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Blueberry
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088426#Comment_4088426
Not everyone uses matchmaking. Don't put everyone in your box. I pull back when I see the match is skewed heavily in my favor, and I usually let someone have hatch, or let multiple people go, when a match is terribly unfair, or if someone threw. Not all of us care only about seeing four skulls on the results page.
So you've deemed tunneling as unskilled despite it having similar pitfalls to what you mention, but somehow slugging while using Blindness, Undetectable, and certain perks against soloqers is skillful. Your argument seems to be that you've decided that slugging is skillful because you think you're skillful. But something tells me your end game chat isn't full of "wow Mr. Killer you're so skillful." This strategy works solely because survivors aren't ready for ir, because it circumvents normal gameplay. If they knew in the lobby this would be happening and could adjust their builds you'd have a much harder time. It works because it's unexpected, not because of skill.
What's wild is participating in something you probably get told dozens of times a day is infuriating then trying to wash your hands of the responsibility of making people feel bad over a video game with dbd's most toxic mantra—I'm not responsible for your fun. You are responsible for their misery though.
Everyone uses matchmaking lol. Like literally. Are we adding custom games into this or something? Yeah I pull way back when I see it's heavily skewed as well. Not all of us care about seeing four skulls on the results page I agree. I know that's that light you'd like to be painting me in, but that's not the case.
We've already seen stats that the majority of games are not solo queue, so lets nip that right here at the beginning. My argument is not that slugging is skillful because I think I'm skillful. That's what you're reading, not what was actually typed. Do you think survivors regularly give props in end game chat to killers regardless of if they play nice? What a lovely world that would be lol. I play lots of other killers normally, that is not what happens. Also, whether someone gets mad about slugging is irrelevant. What if someone is angry at me just because they don't like the killer I picked? Is that my fault too? Or is that now a them problem? IE the point is their anger has to actually be rational anger. We can't cater to irrational nature. It also does not only work because they aren't ready for it. This is just trying to paint it in a light that supports your opinion you already want to believe that it's "exploiting people" when it's not. Slugging is normal game play, that's why there's quite literally perks for it. It works regardless, it does not require unexpected game play.
Lots of people think lots of things are infuriating every day because of a multitude of reasons, that doesn't imply those things are objectively infuriating. Like I think the true real reason people hate slugging is because it's strong and it hits peoples egos. Someones ego is not the other persons problem, especially with what we're talking about, which is doing it strategically and not with toxic intentions.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088455#Comment_4088455
It is far more inaccurate than kills, we literally define a win based on how many people are killed, not how many hooks they get. So long as these strategies exist and are prevalent they must be taken into account for how matches play out. Hooks don't better represent kills than kills do.
The fact that even a single customs match exists in the data set proves the data set is skewed and we can't even state how many matches in the set are customs, just that at least some are. You can't just ignore that and the obvious volunteer selection bias (amongst others) and claim good sampling. When they diverge as much as they do from official stats we can further dismiss them being remotely representative.
The stats show that even a solidly good 4 man loses more than they win. Your refusal to accept that doesn't make the game survivor sided, it makes you unwilling to accept anything that doesn't fit in line with your personal opinion. If you have some real evidence that doesn't have obvious holes that shows killers struggling then I am more than willing to look at and consider it but that data doesn't exist otherwise you would have presented it by now and not tried to pass off nightlight as representative.
Why you got kills matters significantly more than just if you got kills. That's why this matters.
Technically we don't have have proof of even one, I was just being generous here. So I wouldn't really say "the fact". In the grand scheme of the amount in the data pool little numbers like that don't matter to any relevance anyway. I just find it baffling to believe that there's tons of super old matches people are uploading to skew the data for no reason. It's just illogical. I wouldn't say I'm ignoring selection bias, I'd just point out that the selection bias of people that would in fact upload their data are probably better players, ie skewing the kill rates UP, not DOWN. So if anything that bias would be in your favor. Claiming it diverges tremendously from official data doesn't make sense either as we realistically don't get much data from the devs. It's always very limited in scope and at best once a year if that.
"The stats show that even a solidly good 4 man loses more than they win.
Your refusal to accept that doesn't make the game survivor sided, it
makes you unwilling to accept anything that doesn't fit in line with
your personal opinion. "I never said I didn't accept that, which shows you aren't really understanding what I'm saying. You're reading what you want to see rather than what's actually being said to fit in line with your personal opinions. I never stated nor implied a good 4 man wins more than they lose. All I mentioned was how the games balanced. Losing more than they win also doesn't mean we're at kill metric for the devs balance goal. The irony that you haven't shown anything to support survivors being the weaker role. If you have some data without obvious holes I'm more than willing to look it over as well. What you accuse me of you are guilty of yourself. You currently have nothing to support your claims.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088440#Comment_4088440
4 man slugging is about as skillful as knowing when you need to return to the microwave for your pizza rolls before the beep goes off. Knowing how to apply pressure correctly is the skill you're misattributing to 4 man slugging. Some instances where slugging a survivor to apply pressure to a gen close to completion is the correct play. Slugging for the sake of slugging just to walk back to a survivor every 20 to 30 seconds to collect free health states on survivors looking to get their teammate back into the game is not skillful at all.
We understand that you feel that slugging is skillful, but 4 man slugging in and of itself isn’t. It's the other skills people apply, which do not require 4 man slugging to do, that actually requires game sense.
" just to walk back to a survivor every 20 to 30 seconds to collect free
health states on survivors looking to get their teammate back into the
game is not skillful at all."Well it's a good thing I never said this right. I'm not defending slug camping nor is that even what I'm referencing in my conversations here. I do agree slug camping isn't skillful. No one really does slug camping though since it's gonna lose you the game as now you're giving them a metric ton of time to just sit on gens and leave.
You're conflating slug camping and just slugging. These aren't the same. I'm referencing slugging and completely leaving. This type of slugging is skillful. It's chase after chase and juggling 4 survivors
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088431#Comment_4088431
Unless tunneling becomes impossible it effects matches, match outcomes, and all stats those matches produce, you are effectively describing a different game than the one we currently have. Unless that happens hook rate remains a bad metric.
