crogers271
crogers271
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@HolyDarky said:
- The perk is too much of a game changer. I had matches where one use of the perk resulted in a win for the survivors, which is just a bad gamedesign. We are already in a metagame where killers play against perks instead of survivors and perks decide between win or lose. The actually factor should be the skill. Then, if you play against good survivors, you are in a position where you need to play against good survivors and their even stronger perks that can always decide the game.
- The perk is abusable and even when you don't tunnel, you can still eat a STB. I had these situations many times where I hooked three different survivors and then made one of them second state but the fourth one came and used STB. It's just a stupid situation where you as the killer gets punished for hooking different survivors by a perk that you cannot predict.
- The perk will still be good to give other players strong perks such as Deliverance back when they messed up.
- The perk covers too much of mistakes. I had matches where a survivor went second stage due to the killer applying the right pressure but then all of this went away by a perk.
- The perk encourage slugging and tunnelling. Alongside with some other strong perks that discourage the killer to spread hooks (DH, DS, or Resurgence), STB existence encourage the killer player to either tunnel or slug since these are the best ways to avoid the perk (and other ones) as good as possible. Due to that, we can never reach a metagame where spreading hooks is okay.
- It makes SWF, who are already the strongest group in the game, even stronger since they can use the perk how they want and when they want. Perk-designs like these are already problematic and unfair since they should not buff already strong groups but instead help SoloQ or weaker parts of the game to some degree.
- It's just a bad gamedesign to mess around with hook-stages.
- It's downside is in many cases not that problematic. The exposed-part before was not really an issue, especially against killers with M2 or due to the help of the unhooked teammates that had their endurance and DS in the pocket. Now, with the 120seconds broken effect, being injured is not a big deal against some killers while against the other ones, you can hide and play it slow. Another issue is also that the effect of the perk encourage the killer to go back to the hook since otherwise, the killer will not find the user. This is already a problematic situation where the best solution to counter something either tunnelling, slugging, or proxi-camping is. As already mentioned, spreading hooks is actually a mistake.
Overall, the perk is too much of a game changer for how little effort it has. You can abuse it in so many different situations that have nothing to do with "It's an anti-tunnel-perk" - similar to DS where you can abuse it as a weapon that puts the killer in a lose-lose-situation. It also makes the strongest group of the game even stronger while SoloQ is still left behind. Therefore, the perk either needs a rework, big limitation, or downside to not be a balance issue, abusable perk, or something that encourage an unwelcome strategy.
Going through these
1: Gamechanger - lots of perks this is true for. An unbreakable can turn a match, a deliverance, a reassurance. They also can happen and ultimately have no meaning whatsoever.
2: What about that is abuse? I'll say one thing for the killer rulebook, they do a much better job at getting BHVR to implement it.
Also, being unable to predict perks is completely normal for the game. See end game killer builds, first use of coup, aura reads at the start of the trial (and most of it in soloq) on the killer side, or gen rush, deliverance, unbreakable, etc. on the survivor side. Now you can make reasonable guesses about what might exist, but that can be done for StB as well.
3: Not sure on the relevance of the question of 'what's the problem' with 'hey, its still usable'.
4: Mistake - If survivors know they have a perk to use, and they play around a camping killer, pressure gens, or other possibilities, its not a mistake. Using it like this is no more a mistake than a Devour killer leaving the hook or an end game build setting up their perks.
5: Slugging and tunneling - slugging maybe, but tunneling? Is there a change that doesn't result in the argument that killer's will just tunnel harder?
6: SWFs - Its kind of inevitable, but if SWFs really had that much of a jump over soloq they'd have a lot higher escape rate than the stats ever show them having.
7: Bad game design - why? What is sacrosanct about hooks that they can't be touched?
8: Downside not problematic - it shouldn't be. It's supposed to be a counter play perk.
You can abuse it in so many different situations that have nothing to do with "It's an anti-tunnel-perk"Back when they put in more hooks to counter unhookable builds, I don't remember anyone telling killers 'you can only use those hooks against people running unhookable builds'.
And, as many have mentioned, if you think the problematic situation is the 2-1-1-0 hooks, neither the change that went through or the additional in the PTB actually do anything about it. In that case people should be advocating against these changes and instead arguing for something like 'deactivates after three unique hook states'.
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4121495#Comment_4121495
Well we at least had an attempt at a small solution back in 9.2.0 where there WAS going to be unique hook bonuses that were weaker on stronger killers but even then, it wasn't that strong. That's why I said survivors need to get debuffed somehow to actually make spreading hooks worth it as we shouldn't be punishing the player as a dev for playing to win. Only then could we nerf tunneling in some way.
That's why I said survivors need to get debuffed somehow to actually make spreading hooks worth it as we shouldn't be punishing the player as a dev for playing to win.But playing to win is completely based on what the devs put in the game. If anti-tunnel had gone through than tunneling would, usually, not be the best play to win strategy. Once upon a time survivors could play to win by saboing all the hooks in the map, or hatch escapes, or luck based unhook builds, or shift-W with sprint burst and vigil. That they were playing to win isn't really relevant to discussing whether its a healthy game design or not.
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Those are all solid ideas.
I think the perk communication is probably the best and most necessary of the bunch. Solves so many problems on whether the other survivors notice what perks you are running or not.
The switch to command I feel like could use a little more, but would need more experience with the current to say. I do think some of these instead of commands could be more questions, like 'do I need to be the one to unhook?'.
The contextual ones are kind of killer limited so I don't know if BHVR would do it, but would be pretty good ideas if they could be implemented.
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Survivors got a few buffs that honestly don't even make up for the massive wave of nerfs coming with them.A guess on my part, but I think BHVR is really overestimating how much impact the chat wheel will have on survivor performance (and maybe even queue times). That might be the reason for the nerfs is how much they think it will change the game.
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I might be misreading you, but here goes -
Starter - I don't think StB is a problem. It's designed as a counter against a specific tactic. A survivor gives up a perk slot around something that might not happen (or might happen to them). I think counter perks have to be strong otherwise why not just do something else (i.e. gen rush).
But here goes:
Aura reveal - kind of seems too easy for a killer proxy camping. StB is supposed to punish tunneling. Now the amount of time it has saved would probably be match by just running Reassurance without any of the downsides.
If you use, you can't have it used on you - I don't see why its an issue. To use your quote
if you are on 2/0/1/0 and someone takes it from the two making it 1/0/1/1 then you hook the stb to get 1/0/1/2 then another stb comes and you back with no one of death hook at 1/1/1/1.I don't see why we prevent this for the survivors just because things ended up falling exactly right. If it was just those two survivors with StB, that just seems either lucky or they avoided the killer, and thus traded off time. If all the survivors brought it, well that seems a case of trade offs. If the killer got the StB survivor on the hook quickly because of proxy camping, I don't see a problem with getting them shouldered.
Disabled at 1 gen left - I don't have a problem with catch up mechanics, but they don't really exist in 1v4 outside the natural game progression. If we're going to put them in the game they need to exist a lot more broadly. If survivors manage to make it to endgame with the perk and that lets them turn a 3E into a 4E, I don't see why that's any more of an issue than them using it earlier to keep a game alive (anymore than I see killer's using their perks/strategy to turn a 4E into a 3E at the end)
Two quotes from your post I want to highlight
With these changes the killer would have pressure after chasing the STB user, because they cannot be STB.you can safely tunnel someone out if needed for the pressure leading into end game.I guess my question is, what's the problem with the survivors using their perks to try and deny this. I don't know why the killer should anymore have a safe path forward than the survivors do. It also seems to take out the variability of the game and becomes a 'if they do this, you do that' type of scenario.
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There seem to be so many people forgetting that Shoulder is going from a 40 second exposed to a 2 minute broken. I really hope BHVR doesn't take these complaints seriously when they don't actually even address what is happening.
It's also funny how quickly the nerfs to SB and Vigil are forgotten.
Or that windows is getting nerfed.
Dark arrogance, yeah if they keep it at 25% that would be weird. But really? The meta shakeup hinged on the dark arrogance change?
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472817/behavior-catering-to-survivors-once-again
Behavior you really need to start programming Killer bots, because thats all that gonna be left
Are you sure? Doesn't seem to be much of a line for survivor.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BZ0XI85VPW8F/screenshot-20261005-213822.jpg
The killer queue could have an infinity symbol and we'd still be getting the takes that the game is just a moment away from losing all of its killer players.
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@HolyDarky said:
@ThatRyanB can you explain why you didn't hard-cap the basic-attack cooldown to avoid builds with nearly 60% attack-cooldown. You also hard capped the pick-up speed, so Forever Entwined and Fire Up are not problematic together, why not do the same to keep Dark Arrogance in a good spot?
I mean you're kind of asking a broader question of why they didn't go with hard caps instead of diminishing returns for most things.
Which is a good question that I'd be interested in knowing the answer to as I think it would have been a lot better way to do it for most of the effects in the game.
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@cogsturning said:
Glad StB wasn't changed. Surprised the devs committed to the WoO nerf despite massive outcry. I'd like to know about everything else too.
Well its still going from a 40 second exposed to a 2 minute broken, which still seems like a pretty big change.
But yeah, disabling the perk for the entire group never actually made any sense so really glad they changed that.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4120906#Comment_4120906
cant edit so here: nothing confirmed i misremembered there were just rumours and plenty of videos floating around.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4120912#Comment_4120912
Is it laughable though? Or is that reaction exactly what i described lol
It would be understandable for BHVR to have some Protection measures for their content creators against Hackers as they are more likely to be targeted after all and we actually have witnessed such stracks live on stream. Not even saying thats a bad thing.
