Blueberry
Blueberry
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086665#Comment_4086665
It isn't an assumption. There have been console users on the forum giving opinions on this killer while having no access to the ptb themselves. Now magnify that throughout all of social media. Only so many people are on Steam, and only so many participate in the ptb. Most people haven't played this killer yet, yet opinions are rampant.
I'm sure we can find some people that fit that, but it doesn't mean we can spread those anecdotal incidents and apply it to all. I would agree those people just forming opinions from watching others should wait to play it first. I just wouldn't assume that's the majority without actually knowing.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086665#Comment_4086665
Who cares where they are in someones contextual personal tier list which literally you are conflicting with this:
"No it's an assumption that they didn't play the PTB and are just getting their opinions from CC's." Where are you getting your opinions from? CC's? Or just your own opinion… choose one.
All I want is for him to be fun to play AS, and fun AGAINST.Lots of people care about a killers power level. People also care about fun to play as and against. Nothing I've said conflicts with this. You just dismissed lots of peoples opinions because of assumptions and only caring about what you care about. Other people opinions matter too.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086657#Comment_4086657
"Track record"
You mean because they buffed some killers coming out of PTB and realised they maybe overdid it? Oh, shocking.
You're telling me a game with live balance is receiving live balance? Oh my….
What about Lich who recieved a lot of buffs over time? Blight did too until he became one of the most problematic killers for years.
It's also an assumption that people are on the PTB? What's your point, it's called an opinion, based on knowing many ps5 players etc who can't wait to try him out. So you can take your attempt to dismiss me and keept it lmao"You mean because they buffed some killers coming out of PTB and realised they maybe overdid it? Oh, shocking."
I'll take examples for 500 Jeff.
"You're telling me a game with live balance is receiving live balance? Oh my…."
Oh so now we're saying "have ever received a live balance since their release"? I think we're altering the original intent here. The original statement was referencing right after release.
"What about Lich who recieved a lot of buffs over time? Blight did too
until he became one of the most problematic killers for years."Lich nearly 2 years later? and still isn't even A tier.
Blight I'd actually agree with. That is probably one good example that was buffed after release and over buffed at that.
"It's also an assumption that people are on the PTB? What's your point,
it's called an opinion, based on knowing many ps5 players etc who can't
wait to try him out. So you can take your attempt to dismiss me and
keept it lmao"No it's an assumption that they didn't play the PTB and are just getting their opinions from CC's.
The vast majority of the killer roster releases weak and stays weak as a general rule.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086607#Comment_4086607
when most of the playerbase didn't touch the PTB and can't, getting their opinions from CC's who have been wrong multiple times in the past.
If he is weak at launch, they'll buff him, but it's best to see how he does in the hands of the wider player base, not just the content creation bubble."If he is weak at launch, they'll buff him"
I mean given BHVR's track record I'd say this is a completely false statement. Like honestly I'm struggling to think of even a single time that has ever happened lol
"when most of the playerbase didn't touch the PTB and can't, getting
their opinions from CC's who have been wrong multiple times in the past."This is an assumption. You are just assuming that's where their opinion is coming from.
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@XtremeDBDForums said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086592#Comment_4086592
No, people don't like Spirit because she lacks counterplay. There is 0 skill component to vsing and playing her, its complete 50's or you just die if she has good ears, that's it. Similar reason why people don't like Nurse or First in most scenarios, their powers are often comprised of just winning 50s, though these two killers have more chase counterplay then Spirit does since they rely on Line Of Sight, and they're both stronger killers than her in terms of mobility and map pressure and better chase powers if they're fortunate enough to catch survivors out in the open. Spirit is just a chase demon, and one really boring one to vs at that.
Me and my friends save our penalty free DCs for spirits, they're the only killer we mutually agree is just unfun to face and we don't care to play out the match or get value out of our expendable resources. Playing it out just feels like a waste of our time since its not even gonna be a fun or interactive game
Completely disagree. It's a lack of understanding how to counter play her. She's also one of the higher skill requiring killers on the roster.
