Blueberry
Blueberry
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Their criteria for 4.4 vs 4.6 is completely inconsistent, that's why it's confusing. Multiple killers are 4.4 that should be 4.6 and multiple 4.6 that should be 4.4. It's a mess with lots of contradictions currently.
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It's extremely boring right now. Zero skill, just pre drop and hold w all game. Most the loops are unplayable leaving the pallet up.
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Let's start with the 110% and test it out. Then see if we also need the pallet break token loss.
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Yes.
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She also gets completely countered by SWF with little counter play on the Krasue's part. Like you Leech someone, switch to head form, and then their teammate comes to body block the head. What do you do as Krasue? You're just in a lose/lose scenario.
The only thing you can do as Krasue in this situation is waste time that you don't have swapping back into body form as well as now giving survivors even more mushrooms.
This scenario has no counter play for Krasue. Bad design.
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I think people are still hung up on how good she was before the nerfs that they haven't actually assessed her since then so they just say she's busted still even though after her latest nerfs she really isn't that great. The loss of Leeched on hook hurt her mushroom control a lot. There's a reason no one's playing her. The Leeched removal on hook was good in that it weakened tunneling, but the end result is that it just nerfed her too much overall. If they just made it so that a random mushroom on the map is removed on hook then it would keep the tunnel prevention we wanted, incentivize hooking, but not nerf her mushroom pressure. Her current state just has Leeched too easily removed.
I'm also personally not a fan of "auto mushroom spawning" rather than just when I swap forms. It removes alternative play styles and feels like you're forced into playing her in only one way, the way they want you to play her. You play well and try to limit swaps to limit their mushrooms? Oh well doesn't matter, they're gonna get those mushrooms anyway.
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The suspense on this is big. The final result of this patch going live is gonna have huge ripples. Unless it's just a 90% revert anyway.
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Not only is it not overbearing, but it's still weak. Hexes need big improvements to their core functionality.
Penti also got thrown in the dumpster with the aura handholding.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026985#Comment_4026985
Sorry, but Legion buff will do close to nothing against not completely stupid players. He has similiar addon and played with it some time and it only worked against completely clueless potatoes.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XY26EBHLJOAQ/7b90e2175c-87f6-4826-9691-4d44c15bd17b-7d.png
Onryo suggestion is nice and I will be glad to see it, but, once again, it will do very little against normal survivors, because her core problem is in her counterplay, which makes you basicly powerless, when is not ignored. She will be better, but still pretty weak and it's about it.
That's why I say there is a design limitation, which can't be solved with only number tweaks, some status effects. And I'm glad that they give some rework to Trapper because of it. You can give all his best addons basekit and he still will be mid killer at best.The options aren’t useless or make them S tier. I’m not implying little things like my examples are going to be game swinging for them. They would be improvements that would make them better though. Also yes, I know Legions addon and no, it’s not the same thing. Oblivious hurts his Fenzy and Oblivious still lets them hear him Frenzy cancel if he’s trying to double back. Very different.
I know that doesn’t fix Onryos core problems, that wasn’t the goal.I feel like if my idea for them isnt making them all the sudden viable vs a 4 man sweat squad you think it’s pointless. My point is simply that you can improve them without hurting bad survivors more, that’s it. It wasn’t to make them all the sudden strong viable or fix their core problems.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4027006#Comment_4027006
I play Pyramid Head: I can leverage the farthest distance placement to my advantage, especially using gens to get a rough layout of map dimensions.
Edit: If they're also against a map wall, that also limits the routes of access for rescue.
Hence the reason I did not say "farthest distance". I specifically didn't say that because of exactly that reason.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
ngl I am probably gonna get downvoted for this lmao but I use this abandon on killers I really don't like going against like Ghoul if they keep slugging.
That's what everybody does.
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Yeah the whole abandon system is a complete mess and needs changes. It's gone way past it's original purpose of avoiding toxicity (which is a good feature), to now it's become so flexible that it's just a built in "go next faster" feature and allows people to bale on their teammates early. It's literally a dev sanctioned allowed DC feature rofl. It also for some wild reason won't let the killer abandon even after everyone else has abandoned and it's all bots left without giving up his win?! Like what? Who's idea was this? The killer is punished when all the survivors leave and forced to be the janitor doing clean up against all bots.
