Defnotmeghead
Defnotmeghead
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915641#Comment_3915641
Splitting gens is kinda forced due to gen regression perks, and even then only really effective against low mobility killers. But granted, somewhat of an issue(altho there are basekit counters to it, otherwise low mobility killers wouldnt have killrates above 2.5 on average).
Splitting gens is not forced because of gen slowdowns, gen slowdowns are forced because of gen splitting. Basically the whole purpose of the most important perk to use as killer, Corrupt Intervention, is to make gen splitting more difficult.
Saboing is not something you can rely on much and requires quite a few perks and specific addons to happen more than once a game succesfully. Slugging and tunnelling does not require any of that.
This is now comparing apples and oranges in terms of resources for using a strategy. If we are going by this logic, gen splitting doesn''t require you to use any perks/addons/resources as survivor and is the most powerful survivor strategy and got even more powerful with further nerfs to gen slowdowns. If you are going to give sabo as comparison, then give it with a killer strategy that actually requires perks or addons to be executed.
I would be 10000x more okay with tunnelling and slugging if it actively relied on perks to be consistently viable, but its not. It's basekit.
as i already said, splitting gens is also basekit, but compared to tunneling, it's absolutely necessary to bring Corrupt Intervention as 99% of killers to stand a chance against competent team.
Tunneling is already 50/50 hit or miss when playing significant portion of killers when survivor has no anti-tunneling perks at all. Tunneling requires survivors to make big mistakes to be executed successfully, splitting gens doesn't require killer to make just one small mistake in first chase.
Anti-camp isnt strong, anti-tunnelling isnt strong, anti-slugging isnt strong, otherwise camping, tunnelling and slugging wouldnt be an issue, now would it?
Anti-camp is overwhelmingly strong, anti-tunneling is overwhelmingly strong, anti-slugging is very strong in competent teams.
Now, if you want to talk about how "problematic camping, tunneling and slugging is", why don't you take a deeper look at it. Primary counter to tunneling is being good in chases. With the average chase time of 60s per WHOLE MATCH, not per single chase, how would you even expect people to counter tunneling.
It's the prime example of how average survivor player doesn't want to learn how to counter killer strategies at all, they just want further anti anti anti mechanics and basekit perks to be slapped until they wouldn't need to give any skill input towards the game.
And hooking is more viable than ever in DBD history, wdym? The issue is that people like you just hook willy-nilly on the closest hook whenever you hook. Go take strategic hooks, go that extra 5 second time investment so survivors are forced to hooktrade or end up multiple people injured.
First of all, survivor is the one controlling the direction of the chase in most cases (unless we are talking about Brutal zoning Blight, Kaneki or edge map chases, but those are 50/50s in terms of chance of killer to redirect the chase). If survivor is aware they are about to go down, they will intentionally force you to down them at a spot where you CAN'T get a beneficial/strategical hook. You are talking as if strategic hooking is so simple and easy when it's the thing that is simply induced by survivor mistakes.
Also, take a look at how many meta survivor perks have hooks as condition to be activated and then think a bit more about it.
"all of these strats are meta cus average player doesnt learn counterplay"
Except the same can be true of anti-camp(which only works if you camp), anti-tunnel(which only works if you tunnel) and anti-slug(which only works if you slug). Not even talking about how if tunnelling is not viable unless as a last resort, anti-tunnel perks will also be basically non-existant in use. Right now they are top 10 because of how viable tunnelling is as a normal strat
anti-facecamp is only meant to prevent toxic usage of camping, not camping as a strategy. Anti-camp perks literally work both if you camp or you don't camp (they also work as an anti-tunnel because hooked survivor is "frozen" and killer can't attempt to tunnel them unless they are unhooked, meaning greeding survivor on hook can often give you big advantage even when killer isn't camping.
Anti-tunneling works only if you tunnel? Really? After so many years of discussions being held about aggressive usage of anti-tunneling perks, we are still using the good ol' "just don't tunnel" as a defense for how strong anti-tunneling perks outside of actual tunneling are?
Anti-slug also works in order to force lose-lose situations when in combo with some perks + with some combos you can literally pick up a survivor killer has basically just downed.
I actually truly recommend you to watch some actual high skill level matches, scrims with no limitations or whatever you want just to be aware o how stuff you are trying to present as mid is actually strong and how this game is much more deeper in terms of decision-making, balance problems and various other stuff than you think :)
I can very easily contradict your entire statement by simply saying: blood event still had a killrate higher than 50%, despite corrupt intervention and gen regression not working, despite blood gens being generally faster to finish.
Besides, Corrupt Intervention rarely shows up when I play -
@100PercentBPMain said:
I use the yellow one, since i like Susie's "grrr" noises the best :)
I rarely use the skin as it is "pay to lose". Legion is thin and tiny but this skin makes you fat and tall. Why did I buy it? You used to be able to do a glitch to break cosmetics, and I thought "Headless Legion" was the funniest thing ever. You had the body suit with a floating mask! Was buying an outfit for a glitch silly? Maybe, but i don't regret it. It was worth the laughs.
The outfit is fun for Halloween though, or 2v8! Hopefully they add Pyramid Head soon!
I only bought Susie cus I think Susie is vocally the best Legion, so basically the same reason. But I kinda concur it being pay to lose. It's more an intimidation. It's very easy to turn around around walls where the ears stick out and make survivors think you started walking the other way because its quite a visual distance. So it definitely has benefits. But intimidation for sure. Same why I bring Dwelf to matches outside winter holidays.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915696#Comment_3915696
The balance problem is: you also get basically all of that for slugging someone. And that's why hooking loses out on pure time efficiency.
Which is what gives us the current headache; not hooking too easily slides into being better than hooking, and when hooking is good it also leads to less-fun outcomes.
And thats why slugging is an issue and needs a nerf
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@Prometheus1092 said:
With so many survivor sided maps I think a few killer sided should be left as they are
There arent that many survivor sided maps, and all survivor sided maps together give a benefit thats less than Haddonfield.