As far as 50/50 conversation goes, you realize a lot of this game is 50/50's right? Like not killer specific, like most the base game lol
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I just think Blood Warden should have time added to the block for any additional hooks. So if the timer has ended and you hook someone it will re block it for X time or if it's still active that additional time gets added onto the duration.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086604#Comment_4086604
Long time no see my friend ❤️
Yeah the nerd in me wants to see the kill rates for every killer.Yeah the best we have to go on is Nightlight essentially. The kill rates have been far below the intended 60% for a very long time now. Like start checking the stats month after month after month and not even the highest kill rate killer each month is getting close to 60%. More than 3/4 the entire killer roster is in the 40's lol. Now if people don't think those stats are good enough to go by then they need to give us other stats since otherwise that's all we have to go on.
Long time! I come and go lol
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An interesting and fun idea. I think Ghostface can just be fixed with some tweaks though.
-Drop Leg base kit
-Needs to be harder to break him out than it currently is
-Not losing stalk progress on m1's
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They're upset also because of them nerfing a killer that already wasn't that strong and not buffing his bad perks. Those seem like reasonable complaints. I don't think it's just about the survivor perks.
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This would obviously never happen though as it would show how bad of a problem the game currently has with dc's and abandons and we need that swept up lol
Kinda the same reason we only see "highest" killer kill rates and not just all of them.
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He's extremely outdated. I don't really like the idea of just buffing his movespeed though. I'd rather we buff him in other ways to make him worthy of being 4.4.
-24 meter TR (Monitor got gutted to trash anyway so the old combo is gone)
-Faster reload at base
-Entire addon rework (his addons are so bad and uninteresting)
-Hit box on his shots for survivor detection could be a bit more lenient given how hard his shots are affected by latency
-Maybe a base kit action debuff on spear hits so there's some reward for hits even if you can't connect them and gives him a little slow down to compensate for his speed.
His bad map pressure is "supposed" to be compensated by his strong anti loop and while his anti loop is "good", people generally exaggerate how good it is. We have a plethora of killers with anti loop just as good if not better currently while ALSO having map pressure and way better addons.
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People hate Spirit because she actually takes some skill to go against and most people aren't that good.
I don't really see Krasue hate other than the people actually playing Krasue lol
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Why are we nerfing (much less not buffing) a killer that wasn't strong in the first place?
Why didn't his bad perks get buffed? Even the one that did is still mediocre.
No one is going to be running these perks post release hype. People want to run new perks but everything being released is just undertuned.
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Throw the amount of dc's and abandons from the opponents as well lol
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@NeverSolus said:
Killer is in a terrible spot, except for where it isn't. The A+ tier killers are mostly fine. Everything else is so painful it feels like I should get a 401K for queueing into it.
Yeah I agree with this. It's decent for A+ tiers, but for all the other killers below it gets progressively broken. Very hard to balance a game with Nurse and Ghostface existing simultaneously. They're just not even playing the same game.
Honestly they need to work on bringing the outliers closer together. Like the best and the worst killers should not be even remotely as far apart as they currently are from each other in terms of power level.
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Agreed.
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I voted yes because DS is just embarrassingly bad imo and has needed good buffs for a while now. Tbh though rather than returning the insta scope I'd rather them go other routes. His addons need a complete rework, they are a mess and with so many bad and uninteresting ones. Decrease his TR back please. Ridiculous this was nerfed. Decrease the collision sphere size and increase the hit box on the hit sphere to make trick shots easier and hits a bit more reliable. It's so pin point that latency hits his shots hard. He would still honestly need even more after all this. He's very outdated.