Oh and this isn't even getting into that our stats given to us on the official dbd stat tracker website are completely worthless because of this abandon feature since it doesn't count any of those matches on it. It's just misleading players.
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Survivor is moved across the map and away from killer on unhook.
That easy. Now there's none of this complicated nonsense with Endurance, Elusive, and aura reading being abusable to be aggressive. It's just made unnecessary as a feature. You're put away from the killer and he has no idea where you're at. Another assym I play has this feature and it works pretty well.
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026993#Comment_4026993
It exists but you don't seem to know that when you play killer other killers will have their mmr changed too but way less than the one that you played gets. So if you play one a ton the others will eventually get to be quite the same level as the one you played more.
That's what I said.
" Their % of main mmr to other killers mmr is way too small to justify preventing killer swapping as it was supposed to."
It's there, just definitely not "way less" as you're saying.
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Well the original reason it was done was supposed to be because of separate killers mmr's. Which would have made sense. Realistically though that just doesn't exist. I can pick a killer I've never played a single game on and it's still throwing me against groups with thousands of hours that my mains would be getting matched against. Their % of main mmr to other killers mmr is way too small to justify preventing killer swapping as it was supposed to. I don't mind still preventing us from swapping if they gave us actual separate killer mmr's.
It's super annoying trying to learn killers I'm new on and I still have to face high hour sweat squads. Some of the mmr from my mains applying because of general knowledge I get, but it needs to be significantly less than it currently is.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026782#Comment_4026782
There is also a "data" limitation for Bhvr. Killlers like Legion, Wraith, Pig and Sadako are low MMR Stompers. Bhvr is afraid to buff those killers and make the new play experience worse.
I don't agree with that but seeing how they do spreedsheet balance it doesn't surprise me.
I have a solution to some of that. Read what I responded to Fussy and tell me what you think of that as a potential solution.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026871#Comment_4026871
Well, it requires at least soft rework then, like with Mayers, and it's not that easy. Safe original identity of killer, keep design aspects that people wasted time on, create something new on top of it without destroying original idea and make it not too easy to get value from.
Also yeah, Rickprado is right, some killers, especially these who have second built-in objectives, perform way better no matter what. That's why I doubt we will ever see Onryo or Freddy (yeah, I know he is not bad) buffs sadly.
Well that would all depend what we consider "soft" reworks I suppose. Like as an example I like the idea of using an effect we've rarely seen in Deafened. You could attach that to Legions Frenzy hit and it's applied just until the Deep Wounds is removed. I like this because a lot of the time Legions just Frenzy hit and then immediately run to spread it to the next survivor while that survivor immediately starts mending. With this change it adds more skill to Legion(and more decision making) with the potential for more strength. You could just continue to spread your Frenzy hits or you could break LoS and cancel your Frenzy to double back. That survivor now has to play smart on if you actually left and he wants to start mending or play safer because he could be doubling back. The Deafened prevents him from not only hearing the TR but also his sound of canceling his Frenzy. Bad Legions aren't gonna utilize something like this well but good players could. There is a slight base buff here at base as well since the Deafened can make it easier to mind game at loops since they won't hear his footsteps, vaulting sound ect but this type of buff on someone as bad as Legion doesn't seem unreasonable. Maybe this is what you would consider a soft rework I'm not sure, but it's as simple as throwing a status effect to it, so barely any work at all and identity unchanged.
While just one example this concept could be applied to many of the bad killers. Generally speaking, buffs that are only buffs if the killers is skilled enough to utilize it. This leaves it buffing those weak killers at higher level (where they're weak) but not really buffing them at lower levels (where killers typically do fine).
"Also yeah, Rickprado is right, some killers, especially these who have second built-in objectives, perform way better no matter what. That's why I doubt we will ever see Onryo or Freddy (yeah, I know he is not bad) buffs sadly."
Unfortunately I generally agree. They are unlikely to buff any secondary objective killer even though they do very poorly against any remotely competent player just because they do well against bad players. Realistically this shouldn't be a good reason, it just means we need better tutorials and things for educating new players on what to do. But yeah. This is similarly why I think they don't want to buff the stealth killers either even though they are generally all very weak. This all said, I do think these type of killers could be buffed for the reason I mentioned earlier. You buff them in a way where the buff requires skill to utilize it. Bad/low skill killers aren't able to utilize this so it isn't making them stronger at the lower levels like we're worried about but makes them more viable at the high levels. Just tie the "buff" behind skill requiring things, not just "number is higher", which would buff low skill killers, which is what we don't want.
