AtlasShark
AtlasShark
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This is easily the one realm/map that benefits from the changes and the pretty unanimous votes solidify that. Legit every other realm should be entirely reverted with the exception of Borgo which would probably be best in a middle ground situation.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004327#Comment_4004327
"Frankly, the only reason most Killers tunnel is because the Survivor team misplays and grants them the opportunity to. If the most effective way to play is handed to them, why shouldn't they take it y'know?"
Frankly, the only reason survivors rushed gens in the past, was because killers misplayed and gave them the oppertunity to. If the most effective way to play is handed to them, why shouldnt they take it y'know?
BASEKIT countermeasures implemented since then:
Basekit 5% damage
Survivors need to repair at least 5% before the generator stops regressing(no more gen tapping)
Gens went from 70 seconds to 80 seconds, and 2 years later from 80 seconds to 90 seconds
Reduced/removed tall grass so survivors have a harder time hiding near gens
Reduced the strength of pallets around gens
Chase related interactions have been sped up by 10%
And that's just 2020-2025.
Things that have been added to combat the increase of tunnelling and slugging:
HUD update to show recovery status
Basekit BT(which is nice to have, but its just a 10 second timer)
That's it.Comparing Survivors rushing gens to Killers tunneling is one of those things that sounds right on the face of it, but falls apart pretty quickly when you realize that the Killer cannot effectively keep four players off of gens at once without slugging. Which, I'm pretty sure you don't want to encourage. Again, the nature of the game prevents your logic from really following through in a neat and linear way because the game isn't neat and linear.
Let me ask you this in regards to those basekit changes to gens. Did they actively ruin any specific Survivor build/playstyle? Those are roughly analogous to Killer powers (at least as analogous as exists on the Survivor side). From what I can tell, they didn't. None of these changes had such immediately negative repercussions to any Survivor playstyle. Sure, they made Survivor as a whole weaker, but they didn't unfairly punish specific playstyles to a meaningful capacity (truthfully, increasing charges to repair a gen actually makes gen rush better because those percentage repair bonuses get more total value).
The only one here that impedes a specific Survivor playstyle are the changes to map decor, which is fair. But, it also opens up the argument that perks designed to enable a stealthy playstyle gained value as a direct result. So like, even then it largely falls flat upon further inspection. Then there's also an argument that the removal of tall grass negatively impacted some Killers as well, who could (or would have had it remained e.g. Chucky) been able to leverage it to their advantage.
In regards to changes that combat the increase of tunneling and slugging you also forgot:
- Movement speed bonus upon unhook (was not part of Borrowed Time and is an additional effect for anti-tunneling specifically. Was later added to BT in 6.1.0). This was later increased from 7% to 10% haste.
- Increased duration of these effects from 5s to 10s.
- Removed ability for several Killers to place traps directly under/around hook (allowed some Killers to deny self-unhooks and immediately resume a tunnel).
- Increased hook stage timer to 70s (this is absurdly impactful over the course of a game if Survivors play it right).
- Anti-camp meter (let's be honest, camping is more or less an intent to tunnel when boiled down because it's an attempt at forcing another hook stage and getting a Survivor out ASAP; the MO of tunneling).
- Removed hook grabs (forces hook stages on a single Survivor by removing trades).
Seems like these would be relevant to mention if you had the intention of being fair when talking about both sides. I feel like I missed something too, but it's late and I don't wanna do research haha
Chase-related interactions are not really relevant changes to your specified example (gen rushing) so I won't be addressing them as that's another tangent entirely. To be 100% transparent, I think these were pretty much all good changes on both sides. I don't really possess any form of immense bias to one role over another. My goal is to keep specific Killers from being disadvantaged from the proposed changes, not balking at the idea of a change to the role.
I think I've been very clear that my overall stance is that the changes were bad largely because they ended up punishing Killers in uneven, exploitative, and even unavoidable ways. If you haven't been picking up on that being my main qualm, then I don't have any hope for this conversation to progress further. They were flawed the way they were presented to us, and they would need significant reworking to be healthy changes. I like the idea of changes aimed to reduce hard-tunneling and excessive slugging, but I would need them to be implemented in a way which only affects the Killer players actively trying to ruin someone's day. Anything else means it can crop up in regular gameplay and become problematic. That's why I already made a thread about a reworked version of these changes that accomplishes those goals. Constructive criticism over, well, balking.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004072#Comment_4004072
I said DS wasnt second chance, because the previous guy didnt consider any killer mechanic second chance.
And yes, it can somewhat be blamed on the killer, because the only reason they tunnel is because they dont have any basekit reasons not to. Why blame survivors for being able to path in a way where they can chain windows in a way that makes them really hard to catch? The killer does have the agency to switch targets, but instead window blockers, pallet tile reductions and literal RNG rotations being banned from selection have been added to protect survivors from exploiting a killer too much. Yet, there are basically no meta-viable protections in place from killers exploiting a survivor too much.
And I have played Hag, you dont really chase with Hag. You lure. The only time you chase with Hag, is because you've set up a web of traps and push a survivor into your web. Chasing with Hag is like equipping Scratched Mirror Myers and then instead of sneaking up on people, you want to chase.
