STB should not go ahead, Alternative changes need to be found.
Looking at the Ptb to Live developer update we are still going ahead with the Stb changes.
The only change that seemed try to addressed the core issue with STB was removed(I understand the reason) so the changes that are left are really only there to help killers who are frustrated with not being able to take advantage of exposed, rather the real issues with the perk.
What changes could actually help address issues with perk?
Aura Reveal - Aura reveal on the shoulder to burden user so they cannot just hide, if the killer chooses they will need to take chase.
If you used STB you cannot be STB - This one Imo is the main one, Once you have used STB you cannot be STB anymore, this is to address hook shuffling. if you are on 2/0/1/0 and someone takes it from the two making it 1/0/1/1 then you hook the stb to get 1/0/1/2 then another stb comes and you back with no one of death hook at 1/1/1/1.
With these changes the killer would have pressure after chasing the STB user, because they cannot be STB.
This would also allow players to still be able to use STB if they have also brought it, just not on someone who has already used
Extending Exposed time - I think extending the exposed time to what the broken timer is in the PTB would be fine and would keep the core fun of chasing down the exposed timer while allowing the killer more time to take advantage of the exposed.
Disabled at 1 gen left - this one im not as 100% on this one as I am with my other suggested changes, but this would nip in butt the loosing pressure issue as once one gen is left, you can safely tunnel someone out if needed for the pressure leading into end game.
The changes above would be nerfing the perk, but it would not be making the perk unfun for surviours to use while not addressing the main issue with the perk.
I really do not want to see these changes go to live, they are bad changes that seem like they have only taken into account how one side feels about the perk, while not looking at it in a more broad senses across both roles.
Comments
I might be misreading you, but here goes -
Starter - I don't think StB is a problem. It's designed as a counter against a specific tactic. A survivor gives up a perk slot around something that might not happen (or might happen to them). I think counter perks have to be strong otherwise why not just do something else (i.e. gen rush).
But here goes:
Aura reveal - kind of seems too easy for a killer proxy camping. StB is supposed to punish tunneling. Now the amount of time it has saved would probably be match by just running Reassurance without any of the downsides.
If you use, you can't have it used on you - I don't see why its an issue. To use your quote
if you are on 2/0/1/0 and someone takes it from the two making it 1/0/1/1 then you hook the stb to get 1/0/1/2 then another stb comes and you back with no one of death hook at 1/1/1/1.I don't see why we prevent this for the survivors just because things ended up falling exactly right. If it was just those two survivors with StB, that just seems either lucky or they avoided the killer, and thus traded off time. If all the survivors brought it, well that seems a case of trade offs. If the killer got the StB survivor on the hook quickly because of proxy camping, I don't see a problem with getting them shouldered.
Disabled at 1 gen left - I don't have a problem with catch up mechanics, but they don't really exist in 1v4 outside the natural game progression. If we're going to put them in the game they need to exist a lot more broadly. If survivors manage to make it to endgame with the perk and that lets them turn a 3E into a 4E, I don't see why that's any more of an issue than them using it earlier to keep a game alive (anymore than I see killer's using their perks/strategy to turn a 4E into a 3E at the end)
Two quotes from your post I want to highlight
With these changes the killer would have pressure after chasing the STB user, because they cannot be STB.you can safely tunnel someone out if needed for the pressure leading into end game.I guess my question is, what's the problem with the survivors using their perks to try and deny this. I don't know why the killer should anymore have a safe path forward than the survivors do. It also seems to take out the variability of the game and becomes a 'if they do this, you do that' type of scenario.
I do not think Stb is a major issue,but if they are going to change it sadly, the hook shuffling I find to most valid issue ive seen regarding the perk as I do think at some point in match killer should be able to pressure the match and reliably focus someone out (reliably in the way as not run the risk of loosing death hook, not that its easy to do)
Aura reveal - kind of seems too easy for a killer proxy camping. StB is supposed to punish tunneling. Now the amount of time it has saved would probably be match by just running Reassurance without any of the downsides.