Like another example. If you buffed Onryo's phasing in and out while demanifested. No low skill Onryo players are timing this for mind games, even most high skill Onryo's aren't doing this. Not specifically saying this is what they should do, but just giving an example here. That wouldn't really hurt low skill survivors but it would help high skill Onryo's in high mmr, which is what we want.
So skill requiring buffs, not free buffs is the goal here. That's how you buff them at higher mmr's without hurting the low levels. Clown failed because it was just free buffs that all Clowns could use for free.
Total tangent but I really wish we'd see more secondary objective(macro) and stealth killers. Those are my favorite kinds but it feels like we haven't had many in ages. All we get is dashslop or anti loop killers over and over. Not my cup of tea. I like Onryo, Pig, Knight type stuff.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026782#Comment_4026782
Because there is a design limitation for every killer. Look at Clown's case: he was A tier for some short time recently, but at what cost? Braindead easy to pick up, braindead easy to be good with, very strong. And that's the good example of how you can't just tweak numbers for low tier killers without making them stupid at some aspect of their power. To some degree, of course.
Like, let's take Legion and give him 1s fatigue instead of current 2.5s. And make his Frenzy start with 6.0m/s. He will be A tier for sure, but, once again, at what cost? Once again, braindead easy to pick up, braindead easy to be good with, very strong.
But, honestly, it's the way the game goes anyway. Survivors become easier with almost every patch and it's strange to ask killers to be very time and skill investings to perform well, while other role slowly becomes an auto-pilot.I don’t think there’s a design limitation with each killer. The issues you’re describing are very easily solved. It’s because you don’t just do number tweaks. You make changes that require skill to see the buffs. This solves the issues of too much power that’s too easy to access. IE changes that high skill players can access with skill that low skill players aren’t able to.
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Idk why it’s so hard to get buffs for all the low tier killers so we can get some variety. I don’t know why they’re so reluctant.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
As Blueberry says I wish they'd deal with those lot so we can have actual nice perks on our other killers.
Yeah I wish we’d nerf the top outliers like nurse, blight so we can finally improve many things. So many things are nerfed unnecessarily hard for everyone else just because those outliers can abuse it. I’m not sure what their reluctance to do so is related to. Maybe it’s so they say it’s not pay to win since the better killer is free or maybe it’s they don’t want to hurt the comp scene, idk what it is.
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Yeah we need to stop having so many things held back for the majority of the roster just because nurse/blight exist. It's ruining things for everyone else.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026447#Comment_4026447
What I said was killers argue they need to, I never once said I agree with that assessment. Let me be clear right here - I absolutely do not agree. I win plenty of killer games and I don't tunnel. Tunneling is a crutch, not a necessity.
Survivors generally do not need to in order to win, but there are many times killers need to in order to win.
I'd argue it's the other way around. If survivors are focusing on gens then tunneling can easily result in just a 1K. If the killer is chewing through survivor hook states then unless you're able to knock out gens quickly, you're all dead.
Bar some exceptions, survivors generally have significantly more time to waste than killer does. Their times are not even remotely equivalent in terms of objectives.
I disagree. The pace of the match is set by the killer. Survivors only ever have as much time to do anything as the killer allows unless they're not playing to win or there's a skill discrepancy. Just because most modern DBD killer players have forgotten what gen pressure is and just want to hop directly from chase to chase doesn't mean survivors have all the time in the world to do gens (provided the killer would actually bother to chase them off).
I just fundamentally disagree with you on all this then. There's no point in the conversation then if we aren't going to agree on basic fundamentals. I think these are core understandings of how the game works that we're not going to see eye to eye if we can't even agree on that.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026432#Comment_4026432
Killer players advocating for leaving tunneling alone frequently argue they need to in order to win games. Do you not think survivors focus on gens in order to win games? It's a race against time and a battle of attrition - if one side doesn't have time to screw around then the other side certainly doesn't. What specific reasons are you referring to?
Your first two sentences just agreed with what I'm saying.
