Defnotmeghead
Defnotmeghead
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084769#Comment_4084769
gen regreation has been nerfed into the ground and even if you bring 4 gen regression perks survivors can still escape in under 4 minutes
That is, because you are bad, no offense.
People in high MMR with insane killrates, are people who at most bring 2 gen regression perks, and tbh, they dont even need it. They just rather have a 3k with 2 gens remaining than a 3k with 1 gen remaining.
In fact, bringing more than 2 actually hurts you, because your only source of pressure is genregression. Survivors are gonna heal normally, they only have to consider your ability and not worry about bamboozle, noed, devour hope or anything.
2 regression perks are stronger than 4. The only killers who could afford more than 2 because their ability generates a ton of pressure, are killers who tend to want only 1 gen regression perk and sometimes even 0. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4092558#Comment_4092558
Yes, I'm more likely to die for friends. I'm also often screwing up becuase I'm laughing or talking. Soloq is all business. I don't know about the average though. As far as I know, the killer is determined by the person with the highest MMR. So if three people are low and one is high those three players will be in over their heads. SWF probably makes for some very wonky matchmaking.
I'm not saying unpredictability is good or bad. It's just a thing.
Oh, the killer is as much determined by the person with the highest MMR as the person with the lowest MMR. As far as I can recall (which, I am not fact checking, this is pure memory, not a source), DBD does a rough calculation based on the lobby average and tries to match it as close as possible. Which, lets say you as a killer have 2600 MMR and your opponents have 1500, 3000, 2250 and 3250. Then the survivor average is 2500, with 2 survivors that are going to be a slight problem, 1 survivor that is an obvious weak link and the other survivor being quite likely to lose more mindgames against you than they would win. As long as you can decide which survivor you shouldnt be chasing, the game should be easy to tie and require a bit of effort to turn into a win.
There is a bit more to it, like, how long people have been q'd up, how long they havent been playing, how well their recent matches have been going etc etc etc. -
@cogsturning said:
I don't find SWF easier per se, I actually end up with a higher ER in solo. What solo is that SWF isn't is unpredictable. You get to know how people play and what sort of perks they'll bring. Instead of four wild cards you only have one in the killer.
Eh, while its true you leave with a higher ER when solo, I'd argue the average ER per match is lower while playing solo. Because you're more likely to be willing to sacrifice yourself for 3 of your friends, but not for 3 strangers.
As for unpredictability, that is what IMO makes soloq overall more fun. I have the most fun with SWF if we dont tell each other our (full) loadouts. Sometimes I do still say I bring X because if I dont they will unknowingly sandbag me (like if I bring Deliverance, I HAVE to say it, otherwise my friend will race me for any unhook). -
@DBoy70 said:
I think he could get a rework, and I want to see Hag and trapper get their rework too, back in the day I really loved playing with or against them but nowadays I see only Jason
Ofcourse you only see Jason, dude's been out for only 1 week. Any decent killer being released will be the vast majority you see for at least 4 weeks, especially with anniversary killers.
As for what Wraith needs, his biggest weakness that made him a C tier killer back in the day, was Lightburn. That's removed. He is a solid B tier killer with A tier potential depending on skill, maps and perks.
The only thing I would say Wraith needs, is the ability to override a survivor vault while he is cloaked. Right now, a survivor can vault a pallet or window effectively infinitely while he is cloaked with Wraith being forced to either mindgame the survivor (which can take a LOT of time) or fully uncloak (which, without cloak/uncloak addons isnt a consistently viable strategy).
So, either give Wraith, while cloaked, the ability to override window vaults OR the ability to break pallets before a survivor can vault it again. That's legit all he needs these days. -
@Wezqu said:
Well that is odd question as to get 40k you need get all emblems to Iridescent.
Evader is not effected by any of the perks as its just counting the time you are chased. Still as you get +50 points for every pallet stun you could run Any Means Necessary so you can get more oportunities to stun the killer
Benevolent is the unhooking, healing and save survivor from killer grasp actions so any perk that makes those faster/easier. Still you can also use Saboteur as you can get points of sabotaging hook if the survivor wiggles off the killer 10 meters of it.
Unbroken you just need to not get downed. So any perk that can help you prevent that most likely
Lightbringer is in the end the only category where you can effect with perks as you can get points of cleansing totems, fixing generators, if someone else cleanses totem while you are chased and getting chased by the killer when others are fixing gens. So any perk that can help you to achieve those.
So to looking that Lightbringer seems to be the only one that you can effect that much and Benevolent in some degree too.
You dont need all emblems to be iridescent to get 40k.
As an example:
Cleansing 5 totems, hitting a great wiggle skillcheck at least 6 times when you get carried (which is 3 seconds of wiggling, gets you 900 points per carry, which is 2700 points total) gets you 10k bloodpoints in Survival.
You get iridescent if you escape without ever being downed(otherwise its gold or lower).
As for the rest of your comment, you should read up on the scoring table that's on the wiki, because respectfully, you're not informed enough about the topic and/or your info is severely outdated. -
So, things that dont really require any perks, so you can asses what perks you DO want to bring:
Objective:
750 points per chest (if you have a friend with chest perks, you can 99% the chest for 749 points). 3 chests in the game is 2250 points
300 points per standard great skill check on gens
50 points per good skill check on gens
2500 for escaping through hatch
2000 points for opening hatch with a key (50% of your points can be achieved with just opening the hatch with a key)
20 points per generator %, netting you 2000 points for doing a gen solo with no interruptions (there is no cap per gen, meaning gen regression actually helps you gain more points)
20 points per gate % (same as gens)
So, do a total of 2 gens while aiming to hit at least 3 great skill checks per gen, then either open both gates or open chests in the hopes you find a key if you dont want to bring your own. If you could, you dont want to bring any perks to assist with Objectives.
Survival:
1500 for cleansing any hex or dull totem (7500 for all 5 totems btw).
100 for mending
50 for each good wiggle skillcheck
150 for each great wiggle skillcheck
The same points apply for self-healing, assuming you brought a medkit.
750 points for each self-heal.
1500 for a self-unhook (assuming you get camped or someone brought a luck offering)
1250 for wiggling free (effectively impossible without perks, but still good to note down)
1000 points if the obsession dies, even if that's you.
2000 points if you're escaping as the obsession
1500 points if you open any escape gate as the last person standing (once hatch spawns in, you're the last person standing, so it counts if the other teammates already escaped)
250 points if the killer closes hatch
7000 for escaping
100-1000 points related to various killer powers.
The obvious one is to simply be the obsession, escape the killers grasp once and then escape. This is fully doable with DS as you escape the grasp AND turn into the obsession. But you can also achieve the same by cleansing 2 totems and then escaping.
If you want to gain 10k while dying, you need to do all 5 totems, use DS and make sure you get tunnelled before someone else can use DS and get 750 points from wiggling skillchecks (you get carried 3 times, which means you only need 3 great skillchecks per wiggle, is easily doable)
If using escape points as your main contributor, just do 2 totems. If you intend to die, bring DS.
Altruism:
7.5 per healing % without a medkit, before gens are done, 750 per solo heal
7.0 per healing % without a medkit, after gens are done (but actually 8.75 as you get 25% more, 875 per solo heal)
1000 per unhook before gens are done
1500 per unhook after gens are done
2000 per unhook after EGC started
1250 for every survivor saved from the killer's grasp
10 per healing % without a medkit, before gens are done, 1000 total
8 per healing % without a medkit, after gens are done (but actually 10 as you get 25% more, so it stays the same, honestly the weirdest on the list, same 1000 total)
500 per safe cage rescue (rescues are not on this list, only applies to 2v8 and Pyramid Head)
1250 per safe unhook
100 everytime you mend someone else
So, optimally, you want to do an unhook and heal the survivor up 3x in the game and be part of healing as much as possible as that would cover at least 3000 per unhook.
There also used to be something about gaining 25% extra BP on altruism if you were in the basement, but I cannot find any source confirming that still exists in the game.
To optimize the chances of unhooking someone else, you would want Shoulder The Burden, which grants another 1500 points to you. Meaning you can get 4500 points within the first 3 minutes of the game.
Boldness:
5 bp per second spend in the basement while healthy, gets claimed when you either get injured or leave the basement. Has a 4 second start-up.
3 bp per second while running near the killer (but not in chase)
50 bp per second while in chase
375 per escaped chase, is doubled for the first chase
500 per sabotaged hook
400 per killer blind, 500 if it's mid chase
500 per killer stun with a perk or pallet
100 per window vault in chase
Considering average chasetime is around 60 seconds, that means on average you should earn about 9k bp in chase alone.
Blessing totems brings you 1500 per interaction, which is something to consider
So, how to optimize this for 40k per match REGARDLESS if you escape or not, without throwing the match:
1. Bring Saboteur, sabo a hook whenever you can, do not go out of your way to do so unless the killer happens to be nearby carryng a survivor.
2. Bring Shoulder the Burden, that reduces your hook count, but it buys more time if the killer has to chase your teammate once more AND grants you 1 more oppertunity to unhook.