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So in general you are never 4 man slugging people of equal skill. If you get the 4 man slug they were either just way less skilled than you or they just had a bad game and made many, many mistakes. Contrary to probably popular opinion 4 man slugging actually takes a lot of skill. I'd argue even more than playing normally with how much more micromanaging you're forced to do and how sink or swim it is. If you mess up at all everything is completely reset and you having nothing to show for it. Like a win streak of 4 slugs is more impressive to me than a win streak of playing normally. In this games current design that heavily punishes hooking to where slugging is generally just the better choice I still find it more impressive because while stronger it's also not working if you're a bad killer. You could pull off more wins playing normally as a bad killer than playing for 4 man slug as a bad killer. 4 man slugging is also requiring you to juggle 4 people ALL game. Which is high skill. Hence why people tunnel so they don't have to manage this.
To contrast this, tunneling to me actually removes significant amounts of skill from the game to where I don't really consider win streaks valid if that's what it took to get them since to me it's cheesing the wins. The entire point of win streaks are to show skill and to me tunneling is removing that skill and getting wins you didn't really earn.
Just my opinion.
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@Balrog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066309#Comment_4066309
Thanks for letting us know, we will pass this along to the team.
Seems to be up working again
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No one can figure out why it wasn't already like this from the beginning. Makes zero sense to force a killer to play out a full bot match or "lose" the game.
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Servers down again
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No joke but Jaws and Jurassic Park would fit DBD well and could very easily be done with a little creativity.
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How is Blight 115% fine but Trickster 115% too much? There's no consistency in balancing here.
Trickster could be made 115%, have his knives increased back, with no other nerfs, and he still would only be B tier at best. Why are we hindering something so weak?
His primary counter play is just getting held w all game long. This is zero skill and zero interaction game play that shouldn't be encouraged. The amount of time you lose just catching up to even start the chase is absurd. We're talking about ridiculously long downing times. 110% is reserved for killers with powers that also give mobility or fast down times to compensate, Trickster has neither.
This killer needs to be accessible to more players than just the handful of die hard mains.
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We shouldn't be encouraging hold w game play. He isn't strong enough to warrant 110%, needs to be 115%. The skill should be in hitting or dodging knives, not just wasting 20 seconds before every loop starts.
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He didn't get 115%, rip. Gonna get 0 skill held w around the map.
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I agree SM needs massive buffs. Krasue in A+ is WILD, girl is gutted into like B tier at best.
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@zonkednb said:
4x DC from survivors should result in the same immediate game end as a killer DC, with it being considered a 4K. Downing a bot is less about outplaying them and more herding them or exploiting their AI, it's easy but time consuming. It's not an expression of your skill in the game, there's no real fun to be had. If I wanted to chase bots around I'd run a custom game.
Yeah this ^
Absolutely ridiculous that we're expected to stay in a game of full bots to the end in order to get the win. It's insulting. If there's only bot survivors left, the killer has won.
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Unless they change him to 115 not excited to be just held w around the map ad nauseam. 110 isn't justified.
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We realistically haven't had a stealth or secondary objective killer in a very long time so I hope it's either one. Very tired of the anti loop/dash killers.
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@ImWinston said:
- The difference is that before with a good killer (nurse, bligth, billy, kaneki) you could "manage" the pallet density problem. Now the survivors have to face the exact same killers as before (nurse, bligth, billy, kaneki) but with very weak resources... it's not exactly the opposite. I'm not saying that nothing had to change, but not like this
We can't be balancing the game around the top 5% of the entire killer roster, it kills it for everyone else. Rather than balancing around them we just need to bring them down so that we can balance around all the other majority of weaker killers.
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Could potentially be your mmr. If it's high you're gonna see a lot more of the top tier killers since the bad killers generally aren't reaching there. Also rng is rng, sometimes we just get random odds of this or that, might just need a larger sample size.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032483#Comment_4032483
The most logical thing i think could be done outside of nerfs to top tiers is they need to base pallets on the killer you are playing, a blight the spawn logic will give you more loops and pallets to work with as a survivor
where as if you are versing a M1 killer the spawn logic on the pallets would be reduced compared to blights so they are not as swamped with pallets.