They are factually worse, making kill rates look worse than they actually are is incentive enough for some people and if you don't know what a selection bias is you probably should look that up, the basics are that the population using nightlight is unlikely to be representative of the entire population playing dbd. The entirety of the data set for the past month is 18,000 matches, steam players alone peak at above 50,000 players daily, that's more than 10,000 matches every 15ish minutes during peak time assuming everyone of them is in a queued match, which is unrealistic, but even if we say 5000 matches every 15 minutes you see that nightlight represents a tiny fraction of total matches played in a month and we haven't even included console players.
The balance at the very tip top of the game changes to survivor sided but we are talking about a tiny population of players and even then only when they are playing on comms in a four man. Queuing into public matches is factually killer sided.
Well even if we were to assume that change does not happen, and the stats are skewed by tunneling, it is still significantly more accurate than kills regardless. Not accurate mind you, just more accurate.
That data pool is actually an extremely good sample size for studies. A made up premise that people are sticking data on their to artificial skew the data to me is silly and there's nothing to actually support this.
The size is significantly larger than you believe in my opinion.
I would probably agree that the "average" match is killer sided in the sense of most matches are against bad players. IE skewed killer because of player skill, not game balance. However I'd also say the game is objectively survivor sided and to a significant degree at that. IE good vs good, and by good I don't mean 4 man swf on coms that are comp players. I mean just solidly good 4 man.
Now of course these statements have a ton of nuance that could skew it depending what killers or map we're talking about though. The difference between like Ghostface and Nurse for example is a completely different game.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088426#Comment_4088426
To be fair, 4-man slugging isn't skillful at all. It is abusing a mechanic that is in most cases completely uncounterable.
I mean, who are always running things like Unbreakable, WGLF, Made For This, etc.
It is not very common at all. Most survivors I see nowadays are running the usual SB+Vigil, Finesse and chase-oriented builds. Maybe the odd Deliverance or Shoulder the Burden, but I hardly ever encounter anti-slug in my games.
So this is clearly abusing a pretty uncounterable mechanic, that is really unfun and uninteractive to play against
I'm sorry you feel that way, but it is skillful.
I wouldn't say anti slug is meta, but WGLF is.
It's very counterable, it is fun, and it is more interactive than being hooked.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088378#Comment_4088378
And yet tunneling also effects hook rates as it becomes significantly more likely you will get just a single hook on three survivors and three on one, hook rate - 6. So long as you define the killer win as 3k+ kill rate is going to be more representative than hook rate, instead of advocating for either of those we could just show a win rate, % of matches ending in 3k+ and get rid of all interpretation.
Nightlight stats are worse than the BHVR official stats. Players can self select which matches are uploaded alongside a massive selection bias for who uses the site. Its data set also includes at least some custom matches given that the map section includes map variants that can no longer be played in queue.
You have to go out of your way to just use the four man high mmr stats to get that 52% kill rate and ignore the fraction of matches those make up. You also ignore the stat for percent of matches that end with all generators getting completed, 49%, minimum killer win rate of 51%. Remember, exceptions don't make the rule.
That's why if it were up to me I'd also make tunneling literally impossible, not just hard.
I don't think they're worse. They have no incentive to self select. You're references a very insignificant portion of the data for maps. That is only happening if someone for whatever random reason uploads very old data. Why they would even do that, much less a relevant amount.
There's a difference between balance for most matches and objective balance. Balance for what we see on average and objective balance being when it's actually good vs good matches which actually show true balance.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088338#Comment_4088338
The majority of people don't have 12k hours in this game and don't treat it like a job. This is cheese if for no other reason that you know you're exploiting both bad matchmaking and a bad system with nearly uncounterable tactics. If you were playing perkless and add-on-less, that would be skillful, but this is not.
Tell me how a soloqer counters Blindness, where they have no idea where a slugged person is? And how do they also counter not knowing where the killer is and getting slugged too? Would you like it if survivors could make you blind to gen locations (which isn't as bad, because they're static) as well as having no scratch marks or aura readability all match? Would you call that skillful on their end?
I don't know what it is with certain members of this community and talking about emotion as though this isn't a silly video game meant to be fun and not an exercise in pretending you're a heartless robot. You're doing things that are well known to make the majority of players unhappy, the sort of stuff that makes people quit the game, and for what? What do you gain?
It's not cheese at all and it's not exploiting anything. Everyone uses the bad matchmaking and it's extremely counterable, not even to a difficult degree. I'm sorry you don't agree, but it's very skillful.
Well for one, we already know the majority of matches are not solo queue first of all. Secondly you just look for the survivor on the ground. It's not hard. Takes time yes, but he's also not getting all the regression benefit that he would get from hooking with the meta regression perks. I won't really get into perks since you want base kit references but vigil hard counters it and is literally meta atm. How do they know where the killer is? Literal game sense. I don't run aura perks on survivor and I generally know the rough location of the killer most the time. This isn't a 12k hour thing either, it's basic. You're literally comparing apples to oranges. This is a silly comparison that doesn't work at all.
Painting someone as a heartless robot for a play style is quite ridiculous. People being irrational isn't my problem. I'm not accountable for instability. I would rather always be slugged than hooked. Me having fun isn't the killers responsibility. Especially when nothing is being done with malintent and simply strategy. Just because I think it's ridiculous to be bothered by slugging doesn't mean I'm going to shame or mock those people, they can feel how they want to feel. Trying to paint someone that slugs as a bad person is wild. That is part of the problem right there.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088371#Comment_4088371
You simply state that hook rates have flaws, if we are going to consider if they could be a better metric we need to explore what those flaws are and here we have a scenario showing how they would be a significantly worse metric than kill rates, that is relevant.
Prove that we are not at the aimed for 60% KR, prove that we are significantly below that with real data. You can't because it doesn't exist.
No stats support your statements, you are just making things up and claiming it as truth.
We already were given stats on slugging by the devs and know it's an extremely small percentage of matches meaning the impact on hook stats by slugging would be very small.