3. Bring Left Behind and a key, if you're the last survivor standing. If gates are open and teammates have escaped: lead the killer close to the hatch but pretend to not hear it and run as far away as possible while the killer closes the hatch.
4. Bring For The People, so you can guarantee being the obsession at your moment of escape.
Cleanse at least 2 totems, fix 2 gens worth of progress(it doesnt matter if the killer regresses it), heal at least 2 people and unhook 2 of them safely, escape through hatch whenever the oppertunity is available. If possible, open an exit gate if you're the last survivor, then still aim to get hatch. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084769#Comment_4084769
If nerfing these two perks drastically altered the outcome of games overall then there's a big issue with survivors crutching on perks. I no longer use Exhaustion perks. The extra 5s BT was enough for me to take off Lithe. I get above average results without it. Anyone would If they learn to live without them.
But I'd love to see all regression and all Exhaustion nerfed. I can't stand either of them.
I never said drastically, but it does reduce average chasetime. Since gens and genregression are currently mainly being defended due to chases taking too long, then it logically concludes that reducing average chasetime should affect genregression.
Like, we've seen this in the cooldown buff 3 years ago, killers gained a flat 10% basekit reduction to all chase related cooldowns. Hits, misses, vaults, breaks(including gens). Gen regression in general got nerfed in the same year because they got too effective. And that 10% was a minor change in numbers. If nerfing SB and Lithe pulls the average chasetime down by 10%, that for example would go from 40 seconds to 36 seconds, which is not a huge difference, but on the long run, having gen regression the same would mean survivors are in chases more often, which increases the effect of genregression perks significantly.
If a match takes 10 minutes on average, that means by the time your 5th chase ended, on average, you will arrive to a gen in progress 20 seconds earlier. Meaning if they are at 70+ seconds progress at the time, they would have been able to finish the gen before the nerf on average. Meaning average game durations will end up being longer because gens end up unfinished for longer.
If keep slowdown the same, the impact will snowball hard. -
@NeverSolus said:
Just… Just break line of sight? Bloodlust is absurdly weak due to a single LOS break making the buff disappear. In addition to that it has a rev up time, and it is buggy in its activation condition to begin with. I regularly don't see bloodlust even tick on during a loop due to buggy map meshing creating invisible LOS breakers.
But to engage with your problems directly :1. it rewards killers who make (relatively) bad decisions with up to 15% haste (like, imagine giving survivors who miss skill checks a 10% repair boost for each time they've missed a skillcheck the past 30 seconds)
This is apples to oranges. Bloodlust is there to incentivize the killer to take a chase and hold it. But in its current state it hardly does that. That isn't comparable to giving survivors a gen repair boost for missing skill checks. Bloodlust is there to help close distance in a chase, which by definition starts with distance. If anything it 'rewards' the killer for interacting with a survivor in a chase.
2. it doesnt reset when killers miss an attack (so, they get rewarded even more)
I don't follow: Why would missing an attack and not being punished by losing bloodlust be a reward? Hitting you has nothing to do with bloodlust, why is the comparison to this being drawn? How does X have to do with Y? Just break line of sight, which you're going to naturally try to do anyway in a chase. By your logic, survivors are rewarded to failure to hide with the LOS break making bloodlust drop.3. its something that can activate when tunnelling
Everything in the base kit can activate when tunnelling. Hooking can activate while tunneling. Bloodlust can activate while tunneling. M1 and M2 abilities can activate while tunnelling. Again, X does not have to do with Y, why are you drawing this connection?
Honestly the way this reads sounds more as though you have an issue with killers tunnelling, which is a valid opinion but nuking core mechanics is (imo) not the way to try addressing that.Breaking line of sight doesnt always work as you'd expect, because both you and the killer have to have it occuring, then that has to happen for ~8 seconds(which, once again means both sides dont have line of sight in that entire duration, with 50 ping and potential desync, that can be up to 10 seconds). So that's just a lie.
1(&3). If killers were meant to not be outplayed in chase, then why not simply add the haste at the start of a chase? Why add it at a moment in time when you SHOULD be able to hit a survivor? Why remove it on pallet break and pallet stun? Why not grant it after breaking a pallet or having been stunned? That would make sense for the killer to be able to hold a chase, because in those scenario's the chase gets interrupted. The fact that you cannot use your m2 to gain bloodlust means you have hold W, the fact that it doesnt reset on a missed hit means it rewards failure rather than succes. The whole point of a survivor gaining too much distance is initiative for the killer to break the chase and go for someone else unless there is no other choice. You know what other situation is meant to give a survivor a large distance so that the killer is supposed to go for someone else unless there is no other choice? Basekit BT. Bloodlust defeats the purpose of basekit BT. It's also by far the main reason I see bloodlust being used. I very rarely get bloodlust in a regular chase, but if I were to need to tunnel, forcing bloodlust often ends up being the fastest way to do so. If a pallet is in the way, you shouldnt be able to ring-around-the-rosy to still get a hit. Breaking the pallet should be a priority unless you feel like you could get a hit through your M2.
2. Because breaking a pallet resets it. Getting stunned resets it.
And no, the logic that survivors get rewarded for failing to lose LoS doesnt work for 3 reasons:
1. chase is about NOT getting hit. Not about not being seen.
2. maps like Ormond have a lot of loops where you cant lose LoS anywhere for 8 consecutive seconds.
3. Bloodlust was implemented to counter infinites, it wasnt an original mechanic. Since infinites effectively no longer exist (except that 1 route on Lery's that I am shocked still exists, they should really add breakable walls to that map, but only 5 survivors use it regularly, and those survivors dont use perks), Bloodlust only punishes survivors for gaining distance.
If an m2 resets it, why wouldnt a missed m1 reset it? The whole reason an M2 resets it, is because you're actively trying to damage the survivor. Using an m1 is used for the exact same reason? Which also contradicts your earlier statement, why would a killer, who has access to an ability that either deals damage or reduces distance, need bloodlust to reduce distance? I can ofcourse name 3 specific killers where that's not entirely true, but all those 3 killers are also in desperate need of tweaks and buffs.
Bloodlust is even more outdated than slugging and it's artificially raising killrates, and how can killers recieve the buff they deserve, when they can currently rely on Bloodlust?
As for tunnelling, well, one of the 3 big mechanical reasons tunnelling early game is a problem, is bloodlust. Tunnelling on its own is fine. But remove bloodlust and I genuinely think that it would only affect the killrates of people who tunnel early game. -
@Feather said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084801#Comment_4084801
U know what is a fact? Survivours being boosted by SB. Lithe at least they need to find a window.
Normally gen regression isnt an issue. It starts being an issue when used on high tier killers, which can activate gen regression perks way faster than normal killer due to chase power or mobility.
BUT EVEN WITH THAT. Survivours can win without perks if played right.
Sprint Burst isnt giving you chase time, it delays time before you start chase, which you can do if you know how to play, and thats why m1 killers struggle so much, because they cant create pressure if they cant injure you. And then after you get injuted, you gonna pop that medkit you brought and remove that. And let me say this again and again and again. SB does not counter high tier killers, which are the problem when they are using gen regression on top of that.
And you tell me im biased for saying that
And SB has the downside that it gets used whenever you arent exhausted and start running. If you use it whenever it can activate, it ends up shooting you in the foot. Getting exhaustion to 99% recovery is a BIG part of using SB effectively, which contradicts with survivors having to do objectives. Lithe needs a vault, they can refuse to vault something to keep it for a better window which can end a chase right then and there, even if it meant taking a hit earlier. 99% on Sprintburst will definitely extend the chase by up to an additional 30 seconds if using perfect pathing.
I'd also argue gen regression IS an issue, because tunnelling and slugging exist and gen regression perks dont change. You can tunnel 1 survivor out from the start of the game, and still be able to activate Pain Res 3 more times followed by Grim Embrace activating for 40 seconds, despite the impact of each trigger being significantly stronger than before. And all you need to pull that off relatively consistency, is not face a 4 man SWF. 50% of players play soloq. So it's quite a consistent strategy, especially on mobility killers, which are 70% of the killers you face.
And survivors can win without perks, if they are extremely in-sync and play as if they happen to have access to constant information to a point they have perfect comms, the killer makes quite a few mistakes and doesnt really get any value from perks or addons.
Killers win without perks a lot more consistently. Plenty of games where killers brought 4 hexes that all got cleansed within the first minute and they still won.
So yeah, you're biased in demanding a nerf or rework in both those perks. The total amount of time they save on good survivors facing a good killer tends to be lesss than the amount of time a good killer saves by only running Lethal Pursuer. And Lethal Pursuer on its own isnt really good, most killers use it to support other aura perks and addons.
