Defnotmeghead
Defnotmeghead
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@beater15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886033#Comment_3886033
I have no idea what you're smoking… basekit BT, OTR, sabo speed buff, 70 second hooks, anti camp timer, removed hook grabs, flashlight grace period, gen kick limit, reassurance, shoulder, hud activity, unhook iframes, uncounterable flashbangs, etc. Yeah, survivors seem to have it soo bad lol.
Meanwhile every good killer gen slowdown perk has seem some kind of nerf - pop, pain res, grim, deadlock, dms, brine, ruin, etc. I will say the game is killer sided in low/mid MMR, but when you start going against really good survivors there's literally no time to make mistakes. This is where you need to tunnel and slug, especially when not playing killers like blight/nurse. 90% of the survivor mains on this forum have no idea what it means to play killer at top mmr and it shows.
No, the game is SWF sided at high MMR. And wdym no mistakes? Killers can literally make mistakes for 8 minutes on end and still get a 4k. Let alone that a LOT of mistakes barely have any impact. Swung at a window? Sure, you have a recovery period, but in terms of time-loss, it might actually gain you time because the survivor stuck around the same tile instead of being able to run towards killershack if you walked around. Killers can afford to make quite a few mistakes as their rewards outweigh most common mistakes made. You fail a 50/50 2 times in a row? You only add like 10 seconds at best to a chase. You can win a 50/50 twice in a row soon after too, turning a would be 60 second chase into a 10 second chase. The only times mistakes will be more punishing than rewarding, is if you vault the window from the top floor of Midwich as an example instead of picking up the body and now you have to waste 15 seconds just walking around or decide to just leave that survivor slugged for the time being.
And I main both killer and survivor, and play on high mmr on both. And sure, while my doc might average a 2.7k where if I play Nurse I average a 3.4k. It still means the vast majority of games, I win. No slugging, no tunnelling and no camping untill there are like 2 gens remaining with all 4 survivors alive, and even then, depends on what the map offers me. Because if I played Doc on The Game, you can bet your ass that the entire map is a deadzone against Doc if no one is dead yet. You kinda WANT teammates to be dead, because then it means you still have a significant enough amount of pallets left.
So no, I would say 90% of killers facing high mmr survivors actually have been artificially boosted by slugging and tunnelling at 5 gens, and it shows. -
@Pit_Bull_Love said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886069#Comment_3886069
I mean, I hope you're right, but I have lost all hope with BHVR.
I've explained all in the other comment. Basically, there is millions of money at stake if they dont. They are kinda forced to
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@Pit_Bull_Love said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886064#Comment_3886064
And what would make you think that? Their idea of anti-slug is for the survivor to give up. I do not believe for 2 seconds that they will buff anything on the survivor side, it's nothing but a middle finger to survivors. Very disheartening.
If I'm right, you buy me a drink, if you're right, drinks on me. Deal?
Well, because they have to. Slugging is boring. We know that, they know that. A give-up mechanic is just a quick patch job for the time being. With the release of the FNaF community, they HAVE to fix slugging if they want to maintain at least a decent portion of that player base. If they dont fix slugging, they will have a surge of maybe 5 million players, only to lose 4.95 million players because of how boring being slugged is.
The game isnt fun for new players. Which isnt too much of an issue right now because a lot of new players play because they have friends who play the game. But a surge like FNaF? You bet they need game health updates.
Thats why I am 100% certain that the updates will be to prevent players from being longer in queue than in game, and players to be playing the game actively more than being slugged. Not because I trust BHVR wanting to please current players, but because I trust the business side of BHVR knowing for a fact that retaining FNaF players is their top priority right now and their player base have been screaming that the game isnt as enjoyable as it used to be. And if current players arent happy about the state of the game, what will those 5 million new players think? Players who have bought every FNaF game just because they liked it, even though only 12% of people actually played all the games they bought? Those are 5 million players that might be willing to buy all FNaF related skins the moment they enjoy the game. So I'm betting 5 killer skins on release (the og 4 and springtrap), 3 rare survivor skins for the survivor on release, Feng with a cosplay outfit, Sable and Mikaela with an outfit (so that people will buy those chapters too) and Maybe Legion with some animatronic outfits (like they did for silent hill, but yknow).
Thats a HUGE money maker, and what do you think rakes in the cash more? People who love playing the game with slugging that isnt boring and not being tunnelled out at 5 gens, or people who play the game for maybe an hour to find out some lore, get the feeling of the mechanics and then leave to never return because they've been slugged for 4 minutes 5 games in a row?
