing at the pallet. Though you probably would have to repair the gen from the other side to do so. But there is a bit of time between the mist showing where Jason will spawn and him being able to move.
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I personally have to agree, Devour Hope is my personal hate perk on the killers side. It just doesn't feel good to lose to a killer with this perk.
The perk either does baiscally nothing or it wins you the entire match, and I absolutely hate that.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090461#Comment_4090461
Id agree if some parts of his kit didn't allow for much counterplay, when placed all together it makes him strong and boring.
As said in a lot of other posts, his power cd should be increased, his haste needs to be decreased in time its active and his scrap piles need to be fewer. Aside from that i enjoy both playing as and against him.
That sounds like serious overkill for Jason. To me he seems like a solid A tier killer, and A tier killers don't really need to be nerfed in any impactful way. The only nerf I would suggest is him not being able to see survivors in Omnipresent Evil when they work on totems. And maybe a very small cooldown increase for his Omnipresent Evil mode.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4087021#Comment_4087021
But also remember the community voted for a straight firing continuous beam which sounded pretty busted, they made it and went "yea this is kinda busted so how about this kinda beam instead?"
Oh ok that I didn't know. I think I really need to check out what her current power looks like.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4087018#Comment_4087018
It is unique i just meant the community has also alredy called it range slop or antiloop slop or henry 2.0 and stuff when they showed the first videos of it.
Ah ok. I mean anti-loop can be a lot of things, and killers kind of need some form of anti-loop in this game, at least in most cases. So I for one am quite excited for that killer.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
The community voted chapter is a big example. For survivor they voted for something they don't want to use, just something we don't have alredy, so they want something unique but don't want to use it. For killer they voted for something unique but made sure the power was basic antiloop cuz thats what theyd want to play lol
I thought the power of the community voted killer looked pretty unique. Having to control the projectile while it's being sent out. Unless the power has changed and isn't that what I think it is anymore.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086674#Comment_4086674
If you disregard all testing in the PTB because it's "not real matches" then that defeats a lot of the point of the PTB. Part of the PTB is for power level testing.
No need to be so aggressive. I didn't dismiss anything. You dismissed people because of assumptions and because they cared about things you didn't.
My personal tier lists are based on my own testing. So if it's my own testing I get dismissed because we need the communities opinion and if it's based on CC's we also need the communities opinion. So in other words any opinions from the PTB are completely invalid. Gotcha. This is dismissing a lot of the PTB's intent.
"BHVR will buff or nerf him if he needs it."
Again their track record shows this is not the case and I didn't get examples of otherwise. I got Blight, which is valid and Lich 2 years later. That's it.
To be fair there aren't many examples of BHVR buffing killers after release because there didn't need to be many. Among the more recent killer roster, The First, Krasue, Springtrap, Ghoul, Dracula, Chucky and Xenomorph all released in a fairly strong or really strong state. With Houndmaster being a good example of a killer that did receive buffs very quickly after release.
And if we want to count killers that got buffed from ptb to live, because there was feedback that they might be too weak, Krasue was giga buffed to a ridiculous state, Ghoul got buffed, just like Dracula. Plus after his release, Dracula got some nice buffs as well in a patch shortly after his release.
Unknown is the most recent killer that to this day is arguably just ok and nothing more. And DnD Vecna needed to wait a bit for his buffs, although he always did get some nerfs alongside those buffs as well.
So I would argue BHVR's track record when it comes to killer balance within the last few years has been quite good, at least when looking at the killers that released during that time. Of course there is no denying that BHVR is still too slow when it comes to killer balance, or balance in general.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
To be clear, Pallet Density should have been designed to fill in the specific deadzones of certain maps. Not create "The Game" for most maps.