And yeah, ancient Haddonfield was basically as strong for survivors as modern Haddonfield, but ancient Haddonfield saw more balancing changes than modern Haddonfield has. Modern Haddonfield needs breakable walls instead of free open holes at the very least -
@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
I think the longest recorded in the modern day was 53 minutes. Chess Merchant vs. Team Eternal.
There were talks about matches going until server timeout during the Chess Merchant era, but I have not seen recordings of that. Servers time out at 60 minutes (1 hour).Back in the day, before the time limit came along, I have heard examples of hatch standoffs that took several hours. The most stubborn players would often end up in ridiculous stalemates that would last for way too long. This is the reason behind the End Game Collapse and the subsequent one-hour time limit.
I think the longest one recorded in history is about 6,5 hours long. A 6 hour hatch stand-off from lefty(aka Theentityslefthand) and he often actually won them. in fact, people literally went to watch his stream for long stand-offs.
I dont think there have been longer games than that. -
These surveys tend to come about 2-3 months after release, when people have had time to learn to play and learn to counterplay. I know it feels like literal months already due to how common he is being used, but its barely been a month.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888002#Comment_3888002
this argument is literally on the level of BHVR's decision to completely destroy Skull Merchant as an attempt of damage control in order to actually make community go quiet on her until she gets properly reworked and rebuffed again (not soon lol), and is quite literally looking at the aspect of game health from quite an one-sided perspective.
These strategies are insanely unfun to go against, so they shouldn't be encouraged, not like they are now.
splitting gens is also very unfun to face, Boil Over and sabo strats are also very unfun to face, yet sabo was buffed for example.
If these nerfs are done right, it will create a much better foundation for the game. And then, the killers that will start struggling too much, can definitely be buffed in more healthy ways as well. So I am very hopfeful that BHVR will implement proper anti-tunneling, anti-camping and anti-slugging changes to bring this game into a much better fundamental state.
anti-camping, anti-tunneling and anti-slugging perks are insanely strong right now. There is no healthy way to nerf camping, tunneling and slugging at the moment because killer's main objective, hooking, is already on dead legs.
Doing any kind of straight up nerf and then waiting to see how things will go over time to see what buffs killers should receive as compensation is literally extremely irresponsible thing to do.
All pof these strats are still meta because average player has no intention to ever learn the counterplay. Do you think they would be so popular if people using them noticed it doesn't yield success to them nearly as often as they think it does? Of course not.
Splitting gens is kinda forced due to gen regression perks, and even then only really effective against low mobility killers. But granted, somewhat of an issue(altho there are basekit counters to it, otherwise low mobility killers wouldnt have killrates above 2.5 on average).
Saboing is not something you can rely on much and requires quite a few perks and specific addons to happen more than once a game succesfully. Slugging and tunnelling does not require any of that.
I would be 10000x more okay with tunnelling and slugging if it actively relied on perks to be consistently viable, but its not. It's basekit.
Anti-camp isnt strong, anti-tunnelling isnt strong, anti-slugging isnt strong, otherwise camping, tunnelling and slugging wouldnt be an issue, now would it?
And hooking is more viable than ever in DBD history, wdym? The issue is that people like you just hook willy-nilly on the closest hook whenever you hook. Go take strategic hooks, go that extra 5 second time investment so survivors are forced to hooktrade or end up multiple people injured.
"all of these strats are meta cus average player doesnt learn counterplay"
Except the same can be true of anti-camp(which only works if you camp), anti-tunnel(which only works if you tunnel) and anti-slug(which only works if you slug). Not even talking about how if tunnelling is not viable unless as a last resort, anti-tunnel perks will also be basically non-existant in use. Right now they are top 10 because of how viable tunnelling is as a normal strat -
@Inosennatoki said:
They kill the haste build, but didn't do anything about Gen'speed.
The generator speed should be reduced, If they remove meta haste and hindered.
Now M1 killer is dying because they is slow.
You cant adjust genspeeds anymore, unless you're willing to kill gen regression perks as a whole to do at most 5% damage, and perks like thanatophobia to add at most 5% slowdown.
Genspeeds are fine as is. High tier killers absolutely do not need regression perks, they could solely use aura perks and win games. The issue lies at low mobility, and its difficult to improve low mobility without accidentally buffing high mobility. My personal wish is that, presuming that Wraith and Spirit will have their increased lunge rates be considered M2's, m1's will simply add bloodlust. Each hit gets you in the next tier up to tier 3, and downing someone reduces it to 0 again (so you wont be able to abuse it).
It would be a good rework for bloodlust, which is kinda out of date as it is now (it is rewarding bad killers who make bad choices, reworking it to give speed after a hit would reward good choices instead). It would bring back hit and run a little bit, breaking pallets or getting stunned no longer resets it, so it would IMO be a good change that could help low mobility killers gain a bit of mobility in the game.
But no, no more slowing down gens. They are already a snoozefest. Slowing them down any more will just lead to players leaving the game. No one wants to sit at a screen pressing spacebar every 5 seconds while waiting for a 100 second loading bar to be finished, only to be interrupted and do it all over again. -
@coolgue1 said:
I mean killer have BK hast buff for loosing it called BL hast perk still stack on killer because Bal is still in the game when it activated this is purely a nerf to survivors and barley and
killer at all
in terms of meta perks, sure. But Play With Your Food, NOED, Batteries Included, Machine Learning, Devour Hope, Furtive Chase, Unbound, all perks that are now mutually exclusive with each other, not even talking about Clown, who has 50% of his power deny all those perks entirely making it effectively inaccessible to him.
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@Leon_Loves_Cheryl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909918#Comment_3909918
Dark Theory is a teamwide effect. 3% sounds like a perfectly good deal to me.
7% wouldn't be problematic on Batteries. You have to give up a generator for it to even work in the first place, and then you have to take a chase in an area that doesn't strategically make sense.
There is no way of balancing all haste and hindrance effects,
Yes there is. It's just numbers. When you remove variables, numbers become easier to manage.
especially since most of them were designed in a way that supplements other haste effects.
