Defnotmeghead
Defnotmeghead
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There is a ton of prevention at play. The main problem that ALL games deal with now, is that cheaters have more tools available to them than ever.
Accountbans were circumventable for quite obvious reasons that I wont say out loud. Epic Games has amplified it a little, but that impact isnt as big as you think it is. They still have to happen, for obvious reasons.
IP bans were always easy to circumvent if you knew how. These tend to happen with a time-limit, because longterm someone else might procure the banned IP.
Hardware ID bans required buying new equipment, hacking existing equipment to change the ID(which had the risk of breaking all other functionality) or an HW spoofer which at the time was financially more expensive than new equipment, so used to be the main way of preventing cheaters from coming back up untill about 2020, when it got significantly cheaper. It's still the strongest way of banning cheaters, but it's extremely difficult to properly do so these days. Even if a company has kernel level anti-cheat, which is the strongest anti-cheat possible and can negatively impact legitimate players more than hackers, it can still be fooled by a good(expensive) spoofer (remember the Hitman release having insane DRM to prevent piracy actually lagging out the game, but a pirated copy without DRM was released 1 week after anyway, and people who purchased the game actually pirated the game because it was less laggy than the legit version?).
So the quest for the anti-cheat team is finding an autoban that only applies to people who cheat and even block them from logging into the game, and keeping that autoban hidden for as long as possible. Whenever you see basically 0 cheaters, the team succesfully found a method to bar them out. Once you see cheaters popping up again, they found a way around the bar, but there might be another ban in place later on. Once you see cheaters en-masse, the people working on the cheating software found a way around the bar and any other protective measure put in place.
There is no single way to fully prevent cheaters, because it's multiplayer. You communicate with the server, which is on itself a weakness that lets in cheaters. As long as there is an entry point for you, there is an entry point for cheaters. You ward cheaters off, and if you want a 0% banrate on legitimate players, there is always going to be a push and pull situation.
IMO, there should be a reconnect possibility to any match, even if you DC for any reason, and then a kick mechanic implemented that kicks players who have a high chance of cheating. Then the DC penalty should be implemented if you never join back again or if you start another queue instead of rejoining. I wouldnt mind getting kicked once every 20 games because the game thinks I have had a high risk of cheating if it means having cheaters kicked in 95% of games they play, and those who have an insanely high kick rate are also much easier to identify as cheaters. But that would cost time to implement, and cheaters arent the reason my playtime has been reduced from 80-100 hours a month to maybe 10 hours a month. -
@Classic_Rando said:
BP incentives have been broken for at least a year now. BHVR don’t seem too concerned as they obviously haven’t fixed them yet, nor have they even bothered to mention anything about them being broken or any plans to fix them.
It's not been broken, the incentive is based on how many killers are queued up/in-game vs how many survivors are queued up/in-game. Generally speaking, if there are 5+ survivors per killer, there is a killer incentive. When there are 3.5 survivors per killer, there is a survivor incentive. Those arent exact numbers, but it's a good rule of thumb to have. And yes, that is quite accurate. Survivors have generally been quitting the game more than killers, especially after the release of Ghoul, the increase of slugging and tunnelling and the lack of promises that would adjust those issues and instead making the issues worse (when they would implement the anti-slug and anti-tunnel update, killers would recieve hookstates per survivor, instead of having to keep track of it themselves, the entire update got ditched, except the hookstates, making it even easier to tunnel)
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@cogsturning said:
Most aura is pretty easy to counter. You just have to pay attention to the killer's build and react accordingly.
Honestly, they should add the revealed mechanic to survivors once they've been hooked once. It would also help detect cheaters. I've had to actually inspect a few maps before sending a report through for wallhacking once, because they changed the location of some lockers, causing me to be revealed in a spot where I was certain I would be safe from aura's and it REALLY felt like they were cheating and hiding it with perks.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043281#Comment_4043281
At this point we tried to be constructiveyThats exactly my point. When its just constant complaints with no actual considerations or reasonable feedback, it leads to kneejerk reactions that dumpster something to calm the fire instead of actually fixing it. Fog vials are actually a great example, because the most constructive arguments (especially normalization between maps before ANY opacity adjustments) got ignored or lost in a sea of posts showing loaded examples of it being too strong or weak depending on the map, using them to try to force arguments about it being too strong or not strong enough. As someone who has a lot of accessibility issues with the item (still do, so literally nobody is happy with their current state) I absolutely would have preferred measured re-evaluations were made as the items variables were more contained, but instead, its just bloodweb clutter now.
but it should take 9 months to make one killer who recently came out not frustrating to play against.If you think 9 months is a long time to wait for a promised change, you might not be terribly familiar with this game's history (or present, for that matter.)
As someone who has created a LOT of constructive feedback. It doesnt help.
With this PTB, that's literally killer number 2 that gets free injuries without any skill needed to do so, without any downsides to it. On top of that having an ability like Krasue that on paper sounds fair, but its extremely easy to turn a non-damaging ability into a damaging one.
Plague has free injures, but she's an m1 killer untill she gets her power from a basin, which is limited to how often survivors cleanse. Legion has relatively free injures, but its relatively difficult to use his power to get downs.
Like, imagine Doctor got the ability to use his Static Blast to injure survivors that were madness T2 or higher. That would instantly make him an A tier killer, if not higher.
Constructive feedback has proven to not be the best way of getting change to happen. They literally didnt even adjust the kidnap tech untill outrage on a stream that happened 7 months after release. Despite 7 months worth of constructive feedback, it was 10 minutes of frustrated yelling that got the attention to actually get changed.
And just for the mods: that's not an invite to start yelling for change. But this definitely is a sign that BHVR should streamline their processes again, because this is 2019 DBD again, where yelling on streams worked while forum feedback was mainly ignored. We want 2020-2021 DBD back, where forum feedback actually had notable impact and screaming on stream wasnt neccesary.
As someone who works in IT, I know for a fact that Ghoul should have been a high priority case on the backlog due to how often people complain about playing against him, and due to how often he is being played. Yet he is being treated as if people play him as much as people play Twins.
That alone is indicative that someone either purposely is ignoring things, some stakeholder(possibly license holder) has a lot of influence to keep Ghoul as he is now, or messages never reach the backlog.
I genuinely hope that the license holder is the main reason Ghoul isnt getting changes, because the other 2 are worse. -
@chatgiraffe said:
Survivors mad about more DC penalties? Have they considered just not DCing? It puts a big smile on my face whenever some loser ragequits against me knowing they're actually being punished
Just as a simple header: none of this is to excuse DC's of any kind. It's just meant to give a broader perspective on why the current system IMO is terribly designed.
Killers also DC, and some players want to DC whenever a cheater is involved. You dont get the abandon feature when there is a cheater.
I do believe both systems should be applied. 1 penalty removal per day, 1 penalty removal per 20 games. The penalty accumulation is already fine.
That's 1 "free" dc per day, which is fine, honestly. But people shouldnt be punished if they had network issues one week and had multiple disconnects despite thinking they fixed the problem, only to come back 5 weeks later, seeing if the issue was resolved, happening to encounter a cheater and then being met with a 20 minute DC penalty. That would make people leave the game forever.
And dc's actually do get punished, you cant enter a match for 5 minutes, you dont get any rewards from the game so your time was literally wasted. What else do you want? To lose the player forever because they ragequit once or twice a day?
See, I was wondering why players were generally leaving overall. The refusal to put in an improved anti-slug basekit mechanic was one reason. But this? I had 1 game where I quit because I faced 4 kaneki's in a row. The most boring killer IMO to face, I decided 5 minutes in the lobby was better than 10 minutes facing another kaneki. Is that abusing the system? I wouldnt say so, plenty of people have issues against Kaneki and those issues should have been getting attention 2 months after his release. Whatever, it's my reason. My general stance is if a DC is more appealing than playing the game, either there is a problem that needs to be attended. The killer who I've experienced gets the most DC's is Kaneki, so simple conclusion is that Kaneki needs to be more fun to face. Punishing people more for DC'ing when they dont enjoy the game is only going to make people leave. And the evidence is in the playercount.
Anyway, back to the issue: I dc'd once due to facing the same build on the same kind of Kaneki. Was my last game of that day anyway, it was whatever. I spend some BP, timer ran out. Didnt play the game for 3 days, a game I expected to last 10-15, 20 minutes at most ended up lasting 30+ minutes and I had to leave, I wasnt on deadhook, so I dc'd to leave a bot behind and even left the game on as I didnt have time to close things off before an evening event. I come back from vacation, 2 weeks later mind you, happen to have someone cheating and it wasnt fun. I dc'd because of that. 1 DC out of arguable malice, 2 DC's that I would consider somewhat valid reasons to press the disconnect button.
Did the system create less DC's? Yes. Did the system help reduce playercount significantly? Also yes.
This system doesnt punish those who DC because their build didnt work out due to a killer fully countering it. They play 20+ games between DC's anyway. It punishes people who play casually and steers them away from the game possibly forever.
And if 1 penalty reduction per day is "too forgiving" (which, ridiculous statement IMO), then reduce the penalty by 1 for every unique login per day. -
@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039829#Comment_4039829
The "issue" they brought up is "if you're playing a weaker killer you have an excuse to lose so why tryhard to win". That is not an issue. They are saying that if you are on a weaker killer, you shouldn't tunnel because you're not on an S tier anyway so might as well play for survivors to have fun and then use the cope of "I wasn't bringing the strongest stuff" because I lose.
