Blueberry
Blueberry
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I guess I'm not sure what we mean by "best". Like easiest to do? Most balanced? Most interesting?
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@terumisan said:
bad i was thinking about putting haste on jason and then i remembered that dim ret was a thing
Same. Auras also don't work in OE so that's off. His kicks and vaults are "special" so all those perks are off. Undetectable/Oblivious is pretty pointless for how much he has base.
So I'm like…i guess we're just stacking slow downs..again.
If his kick and vaults we're special he could've had some unique synergy running kick perks or vault speed perks to speed up his jumpscare..some cool synergy, but nah. Or if the haste stacked to make his OE traversal even faster. Lots of perks require basic hits, that's off. PWYF is removed on m2's now since that nerf.
I understand the perspective of balance with those things but we've done so much that just all synergies are removed and there's nothing interesting left. You just run the same perks on everything.
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If it's ALL bots left in the match the killer is forced to play the match to the end if he wants it to count for mmr, otherwise it gives them a draw.
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@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089791#Comment_4089791
Agreed. But that being said I'll also highlight the survivor side: They lost the legitimacy of a lot of the more fun survivor builds I enjoyed. Goofy max heal speed or 'make number go up' builds aren't as viable anymore. Yes I'm a killer main, but I liked to make silly builds when I was running around. It really gutted people on both sides, and I do feel the need to highlight it before people accuse us of being Killer crying.
Just hasn't been healthy as of yet, but perhaps it will become so.Oh yeah I am speaking for both sides in not liking the change.
To be honest it would go a very long way if they just said, "hey just a heads up that we are working on a ton of perk changes and improvements post diminishing return changes". We've heard literally nothing.
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@NeverSolus said:
Initially I would have said good - as in time it could develop into more fulfilling perks and build variety. But given the current rate of data release and perk adjustments (none), I realize that in order for diminishing returns to reach fruition, it will take until the heat death of the universe; at least at the current trending update speed.
It seems to be nothing but a half-hearted attempt to address balance without actually doing the dirty, hard work of addressing the issues. I would love to be wrong, but as of current I've seen no evidence to the contrary and promises are hollow.
Again, would very much like to be wrong.I agree. They should've had a pile of perk updates and improvements ready to go at the same time as this change.
As it stands I already felt like there was very little perk diversity or options of perks to run before. Now..it's even less..than the already low amount lol
Stack that with the change from splitting basic break and special break and as I'm going down the perk options I see basically nothing. The thing I enjoy with killers is looking for unique synergies with their kit and these 2 changes remove any synergies at all from most killers.
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@TurnOffTheTVs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089510#Comment_4089510
He's not a B tier killer in the slightest.
I haven't seen a single person put him higher than A- at most, with the vast majority putting him high B.
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You can throw them through shack holes, the hit box is extremely small like Deathslingers.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089587#Comment_4089587
OE I'm not in a great place to comment from playing as him, coz I havn't even been able to play much as him coz of the queue times. Like while people I've seen complain "He is like springtrap" playing against him doesn't feel like that at all, I love the little red light green light of OE you need to do.
I will say I know people say his perks are meh, but I've been loving rampage (mainly coz I eat so much dirt playing killer), so zooming after people in revenge as unknown has been really funny with enduring/brutal
Deffo the best killer release to go against in a long while for me. I wonder if he'll be able to be added to 2v8 at all.Yeah he's been the most fun to play as and against for me in a while. I never thought about it as red light green light but that is very accurate lol.
The problem I have with Rampage is the same reason Hubris isn't good. Against decent survivors as soon as they see you trigger it a single time, they are never activating it again. I see them as basically a hex perk that gets auto cleansed as soon as it triggers once. Imo is needs a trigger in your control like kicking a gen. Then it could help basic m1's that have no map mobility.
Something new I just realized on my last match against him is that his body while in OE still has collision with the map. Like how even when Spirit is phasing she moves grass. So you can see him moving through grass and what not.