That's why they are being changed to be balanced based on their individual merit rather than be supplemental.
As an example, Clown would literally be unable to reliably use haste perks at all, since his bottle gives 10% haste, overriding all other haste effects, it is an entire section of perks that now cant be used, and its quite a large section. You'd just be risking giving survivors a haste boost instead.
I imagine they will make exceptions for certain killers, events, and mechanics otherwise yes, it wouldn't make any sense; I agree.
Except, 3% doesnt mean a thing if:
It takes 14 seconds to place, can be snuffed at any time (meaning that distance-wise, you need to have people running through the boon range for a total of 2000 meters(aka, a total of 8 whole minutes) to recoup those 14 seconds spend on the totem. And sure, 3% means that a chase might last long enough for a gen to pop that otherwise wouldnt, but that's only effective long-term like the next reason:
Made for this is 3% and makes it effectively not exist and works perfectly with Dead Hard.
Babysitter/BT (which, also wont stack btw, so why even bring Babysitter?), that 2% addition right now with the 17% boost from guardian+basekit BT was perfect to give the survivor enough distance to not be interesting to tunnel. But now, survivors only gain 10% which makes them easy tunnel material.
"You have to give up a generator for it to even work in the first place and then you have to take a chase in an area that doesn't strategically make sense."
Except, survivors prioritize gens in area's that are good for looping. So thats not true.
"Yes there is. It's just numbers. When you remove variables, numbers become easier to manage."
As a software tester, not true. Numbers become easier to manage if you catagorize them, not by removing variables. In fact, that often makes them harder to balance. It is much, MUCH easier to have 3 variables, like, lets say a cash register. Its easier to have coupons stack in ways that arent always predictable than to have seperate coupons that effectively do the same thing for different items that cannot be used.
"That's why they are being changed to be balanced based on their individual merit rather than be supplemental."
I made a feedback post too, I instead urged them to seperate the sources of the speedboost because that is easy to balance. That contains an entire list of perks I would add in a stackable list, because you cannot fairly balance them. Take Play With Your Food or NOED. Both are not too great on their own, but perfectly supplemental. If you were to buff the numbers to make them good on their own, you have really broken perks. If you rework the mechanics surrounding the perks to make the haste balanced, you would kinda be forced to remove the instadown from NOED and Play With Your Food would very quickly be too easy to gain stacks on.
It is much, MUCH easier to just seperate them. Is a new haste perk too strong to be supplemental? Move it to the other list and slightly buff the numbers. Is the perk too weak to be a main effect? move it to the supplemental list and tweak the numbers. It becomes unphatomably easy to balance haste by just implementing a secondary list that DOES stack, while having a primary list that DOESNT stack. -
@dbd900bach said:
I'm really not understanding why people have an issue with this to begin with. Its a flat buff to a whole range of perks which is massively a good thing and might make some worth using while simultaneously improving long term game health for future perks and add-ons. It also takes a lot of stress off the devs shoulders now that they no longer need to worry about how certain perks will interact or handicap them just so they can exist in obscurity together.
How any of that isn't a good thing is beyond me. All I can think of is selfish players not wanting to let go of their haste/hinder combos because they don't know how to live without them.
Simple example:
Dark Theory and Batteries Included, give 2 and 5% respectively. Too weak to be used on their own as a sole effect, they are used mainly to amplify other haste effects.
3% and 6% wont make much of a difference as most haste effects will override them anyway.
So 4% and 7% are the lowest numbers you can give them to be somewhat viable on small maps, you need 5-7% and 10% to make them viable on bigger maps.
But whoops, problem, Midwich exists, and 4% boon on the top layer of midwich while a survivor is being chased at the bottom, or a generator on the top layer while the killer chases you with 7% haste downstairs are both too strong of an effect on those maps.
So, how to balance them in a way where they are balanced on smaller maps, while also still viable to use on bigger maps? Keep them at 2-3% and 5%, and make them stack.
Not even talking how Clown would legit be unable to use the entire range of perks, since his 10% haste is the biggest haste a killer can get.
Its best to split the perks up, make SOME perks exclusive, and put the rest in a seperate section that DOES stack. You can easily switch them from one group to another and easily tweak numbers -
So, 2 problems with this:
What numbers would you give Dark Theory and Batteries Included?
2% and 5%, even upping that to 3% and 6% is going to make those perks far too weak to use except on small maps, and as other haste effects would literally override them in a heartbeat
But, 4%+ on Dark Theory and 7%+ on Batteries included is problematic on multi-level maps like Midwich, Game and Hawkins. But still FAR too weak to be used on bigger maps as the sole source of the haste effect.
There is no way of balancing all haste and hindrance effects, especially since most of them were designed in a way that supplements other haste effects.
As an example, Clown would literally be unable to reliably use haste perks at all, since his bottle gives 10% haste, overriding all other haste effects, it is an entire section of perks that now cant be used, and its quite a large section. You'd just be risking giving survivors a haste boost instead. -
@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909499#Comment_3909499
Nice idea!
I am a bit hesitant, since Vigil is already good enough. It would depend on the numbers, but most people would still run Vigil over a boon because it's completely passive and covers more status effects.
Yeah, I actually have issues with that effect being part of a boon, since you have 2 results:
1. its too small of an effect, making it equally useless even when stacked with Vigil(since Vigil can be stacked)
2. its too big of an effect, making it too strong especially when stacked with Vigil(since Vigil can be stacked)I did the quick maths on it, and assuming 2-4 Vigils, 35% is too much for the boon, on a map like Hawkins you can have the boon upstairs, use Fixated and literally infinite the killer. But for 1 or 0 Vigils, you need a minimum of 40% to make the boon be worth it.