Also, healthy gameplay changes for tunneling should be basekit and not buffing DS. If you think that is a healthy way to improve the game you certainly haven't thought very far ahead. That change would just make running the perk necessary. And even if it is becoming free when the Halloween license leaves, requiring a perk be run just to play the game if you don't want to be tunneled is not healthy.
And while crude, the point was: why play like an ass from the start just to win because you play a killer you dont think can win without doing so, when you can just go and have fun with the killer instead and see where it gets you? If you want to win so badly, why play a killer you dont think can win unless you tunnel at 5 gens?
Also, what I said was to make DS basekit and make tweaks that effectively buff it. Everything I mentioned would be made basekit. But maybe you read over that bit. My stance in general nowadays is to make DS basekit and rework the perk. It should have been made basekit when BT was made basekit. Then some killers would have been forced into a buff or rework (especially our homeboy Trapper) and the game overall would have been in a healthier state. instead of the mess it is now. -
@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039633#Comment_4039633
I don’t know about you, but I’d rather play optimally and try to win than play suboptimally expecting to lose because I can make an excuse when I do.
Tunnelling isnt optimal tho. It's only effective due to lack of comms. Optimal is still survivor 1, survivor 2, survivor 1, survivor 3, survivor 1, survivor 2, survivor 3, survivor 1, survivor 2. That's the optimal route for a 4k against any team-up.
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@TheLastSane1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039633#Comment_4039633
Quick question, why do you think Killer players should not expect to win or try to win? Because this is a video game, and while I get you are an entitled Survivor Main, I was pretty sure you all understood that this was a game and that both sides are trying to win.
Also, I think killer players should expect losing about 40% of their games and being okay with that. You literally have people crashing out because they won 20 games in a row with a 3k and then lose once to a 1k.
I am not a survivor main, I am a mixed player. It's now about 35% of my hours spend on killer and 65% on survivor because my killers have not been tweaked much to a point where they arent viable on 60% of maps unless you go full meta and consistently are forced to tunnel at 2 gens remaining, so they relied on map offerings and when those got nerfed I only play them for the sake of challenges.
And if both sides tried to win, you should agree a 50% winrate should be fine right? I never hear survivors complainging about losing games, I hear them complain about being rushed out of a game or being slugged all game. Yet, I hear killers complain when their winrate drops below 85%. When the average killrate in high MMR was 2.3, that was unacceptable, despite that averaging a 55% winrate.
It's the killers being entitled to wins here, not survivors. Survivors just dont want to be rushed out at 4-5 gens (which is possible thanks to painres DMS and Grim), and survivors dont want to be forced to stay still and hold m1 to recover while being unable to do anything.
The first PTB was conceptually perfect for survivors. Punish killers hard for rushing hooks and kills at 4-5 gens, it just needed tweaks for killers, especially sadako. Yet killers whined, because they would lose too many games, despite it being very easy to not tunnel at 4-5 gens, switching up some perks and voila. Instead of getting the update survivors needed as QoL in March, survivors got NOTHING in 2025. Instead, killers recieved even more tools to make tunnelling and slugging easier than ever. -
@TheLastSane1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039330#Comment_4039330
So by that logic all Killer perks should be active and not require a successful chase first right?
See the issue with survivors like this, is that none of you want to manage resources you just want to auto-win the game. You don't want the killer to chase you, don't want them to be allowed to hit you, and they aren;t allowed to pick you up either.
Do you see why people consider you whiny? You want to play a game, where you expect all of the game mechanics to stop working so you can win. Thats whiny loser behavior.I mean, DS didnt use to be automatic because people were given the option to not use it, so they could use it in their second or third chase. Nowadays, after the engine update, if it gets triggered, you cant save it. So it might aswell be automatic considering the only reason before was for the sake of using it later.
As for killer perks that should not require a succesful chase, what do you mean? DS triggers for 60 seconds after you get unhooked and do not progress the game, and it disables permanently after the last gen is finished. The killer has the ability to never get hit by DS even if all 4 survivors run it, by simply not picking up a survivor within 60 seconds unless the last gen popped or if they are certain the survivor did a conspicious action.
The closest killer perks that comes close to the design logic of DS(aka rushing an objective to a point the opponent needs a perk for prevention) are NOED and Bloodwarden.
As for "none of you want to manage resources, you just want to auto-win the game" as if that literally isnt happening to killers right now. Crawling while recovering being added to basekit for survivor QoL? "But when I am losing, I cant slug to win". Elusive being added basekit? "But if I am losing, I cant tunnel to win" (despite elusive still allowing you to tunnel, it just forces you to do more than count to 10".
The past updates have literally removed resource management for killers so much, that all you have to do is chase untill you down and repeat. Killers rarely have to decide "yknow what? This chase is going to last longer than I want, I am going to stop the chase early and chase someone else in this area". Survivors still have to think on which gens to do, because if they dont, they are likely to create a 3-gen. And while perma 3-genning isnt possible anymore, 3-gens are still hard to break against 70% of killers. How often do you see killers aim for a 3-gen these days? Never, because they just start slugging regardless because they didnt think.
Everytime I decide to pick up killer, survivors are literally unprepared for killers leaving chase, for killers aiming for 3-gens, for killers who rinse survivors through the same area's because then they blame their teammates that there are no pallets left. No, there arent, because I kept pushing survivors there untill none were left. Do I lose? Yeah, about 15% of my games while playing killers like Doc or Trapper.
It's a rant, but really, killer mains have been influencing the modern meta too much, to the point that we have once again 2 killers having similar mechanics that cannot be countered without comms (Krasue and Ghoul, both are high mobility, low cooldown and injure without having to do much, you need teammates tanking hits to prevent a free early kill). And this time around, there has been enough feedback and time to change things, but they wont. That's why they've lost players that wont return untill things are fun again -
@Zuiphrode said:
Pain Resonance literally is the opposite of a tunnelling perk since it only works once per person.
Yet people tunnel someone out with pain res, and thanks to pain res existing, they dont really get punished for it.
In short, tunnelling is easier because of pain res. With Pop, you need to interact with a generator. With painres, you can mindlessly tunnel, especially with killers like Nurse, Ghoul and Blight, and even if survivors rush gens because you tunnel, you can still come back thanks to pain res. Not even talking that it stacks with Ruin.
Besides, if it's not a tunnelling perk, then you shouldnt see any issues with pain res being disabled once someone dies, right? If you lose out on 1 stack, that's not too bad. The only people who should actively see an issue with Pain Res getting disabled are tunnellers. Just switch to Pop. -
@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039658#Comment_4039658
still flabbergasted that ppl still think PR is strong and/or OP
It is strong, it actually got stronger because of hook spawns were adjusted and scourge hooks were made less likely to spawn close to each other. Where before, you could figure out where scourges spawned and lead chase as far away from those hooks as possible. Nowadays, its rare to see someone get hooked for a first time and not trigger PR.
On top of that, the other reason PR is strong, is because it requires nothing and applied 20% for free, even if the generator is already regressing, even if it's a mobility killer. Imagine a survivor finishes a generator and gets healed. We already have a perk like that, Adrenaline and people still call it strong because its a free heal at the end of the game.
If PR worked in a way where it regressed ALL gens by 10% instead of 1 gen by 20%, it would be both a stronger perk while also less viable with DMS and less annoying to face. Or PR could work the way it does right now, but it removes the scourge hook so the same hook cannot be used multiple times unless you bring Jagged Compass.
Basically, Pop got nerfed because mobility killers spammed it and were the only ones actively enjoying the regression. Pain Res has the same issue. Its not strong enough for non-mobility, too strong for mobility. It needs changing -
@XDgamer018 said:
then we should also do something about hyperfocus+stakeout and other gen progression perks tbh
Nope, there's still a lot of gen regression perks that are viable, they are just less viable than Pain Res+Grim.
Gen progression perks in general barely impact the game. It's RARE that you lose a gen that you wouldnt already have lost. If you want to be pedantic, we should do something against Commodius Toolboxes and their event versions. Which, yes, we should. You can run 16 gen progression perks, and you still wouldnt match up against the impact Commodius with Wire spool.
And to combat 16 gen progression perks in terms of impact, you kinda just need Surge. With the exception of Hyperfocus+Stake Out, but that's only strong if you're against a killer with a MASSIVE terror radius, otherwise it requires you following the killer for 60 seconds to reduce your generator time from 90 seconds to 25 seconds with BNP and a Commodius(oh, look, there it is again).
So, that's 60 seconds+20 seconds making it 75 seconds.
You know what also gets you 75 seconds? Just using Commodius+BNP.
Seriously, gen progression perks are barely worth talking about. Gen times are barely worth talking about(except for Commodius). Most of the times gens go "too fast" is due to either insane survivor coordination(in which case, you would have lost anyway) or because the killer is lacking the ability to down survivors fast enough(also in which case, you should have lost, and no perks should buy you enough time to win there because that skews winrates, making the killer seem ok when in reality the killer is just too weak).
Both are not a problem with gen progression perks. -
@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039038#Comment_4039038
If you’re playing a weak killer at a high level vs high level survivors you’re not getting a win without tunneling unless they make a ton of mistakes and you make almost none.
But if you're a weak killer at high levels, then why do you care about winning? You literally have the best excuse for a loss, yet you choose to go for the gameplay that's unfun for everyone involved
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039040#Comment_4039040
Technically you still lose a chase, even if it sounds unpleasant. However in more global scope of match this small loses/wins simply turning to a trade of resources. I always treated this game like this no matter side I’m playing. That's what somehow making this game kinda variable
I don't know about DS stun per second idea tbh. I honestly would prefer to use DS as perk, but with static effect no matter on what gen my team on. Maybe stun can reset killer cooldown of power tho, like their power was used?