He also kinda reminds of a lot of playing against Hag oddly.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089577#Comment_4089577
It's more it is just a sign that it's day 2 or so and people on both sides don't understand the power fully. Of course some know a lot about it, but everyones still learning. I don't think we should discredit opinions on either side just over that, maybe it's a sign his power isn't clear enough (I personally love the mist tell as I've come to learn him)
As I keep saying I've been really enjoying him so far, but I'm noticing my casual friends are really struggling against him, it'll probably get easier for them with time.
I just think also the people who are already good at him, are going to be even better when they optimize him, most people I watch play seem to settle on he is really good at tunneling/omnipresent evil is overloaded, not to mention I see that a lot here too so far.
I think there is good opinions to take from both sides.I agree they could make the descriptions of the counter play more clear for players. Sometimes it's not explained well.
I don't agree his OE is overloaded. I see it a lot here as well, but as I mentioned before, most these people complaining don't even know about crouching. It would be like me complaining about Spirits phasing while I'm sprinting around and not even knowing she can see my scratch marks. It would be hard to take my opinion seriously.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089389#Comment_4089389
I mean it works both ways, I've seen killers tell survivors to use calm spirit lol
That's true, but they're also not the ones calling for changes. It's the combination, not just misunderstanding how a mechanic works. I wouldn't fault them for just that.
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Badham, Gas Heaven and Tricksters are veryy one sided.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089514#Comment_4089514
Yeah springtraps also issue is having a power counter on a killer with ample warning and average strength. They even said with the micro buffs "if survivors want or chose to use a camera" so it sounds like they are perfectly okay with a killer having a power counter thats entirely optional. And the power has interesting features like the camera ignoring normal undetectable (doesnt matter when he warns you enough ahead of time with the door warning and loud footsteps) but you never see that because you dont need to.
Yeah I feel like he's too loud and gives too much information. His map traversal also feels slow and clunky to me for the sake of thematics.
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@cammoking123 said:
Why does his omni-present evil last forever? It'd be like if Spirit could phasewalk forever. I find it miserable to go against.
Because unlike Spirit he can't appear right on top of you, you know exactly what potential spots he can appear on, and unlike Spirit you can completely mask your presence from him, ie crouching so he has no idea where you're at.
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@BigKingWoof said:
I don't feel like he's over powered, but he's definitely got too much going on in his kit/add ons. I really don't see the point in hiding the survivors while in Omnipresent Evil mode when you can see their red mist and foot steps anyway. Sure you can crouch, but once people get over the fear of him, they'll just ignore it and keep moving. His addons giving oblivous, exhaustion, gen regression and such are just too much. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they give the survivor the status map wide (or at least a really huge radius), and that's just too oppressive. It's also really pointless making him 4.4 when he gets haste for so long coming out of Omnipresent Evil.
They gave him way too much and it feels like he doesn't have anything that punishes him outside of rearing the spike, but that's nothing. 1 minor draw back against a fully stacked kit seems unbalanced. Again, he's not over powered, but he needs to lose some things. It gets exhausting having to deal with everything from one killer…It's almost borderline old Skull Merchant.
You say he's not overpowered but then say he's overloaded and needs stuff removed. This is contradictory. If he's not overpowered then he shouldn't need things removed since removing things is nerfing a not overpowered killer.
Crouching removes his info entirely. If as you say people get over their fear of him and ignore this counter play that's a skill issue of them knowing and actively ignoring his counter play. That isn't a Jason problem.
You reference multiple addons but he can only ever have 2 on, so it's not like he's stacking all these. Also mentioning the Oblivious ones is a little strange as those aren't even good. You also complain about a map wide status when they're not map wide, so you're complaining about something and asking for nerfs without understanding how it even works.
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Why are all these spam posts new accounts.
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There's also been multiple shorts showing how it actually throws with a left tilt from where the aim actually is, so it's off center.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089511#Comment_4089511
Yeah somewhat hoping that similar what happened with lich and dracula where dracula just kinda innovated much better on vecnas stuff that they ended up doing a big patch on vecna in numerous ways to make him good in his own way. (I still think dracula goes higher but vecna is very fun regardless) so with jason they have a reason to raise springtraps bar in his own way.