ALL killers have mechanics to deal with survivors. The only reason Bloodlust exists is because people pick a killer who has a different approach to the game, and still play them as if they are Nemesis. Yeah, you're going to need bloodlust on Hag if you dont know how to play her. Besides all that, doesnt take away that it's second chance. You're actively losing a chase, not breaking any pallets, not being able to use your power to the point that you decide to just brute force an m1. And instead of rewarding the survivor who managed to force you into that state, it rewards the killer for making bad decisions. That is, by all means, second chance. You get a second chance at chase. I've had 1 game in the past year, where bloodlust was absolutely neccesary to beat someone at a loop. That was on a killer I hadnt played in 4 years, who I was extremely rusty at and I was faced against survivors I literally faced with my best killer 3 matches ago and got send to a map that was extremely bad for that killer. Every other time I gained bloodlust, was literally the moment I already downed the survivor.
Dead Dawg isnt really that big of an issue either. Dead Dawg is still considered one of the most killer sided maps in the entire game. It's one of Hag's best maps too. All you gotta do is break 4 doors ASAP and survivors wont last.
And I would call the hooktrade a second chance, because attacks now are 4 stacks of STBFL faster than before. Before that change, you could unhook a survivor in front of a face camping killer in time to still pull off Dead Hard or have your teammate switch places with you for a BT hit. Nowadays, thats no longer the case. A facecamping killer pretty much is guaranteed a kill, even if survivors manage to unhook in front of you. That's a kill that originally would not always be possible if survivors teamed up correctly. Nowadays, to do the same thing, you basically need aura's or comms to pull it off. And even then, it depends on what killer you face.
While it is somewhat silly, I did use the comparison, because strictly speaking, a killer who intended to get any kill at 3 gens(aka, not a killer who intended to kill in endgame) would have lost with enough gens gone, but they can still win. Where survivors could legit be screwed over by game mechanics that make certain things possible (Singu can facecamp and tunnel extremely hard, he is weak against SWF on comms, but that's legit his only real weakness). But the argument is that killers dont have to care for survivor fun and that surviving should be hard. Then why should survivors care about killer fun, and have the argument that getting a 3k should be hard too? Killers literally deny hatch because they consider it unfair, despite it having been nerfed 6 times so far. So why should tunnelling specifically not be nerfed 6 times because survivors consider it unfair?
Not even talking about that the basekit buff for killers would, in the vast majority of cases, apply to every single match. Where the anti-tunnel/anti-rushed kill would only happen once in a while and when its actually needed. You can still slug for pressure. Even if that survivor can pick themselves up for free after 90 seconds without help, that's still 90 seconds where that survivor is practically out of the game. That's still 90 seconds where you can slug someone else and turn the game around. On top of that, if the next person you hook isnt sequential to the one prior, you would get a 10% gen kick bonus on top of the basekit 5%.
So, you can slug, down number 2, hook them, kick a gen and remove 15% flat (so, ~14 seconds of progression), find the other survivor, come back, kick the gen again for another 15% flat gone (so ~27 seconds gone, basically 1/3rd of the gen gone with just 2 hooks). That more than removes the need to slug or tunnel in general for most killers. Pig with those changes can easily be B tier, because you have people with hats on that are not gonna work on gens for a while. Trapper wouldnt really see any changes at all, most of the time someone gets hooked in succession, its after a hooktrade anyway.
Legit, the only killers that actively get harmed in terms of results, are Twins and Sadako. Everyone else either has a net benefit if they simply stop slugging and tunnelling. Sadako is fixable by making her mori count as 3 hooks, Twins is in need of a rework.
You do have to realize that a lot of players also slug and tunnel because they are boosted in MMR because of slugging and tunnelling. I rarely face survivors that I "have" to tunnel or slug to win, and even if tunnelling and slugging would have given me the win, I rather have the loss that 1 round out of 10 rounds than face survivors who are better than me. If you would reset MMR with these changes in play, odds are that suddenly, no one would need to tunnel or slug to win most of their games ever again.Frankly, the only reason most Killers tunnel is because the Survivor team misplays and grants them the opportunity to. If the most effective way to play is handed to them, why shouldn't they take it y'know?
I don't blame Survivors for using infinite loops like they did back in the day, nor for abusing currently exceptionally strong loops. That's their prerogative. But again, the mechanic exists for the Killers (characters, not players) who cannot adequately handle it and maintaining the power role is key to the game's flow. And there are several meta-viable options for keeping the Killer from exploiting a particular Survivor too much. Mostly this is in the form of perks (Unbreakable, DS, OtR, Shoulder the Burden, etc.) but also exists in the form of teamplay. Taking protection hits, flashlights, flashbangs, cranking gens, threatening pallet saves, etc. These are all methods in which Survivors can curb the impact of the Killer exploiting that one Survivor. The only situation in which a Survivor is effectively helpless in the situation is if there's little to no teamplay on the Survivor team and they're paying the opportunity cost of not taking preventative perks. Which feels bad, sure. But it's a confluence of factors that all need to be taken into consideration.
That's what Hag wants to do. Good Survivor teams do not let Hag do what she wants to do. If you haven't experienced the abject misery of having your Killer kit fully exploited by two Survivors while the others do gens then I envy you, truly.