My mindset is that you want tunnelling to be as unattractive as possible. If everyone has basekit DS, then chasing someone who has not recently been hooked becomes more attractive to chase than tunnelling. The main reason tunnelling prior to the nerf was so unattractive, was because EVERYONE ran it. You would be lucky to find someone who didnt run it.
Considering DS is going to be (possibly temporary) a free for all perk, that might change up the tunnelling landscape a bit, but if the answer to combat tunnelling is that everyone runs DS, then maybe it should be basekit.
Right now, not all killers need gen regression to slow down gens, there are plenty of people who play through sheer pressure on survivors and barely run gen regression. There are still Huntresses and Nurses that only use aura perks because they are still effective enough to not require gen regression (Altho, new maps are rarely nice for Huntress) at all. Even if you somehow lose the ability of all equipped gen regression perks (because Ruin gets cleansed the first second of the game and everytime someone goes down, there is no scourge hook within reach), you can still put out enough pressure to win. It's not gonna be exactly easy, but you can still guarantee a kill, maybe even 2 if you prioritize properly.
Survivors dont really have the ability to prevent being tunnelled at all, they dont even have agency over their unhook. They cannot decline their unhook because the killer is too close and they know there are no pallets nearby. They still leave behind blood and scratchmarks, so even if they gain distance, the killer can still go for them no problem. And even if they do implement Elusive, that still wont be a deterrance for some. Crows still fly away, you still know the general direction they went in. Lockers would be really nice to use, but Lockers have mostly lost their use. Killer instinct gives them away, if they are injured they are still loud enough to be heard from quite some distance.
As for the stun per second, it just means that you get a 5 second stun at 5 gens, a 1 second stun at 1 gen, that way DS always has value when there are gens remaining even if you didnt get to use it yet. I do think a 4-5 second stun is far too long when there are only 2 gens remaining, but a 3-4 second stun is too short from the get-go. -
@Anniehere said:
I think this is an overreaction from the community.
There's a long lineup of licensed and original chapters planned for release over the next few years, and development isn't coming to a stop. Some decisions and factors are beyond BHVR control, and I don't think this has anything to do with the state of the game. I can imagine what it would feel like to lose my favorite licensed chapters, but we get to keep what we've already bought. If it were the other way around, I'd be furious.As a long time player who now only plays very occasionally due to recent decisions, a lot of those dscisions and factors were not beyond BHVR's control.
While I do believe Myers would likely be returning due to how profitable he was on DBD, I would be lying if I said DBD has been in worse states. We've had bad moments in the past that lasted longer than the current state, but back then there was always something good in return.
There have been multiple fixes surrounding hooks and unhooks over the years. Both for killers and survivors. Killers have gotten a basic attack upgrade so that survivors cannot unhook their teammate for effectively free. If only 1 survivor comes when a killer is there, they will always be able to hit the survivor twice. You need at least 2 survivors to unhook a teammate that's getting facecamped. For survivors, swivelhooks have been implemented so that killers cannot just stand there with no option to unhooking left. Basekit BT was implemented due to how much survivor gameplay relied on at least someone running BT to prevent a direct down after unhook. And more yet to come.
For gen regression, not much has been done basekit, and while there definitely needs to be a regression rework, there are literally enough perks to pick and choose from that matches your gameplay.
For slugging? You only really have Unbreakable, and Unbreakable has never been a good perk to pick. Even if you get slugged, you can just get slugged again relatively soon after, especially when facing a mobility killer. Exponential helps, but Exponential relies on RNG totems being good on top of the game being a game where Unbreakable is needed.
Slugging has needed an actual impactful update for YEARS now. Either perks that allow for pick-ups (Soul Guard is not really included because that relies on you being cursed with a hex, it doesnt matter if you see a totem burning, you have to be hexed, and the effect is gone if you remove the hex, which a random teammate is always going to do).
The least that was needed last march, was basekit tenacity (not the sound, but increased crawling speed and the ability to recover while crawling).
What DBD also needs is the ability to pick one-self up after some time. Not an arbitrary timelimit, but one that gets weaker over time because slugging is sometimes needed. Yet, the 2v1 should never turn into a free 4k just because gens are still running.
The simple solution to both is: Allow survivors who need help to pick themselves up at an UNFINISHED gen for free. Rework any perks that increase the ability to recover or self-pickup except for No Mither and suddenly, you have survivors needing to recover for at least 30 seconds, needing to crawl towards objectives that are shown to the killer by aura which can take significantly longer than 30 seconds, and bam, you fix basically all issues surrounding multiple people getting slugged while barely negatively impacting the game. Give certain abilities like Victor and Demon Rush a 10-15% reduction in self-recover speed and you should cover those too.
"But if I slug all 4 people I should win" Should you? I'd say hooking and sacrificing survivors is the path to a win. That has the exact same energy as "if the killer chases me for 8 minutes, I should win". Yet, all killer mains will retort to that with "your team should just do gens". If you have a problem with having to hook survivors to win the game, then you're not thinking of your opponents as humans. -
@tes said:
DS is time wasting pretty a lot. One stun giving like a whole new chance for chase and even stage. Two additional chases forced for killer, maybe it can be “solution to hardtunnel”, but def ignore and doesn’t count many other situations.
Limitations to one use more likely because 4 people can stack it in match. This perk already breaking basics principle of lose chase = lose life.
Thing is, you dont really lose chase when you get hooked. Is it really a lost chase if 3 gens are gone?
Once a killer chases, a down is effectively inevitable, meaning a hook is effectively inevitable.
The whole tunnel off hook breaks the basic principle of a 4v1. DS wouldnt be that powerful if you dont tunnel.
Personally, I've grown to the opinion of just reworking the perk, give basekit DS and let the stun last 1 second per gen remaining, disabling killer ability for 2 seconds per gen remaining. The second bit wont do much for killers like Trapper or Pig, but will do a lot for killers like Nurse and Blight. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4037815#Comment_4037815
Where is your info coming from on killers gaining MMR from bots?
Why should a survivor who is in the middle of dying not loose MMR? They lost.
What is your definition of agency then? If you can still act and participate, that's agency. Agency doesn't mean a path to a win, it's the ability to still act and make choices.
I had a pair of toxic flashlight users the other day who kept running to me to do saves on one another. Slugged them repeatedly because I wasn't trying to tunnel them out, just wanted them to stop. They were able to abandon at 4 gens up instead of just changing their behavior. Their bots continued the match in a more normal way. So the game let them act stupid and then freely leave their teammates behind, with no penalty, in a match that had barely started. That's an idiotic system.
And it not counting as a death, so what?
It's improtant because people use their personal stats as examples of their experiences, and to prove to others that they can do just fine. But if your 55% ER would be a 40% without the abandons, that's a problem. The personal info we're using to discuss the game is wrong.
Because that was the case back when DC's were introduced, I would need to find the VOD, but I remember it being like late 2022/early 2023. Mechanically, the killer could only be granted MMR on sacrifice/kill, not on DC. That was part of the reason why DBD mobile had DC's being replaced with bots, and why the main game took like 2 years after the introduction of MMR to add in bots.
And I would agree to flashlight, if not for the fact that you need angles, it has terrible addons and there is a perk that fully denies the ability to flashlight.
As for the survivor not losing MMR, thats mainly because killers can force a 2v1 to turn into a nearly guaranteed 4k. Why should the killer get that 4th kill basically for free and still gain MMR? Why should a survivor lose MMR when alternatives are impossible? Why should a survivor lose individual MMR because their teammates caused the situation to lose?
Killers and survivors are different. The average killrate is more than 2, meaning the average game, the killer gains mmr. So why should the killer gain free MMR on average? That's somewhat balanced out with the abandon option -
@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4037811#Comment_4037811
So you have no agency when you get picked up?
You have no agency when you are the last man in the trial while full health with both exit gates and hatch open?
Because you can abandon in these cases.
If the gate is open and all survivors are close to it why can´t the Killer leave the game?
The only thing that could happen is that a survivor messes up or gets cocky. But if we argue that way it could also happen that the Killer wants to pick up survivors if he 4 man slugs and one manages to wiggle out.
That leads to my question. Why is it so important for survivors that the Killer has to see them running out?
In both those cases, the abandon option has been unlocked through previous means:
1. you got picked up after the 3rd time you got slugged in a row, you got the option to abandon prior to that
2. you picked yourself up once after everyone who remains got downed onceIn the second aspect, you dont get the abandon option unless the last person remaining turned into a bot(in which, there is a glitch where a survivor escapes and gets turned into a bot, therefor unlocking abandon, but at that point, the gate is open already, abandoning would be the bad option)
Or both could be triggered because no gen has been completed in the past 10 minutes, in which case, the killer can abandon too.
You can only abandon in those cases due to other triggers. You could in theory have 4 survivors use plot twist at the start of the game with No Mither, and then those 4 survivors could abandon when all of them are finishing the final gen together. They got the abandon option and it doesnt go away after.
And once again, the issue there is that you cut the game short just to cut the game short. That's not what the abandon feature is for. The abandon feature is to prevent people from exitting the game for MINUTES, not seconds. Survivors who are all in the exitgate can be cleared within 10 seconds. It's annoying, but eh.
Survivors who are slugged over and over again have to wait up to 4 MINUTES if the killer doesnt hook them.