Yeah I agree. I personally don't have much opinion on Vecna or Dracula as I've barely played either of them. They're just not my type of killers. I get your point though and agree.
I know many of the B tiers getting buffs like Springtrap can be controversial to some, but I at least think the community as a whole should be able to agree that anything C tier and below should be able to safely have buffs thrown at them without question or concern. I mean things like Pig, or Ghostface, or Doctor ect ect. These killers are low enough that this shouldn't really be a question imo.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089505#Comment_4089505
Oh springtrap isnt hardly played i love him personally. Thats why jason is so good to me as well. Its just hard to not see him as what springtap COULD have been. He appears with a jumpscare which coulda been good for springtrap with his signature shriek. The 115 basically after jumpscaring leaning into it. The tracking from doing so. The ability to 2 tap with spear into melee vs springtrap who actually has a longer cooldown for hit (8 seconds). Also fundamentally quiet besides his footsteps but they aint any louder than other options I think. Springtrap sounds like a freight train coming at you.
Yeah I'm not really referencing Springtrap here, I suppose I phrased that poorly. He is popular. I do think he's a bit weak though personally.
I do find Jason to just be a better Springtrap tbh as you're referencing. I personally couldn't really get into Springtrap as he just felt too weak and clunky to me. Jason feels better designed. I wish they'd smooth out some of Springtraps clunkyness.
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@TurnOffTheTVs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089415#Comment_4089415
It's absolutely Jason being tuned too high. He has:
- Insane map traversal
- Insane info while IN said map traversal
- Complete and total stealth… while in said map traversal.
- Almost little to no real tell on where he is while in said map traversal.
- 4.6 ranged killer
Every single ranged killer is 4.4 for a reason, because on loops like pallets they are busted as 4.6, yet here Jason is and he gets to be 4.6 while having one of the best projectiles in the game. There's no logic to it, it isn't just everyone else being bad, he straight up out classes every other ranged killer in EVERY category.
Map traversal? Jason beats them. Info? Jason beats them. Stealth? Jason beats them. Being 4.6 while they're all 4.4? Like c'mon dawg.
Then the nice cherry on top is that his counterplay… is doing nothing. His counterplay is boring, you just have to crouch walk around and do nothing. If you do a gen? He can see that. If you do a totem? He can see that. Which is why totem builds are so busted on him. Throw on thrill of the hunt, it takes ages to do a totem, he'll find you doing the totem and then when he appears it forces you to scream which resets the entire progress of the totem.
He's just not well put together.
And yet with all this he's still only a B tier killer, bottom of A at best if you want to be generous.
You point out that every single ranged killer is 4.4 for a reason, yet all those ranged killers at 4.4 are B tier or below, aka weak. Outclassing weak killers isn't the problem you feel it is. It just illustrates that those other killers need improvements.
You're really just pointing out how weak other killers are, not how too strong Jason supposedly is.
Crouching removes his info entirely. I can go multiple matches in a row without screaming from his Jumpscare a single time. This isn't new counter play, lots of killers are weaker to stealth play. Maybe you don't like stealth play, but others do.
He's one of the most well put together killers they've released in a while. Bar his terrible perks and many uninteresting addons.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089415#Comment_4089415
Cant say much to the jason-Springtrap situation but The forum is funny in this regard.
Its okay to demand buffs to survivor to make survivor+badplayer equal to survivor+goodplayer+comms.
But buffing weaker killers to be on par with the strong who barely equal to survivor... The community rather gut the few killers who can compete.
Maybe make cameras track and reveal survs automaticallyover time kinda like singuslarity. survs turn them off and bunnyboy turns them back on. Wouldnt that be annoying enough to force usage?
Yeah I really don't understand the insane push back on buffing all the very bad killers that are hardly played while simultaneously complaining that they get the same killers over and over.