Given bhvr is very hesitant to ever give us stats the only stats we have to really go by are Nightlight which are consistently month after month after month with the majority of killers in the 40%'s and basically none coming close to 60%. Now even if we go by the older official stats that YOU gave, that puts them at a 52% kill rate, far below the balance goal. So even the numbers that you used you've proven that they are below the balance goal. So you countered your own argument.
I think I've shown otherwise.
These stats are unreliably anyway tbh though as I mentioned before. They're skewed by a multitude of metrics. So going by their stats no matter who it supports probably isn't useful.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088360#Comment_4088360
Every official stat we have ever been given has shown the killer being favored. The last time we got 4 man high mmr escape rates it was 48%, that is the killer winning more often. Or how about the ones that showed the number of matches where all gens were completed, 49% leaving killers with a minimum win rate of 51%. If 2k's happen even 10% of the time that leaves survivor win rate at 39%, killer sided.
Hook rates? You go for a full four man slug which would show a hook rate of 4 or less. Regardless of the number of times survivors have been hooked more than two of them dying is the killer winning, it doesn't matter how we got to that place especially if any change to make hooking more beneficial leaves those strategies intact.
You can't argue exceptions don't make the rule and then turn around and say but not in this case. Your opinion fails in the face of all real stats.
The game "balance" state that is aimed for is 60% KR. We are significantly below that. 60% KR is what they consider balanced.
I thought I said it enough but I'll type it again. There are issues with going by hook metrics as well, such as slugs, but it still fixes a lot more issues that arrive from going by kills. I don't understand why we bring up exceptions to why going by hooks is bad when I literally just typed that there were exceptions already, just that there are simply less than kills.
I don't know how more simply I can explain this. Even the flawed stats support my statements.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088357#Comment_4088357
To clarify, my definition of cheese is around the same as yours. Catching a survivor the first time? That takes skill. Repeatedly downing them when they are stuck injured and are constantly being forced to sit and wait? There's no skill involved in that. Being downed one time shouldn't mean you're basically out of the game until everyone else is down. Hooking at least is a time investment on the Killer's part, has built in counters for camping and like you mentioned triggers perks that help keep them in the game.
I am aware that 'bleeding out' isn't the goal of the strat, but if the survivors don't immediately fold to it - that's inevitably what happens unless the Killer really messes up and overcommits to someone (Which they typically don't do in my experience, proxying their slugs is more effective).
Alright, about the playing well thing - can you really argue that a Killer doing this strat and NOT downing all 4 survivors is playing well, then? I mean - your endgoal is to 4 man slug then hook everyone and if you can't do that, then are you playing well? Or are you gonna get bailed out by the inevitable bleedout/survivors just abandoning? This is why I argued the removal of bleedout, to remove this 'bailout' for lack of a better word.
As for the 3v1 thing - if you want to really get into the nitty gritty - you are CONSTANTLY making the match a 3v1 by slugging. Survivors on the ground cannot do anything, they are effectively out of the game until picked up. Then let's say you down another survivor while the first one is still recovering, now it's effectively a 2v1. I'm not sure how you can say this isn't the same as tunnelling it achieves the same thing just a different route.
I appreciate the conversation as well, truth be told I don't really mind full slug strats either because I know counters to it. I've routinely been BMed and W/S'd by Bleedout blights because I make their life miserable by constantly jumping into lockers in the far corners of the map. It's pretty amusing.
I suppose your scenario is implying a killer camping around the slugged guy just repeatedly downing him as soon as he rises. Yeah that would be cheese, but is not what I'm describing at all or what is generally happening in full slug matches from my experience. You're juggling multiple survivors so they typically aren't sitting on top of one to instantly redown them. Your scenario is almost a pseudo tunnel that's extremely dragged out and avoiding anti tunnel perks, of which I don't think is the reality of what generally happens. You're typically just being refound again later after getting up. So no skill is removed in this case.
In my slug matches and the ones I face they are not typically proxying the slug as this is losing them the game. As essentially then the survivors are just getting an extremely long hook timer to pump gens so they win. You can't really slug proxy to win. This is losing them the game if they do. What I see and do is completely leaving the person and just go straight for the next the next the next across the map. Hypothetically in your proxy scenario yes I'd agree that's cheese and removing skill, I just don't think that's the reality of what happens generally, nor does it win them the game, nor is it the play style I'm defending here.
Yeah if you can't seal the 4 down before bleedout then I'm failing and not playing well enough. Although generally if I'm playing this badly and not closing out then the game has drug on significantly longer to where they've had way more gen time and they're probably winning. If we're getting close to bleedout times then I'd say the survivors are probably also failing if the gens aren't done by that point. Especially given with a build like this you're lacking gen regression if any at all. The build isn't built for a drug out match that long.
If we're going to simply "1v3" to include someone out of the ground then now we're saying someone on the hook is also a 1v3, which I wouldn't say it is. I think that's stretching the definition a bit. Also that "1v3" is requiring lots of juggling and macro gameplay. Just tunneling someone out into a 1v3 is now a 1v3 without any skill required, it's just a default 1v3. I don't think those are the same basically. One is requiring skill to maintain the lower numbers and one is not.
Yeah I would not condone any toxic behavior like intentionally letting people bleed out after the match is over. I always end the game as soon as possible. I personally would always rather be slugged than hooked. I have more chances at life and can at least do something on the ground, as opposed to being on the hook where I literally can't do anything. Something is objectively more fun than nothing.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088345#Comment_4088345
Meaningless because you have decided it doesn't count as evidence based solely on the killer being played and nothing else. I think you just have an outsized opinion on how good you are at the game. I think I am pretty meh at killer and have a 65% win rate (not kill rate) in the past 30 days, playing primarily as unknown and huntress.
So, since exceptions don't make the rule, that means the game is factually killer sided based on kill rates, win rates, and every other stat we have ever been given, right? Which means survivors cannot be getting handheld since the killer is favored.
The only time this game becomes survivor sided is when its four survivors who are all extremely good and playing in extreme coordination with each other while practicing together practically daily. This is an exception not a rule and if you need to go that far to consider a survivor good then your expectations are factually unreasonably high.
Yeah, the vast majority of the dbd playerbase would also disregard any evidence of balance using Blight as an example lol. This is pretty normal and standard.