So that leads again to the question: how are they comparable? You're comparing a situation where it can last 240 seconds that happened commonly to the point that people were quitting, vs a situation that can last 15 seconds if they all have DH and are at full health, that happens so uncommonly that you are pretty much the only person complaining about it. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035385#Comment_4035385
And to be fair, so what? The game is literally going to end the same way for you at that point. Either way you will have the mori, the only difference is that the survivor isnt watching the mori with you
They aren't just skipping an animation though. It makes a difference internally. When you abandon, you don't get a death on your personal stats despite losing. As far as anyone can tell (based on the limited info we've been given) you also don't lose MMR, and the killer doesn't gain any from you. You've basically removed yourself from the match entirely and left a blank void behind. The function is quietly throwing matchmaking and data out of whack.
All survivor abandon options are because they remove player agency.
This isn't always true. I've had bots use Deliverance to hop off the hook or use Unbreakable to get up before I could hook them. Some people just can't be bothered to keep trying even when there are still options.
They pretty much fixed that MMR-wise. And even then, it only counts as a draw for the survivor. Aka, they dont lose MMR. The killer still gains MMR when they kill the bots.
And it not counting as a death, so what? Any DC counts as generally losing the game statistically. It doesnt count as a win, that matters more. Besides that, dying doesnt mean you lose. You can die but the game ends in 3 people escaping, that's still a win overall (and honestly, if thats the end result, the dead survivor should gain MMR imo, just like a survivor who escapes through the gate but let all their teammates behind for dead should lose MMR, meaning Hatch is more enticing MMR-wise).
As for the second scenario, in most cases, they would have DC'd prior. And even then, you cant exactly hold everyone else hostage because 1 person brought a perk that could in continue the game. Otherwise, the killer shouldnt get the abandon option whenever they bring an aura perk. -
@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035385#Comment_4035385
As I said. Give the Killer the abbandon mechanic when all remaining survivors are behind the Exit Gate. You can still decide as Killer if you want to try to go for the Kill or not. So no the argument that some Killers could do something doesn´t fit here because the Killer has to decide.
If you have red my arguments than you should know that if the last Survivor got unhooked in endgame the Killer could not abbandon in this Situation. He can only do it if all survivors are in the safe zone behind the gate. If they are out of this zone it is fair game for Killers but when you are at the gate spamming emote to fall safely out of the gate where is the point?
To be fair this argument is funny at all. "But you can still kill me so you shold endure toxicity" but if the Killer tunnels someone out survivors go "Why would you kill me thats toxic"
And just repeating myself I haven´t seen someone answering my question. "Why is it important for Survivors that the Killer hits them out?"
The "funny" part wasnt about toxicity, it was about agency. The killer still has agency, despite toxicity or not. The survivor doesnt have agency. The abandon option doesnt show up if you're being tunnelled, it shows up if you've been downed 3 times without being hooked. It doesnt show up if you're slugged for 3 minutes, its when everyone is slugged.
The abandon option isnt about toxicity, its about agency. And the killer ALWAYS has agency. That's why pretty much the only killer specific abandon option happens when no gen has been finished for 10 minutes in a row.
A killer, on paper, could turn any game around in the matter of 2 minutes by mere basekit mechanics, no matter the state of the game. A survivor, on paper, cant do anything when slugged through basekit mechanics.
Survivors dont get the abandon option when they get mori'd, they get it earlier through other conditions. A survivor who gets downed when any other teammate has escaped never gets the option to abandon. So why is it important for the survivor to stay for the mori? If survivors got the abandon option for the mori, you would have a point. But there is no killer scenario that's comparable to all survivors being slugged. There is no killer scenario that's comparable to being slugged, picked up by teammates, slugged again right after, picked up again, then slugged again.
Mechanically, there wont be a difference if they get swapped by bots at that point. Whereas with the killer, yeah, that last 10 seconds to hit survivors out is annoying, but does it really require an abandon feature?
I rather have a gateblocker basekit that activates the moment the killer enters the exitgate, lasts for 5 seconds+a personal blocker depending on how long someone has stood in the gate with a 1:1.2 ratio. That way, if someone stood in the gate for 10 seconds, they will be blocked for 17 seconds. -
@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035222#Comment_4035222
So I make it more even.
Why can a Survivor Skip the Mori animation with abbandon. It is just another way for the Killer to force you out of the gate.
If Survivors are willing to wait 2 Minutes in the Exit gate and demand the Killer to hit each one twice before they crawl out they can watch the short clip of a mori or not?
The survivor can skip the mori because the survivor already had the abandon option for a long time already. Mechanically speaking, its quite hard to disable the abandon ability. It's not suddenly the survivor gaining the abandon feature. And to be fair, so what? The game is literally going to end the same way for you at that point. Either way you will have the mori, the only difference is that the survivor isnt watching the mori with you (in which case, why do you care that the other player has to watch your mori?)
For killers, the moment survivors are able to unhook a teammate in the case the killer is camping his 1k, they are going to abandon, despite it being possible to still turn the situation around and gain a kill (survivors dont always pick the best pathing, I've seen many people die after we managed to unhook someone and were in a situation to basically guarantee a 4 man out, yet someone decided dropping a weak pallet and vaulting it twice was a good idea, they cant abandon when the other 3 survivors escape normally).
So at what point do you introduce the abandon feature for killers without effectively removing 10-20% of the game? With survivors, most abandon options dont matter. You would always pick them up for hooks anyway, or you would always bleed them out. You would always have to mori. And even in the few other cases where abandon appears when IMO it shouldnt but because there are edge cases, the survivor gets replaced with a bot and you still get to play and none of the gameplay gets removed or impacted much untill 2+ survivors were able to abandon (in fact, the bots can be harder to deal with than the real players)
I can understand survivors camping in the exitgate, but then at what point do you introduce it? They could be healing inside the exitgate for a multitude of reasons, perhaps going back to rescue their teammate on a hook, but you're a killer who does have the capability to down survivors if they are slightly too far removed from the exitgate. And even if they do manage to implement that, the same survivors who now edgecamp the exitgate, would just slightly stand outside the exitgate so you cant abandon.
It is functionally impossible to add in an abandon feature for the killer on top of the current ones, because the killer always has agency. All survivor abandon options are because they remove player agency. Even the slugging 3 times exists, because basekit endurance doesnt exist on pickup. -
@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4017027#Comment_4017027
It wouldn't make much sense. Idea behind this rework is to make each shot more meaningfull while giving more option to last in less safer areas.
He is always intended to return to 110%, the main reason he is 115% right now is because he doesnt have the kit to be effective at 110%. And no, missing a shot doesnt mean anything except losing the newly applied haste status.
And since you get haste, it means that each consequtive hit gets easier to pull off too. You just no longer want to spam, which is an issue in his current kit.
Right now, Trickster is basically "ghostface, but instead of exposing you, you lose a healthstate", and that's never interesting, especially since maps do not increase or decrease line of sight blockers based on which killer is being played./This idea intends to remove the "he sees you, you lose a healthstate" aspect, and focus more on "if you hit the survivor a lot, you get haste which you can use to close gaps, if they manage to dodge, they are able to regain some distance". There would be more of a back and forth, instead of just trying to avoid being seen while pre-dropping pallets 12 meters ahead so he doesnt get a free hit on you.
-
@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/458880/trickster-rework-suggestion
Trickster is already 115%. Also this is not a rework, the functionality of the killer is the same, their power merely has an additional feature.
You didnt read it, the post literally states "I actually think it would be interesting if Trickster, as 110% killer, would gain 1% haste for each consecutive hit" followed by "he would be able to be effectively a 115% killer once he has used his blades to injure a survivor"
Meaning that Trickster would be turned back to 110%, but its quite easy to stack haste to be at 115% or higher once you use your blades to injure a survivor.
Also, this is a suggestion for Trickster's rework. BHVR is already busy with making a rework, this suggestion is assuming his current feature stays relatively the same, that he will be reverted to 110%(he is a ranged killer after all), and to make his basekit feature work on top of whatever they will change.
It could be that main event will get deleted, it could be that his blade mechanic will get a different purpose, perhaps it can only deepwound and no longer down, perhaps it gives aura reading, haste and exposed instead of injuring. We dont know how far BHVR is with the rework, so it doesnt make sense to suggest a rework from scratch. -
@Elan said:
I feel the current main event is too spammable within chases, plus you can run add ons to prolonge it. Here's my idea:
- Decrease movement speed to 110 %
- Decrease laceration meter to 6 blades
- Main event can be triggered once you land 24 blades and can be manually activated, no longer has window to be used.
- Knives bounce of walls once by base.
- Increase time it takes for laceration meter to decay to 20s
- When main event naturally ends, blades are refilled without reloading.
I wouldnt have both 6 blades and bounce as basekit, but I do believe main event should have bounce as basekit.
-
@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016344#Comment_4016344
You go into the void when you know the killer is occupied, not just randomly. Ruin is a hex and can be cleansed.
I'm not sure if people just really lack any sort of game sense or what. It's like solving the cube; do it when the killer is doing something else.
Plenty of times killers will actively drop chase to go into the void if they want to take advantage of slugging there.
And the fact that it's a hex or not, does not change the fact that it actively counters an event.
I have never seen this many Ruin's in a row since 2022. Like, imagine the haunted ghost wouldnt be able to injure a survivor because they are running inside Circle of Healing. "It's just a boon, you can snuff it". The problem is that a perk actively counters an event mechanic to the point of uselessness. Every single game would have Circle of Healing if it would counter the damage of the haunted ghost and you know it. -
I do consider it a bug, because last year the event dowsing rod was common, last year, the halloween items were common, in fact, the halloween related addons are still common:
Since those have kept their common rarity, and the offerings+items are the only things that changed their rarity, I consider it a bug.