Aura reveal suggestion was mainly there to help killers with tracking the StB user (which is the only reason I can see why they would change it from exposed the injured) as ive seen people use then hide around so killer has to chase same person again.
I use StB and when i use it i expect to be chased. could add the condition of if killer is X meters away they get the aura reveal.
I guess my question is, what's the problem with the survivors using their perks to try and deny this. I don't know why the killer should anymore have a safe path forward than the survivors do. It also seems to take out the variability of the game and becomes a 'if they do this, you do that' type of scenario.
There isn't a problem, its just restricting it more while trying to keep the perk fun to use, which I dont think is a inherently bad thing as this was meant to be a meta shake up (all tho could of gave survivors some more good perks BHVR)
Taking if you STB someone you cannot be STB as that is my preferred change. I do not consider that giving a killer a easier path and the survivors are still able to use STB to take away pressure but using that STB you are telling the killer "hey chase me my hooks cant be taken"
Then the killer gets to choice to either chase the STB player and safely get pressure from them as nobody can STB them. BUT that player may be a way better looper then what they are expecting. or they can find someone else, but they run the risk of STB being in play again from someone else.
I dont mind putting myself at more of a risk if during the 1v1 I am able to show skill expression out-chasing the exposed timer, making killer loose pressure and now they have to either 2 tap you in chase or pressure the gens and find a easier target, I dont view it as "if they do this, you do that"
StB is designed to be an anti-tunnel perk, and it should do its job. The main issues with current StB are thus:
Neither of these issues are addressed by the PTB nor the soon-to-be-released versions of StB. I don't think your idea of disabling StB from working on a player who has used StB fully addresses issue #1 (because StB can still be used on the 2 hook survivor as long as they didn't use StB previously), and it comes with the added consequence that it also affects scenarios where only one player has 2 hooks (they are being hard tunneled) and they are then Shouldered. Then the StB user becomes a guaranteed tunnel out as their teammates, even if they have StB, can do nothing to help them, so it goes from a person dying in 3 hooks to dying in 4.
That is still the mark of a hard tunnel, exactly what this perk was built to combat. The current 2 minutes of broken also makes that tunnel extremely easy, as even when the person gets off their second stage hook, they have no ability to heal even if they got the chance, simply because the broken lasts so long.
So how do you fix both issues while keeping StB a strong deterrent against hard tunneling? First I'll go over the issues with Deli, and we'll try to get 2 with 1 stone. For Deli, the main issues are thus:
The nerf where they doubled the duration of broken to yet again be absurdly long did nothing to address any of these problems. Unfortunately issue #1 requires making the perk work off of a different activation condition, of which I'm not sure what it would be changed to. But issues #2 and #3 are easy. Change Deliverance to:
That solves 2/3 issues with Deli, and I believe with this the broken status effect could be placed back down to somewhere between 60 and 90 seconds. This also solves issue #2 with StB. To solve issue #1 of StB while keeping it a strong anti-tunnel perk while limiting its effect on killers that are not tunneling:
This is all you need to address issue #1. And if these changes were made, I would think that StB could be changed back to the same duration as I said with Deli (somewhere between 60 and 90 seconds) to still guarantee that the killer has plenty of time if they want to pressure the StB user while also not dooming them to having no option to heal even after they get off the hook. A similar amount of time being exposed would also work, although I think something like the Ghost Face exposed timer on the HUD would be useful for the killer to fully know who used the perk.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
I feel like this is the worst of both worlds and neither side is going to be happy with the perk now. On survivor you're punching a one way ticket to 2 hook states in record time if you use Shoulder now. Meanwhile killers are still gonna complain about the perk and act like it's broken (Hint: It sucks now) backed my a single rare edge case of an entire SWF using it (I have literally only seen this happen once or twice) so now nobody is happy.
new STB
Start with 3 tokens, if you are hooked STB deactivates. Whenever other survivor is hooked you lose one token, if all tokens are lost the perk deactivates. Successfull STB inflict exposed for 60s.
Would be best way to make the perk limited while still providing counter to tunneling a single guy.