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@CorgiSploots said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089415#Comment_4089415
I disagree if every match is gonna be a 20 minute slog because the killer gets infinite information from the get go. We're gonna lose players even faster than we are. Jason needs to be slowed down immensely. We're day 3 into his release and it's still non stop. No one is playing anyone else we should be slowing down if he truly was mid tier.
What are you talking about? Infinite information? You mean the info that's entirely removed by holding a crouch button?
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It's not Jason being tuned too high, it's the other ranged killers being tuned too low. They could all use improvements to varying degrees, Springtrap included.
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@SaltyPotatoRebel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089389#Comment_4089389
No that really is my complaint.... Duck walking and hiding. Don't get me wrong, love the idea of a jump scare killer...however, survivor matches have been boring AF! Even when I survive I'm like, wow low chase…hide. I thought BHRV was getting away from that style. Solo que even worse... They are dead before one gen popped. I'd say roughly half the matches I'm dead after first hook
I mean I'd argue there are already lots of killers where stealth is the better counter play. So it doesn't really seem like a Jason thing per say. Some people do like the stealth game play, so I'm sure that's why they make it so there's something for everyone.
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If everyone actually uses his crouch counter play it weakens him a ton. So far though in the vast majority of my games basically no one does this.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088714#Comment_4088714
That's how I feel. I might try the Haste Token perk though on Houndmaster. Sounds fun.
If they would just make Rampage also trigger on gen kicks it could potentially be decent on m1 killers with no mobility to help them around the map.
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Personally I'd like NOED reworked entirely. It's a cheese perk that rewards kills not earned, in my opinion.
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The amount of people I've see complain about his jump scare and saying it's too strong while simultaneously also not even knowing about crouching has been quite significant. It shows how quick people are to complain before even understanding the abilities at a basic level.
I would say the majority of survivors in all my games do not crouch at all.
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@Wyndsor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089380#Comment_4089380
Most of them are not good because they happen within a chase, getting exhausted for 13 seconds vs Jason is incredibly oppressive, but this does not mean all exhaustion addons should be this strong.
You know you can literally avoid this entirely but just crouching right?
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I find this wild. Not only do they not need to be nerfed but they in general need buffs for "most" killers. A few have decent ones.
There's almost always a guaranteed 4 exhaustion perks every match. This would mean exhaustion addons would be super good right? There always guaranteed to get max value. Yet they're still almost never ran on most killers that have them because even in their base case scenario (4 exhaustion perks) they're still bad.
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Freddy could use improvements, but honestly I just find his design boring. I liked OG Freddy.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
I love playing against him, I really don't like how much buffs/debuffs he has baked into for teleporting… feels overkill:
-Haste
-Exhaustion with addon
-Reload
-Scream
-Movement Tracking
-Killer Instinct
-Gen damage
-Pallet Break/wall break/Window block/Pallet deny
-Scream suppression immunity
-can track "footsteps" in locker
kind of feels like how Skully used to where she applied every debuff while gaining haste for little effort.
Otherwise chase against him feels fun when he isn't the Malboro using bad breath.He doesn't get reload, movement tracking and killer instinct are removed on crouch walking, and gen damage is another addon, pallet and window deny is only on the one he teleports to for a split second. This is making it "seem" more stacked than reality.
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4.4 on a killer with no map mobility just feels so bad. Getting pre ran held W at every turn is not fun.
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Why is this even a topic, you literally just crouch walk and the entire effect is negated, you don't even need a perk.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089084#Comment_4089084
Not a hardset rule, no, but a pshycological one.
Y'all are saying slugging is not toxic because it's a strategy for winning the game.
If I'm T-bagging a Killer to tilt them to make them hotheaded and think less about macro gameplay to focus on the micro and forgo pressure, that's also a strategy for helping out my other teamates, even if detrimental to my own survival, since I play cooperatively when I play survivor.
The point of trying to taunt the Killer is because there is only one of them, targeting their focus has distinct gameplay advantages (see tunneling for the Killer beneficial version). It's a strategy one way or the other.