I would actually do something differently:
Allow survivors to lose exhaustion at ~65% rate while running inside the boon radius. Even 4 Vigils means you need to walk for 25 seconds in chase, which is hard to do inside the radius of a boon, the downside is that you cant 99% sprintburst and enter the radius because its forced to trigger and its actually an interesting boon to play around with. -
@Bodark said:
You can fill a bloodgen by yourself before two survivors working on a regular gen can pop it. It can’t be regressed by any gen perks at all either.
Yeah, honestly, I am about to suggest 4 changes:
1. Have the current fuel be in the game, but only 1 and in the basement, its risky, has a lot of downsides if it goes wrong, rarely is nearby a blood gen.
2. Have the nerfed fuel lose fuel twice as fast when running, and about 60% efficiency what it has now (walking would now legit be faster than running, right now, running is faster than walking.
3. Remove the kicking block from the blood gens
4. If you m1 a survivor (m1 for a good reason), survivors lose half their remaining fuel or half of total fuel (personally, I would go half of remaining fuel as it keeps their item in their hands longer, which indicates vaults, its gonna be empty by the time they are out of chase -
@Blueberry said:
Actual tunneling I see very rarely. What I see very, very commonly is people “saying” the killer tunneled when they really didn’t. I find people tend to have a ridiculously broad definition of tunneling. Like if they go down twice in a row regardless of anything, they’re calling it tunneling. Like even when I play killer I intentionally don’t pay attention to hook states since I try not to tunnel and I still get called a tunneler quite often. People just throw the word around to take accountability off themselves in my experience. Similarly in line with the amount of swf groups that call “stream sniper” on basically any game they lose.
I see it too often as survivor that a killer legit drops chase at 5 gens to tunnel a freshly unhooked survivor. As a killer, I can see how people think I am tunnelling when legit I just mixed up Claudette 1 for Claudette 2
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@danielmaster87 said:
When casual interests converge, this is basically what you get: people wanting a killer nerfed because supposedly you can pick him up day 1 and win non-stop, and because they want easy killers for some special events, they're rushing to get said killer nerfed so that they simply won't have to deal with him. Are the interests of the more competitive players or killer players taken into consideration with any of this? I don't think so.
I get it. Coming from Smash Bros experience, I'm used to the feeling of "Things were going so great until this character came along. Now I've got to deal with them." But at the end of the day, you do in fact have to deal with them. No other developer would even put up with these ridiculous requests about nerfing characters who just barely came out. How long has it been? 1, 2 days? At least try to learn counterplay before you ask for such a thing.
Running with that theme, you're gonna have to face strong killers running meta eventually. Why prolong the inevitable? This is what made no sense about the "low BP cap good" arguments. Why not face a new killer with a complete competitive loadout? You'd be facing a killer at their peak strength, but wielded by a non-peak experience player. Even if the player has somehow mastered the killer after 48 hours of him being available, again how do you turn a chance to learn and improve into such a negative thing?
I mean, you can effectively win non-stop with kaneki. You only really lose against 3/4 man swfs running full meta. Thats kinda the problem
Besides, why play the event if you're just gonna sweat? Just go play normals, you're not playing the event for the fun factor that is attached to it anyway. That was especially true for chaos mode, it didnt even give extra BP, it was just meant for chaos and yet slugging was at an all time high because "no gen regression perks" THEN GO PLAY NORMALS AND PICK YOUR OWN PERKS.
As for Smash Bros, thats a different scenario, because characters are balanced for a 1v1. You can rely on a new character basically having very little to no issues, and if they do have issues, they wont tend to be found untill weeks after their release when people have gotten good enough at that character to start to use those mechanics.
As for counterplay, after In DBD, its fairly easy to tell what can and cant be used as counterplay. When you pretty much get the "4 man can handle Killer X" comments, you have a problem, because the counterplay to that killer is constant communication. Skull Merchant was not counterable. You needed a 4 man squad to counter her because you needed that level of constant information. Kaneki, pretty similar, ignoring his addons, you need to know where he is going so you can pre-run to a tile that he has issues with. If you dont, he can down you before you get there.
Killer mains, right now, are the most entitled players. Whenever players, survivor mains and mixed players, ask for a bit more balance (aka, aiming for that 50% escaperate that was promised, instead of the 37% escaperate we have), killer mains jump on the wagon to complain that it shouldnt be handed to them. Despite the fact that killers average a 3k nowadays due to it being handed to them.
And Kaneki needs a nerf, no way around it, I've played him against players I have issues with when I play Nurse, I demolished them. Nothing they did for counterplay mattered. Mended to remove the mark? Doesnt work for the last mark, gave me enough time to mark someone else. Crouched behind obstacles? Didnt matter, still hit them. Broke line of sight? Didnt matter, autoaim allowed me to still hit them through a solid wall. Hiding in lockers to hide information? Doesnt work, cus mask addon, next game they all brought Hardened or Calm Spirit just to counter that stupidly OP addon. He genuinely is too easy to pick up and his counterplay is basically non-existent, there is some, sure, but you can use perks to compensate for that counterplay. That's a problem. -
@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905706#Comment_3905706
true, I agree, and I imagine you’re exactly right if they are cognizant and choosing their fate. Counter point, Possibly if survivors get too crafty good killers are suffering though, maybe throw an obsession condition on it if that happens that rewards killer more and makes doing things like that riskier on the survivor side so they aren’t beating the brakes off people like myers ?
I mean, for it to be super beneficial, everyone would need to sit on seperate gens and the chased survivors should be chased the entire time. You can literally counter the perk by walking backwards towards them, or by mindgaming them once early in chase. The cooldown once they get hit is 60 seconds. Most hits happen within the first 15 seconds of chase and 5% really isnt much.
As an example, a 90 second gen with 5% would take 86 seconds if uninterrupted. A single generator kick, no other perks applied, adds 4.5 seconds.
So, lets assume you get in chase with someone who has quick gambit, but they dont know where their teammates are and pass all their gens. You, due to their looping angles, are capable to kick all gens at least once without losing any significant distance.
Congrats, now Quick Gambit literally has had 0 impact if you end up chasing the same survivor for the full 90 second duration without hitting them.