There are hackers that target streamers. Hens even interviewed a bunch of them. If they had to force their way into a different queue we'd know about it.
People also stream snipe the streamers. Again, if they had separate queues that would be almost impossible to do.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4120908#Comment_4120908
You are treating something rng based, chests, as a sure fire thing. If you manage to get four or five flashy saves those killers were not going to be winning with or without the saves. Better killers don't get flashy saved against that often, especially not in a single match.
You are unlikely to get a map from chests via scout, the key guarantees a rare or greater item and so does the subsequent rummage. That leaves just the singular possibility of the annotated map and I've literally never seen one in a chest to the point I suspect they are bugged to not appear, you are far more likely to get a rare+ medkit, toolbox, flashlight, or key than a map.
You know, I had been wondering why maps seemed so incredibly rare to come across despite playing a lot of Scout, didn't actually think about it. Thanks for laying it out.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4120792#Comment_4120792
Counterpoint, healing is far less important from medics thanks to blue tonics and with the addition of survivors starting with items creating a plethora of medkits from chests. Also there's the simple fact that you aren't going to be able to get a double heal burst off with no communication, I'm sorry but that just is not happening with no communication in the game. So while yes in a vacuum three medics are good, in solo q reality they simply aren't that vital compared to escapist and scout.
Escapists are good for the reason you've stated. You don't chase them meaning you aren't pressuring vital gens because you instantly give up chase or need the other killer to support your lack of chase ability. This means that survivors are able to get free gens done with no risk. Having three people that are cranking out gens because the killers won't touch them means that gens will be flying and since scouts are the stealthy class who can more easily avoid chases you are forced between trying to find a bunch of hidden people or waste time with escapists and commit to them. You also are vitally forgetting their unlock ability. Self heal at 70% is extremely fast and importantly does not need another survivor to waste time on you. In fact it's more efficient to not have another person healing you.
Scouts meanwhile like you said is bad to run across the map to reset a pallet but if you have three then odds are one of them will be in the area and can easily reset a pallet. Furthermore a lot of killers can and will eat through pallets, but also survivors who don't greed pallets and just use them all will burn through a lot but also stay up forever unless chased by both killers. I can count on one hand the number of times I get downed by a killer solo in this game mode. (Excluding nurse because nurse ######### sucks) Scouts let survivors play like this the whole match.
Now lets break down some of your reasons for guide.
Finding gens is not important due to scout. They open up chests a lot and you'll find a few maps that can cover that easily so that's a moot point. The aura reading is nice but also requires the gen to not be regressing which if you've played this game you know killers will just kick first then chase due to how fast regression is.
Third blast mine while annoying is just a few seconds and you need to pray that the killers will kick the gen at the right time, something you have no control over and likewise does nothing at the very end of the game where escapists, scouts, and medics all have abilities that can result in otherwise impossible saves happening. In the event both killers are together like you said then the survivors already won. Killers who stay together the whole match will lose assuming the survivors aren't throwing simply because they can't apply pressure properly and in such a scenario the escapist class gets even more powerful due to being able to juke both killers easily.
Fourth… I guess that's valid? I can't argue against the fact you need to do gens to escape but I'll counter with escapists and scouts are well suited for playing for hatch in the event things go south where as medics and guides are in a much tougher spot relying far more on luck.
Fifth, I'd argue it's more of a detriment popping an early gen faster. It's better having people work on a wider amount of gens at the same time simply because it means the slowdown does not proc until the gens done. A lot of people like you said waste their toolboxes mindlessly on the first gen applying a harsher slowdown that will slow the game down.
In short guide is not good for a variety of reasons and I would argue that it's on par with lightbringer in the value they bring.
Tonics - its a luck based element, not one I ever really built strategy around. More like 'oh, hey, we don't have to heal', but I have plenty of games where the killers seem to find all the tonics first.
Escapists - Pressuring gens, maybe. You can get the same thing with Guide blast mining gens as well, without the worry of the few killers who make the escapists ability not as worthwhile. I certainly think a team could go that route, it just doesn't seem as ideal to me.
Not really forgetting about the self heal, I mentioned it, but I get it was a long post (
Additionally, because I believe in a lot of medics, this really tunes down the value of the self-heal that they get. If you have few medics the value of being the escapist jumps.). I think Escapist/Medic work against each other, the more you have of one the less you need of the other. I find the medic burst heal/fast healing speed to be more useful, because it also allows them to heal up the Guides/Scouts, but again its a trade off.Finding gens is not important due to scout. They open up chests a lot and you'll find a few maps that can cover that easily so that's a moot point. The aura reading is nice but also requires the gen to not be regressing which if you've played this game you know killers will just kick first then chase due to how fast regression is.1: I feel like Scouts have more useful items to pick up while the Guide always has the gen read.
2: The map doesn't point out the four closest gens which isn't as critical as 1v4, but can still be pretty important.
3: It's not finding gens for most of the game that's the most important part, that's easy outside which critical gens to hit. It's the latter game where a gen might be overlooked. A map user wouldn't really have any reason to activate the map, while a Guide will just see it for free.
The aura reading is nice but also requires the gen to not be regressing which if you've played this game you know killers will just kick first then chase due to how fast regression is.Third blast mine while annoying is just a few seconds and you need to pray that the killers will kick the gen at the right time,These sentences kind of work against each other, are we going off anticipating how killers will play or not?
Anyway, I think a few seconds is a pretty substantial impact, especially with multiple triggers in a round. The game (1v4 or 2v8) is all about buying as much time occupying the killer while the survivors do other things. Its free time that the whole team gained.
likewise does nothing at the very end of the gameBlast mine doesn't, but the Guide does open gates faster. Having one still left if gates pop and its a 2v5 or less can be pretty helpful.
In the event both killers are together like you said then the survivors alreadywon.Killers who stay together the whole matchWell I didn't say the whole match, which would be horrible for the killers. However, there will be times were the survivors will get cornered (especially like a map on RPG), or just the killers end up meeting as they rotate around the map and capitalize on working together for a brief window.
Fifth, I'd argue it's more of a detriment popping an early gen faster. It's better having people work on a wider amount of gens at the same time simply because it means the slowdown does not proc until the gens doneI disagree. Survivors definitely want to spread out early, but I think its better to pair up on gens. One getting them done so they aren't prey to gen regression, two if someone has to leave for a save the other can finish the gen.
Also, while map dependent, some maps have really critical gens that if popped off the start make the game much, much easier for the survivors.
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Also, the other post, going off the idea of the Escapist become the flashlight user, its a good strategy, but again you don't really need anymore than one player doing that for it to be effective.
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4120791#Comment_4120791
I like the fact that we start with an item now too, even if my own favoured class has an item I only use to find something more useful or fun as quickly as possible. I feel like BHVR gave the Scouts keys because they saw in their stats how many chests I used to waste time opening in all the previous 2V8s (surely Escapists should be the ones with a key and Scouts should be given a Fog Vial?). I don't know why, but it was always the Scouts that were raiding chests in 2V8. Maybe because the other classes have abilities that do what items do and the Scouts don't.
Anyway, I'm still opening a lot of chests and ignoring all those maps/toolboxes/keys and salts, but at least I'm not spending half the game doing it anymore.
I think the 'feel' reason for scouts having the key is to use the aura reading property to see the other survivors (which makes sense for a scout having perception). But in gameplay it is certainly far better and more interesting to open chests.
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@esarraf said:
Gotta ask, why would Guides be worthwhile at all? They do literally nothing besides lol blastmine. Ideally you'd have 3 escapists, 3 scouts, and 2 medics. Escapists are extremely good at wasting killers time and getting saves. Scouts are needed for pallets in the late game and having 3 is plenty, while medics can theoretically be broken from their aoe heal in a chase this would require a swf to be realistically strong since you just aren't going to have that level of coordination in soloq. Still their increased healing speed makes them great for saves.
Also yeah Torchbearers need massive buffs if I see more than one in the lobby I'll typically dodge just because of how awful they are.
The short answer on Guides is process of elimination. The medium length answer is that the other classes tend to take away from each other in a way the Guide doesn't. The long answer follows by working through the classes:
Medics - I think medics are the most important class, not having any is very bad for the team. 2 is the minimum, 3 is ideal as it gives a good map spread and makes the double burst insta heal more realistic to pull of. I think 4 is unnecessary and now medics are just running into each other doing heals instead of other important objectives.
So for medics I think there should be 2 to 3, with 3 being ideal.
Escapists - I really don't think they are that good, though two points on how I play.
1: I've never been a windows player, so I don't find it particularly changes much.
2: As killer, I don't chase the escapists. I just ignore them and focus on the classes that can actually do things. So the 'waste killer time' point only works if the killer falls for it.
The more general point is that sprint burst can't stack. If you have multiple escapists in the same area they aren't helping each other. One is plenty, two is possible but I don't think worthwhile, and the games I played were no one was escapist was some of the stronger survivor teams.
Additionally, because I believe in a lot of medics, this really tunes down the value of the self-heal that they get. If you have few medics the value of being the escapist jumps.
So 1 escapist, with zero or two being okay.
Scouts - These are a strong role, but the pallet rebuild has two issues.