"they need to in order to win games" 'in order to win games"
This is my point. Survivors generally do not need to in order to win, but there are many times killers need to in order to win. You said it yourself. Now I do think there's some exceptions in regards to the few top tier killers that I think need nerfs, but I'm speaking as a generality.
"if one side doesn't have time to screw around then the other side certainly doesn't."
Bar some exceptions, survivors generally have significantly more time to waste than killer does. Their times are not even remotely equivalent in terms of objectives.
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This has the fundamental flaw of assuming survivors rushing gens and killers tunneling are for the same reasons. They're not.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026090#Comment_4026090
That change to completely remove leech off hook did hurt her massively as that inadvertently make her produce more mushrooms since hitting them 3 times in head form to fully apply leech again takes too much time.
This is kind of my thoughts as well. I think the leech removal on hooks to prevent tunneling made sense, but the adverse affect of that was basically adding free mushroom cleanses every match which destroyed her overall map mushroom control. I think she was so good on release that people just have a hard stance on her being so good that they won’t change their mind even though she isn’t nearly as good now. She’s like B tier at best to me now.
They should reduce the map spawn mushrooms in some way to compensation for the added hook cleanses.
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Dang how did Krasues pick rate get that low?? I’ve personally only seen one in the last week of playing basically all day everyday.
The rest seem pretty expected to me.
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@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4025985#Comment_4025985
HHonestly, If one side is to win by eliminating the rest(3 people at the least) then it should be balanced for it to be a team vs 1 and not (1v1vv1v1) v 1, balancing any game, where one side has different wining conditions (the amount that survive in this case) needs more finesse in my honest opinion
But people think im crazy if I were to say this
Well with unknown mmr changes coming I’m hoping that one of the things is focusing it more as a team game. They need to reward mmr ranking as a team, not just individual survival. So like if I loop the killer for five gens but die and my three teammates get out that would be an mmr win for me, not a loss as it currently is. The “win” needs to based on more total team result than just you individually. Obviously we can have the mmr “score” influenced up or down by individual behavior but the core highest influence should be the team result.
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I know I’m in the minority but I’d like if we could all chat together.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Franklin's should just be reverted, though you'd have to adjust it a bit with the charge system on the new items. Iirc, Built to Last now basically just rounds to the nearest whole number (ie. first recharge on a fog vial gives 2 charges back since 99% of 2 is 1.98, which rounds to 2), and Streetwise does the same thing, so you could do something similar here.
As for Hoarder, it does need a buff, but making it work on killer items again would be the wrong way to go. It's pretty established at this point that perks aren't meant to impact killer powers. I've been a big advocate for a while of adding more chests to the map by default (ie. 5 total instead of 3) which would indirectly buff a lot of chest perks but Hoarder would probably still need something extra. Definitely remove the 64m range limit (it's not strong enough to not be a map-wide effect) and maybe add an aura reveal when opening or rummaging a chest for like 10 seconds or something
Those are some good suggestions. I like the idea of map wide, more chests and aura read. This could work. It would make the Human agreed combo a bit better too which is currently bad.
I understand their idea of items/perks not directly countering killer powers but I don’t quite agree with just “not working”. I think certain killers having unique synergies with perks that make them better is good design.
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I also think some of the balancing issues stem from balancing killer like it’s a 1v4 but balancing survivor like it’s a 1v1v1v1v1. They do this to improve the individual survivors experience which makes sense but it has the consequences of destroying balance since it’s “supposed” to be a team game. BHVR balances in a way where they REALLY don’t want survivor to need teamwork at all.
Also weird balancing metrics. Like in a 1v4 assym game the “1”(killer) perks are supposed to be individually more impactful than the “4” since there’s multiple of them. Like take healing as an example. We’ll Make It is 100% healing for 90seconds, while Leverage is 30% for 60seconds. For how an assym is supposed to be this makes no sense. Those values should be reversed. Leverage should’ve been the one at 100% for 90. This is just one example, this is repeated for many similar perks.
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@ImperatorHaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4025937#Comment_4025937
I hope there is a dev reading this because these are all great ideas to play around with.
Shorter teleport cooldown based on how many weakened survivors there are actually forces survivors to seek him/his hallucinations out otherwise map pressure would be insane. This essentially creates a killer-based objective that is important to remove in order to survive. Like Neme with syringes, Wesker with spray, Pig with traps, Plague with fountains, etc. If they want to keep his UVX as a two hitter then great, but there needs to be something that stalls survivors from getting gens if you're spending most of your time getting punished in chases.