Do you know the stats? Because they do not support this statement. Also the stats do not take into account a multitude of factors that skew them anyway to not be very reliable. Hooks rates would probably be a significantly better metric, generally speaking, even though that has some flaws as well but at least less.
I just completely disagree on your standard for when the game is survivor sided. The only time I think the game is killer sided is in a full solo queue match and on one of the more balanced maps like Coal Tower.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088341#Comment_4088341
I do kind of agree with you about it being much harder on lower tier killers, you are correct about that.
But if you call tunnelling cheese, then I gotta say bleedout kills are cheese too then by your own logic.
If the survivors are playing well and not getting 4 man downed - even in that scenario the Killer is going to be constantly knocking them down over and over. Eventually, you just win because someone bled out and boom you're now in the 3v1 just like someone being tunnelled.
You can say it takes longer, but sluggging strats are strong because of how much pressure and time they take away from survivors on gens. Someone being tunnelled can still buy a lot of time for their team with their chases (against most of the roster). Compare that to just being left on the ground, unable to do anything and having to wait for a pickup.
Though I want you to understand my perspective is founded on my experience against bleedout killers as a Solo Q main. I've beaten full slug killers before and the only ones to usually win are Blight's running stuff like infectious, coulrophobia, distressing and double speed (The so called speedrun build). AND EVEN THEN the match still takes like 10+ minutes.
So maybe you have a different definition of cheese than I do. To me cheese is something removing skill from the game to achieve your desired result. Tunneling is forcing the 1v3 as fast as possible which to me removes skill from the game. Slugging is requiring more skill with how much you're juggling. Which is also why I only say its better on specific killers and if the killer is actually very good. Any average killer or below skill wise its not going to be better. If it was cheese and removed skill I'd simply recommend it on most players, but most players are not able to win 4 slugging, and that's because it is requiring more skill. I also wouldn't specific saying "bleeding out", the goal isn't bleeding out even though that "can" happen. The game ends on 4 down. IE as soon as 4 are down I immediately am hooking them all. The goal isn't to be toxic and watch people bleed. It's just efficiency.
If they are consistently getting downed over and over with so much pressure that none of them are on gens they are not playing well. This is not happening against good survivors unless you're on an killer that's an exception to the rules like Nurse, Blight, ect. Speaking of the general killer population here. "boom you're now in the 3v1" This is acting as if this is fast, that is a long bleed out timer. Way longer than it would take someone say tunneling someone out. Not the same.
Slugging strats do generate good pressure, that's their pro. Their con is they're high risk. If the killer isn't skilled enough to actually score the 4 down, they've gained nothing. The bleed out is so long they should have the gens long done by this point. So I wouldn't really consider 1v3 a point in the scenario.
And I appreciate the calm conversation we are having on it. As you can see in other posts here most let their emotions get the best of them and are coming at me significantly more aggressive/insulting instead of just a normal conversation like ours. As you mention here though it's usually not working unless it's an S tier killer and even then it's rough. That's because it takes a lot of skill. For the record I primarily play solo queue for survivor as well and I don't personally mind this play style. It usually doesn't work for them. I even have more time on survivor than killer.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088333#Comment_4088333
You claim that hard slugging is difficult and go on to say you think its the better strategy for a good killer. I still don't see you saying anything about avoiding this. You literally mention having streaks going for hard slugs, are you arguing against yourself?
And again I show four incredibly good survivors losing to a full four man slug without making many many mistakes. If you consider these four players bad survivors your expectations of how good a survivor must be are factually unreasonably high.
While I agree that blight and nurse are exceptions to most rules you go out of your way to describe yourself being successful full slugging on killers that are not blight and nurse.
And there it is, the survivor is being handheld commentary. All while having triple digit winstreaks on killer, lol.
Nothings arguing against itself here. I think if a killer is very good slugging is the better strat, depending on the killer anyway. For most killers its not though.
I've already explained this. Your example video is meaningless for the point here. Blight is an exceptions to all general rules. He is an exception to most statements, similar to Nurse.
Correct, and I explain this discrepancy based on skill.
You act as if this statements brought up randomly. It was only mentioned in response to your statement of "unreasonably high expectations on survivors". I simply disagreed and extrapolated why. As a general statement a game can be heavily biased in terms of balance against one side and the "weak" side still do very well when piloted correctly. Those aren't mutually exclusive. Exceptions don't make the rule. That would be like saying excessive sugar intake doesn't cause diabetes because I know someone who ate it excessively their whole life and didn't get diabetes. The rule is still true just because exceptions exist, especially when talking about something like a game with flexible variables like skill.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088325#Comment_4088325
Surely if it's only about skill, then that means people who go on winstreaks and are not using full slug strats are more skilled then? Because they actually have to deal with and play around the strongest perks in the game?
Which, if you factor that in, does technically make full slugging strats easier than playing normally. Meaning cogsturning's point still holds up imo
Not exactly. Most win streaks not slugging are tunneling, which I would consider cheese and is removing skill from the game. I'd say juggling 4 survivors without the benefits from hook related perks takes more skill than eating through some anti tunnel to make it a 1v3 asap. Your having to take the strongest perks in the game but that is offset by the ease you're gaining of the 1v3.
It does not, I don't agree with your interpretation for the reasons above.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088325#Comment_4088325
A skilled player can 2 hook everyone before killing and win. You're using Blindness and Undectectable, two uncounterable status affects, and slugging, which also has no basekit counters. And all of these are specifically anti-soloq tactics, and ones that people dont see coming because they expect a normal round. That's cheese. Cheese and bad matchmaking are the only reason winstreaks are possible, and that's exactly why both need fixing.
Not of equal skill or unless being on an S tier killer. I disagree as a general sentiment for the vast majority of the roster bar the survivors just having an exceptionally bad game.
Yes, they are counterable. They're just simply more counterable with a swf on coms, which the game isn't balanced for anyway.
It's not cheese, it works on lots of swf as well. Full slugging takes more skill than not full slugging. I think tunneling is cheese which is why I don't do that, I think it takes skill out of the game. Slugging does not take skill out of the game, I'd even argue it adds more.
Matchmaking is bad I agree.