Every single other event item or offering is still listed as common. Its literally just the Arcane Dowsing Rod, the All Hallow's Eve Lunchbox and the Will O' Wisp that have changed their rarity from common to rare/very rare.
Event offerings are consistent, Dowsing Rod is the inconsistent one -
The main problem is that survivors now have 0 reasons to go into the void. The killer gets a notification, when you enter, they know when you leave, there are 0 usable tiles in there and if the killer slugs you, they can decide to keep you slugged as you are now locked into the void.
I actually have a bubba who waited 4 minutes to just slug me to death in the void. I have no reasons to ever go into the void.
The crystals repair gens for you? So what? Every killer seems to run Ruin so that fully gets countered. If those Crystals turned their progression into BNP-like progress, it would actually be worth going, but Ruin fully removing any progress at the cost of being slugged in the void? No thank you. -
@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015653#Comment_4015653
It's been a couple of years since I last played the event so I don't exactly recall what the middle pillar was like. What made it so balanced landing's use was considered abuse and not just using the perk for the purpose it was designed for? Was it just because it would allow people to get to a portal? The killer could just follow them, yeah?
It seems like they swung way too much in the other direction making it so chases practically guarantee a down instead of chases potentially being extended.
You could very easily trigger balanced landing there, so you would get injured, enter the portal, pop Syringe(which is why broken was added), trigger BL and rush out somewhere else.
It was basically baiting the killer for as long as you can, then heal up and gain MASSIVE distance. Guaranteed, unless you faced Plague.
So that did need alteration at the time. But right now, they can fully revert the exhausted and broken effects, and nothing would change. In fact, even if you manage to pull off the same strat, there are now Haunts in the void that can and will slow you down if you get too close as survivor. -
@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015632#Comment_4015632
The overtuned killers don't care about pallets anyway. Crotus prenn does not need three interconnected pallet loops that go into shack. I made a Springtrap DC on there the other day and I'm hardly the best survivor in the world.
Also: hot take? Haddonfield did not need that many pallets added or in the middle of the street. The clear sightlines permit prerunning and the houses are insanely strong loops anyway due to the vault locations in them.
Oh no, I am not saying the maps need it, all I am saying is that it's not as bad. It's also generally been the case that the killers you face as survivor are progressively worse. And thats not saying killers are getting worse, its MMR being skewed. It's rare that I encounter a killer who gets a hit due to a mindgame. Its almost always due to either a lack of pallets in the area or because eventually they get a hit anyway. Brute forcing normally shouldnt be too beneficial for you unless you know you cant outplay the survivor at the tile, yet, brute forcing seems to be more and more common. I am a hardcore advocate for implementing the anti-tunnel and anti-slug patch with a hard MMR reset. Have it be implemented, let there be chaos for 3 months, and let it settle naturally before tweaking the numbers. That way, killers who have relied on tunnelling and slugging (and therefor "need" to slug and tunnel harder every patch, despite survivors not getting buffs and killers not getting nerfs, that only means killers have been increasing MMR beyond their skillcap and/or survivors have been unfairly losing MMR when they shouldnt)
and I would go into your hottake, but this is a feedback section, not a discussion section.
All I am saying, pallet fix would probably come with the anti-tunnel/slug patch, and that patch should come with a hard MMR reset. -
@MDRSan said:
I thought I remembered past haunted events being more enjoyable than this. I was actually looking forward to this event.
The void is a death trap and fog crystals aren't worth a fraction of the risk or effort required to get them - they don't even have fun, novel, but useless mechanics. They're just a thing that exists.
Killers get an audio notification and an icon showing them who is currently in the void. It's like ringing a dinner bell. They're not even risking you maybe not being in there anymore because they have real time info on who is in the void.
The way the void's laid out, if a killer gets a hit on a survivor and they aren't already near an exit portal (or they're already wounded) then the survivor is going to go down in there unless the killer really misplays. I've experienced this personally as a killer - every time I've found the person in there, they've gone down in there (unless I was playing friendly and just getting some BPs for depositing void energy).
The risk to not being able to complete the killer quest to hook 15 survivors in the void isn't that you might not be able to down them there, it's that survivors will stop going before you can get your 15 because it's obviously a death trap.
The last iteration was almost perfect, good enough looping where a survivor could mindgame and still buy time, but not so much that it would cost the killer time. The killer would want 3 portals open, survivors would want ALL portals open (which, costs time). The killer item was stronger than the survivor item already as you could effectively instadown if timed right.
Legitimately the only problem was that you could slug in the void even stronger than outside the void. This void is one you only want to use if you do challenges or know the killer is tunnelling to close distance. In fact, right now I dont even know why survivors are exhausted. The reason exhaustion needed to be added was Balanced Landing, but since the center piece is gone, there is nothing you can do to "abuse" exhaustion perks there. -
@I_Cant_Loop said:
Because previous versions of the void were super annoying safe havens for survivors that wasted way too much killer time. Any time a survivor got injured, they would just flee to the void and the killer could either go choose to waste a bunch of time trying to chase and down them in the void or would have to just let them go, giving the survivor and opportunity to teleport and reset which also wasted killer time because now they spent that time chasing and injuring a survivor with no progress towards their goal. At least now if a survivor tries to flee to the portal after getting injured, the killer doesn’t have to waste as much time trying to down them in the portal.
Few things tho:
1. killers transport faster, so an injured survivor jumping into the void generally loses distance, especially if they used both teleports
2. the void didnt have good loops
3. survivors are broken when injured, and exhausted always, which was because of Balanced Landing being good.
The last iteration of the void was actually killer sided already, the only thing that needed fixing was slugging.
Aka, your conclusion was about the void back in 2023, I am talking about the void from 2024, which was definitely killer sided and basically a free hit if you followed someone in. -
@Ohyakno said:
It's making my games as legion absolutely miserable. It's a wild overcorrection.
agreed, but its fine for now. It's been more extreme for the past 6 months in the other aspect, not counting the fact that other killers have been overtuned and made playing against them a living hell on a lot of maps.
Is it overtuned? yeah, but wild overcorrection? I've only seen 2 maps that are wildly overcorrected. Most maps literally need pallet spawns to be reduced by 1 or 2.
Just as a comparison, the maps I am talking about before the chance were missing at least 6 pallets each. And that's assuming least amount of pallets needed. So imagine lowest pallet spread possible by RNG, then remove 6 on top of that.
Right now, most maps basically can be assumed they have (close to) the maximum amount of pallets every single time, which is overtuned, but not by much. Right now you're basically dealing with above average pallet spread, which is annoying to deal with every single game, but its doable.
(quick note, not to start a discussion, just to imply that this isnt going to be a high priority case for DBD devs for a bit, I would expect it to be tweaked the next time they introduce the anti-tunnel/slug patch) -
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4013666#Comment_4013666
I see it both ways some games as killer I would get one or two more kills if I had basekit unique hook reward and other when survivors pop 3 gens and I get first hook when they start working on last two at this point it would be gg with antitunnel changes because your only way to get back up is tunneling and other unfun strategies but if these changes went live then I could just stand in corner and wait for next, Iget it some survivors would like it and shame the killer more than now and other wiould protest that they didnt get chased enough and these changes are bad for them, its hard to tell till we see what devs cooked and served us in live version.
To be fair, at that point, does it REALLY matter if you lose a game? Survivors are basically told to deal with it right now if someone happens to die at 4 gens, despite it being fully out of their control due to a tunnelling Blight with Pain Res, DMS, Pop and survivors not having comms. All because in theory survivors would be stronger if all 4 are on comms and bring full meta perks with the strongest items if they face a Nurse with full meta perks and the strongest addons.
If you lose 3 gens and survivors are actively working on the last 2 gens before you got 1 single hook, what difference will the anti-tunnel patch do? It legit doesnt matter much if the gens get blocked or not, because either you get the kill and survivors have 1 gen remaining and 0 hooks across the final 3, or you would have lost all the gens already.
In fact, focussing on tunnelling out that 1 survivor is arguably the worst thing you can do against the majority of survivors you encounter. At that point you need to pressure gens, because gens didnt recieve any pressure. That is the point where you want to down a survivor and chase someone else while the 3rd is unhooking the survivor you just hooked. So what if they can pick themselves up, thats 90 seconds from now, the game is turned around by you putting gen progression to a halt, not by rushing out the one survivor who has put 0 pressure on gens so far. -
@Dreigonix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4013666#Comment_4013666
I would have been fine with the anti-tunnel measures, but only if they reduced the threshold from 6 hooks to 4.
Nah, in fact, I would up it to 7 or 8, but it should reduce by 1 for each generator finished. 4 still means you can tunnel at 5 gens, 7 means you never ever want to tunnel at 5 gens unless you want to risk losing gen slowdown.
Then at 2 gens left, you would only need 4 hooks total. -
@Dreigonix said:
I'm fine with reducing start-of-match dead zones so survivors feel less helpless, but ONLY if we get MAJOR killer buffs (for everyone except the Big Five— Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Ken, and Krasue) so that killers do not feel as helpless as they currently do.
And this is why I am honestly all for the anti-slug anti-tunnel patch as they presented. It would reduce the strength of all killers, including the big 5, and from that point you start buffing all other killers.
I still have to encounter or play a killer where I would be like "if the patch was implemented, I would have lost". In fact, on many of them I would have been able to win. There were some edge cases where it might have screwed someone over, but that was maybe 1 game every 30 games played. That's not that many, considering killers win about 25 out of 30 games -
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012980#Comment_4012980
Current pallet spread?