It's really not that impactful. You often need 2-3 gen progression perks if you want to counter the impact of 1 killer regression perk. You would need the best 16 generator progression perks + commodius toolboxes to counter the strongest 4 killer slowdown meta perks.
Quick Gambit is considered a bottom half perk. It doesnt need a buff, it's fine at what it does, but it is far from a good perk. -
@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905599#Comment_3905599
This would be a problem if it wasn't m1 killer essentially it's just better legion, but the survivors are crying as if they are seeing the killer first time
hough nothing new I remember how the trickster was called OP and second nurse in the first week of releaseSo, problems with Ghoul:
2 of his addons are insane tunnel material, I dont know how that got past quality assurance. Having survivors scream with no counter to it means free info. No counterplay but perks (which is insane for the amount of info it gives). Like, imagine Doctor, but hiding in lockers no longer works. And Doctor is a low mobility killer.
Exhaustion perks? Useless. You're stunned for the entire duration, which isnt as bad if the ability didnt have MASSIVE autoaim.
Pallets dont matter, gets you marked and he vaults/recovers faster than Wesker if you're already marked. (He also recovers faster than Wesker, as in, you can gain MUCH more distance against a Wesker.
He isnt top tier, but he is uncounterable and that is a problem regardless what you are talking about. -
@HeroLives said:
yeah that one is kind of cracked. It’s good if one person has it, if people know what they’re doing, it sucks and laughable when people can’t hold up in chase. I’d probably nerf if you start noticing a bunch of people stacking it in the highest mmr, Sometimes killers like to chase good survivors to get better, and I don’t think they should be punished heavily for learning. For every 1 god tier killer there’s like 5 that won’t break a pallet when they should. I would keep my eye on this one. It is super situational though due to variety.
As a rebuttal, if you like to chase the good survivor to get better, having a perk like this would actually be recommended. You dont wanna be stuck chasing 1 survivor for 8 minutes, and if you do good, you actually get rewarded.
Chasing the good survivor to get better is basically already somewhat giving up on winning the game. Its an exchange. You cant expect to knowingly make a mistake and not get "punished" for it. -
@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/439281/maybe-my-most-controversial-take
wow what about all the nerfs to all the killers over the years also survivor skill getting better it's amazing how you can just cherry pick like that
like all the gen regression nerfs or gen kick limit or the upcoming knockout change and the anti slugging changes and probably removal in the 2nd phase
it's like you haven't played high mmr killer in your life and haven't figured out that if survivors know how to play the game is really easy to will nice if the person who gets chased and knows how to loop and the team rushes gens it's an auto lose for killer and that's not even mentioning ds head on shoulder otr or any other perks that shift it more in the survivors favor
Killers have, on average, recieved more buffs than nerfs.
Survivors have, on average, recieved many more nerfs than buffs.
Also, slugging isnt gonna be removed, but a lot of basekit changes will happen because slugging is the only basekit mechanic that doesnt have basekit counterplay. Like, its effectively going back to 2016 DBD and finding out you cannot damage generators. Imagine that instead of adding basekit damaging gens, they required you to use a perk to damage gens otherwise they wont regress. Sounds fun right? Ofcourse not. And slugging is the most boring gameplay mechanic survivors face. It needed a rework back in 2021.
Also wanna cherry pick?
Dead Hard, MFT, Killers getting 10% time reduction in ALL actions basekit. Survivors lose 10% in speedboost durations. Endurance got reworked to no longer stack (it was hard to trigger before the DH rework, but you could use Styptic after BT and endure the hit). Medkits and healing getting a MASSIVE nerf. Boons only having recieved nerfs ever since their introduction, and only 1 buff to Circle of Healing to make it somewhat viable after all the nerfs. Before Shoulder The Burden, the last perk that was worth being Meta was MFT with Gabriel. That's 2 years before a NEW perk shook up survivor meta a bit. Killers get at least 2 per year that heavily shake up the meta (From last anniversary to now: Weave Attunement, Jagged compass for mobility killers, Languid Touch is used by a lot of killers since it effectively shuts down Exhaustion perks, each making certain builds and killers a lot more viable).
Like, its like you dont pay attention to changes. And if the person who gets chased knows how to loop better than the killer, then the killer deserves to lose for refusing to let that survivor go.
As for the perks you mentioned. DS is rarely ran, and is only ran because killers tunnel, a non-issue if you dont tunnel. Same for OTR, only an issue if you tunnel. Shoulder the Burden literally gives exposed for 60 seconds. So not only do you have a survivor spreading the hooks, you have a survivor who is now about to be dead on hook. And im not even going to talk about Head-On. It takes 2.8 seconds to charge up, you can easily avoid it and only in a SWF might you have issues with it, but then just bait and hit.
And I play killer too, its just that when I play killer, I barely see issues. I dont tunnel unless I need to at 3-2 gens remaining, I barely run gen regression and gain my pressure from hooking survivors closer to objectives I want to defend rather than the nearest hook possible and only slug when I am not given the option to hook. I'm getting 2.9 kills on average with B and C tier killers more than consistently enough to know my MMR is high, especially since I face tournament squads every once in a while(aka, actual tournament players) where non-high mmr killers dont face tournament squads. I just have very little complaints towards current survivor meta. I still have them and they are worth complaining about.
Like the Syringe should heal based on the leftover charges in the medkit instead of just healing the survivor at the cost of 1 charge.
But those issues are minor compared to the tunnel and slugging issues. Gen regression meta alone is enough to not be forced to tunnel, yet people do, because (and this isnt an insult, but like you) have been boosted by basekit mechanics that are not a significant expression of skill. -
@NarkoTri1er said:
because current ecosystem of this game is already punishing spreading hooks enough
Then why give a reward based on spreading hooks that punishes survivors even more than they already are by losing an entire survivor?
Grim Embrace is designed to spread hooks and avoid tunnelling someone out. So why reward the exact opposite of what it is designed for, MORE than what it is being designed for? -
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893465#Comment_3893465
I'd still want exhaustion to be disabled when a certain amount of gens are done. They do exactly the same thing Grim Embrace does, buy time. Except exhaustion is WAY more available than Grim and way better in the majority of scenarios.