Winstreaks mainly work though because the majority of players aren't very good on both sides.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088307#Comment_4088307
I have seen enough of your comments about how much killers struggle for it to be a fitting statement, even if you haven't used that exact term.
I actually run full slug builds on multiple killers you didn't mention very effectively. Namely Knight and Sadako, who also are both considered very low tier killers by most the community. By effective I mean a 165 win streak on Onryo and a 207 winstreak on Knight (this one's still going).
I don't see you mentioning avoiding anything, just that you play full slug builds, no strawman here just exactly what you said. If that isn't what you intended to state maybe you should proofread a bit more.
In general if a group is getting 4 man slugged they were either significantly worse players than the killer or they made many, many mistakes.
I don't see any caveats on your statement of it not working against good players and you even go into detail about how much success you have doing it on Knight and Sadako, clearly not S tier killers. The video shows four good players losing to a four man slug. You not accepting it as evidence is just further proof of how unreasonably high the expectations are on survivors.
That's your interpretation, not reality.
I literally did mention avoiding things, like literally lol. I proofread quite extensively, you just read what you want to see rather than reading it for objectively what it actually is.
I think you should read my posts again. As before, I did literally give caveats of it not working against good players. Like again, literally. I stated that it's only working if the survivors are significantly worse or making many, many mistakes.
I also think it's obvious to the majority of the dbd community that when we talk about balance killers like Nurse or Blight are complete exceptions to all rules and statements as they break the games balance. People don't usually need to add "except Nurse and Blight, I'm not talking about for these killers", it's a given.
I don't think someone understands DBD balance well at all if they think expectations are high on survivors in its current state. It's about as hand holdy as its ever been in the history of dbd.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088284#Comment_4088284
So you think it's completely fair, balanced, and acceptable to have something in the game that allows three digit winstreaks, a thing that should not be possible?
You're attributing winstreaks to slugging instead of the skill of the player.
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@BigWeeWee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088017#Comment_4088017
they hated him for speaking the truth… watching Hens abuse anti-camp and how much pressure you can create with slugs vs unhooked survivor who just activated 3 super strong perks. Krause is seems to be like significantly stronger slugging too, survivors lose infection on hook but keep it when slugged and head form is 40 metre terror radius for claurophobia. Extremely funny this got more downvotes then upvotes, devs need to incentive hooking base kit more because I've given ultra slug builds a shot and its lowkey soooo good on the already great killers but meh on the killers that need help.
Buff sprintburst
The downvotes don't surprise me, these forums have been heavily biased for a very long time. I'll speak the truth regardless, i dont mind the downvotes.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088284#Comment_4088284
You - killer is miserable
Also you - I have a 165 winstreak and a 207 game winstreak on "weak" killers
Maybe someday you will realize that those statements don't line up with each other.
Here's four incredibly skilled players losing to a four man slug without making many many mistakes while playing sweaty in a SWF. Its group copy cat so they don't have full control of their builds but they have an expo boon and exhaustion on everyone. WGLF, Made for This, Unbreakable and the like would have helped of course but you can't prepare for every tactic the killer can choose to employ. Expectations of how skilled survivors must be are simply ridiculously high in this game.
Did I say killer was miserable? Or did you just fill in the blanks with what you thought fit.
Second, I also referenced streaks playing in ways that avoid things that someone might deem "miserable" per your words.
So yes, they do line up if you understand what I "actually" said, not a strawmanned version.
You - Proceeds to show a literal Blight game of slugging to back up their point rofl. This is like using Nurse to talk about game balance when Nurse doesn't play the same game everyone else is. Yes, we all know Blight is an exception to all rules just like Nurse. This shows literally nothing. If it were up to me I'd nerf the S tier killers even.
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@Schnoaps said:
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Dead End
When within 20 meters of a survivor and you miss a basic attack, for 8 seconds:
• The survivor becomes exposed
• The survivor's camera is forced to look at you
• You are both hindered by 50%
Missed basic attack cooldowns are set to 130%.
Cooldown: 60 seconds
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Way overtuned again.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088017#Comment_4088017
Well except for all the killer perks which activate off of hooking people, plus the slug-only playstyle comes with its own unique frustrations.
Like if you can't keep control of the survivors and/or they're actually running anti-slug builds, it's really hard to make any headway. Like yeah you don't have to deal with Decisive Strike and Dead Hard, but you might have to deal with We're Gonna Live Forever + Made For This on multiple survivors. Also you have to snowball or you will most likely lose hard, there's no in-between like a 2k or something.
It's a playstyle that's propped up by the fact most people aren't running the very specific builds which counter it, since if the killer isn't doing it then you're basically playing perklesss. Also Coulrophobia, if that perk ever gets nerfed to not apply its effect to people being picked up from the downed state then it becomes a lot less viable.
Also, it's only really viable on Blight, Ghoul, and Hillbilly, since they're the only ones with the lethality and map traversal strong enough to keep on top of survivors who are helping each other up over and over, with a terror radius big enough to apply Coulrophobia and trigger Infectious Fright. Other killers can do it, of course, but it's much weaker on them.
So you're correct there are many of those perks for killer as well. The problem is that most those perks have been nerfed extensively over and over and over to the point where the pros/cons list of what you get from hooking vs what they get has tilted further and further to where it's now not nearly as worth. Disproportionate value basically.
I agree hard slugging is very difficult especially if they have anti slug. Not that you said this, but many like to call hard slugging as a way to win if you're bad at the game which I very much disagree with. In general winning from a 4 man slug is very difficult as it requires a high amount of skill to juggle everyone. However if you're a good player I do think it's the better route. If you're not a really good killer then it's still probably not. Killer dependent as well. The more and more punishing hooking has become though it's becoming more and more the better route. In general if a group is getting 4 man slugged they were either significantly worse players than the killer or they made many, many mistakes. It isn't just something that an average player is going to see lots of success with, especially if the survivors are of equal skill.