1: Its strength is subjective to the killer duo that is faced on how much pallets work against them
2: Time commitment
Usually the ideal pallet(s) to rebuild are a little out of the way, meaning the Scout has to take time from doing the other tasks (gens/rescues/heals) to go rebuild.
Then you have the issues of the starting keys. Scouts should be opening all the chests they find, basically for toolboxes so other survivors can speed through gens (though a backup medkit or something else isn't a bad thing either). Anymore than two scouts though and this just becomes unnecessary as the Scouts will likely find more keys while opening chests.
In my experience I think the strongest part of Scout is being the time waster in chases. They are less obvious to killers, and the lingering aura read makes them strong loopers.
Thus I think at least one Scout is necessary, two is better, three is okay but not as strong. It is pretty funny though to be in a game with a lot of Scouts and just having infinite pallets.
Guides - So by process of elimination, we've now used up somewhere between 4 and 6 of the possible 8 slots we have, leaving Guides as the remaining. However, even beyond process of elimination, I think Guides are a strong role that stacks really well.
First, on its own, giving how much harder it is tracking gens, it can be useful to spot a gen near the end game that others might be overlooking. This can literally be the difference between an easy trial and the survivors throwing themselves against a pair of defending killers.
Second, the aura read it provides to other survivors is really important as in 2v8 vs 1v4 pairing up on gens is the better tactic given how strong gen regression can be.
Third, I think Blast Mine is pretty great for a few reasons. One, it provides the time waster/get away from gens in much the same way as an Escapist. Two, it breaks up the flow of killers who are working together as one gets stunned. Three, if you have a lot of Guides, killers have to start thinking over whether they want to kick a gen or not. This can be useful as it now allows survivors to stealth near a gen instead of just running away and might keep gens that aren't even blast mined safe. Fourth, it provides the Guide info, if they go do something else (likely a save) and the blast mine goes off, they now have info on a killer's location.
Fourth overall reason, they get their power from doing what they are supposed to be doing. The escapist is reliant upon the killer chasing them, the Scout has to trade off other objective time for rebuild, the Guide recovers their power while doing the thing they are meant to do (kind of like the medic).
Fifth, the toolboxes they have now are not a huge change, but can make the difference between popping an early critical gen and finishing the last gen of the game.
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Thoughts
RPD - Yes, this is currently extremely lopsided if the killers have any sort of organization. I think they could do a lot to rework the map by giving more paths from east to west and more gens outside, but it certainly needs changes.
Gen regression - It does feel very fast, as a survivor sometimes can be shocking if you run away for a moment and come back and see how much progress is lost. I'll have my own post on this, but I think the gen regression speed should be tied to the catch up mechanic and the rate should drop substantially as survivors are eliminated.
High Mobility Killers - They are definitely very strong. This has been proposed for 1v4 before, but I think certain kickers having weaker/stronger gen regression would help with this. I'll also add that a speedy killer takes away the down side of the two killers teaming up, giving up a lot of pressure on the rest of the map, because the fast killer can get to the other side so quickly.
Finding the Hook Spawn - It's an issue because the the strongest killer strat is still tunneling and with two killers even if one survivors manages to use their elusive to escape, well plenty of other survivors to become the target.
Trapper - I know that this is a common suggestion, but I feel like if there is no middle ground better to just remove him and call it a day. All traps and trapper just sets up a fort right at the start. We've been down that road before with other killers in 1v4 and know how the community responds.
Anti-camp - Agree that it should still apply with survivors close by. Unlike 2v8 were the anti-camp allows a free unhook, here the hook just gets moved.
Escapist / Torchbearer nerfs - being I think these are the weakest classes in a team game, seems unreasonable to nerf them. Killers can just ignore escapists until others are eliminated and the torchbearer endurance buff is pretty helpful to make killers consider what they are going to do.
We would get an alarming amount of players that simply don't understand that killers have basekit gen kick aura reading in the mode,I had this happen a lot as well and yeah, its concerning. Like there's an icon on your screen + general game knowledge, why are you hiding in that bush?
Out of the 250 games, we only had 3 that we considered close, and only 1 where all gens were completed before the wincon.I appreciate the thoughts but I'm curious, and I think about this for survivors on winstreaks, but how did the two of you not go mad with boredom?
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4120651#Comment_4120651
Definitely do let us know if you notice any changes (or heck, if you don't notice a change, as that's equally valuable) in matchmaking. We're keeping a close eye on this so we can keep the team working on it informed.
As for the note about sharing feedback, I totally get the frustration about the Forums closing. While the forums have always been an important piece of the collecting feedback puzzle (and speaking personally, they were first place I got to know the DbD community!), we take feedback from across the other DbD channels just as seriously.
I'd love to know, though, what would your ideal method of sharing feedback look like? We're always open to rethinking and adjusting how we go about thinks like gathering feedback, so I'm always down to hear!
I'd love to know, though, what wouldyourideal method of sharing feedback look like? We're always open to rethinking and adjusting how we go about thinks like gathering feedback, so I'm always down to hear!Ideal method? Probably something where people could make long form posts and reply to each other. It would help if recent comments where bumped to the top. Maybe even a little thumbs up system for people to express agreement instead of commenting. I think having different sub categories would also be helpful to focus discussions around things like the PTB. Different forums if you will. Oh, and if it had BHVR Official on it, that would make it much clearer.
Sorry, I know that's snarky and this isn't your decision, but those of us who like the forums like them because of exactly what they offer. You're saying feedback, we're saying discussions. For things like the matchmaking problems, anything would probably work to express frustration, but there's a lot more possibilities in a game like DbD. If something new comes out and some players like it and some players don't, sure BHVR might want to know 70% like/30% dislike, but it helps for the players to actually discuss what they like or dislike which makes it clearer what, if anything, needs to be addressed.
Discord that seems impossible. Reddit and Steam, which ones? I don't expect those to be official or have any anticipation that BHVR is looking at them and need to find the right ones.
Steam is probably the closest to these forums and once its open its clear to the user that BHVR has people there. Maybe I'm just attached to this design, but it looks like a step backwards (also strange for the many people not on Steam to use the Steam forums).
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119311#Comment_4119311
”You are still failing to grasp why survivor is currently miserable, it has nothing to do with if you can win but how you must win in the current game”
Ok, well let’s focus on this then. You say it’s not an issue of how often you escape. What % of your matches do you think you escape? Let’s say you’re escaping at the average 40% of your matches. So in those matches where you’re escaping, you’re still miserable - why? If it’s tunneling/camping or some other objectionable killer strategy that you feel is the problem, but you’re still escaping, then I don’t understand what the issue is. Why does it matter how the killer plays if you still get out?
Why does it matter how the killer plays if you still get out?I'm going to add on to others as my answer is a little different and ties back to the original point.
I want to play an engaging game, try to win (play my best), as survivor play for the team, but am far more interested in it being a competitive game than winning/losing.
Let me break that down
Engaging Game - The mechanics are interesting. If I just do gens and leave, its not fun. If I do a mix of gens, chase, rescues, and still lose, that's a lot better.
Try to win - I don't want to handicap myself and want to set out to win.
Play for the team - hatch escape doesn't mean much, its just a small mini game at the end.
Competitive game - good games are ones where the survivors finish the gens or get really close. If I'm survivor and we lose but all the gens were finished, that's preferrable to a game were we all escape and the killer got only two hooks.
Where I think DbD fails on this -
If as a killer I engage in the 'try to win', I lose out on the 'engaging'. I proxy camp the hook, tunnel, and generally find it uninteresting even if the survivors are good and I end up losing.
If as a killer I instead go for 'competitive game', I feel like I've cheated myself and insulted the survivors by not playing my best. Sure its more engaging, but winning or losing feels ultimately cheapened as I know a handicap was involved (though still, I prefer this over the former).
As survivor, if I gen rush, its usually not very engaging (especially if the killer tunnels, we just do gens, leave).
But one of the things I realized the more I played, and this goes back to the thread title, is that the best game I had as a survivor the killers either didn't have very good game sense or, and I think far more likely, like me trying to play nice to have a competitive game. And then even if I won it was like 'yeah, but he obviously could have tunneled early but didn't for the sake of a better game' which really hurt the enjoyment.
This is also where I think toxicity comes from in the game.
It's kind of like why I, and I know others, where enthused by the anti-tunnel / anti-slug ideas even from the killer perspective. It would have allowed me to 'play my best' as killer, if a survivor made themselves an easy tunnel I wouldn't have felt guilty about doing it, because the mechanics meant it was a trade off I would have to consider. And then when the idea vanished instead of getting refined, well, it was the possibility of a better game that went with it.
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Couple of points that I probably would have saved for another thread, but now that I may never know if such a thread will appear in the next month -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119304#Comment_4119304
Sure, both sides gets things and loose things. But there's a reason SB and WoO were still top 10 most used perks. Same with nerfed DS and DH. The better survivor perks came out years ago. Little has changed. StB the burden was probably the last big meta perk. I guess 5MA but that's just WoO 2.0. And both of those are set for nerfs. Basekit Endurance just got nerfed and is easy for many killers to eat right through. Same with DS. The moment I recover from a DS stun, the user is down again. That's because I play a modern strong killer. The big difference with killer and survivor is that strong killers keep coming out while the survivor meta stays mostly the same, even with nerfs. I don't think killer is easy. I was fighting for my life before the MMR rework but it is "easier than ever" to win more than you lose if you play nearly any killer released in the last couple years with meta perks.
and we need to remember that when both sides are experienced, things tend to be stronger on the survivor side.