But with how updates have been going, I don't think it could do correctly and there would probably be odd picks about what killers get high and low spawn logic so don't have hope it could be done correctlyYeah unfortunately I don't think they would ever do this. I think the more realistic route would be to balance them around the weaker m1 killers and finally nerf all the outlier top tier killers that are too strong for the weaker pallets now. The top tier killers like Blight are inhibiting properly balancing everything for the rest of the roster.
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The loops are in a weird spot. Like how do you make them playable with the pallet up, but still playable with the pallet down? It's hard to do.
Like a lot of these loops right now look too unsafe with the pallet up, but seem fair once the pallets down. If you make them safer with the pallet up, now they're too strong with the pallet down.
Before all these pallet changes the majority were safer with the pallet up still, but that made most pallets just auto breaks once thrown, you weren't playing most of them with the pallet down because they were too safe, that's bad design too.
Is it just a lot of pallets, but they require being thrown to play mostly? I don't really know the solution here.
Also, while many of these loops seem too weak for high tier killers they seem fair for all the weaker m1 killers, which is most the roster. The previous pallet iterations were all unfair to m1's. Idk how we balance for both these groups. If anyone has ideas I'd love to hear them.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031769#Comment_4031769
A single fight isn't a real comparison. If the guy using fists wins against guys with swords every time or most of the time, even against skilled guys with swords, then something about fighting with fists, or the way they specifically fight with fists, is actually giving them an advantage over guys with swords.
I don't think this is worth continuing.
"If the guy using fists wins against guys with swords every time or most of the time, even against skilled guys with swords, then something about fighting with fists, or the way they specifically fight with fists, is actually giving them an advantage over guys with swords."
Just no. The vast majority of everyone would not think this in the scenario I described.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031755#Comment_4031755
And yet you beat those four mans, every time. If you can outplay it, every time, that advantage doesn't really exist.
Yes, it does mean something with the proper comparison and that proper comparison is comp killer win streaks which go significantly longer.
"And yet you beat those four mans, every time. If you can outplay it, every time, that advantage doesn't really exist."
Again, more hyperbole. Being able to outplay something, doesn't mean the advantage doesn't exist, that makes no sense. If two guys are fighting, one's using fists, the other has a sword, but the guy with fists wins, that doesn't mean the guy with the sword didn't have an advantage lol. It just meant the guy with fists had to be significantly more skilled to win and it wasn't a fair match. If both had been equally skilled the guy with the fists would lose every time. Just because he's outplaying the guys with swords doesn't mean the guys with swords shouldn't be balanced better.
"Yes, it does mean something with the proper comparison and that proper comparison is comp killer win streaks which go significantly longer."
No, they do not. The only time the killer streaks are going longer like you're referencing are the few outlier top tier killers that are an exception. Which none of the stuff I've said here I'm applying to them, they even would be nerfed if it was up to me. For the vast majority of the killer roster however, their streaks are not going longer.
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@FerrousFacade said:
This is again, you making an assumption. Like I've got 12k hours in DBD and an extremely high kill rate on some killers (like high 95%+ with hundreds and hundreds of matches in that sample size). I can tell when a match is lost through skill mismatch vs balance problems. Calling those squad matchups lost from skill instead of balance, is you assuming.
This right here says everything we need to know. You have a 95% kill rate, literally a win EVERY match kill rate, and you still think the game is balanced against you.
I never said the game was balanced against me. What I said was that it isn't balanced vs a 4 man.
Someone can have an unfair advantage and you still beat them regularly. It doesn't change that it's an unbalanced advantage. Thankfully being higher skilled you can outplay that advantage a good amount of the time.