You ignored my point entirely. If you're going to call it strategic for as something as broad as it gets in their head to make mistakes then by that stretch of the definition nothing is ever toxic. Ever. Since I could use that defense for basically any possible "toxic" thing we could think of. If it can negate anything from being toxic by that broad of a definition stretch, it's probably a bad definition.
Let's say we're in a game with voice chat. By your definition calling people a bunch of slurs isn't toxic at all, because hey it's just trying to get in their head to make them make mistakes. Not toxic. That would be silly. 99% of people would say that's toxic.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089073#Comment_4089073
It is literally the premise of a taunt mechanic. And yes, why it's usually done at the gate, or at a pallet/vault loop where you're waiting on the Killer to make a mindgame. So you try to mess with their mind.
That's why a taunt mechanic doesn't exist in dbd. Those are meant for other purposes, they're just being used as a taunt.
If you want to stretch the definitions so far that "it's to mess with their mind", then nothing in existence is ever toxic, because I could literally call anything "just to mess with their mind".
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@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089071#Comment_4089071
I like the idea of 'on gen kick' but 'on gen kick' doesn't justify it enough to me. That's just too much work to get value out of my perk. I have 4 slots, I'm going to pick things that deliver consistently, not things that have the chance to maybe deliver if I perform bonus side-objectives and frolic through the daisies in a counter-clock-wise circle for precisely seven seconds, ya'know?
I have nothing against perks having bonus conditionals and triggers, but if they do then they need to be consistently and meaningfully stronger than their counterparts. For instance if Ruin says Gens not being worked on regress at 150%, then an 'activated' perk version that say, only triggers on hooking a survivor, would need to regress meaningfully more, as it required a trigger. So that would put it at say, 300% Regression speed or so.
Outside of that both myself, and many many killer mains, are just going to take the perks that don't require jumping through hoops to perform.
Then again, I main huntress, so I'm kind of attracted to the simplicity of Shadowborn over "Rampage."
For the record, "Rampage"? Really? What about this perk seems like a rampage? I kick a bunch of wood to splinters then get zoomies when someone blinds me with a flashlight? That's not a 'rampage' that's meth.Totally agree with your points.
What if we also made you gain tokens from gen kicks as well? You'd reach max tokens significantly faster while also triggering on gen kicks. That seems reasonable. Making the haste more would be abusable at loops.
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To me it's all if it has a realistic strategic component. Like slugging for pressure or to avoid perks has a strategic advantage. Tbagging has no strategic advantage other then you just want to make the other person mad. Toxic. Same for bleeding people out once the game's over, this is just to make the other person mad. Toxic.
And no trying to make the other person mad so they chase you is not strategic before someone says that. That's a far, far stretch of the word.
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@NeverSolus said:
Jester is right in that they aren't far off from being good, theoretically.
Silent Shadow - Leave as is. I suspect we're going to see a Silent Shadow + NOED explosion. Either completely rework it, or leave it alone. I suspect a total rework will be in order to prevent an unhealthy end-game meta. Just triggering on gen completion and removing the final gen progress would make it sub par unless the duration went up to 30 seconds or so.
Scared to Death - Either remove the hex part of it entirely, or reduce trigger requirements. It's a perk that can be broken, and likely will be broken, so it should be starting from the first hook. Otherwise no one will bring it, as there's a huge chance for it to be cleansed before it ever adds value at all.
Rampage - I disagree with Jester here, respectfully. This is garbage. Charging tokens by breaking pallets is punishing in and of itself given the time sink involved - and it generates tokens far, far too slowly. Last I checked it takes 2.34 seconds to break a pallet. Factoring five seconds to move between pallets, that's 95.4 seconds of nonstop pallet breaking, doing nothing else, to fully charge this perk. That's enough time for up to four generators to be completed in standard settings, and more likely two on average. So to translate this in time as a resource, I sacrifice one of my four perk slots to lose two generators before this perk comes online. Then it requires me to be stunned by a pallet (of which very few are left now because I broke 13), or be flashlighted (which I should just be looking away and avoiding), to get 13 seconds of 13% haste.