Yeah in order for a killer to be good they either need really good map mobility or built in game slow down. Unfortunately we have really seen an effective game slow down strong killer but that’s because it’s usually not tuned high enough imo.
Some of his addons are creative just most of them are way undertuned. Like 20 seconds of oblivious is worthless, that should be 60. Effects in the range of the clones is just too short to have any impact, needs to be significantly larger. Any effect with interacting with them is just mediocre since you don’t control that, they do. Like if that blindness was just in a radius around clones and that range was double what it currently is then we might be talking. Matchbox was also just gutted.
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@ImperatorHaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4025907#Comment_4025907
Having weakened slowly fill back up is a brilliant idea. Or, instead of applying the hindered effect when UVX passes through a survivor, have it applied when survivors are weakened until cleansed. Essentially like Wesker with a 4% hindered when infecting survivors and requiring them to use the spray.
But I agree, he is a high risk-low reward killer that can easily have all progress removed in a matter of seconds. In his current state, the best way to play him is by ricocheting around the map for pressure, but his teleport cooldown severely hinders his mobility on top of the easy hallucination dispels.
His add-ons should round out his weaknesses in some way, but most revolve around teleporting which, again, is useless with easy dispels.
I would vote for slightly increasing the aoe on his UVX, but most people complain about him shooting through walls so I imagine if this was added with other buffs people would freak.
I agree. That hinder effects actually an interesting idea as well.
Since he can’t really control his clone spawns realistically I don’t think a shorter to cooldown would be too much. They could even make it a skill requirement. Say like his teleport cooldown is shorter per survivor with Weakened. This way the shorter cooldown is only rewarded for good plays.
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I agree, I think the emblem system was better too. Even with the few flaws it did have.
Essentially they want killers to care about hooks instead of kills while still balancing for kills. It’s a contradiction. If you want killers to focus on hooks, then balance and grade mmr around hooks.
They don’t want players to care about their mmr either but this is flawed. That’s like telling a league player to not care about their rank. This isn’t how games work. People should see their mmr, it makes them want to grind the game to improve and move up the latter.
The games being treated and balanced like it’s a party game when it’s not.
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@Rickprado said:
I really believe that answering someone with the name "dbdiskillersided" won't take us far in this discussion, LOL
Well, i'm an Unknown main. Most of us who play him complain of rate the effort/reward ratios is completely against this killer since using your power more punishes you than helps you in some scenarios.
Yeah, UVX need some changes. I think what harms the most Unknown its his cooldown + weakened duration. If the cooldown was shorter and the weakened duration was longer Unknown would be in a much better spot.
That’s a good point I forgot about regarding the cooldown. Cooldowns too long and weakened is way too fast to remove. Fixing both those would go a long way.
What do you think of my idea on Weakened if not fully removed after a time period (think trickster time period before the lacerate meters degrades) it starts to slowly fill back up. This would make it a bit harder to remove without actually increasing the time.
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I’ve wanted to make a post like this as well. Unknown is so frustrating to play. I hear this sentiment echoed by most players as well. I want to like this killer so much, he’s aesthetically cool. He’s just way, way too punishing for what skill is required with him. All of your ideas sound great.
I’d personally like the Weakened state to not hold its progress state from looking at the Unknown, meaning if they don’t cleanse Weakened entirely then after some time it will slowly fill back up. The blunt truth is that weakened is just way too easy to remove at the moment for the amount of time invested to Weaken them in the first place. Maybe reduce the range they can stare at him from as well.
I also think his teleportation cooldown should be reduced significantly so he can be bouncing around the map for pressure better. He already cant efficiently put his copies where he wants so this doesn’t sound unreasonable or abusable.
Lastly, his addons are trash. So many of them are so bad. Huge buffs to a lot of these.
I’d argue the aoe on his UVX could be a tiny bit larger but I’m probably asking for too much at this point.
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This was hilarious haha. Well done.
Tbh I feel like PH could use more interesting things added to his kit. Like I could just do Dracula with hellfire for almost the same thing but he just also gets a ton more.
Maybe something more interesting with the trails.