Again, Bloodlust exists to alleviate pain points for specific Killers (as well as future-proofing the game for future loops). Let's swap examples. The Oni does not have a power that deals with loops until he has earned it via landing an M1. Often he has to rely on Bloodlust in order to obtain that hit because there just exist some loops that are too strong for him to reasonably deal with otherwise. He can't effectively switch targets, because he has a regular Terror Radius and good Survivors will pre-run him all day long. Straight up, he has no option to deal with it until he's already landed the M1.
I think your definition of "second chance" is far too broad. In fact, I think it would be less of a stretch to say that a Survivor getting healed is giving them a second chance as they can now take another hit. Unhooking a Survivor? That's a second chance. They already lost their chase they should be dead. etc. It's an extremely narrow way to view the game in a way purposefully skewed to your, seemingly, preferred role.
Dead Dawg is widely considered to have one of the best main buildings in the game, alongside Garden of Joy. I am specifically referencing these loops as problematic because Survivors worth their salt will beeline to these loops in times of need. The maps as wholes are not being considered because we're talking about how Bloodlust interacts with problematic loops.
Survivor is balanced around teamplay and some level of coordination. It is not the Killer's fault that the Survivor team is not coordinated enough to orchestrate an unhook maneuver using that classic pincer style. Again, I also think that your definition of "second chance" is off, and should be something you personally revisit.
Either side can win while at a disadvantage, as is the nature of a tug-of-war style game flow. I don't really see where you're going with that honestly. Seems like kind of a silly extension to a silly rant.
The basekit buffs for Killers are their own can of worms, primarily because they don't benefit Killers equally and are not genuinely exploitable like the anti-tunnel and anti-slug mechanics were. They just weren't a good solution to the issue.
The Killers who are most negatively impacted would be, The Twins, The Oni, The Onryo, The Pig, The Trapper, and The Hag. The first two are fairly obvious as they're the Killers that slug as a function of their power (they aren't alone in this. For example, The Knight occasionally slugs as a function of his power and could be specifically negatively affected as well). The next two have alternate kill mechanics that do not rely on hook stages, with The Pig's being something that the Survivor is ultimately in control of rather than the Killer. These obviously have issues. The last two have powers that are reliant on Survivor mistakes, making inadvertent tunneling something that can just occur from normal gameplay. In fact, the proposed mechanics actually made the last two pretty abusable. Take this scenario I played out in the PTB 9.2.0 for example. Playing the game as The Hag and hooked three Survivors once each. My fourth hook was on one of the first two Survivors I had hooked previously with two gens left. Mind you, I'm playing the game as the Survivors wish and spreading hooks fairly evenly. That Survivor, knowing that if I kill him I am basically guaranteed to lose the game, proceeds to just run through all my traps after getting unhooked. If I kill him I am limited to 1k, maybe 2k if I play it right because of the gen bonus speed and no regression. Killing him is off the table. If I slug him, he will either get up on his own after 90 seconds or, more likely based on how the team was playing, will pick him up while I try to reset web and he'll do it again. Slugging is off the table. The Survivor has exploited the mechanics to force me to either settle for a 1-2k, or play without traps until I get another hook on someone else as a powerless 110% Killer. The impact of these changes reaches far beyond just The Twins, and it's unrealistic to say we should rework all six of these Killers likely months (if not years knowing BHVR) after pushing changes that either kneecap them or can be exploited and weaponized against them. It's just not how the game should be designed or balanced.
These anti-slug and anti-tunnel mechanics just were not healthy for the game in the state they were presented to us. Instead of complaining about how they weren't implemented, it is far more beneficial to talk about how they could be altered to make them a healthy change to the game.
I do not care about MMR. I also know that the game is balanced in such a way that extremely skilled and coordinated Survivor teams stomp even Killers who do tunnel and slug. At some point you have to realize that these mechanics are balanced, and even designed around, in DbD. The changes presented in the PTB 9.2.0 didn't really take that into consideration, which is why they failed phenomenally.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004009#Comment_4004009
DS isnt second chance, it stops giving killers free hooks when survivors have 0 agency in their unhook.
"2nd chances are things that enable the person to lose the match and then get a 2nd chance to win."
The killer can legit go from 0 hooks to 4 kills at any point in the game. You can legit lose the match as a killer, and still win.
You as a killer can fail at your objective by consistently losing, and then still win.
And hatch isnt second chance, hatch was added as a legitimate way of escape. DBD isnt exactly 1v4. It can be 1v(1v1). If its between myself and a teammate, I can decide to screw the teammate over for hatch. That is me actively causing a teammate to die, to get an escape.
On top of that, even if you get hatch, its not a win. MMR-wise, its a draw. Game-wise, 3 kills is still a loss for survivors. Not a win.
Again, killers can go from 0 hooks to 4 kills at any point in theory. I've had games where I could barely lay hands on anyone for 4 gens, and then suddenly got 3 of them downed and hooked in basement. I've never had games where I got 6 hooks early on and then ended up losing. Killer second chance is so cooked into the core of the game, that you dont even realize it.
And yes, bloodlust is second chance, there is not a single god loop in the game. And if you cannot catch that 1 survivor because they are actively outplaying you, then maybe go for a different survivor, instead of waiting for your second chance basekit to activate so you can unfairly catch a survivor who is actively outplaying you?
"but when killer fails to kill before the survivors escape, there is no 2nd chance for the killer to pick up a kill"
When a survivor unhooks, the killer can hit them and hooktrade. They get a second chance to have someone on the hook.