See, I agree with you that Grim isnt as available, generally speaking. But when talking top 5 strongest killers (where you are most likely to see Grim anyway), Grim isnt that difficult to trigger, and exhaustion doesnt really matter. Those are also the games where players are most-likely to die before Grim even gets the 4th stack (which is overkill if 3 survivors are left). The 4th stack should be used to kill a survivor because you definitely need someone dead if you've spread out hooks that much, but it shouldnt activate if someone is already dead, because then you can use it to kill a survivor once one is already dead, making it literally impossible for survivors to push out more than 1 gen.
Which is why I always state that Grim should get a buff in general, one that does block gens for 10-12 seconds per hook so that all killers can benefit from it, and maybe up the 40 seconds to 60 seconds too so that all killers can benefit from it, but have it disabled once a survivor dies so high mobility killers dont benefit from something that low mobility killers cant benefit from.
Exhaustion perks for survivors, overall, are pretty balanced. The killers who mainly have issues with them are killers that have issues even if there are no exhaustion perks in the match. And if they get tweaked to no longer have issues when no exhaustion perks are in the match, chances are, they can also deal if exhaustion perks are in the match.
Effectively saying, killers tend to be balanced around what is available for survivors, but not as much to what is available to killers. Even Myers and Trapper can somewhat deal with Lithe and Sprintburst, but soloq cant deal against a tunnelling Blight or Nurse who uses Grim due to lack of comms. -
@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893562#Comment_3893562
sure thing my guy
extremely negative. As the comp community in DBD increased, so has the toxicity and negativity in the community. Comp ruins game communities. The moment someone adopts a "comp" mindset, fun is no longer the reason for playing or a priority. you begin to blame others for your failures and use tactics and behaviors that ruin the enjoyment of everyone else to feed your comp ego of "winning is everything". It turns a game that was originally designed as a party game, into a sweat fest that is a festering ground for anger and "us vs them". as for if it was a net positive for player population. Net negative undoubtable. August of 2018 had 20k more players than the game has now. The peak of DBD (outside of chapter releases) happens when 2v8 occurs, because of how casual, fun, and non-competitive it is. I know significantly more players who quit DBD because of how competitive it has gotten, than people who have stayed or got into for the competitiveness. In fact I have yet to play with or meet someone who has positive things to say about the DBD competitive community and playstyle.
I would actually argue the opposite in general, I dont think comp is the issue. Comp has always been a (small) part of DBD. My issue is that MMR being the main reason for matchmaking has made people more comp because they feel they HAVE to be comp. And if they dont play comp, they lose more often than they win. And while I am 100% standing with the "you've relied on methods that arent really an expression of skill" like slugging and tunnelling at 5 gens, therefor they will always be facing opponents that are better than them skill-wise and forces them to rely even harder on methods that dont express skill. I am also standing with the community not being given much of a different option.
Like, we dont know what our MMR is. We dont know how long it takes for MMR to degrade (like, lets say I have accidentally boosted myself to 2000, but skill-wise, my MMR is closer to 1600. With those changes implemented, how many games will need to be lost for me to reach that? How long do I not have to play killer or survivor to get into that range? If its -10 per month of not playing and -5 per game, I need to have an insane amount of losses).
I almost feel like if the changes do get pushed through, players in general should be given to, just this once, lower their MMR by 10-25%. Or have players fill in a survey where if they state they feel like they are forced to slug and tunnel as killer, and/or feel like they need to rely on toolboxes with BNP, their MMR gets lowered by 15% without their knowledge (which, I personally would disagree with, but whatever reason there is to keep MMR hidden, then this should be hidden too). It's just going to give players an easier time to adjust and stop relying on methods they dont enjoy using while winning the majority of their games. Because killers who slug and tunnel dont feel like they won when they did win, and survivors who escape through sweating dont feel like they won either.
And maybe, just maybe, add a statistic on how often they actually win games, and what the average winrate is at their MMR. Because if Trapper wins 15% of games at 1500 MMR, and I win 20% of games at 1500 MMR as Trapper, then I have information that despite losing 80% of my games, I still do better than the average Trapper.
We, as players, need feedback. Because right now the only feedback is "did I win or did I lose?", which means that even if you win 95% of your games, you're not gonna care because of the 5% you lost and those felt like unfair losses, where all the wins felt deserved. But if you know that, relative to other players in your bracket, they win 80% of games where you win 95% of games, you'd feel a lot better about games you lose, and a lot of the games you win no longer feel as deserved since you "clearly" are outperforming in your bracket. -
@Brimp said:
When exhaustion perks get disabled whenever 2-3 gens are left then we can agree upon deactivating grim when a survivor is dead.
Survivors were literally "punished" for using haste perks too well to the point that they became a group of perks. Killers are using Grim Embrace too well with other gen regression perks through tunnelling. So honestly, it would make sense for killers to have perks that are stronger than they are now as long as all survivors are alive, but either be deactivated or weakened when survivors are dying.
Aka, early to mid game perks. The opposite of end game perks that dont have any effect or very little effect during the game, but have significant power once gens are gone.
And you can argue that survivors could have similar types of perks, like anti-tunnel perks that are 150% their current power at 4-5 gens, but 70% of their current power at 1-3 gens -
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/439858/grim-embrace
Conceptually I wish the game was designed more around this being the game design. That as survivors are killed the killer gets weaker, balancing out the game a bit more.
That said, its hard to do that at the moment. Especially if Grim Embrace was buffed, it would create scenarios were the last survivor who hasn't been hooked should absolutely just hide from the killer, which is the reverse of what you want from the game where the unhooked survivor should be pursuing chase.
It's not too hard to do, in fact, other than Ruin (because its a hex), I think all gen regression perks should be 130-150% of what they are now as long as 4 survivors are alive, but maybe 75-80% of what they are now once 1 survivor has died. It makes killers want to keep all survivors alive as long as possible because their perks would be much stronger.