Generally? Yes
There are some maps where its overtuned, but we've had 6 months of maps where there were basically no pallets at all. -
@AGM said:
The baffling thing is that they spent so much time reducing the number of pallets across many maps over the course of years to get them in a more balanced state, and decided to undo all that work in a single update.
They could have just implemented this on Haddonfield and Forgotten Ruins (maps that actually needed this), and then updated Garden of Joy to be less survivor sided, but nope!
Do they think 1v4 will be more fun if it has as many pallets as 2v8? God forbid survivors have to use their limited resources wisely or something.🙄
The problem was that many older maps just didnt have ANY pallets. And really, the pallet spread is fine. Pallet count doesnt matter much if most pallets are unsafe pallets.
There are more pallets per map, but on average, the average strength of pallets on map has been reduced still. You only "need" to break like 7 pallets per game. That used to be 12. Pallet count used to be 14-16. With double pallet tiles, that count is close to 18-20. So despite total pallet count increasing by 6, the amount you need to kick has been nearly halved. -
@UnicornMedal said:
I think I missed my opportunity to post the Michael Jackson popcorn gif. 😣
You can still add it in, I will see it 👉️👈️
-
@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004198#Comment_4004198
One thing that bothered the most about the PTB discussion is how some people just minimized the anti-slug system impact, since it was as strong as the anti-tunnel system was - an even stronger in some scenarios.
If they gave killer some form of compensation for alternating hooks instead of tunneling, they should really give something to make the act of hooking easier and faster since slugging will be one of the worst decisions a killer can take.
But they did give compensation:
Hooking survivors non-sequentially (aka, you dont hook the same survivor), you would gain 10% damage boost on your next gen kick interaction and 10% haste after hooking basekit. This would also give you basekit BBQ.
Hooking all survivors once gave you a permanent 5% damage boost on kicking gens in general.
There was also something about seeing the aura of the person with the least amount of chasetime, but I forgot what.
Those are quite significant. You basically get basekit pop without a timer. You can still go for survivor A, survivor B, survivor A, then survivor B and then survivor A again. Which would block gens after the kill in the update version (which, should be tied to a killer. I definitely want Nurse and Blight to have 6 hooks before they kill, but current Trapper should be able to kill without gens getting blocked at 4 hooks).
The update needed tweaks 100%, but the core idea behind it was genuinely something DBD needs long term. Personally, I would add a generator intensity of the last generator you damaged on non-sequential hooks. Aka, if the last hook triggered pain res, the next hook will show you how far the gen progression is of that generator. That way, you can see if you can still interrupt it if they continued it, if its effectively still regressing or if its not worth the interrupt because its at 95% and the survivor on it is gonna finish it before you get close, so you can put your effort on another survivor instead. -
@xPrinceHarlequinx said:
using the same logic yall could also ask for the devs to buff the killer role overall, and then survivors can deal with being miserable for a few months until they get it to a point where the anti slug or antitunnel won’t obliterate the role overall.
See how dumb that sounds?
What? My post is about implementing a reduced version for the time being and then tweak it. How is that buffing survivor overall? It's not even buffing survivors, its just nerfing 2 killer strategies that are actively skewing killer MMR into a situation where they claim they are "forced" to tunnel and slug, despite killer being easier than ever, despite killrates being at an all time high. So why do killers feel forced to tunnel and slug? Because they face survivors that are out of their league. Simple as that.
Lets put it like this, lets say survivors could, at one point in the game, revive all survivors who didnt leave the lobby yet, after all generators are finished. That would massively increase escaperate. MMR speaking, that would also massively raise their MMR. After 3 months, they feel forced to rush gens because its the only way for 3 survivors to escape and will demand gen progression perks to be buffed to compensate because they are forced to rush. Without the progression buffs, they can no longer finish all gens in time to revive everyone. But when you look at it logically, they simply are facing killers they cannot handle, because their MMR got boosted by a mechanic that revives everyone despite them losing.
That has been the status quo for killers for 2 years now. They can rush a kill and slug to win a match that they, by all means, should have lost. That skews MMR, they will have more games they should realistically lose, which they can then win by the skin of their teeth because they got lucky and got a kill at 3 gens and then slugged once 1 gen was remaining. Untill their winrate drops to 60%. -
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006482#Comment_4006482
im not sure where you get that from lol. mmr criteria? your own personal win/loss opinion? mmr counts hatch as a draw not a loss. mmr is counted for individual survivor not as a team. if 1 survivor escapes out the gate then "the team" technically lost, killer gains mmr but that 1 survivor that escaped out the gates also won and gets mmr gain. i have never heard anything stating that mmr is gained as a team as a whole. if this is the case i would be interested in seeing the evidence to support it. last i saw mmr was worked out on a 1 v 1 v 1 v 1 v 1 basis. aside from mmr because who really cares about an invisible number, the "win criteria is dependant on the individual imo. if a killer feels anything less than 4k is a lose then 4k is their win criteria. some killers consider 2 or 3k a win. as survivor my win criteria is ESCAPE via any means necessary. when i get hatch i ascape and the killer is denied 4k. thats a win for me even if mmr considers it a draw. certainly not a loss.
MMR works in a way that if you are the only one who escapes, you recieve less MMR than if the whole team escapes.
Same is true if you're the only one to die, you will lose less MMR than if the whole team dies.
And no, you do not personally get to decide what is considered a win, and then demand balancing around your definition. You can decide for yourself "I consider this a win" and "I consider this a loss". But if you're like "why do survivors get a win option because I consider hatch escape a win, but killer doesnt get a win option because I consider a guaranteed 1k a loss", despite them basically being equals long term. In that case I could be like "I got 0 hooks, 0 kills, but survivors didnt grab the item from the basement, I consider that a win" and then demand changes in balancing when survivors manage to grab the item from the basement chest.
You're basically saying your whole argument is moot, because it relies on your personal definitions. Not actual things applied in the game. What matters there is that your MMR raises significantly more if you force 4k's by slugging to deny hatch, and that affects you negatively because you get to face more and more players that are better than you faster and "forces" you to tunnel and slug even more. Survivors who escape through hatch, dont have their MMR rise at all. They could go 1000 matches in a row and get hatch, and despite "winning" by your definition, they will face the same caliber of killers. Yet if you tunnel and slug hardcore to the point that you start facing people who are more and more cooperative and have communication, why demand a nerf to their aspects, when you've been brute forcing more kills than you should have?
Its why I am 100% on the point where killer mains have an ego that mix players and survivor mains dont have. And in 90% of the cases, if I face a mix player on my MMR, they are 10x better than the average killer main on my MMR, because the mix players know its actually a good thing to lose some games. -
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006454#Comment_4006454
i can axplain very easily how to win that match, i have won many matches like that. its called hatch… thats my point. as survivor the killer can wipe out my whole team at 5 gens. There is a reason i go into every match with hatch offering lol. chances are my team will do awful or go next, killer won…but i can still win via hatch. This scenario doesnt exist for killer, if survivors do all gens and killers get 0 hooks, survivors have won, killer cant pick up a 3 or 4k from nothing (maybe with noed).
Im aware good loops dont exist because now the game has bloodlust and vault blocking. remove them and see what happens, loops that are currently not god loops suddenly become god loops. there is a reason why bloodlust and vault blocking became basekit….to eliminate god loops.
as already stated the need to tunnel applies to top swf teams with meta perks, coms, perk synergy, offering synergy. do killers need to tunnel v solo uncoordinated teams? no, i dont think so but the killer doesnt know they are solo or swf so more often than not the killer will assume they are swf and play accordingly which results in soloq getting demolished.
If your suggesting killers boosted their mmr by tunneling, then the same must be applied to swf teams that boost their mmr by using coms and playing as part of well coordinated team. I have played against many survivors that are usually in swf and when they play solo they openly admit "never playing soloq again". Why? because they have boosted their mmr by having swf advantages that or not available to them in solo? it works both ways. killers that lose when they try to spread hooks can say the same, "never spreading hooks again".
Hatch doesnt allow 3 survivors to escape. Survivors win when 3 survivors escape.
Killers with 0 hooks and 5 gens gone can still basically guarantee 1 kill. Just like survivors can still basically guarantee 1 escape.
Why should the killer be able to get a 4k, but survivors not 3 people out?
You dont win if you get hatch. You still overall lose. 3 survivors are dead. The real win is still escaping through gate.
And no, SWF teams dont boost their mmr through comms and playing part of coordinated teams the way killers do. I am not going to explain how both sides gain MMR, because survivor MMR gain isnt as consistent. Escaperates are below 50%. Meaning that on average, if you gain 100 MMR by having a 4 man escape, and then lose 50 MMR because you get tunnelled out first, despite being on comms, you still only gain 50 MMR per match. While as a killer, if you slug for a 4k every match, you could go from 80 MMR gain to 100 MMR gain. That first kill out, even if by sheer luck, increases your chances on a 3k significantly, which can then lead you to slugging for a 4k.
If people arent on comms, 3k's arent going to be uncommon. With the average killrate being very close to a 3k, that means on average, killers gain about 80 MMR in that example. And with a 50% escaperate, you would only gain 50MMR per match. Ofcourse those numbers are smaller and more nuanced than that, but its much easier to "abuse" a tunnel than it is to "abuse" 4 man on comms. Those 4 people actually need to be good to achieve that and combined be better than the killer. While tunnelling when facing any non 4 man swf on comms only requires you to find a survivor who isnt that good to snowball into a 3k. -
@AtlasShark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004140#Comment_4004140
Frankly, the only reason most Killers tunnel is because the Survivor team misplays and grants them the opportunity to. If the most effective way to play is handed to them, why shouldn't they take it y'know?