Can they be boring? Yeah, sure. I can get behind that. But that's not a reason to nerf or rework something. As to play the "whataboutism" card, slugging is much, much more boring and is a basekit mechanic that everyone can use. Been in the game for 10 years, has not gained any basekit counterplay. SB and Lithe have both been nerfed (shared exhaustion mainly), and have a LOT of counter perks. Mindbreaker being one of the strongest ones as it requires walking before survivors can sprint away. -
@zonkednb said:
I mentioned this in another thread. The biggest potential counter is a bit of bravery. Check your surroundings, the resources and ways out you can go. If you're in a position where you have a route to get a decent loop, be the one who gets on gens while he OEs. Teammates in less safe positions can hold off until he emerges.
Either he jumps you and you bolt for the resource he isn't at/towards the safe loop you saw, or he jumps someone else and you've just had a bunch of free time on the gen. Whenever he has committed a chase it's 100% safety to crack on as with any other killer. The survivors essentially get to choose who he finds first.
I'm not claiming this is direct counterplay that guarantees a win, and I'm going to spend some time in the next few days trying this mentality out further to see just how much success I see.There are 2 big problems imo:
1. its bugged, sometimes you scream while you're crouching, sometimes you run/walk and dont leave any prints
2. the 1v1
His ability is arguably worse than Singu, because Singu's 1v1 impossibility is map dependend. The maps that work best against Singu, are also maps Jason thrives on because there is ALWAYS a potential pallet spawn right next to the gate.
I feel like Jason should have a limited time in that state depending on how many survivors there are.
Like, Doctor is THE example of a 1v1 that can be difficult due to info, yet Jason gets more. Which during the standard gameplay is absolutely fine, could be improved even. But once everyone is dead and the game is designed for the exit gate to be a possibility, that possibility should maintain for all killers.
As for killer mains who disagree, imagine that all gens are gone and the exit gates opened, but specifically Steve got a basekit mechanic that basically makes it impossible to pick him up once the exit gates have opened, effectively guaranteeing he gets out whenever he brings something like Tenacity. Would you even care to chase him at that point? Would you want to face a team of Steve's consistently?
It's important that the 1v1 remains possible, because if its not, i'm just gonna crouch waddle to a location I know the killer wont look for untill the timer runs out. -
@Feather said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084769#Comment_4084769
SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED CHASE TIMES? START RUNNING BEFORE KILLER KISSES YOU ON THE FOREHEAD MATE. AND YOU WONT NEED SPRINT BURST
Imagine that:
> Dont use exhaustion perks.
>Learn how to play without them.
>Then put them on.
>Profit
Lithe is different, i would rather play against full team of lithes instead of full team of SB.Lithe is actually stronger against most mobility killers.
Also, I rarely run sprintburst. But the point is, perks like Lithe and Sprintburst have on average increased chase duration, that's a fact. A lot of gen regression perks have been introduced because chase duration has been increased. Reducing chase duration should therefor mean nerfed regression perks.
If you cant agree on that logic, I'd say your biased and the perks are not a problem -
So, if Sprintburst and Lithe need a nerf, then to compensate for the SIGNIFICANTLY reduced chase times:
Nerf ALL gen regression perks. -
@Aphy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082062#Comment_4082062
Again I am not talking about running before you can be hit by killer, I am talking about miles ahead that make reading scratch marks even impossible because they've already faded that they are useless. 100% avoiding killer the entire match. As Killer I refuse to waste my time with people that play that way. That is zero skill. I'm not a fool that is going to take that bait and waste my time and allow gens to be rushed by the other 3. I'm going to do gen checks and if every single player is pre running and avoiding me at all costs, not even staying with my terror radius for chases or any other interactions to happen then game is over. They can find another match. That's minimal engagement, minimal bp for all so no, not happening.
All this instant pallet breaking, faster pallet breaking, sliding over or under pallet when its dropped all makes pallets pretty useless and only encourages pre runners even more. Why not just get rid of pallets all together even for Doc at this point. Everyone complaining about perks is leading up to all this pre running, 2 minute matches and its killing the entire game.
Maps are extremely smaller then they were before. Pruned and thinned out. Light up like an operating room. Some maps only have 1 small shack in the middle of just about nothing. And you want more killers with the ability to just about insta break pallets. Might as well just have one empty room and play dodge ball with killer. I don't agree with all the perks on either side of the fog. It's gotten way out of hand but what you are asking for is only going to cause more to pre run for miles away and avoid all engagement with killers including Doc.So, pallets have ALWAYS been the biggest weakness of Doc. Blight could arguably do without breaking pallets and be fine, same is true for Nemesis. Pyramid Head is a bit different, but he has that ability locked behind an addon(which, I think should be the general approach to everyone, including Billy).
The whole reason pallet density became such a problem was due to powers breaking pallets. But those are core to DBD, you have Billy who literally was released being able to break pallets. Wraith had faster breaking speeds while cloaked (later turned into an addon). Nurse ignored pallets. Huntress benefit from pallets. Its a big reason why Billy, Huntress and Nurse have remained such strong killers overtime despite having received fairly few changes.
Doc getting a basekit way to deal with pallets would not even be close to way out of hand. IMO, that should have been introduced the moment they reworked him. Like, Trapper might be useless if someone follows him all game and disables all his traps. But at the very least he could prepare a trap at a pallet and catch someone relatively quickly. Doc is forced to not do anything untill a survivor drops a pallet, or shock and do nothing.
Like, not even Dissolution is a good perk on Doc, on paper it should be amazing, but its awful on Doc. Because you dont want to be vaulting that pallet anyway, you just want to continue to the next one.
Giving Doc the ability to break pallets with his M2 under specific conditions doesnt even come close to killers like Blight or Nemesis.
And pre-running is not a result because of this, like I said, this has been in the game since release. Survivors have somewhat pre-ran ages ago. The reason these days? Nowhere to Hide. Genuinely the worst aura perk DBD could have given to killers.
If Nowhere to Hide would be deleted from the game, pre-running would stop and people would try and hide closer to gens again. -
@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4081858#Comment_4081858
People like to pretend this isn't true, but the proof is in the pudding for me.
Anything that skews towards Killers always gets mass downvoted around here, even if its the most lukewarm take ever.
Honestly, depends on the day and the time, I've seen anything skewed towards survivor get burned at the stake and everything killer related get praised. I've seen the opposite happen too.
I've seen people praise self-pickups being basekit near unfinished gens (which, IMO should happen, makes early game slugging practically impossible, makes slugging in the 2v1 impractical but slugging in a 1 gen scenario still viable but not guaranteed), I've seen people oppose it heavily as they consider any form of basekit self-pickup too strong.
The same is true for basekit Kindred, Corrupt Intervention, Flip-Flop, Fire-Up, Tenacity(the self-recovery while crawling, and perhaps increasing crawling speed by 15%), Soul Guard (just a 5 seconds endurance to counter slug-camping), Whispers(it would be so good to have this basekit, it's such a cool mechanic that no one uses today because it's not worth the perk slot), Monstrous Shrine.
I could go on, there are a lot of things that would 100% improve the game long-term that both get praise and get burned at the stake, depending on when you post it. -
@Aphy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/466009/figuring-out-why-doc-is-weak
4. Pre dropping pallets and Pre running shouldn't ever be done. Pallets are for chases and Loopers. Why is anyone pre running? I'm not talking about omg killer is about to hit me I need to run I'm mean actual pre runners running from miles away. There's no looping, pallet dropping, flash lights, flash grenade's etc involved in pre running. It's literally nothing at all in the game. Involves zero skill or activity. It's a complete waste of time.
They are extremely powerful tactics if your main goal is a 4 man escape. You pre-run, because you gain distance without the killer seeing where you go, so the killer has to guess more and more closely follow your trail. Which means if you are 10 meters away, the killer will take up to 15 seconds trying to catch up with you by just following your tracks.
If the killer is closer, they can more easily cut you off and even tho you initially had 10 meters, the shortest path to your future location isnt following your tracks directly.
As for pre-dropping pallets, most killers can punish that now by either having mobility, a pallet breaking power or both. Killers that have neither will often be forced to break the pallet ASAP or waste time. If the whole team does it while coordinated (not even on comms, just other survivors doing gens while not in chase), then you are going to have a difficult time.
It doesnt involve 0 skill, because timing it perfectly to maximize time gain is rough, you still have to mindgame the killer while you are out of sight and avoid dropping as many pallets as possible, someone who pre-drops every single pallet they encounter in game isnt going to win them games.
This is more effective against killers like Doctor, Trapper, Pig and Oni, who dont really have anything in their kit to counter it. This thread is mainly about Doc because Doc used to be a killer in the middle of the roster, but has dropped significantly despite not having been nerfed at all.
Basically, point 4 has always been Doctor's biggest weakness by far, but recently it's been amplified due to map and tile rebalances. Making maps overall fairer, but Doc less usefull. -
Didnt see the original comment, but here's why I think Throttle isnt too big of a deal:
1. It resets and blocks the pallet. That means you cant break it, but survivors cant use it either.
2. The pallet originally blocked your path when they vaulted it, now it doesnt.
On paper, really strong perk
In practice, I doubt this perk will see a lot of usage
That 15% haste is literally them matching your movementspeed for 3 seconds, because you no longer need to break the pallet, which would have cost you more distance:
Just in terms of a straight line and you having to break the pallet vs throttle being used:
1. They vault the pallet with 5 meters distance, you break it ASAP uppon arrival (2.3 seconds, but to sell the point, I've made it last 3 seconds) while standing still, survivors move at 100% after vaulting in a straight line → Takes you 29 seconds after the chase originally started to hit them.