I'm betting that the business side of BHVR knows how much money is at stake, hence the 3 week PTB delay to make sure there are some changes that current players can give feedback on to enjoy the game more, so that the business side of BHVR can be satisfied. -
@Pit_Bull_Love said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886048#Comment_3886048
Except they are about to nerf keys and maps in the second half.
Nope, maps will get a rework(I'm assuming green maps to basically be iri maps, and iri maps gaining the ability to see injured survivors and have a bigger range) and probably a range buff overal.
Keys will probably see blood amber nerfed in terms of aura distance(probably 24 meters instead of 32, but green keys buffed in aura duration and other addons being buffed aswell. I am expecting Gold Token to be buffed to 64 meters, Eroded Token to show yourself to other survivors in 64 meters and the duration addons to be doubled in power.
In fact, if they have ever listened to people like me, Purple keys will remain to be 5 seconds, Skeleton keys will be 10 seconds instead of 30 and green keys will be 30 seconds instead of 10. -
@Pit_Bull_Love said:
Why are killer so gloom and doom? Anti-slug...survivors can die sooner. Anti-3 gen... the gen has to be regressed 8x! Anti-face camp is just that. You can still camp, just not in their face. Anti-tunnel..can you count to 10? Awesome!
Let's be real anti-camp will be the same, just nerfed to 8 meters, and we'll just call it anti camp, because why not. And anti-tunnel will be nerfed to 5 seconds.
Killers, rest assured that these changes will be nothing but buffs to you.
anti-camp and anti-tunnel will be buffed. In fact, I am predicting a basekit 2 second DS as thats the only real deterrence for tunnelling, with DS adding 2 seconds to the stun. And Anti-Camp to be increased to 24 meters since killers like Bubba and Trickster can just sit on the edge of anti-camp and guarantee a kill
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@xGodSendDeath said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886030#Comment_3886030
The skill level of the average survivor player has gone up exponentially. If you took the multi thousand hour survivors how they play today and time traveled them to old DbD the killers would never win
And yet, killers who have much more potential, havent gained skill much. Because they didnt need to, because they could rely on slugging and tunnelling instead of being forced to get better.
If you placed modern killers to old DBD, those survivors would never win either. I mean, just patch 1.4. Grab Billy, get a mori easily as its his only iridescent thing he can get from the bloodweb (especially since prestige 3 increases the rate of iridescents). Grab Insidious to prevent BT from happening. Grab Dying Light, Thanatophobia(as that worked with dead survivors too back then) and Tinkerer(cus that increases charge speed). Wait for the random Laurie to unhook. M1 the unhooked survivor and mori them. Now you have a permanent 75% gen progression penalty on survivors at 4 gens remaining. Congrats, now you have generators that take 5 minutes EACH to complete.
Really, modern players would wreck the opponents. -
@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/438839/beware-1v2-is-gonna-be-amazing
How about not finding yourself in such a situation? if you 2 left and cannot fix the generators, you have failed, and forcing the killer to run around the map for 20 minutes and look for you is not the most interesting thing
How about just open the hatch at that point? The killer can leave the slug at the chance that the slug might find the hatch, or close the hatch and possibly trigger Adrenaline. He could go hook that survivor at the risk that the other will find hatch. If someone finds the hatch and the other has a key, then there is a risk of a double hatch escape.
Really a simple solution. -
I've seen the same with console players tho. It's because the cage system isnt perfect. It tends to cage as far away as possible from both killers, meaning killers who know that can predict where it will spawn.
And if you have a mobility killer like Wesker or Blight, that means they can literally just go to where the cage will be.
You can try it yourself too, play killer, look at where your teammate is and then go to the furthest shared location on the map. If you are on opposite sides of RPD, the survivor will literally either spawn near one of the exit gates behind where basement would be, or where the godpallet is in the central hal.
They really arent hard to predict, and that should change. Or they should add Resurgance for the first 4 hooks/cages or smth. -
@xerox8521 said:
It's very nice to see all the planned changes coming but I do wonder how will special killer builds like Mirror Myers work if Map Offerings only increase the chance by 20%? Worst case you throw a lery's offering and land on Ormond as mirror myers making your entire build useless as everyone can see you coming from a million miles away.
Edit: also please make sure plotttwist cannot be abused as a go next mechanic where everyone brings it "just in case" and immediately give up.