I don't blame Survivors for using infinite loops like they did back in the day, nor for abusing currently exceptionally strong loops. That's their prerogative. But again, the mechanic exists for the Killers (characters, not players) who cannot adequately handle it and maintaining the power role is key to the game's flow. And there are several meta-viable options for keeping the Killer from exploiting a particular Survivor too much. Mostly this is in the form of perks (Unbreakable, DS, OtR, Shoulder the Burden, etc.) but also exists in the form of teamplay. Taking protection hits, flashlights, flashbangs, cranking gens, threatening pallet saves, etc. These are all methods in which Survivors can curb the impact of the Killer exploiting that one Survivor. The only situation in which a Survivor is effectively helpless in the situation is if there's little to no teamplay on the Survivor team and they're paying the opportunity cost of not taking preventative perks. Which feels bad, sure. But it's a confluence of factors that all need to be taken into consideration.
That's what Hag wants to do. Good Survivor teams do not let Hag do what she wants to do. If you haven't experienced the abject misery of having your Killer kit fully exploited by two Survivors while the others do gens then I envy you, truly.
Again, Bloodlust exists to alleviate pain points for specific Killers (as well as future-proofing the game for future loops). Let's swap examples. The Oni does not have a power that deals with loops until he has earned it via landing an M1. Often he has to rely on Bloodlust in order to obtain that hit because there just exist some loops that are too strong for him to reasonably deal with otherwise. He can't effectively switch targets, because he has a regular Terror Radius and good Survivors will pre-run him all day long. Straight up, he has no option to deal with it until he's already landed the M1.
I think your definition of "second chance" is far too broad. In fact, I think it would be less of a stretch to say that a Survivor getting healed is giving them a second chance as they can now take another hit. Unhooking a Survivor? That's a second chance. They already lost their chase they should be dead. etc. It's an extremely narrow way to view the game in a way purposefully skewed to your, seemingly, preferred role.
Dead Dawg is widely considered to have one of the best main buildings in the game, alongside Garden of Joy. I am specifically referencing these loops as problematic because Survivors worth their salt will beeline to these loops in times of need. The maps as wholes are not being considered because we're talking about how Bloodlust interacts with problematic loops.
Survivor is balanced around teamplay and some level of coordination. It is not the Killer's fault that the Survivor team is not coordinated enough to orchestrate an unhook maneuver using that classic pincer style. Again, I also think that your definition of "second chance" is off, and should be something you personally revisit.
Either side can win while at a disadvantage, as is the nature of a tug-of-war style game flow. I don't really see where you're going with that honestly. Seems like kind of a silly extension to a silly rant.
The basekit buffs for Killers are their own can of worms, primarily because they don't benefit Killers equally and are not genuinely exploitable like the anti-tunnel and anti-slug mechanics were. They just weren't a good solution to the issue.
The Killers who are most negatively impacted would be, The Twins, The Oni, The Onryo, The Pig, The Trapper, and The Hag. The first two are fairly obvious as they're the Killers that slug as a function of their power (they aren't alone in this. For example, The Knight occasionally slugs as a function of his power and could be specifically negatively affected as well). The next two have alternate kill mechanics that do not rely on hook stages, with The Pig's being something that the Survivor is ultimately in control of rather than the Killer. These obviously have issues. The last two have powers that are reliant on Survivor mistakes, making inadvertent tunneling something that can just occur from normal gameplay. In fact, the proposed mechanics actually made the last two pretty abusable. Take this scenario I played out in the PTB 9.2.0 for example. Playing the game as The Hag and hooked three Survivors once each. My fourth hook was on one of the first two Survivors I had hooked previously with two gens left. Mind you, I'm playing the game as the Survivors wish and spreading hooks fairly evenly. That Survivor, knowing that if I kill him I am basically guaranteed to lose the game, proceeds to just run through all my traps after getting unhooked. If I kill him I am limited to 1k, maybe 2k if I play it right because of the gen bonus speed and no regression. Killing him is off the table. If I slug him, he will either get up on his own after 90 seconds or, more likely based on how the team was playing, will pick him up while I try to reset web and he'll do it again. Slugging is off the table. The Survivor has exploited the mechanics to force me to either settle for a 1-2k, or play without traps until I get another hook on someone else as a powerless 110% Killer. The impact of these changes reaches far beyond just The Twins, and it's unrealistic to say we should rework all six of these Killers likely months (if not years knowing BHVR) after pushing changes that either kneecap them or can be exploited and weaponized against them. It's just not how the game should be designed or balanced.
These anti-slug and anti-tunnel mechanics just were not healthy for the game in the state they were presented to us. Instead of complaining about how they weren't implemented, it is far more beneficial to talk about how they could be altered to make them a healthy change to the game.
I do not care about MMR. I also know that the game is balanced in such a way that extremely skilled and coordinated Survivor teams stomp even Killers who do tunnel and slug. At some point you have to realize that these mechanics are balanced, and even designed around, in DbD. The changes presented in the PTB 9.2.0 didn't really take that into consideration, which is why they failed phenomenally.
"Frankly, the only reason most Killers tunnel is because the Survivor team misplays and grants them the opportunity to. If the most effective way to play is handed to them, why shouldn't they take it y'know?"
Frankly, the only reason survivors rushed gens in the past, was because killers misplayed and gave them the oppertunity to. If the most effective way to play is handed to them, why shouldnt they take it y'know?
BASEKIT countermeasures implemented since then:
Basekit 5% damage
Survivors need to repair at least 5% before the generator stops regressing(no more gen tapping)
Gens went from 70 seconds to 80 seconds, and 2 years later from 80 seconds to 90 seconds
Reduced/removed tall grass so survivors have a harder time hiding near gens
Reduced the strength of pallets around gens
Chase related interactions have been sped up by 10%
And that's just 2020-2025.
Things that have been added to combat the increase of tunnelling and slugging:
HUD update to show recovery status
Basekit BT(which is nice to have, but its just a 10 second timer)
That's it. -
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004171#Comment_4004171
But it wasn’t a small chance. Survivors zoomed so quickly while slugged, that if a killer was forced to slug a survivor to chase a teammate, there was a big chance the slugged survivor would be long gone by the time the killer got back.
And the fact that Deerstalker got reworked, showed that BHVR wanted slugged survivors to be extremely difficult to find, which means killers would be punished for any slugging at all, even if the survivors forced the killer to slug.
survivors zooming while slugged was a PTB specific bug tho. There was no cap on the speed increase.
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@ChurchofPig said:
This entire post completely waters down the issues with the changes that they made. Also you totally made up how long it is until they test it again, they did not specify how long it was going to be. Though honestly, if you really need a long break from dbd just because a change isn't going live because it was bad for the game, then maybe you should take a break whether or not this is rage bait or real.
Because there legit werent that many long term issues. And I got 3 months, because that's how long it takes for a big patch to come out. This isnt going to be a hotfix update. This is either going to be a chapter or a mid-chapter release. Which is 3 months.
I work in IT, if something is this big, it will be attached to a release. The only time something like this will be implemented between releases is if it ABSOLUTELY has to be released. And despite player frustrations, it isnt an emergency release. Hence, earliest date it will be released is the next mid-chapter.
And I dont need a break from DBD because a change isnt going live. I need a break because every single killer I face will take advantage of there not being protective measures against basekit slugging or tunnelling.
As for most "issues", a lot of those werent even going to be issues due to the basekit generator changes. A 5% permanent damage boost on gen kicks if you hook everyone once. A 10% damage poost on gen kicks if you dont tunnel (just this change alone slows down gens a lot). A 10% hasteboost (which should last untill the next time you damage a survivor rather than a time limit). Free basekit BBQ so you know where to go too. The legit main issue was generators getting blocked if you killed someone before having 6 hooks in total. Which IMO should be killer dependend and requires some tweaks.
Were there going to be issues? Yeah, sure, there will ALWAYS be issues if you make basekit changes. But other than generators getting blocked, they wouldnt be exactly gamebreaking changes.
Again, I am still also advocating for an MMR reset after these changes. A lot of killer mains are facing survivors they shouldnt face because they "abused" the lack of anti-slug and anti-tunnel. They "abused" hatch prevention. Not neccesarily knowingly, but it is what got them against players that were even better, meaning they needed to rely on that even more to win games.
I am actually convinced that if the changes were released as the PTB was, together with a hard MMR reset, that no one would have had a hard time. -
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004010#Comment_4004010
ok so killer has 0 hooks, all gens are done, all survivors at full health. can you explain to me how a killer can win that match other than survivors simply allowing the killer to kill them?
As for hatch, many people have openly said they dont care about MMR, its an invisible number. people care about escapes and is seen by majority of players as a win for that survivor that gets the hatch. it rewards BP too. Change the hatch to a sacrifice pit where survivors jump in and they kill themselves….see how many people use it, not many im betting.
Either your new to the game or just flat out being ignorant regarding the god loops. many still exist, even the shack can be used as a god loop v killer with no anti loop and no mobility. They are just not considered "god loops" any more because they now have bloodlust and vault blocking. its only recently they tried removing a god loop from badham map where players could infinitely loop a building and jumping through a window without ever triggering chase so bloodlust didnt trigger.
They removed self unhook because people abused it as a means to go next, but people can still use an offering to gain this 2nd chance back which effects the WHOLE team not just 1 person.