2. They vault the pallet with 5 meters distance, you dont have to break it as it will reset, they gain 15% haste for 3 seconds and then the regular 100% → Takes you 9 seconds to hit them
To provide a visual per second:
They can stack it with Lithe, sure, but why would you use Lithe with Throttle when you can just use Lithe. To re-use the pallet later?
Like, survivors cannot control the activation. When they fast-vault, the pallet resets and get's blocked. That's it. By the time a survivor is forced to fast-vault a pallet, they tend to be within hitting range of the killer.
So you only want to use this in 3 scenario's
1. You're not in chase and quickly reset a nearby pallet for later use (handy against killers like Houndmaster and Twins)
2. You have a significant distance on the killer and want to deter the killer from chasing you (in which case, minimal wasted time to the killer)
3. You are in a relatively dense area and that 3 seconds allows you to rotate, because you need the pallet in the area for later (mainly indoor maps like Lery's, The Game and Midwich, I dont see that happening on Coldwind).
It can be really powerful, yes, especially against weaker killers that have been in desperate need of a buff since 2021 (in case of any devs watching this, we really want Pig's dash to be able to break pallets, and for Trapper to have bloody coil basekit(and also maybe honing stone basekit in 2v8)). But overall, it really isnt as strong as it appears to be.
Based on very little practice with it myself, I'd say this will get used in maybe 5% of games, which is still significantly higher than average, but it's benefits are quite niche.
Lithe is better without resetting the pallet, WoO is better. The 15% haste is terrible in combination with any other forms of haste. It's only benefit is that it doesnt cost you exhaustion. You heavily rely on pallets not being broken as any pallet you drop in chase is not really a pallet you want to be vaulting unless the killer mindgamed you hard. -
@Nightram said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4078163#Comment_4078163
There are survivors who bait lightborn by bringing 4 flashlights in the match and changing last second.
But if there shouldn't be any information for the killer side. Why do the killer lurk from a distance looking at the survivors by the bonefire. It is supposed to give killers an advantige anyway.
It is okay we can agree to disagree. The Dev or community manager may never see this post or our comments anyway. But thanks for your opinions, even if you didn't agree.
Have a nice next game whatever you play 😁
If you fall for a lightborn bait, that's completely on you. You know how that would be preventable? By removing items from the lobby.
If killers are supposed to give an advantage by lurking, then survivors should be able to hear their sounds if they listen closely enough, right? Same logic. Yet survivors dont, so they dont change their loadout to face a specific killer. Its a little bit odd that you can change your build to face a specific survivor loadout, isnt it? -
@Mikeadatrix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4078295#Comment_4078295
I'm not following. How is this any different than Plague fountains, Sadako's tapes, Amanda's Boxes, Vecna's chests, Freddy's Clocks, etc etc etc etc?
This would be a risk/reward play that lets Survivors choose whether or not they want to let Afton get more powerful via stealth in favor of forgoing gens for 10ish seconds. People already don't cleanse Hex: Plaything or cleanse against Plague, this is such a nonissue killer buff that would not pull Survs from gens long enough to make a meaningful dent in progression. Plus Afton is loud as hell with those robotic footsteps lmao
Because except for Amanda's boxes, you do not have to interact with any of those. You dont interact with Plague fountains unless you're about to die. You dont really have to interact with Sadako's tapes other than maybe turning TV's off unless she's trying to go for a mori without any hooks (in which case, she HAS to interact with gens)
And even with Amanda's boxes, you dont have to do any of them untill you finish a single gen, at which point you can 99 all gens, at which point Pig is forced to interact with gens. Sure, you still HAVE to do them even if you finish 5 gens over the course of 10 seconds. And good teams will be able to finish 3 gens before Pig gets 1 mask, at which point, they can probably 99 the 4th and start pushing the 5th together, especially if Pig starts to tunnel there. And while that is a stretch to ask on average, that is how people play in high MMR.
The more you have to interact with a killer's power, the weaker that killer should be overall, or the power interaction needs to effectively disable the killer's power. Its probably the biggest reason I dislike the clock mechanic from The First, because you have to interact, but interacting only matters if you can dodge the power, which you cannot as it's quite ping dependend.
Nurse already has a gameplay issue where she hits you before she appears due to ping, but at the very least I can argue there that in 99% of the cases, she would have hit you anyway and to your team it doesnt really do too much. Where with The First, at least 40% of the time, I can tell you that a survivor should have dodged the attack based on what was on their screen, yet it was registered as a hit and now the entire team is vulnerable because of a ping desync. And thus the ping desync actually changes the outcome of the game.
Which is exactly why if you HAVE to interact with a killer's power(aka, secondary objective), that interaction should either require the killer interacting with gens, disable the killer's power (aka, make them an m1 killer temporarily, Trapper is an extreme version, especially as he needs a few mechanical changes), or the killer needs to be weak overall. -
@Mikeadatrix said:
God, I wish they made the doors a mandatory part of countering him. It's been done to death but the gradually decreasing TR if he isn't monitored is such a good concept and true to FNAF3.
I mean, that wouldnt work in the modern meta due to heavy gen regression.
If you demand survivors to interact with killer powers, then you need to demand killers to interact with gens to regress them too -
@hermitkermit said:
Yeah, looking at the value doors are competing with which is gen value, they just aren’t equal. It’s not really worth it to hop off a Gen run to a door, get on a camera and cycle through until you find him just for a short reveal for someone else vs saving that time and putting it to work on a gen. I’m all for making the doors having more of an important role but there’s just not enough value to do it over a gen.
So, if we're not talking about SWF, the aura reveal can, in-total, buy more time. Assuming its done on tiles with high walls. It gives you the ability to perfectly counterplay, which can buy 10 seconds in chase, which means 20 charges for teammates before anyone gets forced off any gens. while you maybe sacrificed 5-7 charges to pull it off. Giving you a nett total of 20-30 charges depending on how far away that door was from your nearest gen
So it definitely can have value, its just that on average, revealing the killer's aura doesnt mean the survivor being chased knows what to do with that info -
@Andrix_ said:
Yeah, he desperately needs buffs, he's way too slow for 2v8. The fact that one single survivor is enough to disable his power is too much honestly.
Could be somewhat fine in 1v4, but definitely not in 2v8.
I'm kind of against to giving him bloody coil tho, because it would empower already strong killers (see nurse or oni). I think iridescent stone + honing stone could be enough…I mean, if you only implement honing stone, you still have the problem of 1 single survivor being able to disable his power. Bloody Coil fixes that, as they are forced to injure themselves. It wont make Oni or Nurse too strong, unless survivors are actively disarming traps (which means Trapper has to go round and reset again, effectively making it a 1v8 for as long as he is focussed on traps)
On RPD it becomes a problem, but TBH, that could be fixable by allowing survivors to "destroy" traps like the OG dbd days and have those traps respawn elsewhere after being "destroyed". Which is a mechanic I would love in 1v4 too so they can buff traps in general (like, being able to spawn with all traps from the start, it would make basement super strong, but having the traps spawn elsewhere after destruction makes it a temporary resource instead) -
@terumisan said:
if apocalypic ingenuity didn't have such strict conditions you'd have 4 survivors just rebuilding god pallets
If fragile pallets didnt work like party pallets and instead remained for 0.5 seconds longer to not be a free hit, it would genuinely be a good perk despite it's conditions.
The fact that missing a stun (which is very ping dependend) turns the pallet into a free hit, despite already having strict requirements, makes it such a bad perk. I mean, 2 chest interactions(minimal 16 seconds), a 4 second rebuilding interaction to turn into a 50/50 giving you a 2 second stun and at most 6 seconds of distance to cover assuming its not a killer with any form of gap closing and there being a tile nearby too? That's a terrible trade-off.
Like, best case scenario, you trade 20 seconds for 8 seconds, worst case scenario, you trade 20 seconds for a negative healthstate. It's only niche situation is where you would have gotten hit anyway and then have that pallet be there as it can only be a win. But in reality, you wouldnt ever go to that general area unless you've either got there by chance, or you were actively trying to get there.
If the pallet lingered for 0.3-0.5 seconds after having been dropped, it would at least reduce the negative effect from a free healthstate, to barely getting enough distance to possibly pull something off because you gained 1 second of distance. -
I think I am one of 3 survivors making sure Deception isnt in the bottom 20, it used to be bottom 5 despite genuinely being a good perk to use.
-
Honestly, the battery consumption did infuriate a bit, because just using the doors once properly meant 22% battery consumption assuming your camera was instantly on the door you wanted. 29% if you needed to switch.
This makes it 18% at the least and 24% if you need to switch. Giving you 4-5 door movements instead of 3-4 per battery.