So I have to build tokens, which requires survivor interaction to begin with in throwing pallets, and then I get the privilege of getting haste if I let them blind me? AND they can just counter it by having champion of light? Shadowborn gives 10% haste for 10 seconds right out of the gate with no pallet breaking requirements, making it immensely easier to use, and it's still considered a bad perk.
No. Rampage is just bad. Max haste per token should be [2*TOKEN]%, and duration should be lowered to 9 seconds. Give me 26% haste for 9 seconds (three seconds of which is lost to, you know, being blinded) and we'll talk. Otherwise either get rid of the pallet breaking requirement entirely, or skyrocket the value from the trigger. Outside of that it needs outside interaction buffs to be even remotely plausible.I'm pretty much with you on these points.
Scared to Death remove the hex component and it's fine.
Rampage is trash I agree. It's trigger chances being completely up to the survivors is what ruins it imo. Once they see it trigger a single time, they will never activate it again. Imo keep everything else the same, but make it also trigger on gen kicks so you can control some activation. This seems conservative as I could definitely understand giving it even more.
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@pidgeon said:
Silent Shadow is great imo especially with bbq
Scared to death shouldn't be a hex
Rampage needs more chances to activate
Those seem reasonable. What do you think about Rampage triggering on basic gen kicks? Costs kick time and regression limits while also giving some map mobility for the basic m1's without map mobility.
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Imo give him a stacking speed increase from successful knife hits
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088983#Comment_4088983
This is about the screaming that happens after he exits the mode
Yes I know. Crouching blocks the scream as well.
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You realize you can just crouch walk to avoid it entirely right?
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@SkeletonDance said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088977#Comment_4088977
Then maybe it should trigger haste after breaking a pallet?
I worry that could potentially be too much stacked with some other killer powers or perks. I was thinking when kicking a gen. Now it would give basic m1 killers and non mobility killers something to help them move around the map or potentially kick mid chase as a drive by. This also has the drawback of gen kick time and using up your gen regression limits.
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@SkeletonDance said:
Scared to death - maybe make it non hex would be fine? If it would be too strong then just leaving it as hex but buffing the duration
Rampage - 2 or 3 tokens per pallet break
Shadow - idk
Removing the hex component from Scared to Death makes sense to me since it's a delayed activation.
For Rampage a perk requiring you to be blinded or stunned is just never going to get real value. Once they see you have it once, it's never activating again, similar to Hubris. I think it needs some activation you can control to have a chance.
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@supersonic853 said:
Scared to death would be fine if vigil didnt exist if im honest. I know people will jump on the campaign its not a vigil issue but it very much is. This is basically freddy/clown slowdown for kicking a pallet. But eitherway id probably have it be after a hook like other hexs.
Rampage possibly give more tokens on break?
Shadow is fine.
I agree Vigil is a problematic perk in general. Even without Vigil though we're talking about a perk that takes spread hooks to activate in the first place, requires lots of pallet breaks to start getting a relevant number AND it's a hex lol. I'm assuming they want to keep it a hex so I'd remove the hook component entirely, remove the cooldown, make the totem not light till it triggers once and make it trigger on breakable walls and gen kicks as well. It's a hex so it needs to get high value very quickly.
Rampage is just destined to be bad. Perks giving value only on something the survivors can choose to do isn't going to work. Blinds and pallet stuns are very limited, especially once they see you have the perk. It's the same issue with Hubris. They see you activate it once, and now you're never getting value again. Maybe make it trigger when you kick a gen? Something you can actually control.
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To add onto this I’d really like if mmr had a strong decay if you haven’t played in a long time. Be that role specific or killer specific. You can not touch a killer for 6 months and as soon as you queue you’re thrown right back into the fire.
Also “actual” separate killer mmr’s. Not what we have now which is like 90% of your highest so it might as well be the same for how little difference it is.
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I'm gonna second Freddy. Original Freddy was unique and fit his theme. Current Freddy isn't unique and just feels boring.