Does me pointing out a comp survivor with a crazy high win rate mean anything? No, they're just better than most the people they're facing. Their win rate doesn't mean there isn't balance problems.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031719#Comment_4031719
People absolutely call them unbeatable, that isn't hyperbole extreme or otherwise, sure not everyone, but enough that it is noticeable. A below 50 percent escape rate shows that it isn't unbalanced, lower skill killers just think it is and yes it depends on which killer you are playing but the overall is balanced.
nearly early everyone who actually plays at high mmr knows it's heavily balanced in their favor
Then why doesn't the data back that notion up? Its because it isn't the truth, its a hypothesis, that the data refutes. Unless you are trying to claim that they are intentionally dying in endgame.
What the data actually supports is that high MMR survivors and high MMR killers end up facing lower MMR players, this is supported by BOTH the kill rate and escape rate going UP for high MMR players. That can only happen if we have matches that are cross MMR. The killers that go against these squads and think its unbalanced are much more likely to have gotten a match where they have been matched UP and thus are losing to more skilled players, not unbalanced. Who do you think these high MMR four mans are losing to? The matches where they are being placed against killers with lower skill than them or the matches where they get a killer also in high MMR.
"People absolutely call them unbeatable, that isn't hyperbole extreme or otherwise, sure not everyone, but enough that it is noticeable. "
They don't. I'm sure there's some small insignificant portion, but the vast majority do not.
"A below 50 percent escape rate shows that it isn't unbalanced, lower skill killers just think it is and yes it depends on which killer you are playing but the overall is balanced."
As I said before, stats are skewed by a multitude of factors unrelated to balance. Nurse has a low kill rate, should we buff her? This is why you can't just go by kill rates for your conclusions.
'Then why doesn't the data back that notion up?"
Because you're misinterpreting the data. You're using causation for the data instead of correlation.
"What the data actually supports is that high MMR survivors and high MMR killers end up facing lower MMR players, this is supported by BOTH the kill rate and escape rate going UP for high MMR players. "
So mismatch of skill with mmr is a big factor skewing escape/kill rates. This is one of many factors as to why you shouldn't be taking kill rates as face value as you are.
"The killers that go against these squads and think its unbalanced are much more likely to have gotten a match where they have been matched UP and thus are losing to more skilled players, not unbalanced."
This is again, you making an assumption. Like I've got 12k hours in DBD and an extremely high kill rate on some killers (like high 95%+ with hundreds and hundreds of matches in that sample size). I can tell when a match is lost through skill mismatch vs balance problems. Calling those squad matchups lost from skill instead of balance, is you assuming.
"Who do you think these high MMR four mans are losing to? "
You can simultaneously have an unfair advantage as a 4 man swf and still lose a lot. It's because 4 people leaves room for lots of mistakes and because they get greedy at end game wanting to save their friends. Them throwing the games at the end for teammates isn't indicative of balance.
If both the killer and a 4 man swf are equal skill and both play perfectly, the killer loses basically every time, bar a few top tier killers. Thankfully most survivors make lots of mistakes, but the match is there for them to win or lose by balance at the top end. This is why groups are heavily nerfed in comp, it's for a reason.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031636#Comment_4031636
Any data we are given will get misinterpreted or misconstrued to fit a narrative. Just look at the Japan data, one content creator pushes the narrative that is just "mentality" differences when there is zero evidence to back that claim up. If there are mentality differences, no one even considers that they potentially have the causality backwards, better outcomes (for survivors) leading to better mentality. It also ignores that basically anyone who even knows those stats exist, watches a video on them, or discusses them somewhere already has a different mentality about the game.
The playerbase already has a skewed perception of balance. We have data showing that 4 man SWF in high MMR have a below 50% escape rate and people will still claim that these squads are unbeatable. The January to March stats stated that kill rate for high MMR killers goes up from 60 overall to 63 and escape rate for high MMR survivor also goes up from 41 overall to 42. Yet, we still have people that at high MMR the game becomes survivor sided. At some point you just have to stop caring what these people think and ignore whatever narrative they are trying to push.
"We have data showing that 4 man SWF in high MMR have a below 50% escape rate and people will still claim that these squads are unbeatable."