I don't really believe this unless all four of the players are exceptional. In that case, yes, four exceptional people working together should win most of the time. But it seems like survivor is still called strong no matter how many nerfs they receive. Even now with nerf after nerf after nerf you're saying it. When does this stop being repeated? When survivors are perkless? When there are three pallets on the map? When every map is Fallen Refuge?
I don't really believe this unless all four of the players are exceptional. In that case, yes, four exceptional people working together should win most of the time.When you compare the two roles
If you want to be at the top of survivor/killer you'd need to - play a lot, study your own game, find other exceptional players to play against, learn the possible perks/maps, take the sweatiest builds (probably a few other things).
As survivor you have to do all that, but in addition - find three other people who aren't friends but as dedicated to the game as you are, practice with them, coordinate schedules on when you are going to play, prepare counterplay for an ever growing roster, memorize the maps even more as you don't have the basekit info (i.e. the clock system).
And I think its inevitable if one side is asked to do more than the other side, and they actually do it, that they have advantage. What I find most surprising is the pure sweat vs sweat match (4 person SWF vs Nurse) is as close as it actually is.
@wesker_shades said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119304#Comment_4119304
Cogs has a good point here.
While you mentioned that survivors has gotten basekit this and basekit that, alongside a near worthless anti-camp measure (that can be easily bypassed), the reality is that playing survivor outside of custom matches, or god forbid if you play soloQ or anything less than a 4-man SWF these days, you will have to sweat your bums off, and can't afford a single mistake to stay on par with recent killer releases, even if you run full meta perk builds. That is not fun or extiting gameplay anymore, it feels like a chore.To make a counterpoint to your argument, what has killers actually gotten over the years, especially since 6.1.0
- Much slower healing speeds, and especially self-healing on the survivor side.
- 90 second gens, up from 80 seconds.
- Many, many perk buffs, and add-on buffs.
- Complete reworks, often leading to much stronger kits.
- Much less safe pallets for survivors.
- Less strong window setups for survivors.
- More aura read perks, and lots of them.
- Many of the strong survivor perks from the past are now heavily nerfed.
- Ghoul, and subsequent outright broken strong releases (with the exception of Springtrap).
- Smaller maps
Another counterpoint is that, while the general survivor playerbase has developed a better understanding, so has the killer playerbase. The only time the survivor side is stronger is at the very top of the MMR bracket, like the 0.5% level or so. But for the more average players, the killer side is undoubtedly sronger as it currently is. They need to mess up royally in order to lose games.
While you mentioned that survivors has gotten basekit this and basekit that, alongside a near worthless anti-camp measure (that can be easily bypassed)So a very us vs them add on coming from me.
The gen block and the anti-camp frequently get brought up as ways killer play has been curtailed even though, as you point out, they aren't actually a big deal.
On the other hand, before the killer could basekit kill the last survivor, if a survivor was downed near the exit gates and the killer picked up, the survivors could body block / sabo the hook and make the killer drop the survivor and then all run out the door. The remaining survivor couldn't be picked up again because they'd wiggle off, allowing survivors to get a four out.
Now though, if the killer chases the others out, its an almost for certain guaranteed kill.
And I don't know if I've seen anyone other than myself point out that this was just a basekit buff to killers. Substantial? Of course not. Better for the game? Eh, probably. But for as much 'survivors get free stuff' that we here around some very lax mechanics, I've always been surprised that this change just goes unremarked upon. I think its a larger symptom of only seeing the issues for some people that back up their side.
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You're doing great work.
I don't have any suggestions at the moment, but its something I'll certainly give some thought.
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@GeneralV said:
Greetings, friends of the Fog! For the very last time here on the Forums, I hope this discussion finds you doing well.
By know I'm sure you are that the DBD Forums' days are numbered. It will remain until this year's Halloween, then it will be shut down, as per the recent announcement.
And well… it would be an understatement to say that these are terrible news. After so many years, so many discussions, so many posts, so many stories of the Fog shared, so many words said about DBD here, and it will all be gone a month from now.
It is hard to wrap my head around it, really.
I was planning to write this post only in October, but I've come to the realization that many people who saw the announcement will, understandably, not return here anymore, as there isn't really a point to do so. Therefore, I thought it was better to write this as soon as possible while people are still around.
It has been quite a journey in here these last seven years. When I joined, back in August of 2019, I did so with the intention of getting my favorite killer, the original version of Freddy Krueger, back to the game, as he had just been reworked. And while that was a failure, I am glad for every second I've spent here. I've met many good friends through this Forum, and it has been an amazing to interact with this part of the DBD community.
Obviously, not everything was perfect. It would be wrong of me to not call out the problems caused by the flawed warning system in here, and the glaring issue of countless friends who lost their accounts because of it. This particular writing has been on the wall for a while now, and I have no doubt that the unfair punishments issued to good Forum members who helped drive constructive discussions forward is one of the reasons for the declining levels of user activity here. Not to mention things such as the feeling of having your feedback never acknowledged, or incidents we witnessed over the years, such as Streetwise and others.
That being said, these Forums will be missed. I cannot claim to speak for anyone other than myself, but I am sure some people would agree that there isn't a replacement for this space the DBD community had. DBD Reddit, the Discord server, the Steam Forums. None of them are the same thing that we had here and, I dare say, all of them are much worse. Unfortunately I believe this will be the end of community engagement for many users, and if not that then overall a worse experience when doing so.
It is sad to see that this Forum will end this way. It truly is. Despite its flaws as a platform, these Forums hold a special place for me. The outstanding support I got for my Old Freddy campaign, the many friends I've met through the threads here, the fun discussions, the different perspectives… these are things that I will never forget.
For those that I'll still be in contact with, I look forward for everything that is to come. And if there is anyone with whom this won't be possible, know that it has been a pleasure to be here and discuss everything Dead by Daylight with you.
So, for one last time, this thread is signed by GeneralV, your friend.
It's going to be a sad month.
See you around.
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In the possibility any of the following swing by, just to make sure they aren't forgotten.
I really enjoyed @zarr posts, not just because they made mine small by comparison, but that they really worked through an issue.
@C3Tooth always made things more enjoyable along with having good points.
And while I disagreed with them on a lot, I found @Ryuhi to always go out of their way to have a good, productive discussion.
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@jesterkind said:
To be specific, I'm not talking about the shift from Exposed to Broken. That nerf(? sidegrade?) isn't something I particularly mind.
What I'm referring to here is the change where one person using StB turns off everyone else's StB. Even setting aside that it's wholly unnecessary for this perk - multiple uses only even can happen in scenarios that aren't actively throwing is when someone's tunnelled - I truly do not think it's a good precedent for someone else's actions to turn off your perk completely.
The gap between solo queue and SWF is a lot more than just perks, obviously, but part of it is that sometimes, a perk you want to use is at odds with your teammates. Think something like Inner Strength not scaling well when everyone brings it, or when someone brings a boon perk.
For that example, unavoidable and just an annoyance. But, if someone using Inner Strength once genuinely stopped you from using your own at all, it'd be far worse, and that's what we're at risk of here.Once per trial per survivor is already restrictive enough, and any perk in the game should be balanced around the notion that "once per trial" means "up to four times per trial, depending on how many people bring it". If that means nerfing the effect, I'd argue that's genuinely vastly preferable to being locked out of using your own perks because someone else used theirs first.
That nerf(? sidegrade?) isn't something I particularly mind.It's certainly a nerf because not a healthy survivor is injured, so even if the killer doesn't come back they have a negative effect.
What I'm referring to here is the change where one person using StB turns off everyone else's StB. Even setting aside that it's wholly unnecessary for this perk - multiple uses only evencanhappen in scenarios that aren't actively throwing is when someone's tunnelled - I truly do not think it's a good precedent for someone else's actions to turn off your perk completely.Much like how BHVR approached Diminishing Returns, I think they are listening to arguments that are missing a few key points of logic. Multiple survivors bringing the same perk already has a downside in the trade off they've had to make from other perks. It's especially silly implementation for a counter perk meant to stop something that BHVR overtly recognized as unhealthy gameplay. If they get to stop it multiple times because they brought multiple uses, great.
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I understand that the effects are strong but that is a perk gone in a matter of seconds.Its not just the effect though that needs to be taken into consideration, but that survivors might spend a lot of time trying to find the totems. I'm not a huge fan of such huge risk/reward mechanics but they only work when they apply to both sides.
Perks to block totems -
Survivors blocking their boons - 15 seconds doesn't sound like enough as the survivor would need to block it and conceivably start making some distance so they'll want to block early. Additionally, I'm not sure it would be very enjoyable gameplay. You have a survivor just waiting around a totem and if a killer takes the time to go over and they find a blocked totem it would probably just feel pretty pointless.
Survivors blocking hexes - If I was worried about hexes I don't know why I wouldn't just take a faster cleanse. I think it would also create confusion among soloq about what hexes are or are not in play, while SWFs could hypothetically ignore cleansing entirely by just timing their hex blocking for when it matters.
I think totem blocking takes a clear working/cleansed mechanic and adds a possibility that just muddles things.
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We're going to get a lot of 'my time on the forum type' conclusion posts over the next month, aren't we? I'm already thinking about my own.
Anyway, yes, agree with this, a few things to add.