This is kind of a power creep issue in general. Quite a few older killers kits feel outdated and power crept by newer killers that just do so much more. Like if PH came out in 2025 to dbd he would’ve had an entire extra component on top of his current power probably.
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90% is quite hyperbolic. It’s also requiring downing a player, hooking and it needs to be fresh. The perk doesn’t seem unreasonable atm. Let it bake and see if it needs addressing next patch. It’s also the only thing making the bloodlust have any real value.
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Until those stats start including abandons they are completely worthless and don’t represent anything. It’s just misleading people.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
No reason to allow them to work with killer powers. Just creates a mess and means several killer powers would need nerfing to compensate.
If franklins let you force a survivor to drop a tape on Onryo for example, or lose an EMP against Singularity, or drop Pinhead’s box again, these killers would need their powers nerfed in general to compensate, which no one really wants. And although it’s fine for Wesker and Nemesis, it’s not worth adding another layer of complexity to the game where certain perks interact with certain killer powers and you have to memorize which ones.
Well I already said it wouldn't work with Pinhead and how would that be OP on Onryo or Singu? We literally had tape destruction on a previous patch and that was totally fine, which this isn't even that, it's just dropping.
That doesn't sound like complexity at all, just adding creative perks for killer variety. That's no more complicated than any other new perk.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4025554#Comment_4025554
You haven't given me any other rational reason. It just appears you like your items and don't like things countering them. Offer me an actual reason otherwise.
I have. What you currently get for an M1 is a dropped item the survivor can retrieve. That's an adequate reward. What you used to get was eventual item depletion. One perk that could remove every item with very little effort. I'm still waiting for you to give me a survivor equivalent to that. Which perk can at least temporarily disable killer add-ons?
Franklins is not removing your items, you can just pick them up again
Are we pretending that old Franklin's didn't deplete your item's charges?
I mean, this hole thing comes off as you missing the old version of a perk and not wanting to accept that it was changed. Franklin's was changed because of Fog Vials, yes, which were then changed to have charges. So Franklin's could come back, yet it hasn't.
Perks are also more impactful than just your items
Are they? Because a medkit with a syringe is better to me than Self-Care, and a commodious toolbox with a wire spoil and a BNP is better to me than Deja Vu.
No one runs Penti after it was gutted
You keep using absolutes that just aren't true. I just went against someone using Pentimento maybe a week ago. My last batch of survivor matches included a Krasue using Franklin's. I still encounter a decent amount of users.
That's like telling a survivor just win all your chases bro and you have nothing to complain about
If a single hit is a challenge for you I don't know what to tell you.
Killers universally hate Exhaustion perks, are those justified in getting gutted as well?
Fine by me, but if we're being fair while also affecting a whole classification and not just one perk, either aura read or gen regress has gotta go too.
I'm still waiting for you to tell me what's more skilled than hitting a survivor, 3rd time asking. You keep calling it not skill requiring and so easy yet can't give me an answer.
"I have. What you currently get for an M1 is a dropped item the survivor can retrieve. That's an adequate reward. What you used to get was eventual item depletion. One perk that could remove every item with very little effort. I'm still waiting for you to give me a survivor equivalent to that. Which perk can at least temporarily disable killer add-ons?"
I literally already did. I gave you anti totem perks, and that's even more than you asked, it's not temporary disable, it's permanent! Vigil basically basically most debuffs near irrelevant. Most survivor heal perks apply give or take 4x the debuff anti heal perks are doing more than negating them entirely.
"Are we pretending that old Franklin's didn't deplete your item's charges?"
Are we pretending that happened in one hit or that you didn't use your item before multiple hits after picking it up? This sounds like skill issues by the survivor.
"Franklin's was changed because of Fog Vials, yes, which were then changed to have charges. So Franklin's could come back, yet it hasn't. "
Not accurate. Those have 2 charges which would have them empty significantly faster than the other items. It would have hit vials too much.
"Are they? Because a medkit with a syringe is better to me than Self-Care, and a commodious toolbox with a wire spoil and a BNP is better to me than Deja Vu."
Are we gonna be genuine and compare most perks to most items and addons or pick the near only few outliers that exist to the "general" rule. Are we stacking all BNPs and Syringes/Styptics every game? Trying to compare perks to items and picking the very few off exceptions that don't represent the vast majority of games is disingenuous.