I mean, if they just make mirror myers 110% and the ability to gain bloodlust, I dont care which map I get. The whole issue with t1 myers is there is no bloodlust, but the 110% makes it viable to chase if need be. So I really dont know why mirror myers got the downside of less speed.
Like, literally all they have to do, remove the mobility reduction and mirror myers can happen on any map. -
@Valuetown said:
I fully support BHVR's health initiative, as it is years overdue. I do think that these systems are addressing the symptoms rather than core issues with this game, and more gameplay features will need to be changed in the future. Likewise, I do think that implementing both of these features is overkill during the first iteration. The reason survivors would often go next is because there was no way to surrender an already lost match and save some time. With the addition of the surrender option, this pain point is alleviated. I would suggest trying out only the surrender option first, see how the community and matches react to that, and only if it is necessary, go forward with the "go-next" prevention as a follow up.
In addition, my main concern with the "go-next" prevention system is with the verbiage detailing how the system will flag a player:
- "Walking up to a killer and standing still" - what about taking a hit with borrowed time or off the record? What about a protection hit/down to save a teammate that is being tunneled and on death hook?
- "Running to a hook and pointing at it" - what about bloodpoint farming games? What about players that have an emergency and need to leave?
- "Intentionally failing skill checks while on hook" - what about allowing the final survivor to get hatch in a 2v1 situation? What about the players that really can't hit skill checks due to various conditions or having to play the game on mute?
It is impossible to have a programmed system correctly identify these three points described without making wrong judgements. If ONE player is penalized for something they didn't do, the system is a failure, end of story. This system should be a last resort. Contrary to popular belief, systems that hyper-scrutinize player actions in a vain attempt to curb bad behavior end up hurting the game in the long run.
As I stated above, the surrender option should be tested alone to see if it is enough to curb the giving up behaviors we have grown accustomed to seeing. Only if it fails to make any meaningful change should the "go-next" prevention system be implemented.
I have made this discussion in General Discussions to get more of the community's opinions, since nobody but the dev team checks "Feedback and Suggestions" page. Please let this thread live here for a bit so more thoughts can be shared on the matter.
Simple solutions tho:
1. dont start the counter if Endurance is active.
2. dont count it if 3 gens have been finished or if a survivor has already died. And if you need to leave due to an emergency, just DC. That's what it's meant for.
3. also stop counting it once at least 1 survivor has died or 3 gens have been finished.
The whole issue about "go next" and hardcore tunnelling is that the remaining survivors literally do not have the resources to finish the game naturally. You need 3 gens to be gone for 3 survivors to stand a chance in a 3v1 as gen regression basically comes to a halt in a 3v1 if the killer is efficient. But a toolbox and 2 survivors pushing a gen if their teammate can last 40 seconds in chase is enough to finish a 4th gen, but another teammate is almost guaranteed to die to get the 5th gen. Leaving 2 survivors with the exit gates powered, almost guaranteeing a 3k for killers if they've been playing properly.
That is the state you want the game to be in for survivors. 3 gens gone before 1 survivor gets out. Most survivors "go next" at 4 or 5 gens remaining, ruining the game for everyone else. -
@Adam_Francis_Main said:
The survivor mains won and now the devs are forcing killers to play towards survivor fun. Buff for low level killers, buff for SWF nerf for killers m1 killers and killers who don't camp/tunnel/slug.
There are no killer nerfs that "forced" players to tunnel, camp or slug. Killers have seen a ton of buffs, where survivors have mostly seen nerfs.
In fact, I've grown to have the opinion that a lot of killers were MMR boosted because they so heavily relied on slugging, camping and tunnelling to the point that they now have to as it's the only skill they know.
Punishing that behaviour will force those killers to lose MMR and actually play against survivors in their skill range.
And yes, I am fully serious. No killer that is at my level of game knowledge will fall for Deception more than once. If they fall for it in the first place. You know what ALL killers I face that rely heavily on slugging and tunnelling have in common? They fall for Deception 5+ times.Survivors dont have ways to cheese their MMR much. They will almost always be at a level that they face killers that they can handle. But killers have many ways to cheese their MMR. From preventing hatch escapes in a 2v1. To relying on the fact that soloq cant do much against a tunnelling killer and making matches infinitely easier.
Killer mains who claim they need to tunnel and slug need to buckle up and accept that they have relied on cheese methods to boost their MMR, and are now mad that their toys are being taken away and are forced to lose against survivors they never should have been facing in the first place.