I actually run full slug builds on multiple killers you didn't mention very effectively. Namely Knight and Sadako, who also are both considered very low tier killers by most the community. By effective I mean a 165 win streak on Onryo and a 207 winstreak on Knight (this one's still going). There are more factors that make this play style good than just lethality and map traversal. Onryo it's the additional side objective they're having to manage while also juggling pick ups and gens. It becomes a lot, especially if you also throw in a hex build for a fourth objective to juggle. Knight is extremely good at it because for one he has Grim Iron Mask for 75 second Blinds that you can aggressively spam which is essentially a perma blindness on the entire survivor team. Even with swf's on coms it slows down their pick ups a ton with just a bonus of turning off all aura perks which are popular. Secondly, being able to permanently keep 2 people in chase all game is massive. That means if even 1 survivor is down that means the entire team is off gens. I'm chasing one, guard on another and last is looking for pick up. If you ever have 2 down, they are one mistake from gg, since if I have 2 down and a get a guard on one and I find the other, it's over. Throw on top of this Town Watch's Torch and I'm also essentially perma Undetectable all game as well. Just pointing out that it works on more killers than you'd think. While Coulrophobia is good for what you're talking about, it's not even needed. I don't run it on any of my slug builds.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088017#Comment_4088017
Yeah unfortunately you can preach something so true and you would still be disagreed with in the context of "morality" or something like wanting to win in a pvp game by adapting. While it might not be EVERY game, do people seriously want to risk others using their anti-tunnel offensively?
Which is why I like the silent down voters. Instead of blaming the current game state as to why some players play that way they blame the player.Yeah they essentially push for a state of the game that creates the exact gameplay they dislike.
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Midwich is my favorite map so I'm hyped for this.
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@Schnoaps said:
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Predatory Gaze
When a survivor is within your terror radius and is looking at you:
• They are exposed
• They are hindered by 3%
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
That would be completely and utterly broken.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088148#Comment_4088148
I'm not sure who "we" is. So is this an arms race? "We" have to invent the nuclear bomb as quick as possible so the world can live in fear of its power?
Yeah a five second video of a dog walking on its back legs is useless garbage. I don't know how you can believe any amount of art theft or environmental destruction is worth the brainless scrolling on Tiktok or Youtube that has done human society oh so much good. That's not worth a single drop of water. It's also cheapness at it's core. If you want a custom pfp then pay an artist or make one yourself. Same goes for huge companies that can afford artists. But if you doubt the effects modern industrialization has had on this planet then yeah, that's the end of the conversation. There are endless scientific articles on it.
I'd say nuclear bomb is not a good comparison but something that will advance a countries economy to be a superior one and world leader is. I'm intentionally keeping this and "we" vague as to not turn this conversation into one that could be construed as naming/shaming or targeting. An "arms race" per say in essence, yeah, I think it is.
There is LOTS of ai that is not something silly like a dog walking on its back legs so I wouldn't call that a genuine comparison. There is lots of ai art that is not art theft so I think calling all of it art theft isn't genuine. Lots of ai art isn't brainless tick tok or youtube scrolling. Again, I think that's putting it in the worst light possible. The more profitable ai is, the more money is put into its advancement that can make it accomplish important things for mankind. So I think looking at it as an extremely oversimplified version of "destroy environment for tik tok art slop" is a very, very inaccurate way of viewing it.
I don't doubt the effect of modern industrialization on the planet but I do disagree with you on the severity, and yes, there are endless scientific articles on this.
EDIT: I'll probably have to stop responding here as forum rules prohibit "controversial topics" which is extremely vague and who knows what that will apply to. This is starting to seem as a controversial topic potentially.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088139#Comment_4088139
AI doesn't create on its own. It gathers available information and bases its output on that. It can even be manipulated (eg if everyone on the internet collectively started posting "the sky is green", then when you later ask AI if the sky is blue, it will tell you no, it's green). So when AI creates art, it is viewed as theft by many artists as it will scour the internet and use what it finds. Which can include their own work.
Also, I'm confident the AI bubble will burst. It is very very expensive and resource heavy to run, to the point where AI was initially being sold at a loss so businesses would adopt it. The prices are now increasing in order for AI companies to start making a profit, and it will drive many businesses (particularly smaller ones) to drop it as it becomes cheaper to just use man power again. So i don't think there's any reason to embrace it, personally, as i don't believe it was sold honestly to the public and businesses.
"AI doesn't create on its own."
It does though.
"AI does not strictly "steal" existing art, nor does it merely copy and paste; instead, it mathematically learns the visual patterns, styles, and concepts from millions of training images to generate completely original, unique pieces"
"Also, I'm confident the AI bubble will burst. It is very very expensive
and resource heavy to run, to the point where AI was initially being
sold at a loss so businesses would adopt it. The prices are now
increasing in order for AI companies to start making a profit, and it
will drive many businesses (particularly smaller ones) to drop it as it
becomes cheaper to just use man power again. So i don't think there's
any reason to embrace it, personally, as i don't believe it was sold
honestly to the public and businesses."I guess this is merely our opinions but I completely disagree. I think AI is going to be the biggest advancement the world has ever seen. I think you're underestimating its profitability for companies compared to its costs.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088139#Comment_4088139
Just because a thing is happening doesn't mean you shouod let massive companies do what they want. AI needs restrictions before the damage is too high, and that doesn't happen by rolling over.
I don't know if that's the best comparsion. In just about a hundred years of refining oil we've detrimentalaly altered the natural course of climate on the earth. I can't say I see ugly music videos or chibi pfps as "worth the cost" as much of AI is being used to make useless garbage for social media. Humans have made many harmful things that we'd be better off without. Not all creations are good.
The problem is we put restrictions and others do not which leads to us falling behind in the ai race. So those restrictions solve nothing but losing in technological and economic advancement.
What would make it not a good comparison? We've caused some damage yes but what has been gained? Should we perpetually have stayed unadvanced? I also don't know if I'd agree on the severity of detriment to say we've altered the natural course.
I don't think I've implied all creations are good nor would anyone. Is music or art for entertainment purpose useless garbage? I guess I wouldn't agree on that.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4087856#Comment_4087856
Yeah if anything I was just shocked by how hideous it was. I didn't guess AI, I thought it was just ugly.