"You keep using absolutes that just aren't true. I just went against someone using Pentimento maybe a week ago. My last batch of survivor matches included a Krasue using Franklin's. I still encounter a decent amount of users."
No, you take things too literally. We always speak in generalities. That's human speech. You seeing a Penti in a week is an irrelevant point to what's being said. Once a week is basically non existent. Yes, that's using hyperbole, it gets the point across it's not common whatsoever.
"If a single hit is a challenge for you I don't know what to tell you. "
Again, still waiting, what's more skillful than a hit? I'm dying to know since you don't think it's skillful. I want to know what metric you think is showing "skill" to be worthy of a perk reward.
"Fine by me, but if we're being fair while also affecting a whole classification and not just one perk, either aura read or gen regress has gotta go too."
Fine by me, pallet distribution is gone as well as all the second chance perks, gen speeds significantly longer and healing perks gutted. Just admit going by majority "dislikes it" is a bad metric.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4025483#Comment_4025483
If you are bloodlusting, you are losing the game.
Yet you can still manage a measly M1 that way despite its cheapness, can't you? A single M1 is not a show of skill.
You just don't like perks countering things.
Lol are you sure because I said I run Lightborn? My whole build largely revolves around countering hook denials.
Builds counter builds, that's how the game works. You're arguing to not have things counter things. I bring a full hex build and a survivor brings a map or Counterforce/Small Game. Is that a problem? Completely nullifies my entire build as killer
Except these scenarios are not the same.
You could bring a map and those perks and end up with zero hex totems being used. And even if there's a full totem build, do you just hit the killer with a pallet or win a chase and a hex totem disappears? It takes an age to cleanse them all, especially if Pentimento and Thrill are in play. Just the amount of time survivors waste cleansing is an added benefit to the killer in exchange for the slow loss of those perks. Franklin's had nothing like that. You just hit someone and their item starts depleting. The killer can also see four survivors all with items in the lobby. If the lobbies were blind, you'd have a slightly better argument, even though hex totems are way less common than items and the Franklin's dice roll would be more likely to be profitable than Small Game (and talk about a perk no one uses).
There was a post awhile about most hated killer perks when playing survivor and Franklin's was a popular choice. There's a reason it's been nerfed.
"Yet you can still manage a measly M1 that way despite its cheapness, can't you? A single M1 is not a show of skill."
Then tell me what is a show of skill. I'm real interested to hear this.
"Lol are you sure because I said I run Lightborn? My whole build largely revolves around countering hook denials."
You haven't given me any other rational reason. It just appears you like your items and don't like things countering them. Offer me an actual reason otherwise.
" It takes an age to cleanse them all, especially if Pentimento and Thrill are in play."
As it should. You're literally removing their perks from the match rofl. So m1's are easy but woah time to cleanse a totem, that's a lot? Cleansing the totem that takes literally and objectively zero skill is removing the perks while m1's with Franklins simply makes you pick them up again, they haven't been deleted. More reward, zero skill.
Risk is involved in anti totem perks because they actually remove killer perks. Franklins is not removing your items, you can just pick them up again. Perks are also more impactful than just your items.
"Just the amount of time survivors waste cleansing is an added benefit to the killer in exchange for the slow loss of those perks."
This is a lack of understanding of killer vs survivor time. Killers time is x4 as much as survivors.
" You just hit someone"
Lol. "just hit someone". That's like telling a survivor just win all your chases bro and you have nothing to complain about. It's that easy man.
" It takes an age to cleanse them all, especially if Pentimento and Thrill are in play. "
No one runs Penti after it was gutted.
"even though hex totems are way less common than items and the Franklin's dice roll would be more likely to be profitable than Small Game (and talk about a perk no one uses)."
and why do you think that is that no one runs anti totem perks? It's because hexes are generally bad in the first place. They've made them so weak and easy to find that survivors don't even need to run a perk to easily counter them. Items at least required Franklins to counter them and took one of their perk slots, survivors are getting their counter free through balancing.