Agreed. Pallet density definitely needed a buff, but BHVR went a bit too far. If they just reduce the current pallet density a little bit, I think maps will be in a perfect spot. At least those maps that don't have other design problems. But what they shouldn't do is revert the latest pallet density update, or we'll just end up with some maps that have too many deadzones again.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055090#Comment_4055090
Nope, not true, they dont have enough speed to get out. They need 5% haste to do so.
The mechanical delay is 0.6 seconds after you locked the attack in, but the visual delay and potential desync isnt. If you visually see you're in the center, you cant dodge. Same is true for the underworld attack, you have to shift+W the moment you see him come towards you, otherwise you dont get out. And that's assuming you have a straight path.
He needs a lullaby for his underworld mode, like Spirit, but like 8 meters distance at best (just to compensate for closed corners), and his vine needs to be more visual from the start.
Other than that, by far my biggest complaint is the clock mechanic. If it worked a bit more like Freddy, where you're immune/resistant to it for some time if you helped remove it, it would already be so much better. Right now, it doesnt really matter if you do it or not. You need to be a good SWF to use it properly, but a good swf with comms should not be standard.Well I am pretty sure it's at least intended that the visual queue happens 0.6 seconds before the vine attack actually damages. If not, then that seems to be a bug, or lag.
But it doesn't change the fact that if a Vecna places a vine attack with the survivor right in the center of it, that the survivor just has to hold w to dodge the attack. That's why Vecna players always have to place it a bit ahead of the survivor.
The Undergate attack is particularly dodgeable in my experience, so I see no problem with that.
I'd probably not be against some small nerfs, but I hope he only gets some smal nerfs and that's it.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/463847/is-the-first-op
If the dev team's official "counterplay" to the killer is "run sprint burst and prerun," yes the killer is OP lol
Pretty sure those were just tips for versing Vecna. The counterplay is and has been running unpredictably, and dodging his vine attacks. With the occasional holding w if you have enough distance to him and breaking line of sight when possible.
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@Orvarihusklumpen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4053266#Comment_4053266
Nearly everyone on the forums are complaining about him and people on twitter are complaining about his vine attack having zero cooldown. They nerf that and the Vecna players will just zone like Springtrap or Huntress at a loop. His power is fundamentally flawed whatever the devs decide to do with the killer.
Zoning can be further nerfed by increasing his cancel cooldown duration though. I think if they do that and increase the recharge time of Vecna's power a bit, he'd be in a perfect spot.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4053370#Comment_4053370
The bigger difference, is that Vecna basically has no cooldown on his attack. So while Nurse can readjust, she needs to charge first and then she gets fatique and has to wait to get 2 charges. In the same amount of time, Vecna can use his attack 6 times.
And while its true that a good Nurse can basically guarantee a hit, so can a good Vecna. If you are in the center of a vine attack, there is no dodging it.
And Vecna must be bugged then with his movementspeed, because I had Vecna's still gaining distance on me while charging their Vine Attack, and while playing around, I also didnt lose any distance. Which could have been fixed with the latest hotfix, I wouldnt know as I dont play DBD as commonly anymore, since they still didnt punish tunnelling at 5 gens or long term slugging despite that being promised almost 2 years ago.
And his mobility is like them, because he moves much faster. It's different in the sense that Vecna can guarantee a hit with his ability by being under someone, and its very easy to get under someone when you can see them. It's also different in that Vecna does not have a lullaby or terror radius, unlike Dracula and Spirit.
So if they fixed his movementspeed after the hotfix, sure, he would have a bit more counterplay (which, still mainly is shift+w btw, which was pretty much the biggest point at the end of the comment, shift+w is boring counterplay). But then there is still the issue that survivors cannot see where Vecna is aiming, and the issue that the clock mechanic doesnt exactly do much (2 people dont really speed it up, could also have been bugged, but I timed it. While 1 survivor should reduce the 4 minute timer to 27-ish seconds, 2 survivors should drop it to 20 seconds, but I got 26 seconds. So even if they fixed it, it is still terrible design, because he gets another guaranteed minute afterwards and can restart it within 3-5 seconds afterwards).