"At best, the egc disabling the anti camp for a hooked survivor might be considered 2nd chance to get 1k but thats still a loss for the killer"
So, anti-camp disable "might be" 2nd chance, but it doesnt matter because its still a loss for the killer. But hatch IS 2nd chance, despite it being a loss for survivors? Great bias dude.
"but people want a way to comeback from that loss scenario"
They actively removed the self-unhook action. And thats not even a second chance thing.
"survivors all slugged, they lost"
Why tho? They havent been hooked yet. You havent hooked them yet. When all 5 gens are gone, should you lose the ability to down? Gens are gone, you lost.Just gonna respond to some of the things in here.
DS is quite literally a second chance perk. It essentially reads as "If you lose a chase and are picked up within 60 chances of being unhooked, no you weren't". Second chances are not always bad, but this is a second chance perk. Like, by definition. It's a fair perk to have but it is second chance. In the "survivors have 0 agency in their unhook" situation that is a teamplay issue, and cannot be blamed on the Killer.
"Killer second chance" is so cooked into the core of the game because the entire match revolves around Killer clawing advantage away from the Survivors. Survivors start away from the Killer, they have full charges on their items, they have no hook states, no one in need of healing, and the map is flush with pallets. The Killer starts at a disadvantage and doesn't really get their footing until the first down, growing that advantage steadily throughout the match. The two roles are fundamentally different and the game cannot function without that passive advantage gain for Killer.
"bloodlust is second chance, there is not a single god loop in the game". Someone's never played The Hag before I guess (even when you set trap they just rotate to next loop, have another Survivor clear trap at god loop, and then rotate back it's misery). Even now there's some loops that would be problematic if not for the existence of Bloodlust such as Dead Dawg and Garden of Joy main. Most Killers have the tools to contend with these, but some don't and that's why the mechanic exists.
In a hook trade the Killer is not gaining a second chance to have someone on hook, they are accepting a literal trade (often just taking advantage of a misplay). If anything, a hook trade is the Survivor gaining a second chance to not advance a hook stage.
You're right we should bring back the self-unhook action I'm sure that's a wonderful idea.
"They havent been hooked yet". The Killer has multiple win conditions whereas Survivor only has one, escape. This is a fact of the game that needs to be accepted before continuing further. Granted, the Killer's win condition can be simplified to "All Survivors dead, hooked, and/or slugged without recourse", but that is multiple conditions with slugging only included because it is a pre-condition to getting killed (outside of EGC). Comparing this situation to gens being done is silly, and I think you know it's silly lmao
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@Defnotmeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001738#Comment_4001738
The comment about Twins was added, because her rework has been in the works since january 2022. She is still on the rework list. She needs one anyway, regardless of what happens to slugging. And Slugging has needed an overhaul since 2020.
Its not an invalidation, its more that Twins has been invalidated already (again, its been 3 years, her rework was considered high priority), so what's another 3-4 months?
And at this point, no one cared about certain changes making survivor builds or perks absolutely useless. Do you realize how many things are actually invalidated? Flashlights alone are extremely invalidated. There was an addon rework for items, yet 65% of flashlight addons do the exact same thing that has had no use for YEARS: Increases brightness by X%. In fact, Odd Bulb has the downside of battery depletion because of the brightness being increased.
What does increasing the brightness do, you may ask? Well, back in 2017, brightness increased blindness speed. Since 2017, its only a cosmetic change. So the ONLY real thing the Odd Bulb does is Increasing Blindness Duration by 25%, at the cost of 14% depletion increase
You know what other addons increase blindness duration with NO downside?
Broken Bulb - 30%
High End Sapphire Lens - 15%
Intense Halogen - 20%
TIR Optic - 15%
Focus Lens - 10%
Power Bulb - 10%
Out of 14 flashlight addons, 50% of them increase blindness duration. And the most expensive addon is the worst one.
And then, it gets worse, because Lightborn was made from 80% blindness resistance, to blindness immunity. Invalidating the existance of an entire item.
All this to say, sometimes, some aspects of the game get screwed over for the objective long term health for the game. Keeping the 3 Twins mains happy doesnt matter if it means losing an entire playerbase instead. Slugging is unhealthy in its current state. Twins cannot exist without slugging in its current state. Twins is in need of a rework anyway regardless of slugging changes, so her aspect doesnt matter as a counter argument. She would only get better because of itYes, I am aware The Twins is slated for a rework. This does not mean pushing a patch that actually, truly invalidates them (not in the "Oh, the devs still haven't reworked them so clearly they don't care" way you seem to suggest) is okay.
Your section about flashlights isn't about them being invalidated, it's actually about them having add-ons which are better than other add-ons. Which uh, yeah? This is extremely common literally everywhere in the game. I'm sorry but like 50% of your post is a very silly tangent.
Acting like Lightborn existing invalidates the entire existence of flashlights is extraordinarily silly. It's akin to saying Medkits, as an item, are invalidated because The Plague is gonna make you broken the entire match, forgetting that over 98% of games will not be against her. Lightborn has a 5.39% pick rate btw, so like… seems like you can get value in 95% of your games still but maybe that's just me.