I am only kinda sad for Trapper mains, as his kit only really works because its camp focussed. -
@CLHL said:
The game will self-balance as it has always done. If killers are not able to do 12 hooks, they will look for other alternatives. The Rancor roulette and end-game builds are still a possibility, and both will cause a stir if they become meta.
As long as there is no base-kit Unbreakable, I don't care which option they propose. But I'm sure that they will add something more aside the bleed-out or surrender options.
In the worst-case scenario, the killrate decline will force them to make drastic balance changes. Although, many survivors are probably not ready for matches with chases that never exceeds the 20 seconds mark. If they want 12-hook matches and nothing is going to be done about the repair time, killers are going to have to be much more oppressive.
You cant increase gen repair time, people are already borderline ignoring gens because they are getting boring. Upping the gentimes simply means survivors quit playing and start going for other games that might be less balanced, but more fun to play. And basekit unbreakable isnt a bad idea. It really isnt.
As for the "if killers are not able to do 12 hooks, they will look for alternatives" is a lie and you know it.
Lets go back to 2-3 years ago. Killers had a killrate of about 55-60% in general, with some killers like Trapper and Myers barely touching 49%. Gen regression perks were WORSE, survivor perks and items were BETTER, gen spawns and tile spawns were more SURVIVOR favoured. DS was stronger, Unbreakable was stronger. Yet, killers rarely tunnelled unless it was top 1% players.
Gentimes have increased by 10 seconds. All killer actions have been reduced by 10%. Tiles have been rebalanced. Maps have been made smaller. Toolboxes have been adjusted. Killers have been buffed across the board. Survivor perks have been mostly nerfed, and those that recieved buffs are still weaker than the strongest perks. Everytime I play killer and just hook for the sake of hooking, I get 3k's more easily than compared to 2 years ago.
Aka, hooking has been made easier, yet killers have increased slugging and tunnelling. Why? Because that too, has been made easier. Killers dont tunnel because they have to, they tunnel because they can. Killers dont slug because they have to, they do so because they can. Basekit unbreakable will do nothing except deter slugging in the current meta. The only thing you dont want it to do is infinite pickups, so just give 1 pickup per hookstate remaining. If a survivor hasnt been hooked, 3 pickups. If they have been hooked twice, 1 pickup. Easy counter is to simply hook them. -
@SoGo said:
Reminder:
Anti-slug will only likely impact the extreme cases, as they explained in the post.
Anti-camp will likely just be a smaller improvement to the already existing AFC mechanic.
As for the anti-tunnel, I'm not sure what will it do.
I'm assuming a form of basekit DS. It's the only deterrence to tunnelling that will work. Maybe even a 2 second stun basekit with DS as a perk adding 2 seconds. And maybe a DS rework where it will remove all charges from the killer power if possible as an additional deterrence (Nurse wouldnt be able to double blink right after a DS and Blight wont be able to dash. Slinger, Clown, Huntress and Trickster would need to reload, that kinda stuff). It wouldnt really interfere with tunnelling too much, but it would be really annoying for the killer to tunnel to the point that its better to just wait for their target to touch a gen first.
Anti-camp would probably have an extended 8-16 meters to prevent people from cheesing it, or they would disable killer powers in general for a certain amount of time if they are within the range of a freshly unhooked survivor. (Hag, Bubba, Trapper, Trickster and Twins are 3 killers that can just wait right outside the anti-camp range and still eat through basekit bt as if it was a cookie). That wouldnt apply once all gens are gone so those killers can still guarantee a kill, they just no longer can guarantee trading hookstates. This would obviously have to come with something like basekit 10% pain res on all hooks when survivors are hooked for the first time.
Anti-slug will hopefully just be tenacity basekit (crawl and recover at the same time, and maybe a bit more crawlspeed) and a way for 2 slugged survivors to pick each other up as a deterrence for mass slugging. That's all slugging genuinely needs in the current meta. Killers would be forced to hook or risk losing all pressure.
Another really good anti-tunnel mechanic would to simply be disabling gen regression/gen blocking perks once 1 survivor dies, while boosting their powers by 25%-50%. The number 1 issue I have with Pain Res and Grim Embrace is that a killer could tunnel out a survivor at 4 gens, and still proc 40 seconds of Grim Embrace. Force killers to choose between getting 40 seconds of Grim Embrace and Gen regression perks, or killing a survivor, and most would want to keep those perks as long as they can untill they feel forced to get a kill.