All in all, he needs a fix. And imo, just surrounding the clock:
1. Phase 2 should take as long as phase 1.
2. 1 survivor listening speeds it up from 1 minute per survivor to 40 seconds per survivor, 2 speed it up to 20 seconds per survivor, 3 speeds it up to 10 seconds per survivor and 4 gets it to 5 seconds per survivor (which is gonna be rare since 1 is always getting chased).
3. listening to the clock reduces your tokens by 1 for listening in and by 2 if you help finish the interaction.
4. Getting hooked reduces your tokens by 2, but makes 1 permanent token.
5. Vecna can damage you even outside the clock timer if he gets you to 4 charges.
6. The clock timer will start every 2 minutes, each vine attack that connects reduces it by 60 seconds per survivor hit.
7. Getting unhooked gives you a 1 minute immunity to token gain.
8. Hooking a survivor with 4 tokens will start/reset the clock and double the time for phase 1.
That should create a better back and forth between survivors, gives Vecna more lethality if he happens to miss the wrong survivor. The current clock mechanic just feels useless due to how easy it is to trigger and gives a guaranteed minute. Just the ability to reduce phase 2 by interacting with the clocks makes it not a guaranteed minute, but being able to trigger it with any 2 vine hits also means you can spread out.If a survivor is in the center of a vine attack, all they need to do is keep running forward and they dodge the vine attack. And that is mathematically provable. Survivors gain 2.4 meters distance within 0.6 seconds, which is the delay of the vine attack. The radius however of the vine attack is only 1.46 meters.
In my opinion Vecna is pretty fine the way he is, I just think his power should be a little less spammable, and then he'd be in a perfect spot.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
I don't think that increasing the cooldown is a good idea. Increasing a killer's cooldown and making him being more punished for missing, they will start to use their power only in safe situations instead of doing random tries like Pyramid Head and Deathslinger players do, which is very boring.
I want to clarify here too that I do not want a cooldown duration increase, being slowed down for 3 seconds is definitely enough, I want the recharge time to be just slightly longer so Vecna is forced to follow a survivor for 2 seconds at normal 110% movement speed without getting to use his power after having just used it.
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@KytLuna said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4053874#Comment_4053874
Exactly. The thing with these kinds of killers is that they're purposefully made to be high risk/high reward. For example, as you mentioned The Deathslinger, getting a hit on a survivor with your gun pretty much guarantees an injury/dying state, but if you miss, not only have you been moving slower while aiming, but you then also have to reload before trying again, giving the survivor so much distance on you, which as a 4.4 killer, means he'll have to spend a lot of time then catching up again before being able to risk another shot.
While I do think the 3s cooldown for Vecna's Vine Attacks is a little too short, I think that 5 seconds is way too excessive. Maybe like 3.25s - 3.5s MAX. I don't mind the other suggestion they made as that extra .25s isn't so much time that it opens any opportunities the survivors wouldn't already have.
To clarify here, I do not want a 5 second cooldown for The First. That would slow him down for way too much, especially considering he slows down to 1.79 M/S during that cooldown. I am talking about a recharge time increase. So Vecna gets to move at 110% again after 3 seconds, but only gets to use his power again after 5 seconds.
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@Dinadin said:
Whats the lot amount of fair counterplay?
Moving unpredictably, breaking line of sight and most importantly dodging in time. But of course you have to predict where the vine attack will appear, reacting to it doesn't work.
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@SaltyNooty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/463335/the-real-vecna-guide-the-first-henry
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050299#Comment_4050299
UPDATE 2
So. I'm here again with another update for Henry/Vecna after a bit more information gathering and playing against him. Im sure by now, everyone has probably got a good grasp on how to deal with him or not. It's roughly been about a week since his release, so I'll go over what I've confirmed and what still needs more data.