The game is not going to lose its playerbase in the span of time between now and the next PTB. Sorry, but you're delusional if you think that's the case. I agree, changing slugging would be beneficial for the long-term health of the game but if you think that paralleling one unsatisfying add-on from an item to effectively disabling entire Killers (The Twins just being the most prominent) is okay then like, I don't even know where to go from here. It's just such an insane Survivor bias that it's insurmountable, so I'll leave you with this.
The Twins should be reworked. The anti-Slugging measures cannot hit live as they were in PTB 9.2.0 without completely destroying them. Either the anti-Slugging is put off until that rework, or those changes themselves get reworked so as to not destroy the Killer. Any other option tells me that you think it is okay for the devs to essentially Skull Merchant another character, which isn't okay. I'm sorry, but it's just not and no one should be okay with that sort of attitude to game balance/design.
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@Bradyguy99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003482#Comment_4003482
They got to cause like I played 2v8 a ton and still no where close… and with the game being so buggy with TWD most players waited for it to be more stable. This needs to be addressed hopefully.
I wouldn't be surprised if the last 1-2 weeks offers crazy fragment bonuses. TWD patch made me miss a ton of dailies too and only one event means we get like, three less weeks worth of weeklies (each event is around roughly three extra sets of weekly quests I think). Much worse average gain than last rift.
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The Badham lower floor should just be changed in general. If Killer Basement spawns there then it is extraordinarily rough for Survivors to get out. If it doesn't, then it becomes an abusable safe haven for Survivors. It's just not a well-designed section IMO.
If that's too unreasonable, then placing a guaranteed hook down there as mentioned would be the best option since Survivors have four Offering slots with which to rig the map in their favor (even with nerfed map Offerings it's still extremely annoying. Bloodied Blueprint and The Pied Piper combined is gonna give you a 20% chance to end up with that abusable setup which the Killer can only counter one of Offerings. That's also not mentioning the potential Petrified Oak and a secondary map Offering to another beneficial Survivor realm like Eyrie).
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@MashedBroccoli said:
anti tunnel should of launched with zero changes. Killers can suffer until it gets balanced properly, we’ve dealt with tunnel for years at this point. What happened to them releasing stuff and look at the data before they adjust?
Just a thoroughly awful take. Also they literally did release it into the PTB and the feedback was resoundingly negative so they adjusted course.
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Breakdown. Paired with a hook offering it can create pretty substantial hook deadzones for a significant length of time. I don't think the perk is weak per se, just rare to see outside of the full SWF setup it thrives in.
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If you type in "gullible" Red Herring appears. Probably a nod at how it interacts with the Killer.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
The update, sure, needs tweaks. But why not implement a version with reduced numbers that basically only have impact in specific cases?
6 hooks too many to block gens? Depends on the killer, but reduce it to 4 so that at least someone else needs to be hooked first.
25% being too much of a boost? Drop it to 10%. Barely will have an impact, but it will give survivors some hope of finishing 4 gens if someone dies early.
Anti-slug can be implemented as is, Twins needs a rework anyway. If it needs tweaks, then do so later. Undying was up for 5 months before it got tweaked. Ghoul has been in an annoying state for forever too. Killers can deal with 3 months of anti-slug potentially being a bit too punishing
Keep the basekit bbq and 5% permanent regression bonus per unique survivor hooked too.
THEN tweak the rest around it. Its a baseline that would just make games more than just singularity basically camping with biopods, or a trickster dropping chase because main event is ready and the basekit BT is just a minor obstacle.
But fully delaying it for another 3 months? No. Sorry, Done. I already waited over a year to finally hear an update about a viable basekit anti-slug and some tweaks to anti-tunnel. I've waited 6 months since the emergency abandon feature. If I need to wait for another 3 months, thats going to be 3 months playing something else.The comment about The Twins was all I really needed to see to disregard this post. None of these changes should be considered until they can be reworked healthily so as to not invalidate a Killer (hence why they will be re-introduced in future PTBs). Sorry, but that's just not be an acceptable attitude towards balance.
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@ForumPikmin said:
Actually embarrassing how many players were crying about BHVR hating killer players this past week just for them to annouce they're holding back the anti-tunnel and anti-camp changes 2 DAYS after the ptb.
Like y'all look so goofy right now.They announced they were holding them back because of the outcry. That's cause and effect. If anything, what those players did was extremely effective and you look goofy calling it goofy.
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Honestly, Survivors are stronger now than they've been in several years. A massive amount of viable perks, more impactful buffs to perks, recent Survivor perks being much better than recent Killer perks, extra long hook stages, anti-camp (necessary, but still makes them stronger), etc. And that's not even considering things like increasing player skill over time being more beneficial for Survivors over Killers. While having some form of anti-slug and anti-tunnel would be good, those PTB changes were not balanced nor viable in the long-term.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999810#Comment_3999810
Fog Vials are bugged. On some maps they're completely opaque and on others they do almost nothing. They're impossible to balance until they equalise the effect across maps.
On top of that, they're an item built to create gameplay situations in which neither side is interacting. Just not a great design overall. Would prefer if they just reworked them to be a small, opaque smoke sphere like the Halloween events. Pop it on a corner like shack and now you can mindgame it more interesting ways while being equalized across maps. Boom, fixed.
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999364#Comment_3999364
A killer can quickly tunnel a survivor out, this triggers the go next penalty which puts the survivor in a time out from playing the game. The game cannot tell the difference between a killer tunneling and a survivor giving up.