Ice Nine Kills has made light of using AI before so I'm not sure what to think here.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088126#Comment_4088126
There are many, many, many articles on why using programs that make fake art by auto-stealing other people's art is bad, not to mention the stress that these data centers are putting on the environment and the skyrocketing tech prices the RAM shortage is causing. BHVR also had a message at the start of the stream saying there was no AI, so if there was, even from partnered content, that's not a great look.
If there was a statement saying they don't and then they did I can understand that frustration. That's reasonable.
AI stealing art is an issue if it is, but I've seen tons of ai that does not. That seems more an issue with design than the concept of ai itself. Something that can be fixed.
Environment issues is reasonable but I guess I see the future advancement from ai as worth the cost.
The AI is also coming whether we like it or not so I guess I view embracing it as the best option lest we will simply fall behind the advancement of those that will not slow down its development.
This makes me think of like pushing back against the discovery of engines and using gasoline. Bad for the environment? Yeah, but the other option was staying using horse and buggy and be left behind technologically. It just doesn't make sense to me.
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@pidgeon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088126#Comment_4088126
I and many other people personally don't like ai as it damages the environment, takes away peoples jobs, and my personal reason is that it just doesn't have a soul so its lowkey kinda scary to a lot of people. Especially when you pair all this with the news and whatnot feeding into every story of "Oh this ai tried to escape and hack the world" but in reality the story was "This ai was to to try to escape containment. This was done in order to see its capabilities and limit them ect." So it essentially just feeds into the hysteria even more.
Other than those reasons I would be fine with ai if we found an eco friendly way to use it, whilst still keeping most peoples jobs, and don't make it sentient lmao.
Billions of inventions have taken away jobs in the past and whether we find it scary or not it's coming so that seems weird to me as well.
Only legitimate things seems like the environmental one. However with how fast ai is advancing exponentially I would surmise it's going to solve a lot of world challenges including its own environment impact. As mentioned before though it's coming whether we want it or not from all over the world so if there's not going to be a stop to it the best thing would be to at least be at the forefront of it lest we fall obsolete behind the people pushing it further.
I guess I don't see the issue.
-
What's the issue with using ai?
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@Royval said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4087490#Comment_4087490
there isn’t anything wrong with slugging but the playstyle of Twins is horrible to face. Most players I play with hate the killer.
Why is that? I don't see any flaw in their design other then they should make picking up quicker.
-
Why would they hook when the game punishes them for doing so by activating dozens of second chance perks? It actively encourages them not to hook. This isn't even counting the entire gens worth of time lost in pick up, carry, and hook animations or the risk of flashlight saves you could completely ignore. They don't really have a reason to hook.
-
Twins does need improvements and bug fixes. However, there's nothing inherently wrong with slugging.
-
Yeah I loved playing old Freddy. Current Freddy is just so boring to me.
-
That would be so much cooler and immersive. The maps in general lack any horror vibe and are way too bright.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086934#Comment_4086934
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086637#Comment_4086637
Seriously? I'm not trying to be rude here but I don't know how I can respectfully interact with someone like you so I'm just gonna bounce.
You can add time without it causing an issue with the games end game collapse timer. I don’t understand what’s difficult about my explanation. If you think that will cut it too close to the collapse timer and that’s your issue, just say it. No need to be passive aggressive. I don’t personally think it’s gonna be that close to be an issue.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086686#Comment_4086686
Have the feedback form be done in game so that it is directly linked to the account and feedback could be sorted based on playtime (or any other data point you want). They could still have open feedback, but there's a pretty clear way they could link feedback to the actual PTB account.
That would be a great idea.
-
Perks. On both sides. Most perks on both sides are severely undertuned.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086926#Comment_4086926
Mmm… okay I'm getting the feeling you really don't understand how endgame collapse works if you think increasing the duration of blood warden is fine.
I understand the time limit on the collapse. What I was suggesting isn’t free extra time. There’s lots of room to add time without it being an issue. The base is 2minutes and you’re generally getting significantly more than that.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086735#Comment_4086735
Okay… so I guess I'll have to explain this a bit more if you don't know how endgame builds work. But it's really simple. You just put on noed (or be an insta down killer) and no way out. You open one of the exit gates and the survivors now have a two minute timer to escape. No way out will protect the other gate for 12~60 seconds which is already half of the time. Throw on remember me as well and you are looking at maybe twenty seconds assuming that you got some decent stacks. And if hypothetically the survivors come to your gate then you insta down them and just hook them. even with endgame collapse slowing when someone is downed or hooked you would be dealing with no real chance of escape if you buff the duration any longer.
I’ve got almost 12k hours in the game, I know how the build works. Your build still doesn’t make it meta. The real value you’re getting is from noed, not blood warden.
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@Drumbeat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086592#Comment_4086592
I hate spirit cause she's an accessibility nightmare the fact her phasing counterplay is 100% sound based makes us people with hearing conditions impossible to play against her
That’s a totally valid and reasonable point. First time I’ve heard that reasoning from anyone.
-
Yeah stealth killers have been generally on the weak side for a very long time. Map design hasn't been good to them and swf call outs butcher their play style. As you mentioned as well for some reason they always want to add lots of sound to stealth killers negating the entire point. It's the trend we've had for years of overdoing the amount of counter play available for things not strong enough to warrant it. Stealth killers across the board could use buffs.
I'd also like to see some new stealth killers. We haven't had a real stealth killer in a long time, just killers with "some" stealth aspects.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086637#Comment_4086637
No, sorry but it's already in a fairly precarious spot where you just automatically win sometimes if you use it. Any further buffs would be insanely broken with other perks.
Yeah sometimes you get 1 kill from it and the other 75% of the time it does absolutely nothing. It currently leans more towards meme build than practicality.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086661#Comment_4086661
Its a function of how long it takes BHVR to do anything. First of all btw, lich got more nerfs than buffs overall, so that is a bad example. Blight also release in 4.2 which was released on September 8th 2020. They didn't fix his camera being way too low to the ground until 4.6.0 which was 6 months later. And then every other change has been a nerf pretty much. So again, a bad example.
The point is BHVR moves slower than a glacier at making any kind of changes. So when they nerf something out of PTB to live that the general consensus around it is that it isn't OP to begin with (remember, we are comparing this to things like, nurse and blight and ghoul). Like, was the PTB version of jason better than nurse? blight? ghoul? no, i think we can all agree that is the case. So why does he need to be nerfed then? What about him warranted it?