1. @Brokenbones was correct. His Upside Down Strike Does come out faster when Worldbreaker is active. I had been specifically making sure to pay attention to when it's active and when it's not and it is Significantly easier to evade his attack when Worldbreaker isn't active then when it is.
Though, it's not impossible to get out of the range when WorldBreaker is active, it's much, much more difficult. I've also noticed the ring appears to be somewhat larger when Worldbreaker is active.
2. I've already confirmed this previously, but I'll reiterate for brevity sake. The clock does not move faster when multiple people are on. I wanted to reconfirm this fact to assure that I wasn't just throwing something out there without any factual evidence, and trust me; I've done it multiple times. It does not move any faster. So, just to reconfirm, do not have multiple people on the clock. You'll lose pressure and you will likely end up losing that match.
3. I've also confirmed that for Henry to Mori you, you have to meet these conditions.Your Invasion Meter must be full.You must be downed by his Mind Invasion attackHenry can only mori you in world breaker. (not including the mori offering.)
I've noticed that he was able to kill people without them being on Death Hook, but I'll have to play a few more matches and get lucky enough to see it happen. Maybe other people have this knowledge.
4. For those wanting to know how to properly counter Henry. I've noticed that he has about a 4 - 5 second cooldown between each M2/ Mind Invasion attack, so every time you here that sharp shrill sound/audio cue, start counting between the time it spawns in and the next one. Knowing cooldowns is irrefutably one of the most important factors in learning how to play as a killer and against a killer.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050315#Comment_4050315
5. As @Senaxu previously said, Lockers are also a viable counter against the Upside Down Strike, but as you would with a Billy or a Bubba, you'll need to time it properly otherwise, they'll grab you out the locker and it'll be a free Hook for them. I fully agree with the notion that it's better to take a Health State then have Worldbreaker active.
6. This is incredibly important, so I highly implore you all to pay attention here. World Breaker will AUTOMATICALLY activate if Henry uses an M2 against someone who has their Mind Invasion Meter full. I've seen this happen multiple times. Not exactly sure why that is, but it is incredibly dangerous for someone who has their clock full to be attacked by that move.
Obviously, that'll mean World Breaker will activate and they can be killed. That means that Henry has a built in snowball effect as once that happens, you'll have to run to the clocks to deactivate the power or attempt to save that person from being killed.
Bodyblocking is somewhat effective but, since Henry's M2 is an aimed attack, I'd be more inclined to focus on the gens.
Honestly, the safest way to avoid being mori'd is to hop into a locker depending on where your hook state is because then they'll HAVE to hook or slug you; and seeing as how Henry cannot hit you with his Mind Invasion when you're downed. It's a safer bet then hoping you can run him for long enough; those hitboxes can be nasty if they choose not to agree with you.
Hopefully, all the information i've gathered is able to help somebody. I really have been enjoying this chapter, so if I find anything else out; I'll keep you all posted.Can I ask how you gained all this information? Because from my own experience, and according to the official DBD wiki, some of it is not true. I am positive there is no difference between the delay outside and inside of worldbreaker mode, and the circle also isn't any bigger when in worldbreaker mode.
Plus worldbreaker mode's first phase does finsih faster the more survivors you have on the clock, the increase is just much less noticeable with every additional survivor on a clock.
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@Brokenbones said:
So there's something that's been bothering me since the PTB and this could be a placebo case but I swear I read something that said this was a thing
Supposedly, when Worldbreaker is active - Henry's power attacks come out faster than they do outside of it. I swear I saw this in a loading screen tip on the PTB.
I'm not saying this is a fact as it is not mentioned anywhere in his power description but the fact they intentionally left out the mori mechanic from that (Confirmed on dev livestream) I'm not entirely sure it's fully accurate.
I only ever saw this mentioned by one of the forum users here, who claimed that the vine attack is faster when in worldbreaker mode, but I am pretty positive that is not true. When playing him I feel no difference, and there is also nothing mentioned on the official DBD wiki, which would normally have info like that.