This is extreme hyperbole. This is not what people say. They simply say it's very unbalanced, which is true. There's a difference between causation and correlation. Kill rates going up or down does not always mean balanced or not balanced. There are many things in DBD that heavily skew kills to happen or not happen that have nothing to do with balance or are representative of it. This is why going by kills for balance is flawed in the first place, but that's another topic. This is why even though Nurse has a very low kill rate, we still know she's the best in the game, or why even when we look at kill rates vs 4 swf it looks different that what nearly everyone who actually plays at high mmr knows it's heavily balanced in their favor. Stats don't show a lot. This is why I mention why people win or lose is a lot more important than just if they win or lose.
While yes people already do misinterpret stats, lumping all the dc's into kills just makes this even worse than it already is. Just because the situations bad doesn't justify making it worse. If you really care about showing dc's then simply giving dc stats would make way more sense and cause less misinterpretation.
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@fussy said:
Idk, I completely fine with variety on survivors, there are dozens of builds I run at least from time to time. Almost every chapter I add something in my builds or at least create something fun, even if I don't use it a lot.
On killers it's completely opposite – there wasn't really good and universal perk in 3 years – since Knight chapter. There were like 4-5 good niche perks or perks that good on several specific killers or in specific situations since then, but that's it. What is even worse – they keep deleting killer perks. Stbfl, Franklins, Monitor, Overcharge, DMS (on most killers) – they are all gone from my builds. And only perks I added in my builds since then are Oppression and Batteries on specific killers.
And on survivors I can play with whatever I want and have way more space for experiments, on killers you are forced to bring at least some slowdown, because even with supershort chases m1 button will be stronger without any slowdowns. That's why I wish we have at least half of survivor build variety on killers.I agree the issue is significantly worse on the killer perks, but it doesn't hurt to improve a ton of the bad ones on survivor too. In general the survivor meta hasn't changed much either. Both sides have nearly the same meta for the past years. Even if it is more so for different reasons.
"What is even worse – they keep deleting killer perks. Stbfl, Franklins, Monitor, Overcharge, DMS (on most killers) – they are all gone from my builds. "
Completely agree. They made the very little meta even smaller by unnecessarily nerfing some m1 killer perks. Sloppy, Monitor, Franklins, STBFL getting nerfed were completely the wrong moves on their part. Idk why we're nerfing m1 killer perks or perks that are the only counter for items.
I don't disagree with your points. It is much worse on killer perks and I do feel way more flexible to run basically whatever on survivor which killers definitely do not have that option as you've pointed out, just think it couldn't hurt to improve many of their bad ones as well.
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Hit issues are ping related. Not much to do here.
I agree the top S tier killers are hindering balancing for all the rest of the lower tier roster.
I just think we should remove the skew towards the current ones, we don't need a different skew. Keep it random.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031568#Comment_4031568
The Kill Rate with DCs is the real experience of the game, this would have a direct impact on how people view and discuss the game. Maybe it even turns out that killers DC way more than we think and Kill Rates actually go down from including DCs. I think that's unlikely, but would be happy to be proven wrong. If it instead shows us that survivors DC in say 30% of matches, then yes we do have a DC epidemic and points to there being a serious problem with the health of the game AND would show that the 60 percent kill rate they show us is basically meaningless as far as real experience queuing into a match is concerned.
Really, any data BHVR can provide I would love to see. Why does it seem like you are against BHVR providing us with more data?
The problem with what you're suggesting is it would be interpreted for balance by the player base. Whether that's kill rates going up or down it doesn't matter, it's still giving a false perception of the games balance to killers or survivors. Now if you want to have them just show us the DC rate stats, I'm totally fine with that, since it wouldn't be misleading and skewing peoples perceptions of balance.