1: Let's say you're a developer who, for whatever reason, wants one side to achieve their objective 60% of the time and the other 40% of the time. A pretty easy way to achieve that is just make the 60% side more straightforward ('easier'). You put more skill expression burden on the 40% side, and the 60% side learns and responds from that.
2: DbD is a very 'stompy' game. This is true I think regardless of the MMR level. If the survivors are better than the killer, than to the killer they seem unbeatable, but if they are worse they are so easy they seem awful at the game.
3: All of the stomps have thrown off what actual 'even' would be like. The classic is the 'the game is survivor sided, look, they almost won this game'.
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Twitter (and other similar social media) are announcement platforms, not places for discussion.
Reddit has always seemed like a place to drop quick questions, again not have discussions.
Discord is a place to have casual, quick chats between a small to medium sized group, again not having actual discussions.
Steam, I guess there is no reason it should be as bad as it is, but seems absurd to go there.
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The forums are the official forums. That's always given more of a sense of weight to what BHVR people post here and whether things have a chance of being read or not. There should have been a direct line from starting things on the official BHVR forum and then spreading out from there.
Its also been a great place for actual discussions. The feedback on patches and PTBs seems more detailed here than other places. People have been able to post their ideas on why something does or does not work, and others can post detailed responses. Once upon a time we got BHVR people to weigh in on those issues as well.
Places like discord just seem to much more be 'who shouts the loudest'. Unfortunately that seems be a trend for BHVR on gathering feedback where they don't go beyond surface deep and thus continually seem like they are going to address community concerns, and then don't.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118795#Comment_4118795
The end goal for me is trying to distinguish between who is here to have a good faith discussion about balance vs who is saying things that obviously aren’t true just to poke at the side they don’t like. People can decide if they want to share their stats to show how much they play both sides - I really don’t care. But I can respect the opinions of those like the ones you mention above because, even if I disagree with them, if I know they’re being sincere and they can back up what they say.
And I’m happy to share my stats any time. Just a casual player who hovers around the average on both sides. I’m certainly not consistently stomping survivor teams like some claim is so easy to do for anyone with just a few hours experience:unsafe:blob:https://forums.bhvr.com/b3d3af8c-f57b-43ba-bb90-71f1e023baf6
The end goal for me is trying to distinguish between who is here to have a good faith discussion about balance vs who is saying things that obviously aren’t true just to poke at the side they don’t like.This sounds like the opposite of good faith. You're demanding people provide something and, if they do, it doesn't have any meaning.
You're also only asking this of people who disagree with you.
But I can respect the opinions of those like the ones you mention above because,But its not an opinion, its a factual statement. You're denying that a thing exists, and then when some people provide their evidence that it does, you just move on. 'Respect' is not a discussion.
Also I don't think the stats posted correctly, though given the stat page really only kinda works for one side of the game it creates its own issue.
You also don't lay out your definitions. What's consistently? How often does someone need to face 'good' survivors for it to count? What exactly do survivors have to do to qualify as good?
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
bruh this is the same reason they gave for distortion, do they play their own game. People return to the hook regardless lol
It's really sad how much BHVR is affected by the argument of: 'trust us, we'll play in a healthier manner if you make it easier'.
@Hoopme said:
To prevent tunneling we put a giant red arrow above the unhooked survivor
This made me laugh quite a bit. It actually was one of the reasons argued for when they showed the hook states directly on each survivor - just so the killer doesn't accidently tunnel.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118595#Comment_4118595
Nobody is “dominating” as killer after a few hours of play. I’ve been playing killer for a long time and I consistently face good survivors that provide plenty of challenge.
How are you coming to this conclusion? Are you dominating as killer yourself? I’d be curious to see your hours played as killer and kill rate stats if you’re willing to share.How are you coming to this conclusion? Are you dominating as killer yourself? I’d be curious to see your hours played as killer and kill rate stats if you’re willing to share.What's the end goal of the questions?
@cogsturning and @vol4r posted their stats above. This is one of the classic forum dodges of one sided demands for proof. And when people actually step up with proof, it usually leads to either goal post moving or other side steps to avoid it.
What's your definition of consistently face? What's your kill rate on various killers being you're asking others?
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118507#Comment_4118507
Let's say BHVR implemented extensive tutorials on how to loop and a practice ground that could be used to practice against various killers. It wouldn't matter because there would be no way to force someone to use it. I don't have a problem with casual players existing but so long as matchmaking can place those casuals on my team I am forced to deal with it. I can either accept that I lose solely because of matchmaking, always play in a four man SWF, or just stop playing survivor. Only the most casual of players are going to be OK with option one but they don't play enough to maintain queue times and if they started to they would run straight into the same frustrations. If someone does want to keep playing that means going with option two. The logical outcome remains pushing everyone other than four man SWF out of the survivor role.
There could be a way to make this casual player fine amongst less casual but that would mean some sort of overhaul to allow every survivor worse than the killer to die while the ones better than the killer survive. I don't see a way to do that which won't be screamed out of existence before it leaves the PTB. It would need to address the fact that tunneling can leave the match in an unwinnable state for all survivors but that is the primary reason tunneling is guarded so vehemently. I have also seen slugging for the 4k defended far too many times to believe we wouldn't see complaints about the number of times matches would end in a 2k even if that individual killers kill rate didn't budge.
Let's say BHVR implemented extensive tutorials on how to loop and a practice ground that could be used to practice against various killers.It's also a strange standard to say that one side has to do a bunch of tutorials to play the game, but not the other side.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118395#Comment_4118395
But that's the issue: its not an anti-camp system, its an antifacecamp system. That why it works. Many claim it doesn't work as an anti camp system because they don't like what this system allow.
I've said endgame chat because its a common thing people calling whenever they dislike about a killer behaviour as tunneling.
Its not clear about anti-tunnel. Some people claim that killing someone with 6 hooks still is tunneling and shouldn't be allowed; other believes a kill with 4 hooks is fine. People have been saying things about "tunneling" without even trying to define what is tunneling.
But that's the issue: its not an anti-camp system, its an antifacecamp system.Eh, not really though its common to say. It still punishes lingering near the hook or killers who frequently return expecting someone.
Many claim it doesn't work as an anti camp system because they don't like what this system allow.Whatever system is put in place to address anything you'll almost certainly having some people saying it goes too far and others that it doesn't go far enough.
But by putting a system in place BHVR moved the discussion to that. Instead of 'should the system even exist or not' people argue over the radius and how fast it should tick. That's an overall sign of a healthier game.
I've said endgame chat because its a common thing people calling whenever they dislike about a killer behaviour as tunneling.Sure they do, I've also been called a SWF, bully squad, gen rusher, etc. when not even close to anything of things. The fact that some people troll or have crazy takes isn't really relevant to the discussion.
Some people claim that killing someone with 6 hooks still is tunneling and shouldn't be allowed; other believes a kill with 4 hooks is fine.Very few people have said shouldn't be allowed. One of the more absurd things about the response to the anti-tunnel idea is that certain things were just becoming impossible. Some were harder or had bigger trade offs, which is what survivors have broadly been asking for, but the idea of impossible was never accurate.
People have been saying things about "tunneling" without even trying to define what is tunneling.This is true of everything. How fast does a squad have to do gens to be gen rush? How many hook sabos to be a bully squad (or is that even a bully squad?). How far does a killer have to go to not be proxy camping? This is just a normal part about how words work.
With anti-camping, anti-3 genning, anti-infinites, BHVR recognized an overall game problem and set reasonably cautious guidelines around extreme events and then modified from there based on feedback/gameplay/data. And, again of course, people disagree with them, that's normal, but at least they are approaching the issue in the correct fashion. BHVR did the exact opposite with the anti-tunnel ideas (i.e. throw everything at the wall instead of setting a starting point and working from there) which is why it was such an extreme failure. But the issue isn't shifting definitions or a foundational issue, that's true for many elements of the game, the issue was their approach.
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I still don't get the idea on why StB being used more than once a match is problematic. If there are two or more survivors the killer never finds/avoids and they get to use it, then the perk is doing what it is supposed to do.
Otherwise, yeah on what you typed.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118267#Comment_4118267
I don’t like WoO because it lowers the skill ceiling of the game, it also lowers the skill floor, which I’m completely fine with as we shouldn’t be punishing new players even more.
But the problem is it doesn’t lower the ceiling in a fun or interesting way, it just incentivizes you to turn your brain off and run to yellow pre drop and pre run, without having to learn tile spawns, tile weights, and resource management(this is the big one as you can severely screw your team over) ; which are fundamental parts of the macro game for survivor to keep tabs on and learn.
I don’t think it’s overpowered nor do I think it’s overly unhealthy but it does encourage a lack of thinking in the average player which over time will make you worse, because while everyone else is learning the game you’re falling behind and you don’t even know it.
I may have to check my bias here though, because I’m a big believer in self improvement and just learning the deep systems and mechanics of games and overall strategy/knowledge as a whole, I get not every player is like that, nor wants the experience I’m looking for. So perhaps it’s not my place to be discussing such things. But this is where I’m coming from personally.
And on a note about pain res, I think it’s completely fine when not stacked with other regression perks. because it actually does encourage you think about the game on a deeper level, you have to actually get a down to even use it, you have to track which survivors you already use pain res on, whether or not you wanna use the pain res right now or bank it for later , take note on where you’re looping and if you can make it to a scourge hook in time before a gen pops. It’s definitely a far cry from its initial debut of essentially infinite stacks of uncounterable regression.