It also ups the camera usage from 14 switches to 17, which means overall its easier to reveal Springtrap using the cams. Which is genuinely great to do when he chases someone.
So while this wont make people more likely to use camms overall, it makes it much better for those who do. -
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072087#Comment_4072087
Ghoul isnt theoreticaly weaker against good survivors but he is actualy weaker against good survivors b ecause they know how to loop and being injured doesnt bothers them like the bottom weaker 50% of other survivors, nurse has counter to but good nurse against good survivors has higher chance to win and less trouble compare to ghoul in this state in which ghoul now is that his vault got nerfed.
Soloq is worse only because of lack of shared information like call outs on killers location,traps or being able to create strategies like going for save in endgame where they dont act like each survivor by himself and hope they will have good teamwork but they tell each other this is what makes swf so good compare to soloq nothing else because even in soloq you can have very good players but skill isnt something swf has and soloq hasnt its thing that isnt dependent and each individual has different skill so only thing swf has better is teamwork and info.
Ghou has easier first hit but than he has to play bit normaly as m1 untill his dashes charge and than depends where you run him because you talk about bad loops and he gets you do you know how many killers can do than and even better than ghoul like clown will get you on loops way better than ghoul or slinger that can hit his shots so this isnt ghouls speciality to be good on weaker loops. Nurse is different story she can get hit slower maybe depending on map and her skill in reading survivors whereabout but than her chase is way more oppressive compare to ghouls thats like comparing being chased by guy with chainsaw compare to being chased by guy with handgun.
Ghoul can slide into you but he cant do it with sharp turns so if you do sharp turn or run around something round his slide speed wont allow him to turn than much and even if he cancels if he wasnt in you all the time which means you ran straight or very easily for him to do it he ahs still some time delay where you get few meters like 5+ and if theres some pallet you can still get out from that danger.
Fun isnt something balance wise its just your subjective feeling because there exist people that have opposite fun when facing the ghoul compare to you so this issue is irrelavent and killers like trickster,clown are hated too or skullmerchant but that isnt something killer shoul be balanced around because of how subjective it is.
Soloq lacks info and will untill they get compleate wallhacks on majority of things or some talk to other option thats it. Many killers just like this every killer is better against soloq compare to swf some more some less like swf totaly counters by its existence if they have coms trap killers and stealth killers but soloq doesnt.
Idk how will devs balance ghoul if they nuke him as they usualy do or take away some parts of his power how they did till now Idk but I dont think ghoul is biggest problem this game has and shouldnt be main course on balance team menu, he was looked at more than any s-tier in last 3 years or some killers 5 years so I think there is time for others and more problematic things like cheaters that can freely play without any hinder or threat etc.
"Ghoul isnt theoreticaly weaker against good survivors but he is actualy weaker against good survivors b ecause they know how to loop"
I've literally explained why this doesnt matter. Once again, effective 0.5 second cooldown makes it not matter how good you can loop. The counterplay is literally finding a vault location where Ghoul cant easily leap around and staying there untill he either breaks the pallet, or untill the window gets blocked.
Like, yes, the second healthstate takes longer on average compared to Nurse getting any healthstate, but the first healthstate is pretty much guaranteed to be free and survivors stay injured longer.
You, as Ghoul, can go cross map faster than any other killer, then, as Ghoul, you can get a free injure pretty much upon arrival.
So, for a Nurse to go cross map, takes 4 blinks. Which is about 14 seconds, and she often does not have the accuracy to get a hit. Then it takes 6 seconds to get enough tokens for the first chase.
For a Ghoul to go cross map, takes 2-3 leaps, depending on obstacles, and can get there in about 5 seconds, then get a free injure in if any survivor is in the general area and after 7 seconds you can zone them again.
So, difference alone is that while the second hit may take longer even in the worst case scenario, the overall time it takes from hook to next down is lower with Ghoul, assuming no one tanks any hits.
THAT is why Ghoul is stronger against soloq. If you cant understand that, then I dont think you've ever played survivor ever. -
@Mr_K said:
Were the survivors spaced far apart or close together? If you down a survivor and another is right there, why not chase the other?
Because slugging shouldnt be stronger than hooking. You should always want to hook over slugging.
And its pretty much always the high mobility killers too. Personally, if it's a high mobility killer like Nurse, Blight, Spirit or Kaneki, I feel like "oldschool" basekit BT should apply upon picking someone else up. Endurance and 10% haste for the next 10 seconds. -
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073348#Comment_4073348
This ^
We don’t need another Skull Merchant or Freddy before his rework situation on our hands….again.While true, that doesnt mean you can ignore problematic things.
Krasue can easily receive tweaks before she gets close to that stage -
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072037#Comment_4072037
Forget freddy didnt you? He had highest kill rates for very long time even when he was super bad before his last rework.
Not in high MMR, in high MMR he wasnt even in the top 10 killers. But across all games, he had by far the highest kill rate.
Krasue has a very high killrate in high MMR, she isnt bad, just a little map dependend, but even on her worst map, she can use some tricks. -
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071463#Comment_4071463
Ghoul is nowhere near to nurse deffinitely not as spirit was to nurse in 2020 only time ghoul touched nurses heels and was breathing on her back was when he was released but in month he was changed, nerfed and was nowhere near nurse.
Ghoul has easier use of his power in base especialy in getting first hit but than he has just mobility now and that works worst around objects that are clustered near each other. Ghouls vault has trivial counterplay so its nowhere that strong as before its like trying to cut survivor from window with vecnas flight without addons for it.
Nurse is harder because she must be more direct especialy when her best addon that gives her second blink 30% more reach will get nerfed soon but she is way more powerfull in chase especialy now with vurrent version ghoul who just injures faster (depends lot on killers skill brcause good nurse can ignore almost anything in DBD) in general and has better mobility but he sucks way more in chase now, his vault is not very usefull now as before and that was his bread and butter in chase he is just legion with blight like mobility.
Current version of ghoul is weaker than dracula,billy,twins and s-tiers (there are only two blight and nurse) he is around singularity maybe weaker against better survivors because his antiloop is way weaker now.
He is theoretically weaker against the strongest survivors, yes. Survivors who are able to do callouts on where he is going. Survivors who can be called in to tank a hit while bodyblocking ghoul in a narrow path, like the doorway in killer shack, while 2 other survivors sit on seperate gens.
But in soloq? I can quite easily make a good Nurse take a while to get a down, yet, all a Ghoul needs is 1 tile without a decent window or pallet. Then doesnt even need info in BBQ because he has an addon for that. Ghoul needs teamwork to counter longterm. Nurse requires survivors having a good 1v1 sense against her.
Like, I can objectively outplay a Ghoul, and still get injured, because he gets 5 seconds to still injure with his ability. I can objectively outplay a Nurse, and she will need to wait to have 2 charges again to even get close enough for a second hit. And while a lot of Nurses rely on the 30% increased lunge after a blink nowadays, the main reason that damages is due to blink desync (where a Nurse hits you before she even appears on your screen, which is fixable by giving a 0.5 second delay in her attack after a blink, like we used to have). But Ghoul can launch towards you, cancel his ability mid-air to get the 2 second recovery started, slide against you for 0.8 seconds to effectively have 1.2 seconds passing before survivors are able to start running away from you, and then you have effectively 0.5 seconds to vault a window or pallet so he doesnt get a hit on you.
If Ghoul didnt get those 5 seconds, but 2 just like Wesker gets. Or if Ghoul didnt have 0.5 seconds reaction time, but start the attack recovery after the sliding has finished, I wouldnt be here complaining about Ghoul. Those are by far my biggest 2 issues with why Ghoul is too strong against soloq, and unfun to play against. The 3rd big issue is that mending doesnt instantly remove the mark, when it absolutely should. You decided to leave, the risk is losing your power within the next 8 seconds.
SWF is a different story, but considering close to 100% of games contain at least 1 soloq player, and easily 80% of games contain at least 2, the soloq argument has priority.
I wouldnt mind if Ghoul got the ability to down survivors with his m2, if it meant he didnt get 5 seconds to land a free hit in the first place. -
@Snitz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072010#Comment_4072010
The only way we could know for certain is if they dropped average chase times for killers at high MMR, but it just doesn't make any logical sense to me that a good Nurse would have a harder time than a good Ghoul at getting hits, when Nurse can literally guarantee getting hits, that's her greatest strength.
Once she's like 15 meters away, she can blink near you and guarantee the second hit, the only way she doesn't get it is if she misplays.
The best counterplay against a good nurse is just delay line of sight, run as far away as you can and go edge map so that she takes a long time getting back to objectives. It's a matter of how much time you can waste before she closes the distance and guarantees a hit.
There's never a guarantee the Ghoul is going to 100% hit you after the bite. That's what separates Nurse and Blight from Ghoul and all the killers in A tier, killers in the A tier like Billy will ocasionally end chases even quicker than Nurse would, but they can also starve and never get the down, with Nurse it's a matter of time.