I'm not against more data, I'm against how you're wanting it presented that would mislead people on the games balance. It's very easy for people to misinterpret data. As said above, if you want to see how bad the dc epidemic is with just dc stats and then we can extrapolate the impact of that on games, I'm all for that, we can use that to make positive changes. However kill rate stats specifically are there for balance interpretation and we don't want those stats artificially influenced by things not related to balance.
For example, knowing that 60% of people dc against SM is good information since this shows people really don't like something about her and she probably needs changes, that's useful. Just throwing those dc wins into her kill rate however, now makes it look like she's just over-tuned. One shows a power problem, one shows a design/fun/interactivity problem. Two very different outcomes with how the data is presented.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031552#Comment_4031552
Stats are stats and can be used for whatever purpose we decide to use them for. I specifically stated we shouldn't use the stat with DCs to balance the game. They are absolutely relevant to my experience in the game, if my teammate DCs I still have to play through that match. That experience is valid and worth examining.
You're referencing value on them outside of kills for balancing, but what other value would you draw from that? Give me an example. Note we aren't saying tracking dc rates, they can already see that internally, what value from specifically making it effect the kill rate stats we're shown.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031541#Comment_4031541
I'm talking about DCs, not abandons. But Nazzzak said above that abandon matches were stated to not be counted as well. I personally don't remember the parameters that came out with the numbers, nor can I find the info.
But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that abandon matches are also tossed, which I think would be absurd. Out of my 116 matches, 52 featured at least one abandon. That's 44%. If that many were excluded, then what even matters?
Right that's lots of abandons, but if we don't know if those are included in their official stats then we can't draw any conclusions about deflated kill rates.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031541#Comment_4031541
We can assume a higher real kill rate though. Survivors DC more and those matches typically end in the killer winning. Obviously we shouldn't count those matches for balancing reasons and the numbers should be presented both with and without but it would be helpful to know what kill rates look like when these matches are included. If there is a high enough discrepancy between the two it might even be the kick some people need to DC less.
Kill stats involving dc's are irrelevant. The stats purpose is for balance. You don't gauge balancing on games that might have only been won because of a dc, that wouldn't make sense. Why a game is a win or loss matters a lot more than just if it was a win or loss.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031473#Comment_4031473
It's a little more awkward making the DC's work like abandons (losses) since unlike abandons, which have specific criteria which is generally a lost game, DC's can be any time for any of numerous random reasons that have nothing to do with losing
This is true, but just in my small sample, as I said, it was almost all ragequits over me winning. If I recall, two of the Dredge DCs were at the beginning of the match, and I was using the recorder add-on that starts the match with Nightfall, so that might have well been an accessibility issue for those players. But, for the most part, the DCs were late-game.
I'm not positive about this math because I don't have my notes with me, but if I subtract the 20 DC matches from my sample, my KR for the month goes from 78.66% to 72.39%. That would be BHVRs official secret number for me for the month, and that's a noteworthy dip. Now magnify that by everyone, including people much better than me who probably see more DCs. I wouldn't be surprised if true KRs were actually hovering around 70% overall. Imagine how many people DC against god Nurses.
I don't know what can be done either but I think I'd rather them be included. They're still a reflection of what's happening in a match and a bot doesn't automatically ruin the game.
Though the obvious server DCs definitely need to be tossed.
Well again we cannot assume a higher % kill rate because as we agreed before, we don't know if they are including the abandons in their official stats released to us. Also, I know your anecdotals were dc's more relating to losses, however most my dc's are near the beginning before the games even lost.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031452#Comment_4031452
This is it:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LE88RIBPDNU7/screenshot-20251101-002134.jpg
This is pretty vague. No correlation doesn't tell us what they do or don't include.
You fix it by having abandons show as losses because they are, and you have everyone loose and gain MMR based on those wins and losses. I don't know how DCs show on the survivor end but my killer ones were losses, and that's correct. The abandon should be a skip animation option, not a get out of jail free card that's distributed every time a killer wins solely because someone died last.