Perhaps im being too reductive when it comes to WoO and the brain power it takes to use it though.
When I think of healthy perks a few things come to mind: does it meaningfully change the way you play the game, does it encourage you to interact with the games systems in a different way, is the effect noticeable for 1 or both sides, bonus points if it encourages your opponent to play around it in a back and forth. And perhaps the most important thing is it fun which of course is purely subjective.But the problem is it doesn’t lower the ceiling in a fun or interesting way, it just incentivizes you to turn your brain off and run to yellow pre drop and pre run, without having to learn tile spawns, tile weights, and resource management(this is the big one as you can severely screw your team over) ; which are fundamental parts of the macro game for survivor to keep tabs on and learn.That's fine. We all have things we like and dislike. I barely ever used windows because I felt like all the yellow on the map was ugly and broke immersion.
but it does encourage a lack of thinking in the average player which over time will make you worse, because while everyone else is learning the game you’re falling behind and you don’t even know it.I may have to check my bias here though, because I’m a big believer in self improvement and just learning the deep systems and mechanics of games and overall strategy/knowledge as a whole, I get not every player is like that, nor wants the experience I’m looking for. So perhaps it’s not my place to be discussing such things. But this is where I’m coming from personally.Yes and no. There are certainly casual players who want to boot up the fun, silly slasher game and just play and aren't thinking about long term skill expression.
But its also what we consider skill expression. You mention tile layouts. I suspect there are lots of players who would consider memorizing tile layouts and window placement not to actually be skill expression, just a chore. Instead they view skill expression more in game sense and decision making (likely other possibilities as well) and WoO let's them focus on the meaningful parts of the game.
@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118361#Comment_4118361
“By delving into 16 vs 4 you are going against the stated intent of your title. You are comparing killer perks to survivor perks and claiming that the 16 survivors get across the whole team are comparable to the 4 the killer gets.”
Apologies if I misled you. In your defense i phrased it poorly.
I wasn’t exactly comparing the number disparity between killer and survivor directly like you said that antithetical to my whole post. I was referring to the disparity within the roles themselves. How would balance botany when you can stack 3 additional times across the team and still have room for 12 more perks STOP. How would balance sloppy butcher in comparison to killer addons/powers and other anti healing STOP.
Looking back and reflecting I really wish I could phrase it better I can’t to seem to exactly describe how im thinking about it.
And like Dodoswarm mentioned killers do have their powers and addons to think about on top of perks.
And survivors have items. Which I didn’t really factor in when making my original post.
This also makes me think how cool a draft perk game mode could be with beefed up perks but no repeats between survivors, could be fun for build crafting, kinda like a more controlled chaos shuffle.How would balance botany when you can stack 3 additional times across the team and still have room for 12 more perks STOP. How would balance sloppy butcher in comparison to killer addons/powers and other anti healing STOP.I'm stealing a line from someone, but 'game design isn't easy'.
However, they aren't in a vacuum. If we're just talking balance, the starting point is clear - is a certain game element (perk, map, killer, etc) over or under performing? If so, why might that be? Simple nerfs/buffs might be all that is needed, or you could have a deeper design problem.
Take botany - BHVR should have data on how strong it is if 1 person runs it, 2 people, 3 people, or 4 people. They could look to see how people do with it and if its a problem (they should also look to see if there is something its paired with that might be the issue, such as the Asian self-heal meta).
The issue becomes trickier if its a perk that does something some players find unenjoyable but others like (i.e. Ghoul), then you have trickier decisions.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117290#Comment_4117290
I believe there is a lot of miscommunication and confusion around this topic. Probably the majority of players agrees that hard tunneling isn't healthy for the game. But what I've seen too is some people considering so many things as "tunneling" that the issue got diluted in vague discussions that "bad players tunnel" without addressing what they've meant for tunneling. In pub matches people accuse others of "tunneling" even when its a 12 hook game.
In pub matches people accuse others of "tunneling" even when its a 12 hook game.I say this about a few things, but I really don't think people should take seriously what people say in end game chat. Some players are just trolls who will say something negative and others are just emotional/heated after an intense game and overreacting to what happened.
Which, to kind of get around to my point and I think @Aven_Fallen - whenever people discuss this is in a calm manner, there are pretty clear definitions drawn of where tunneling is. Does it vary person to person? Sure, but people are generally able to establish what they view as problematic and not just use it as a buzz word.
BHVR's job should have been to cut through that and establish a clear line. They did it with anti-camp, players had, and still do, widely differing definitions of camping, but BHVR drew clear lines where they thought it was a problem. With anti-tunnel they failed to do that in a pretty shocking fashion, but it is something that they easily could have been done.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118220#Comment_4118220
if you actually read what words were said and understand what individual words mean on their own and then what they mean when they are put together, you would clearly be able to see that my statement and premise did not claim that killers do not have object permanence.
I cant abide dishonesty in conversation. you can disagree and nort resort to dishonest tactics to try and bolster your point. I am not interested in communicating further with you.
I think you're upset that I threw your own tactic back at you. You tried to discard an entire post and avoid either defending or clarifying your own words based on a dishonest reading of what was written. I merely did the same thing and even pointed out I was doing it.
I however, after throwing it back at you, still went on to actually explain the point again to give you an opportunity to respond. That's what honest conversation actually is.
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I liked the title, but the argument is severely flawed.
You have to keep in mind thatkillers only get 4 perks(maybe half a perk with some specific add ons) andsurvivors, in total, get 16 perks.I can't believe this argument has stuck around as long as it has.
If gens took 180 seconds, the killer could play with 0 perks. If gens took 30 seconds the survivors could play with 0 perks. Just because both sides have something that is called the same thing ('perks') doesn't mean one having more is in anyway relevant. You have to compare all of the elements together of the game.
and it’s no surprise over the last few months we’ve seen bhvr steadily lower the power ceiling on survivor perks; because unlike killersurvivor can stack duplicate perks with no downsideOf course there's a downside. They are dedicating a perk slot to something that could serve as another purpose and/or exposing all of themselves to the same counter (going to focus on the former). If four survivors bring StB, and only 1 of them end up using it, that means 3 survivors have a wasted perk slot that could have done something else.
You can't ignore opportunity cost, counter risk, or wasted potential when discussing the idea of survivors having redundancy in the perks they bring. They are trading efficiency in something else to increase the chance they are ensured of having something (which, to be clear, as a gameplay element is absolutely fine)
Back to the top
As an example let’s take the recent side grade to Windows of opportunity, many people have made their feelings known about not liking the change simply because it isn’t an unhealthy perk on the surface and it’s one of the most popular survivor perks, and has been for years.
So people upset at the change go and say‘well what about the popular killer perks like pain res that should be nerfed too’and that’s where they lose me.Because if a person argues that the perk has been common for a long time, the reasoning being popular perks should be changed for the sake of change, people are right to ask why it doesn't apply to killer perks if the goal is to shake up the meta.
If people argue that WoO is handholding for survivors, and the reasoning is handholding is bad, people are right to ask why not just the perk changes but the devs words are boosting handholding for the killers.
If your argument is that WoO was overpowered/unhealthy, then you shouldn't fall into the trap of either the earlier two reasonings, and just explain why its bad. Its possible something could work for killer and not survivor (or the other way around), but you have to explain the reasoning why its only different/bad on one side, and 'power budgets', 'perk stacking', 'meta shakeup', 'handholding', are either all real bad reasonings and/or being very selectively applied.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118197#Comment_4118197
It can block totems, but survivors can now break totems from like 10%-100% faster while also avoiding being able to scream. Thoth will now entirely depend on how often you can hook. Rather than protecting the totems manually like jason or judgement. So theres ways to keep people away from totems but once they touch them they get deleted in seconds.
For examples 'better than new' makes survivors break totems 50% faster, calm spirit 10% faster while immune to scream, 'flow state' 15% per stack up to 5 (75%). And small game now just shows totems through walls
What made totems hard to break was constant interuption while the totems took so long to break. Now you have a very short window to stop them by catching and hooking someone.
It can block totems, but survivors can now break totems from like 10%-100% fasterThey already could with Counterforce. This isn't Chaos Shuffle. The fact that there are more perks that do the same thing doesn't actually make it anymore likely survivors take them.
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@T1MEXII said:
I believe that the rework was revealed around March 2025. I was just wondering if you planned on releasing a PTB for that soon?
I believe that version of the rework was officially cancelled. People seem to have radically different ideas on what direction to go with Skull Merchant, which seems to just leave her stuck where she is.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118149#Comment_4118149
When has in the history of the game has been using scratch marks and blood pools "auto pilot mode"? if this is what your going to start off the premis of your message with, the remainder has no value to me.
if this is what your going to start off the premis of your message with, the remainder has no value to me.Hey, I can play this game to: if your premise is that a killer can't maintain basic object permanence when a survivor goes around a corner, then your posts shouldn't be taken seriously.
Anyway, the killer has varying levels of access to aura read, scratch marks, blood pools, sounds they can hear, their own eyes to see the survivors, and their own brains and game sense to make deductions about where they might be. The only thing that makes this not an autopilot is that the survivors have tools to deny the killer some of these methods, but never all of them. Wanting all of them is indeed asking for the killer to be on auto-pilot mode where they are just pointed at the survivors. To echo what @MashedBroccoli said, we're getting entirely new levels of hand holding for killers.
Like I asked, what actually do you want the killer player to do? What actual skill expression are they meant to deploy to find the survivors?