Basically the thanatophobia treatment to anything gen slowdown and gen regression-wise. Once 1 survivor is dead, you wont be able to get maximum value. So you have to choose to kill a survivor, or to keep the perk's power.
As for the final survivor hiding from the killer, that means that that survivor isnt gonna sit on gens, which means free pressure. And thats pressure that the killer can use to get everyone else dead on hook and just get quick kills. Especially if other gen regression perks like Pop and Surge do 150% of what they do now. That survivor would need to be on gens otherwise the gen regression perks would whittle away too much.
The only current problem would be slugging, and I do agree that they would need to fix that first before changing things. Because why would a killer hook someone who is dead on hook and downed, when they still have to find that last survivor to get grim embrace value. -
@danielmaster87 said:
Y'all look for any possible angle to get a killer perk nerfed. It shouldn't deactivate on death, because you still hooked all 4 survivors once each. You earned the perk. How could the killer be tunneling if he got the perk to work? Unless you're trying to say he hooked 3 people, and then started tunneling, in which case how do you not win that match as survivor? That's the problem with switching to tunneling once you're already losing: it never works out. It's why killers "tunneling from the start" is such a copout, because it assumes that you only need to do it later or when losing, which is the absolute worst time to start. The greatest critics of the strategy don't even know how it works or plays out.
Every time the devs have attempted to nerf tunneling, or make something so weak that it can't be used with tunneling, it's been an abject failure. Same with anti-tunnel survivor perks. It punishes the non-tunneling killers more than the tunnelers. This change would do the same.
You didnt read a thing right? Buff the timer on hook 1,2,3. Keep the time on the 4th hook the same. Deactivate it if someone is killed.
That way, those who tunnel dont get exponential value, and those who dont tunnel actually get the deserved value. Right now, if you tunnel someone out at 4 gens remaining, you have 3 survivors who are already going to have a difficult time finishing 4 gens with 3 survivors. Adding a super easy 40 second gen blockage on top of that is beyond overkill. Instead, make it a perk that rewards people who dont rush a kill. The risk is that survivors can do all gens, the benefit is that you get a huge blockage.
And how could the killer be tunnelling if he got the perk to work? Simple:
Blight, pain res, grim embrace. hook survivor 1, chase 2 but rush back to 1 the second they get unhooked, hook 1 again, chase survivor whoever and the survivors either have to leave the person on hook as long as possible while you get another pain res and grim, or they unhook so you can tunnel them out faster, both are not beneficial options for survivors, then you tunnel out 1 again and still have 3 gens remaining. A 40 second blockage once 1 survivor is dead, is basically 2 free hooks for most killers.
And no, currently anti-tunnel perks do not really punish non-tunnellers more than the tunnellers. Even OTR means 2 survivors aint sitting on gens instead of only the one you're chasing. -
@OmegaXII said:
Do you know how miserable it is to play Killer before these changes??
Before then, Survivors have so many tools that they can do all 5 totems, rummaging all chests, and still be able to 4 escapes EASILY against sweating Killers. It has reached to the point no one wants to play the Killer at all times.
Now everything’s been tuned down, but it doesn’t really make the game any easier for Killer, since Gen Time is still the same as before. The only difference is that Survivors now won’t have time to fool around, which is how it should be from the very beginning.
The main issue that made it miserable to play killer is that you as a killer are generally more likely to face stronger survivors because there was a reliance on basekit mechanics that survivors needed perks to counter. While all survivor basekit mechanics have basekit mechanics to counter with (slugging, hooking, facing walls, brute forcing pallets).
And you meant to say SWF. SWF have had so many tools to do all totems, rummage all chests and still get 4 escapes against sweating killers (tho not easily, they would have to be sweating too).
Also, since those changes, average killrate has gone up from 52% to 60%. And average escaperates have gone down from 48% to 38%. It literally has gotten easier for killers, as gen times are increased and chase time reduced.
As for survivors having time to fool around, you kinda WANT them to fool around. Why else add chests in the game? Why else add totems in the game. Survivors SHOULD be able to sit on gens, killers SHOULD be the one keeping them off gens. If survivors are the ones who NEED to distract the killer so that they barely have time to do gens, then the game is dead. Many of the DBD clones were balanced in a way that survivors needed to distract the killer for them to be able to progress the game, because if they didnt, they would 100% lose. All those games have died. It's the killer who needs to be making those decisions, whether to chase a survivor or not. -
So, corrupt intervention and eruption got nerfed longer ago than you think, making my list quite easy:
Survivor perks that got nerfed more?
Dead Hard
Circle of Healing
Background Player
Made For This
Saboteur (entire mechanic btw)
Calm Spirit
Object of Obsession
Buckle Up
That's 3 for every one you mentioned and I could add more, but will put those below.
As for others.
Botany Knowledge (arguably could be considered nerfed more than Overcharge too, Overcharge really is a low bar)
Boil Over
Appraisal (remember you could rummage all 3 items from a single chest? Pepperidge farm remembers)
Blastmine (you used to be able to switch gens and effectively give every gen you wanted blastmine)
Adrenaline
Clairvoyance (remember you could use it to phase through killers and push them off the edge?)
Decisive Strike
Distortion (could arguably be above, but I only needed 9 for your 3)
Iron Will (another one that could be above)
Lucky Break (hey look, another one)
Self-Care(could be up too)
Spine Chill
WGLF
Need I go on? Because even Soul Guard got a bigger nerf than Tinkerer. Heck, Prove Thyself technically got a bigger nerf since it remained the same amount while gen times were significanlty increased enough to make it save less time(when at 80 charges, it was considered perfectly fine)
And Eruption is an ancient change, I think my most ancient change isnt even as ancient as Eruption is. That was Freddy 2.0 Ancient while everything I mentioned is post-Freddy2.0 -
I think Haddonfield is the strongest killer map overall, and Autohaven depends on the map, but I wouldnt be surprised if thats the highest escape rate due to the low walls
-
@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890891#Comment_3890891
If none of those changes are worth of mention, then nothing in this game was changed in past 5 years. In reality, you are just cherry picking to promote the narrative.