I don't get why you think Ghoul gets massively countered by comms, yes you can call out where he's going and what he's doing but the best Ghoul players slingshot so fast across the map that comms end up making a very small difference.
Nurse gets countered pretty heavily by comms as well, since pre-running is so important against her to delay getting to that guaranteed hit distance, and planning where to go down so that you waste her as much time as possible.
Nurse can only guarantee hits when she has line of sight/aura. Ghoul can pretty much guarantee hits by being 115% right after a less than 2 second cooldown (can cancel mid-air, slide takes 0.8 seconds, roughly leaving 0.5 seconds for survivors to react).
So overall, Ghoul is more effective there, Ghoul can also traverse the map more quickly, and with survivors not having comms, its impossible to warn teammates where Ghoul is going, while also impossible for other teammates to communicate that Ghoul is about to chase them. Where with Nurse, if you hear blinking directly after a hook, you can be quite sure she either saw someone, or has aura reading.
Then you also have the fact that against a Nurse, you cant bypass or wait out basekit BT easily, because survivors will gain a lot of distance due to that 10%, while with Ghoul, that's not too big of a problem if there is no comms, because you know no one is coming to tank a hit anyway. And while the same is true for Nurse, its quite easy to break line of sight after an unhook.
And Ghoul gets massively countered by comms compared to Nurse, because survivors can get in the way, where Nurse can blink through them. Bodyblocking is EXTREMELY effective against Ghoul, and coordinated bodyblocking only really works on comms. Otherwise its literally trying to guess what your teammates are thinking, and hoping they get it correct.
Like, if were talking tournament vs live servers, the argument for balance shifts a lot. I dont think Grim Embrace is healthy on mobility killers in live servers, but I also dont think Grim Embrace is even viable in tournaments because its rare getting everyone hooked once. I dont think Pain Res or Turn Back The Clock are healthy gen regression perks, because they dont require you to interact with the generator at all. Its basically free regression(hooking a survivor is part of the natural gameplay loop, anything attached to hooking a survivor is effectively free, same reason why Flashbang and Blastmine are effectively free, which, IMO also have issues) and I feel like they either need pre-requisite interaction, or not explode the gen if a single survivor is working on them. In the same reasoning, Commodius needs a nerf. Commodius is pretty much the single item in the entire game that forces gen regression to be as punishing as it is today.
But in tournaments, most killers wont be able to delay long enough without pain res.
I, in general, feel like custom games should be upgraded where you can actively tweak the numbers on perks and addons. Then tournaments can tweak everything to balance for the tournament. The main reason they shouldnt, ofcourse, is that hackers would be able to use the custom game settings and bring them over to live servers. But it would forever be able to balance tournaments. -
@TamaraLatte said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072055#Comment_4072055
I figured. He must be using addons to reduce the time it takes to shock again. They need to look at that.
That's the thing, even with those addons, you cant do this. If you started an unhook, get shocked, then you should be able to complete the next unhook.
There might be some interaction with Iridescent Queen that's bugged around hooked survivors, but that would need confirmation -
@TWiXT said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072061#Comment_4072061
Unfortunately not the case, The perks keep shutting each other off, for example:
Strike the obsession and activate Dark Devotion, then go kick a gen to activate Unforeseen = Dark Devotion shuts off, and Unforeseen is now active. If you Hit the Obsession again, Unforeseen shuts off, and Dark Devotion becomes active. I'm unsure of what happens when Hex: Overture of Doom activates, but it likely shuts off the others if they're active, the question then becomes what happens if you activate Unforeseen or Dark Devotion while Hex: Overture of Doom is active? Does it shut off the Hex?
Likewise, it's best to never bring Dark Devotion in with any Obsession changing perks like Furtive Chase or Friends till the End because as soon as the obsession changes, it shuts off Dark Devotion.
Ah, then that must a functional update once after I tested it. Prior to that update, it would actually apply to both because I tested it out with friends on Swamp when Unforeseen was in the PTB. One was on a gen on one end, the other had Dark Devotion on the other end and I blasted both of them.
I've only really used it 2-3 times since then, not really noticing too much because the cooldown was 60 seconds at the time, and in practice, its quite rare to have both Unforeseen and Dark Devotion active at the same time. So I've never really noticed a descrepancy. So not sure if it was a PTB thing only. -
@TWiXT said:
While flat out undetectable perks are not that great on him since you can't use his static blast, it's still hilarious when you use TR transfer perks like Dark Devotion or Unforeseen, because the blast radiates from wherever your current TR is located. Think of it like this:
Dark Devotion triggers and transfers your TR to the obsession survivors, ergo, you whack em, and let them run off to get healed, and boom, 1 static blast reveals where they and their healing teammates are! They become like a Static blast survivor seeking missile.
Unforeseen is also funny, because it puts your TR on a Generator. Survivors hear the TR but quickly figure out that you're not around, so they pile up on the gen, only for the gen itself to shock all of them, and hey, give you info on how many are over there working on it, and whether or not you should prioritize protecting it.
There's also that one Krasue perk… yeah… forget about that one, it's garbage.
If you want an alternative build that allows you to play Doc Stealthy, use the Ninja Doc build:
Calm Carters notes, Calm 2 + Monitor and Abuse and your choice of perks for the other 3.
With this build, While you're Static blast is fully charged and you're in a chase, you're TR is a MASSIVE 52 m, but when you're not in a chase, and your Static blast has been used/is charging up, your TR is a Tiny 10 m! The constant fluctuating size of your TR drives survivors nuts, especially on indoor maps.
Overall, Doc is one of the most versatile killers when you make builds around the add-ons you bring in. Some builds are just memes, but others like the ninja build, make him a grater threat and completely subvert survivors expectations. Experiment away, and have fun!
That Krasue perks is genuinely funny to use with Dark Devotion and Unforeseen. 3 terror radii across the map.
-
@Snitz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071463#Comment_4071463
The only reason you have more trouble hitting survivors with nurse than with ghoul is because you suck at nurse, idk how this is a good argument.
The real skill ceiling of nurse is learning the blink distance, once you know that you just slap on aura read and go to town, it pisses me off how many people overrate the nurses' skill ceilling when it's just muscle memory.
Nurse is even banned from dbdLeague balancing lmao. These are the sweatiest players imaginable and they just chose to ban her at the highest level.
They placed Ghoul with Dracula and Hillbilly in their tournament stage based system which goes down by tiers, fair placement imo.
Lol, no. The main reason I have trouble hitting survivors with Nurse is because survivors can break line of sight from Nurse and actually dodge her blinks. If you think Nurse just gets easier hits than Ghoul as a whole, then you havent played Ghoul enough.
And yeah, also ignore all the comments made where Ghoul starts being worse than Nurse once 3 survivors are on comms.
Nurse against 4 randoms is worse than Ghoul against 4 randoms. Comms is a MASSIVE weakness to Ghoul, while comms is a huge benefit for Nurse because she can quite easily predict what the comms are. If a survivor suddenly goes in a direction they logically wouldnt, odds are that they are trying to take her away from something. Where with Ghoul, pathing doesnt matter too much, you always go to the area where Ghoul has the least benefit.
So yes, if you do the following:
1. Ban perks that survivors need to face a Nurse, but have a similar effect on Blight, Spirit and Ghoul
2. Guarantee survivors know which killer they are facing ahead of time
3. Guarantee survivors are a 4-man squad, on comms
Yeah, Nurse would be better than every other killer. But in regular DBD, where you have no bans on anything, no guarantee if survivors have comms or not, no info on who the killer will be. Ghoul absolutely is better.
Just as a comparison. That's like saying you're playing hide and seek, but the seeker gets updates on the spot of hiders, and the hiders get walkie talkies to communicate where the seeker is so they can find a new spot. You're playing an entirely different game of hide and seek at that point. That's the difference between live servers and custom tournaments. You dont get to make ANY points based on tournament balancing vs live servers, because they are different environments all together.
Ghoul is stronger than Nurse on the live servers, because there is no comms, and survivors dont know when they will face one. -
A killer mistake doesnt always matter, a survivor mistake can very easily turn into a loss.
Like, you can guess where survivors are, and make a mistake of not guessing correctly, the end result of the game reduces the chance of a win very slightly.
Survivors can guess where a teammate is to heal them up, and make the mistake of not guessing correctly, and now you basically had a 1v3 for the duration where they missed their guess, reducing the chance to finish enough generators in time.
The only survivor mistake that doesnt really matter, is a survivor missing a skillcheck. Mainly because killers dont investigate a missed skillcheck unless they literally have nothing else on their mind.
If we take the impact of all killer mistakes and all survivor mistakes, 1 survivor mistake equals roughly 5 killer mistakes.
I'm mainly guessing you're talking about Dead Hard or DS, but those are in the same ballpark as Pain Res. Why do you get to regress a gen you have not interacted with? It was your mistake to not check up on it and now you get regression for free even if you're on the other end of the map. -
@niteowl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067881#Comment_4067881
I would argue toolboxes arent relied upon for balance bt disrupt the already fine efficiency survivors have avaliable
Oh no, toolboxes are absolutely counted. People who dont run toolboxes often run perks that buy a similar amount of time in other aspects, like healspeed, unhook protection, self-healing, flashlight rescues, etc, but even in those lobbies, there is almost always someone with a toolbox.