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@CrossTheSholf said:
The Anti Tunnel "solutions" fundamentally broke the game. They had so many issues with determining "what is tunneling" that killers would get punished just for playing the game
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118183#Comment_4118183
Again, what defines tunneling.
To quote from my first post:
12 months ago - Here's the anti-tunnel PTB. It's anti-tunnel everything. Even more types of tunneling than we can remember with FOUR substantially game changing punishments/ways to make tunneling harder. You wanted anti-tunnel, we're giving you all the anti-tunnel.I don't think BHVR should be let off the hook because they didn't take the time to figure out what the actual complaints where and instead just threw everything at the wall - if anything it proves their failure wasn't proof of the idea being bad, but they had no clear concept going into the issue. Many, many people have proposed pretty simplistic reasonable solutions over the years, but BHVR took the approach of crazy overhaul or nothing and since has gone in the direction of making tunneling easier.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118094#Comment_4118094
i am also a stealth survivor, and i enjoy very much utilising stealth and such, its quite fun. but its not fun to deal with no tracking tools frequently and for long periods of time because again, 1. the game was not ever designed for you to track people based on that. thats just objectively the case. Would you enjoy the game as killer if there was no aura possibilities or scratch marks?
your eyes work when your looking at someone directly in your LOS. but every single map is filled to the brim with los breakers. i can just slap on lightweight and boom now you will never know where i am because the one tool your using to track me which was never intended to be the primary way to track people is no longer at your disposal. now i do that a couple times a match and waste your time and now you lost the game because you are just lacking the tools that the game is designed around in order to function properly.
if there is 3 gens and 3 different directions you can go to. you know whats helpful to even know where to go? auras and scratchmarks so you can get to playing the game.
i promise you that 99% of killers do not enjoy spending multiple minutes traversing the map not in chase because they cant find anyone because everyone is hiding or preventing the tools from working that allow chases to happen unless you stumble in to someone and even on incredibly proficient killers, they can get disoriented and confused the second a surv just appears to vanish in thin air.
large parts of chases have to operate without you having LOS. if i have to literally spend half the map to catch up to you in a straight line, how exactly am i going to be able to spend half the map keeping track of where your going when you can move left or right, move out of sight and there are 20 different directions you could have gone and i have no option but to make a guess.
you might not feel bothered by it when you run into it every once in a while. deal with it frequently or have multiple teams using it (where there are perks that completely remove the footsteps and breathing as well) and tell me how fun of an experience that would make killer?
furthermore, not everyone has the same level of hearing acuity, nor do they have good headsets. some people only have their tv speakers, some only have a 30 dollar walmart headset and some people dont have sharp hearing like myself. i hear ok, but i had lots of ear infections when younger and it dulled my hearing. the game ISNT precise with its sounds. cuz the game wasnt built like COD where such information is critical. you can also only hear footsteps within 8 meters.
How is that useful when a massive amount of chases will have a distance beyond 8 meters? if your within footstep range i probably already see you or your on the same tile, which has 3 different exits out of and if you choose an exit and are now 9 meters away, which exit you took is now a guess (educated guess sometimes but ALWAYS a guess)
and if im within footstep range, there is a good chance i have chase music going with some killers having more loud or obnoxious music. that music is extremely loud and overshadows all other audio in the game. i play with volume all the way up specificalkly so i can hear these subtler sound but that means that all other sounds are bombs in my ears though the chase music is the main issue.
if games were slower than they are and i could afford to play wheres waldo with survivors than sure, not as big of a deal. i dont have time to play wheres waldo, i need to find my chases or im going to tunnel out the person who i can actually engage the game with.
What exactly do you want the killer role to do? Your post makes it sound like you want killer to be auto-pilot mode.
your eyes work when your looking at someone directly in your LOS. but every single map is filled to the brim with los breakers. i can just slap on lightweight and boom now you will never know where i am because the one tool your using to track me which was never intended to be the primary way to track people is no longer at your disposal'The one tool?' 'Never know where I am?' Just because someone goes around a corner doesn't mean they cease to exist. Part of game sense is trying to anticipate where they might be going. Even without scratch marks the killer can use their surroundings to make a prediction on where they are going.
The survivor should of course also be taking this into account, but that's what makes it a game.
now i do that a couple times a match and waste your time and now you lost the game because you are just lacking the tools that the game is designed around in order to function properly.'Game is designed around' - the line of sight blockers aren't there accidently. Not even the spaghetti code is that bad.
furthermore, not everyone has the same level of hearing acuity, nor do they have good headsets.People don't have the same level of eye sight, or reflexes, or memory. Any game mechanic you can think of will favor or disfavor certain players.
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@Mandy said:
We don't give much information on how this impacts MMR as we don't want MMR to be the focus here. The player stats also will likely take some time to update as they're going through their own UI related things, given the way things are represented in the game and the Stats page doesn't take from in-game data but from the game's UI.
I believe the change in wording to Surrender definitely indicates that this is losing a match overall.
I believe the change in wording to Surrender definitely indicates that this is losing a match overall.That immediately though makes raises another issue: if we can have a definitive wording in this case, why can't we always have definitive wording?
If surrendering is definitively losing, then what is abandoning? What's the point in telling us what something is considered without telling us what it means?
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@crogers271 said:
I'm never crazy about these posts because BHVR's player count is ridiculously healthy, but here goes:
Overall, the things I enjoy I find less and less enjoyable as time goes on, while the things I dislike about the game I find more and more aggravating.
More detailed reasons:
1: I really like 2v8. I like Chaos Shuffle. Event depends on the event. So if I'm playing regular 1v4 I'm thinking 'there's multiple superior versions of this game, why am I playing this version?'.
2: A general disagreement with the game direction over the past year or so. I feel like for the years before 2025 they were improving the game, albeit slowly and taking far more stumbles than were needed, but they were working out some of the things that were major game problems. I feel like they are backslipping though into the elements of what I think of as the game at its worst.
3: The way they approach marketing I find more and more annoying. As an example, the perk shake up, we got some perks as a teaser, more to come. Once upon a time I would have found it enjoyable I think, now I'm in the mood of 'just tell us already'. The dribs and drabs of info come off more as exploitative than communicative.
It took like a couple of days for number 3 to come through again (the what are abandon and surrender post).
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117859#Comment_4117859
Remember during the anti-tunnel ptb when they cited player freedom of choice and it being too restrictive? Apparently that only goes one way. Killers can choose; survivors can die.
A new take on an old adage:
It's not killer's job or BHVR's to worry about survivors fun.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117388#Comment_4117388
I don't really subscribe to the idea that it's super survivor sided, mostly because killer macro is much easier in the mode than survivor. Killers can just lock down a cluster of gens and defend them. The amount of matches my survivor teams lose with one gen left but everyone still alive is absurd because of this. It's amplified by the fact that almost no one wants to play Guide and focus on center gens. They want to do the 2v8 equivalent of 3 genning themselves by doing safe edge map gens. And the layout of these maps is much less known to the average player, so it's harder to judge. But the killer gets that info for free.
The buffs that killers have are also weirdly understated by the community. I haven't played Wesker in months because of how buggy he's been but I dusted him off last night and holy crap, I'd forgotten how crazy strong he is with the third dash plus the almost instant refresh. And I'm doing the classic Shadow Wesker thing where I'm just snatching oblivious people up mid-heal with my free aura read. Killers have more than people want to admit.
And yeah, the survivor sided benefits don't matter if the teammates are crap and don't know how to utilize anything.
I don't really subscribe to the idea that it's super survivor sided, mostly because killer macro is much easier in the mode than survivor.I agree, I think in part because 1v4 is more lopsided, something being roughly balanced seems survivor sided. Killers have a lot less games were they just smash the survivors compared to 1v4, but last time BHVR reported the kill rate numbers it still leaned killer. It's just there are a lot more matches with just a few kills, compared to 1v4 where if survivors win its a good chance all four get out.
It's also which version of killer are we talking about or averaging them together, because just like 1v4 there's a huge difference between randoms paired together instead of coordinated pairs, except its now on the killer side instead of survivor.
They want to do the 2v8 equivalent of 3 genning themselves by doing safe edge map gens.I've had lots of players running to the edge of the map for heals. Sometimes even medics and it's like 'we already would have had you healed back there, stop wasting time'.
I think one of the big issues, and would switch the balance of power of the game, is if more survivors understood the hook state economy. Zero hooks? Be aggressive, especially if others have been hooked. Two hooks? Play absurdly safe especially if no one else is on two hooks. Except people don't adjust enough, cautious players stay cautious the whole game, aggressive players get eliminated quickly leaving the team in trouble.
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I think ruins it is probably going too far, but yeah, the slowly leading zombies around is not a great game.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117615#Comment_4117615
Pop being replaced with undone or someone slotting monstrous shrine into their build doesn't change the fact that I am still facing gen focused slowdown/regression/blocking with the killer going for a tunnel out. Some of the chase perks will see play but the primary meta will not change.
The survivor changes will not change which perks survivors run because our perk slots are already filled with anti-tunnel (StB nerf, Borrowed Time nerf, no other changes), anti-slug (no changes), gen speed (stake out replaced by this is not happening, no real change). FmA will just replace windows and beginners will need to run both meaning less space for anti-tunnel (even easier tunnel on the player trying to learn). Flow State needs to hit 3 tokens before its healing speed approaches Botany, endgame unhook is the only real advantage. Empathic doesn't work on yourself so still botany. Road life? Better to just bring a medkit.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117599#Comment_4117599
Monstrous shrine will absolutely see play, pair it with pain res (untouched) and the new undone to kick gens with built up tokens when someone isn't on a scourge hook. You get an uncleansable ruin up most of the match while still being able to kick gens when necessary.