Again, this is about the inconsistency in BHVRs stance on what is considered too punishing. Survivor ability to weaponize the antitunnel/slug does not force a time out penalty in killers, it only may cause the killer to lose a couple kills, but BHVR thinks that is too punishing. The go next penalty however the killer can weaponize by tunneling out a survivor quickly and the survivor will not only lose the match but they will get hit with a penalty - BHVR does not consider this too punishing.
Even in your example you have the killer at a draw with 2k after playing a full match and that's considered "too punishing" but a survivor losing the match quickly at the start from being tunneled out quickly and getting hit with a penalty on top of that is not considered too punishing, it's apparently perfectly fine. All I want is BHVR to be consistent with what they consider "too punishing" for both sides.
That's not an issue with tunneling, but to the systems that determine what constitutes "go next". Not really a valid criticism of tunneling I'm afraid and I would, if I were you, advocate to change that detection mechanic instead if that is a major flaw in the game that is being exploited. I haven't seen it happen personally, nor any proof of it on the current patch.
In my example, I am effectively experiencing a time out penalty until the game is over. I'm playing as Hag. My entire power in concentrated into the traps that the given Survivor is constantly erasing. This essentially makes me incapable of playing the game and renders me a Survivor plaything until they get bored and end the game (which does happen at higher MMRs). I'm concerned about your attitude towards the Killer role if you cannot see that.
Also in my example, I am at best able to secure a 2k with all likelihood receiving a 1k (this was the end result as 30 seconds of Haste and Endurance makes chasing down the unhook in end game impossible). The anti-tunnel and anti-slug mechanics foisted upon me made reacting to the Survivor team's play unviable, restricting my potential play in a way that is "too punishing". Being entirely honest, I think anyone who genuinely wanted those mechanics as they were in the PTB does not want an interactive back and forth game. Instead, they want a game where the Killer is instead supposed to say "Alright, it's your turn to get chase!" over a match where the macro game is factored in at all. Which is not, and never should be, DbD.
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@GloomySpooks said:
I love that this positive and healthy post is ignored for all the negative doomposting, regurgitating the same things their fav streamer said, and bashing the already-canceled update for everything it's worth.
The discord server was exactly the same, no matter how much someone would ask for suggestions in ptb discussion on improving the system, everyone would ignore that to scream about how unfair it was and add nothing productive.
And all the people wishing for the game's death are the same ones screaming the loudest to reject any healthy change for the game. Because it would mean they'd have to relearn how to play for a lot of them, and the veterans don't care that it would mean a better experience for newer players if the people they're playing with also were adapting to new things.
Anyway, great post, thanks for trying to be positive about it OP!
Glad you enjoyed it! I agree, a lot of what I've been seeing as far as actual conversations go mostly just turns into shouting matches instead of actually proposing anything worthwhile. It's a shame, but hopefully posts like this can get more traction and such. Thanks for your comment!
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There's a definite argument that it started that way and was like that for a bit but once we started getting stuff like Hex: Ruin in the game I think that aspect died altogether. It still has that base DNA but there's so much complexity on top of it nowadays that it's been pretty much lost.
Because like, launch DbD was pretty simple all things considered. -
PTB changes were far too much, impacting Killers not intentionally tunneling and being exploitable by Survivors. They already said they'd be back in another PTB after further iterating and it's important that these measures are actually balanced when released rather than making the single most important role in any match utterly miserable.
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There's a definite argument that it started that way and was like that for a bit but once we started getting stuff like Hex: Ruin in the game I think that aspect died altogether. It still has that base DNA but there's so much complexity on top of it nowadays that it's been pretty much lost.
Because like, launch DbD was pretty simple all things considered. -
PTB changes were far too much, impacting Killers not intentionally tunneling and being exploitable by Survivors. They already said they'd be back in another PTB after further iterating and it's important that these measures are actually balanced when released rather than making the single most important role in any match utterly miserable.
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998908#Comment_3998908
Whether or not the killer would win that match wasn't the point. It's BHVRs inconsistency on what is considered "too punishing" depending on the side you are playing.
At no point were killers going to have a time out penalty (let alone one survivors could force on them) with the antislugging/tunneling but BHVR said it was "too punishing." Meanwhile, in the live version of the game without testing in the PTB, if a killer chooses to quickly tunnel out a survivor that will trigger the go next penalty and force the survivor player into a time out from playing any DBD - not only has the survivor player lost the match but they also now cannot continue playing DBD until the time out penalty goes away.
Maybe you should've spent more time thinking out what you were typing, but I digress. I also don't understand how the Killer is "forcing" the go-next penalty on the Survivor. Maybe you can explain that one to me.
And yeah, they stopped the changes because they were too punishing LOLTake this game I had in the PTB for example. Playing Hag, got three survivors to one hook stage each. I find one of the first two players I hooked and gave them their second hook stage. I am now at four total hook stages with two gens left. That survivor gets unhooked and proceeds to run through every single one of my traps. Normally, the answer is to kill the survivor because they triggered my trap which is typically considered to be a survivor mistake (unless they're running anti-tunnel perks). Except I can't. If I kill them at this stage of the game I am dooming myself to maybe a 2k at best given the 25% repair speed bonus and inability to regress. I also can't slug them because of the anti-slug changes and the simple fact that he'll probably get picked up while I reset my web.