The only reason I can see is that if BHVR goes back and adjusts the abandons to register properly, everyone is gonna see their numbers plummet and they'll be unhappy. But people need to see their real numbers.
Abandons always being a loss sounds fair. As long as the killer abandoning after all survivors have abandoned still gives them the win (currently doesn't).
DC's I believe are currently just all thrown out. Which there's so many DC's right now that's throwing numbers all off as well. It's a little more awkward making the DC's work like abandons (losses) since unlike abandons, which have specific criteria which is generally a lost game, DC's can be any time for any of numerous random reasons that have nothing to do with losing. As mentioned before I don't know how we'd fix this stat altering issue other than making dc stats be included but also make dc's way more punishing to make them much less prevalent.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031414#Comment_4031414
But they're not under-reported. They were perfect.
I would assume they have every possible variation of internal data and that doesn't do any of us much good.
DC matches also aren't included in the large-scale stats they show us.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7T7ZJJ40HTXJ/screenshot-20251124-140226.jpg
This is old but was in regardds to overall KRs amongst all killers and theres nothing to indicate anything has changed, which means the only accurate numbers are the ones we don't get to see.
I don't have the quote on me but Mandy had posted a little while back when we were critiquing how flawed the dbd website stats were, as you've mentioned, that this was only those stats, and that the kill rates they present to us are not subject to these flaws.
I'm not sure how we would realistically fix this though. Just as excluding them flaws the stats, including them does as well. The only real way would be like significantly increasing DC punishments and removing abandoning so that both scenarios happen significantly less to where they're less of a factor when included, and I doubt that's happening.
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Based on what they've said, the KR's would be under-reported on their official stat page we see as you're referencing, not on their internal stats or the ones they post to us every so often though. I'm not sure as far as Nightlight stats.
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Basically if you're being tunneled just pre drop most pallets. Since your team "should" be getting free and uninterrupted gen time they should be going very fast so there's no need to conserve pallets. If you happen to be running them, anti tunnel perks help a lot here as well. Taking him near the others on gens makes it easy for them to soak a hit to give you distance since they can just go right back on the gen injured since he's gonna ignore them anyway.
If it's your teammate getting tunneled rescue them right before next hook stage. This maximizes gen time. Groups almost never do this. If you can tell they're trying to get someone out do not rescue them early. Use that time for gens. Depending on how good your teammate is the better option can be to take a hit blocking for them. However, I generally find that time is spent better just pumping gens as fast as possible, unless they just happen to be conveniently near me already on the gen.
You can punish tunneling quite significantly and make him throw the whole game for it. Even without any anti tunnel perks. The reason this usually goes bad is because either the guy being tunneled is bad at looping, the team is rescuing him early instead of maximizing hook time, or they're not taking advantage of the free time on gens and being efficient. All 3 of which are skill issues. It feels bad if that's your teammates fault and not yours, but that's why it's supposed to be a team game, not a 1v1. That's just the rough part of assym games. You will lose matches when you did nothing wrong, that's just how they go. This happens as killer too.
Hopefully with MMR changes coming you will get mmr scoring based on your contributions. IE even if you die or your team loses because they were bad but you played really well, you'll still be rewarded MMR. not just a "loss".
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Despite disagreeing with some of them on certain things, most of the top creators are pretty accurate in understanding the game. They were right in the critiques of the changes. Tunneling/camping while sometimes annoying isn’t that big of an issue in the game. It’s generally just a skill issue. That’s a hard pill for people to swallow. A lot of the time it does work successfully I could’ve played better to change the outcome. It also happens way, way less than people act like. I typically find that people who think it’s extremely common have a very loose definition of tunneling that isn’t really tunneling. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t personally tunnel on killer as I think it’s removing skill from the match and I’d like if it didn’t exist, but people are ridiculously exaggerating how much of an issue it is, and I primarily play solo queue at that. I even looked at my dbd stats page and I’m roughly 50/50 on each side, with a slight more on survivor.