If you were to remove every single perk and only allow items and their addons, you'd only see toolboxes and maybe 1 medkit.
In fact, I would argue the main reason toolboxes arent nerfed, is because gen regression perks exist. -
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069953#Comment_4069953
It takes 2 seconds from the moment of cancellation, but by the time he lands next to the survivor, its less than 0.5 seconds. That is by far the bigger problem. Vaulting really wasnt that big of a problem compared to that. You could countervault a Kaneki on a pallet or window if they messed up their movement, but you couldnt counter them sliding towards you.The only problem with vaulting was the kidnap tech, where kaneki would vault while survivors would be stuck.So you mentioned kidnap tech but kinda missplayed it was big problem.
Your entire…. is more showing that you didnt read it to fully understand it but ok.
Ghoul earns second hit he is the most or one of the most high tier or now more specific A-tier killers that play like m1 killer in chase because his power isnt much useable on many loops due to its range requirement to be able to hit something you need to be like 5 or more meters away from it, his only part of his power on loops that somewhat useable is vault. Ghoul ears his second hit if he uses his leaps well its not as easy as getting his first hit to leap near survivor or into him and down him befoer he reaches safety and its skilled thing one of hardest things to do especialy on loops but you would need to look up something about ghoul than just hate him for his existance.
See, I did read it to understand it, but I highly disagree for the simple fact that I've played Ghoul and Nurse too, and Nurse has a harder time hitting survivors than Ghoul has leaping towards a target, cancelling mid-air and then hitting a survivor. In fact, Nurse has more counterplay, because she cant curve her blinks.
A lot of people who used to play tournament sweat levels of Nurse, have an easier time playing Ghoul against 95% of players. They start to even out against 2-man and 3-man SWF, and Nurse doesnt gain an objective advantage over Ghoul untill it's a 4-man SWF. And that's talking about chase duration, that's about results.
Ghoul is to Nurse now what Spirit was to Nurse in 2020. And while Nurse is objectively weaker compared to her version in 2020, I would argue Nurse with the current arsenal of perks and availability of maps is overall stronger than Nurse with the arsenal of perks in 2020. She just can no longer slug 4 randoms at the start of the game as easily, but she can pick up and end chases much faster overall. -
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069756#Comment_4069756
It all depends how you run if you allow him to be in your survivor with his slide speed than its hard to deal with but if you double back or run around round object he wont have that short distance to you.
Vaulting was always buggy kidnap tech does it ring a bell? Than it was kinda post fixed but still happened that was his problem or kindap tech with his first after vault hitbox that was very long compare to wesker which meant you vaulted something he vaulted right behind you and you couldnt move and he downed you this was first major problem and than even with nerfed vault hitbox you were still stuck there till he vaulted and you were cooked basicaly more than him using his leap to get to you and cancel just because you dont remember it doesnt mean it didnt happen.
Slinging is partly avoideable, if you mean slinging which is using his second dash fast behind his first (I think you need to be enraged for this) which makes like his slide speed stack and makes him faster this is bug into tech I believe but normal ghoul sliding speed isnt that broken just instead showing with finger on whole character try to describe what you find broken (if you mean slinging/slingshot tech than I get it).
And kindnap tech was major problem you were stuck in place and couldnt do anything and when you could ghoul was already behind that object coming for you and if you ghot stuck near pallet very close to it he just slaped you and downed you which was super common in his first realeased state.
I just hope you go to watch some ghoul vid about his techs and describe it more than just like this.
I literally mentioned the kidnap tech, which was the only problem with vaults, which I also mentioned.
Your entire comment basically can be shortened to: "I didnt fully read your comment, but sliding depends on how good the ghoul is. Sliding isnt always avoidable, but because there is a 5% chance it can be avoided, it's fine to give ghoul a guaranteed hit on top of his basekit guaranteed hit".
No, Ghoul absolutely needs to EARN his second hit, since he gets the first one for free. He doesnt earn the second hit in most scenario's, which is why people despise ghoul. -
@QwQw said:
I think a big problem with Doctor is the fact that survivors can press the vault button as they're running up to the pallet/window. This effectively means that from your perspective, you can shock a survivor before they start the vaulting animation, yet they will still vault over anyways because them running was actually apart of the animation.
This is rarely a problem for other killers, but it feels horrible for Doctor, especially when latency is factored in. I think the simplest fix would just be to have his shock cancel the vault unless the survivor has reached the point in the animation where they are actively touching the interactable.
I wouldnt mind this tbh, this is annoying to figure out, but overall not too bad as you can really use it against survivors too.
What I do think could be a QoL in that scenario, is that windows would be blocked for X amount of seconds if you were shocked mid-vault. You can break dropped pallets and use pallets to block survivors in, but windows are a different story. -
@Mr_K said:
Doc is not weaker, he was always weak. You are facing better survivor who know to pre-drop pallets, hold W, and go for other vaults when they hear the charge.
The only strength to the Doc was shuting down gens on small maps. Well there are larger maps and a limit to how many times a gen can regress now. Since the ability to hold progress has been reduced, he is where he always was, a mid tier killer.
He was a weak killer compared to the average killer, always has been, but he has gotten weaker. That's not because stronger survivors, because in general, due to how Doc has dropped in how common he is, I therefor expect less survivors to know all the weaknesses. Which is true. But the counterplay to each weakness has been increased:
More lockers, meaning easier to dodge static blast
More jungle gyms where the window and pallet are on opposing sides
On average bigger pallet obstacles that are not only affecting Doc, Huntress is the biggest example other than Doc that has gotten weaker because of other balancing things. Huntress was pretty much always in the middle of A tier, but I can give you names of quite a few Huntress mains who will say she's mid B at best. Not because survivors have gotten stronger, but because tiles have changed.
I would have considered Doc somewhere between top C-mid B. Now, the only reason I wouldnt put him into D is because static blast does give him quite a bit of info.
Doc could shut down killer shack within 3 loops with well timed m2's, he can still do that. Doc could shut down most other loops within 2 loops or at least force a pallet drop. He can no longer do that, it is mathematically impossible and the average lies around 4 loops before a pallet is forced to be dropped. Like, imagine a killer who was designed where survivors needed to go from tile to tile because they couldnt loop a good doctor, not because they were bad, but because staying at 1 tile would mathematically guarantee hits for doctor within 2 loops.
So just in short, before, on average, it was mathematically impossible for survivors to loop any tile more than 2 times without getting hit if both sides played perfectly. They needed to drop the pallet and move on, or risk a hit.
Now, its mathematically impossible for Doc to get a hit within 3 times if both sides play perfectly, and while mathematically possible in the 4th loop, that will depend on ping.
It doesnt matter if survivors got better, mathematically speaking, doc got weaker. -
@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069640#Comment_4069640
Or Ghoul being able to Grab attack you through objects and walls and while your second floor and he's on first floor because the poorly implemented Hitscan and the dsync of the match creates a miserable experience against him.
Or like perks like Bloodfavor and Dissolution ran by ghouls is the most agonizing thing to face.
I've reached the opinion that if Dissolution gives enough value on a killer for that killer to constantly run it, then that killer needs a nerf, because their only counterplay is vaulting pallets.
Which is quite funny because Krasue, Ghoul, Skull Merchant and Knight have all had periods of time where they ran Dissolution because of the only realistic counter play being vaulting pallets. -
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069640#Comment_4069640
It takes two seconds and he must control his slide so if you spin him he wont get that much of a distance, the vault was most problematic part since release if you remember but I bet you dont and it was till now when they remove part of his power and didnt even mentioned it in nerfs and buffs changes but only put something to bigfix part of the patch.
That ability to cancel is only good with slide effect and it still can be play around just the astronomical number of people tend to run straigh against him which is something you cant always do especialy against killers like ghoul,blight,nurse,billy, henry you should use your surrounding to block their powers trajectory or los.
It takes 2 seconds from the moment of cancellation, but by the time he lands next to the survivor, its less than 0.5 seconds. That is by far the bigger problem. Vaulting really wasnt that big of a problem compared to that. You could countervault a Kaneki on a pallet or window if they messed up their movement, but you couldnt counter them sliding towards you.
The only problem with vaulting was the kidnap tech, where kaneki would vault while survivors would be stuck. -
@Little_Kitten said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068905#Comment_4068905
And instead of thinking it might be smart to limit, for example, the number of perks of the same “type” to X instead of allowing players to stack 4… they’d rather nerf a killer. Brilliant.
I don’t know why, but I don’t think a Blight going on a winstreak is doing it with no perks, or with random perks.
But hey, what can you do—it’s trendy to base decisions on the results of a single Blight in the game to conclude he’s too strong, while carefully avoiding the idea that maybe the survivors are just too bad.