So now, we have to sit with it for at least 3 months, before they even acknowledge (and that is if we are lucky) that maybe he is a bit undertuned, but then we probably need to wait 6-9 months to see any changes. And again, that is if we are lucky. Often it takes them literal years before they do anything.
" Like, was the PTB version of jason better than nurse? blight? ghoul?
no, i think we can all agree that is the case. So why does he need to be
nerfed then? What about him warranted it? ""So now, we have to sit with it for at least 3 months, before
they even acknowledge (and that is if we are lucky) that maybe he is a
bit undertuned, but then we probably need to wait 6-9 months to see any
changes. And again, that is if we are lucky. Often it takes them literal
years before they do anything."Yeah this is a lot of my points I agree with as well.
Unless there is a "fun" factor problem for either side I don't see why anything should be getting nerfed from the PTB if it isn't S tier. Anything at A tier or below doesn't need nerfs.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086684#Comment_4086684
To be fair there aren't many examples of BHVR buffing killers after release because there didn't need to be many. Among the more recent killer roster, The First, Krasue, Springtrap, Ghoul, Dracula, Chucky and Xenomorph all released in a fairly strong or really strong state. With Houndmaster being a good example of a killer that did receive buffs very quickly after release.
And if we want to count killers that got buffed from ptb to live, because there was feedback that they might be too weak, Krasue was giga buffed to a ridiculous state, Ghoul got buffed, just like Dracula. Plus after his release, Dracula got some nice buffs as well in a patch shortly after his release.
Unknown is the most recent killer that to this day is arguably just ok and nothing more. And DnD Vecna needed to wait a bit for his buffs, although he always did get some nerfs alongside those buffs as well.
So I would argue BHVR's track record when it comes to killer balance within the last few years has been quite good, at least when looking at the killers that released during that time. Of course there is no denying that BHVR is still too slow when it comes to killer balance, or balance in general.
There's a few solid in there, but the vast majority of the roster either didn't get buffed, were nerfed, or the buffs were extremely minor/irrelevant. If they didn't make it to A tier after, that makes them weak. B tier and below in DBD is bad against remotely good players. If we look across the spectrum of killers the vast majority are not A tier. If the majority are below A tier in the past few years I wouldn't personally call that good at all. If we want to say they've done just better the last few years comparatively I could agree with that, but on a grand scale I would not say good. They can be doing better and still bad at the same time basically. Dracula and Ghoul are some good examples though I'd agree. Krasue after being over buffed got over nerfed and isn't in a good spot right now so I wouldn't agree with her.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086684#Comment_4086684
So why are you making decisions for me on what I think is you dismissing me? You are hilarious.
As for you moving the goalposts, how about this, I'm gonna continue being excited for this chapter and you can keep moaning, if he is weak he is weak, I'll see it for myself.
literally amusing people think they've figured a character out in less than a month of test servers.I didn't make any decisions for you. You just said I had dismissed something when I hadn't.
No ones moaning. Literally just pointed out we shouldn't dismiss people's opinions because we assume they didn't test the PTB. I don't think that's a monumental statement.
I don't think anyone claims to have figured out the killer from a PTB, just impressions from playing them on the PTB. The point of a PTB.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086670#Comment_4086670
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086676#Comment_4086676
Feedback for this game has no officially attached form submission. It's just people on the internet shouting. It's why the system is so flawed. There's no way to know how many accounts are the same person spamming, or which actually played the ptb, or who's parroting a CC. So how do they determine who to listen to?
Probably no way they could. Makes it hard to get accurate feedback for sure. It is pretty much just internet shouting.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086669#Comment_4086669
He isn't going to be "weak" though… we don't know what he will be like in actual matches yet, the community hasn't had time to figure him out.
and if you want to not be dismissed, don't try it with me in the first place, it works both ways.
But you didn't answer my question, where are you basing your tier lists off? Your own opinion? If so it would mean we should probably wait and see what the community thinks of him, BHVR will buff or nerf him if he needs it.
Best thing we can do rn is wait for it to go to live and give feedback though.If you disregard all testing in the PTB because it's "not real matches" then that defeats a lot of the point of the PTB. Part of the PTB is for power level testing.
No need to be so aggressive. I didn't dismiss anything. You dismissed people because of assumptions and because they cared about things you didn't.
My personal tier lists are based on my own testing. So if it's my own testing I get dismissed because we need the communities opinion and if it's based on CC's we also need the communities opinion. So in other words any opinions from the PTB are completely invalid. Gotcha. This is dismissing a lot of the PTB's intent.
"BHVR will buff or nerf him if he needs it."
Again their track record shows this is not the case and I didn't get examples of otherwise. I got Blight, which is valid and Lich 2 years later. That's it.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086607#Comment_4086607
While I cannot speak with certainty, as I did not access the PTB, the nerfs do not seem as severe as to warrant an outcry.
Maybe the built-in anti-camp could be too heavy-handed. But otherwise? The changes seem reasonable.
As for perks, well, I do agree with you on that front. Silent Shadow is his only good perk, and even that is basically just a retread of Furtive Chase. Rampage and his Hex are utterly worthless.
Yeah I agree they aren't that severe and the anti camp component is fine. I'm not really arguing as to their severity as much as the principle itself.
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@XtremeDBDForums said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086654#Comment_4086654
She doesn't take skill, I just said that. Its complete 50s and having good ears, that's not skill, that's just luck and physical health. there's no experience to develop, the more you play her, you're not improving at anything. Which is the opposite of skill
In terms of generic 50's, pallets are pr much it. Specific powers like Spirits are just complete 50's. You can't react to what you can't see, and the audio is also not direct enough to determine where exactly she is
Location pin pointing is a skill. Also, there a large skill gap in knowing how as survivor to give the Spirit specific sounds to manipulate what she's hearing and misdirect her. I do it all the time. Playing as and against you are improving at this. Of course not when you dc every time though.
Pallets and windows 50/50's which is the vast majority of the entire game. So if someone doesn't like 50/50's that's literally the game.