If the anti-tunnel and anti-slug mechanics can be weaponized against the Killer in a way that effectively ends the Killer's game then and there then they're too punishing. Simple as that. -
@bm33 said:
A killer maybe losing from antitunnel? Too punishing for the killer. A killer tunneling out a survivor at 5 gens forcing the go next penalty on the survivor so the survivor not only loses the match at the start but also has a time out from being able to continue playing DBD? Totally fine.
I gotta be honest, if a Killer is able to successfully tunnel a player out without any gens being done in the meantime that Killer was going to win the game anyways.
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Honestly, bit flabbergasted by these proposed changes. It doesn't feel like you guys have a great idea for how players typically play your game at all. As is, these changes feel more like they outright disable these strategies rather than discouraging them, which would be the healthiest way to go about it. Not gonna talk about the specific killer balance changes as they seem fine. Here's what I like about the game-wide changes:
- Elusive. Great status effect, and a big help to discouraging tunneling without punishing killers. I am worried that the "for a limited time" will be longer than the current duration of haste and endurance though, as I think it should be the same length (if not then maybe let elusive last like 5 seconds longer than the basekit haste and endurance effects. Nothing too crazy).
- No collision with other players when unhooked. This probably should've been in the game ages ago so glad it's here.
- Can see the killer's aura. This is good as it helps the survivor navigate away and really is only gonna help newer survivors as experienced ones will have enough gamesense to generally know where the killer is coming from already. Solid change. Don't give them the immunity to killer instinct though because that's largely killer specific and would only serve to nerf them specifically.
- Improved repair speeds if a survivor dies while under X hook states completed. You guys set it at 6 but personally it should probably be 4. Sometimes survivors are intent on stealthing and you can only consistently find 1-2 people. 4 hook states means you have to spread hooks evenly between 2 survivors to avoid the repair speed punishment and feels like a much more fair requirement. It's much harder to argue that a survivor was tunneled out if the killer kept oscillating between 2 different players.
- Unique hook bonuses. This is a good idea, and especially the part about it affecting different killers to different degrees. But, there's a better solution I'll give below everything else.
Here's what I think should be immediately trashed:
- All the slugging changes. Slugging only really derives the value it does because someone else has to come and pick the slug up while the killer presumably chases someone else. As it is here, the survivors can just keep sitting on gens the entire time because their teammate is going to get back up in 90s. It's a team game and I think that the killer being able to force teamplay is a boon to how the game plays. Given the current wording, it seems like it will be infinite use too after that 90s period has elapsed. I feel that these changes are too extreme given survivors have a solid collection of powerful perks to mitigate slugging already. Unbreakable, Exponential, and Conviction are all solid choices that survivors can choose to alleviate the pressure slugging generates. If we're really dead-set on giving basekit Unbreakable we should limit the usage to once per match and increase the required slug time. I'm completely fine with the general intent of these changes. Attempting to curb the behavior of the very small minority of killers who slug just to bleed people out is a noble goal but these changes are going to impact killers just genuinely playing the game. And the basekit Tenacity should just be gone like c'mon this doesn't need to be here at all.
- Hiding hook status from killer. I think it's fair to delay the loud noise notification, forcing killers to keep an eye on their HUD to know when someone's been unhooked but sometimes the unhook is the only source of information the killer has. This not only feels like an anti-tunnel change that's just going to result in more proxy camping, but it's a change that protects the unhooker who should be a prime target under any normal circumstance. It just feels really convoluted and silly without necessarily accomplishing the intended goal.
- Removing the ability to block or regress gens if a survivor is double-hooked to death. This seems like overkill in the best scenario and outright exploitable in the worse. Let's say the killer double-hooks a survivor and they either kill themselves on hook or their team allows them to die. Does this mean that survivors can benefit by letting one of their teammates go even when the killer wasn't intending to tunnel them out of the game entirely? If so, that's pretty absurd and kinda goes against the team nature of the game outright.
With all that in mind, here's what I propose. The best way to deal with tunneling and slugging isn't to disincentivize it so heavily they're basically phased out, it's to encourage spreading hooks and picking up.
- Broadly buff hook-related perks on the killer side, but make it so they don't function on a double-hook. For instance, take Pop Goes the Weasel. Add some extra regression but now the killer has to hook different players to get the reward. For something like Friends Til the End make the aura reveal significantly longer so it's easier to actually get the expose down. Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain/Weeping Wounds? Tweak the numbers a bit. If you also adjust Scourge Hook RNG you can probably further incentivize hooking. This approach simultaneously encourages hooking instead of slugging and not outright tunneling players. The exception would be Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance which should probably disable itself when a survivor dies. Because it effectively already has the limitation of unique hooks and is arguable the most powerful regression perk in the game this feels fair.
- Massive blood point bonuses for spreading hooks. I know a lot of players aren't going to care about this sorta thing but there are some that will. This is a change free of any balance complications that might further help so why not right?