Pop being replaced with undone or someone slotting monstrous shrine into their build doesn't change the fact that I am still facing gen focused slowdown/regression/blocking with the killer going for a tunnel out.But you might get to see different icons in the end game screen? Is that not enough of a meta shakeup for you :)?
Flow State needs to hit 3 tokens before its healing speed approaches Botany, endgame unhook is the only real advantage. Empathic doesn't work on yourself so still botany. Road life? Better to just bring a medkit.The bigger issue with the healing perks is, being they can't stack, they're all just slight variations of the same theme. They aren't really meaningful buffs. Instead of running botany I can now run things that are basically the same as botany. Yay, buffs.
That seems to be a lot of the 'buffs' on the survivor side in the diminishing returns world - instead of using perk A you can now use perk B instead and its slightly different.
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@Crowman said:
There are more source of endurance than just unhook protections and dead hard.
Made for This provides Endurance when you pick up a survivor from dying.
Soul Guard gives you Endurance when you heal/recover from dying.
We're going to live forever grants Endurance to a survivor you pick up.
Then you have killer powers like Legion and Ghoul.
I think the idea behind this change is interesting. It would allow a survivor to build a protection build around MoM. But there's not really many reliable means to give yourself endurance besides Dead Hard to make such a build worthwhile. It is technically a time saver as it means you do not have to mend which is helpful against Legion, but then it's just a similar problem that Virgil was having against Clown/Freddy.
Overall, probably shouldn't change BT to this as the design space is just not well supported with current game mechanics.
It's kind of funny your posts came right below @Rogue11 's.
Then you have killer powers like Legion and Ghoul.I'm not sure what the scenario is where you get hit by these killers where endurance would not already trigger deep wounds.
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First impressions from the post:
Better than New: Looks good
Emphatic Connection: I'll be upfront, diminishing returns never should have applied to healing perks. Stacking them was never a problem (outside absolute extremes which could have been dealt with differently) and created some interesting builds. We now just have multiple healing perks and you should never run more than one and they all do about the same thing with slightly different flavorings. So yeah, its another bland healing perk.
Flow State: Not a fan of 'win harder' perks, but being they are part of the game, looks okay.
Friendly Competition: SWF boost? Not sure they need it, or why BHVR is leaning so heavy into 'gen rush good', but okay. I look forward to the world record escape being broken again.
Bound by Obsession: This I was not expecting to see buffed. You sure? This just seems like if you have a really good survivor player they can pop this on and invite chase, if they aren't chased they just hammer out gens even faster.
Blood Pact: It's fine, but again feels like boosting a perk that SWFs have an easier time with, which seems counterintuitive to where changes need to be.
Boon: Illumination: Another looks good. Actually, full out, really good job on the idea here.
Borrowed Time: I'm taking an idea from the general forum, but this is a massive nerf. If you make it so it doesn't extend the elusive it would actually be a pretty good anti-tunnel perk.
Dark Sense: As mentioned, don't like the 'win harder' perks, though this one isn't as egregious. Sure, looks good.
Down the the Last: Better than it was certainly.
Do No Harm: "We want Do No Harm to better distinguish itself from other flat healing speed perks." It won't, you've just got a bunch of healing perks that will differ ever so slightly from each other. Otherwise, fine.
Five Moves Ahead: If you're going to take out the windows ability it deserves more.
Pharmacy/Plunderer's Instinct: These are fine, but chest builds will always be a problem as long as chest offerings remain and people have to sacrifice BP offerings to actually get value out of them.
Premonition: Sure, simplified, good.
Road Life: It's better, but it would have been hard to make the perk worse. It's unclear whether the heal on others still remains (it should, then it would be an interesting perk).
Self Preservation: The reasoning here is really bad. Survivors are too hard to find so the killer just camps the hook? That seems like its own problem that needs to be addressed.
I do look forward one day killer perks being nerfed with the reasoning of 'survivors just stop doing the objective and hide', but I don't think we'll get that.
Shoulder the Burden: "We still fully expect the perk to be strong in the right hands." So if the survivors are good they get to have anti-tunnel? This logic is backwards. Tunneling is the most problematic for newer survivors, skilled players, especially SWFs have a lot of other ways to counter it. But you've now made a perk that whose value will remain in SWF, but soloq can actually disable each other's perks?
The injury/broken and disabling are entirely unnecessary. The idea of the perk is to prevent tunneling. If the killer tunnels so hard that survivors get to use it multiple times, that's the point of having the perk and having sacrificed multiple slots for it.
The way this is getting changed seems like BHVR has been listening to some bad arguments. If you wanted to nerf STB here would be a suggestion - if the killer gets three unique hooks, STB deactivates.
Slippery Meat: Good, probably not actually useful, but the perk needed to die. Can we just go all the way and fully remove random unhook chances?
Small Game: Good, simplified, sure.
Solidarity: Yeah, fine.
Spine Chill: Good. I do find the note funny that you're keeping an eye on it. Wouldn't want things to get too crazy with '10% vault speed'.
Stakeout: I really don't like the idea of this perk even though it needed changed. So really good survivors just regularly knock 16% off a gen and its actually detrimental to newer players.
Wake Up!: Sure, good, needed buffed.
Windows of Opportunity: Best of luck to the new players I guess.
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Some of the positive changes are good, far from meta shake up though. Survivors are getting that via nerfs I guess.
It's a nice try on healing perks, but all of them are basically slight variations of each other.
A few times in the patch notes it is referenced that BHVR wants to help new players. That's an admirable goal, its just not close to being accomplished. You've buffed some perks that will only be advantageous to good players / SWFs, while specifically worded your explanation for Shoulder the Burden as if counters to problematic gameplay will only be available to the "right" players. Seriously, if you're ever typing out a sentence like "We still fully expect the perk to be strong in the right hands" take a moment to think on who you are designing the game for. Experienced strong players and SWFs, or everyone?
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I should have waited a day for my anti-tunnel timeline I guess.
Anyway @sizzlingmario4 has a great idea for how the perk would actually be really useful as an anti-tunnel perk.
I suspect though we'll hear people say 'no, it's now actually S Tier. You just need to combine it with adrenaline, get unhooked with the last gen half way done, tank the hit, last out the chase, and boom, heal for the end game.'
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@Arcturus said:
Love how this update SP got cut in half and StB got murdered in the back alley with most of the other survivor perk changes honestly being closer to QoL updates rather than meaningful buffs, while most of the killer perk changes make them actually strong and some of them might contest the meta.
I like to see more perks becoming viable and strong, but survivors got the short end of the stick once again.
The QoL of life updates were a very 'oh, seriously, you got me again BHVR'. This change could/should have been done in any random patch. But to include it as part of the 'meta' shake up to justify how many perks are being changed is eye roll worthy.
@cogsturning said:
The Self-Preservation nerf notes read like this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/J8JWUYS7B91I/screenshot-20260915-121447.jpg
This logic is nonsensical. If the issue is killer perks, SP counter one whole aura perk, BBQ, which can and is also countered by lockers. It partially counters Friends and Alien Instinct, but not fully. With this nerf, it will still do those exact same things. A killer that's clinging that hard to aura will still go back to the hook.
If the issue is that they get into chase with someone who has no scratch marks, that person still has 15s to prerun and hide when they hear the terror radius. So nothing changes about the initial effect. Also, I'm not sure why the devs care if the killer goes back to the hook, since anti-tunnel is something they keep rejecting and nerfing.
What SP does allow for in 30s is for the user to safely get across the map for an unhook, and with the added Elusive on unhook, returning to the hook if the unhooker has SP is now countered, as there will be no scratch marks at all. So this reasoning is either completely untrue and is just to hide that they're caving to complaints, or it's not thought out at all. This perk has the opportunity to be more tactical than ever with the recent basekit changes and instead it's getting nerfed into near uselessness, really good solely for personal ratting and not for macro.
And if this goes through, it will make two for two of Yun-Jins reworked perks getting the hammer treatment. What was even the point of reworking them?
Killer playing in an unhealthy manner? Obviously we need to nerf survivors. I'm sure people will switch to playing killer in a healthy manner right away. Well, maybe just a few more nerfs.
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I'm never crazy about these posts because BHVR's player count is ridiculously healthy, but here goes:
Overall, the things I enjoy I find less and less enjoyable as time goes on, while the things I dislike about the game I find more and more aggravating.
More detailed reasons:
1: I really like 2v8. I like Chaos Shuffle. Event depends on the event. So if I'm playing regular 1v4 I'm thinking 'there's multiple superior versions of this game, why am I playing this version?'.
2: A general disagreement with the game direction over the past year or so. I feel like for the years before 2025 they were improving the game, albeit slowly and taking far more stumbles than were needed, but they were working out some of the things that were major game problems. I feel like they are backslipping though into the elements of what I think of as the game at its worst.
3: The way they approach marketing I find more and more annoying. As an example, the perk shake up, we got some perks as a teaser, more to come. Once upon a time I would have found it enjoyable I think, now I'm in the mood of 'just tell us already'. The dribs and drabs of info come off more as exploitative than communicative.