Leveling down. Classic.
I mean, while I do agree that certain perks like gen regression should be treated as exhaustion perks, that still doesnt take away that Blight isnt having winstreak because of gen slowdowns.
Without the gen slowdown perks, Blight still has winstreaks reaching 20-30 wins in a row, but instead of 3 gens remaining, now it's 0-1 gens remaining and he would only lose against a really good swf while he is making mistakes.
Blight is a problem, same is true for Kaneki and Nurse. Both are mobility killers that can already create pressure with downing survivors quickly, then they also create pressure by slowing down gens with perks that dont require them to go to those gens. The past 2 years, the only reason a Blight came to my gen was to chase me, not to pressure the generator, often not even kicking it, because Pain Res would do that. But destroying Pain Res only makes them change it to Surge or Ruin instead.
Blight is one of 5 killers who does not need to tunnel or slug in chaos shuffle to get a 90% winrate. That fact alone makes him problematic, because you have people who still tunnel and slug in that gamemode as blight, making winrates as close to 100% -
So, I am fine with this, if stealth killer are getting a small upgrade overall too.
Like, for Myers this change doesnt matter too much, people are going to see him, he's still going to be stealthy.
People will know it's Pig fairly soon either way, same for Onryo, for the same reason
Ghostface only really has his first stalk being a surprise reveal, every other following stalk is a given.
This only really leaves Wraith, who only has his first uncloak really being a surprise reveal.
So I dont think stealth killers are receiving too big of a nerf.
In fact, I think the killer who gets affected the most, is Hag, since her ability to set up a web relies on the fact that survivors dont know she's there.
I do think BHVR needs to start catagorizing killers into 5 main groups:
1. mobility
2. stealth
3. low-mobility(basically ranged killers)
4. basekit slowdown (any killer that has basekit mending, or killers like Pig and Pinhead)
5. entrapment (Trapper, Hag, maybe Pig too?)
And then add values to those catagories that will cover certain aspects, like giving all killers 10% haste after hooking a survivor, except mobility killers. Giving entrapment killers basekit genblocking at the start of the game as they need time to setup anyway. That way, you can balance out those killers as a group, and if any specific killer is too strong or too weak in those groups, they can be adjusted to it -
@Aven_Fallen said:
Agree with the general ideas why Doctor is weak. When reading your suggestions, I have some concerns tho. I have played Doctor a very long time and after I played him recently, it is quite obvious how much he has fallen off (I learned him back when you had to switch stances and played him a lot after the Rework and always quite regularly).
To your suggestions:
1 and 5 should obviously not happen together, but I cannot currently see if this might not be too much Shock Duration. It sounds really long, but in reality it will probably be fine. However, if either of those happened, they should do something against his camping potential since you can interrupt Unhooks very reliable with the Shocks.
2 Fully agree on the Slowdown, it is too much by todays standards. 4.0 at least sounds reasonable, I dont think he should be full speed, but not losing distance or only losing a very bit of distance (when being slightly lower than 4.0) should be fine.
I dont like suggestion 3. Simply because with Shock Therapy you at least have to aim, while Static Blast would be an action block without anything you really have to do except for pressing one button.
Suggestion 4 is interesting, but a few things here. I dont think that a permanent 8% breaking Speed increase would be too strong, even when paired with Brutal Strength. Because it will be at least 8%, since you should have people in Madness 1 very quickly. But I dont know if 16% paired with Brutal Strength is not a bit too much, since you cannot go down from Madness 2 as Survivor. But this is just a feeling. Not a fan of Pallets breaking instantly when using M2 when all Survivors are in Madness 3. It will be a once in a blue moon-scenario, but the Survivor in chase would be the one screwed the most, even if they are the one who cannot snap out of Madness at all, so he basically has to deal with it because the team is not snapping out of it fast enough.
I actually think 1 and 5 are not too bad together, 5 only really happens when you miss an m2 and 1 is really annoying because both the slowdown and the m1 being locked. But the combination of 1, 2 and 5 does worry me. I think at least 1&2 or 2&5 should happen, but 1, 2 and 5 together do need different values.
And while I originally would agree with your stance on 3, there is a very simple argument against it:
Survivors can dodge it by jumping in lockers, it has a 45 second cooldown and a longer charge period. -
@Xray said:
He's strong in a way that gives people seizures if they dont ever change his static effects.
They did some changes with it recently, but imo they should just hit it behind a toggle, and on your first start-up of the game they should give you an accessibility screen to pre-select toggles like color blindness, epilepsy etc that will disable those effects.
-
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069323#Comment_4069323
Ghouls vault created the most biggest problems since his release and now I would say here are none because his counterplay when you learn it has no counter from ghouls side.
Cool-downs:
- Charge-cancellation cool-down: 1 second
- Leap Vault cool-down: 1.25 seconds
- Used after vaulting with Kagune Leap.
- Leap cool-down: 2 seconds
- Used for both cancelling Kagune Leap and running out of Leap Tokens.
- First Leap cool-down: 2.5 seconds
- Used after latching onto survivors on the First Leap or if they are already holding a Kagune Mark. This cool-down requires The Ghoul to be within Grab-Attack range to activate.
- Grab cool-down: 3 seconds
- Used after performing a Grab-Attack.
From this he has 2 seconds window in which he cant attack after canceling power and all he can do is get close with slide from leap or leap without slide. For comparision blight has 2,5 second cooldown if he misses rush and 3 seconds if he hits his rush but the KEY difference is that blight can damage you with his rush, ghoul cannot damage you with his leap only first time but cant down you (damaging you is meant into downed state here for making this more clear), this isnt that problematic part because in order for ghoul to get that hit fast he needs to use his slide to be very close to you and there are ways how to prevent it same with wraith who without uncloak addons is few meters behind you if he starts uncloaking on your level when you keep running staright (objects make killers trajectory longer and make speed less effective than it is in open area).
For charges 4 seconds per charge when he is not enraged which is 8 seconds for two leaps one with slide effect and when he is enraged its 2,5 so 7,5 seconds for 3 leaps and two have slide. Compare to now blights 10 second whole power, many people forget there isnt many ways for ghoul to get downs he has mobility and first hit into deep wound but than he has not many tools to get down only use of his leaps which isnt easy to use on loops and his vault that can be countered totaly now.
The VAULT created the biggest problem? Not the ability to cancel the power mid-air and start recovering your M1 while you launched yourself towards another survivor, giving them a window of only 0.2 seconds to react instead of the 2 seconds they intended survivors to react?
If Ghoul loses the ability to cancel his power mid-air and start recovering, I'd be 100x happier than if they make Ghoul 4.4 -
@Raptorrotas said:
Stop with the 4.4, its outdated by todays game speed.
4.4 is far from outdated. Spirit is still a very strong killer. Trickster is a killer who can deal with it. Huntress and Hag are the only 2 killers with 4.4 that are actively suffering, and that's more due to their basekits having been untouched for too long.
In fact, every single mobility and ranged killer should be 4.4 since they can close gaps. Anyone that cannot close the gap should be 4.6.
Maps are smaller, generators are closer together overall, loops are weaker overall, games take longer. 4.4 has literally never been more viable compared to the game speed.
Fyi, in 2028, the average game lasted 7-8 minutes, today, that's closer to 14 minutes. -
@SoGo said:
In my humble opinion, the gens are relatively fine, or at least would be if the Blood Pumps spawned evenly across the map.
I do agree with this, because the main problem right now is that the longest I've walked to do a generator (I timed it) was 145 seconds. If Ruin was there, I would have needed 5 trips, upping the amount of time to do 1 single gen as efficiently as possible to 250+ seconds. Ruin is the kind of hex you dont always want to destroy because sometimes the time to get rid of it can take longer than the time extra it takes to push through Ruin (which is a good thing, your maximum value from the perk would be them destroying it, meaning you gain a lot of time by just keeping pressure on important gens consistently, effectively buying you time as long as they dont delete it, but buying you more time if they go out of their way to try and find it).
I think if they simply added a rule that there HAS to be a fuel tank within 30 meters (which is about 8 seconds running, losing about 6 charges, which is 1 kick away from requiring 4 cans, or a minimum of 14 seconds walking, meaning you spend at minimum 70 seconds if you decide to walk with cans and run back and then ~50 seconds emptying/refueling cans, so 120 second generators), and a rule that says a fuel tank cannot spawn within 20 meters of a blood gen (getting roughly 89 second gens, assuming survivors dont run). Then survivors can save up to 10-20 seconds by running in both scenario's, but running risks adding another trip.
Then, ABSOLUTELY add the gen perks. Right now, I think the furthest the fuel tank can be is about 50 meters, which basically means you cannot do that generator if there is any gen regression perk. -
@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/465662/blood-generators
No, that was never the "whole point of introducing them" it was just something they didn't do.
They copied the generators, gave them a new model, than adjusted them to not count as generators. That is 100% intended to not have generator perks affecting them at all to see what would happen if survivors would have to go around the map to collect parts to fix a generator rather than just sitting on one.