I know this is a massive chunk of text that most people aren't going to take the time to read but I genuinely think that if you take the aspects from the first section and combine them with the last section you could effectively curb slugging and tunneling for the majority of killers without going so far as to basically remove these strategies for normal players. I'm extremely worried that you guys will implement all the changes here. Like, with very little exaggeration this will kneecap almost every killer except for those with the highest mobility. This patch has a high potential of causing a real killer exodus and putting the game into the same death spiral that VHS found itself in if not course corrected. -
@CrypticGirl said:
This may be the patch that makes me quit DBD for good. Being stuck in a match with players who want to leave but can't is really going to suck the fun out of matches.
"But griefing is bannable."
Sure, but if BHVR is busy processing all of these reports on griefing, they'll never get around to fixing the other issues. You know, the ones that cause Survivors to give up in the first place.
Now, don't quote me on this because I don't know the internal structure of BHVR. But, I'm reasonably confident it's not the same team of people going through reports and also working on game balance, content updates, bug fixes, etc. Like, most dev studios have different groups of people with different tasks and such.
I think they just need to beef up whatever team is processing reports because I imagine there'll be a sizeable influx of griefing and trolling reports should these measures hit live. -
@IronKnight55 said:
I can’t be the only one who thinks the "go next" changes won’t make much difference. I can't count how many times I've unhooked players in the past who wanted to leave the match, only to watch them run straight back to the killer, troll their teammates, or be unhelpful for the rest of the game. Forcing them to stay won’t change that. In my opinion, the developers should focus on understanding why so many players leave games and address those underlying issues, rather than implementing band-aid fixes. Just my thoughts.
This is true, but I think that someone obviously trolling and making the match worse in such an active way would incentivize more reports and such, ending with some sort of penalty in the end. "Go next" has gotten so bad I don't even really think most players bother reporting it anymore.
So long as BHVR steps up their game with penalizing reported players appropriately, this would help root it out rather than providing them with some sort of "I was just trying to unhook myself!" cover y'know?
Ultimately, I don't think there's any "issues" to fix that would stop people from throwing just to get into the next match faster. The reality is a lot of players are just deeply unhappy and are more than willing to throw a fit over something as silly as getting downed first in a video game or not liking the killer. Can't fix a person's temperament and personality. -
Mori change is very welcome! Not sure where people are getting the idea that this removes clutch Unbreakable plays. If the killer has already reached you and is sitting on top of you waiting to Mori while you recover that Unbreakable isn't going to do anything unless you have say, a Dead Hard ready to go as well. I don't think this edge case really matters all that much.
As for the "Go Next" prevention, I think survivors should be able to attempt self-unhooks if every survivor is hooked/dying. This is a situation in which the game is more than likely already lost so the survivor "Going Next" isn't really a huge deal BUT re-opens the opportunity for clutch 4% plays which people love to see. You could extend this as well to allowing two missed struggle checks to kill survivors if only one is still up and running, sacrificing themselves to spawn hatch quicker but that may be complicating things far too much.
I also think Luck offerings should only grant the person who brought it the ability to self-unhook, even if the bonus applies to the entire team. This brings them in line with the perks unlocking the ability to self-unhook as well, maintaining consistency. Also because otherwise SWFs absolutely will be bringing one every match just to unlock the ability to "Go Next" because the offering slot is just not that valuable. -
I really like this pitch, but I think it's worth addressing some issues.
Many people (myself included) acknowledge that this version has the potential to make her extremely powerful at 3-genning. I'd like to hear about some sort of safeguard to this issue. Perhaps assuming control of a drone eats a large chunk of the battery life so it prevents her swapping between drones rapidly to check for survivors. Maybe assuming control of a drone and then exiting that drone incurs some kind of lockout where she cannot go back to that same drone again for some time. Anything works really, there just needs to be something.
Global detection should detect any survivor doing anything other than crouching. Crouching is already indicated as the best way to get around drone scans so I don't think it's terribly unintuitive. You could also make standing still avoid it but I think it should detect people doing gens, totems, opening chests, healing, etc. Those are the people you'll really want to be finding anyways.
The drone dash is effectively countered by small loops and lockers alike. I think it's totally fine for one of these to be the case, but both seems a little overkill and like it might negatively impact the killer experience. My suggestion is that, while the drone is "chasing" someone, she can put it into an autopilot mode at, say, 90% base speed (potentially reusing some of the code that allows Knight's guards to chase) at the cost of continually consuming battery. This would allow her to pull an "alright I'll just do it myself" and go after the survivor. If the survivor stays at that loop she'll eventually reach them and deal an injury. If the survivor leaves there's a chance she'll swap back to the drone and crash it into them before they can make it to a similarly safe area or create enough distance from the 90% speed drone. This would allow for mind games that aren't really possible with any other killer and would make for a unique addition to a rework that's already notably similar to The Twins. I understand this makes the power more complex but, at this rate, she's already going to have the most complex power in the game regardless. May as well make her specialize in being complex on the killer side and less complex on the survivor side, which I think is still accomplished here compared to her previous versions that slap a billion status effects on survivors. It's okay for a killer to be extremely complex to play as, but not against.
I would also like to suggest that, instead of a mending bar to the claw trap, it functions as it used to where it has a set battery life and then can be manually removed after expiring via the hacking minigame (throw up a prompt at the bottom of the screen for survivors that indicates the remaining battery life in seconds or something to make this less complicated for them). Maybe survivor actions can deplete the battery life faster somehow? Otherwise, I think just holding until the bar fills up is a lame way to go about it.