All of this is pointless anyway because comparing kill to survivor is a futile effort, killers can kill, survivors cant. there will be differences between the role. the nature of the killer role is to play untill all survivors are out or dead so need to be able to play the match regardless of how many "fails" the killer gets. survivors get eliminated by design and giving them unlimited ways to play the match to the very end makes no sense.
Why should the killer be able to win that match?
Simply flip the script: Ok, so survivors have 1 survivor dead at 5 gens, all other survivors are on dead hook. Can you explain how survivors can win that match other than the killer simply allowing them to escape?
See how entitled that mindset is? Why do you deserve the possibility of a win when you got nothing done and your opponent pretty much got everything done?
And while people dont care about MMR, it IS the reason why they feel like they "need" to tunnel. Objectively, ever since MMR has been introduced, the game has been made easier for killers and more difficult for survivors. Yet the "need" to tunnel raised every single year. Why is that? Maybe the MMR system matching you up with opponents you cannot handle because you cared more about a survivor "unfairly" getting the hatch than you "unfairly" getting a 4k.
And no, godloops no longer exist. There are a few god pallets (aka, pallets you HAVE to break otherwise you cannot loop, like Killershack pallet), but god loops? No.
And people went next, because tunnelling became the standard. If you were hooked first, you would get tunnelled. Tunnelling epidemic introduced Go Next. And tunnelling got so far because of MMR boosting due to slugging and tunnelling just cus. -
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004127#Comment_4004127
If survivors force a killer to slug, then haste and kick bonuses won’t help at all, because the killer still won’t be able to hook that survivor, and the killer can still get punished by anti-slugging.
It's rare that survivors can actively force a slug. And 90 seconds is a LONG time. A survivor is capable of finishing a gen if you are "forced" to slug for 90 seconds without you achieving anything. At that point, you are making a mistake as a killer. At that point, it's best to still just pick up the survivor even without anti-slug at play. In fact, anti-slug might actually help you, because it would turn a slug you cant pickup, into a slug that you can pick-up. Sometimes, its a good thing to pick up a survivor, knowing they would be pallet saved, because it would save you more time and grant more pressure over time than trying to bleed them out.
But once again, 90 seconds is a LONG time. -
@AtlasShark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004010#Comment_4004010
Just gonna respond to some of the things in here.
DS is quite literally a second chance perk. It essentially reads as "If you lose a chase and are picked up within 60 chances of being unhooked, no you weren't". Second chances are not always bad, but this is a second chance perk. Like, by definition. It's a fair perk to have but it is second chance. In the "survivors have 0 agency in their unhook" situation that is a teamplay issue, and cannot be blamed on the Killer.
"Killer second chance" is so cooked into the core of the game because the entire match revolves around Killer clawing advantage away from the Survivors. Survivors start away from the Killer, they have full charges on their items, they have no hook states, no one in need of healing, and the map is flush with pallets. The Killer starts at a disadvantage and doesn't really get their footing until the first down, growing that advantage steadily throughout the match. The two roles are fundamentally different and the game cannot function without that passive advantage gain for Killer.
"bloodlust is second chance, there is not a single god loop in the game". Someone's never played The Hag before I guess (even when you set trap they just rotate to next loop, have another Survivor clear trap at god loop, and then rotate back it's misery). Even now there's some loops that would be problematic if not for the existence of Bloodlust such as Dead Dawg and Garden of Joy main. Most Killers have the tools to contend with these, but some don't and that's why the mechanic exists.
In a hook trade the Killer is not gaining a second chance to have someone on hook, they are accepting a literal trade (often just taking advantage of a misplay). If anything, a hook trade is the Survivor gaining a second chance to not advance a hook stage.
You're right we should bring back the self-unhook action I'm sure that's a wonderful idea.
"They havent been hooked yet". The Killer has multiple win conditions whereas Survivor only has one, escape. This is a fact of the game that needs to be accepted before continuing further. Granted, the Killer's win condition can be simplified to "All Survivors dead, hooked, and/or slugged without recourse", but that is multiple conditions with slugging only included because it is a pre-condition to getting killed (outside of EGC). Comparing this situation to gens being done is silly, and I think you know it's silly lmao
I said DS wasnt second chance, because the previous guy didnt consider any killer mechanic second chance.
And yes, it can somewhat be blamed on the killer, because the only reason they tunnel is because they dont have any basekit reasons not to. Why blame survivors for being able to path in a way where they can chain windows in a way that makes them really hard to catch? The killer does have the agency to switch targets, but instead window blockers, pallet tile reductions and literal RNG rotations being banned from selection have been added to protect survivors from exploiting a killer too much. Yet, there are basically no meta-viable protections in place from killers exploiting a survivor too much.
And I have played Hag, you dont really chase with Hag. You lure. The only time you chase with Hag, is because you've set up a web of traps and push a survivor into your web. Chasing with Hag is like equipping Scratched Mirror Myers and then instead of sneaking up on people, you want to chase.
ALL killers have mechanics to deal with survivors. The only reason Bloodlust exists is because people pick a killer who has a different approach to the game, and still play them as if they are Nemesis. Yeah, you're going to need bloodlust on Hag if you dont know how to play her. Besides all that, doesnt take away that it's second chance. You're actively losing a chase, not breaking any pallets, not being able to use your power to the point that you decide to just brute force an m1. And instead of rewarding the survivor who managed to force you into that state, it rewards the killer for making bad decisions. That is, by all means, second chance. You get a second chance at chase. I've had 1 game in the past year, where bloodlust was absolutely neccesary to beat someone at a loop. That was on a killer I hadnt played in 4 years, who I was extremely rusty at and I was faced against survivors I literally faced with my best killer 3 matches ago and got send to a map that was extremely bad for that killer. Every other time I gained bloodlust, was literally the moment I already downed the survivor.
Dead Dawg isnt really that big of an issue either. Dead Dawg is still considered one of the most killer sided maps in the entire game. It's one of Hag's best maps too. All you gotta do is break 4 doors ASAP and survivors wont last.
And I would call the hooktrade a second chance, because attacks now are 4 stacks of STBFL faster than before. Before that change, you could unhook a survivor in front of a face camping killer in time to still pull off Dead Hard or have your teammate switch places with you for a BT hit. Nowadays, thats no longer the case. A facecamping killer pretty much is guaranteed a kill, even if survivors manage to unhook in front of you. That's a kill that originally would not always be possible if survivors teamed up correctly. Nowadays, to do the same thing, you basically need aura's or comms to pull it off. And even then, it depends on what killer you face.
While it is somewhat silly, I did use the comparison, because strictly speaking, a killer who intended to get any kill at 3 gens(aka, not a killer who intended to kill in endgame) would have lost with enough gens gone, but they can still win. Where survivors could legit be screwed over by game mechanics that make certain things possible (Singu can facecamp and tunnel extremely hard, he is weak against SWF on comms, but that's legit his only real weakness). But the argument is that killers dont have to care for survivor fun and that surviving should be hard. Then why should survivors care about killer fun, and have the argument that getting a 3k should be hard too? Killers literally deny hatch because they consider it unfair, despite it having been nerfed 6 times so far. So why should tunnelling specifically not be nerfed 6 times because survivors consider it unfair?
Not even talking about that the basekit buff for killers would, in the vast majority of cases, apply to every single match. Where the anti-tunnel/anti-rushed kill would only happen once in a while and when its actually needed. You can still slug for pressure. Even if that survivor can pick themselves up for free after 90 seconds without help, that's still 90 seconds where that survivor is practically out of the game. That's still 90 seconds where you can slug someone else and turn the game around. On top of that, if the next person you hook isnt sequential to the one prior, you would get a 10% gen kick bonus on top of the basekit 5%.
So, you can slug, down number 2, hook them, kick a gen and remove 15% flat (so, ~14 seconds of progression), find the other survivor, come back, kick the gen again for another 15% flat gone (so ~27 seconds gone, basically 1/3rd of the gen gone with just 2 hooks). That more than removes the need to slug or tunnel in general for most killers. Pig with those changes can easily be B tier, because you have people with hats on that are not gonna work on gens for a while. Trapper wouldnt really see any changes at all, most of the time someone gets hooked in succession, its after a hooktrade anyway.
Legit, the only killers that actively get harmed in terms of results, are Twins and Sadako. Everyone else either has a net benefit if they simply stop slugging and tunnelling. Sadako is fixable by making her mori count as 3 hooks, Twins is in need of a rework.
You do have to realize that a lot of players also slug and tunnel because they are boosted in MMR because of slugging and tunnelling. I rarely face survivors that I "have" to tunnel or slug to win, and even if tunnelling and slugging would have given me the win, I rather have the loss that 1 round out of 10 rounds than face survivors who are better than me. If you would reset MMR with these changes in play, odds are that suddenly, no one would need to tunnel or slug to win most of their games ever again. -
@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004008#Comment_4004008
Oni wont really get affected as much as you think.
I think it's more likely you simply fail to see how much it would affect every killer and Oni would be affected most.
He simply can't pick up everytime he downs a survivor.
Luckily whole feature was halted and I doubt we will see it in this form, so it's fine.
Twins is affected the most, and while all killers are affected, that wasnt entirely tr. Killers got haste and kick bonusses for each non-sequential hook, and a permanent kick bonus if everyone is hooked once will easily compensate for those 3-4 games where slugging is a neccesity
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@joeyspeehole said:
It was punishing players for playing…. sarcasm
There were cases where it absolutely did, hence why it absolutely needs tweaks. But fully cancelling it was a bad decision.