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Fun killer facing and as. My only gripe is his perks being terrible.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088489#Comment_4088489
Its not a good sample you just want it to be. That one or two is enough to prove that the data set is invalid. People have done sillier things for smaller reasons, I am not saying that someone is doing so now I am saying it would be trivially easy for someone to do if they wanted to
Show me the study that proved a correlation between engagement and skill. There are plenty of very engaged players that suck, killers just can't accept their skill issues because the game doesn't make them.
That is a 51% WIN RATE minimum, not a kill rate, that is not under performing. You are actively not reading and just saying the data supports you. You are hopelessly biased.
That is statistically a good sample size, not opinion wise. It is not enough to say that the data set is invalid, you just want it to be. There's more of a likelyhood of bhvr just fudging the stats they give us than the idea that someone's gonna upload a thousand fake matches to skew the data.
No one's arguing that there aren't players that play a lot and are still bad. That doesn't disprove the point. Are you really arguing that on average players do not get better at doing something from doing it more? Like really? Is this where I just say the opposite of you and say survivors just can't accept their skill issues because the game doesn't make them? These statements are pointless.
I literally have more hours on survivor than killer, that isn't biased. You just don't agree with my opinion and calling someone biased is a good way to try and invalidate their opinion. 51% win rate(not kill rate) is still not the devs goal for balance.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088469#Comment_4088469
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IWZRWBTV2DY7/image.png
I literally had to go back a single month to find this, but thank you for being generous lol. And the month before that
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/N8D9WJ77MDEF/image.png
But nope no proof at all, lol. Did you even look before typing that out? For all we know every single match in the data set could be a custom match or totally spoofed. You are putting far too much trust in a random website that can be easily manipulated. 18,000 matches? It would be easy for someone to create 1000 accounts and upload twice that many matches and make the site say whatever they wanted.
The selection bias is towards players who are more engaged but that isn't representative of skill, its also primarily english speaking, and then there is needing to know the site even exists in the first place. Poor sampling all around. Every time we have gotten data recently I have compared to nightlight just out of curiosity and they are not even close, official kill rates are always significantly higher.
You continue to ignore the data that shows killers win at least 51% of match overall, again at a minimum. If that doesn't show survivors as the weaker role I frankly don't know what does. The only piece of data you are willing to engage with is the 48% escape rate for high mmr four mans. That isn't killers struggling and it doesn't make the game survivor sided. Yet you continue to insist it does, that is you not accepting real data all while you don't present any data I can engage with, just statement with no evidence attached.
I would love more data from the devs and if they ever present data that killers are struggling I will absolutely consider it. Until then the data we have shows that killers are doing absolutely fine and wanting to change them to showing hook states when those do not actually correlate to how often killers win matches is just silly. How you got the kills doesn't matter when a win is based on kills and when it doesn't matter how you got that kill.
Oh wow man 1 match and the other had 2! That totally changes nothing lol. Why in the world would we believe someone would create 1000 accounts to skew data? There's nothing to support this. It's just silly. I don't put complete trust in Nightlight but it's the best we have to go by for consistent data and 18k is a good sample size.
Engaging doesn't equal skill correct, but there is strong correlation with playing more and getting more skilled. I'm not trying to say this is skewing the kill rates lower than reality but I am saying that if they were going to be skewed any direction it would be much more likely to skew them in your favor.
I'm not ignoring any data. 51% shows the killers are not balanced where the devs want them, they are underperforming. I've engaged with all data presented idk why you're acting otherwise. This is also again mixing the two different balances I presented before. There's a difference between if the game is balanced in most matches and if it's objectively balanced. You're also referencing data on most/average matches and I already stated that in most matches it's going to be killer sided from players being bad. That's a different statement though from objective balance when it's actually good vs good. The irony of presenting data and then saying I'm not presenting data when the data your presenting supports my claims lol.
The data you just presented yourself does not support what you are saying. You're also trying to defend a point we agree on already. Like I said before, I already agree that in most/average matches it's killer sided since most players are bad. I'm only stating the game is objectively survivor sided, IE good vs good.