"There was a post awhile about most hated killer perks when playing survivor and Franklin's was a popular choice. There's a reason it's been nerfed. "
So dislike means it's justified? Killers universally hate Exhaustion perks, are those justified in getting gutted as well? Them not liking Franklins isn't a rational reason unless you think anything one side in large dislikes needs change. If you're gonna go that route we got a lot to change that I doubt you'd agree with. It's nerf had nothing to do with that anyway, it was a technicality from Fog Vials being introduced with charges that with how the coding for the game is done didn't work with Franklins. Nothing to do with disliking.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4025449#Comment_4025449
First, you don't have to do much outplaying to land a hit. You could easily bloodlust your way to a single hit.
It's lazy because that one hit could potentially destroy a whole build. I'm guilty of this as a Lightborn user, but that only ruins one potential item/build (and I'd also be fine with that perk receiving an adjustment). If you had a survivor team who has two healing builds revolving around medkits, a gen build revolving around a toolbox, and a saving build revolving around a flashlight, you could derail the whole team's playstyles just from landing a total of four hits. Yet we have no survivor perk that reduces the usefulness of killer add-ons or perks because you hit them with a pallet once or something.
Old Franklin's didn't bother me much as survivor because I run BtL and could just refill mine and other players' items, but the change was the right one regardless of why it happened. The perk now needs to work with other perks to be useful. It can still be very powerful, you just have to be more committed to the bit.
"First, you don't have to do much outplaying to land a hit. You could easily bloodlust your way to a single hit."
Lol no. If you are bloodlusting, you are losing the game.
"It's lazy because that one hit could potentially destroy a whole build. I'm guilty of this as a Lightborn user, but that only ruins one potential item/build (and I'd also be fine with that perk receiving an adjustment). If you had a survivor team who has two healing builds revolving around medkits, a gen build revolving around a toolbox, and a saving build revolving around a flashlight, you could derail the whole team's playstyles just from landing a total of four hits. Yet we have no survivor perk that reduces the usefulness of killer add-ons or perks because you hit them with a pallet once or something."
This makes no sense. Builds counter builds, that's how the game works. You're arguing to not have things counter things. I bring a full hex build and a survivor brings a map or Counterforce/Small Game. Is that a problem? Completely nullifies my entire build as killer. There isn't a problem with that. Also, the old version of Franklins didn't delete your item in one hit, you pick up and can still use it. You act like one hit and boom no item. You're also downplaying requiring a hit, it requires the survivor to be outplayed in the first place.
You also gave zero explanation for how it's "lazy". You just don't like perks countering things.
These takes are just wrong.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4025434#Comment_4025434
I mean, I'm the one playing and they're my stats, and I can say it's directly connected to me doing well. It just has to work with my whole build instead of being a super lazy way to delete survivor items from the match. It's currently more valuable to me if they continue to pick up their items instead of leaving them for dead.
"instead of being a super lazy way to delete survivor items from the match"
How exactly is this "lazy"? Requires a hit, aka outplaying. What's an example of literally anything more? 2 hits?
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4025428#Comment_4025428
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/M32V6R92PUA9/screenshot-20251106-153544.jpg
My whole build synergizes with it and that seems to be working good for me.
For the record "Undone" is currently the 4th highest win rate killer perk at the moment on Nightlight. A literal F tier perk. Does that mean Undone is a good perk? No, it doesn't. The win rates attached to perks don't mean much. Correlation/Causation.
Just because you win with the perk, doesn't mean it contributed to those wins to any significant degree.
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Deathslinger is extremely weak and feels forgotten atm. He needs it because he's weak. He's needed buffs for a long time.
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Cheating : act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.
It's an unfair advantage since the game isn't balanced for it, so yeah, I'd call it cheating.
Oddly the definition of cheating is quite broad/vague though, so you could actually call a lot of things in dbd "cheating", and not technically be wrong. I tend to find people taking the term "cheating" less on definitional value though and more what the general consensus considers cheating (which is typically just "do the devs allow it"). I personally go by definitions pretty strictly as devs allowing it or not has nothing to do with the true definition.
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As much as I'd prefer that, it isn't possible. My understanding is that it was nerfed because they couldn't figure out how to make it function with Fog Vials and the token system.
Unfortunately now there's literally zero counters for items. Franklins was the only counter killers had for them.
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For real. Playing anything B tier and below feels so bad right now. I think this is probably the worst killers been since OG infinite's were in the game many years ago, and that PTB isn't even live yet. Top killers need nerfs and all the bottom tiers needs huge buffs. This pallet density change also needs to go yesterday.