Nope, you can simply read the original. The reason I dont consider them worthy of mention, is because the buffs for survivors that I didnt mention were: basekit anti-facecamp (which, didnt really negatively affect killers, especially since it doesnt work when the final gen is gone), basekit BT(which, didnt really negatively affect killers, in fact, it wasnt really a problem for most players, only for people who love to tunnel), buffed chest speeds which again doesnt impact killers negatively, as survivors sitting on chests means they arent sitting on gens.
The killer perk nerfs dont matter, because survivor perks got nerfed too. For every killer perk that got nerfed, I can name 3 survivor perks that got nerfed harder. And yeah, there were some perk central meta's for survivor, like Made For This, but I can point at Thrill of the Hunt or Undying and say the exact same thing. Thrill was meta for shorter, but Undying was meta for much, much longer before it got changed.
I am definitely not cherrypicking, I am simply removing unneccesary conversation, because it does not matter. I described from the very start that I was talking about killers right now, because it mostly is surrounding killers. But it definitely applies to survivors too. Remember the survivors who didnt want Dead Hard nerfed because otherwise they would be tunnelled out? They got boosted by Dead Hard and simply didnt want to deal with the consequences of relying on Dead Hard. And that's a perk, an exhaustion perk nonetheless. You could literally run exhaustion addons and perks to combat the use of Dead Hard. The current situation is a basekit mechanic that is unavoidable and usable every single game. Sure there are some perks that combat it, but they are heavily limited, and even then you have to sacrifice perk slots for a basekit mechanic. Imagine you needed to equip a perk like Pop to be able to kick a gen, instead of being able to kick gens normally. Imagine you needed Bamboozle to be able to vault windows. Perks should ENHANCE basekit mechanics. They shouldnt be REQUIRED to combat basekit mechanics. And no, gen regression perks arent required, plenty of builds and killers that can get you a 4k that dont rely on gen regression at all. If any perk is required for killers right now, I would actually say it's Fire Up, since it increases interactions over time, which I find a very logical to be a basekit thing. -
@NarkoTri1er said:
I think a lot of players, on both sides, have complaints about balancing changes, because they dont realize they have been MMR boosted and facing opponents they shouldnt have been able to face in the first place. I'm taking killer specifically for this post due to current changes affecting them the most, but its also true for survivors when medkits were being changed, or when MFT got changed (people saying they now needed to genrush to compete with the killers they were facing, like, duh, you boosted yourself and now you have to deal with the consequences of that).
well, there are way too many players like that, you can find them all the way on dbdtwt, dbdtok, Reddit and also here.
The big problem with dbd community is that majority of players who don't really have necessary game knowledge are very confident in engaging balance discussions simply because they are some "high MMR" when in fact they aren't aware how awful matchmaking is and that losing often when at soft MMR cap does mainly mean you are underperforming.
Think about it, for killers claiming that its impossible to win without slugging, in the past 4 years the following things happened:
Gens have been increased by 10 seconds.
Mapsizes have been reduced.
Basekit generator kicking applies 5% damage and the gen keeps regressing untill the survivor fixed the 5%.
Chase related interactions are 10% shorter for killers, and survivors received a 10% nerf in boost duration.
DS has been nerfed to a point its rarely being used.
Killers in general have been upped in strength.
Less pallets on average.
Less windows on average.
More hooks per square meter of map so less time carrying survivors to hooks.
here we come up to a problem.
Gen speed increase is a very welcome feature, but the fact that toolboxes and BNPs are still at their current state, along with perks that are truly what we can call genrush (Hyperfocus+Stake Out for example) is quite problematic thing.
Some maps have been absolutely obliterated, like Haddonfield and Borgo, but other than that, no significant changes have been done to maps.
Basekit gen kick yea, but at the cost of 8 events limit. Not that the change is bad, but with some perks/addons you can reach regression event limit very fast (e.g. Eruption).
Chase related interaction are still very strong for surv.
DS was still strong at 3s (exception for Nurse, Billy and Blight, and even though there were suggestions that would make this perk much better against them while not punishing already weak killers more than it already was, majority of the community won).
Yes, killers have been upped in strength as an attempt to keep up with surv strength, but big majority still can't keep up with surv metas at all.
Less pallets on few maps.
Less windows on few maps.
More hooks doesn't really matter when hooks are already more beneficial for survs than they are for killers + sabo was rebuffed, bringing back the most unhealthy kind of gamepplay on surv side back.
And sure, BT has been made basekit, sure, hook timers have been increased by 10 seconds. But how often does basekit BT actually trigger unless you tunnel? How often do survivors stay on hook for longer than 60 seconds?
i mean, basekit BT is an anti-tunnel + hit tanking feature for aggressive usage (along with OTR). Regarding survs staying on hook, people just don't wanna greed anyone on hook don't know the actual benefits of keeping surv on a hook a bit longer in any case, so that's why it isn't very present nowadays.
All in all, the game should have been easier for killers in general to the point where they didnt need to rely on slugging, tunnelling and 4 gen regression perks. But yet people did. And now they face survivors who are basically out of their league to the point that they have to keep relying on the things that boosted them to those brackets in the first place.
great problem with tunneling is that majority of killers simply don't stand a single chance without a 3v1 asap, and even that strategy heavily punished by more and more additions that not only counter it, but also any hooking order other than fresh 12-hooking. Majority of killers still can't 12-hook because of so many features and perks triggering off hook and 12-hooking also being a biggest waste of time as killer. The very point of playing of surv nowadays in terms of hooks is forcing killer to spread hooks as much as possible.
Slugging is basically optimal play nowadays in order to avoid on and off-hook triggering mechanics and perks. Also, it is basically implemented into basekit of killers like Oni, Twins, Plague and Myers.
What actually is a big problem with average killer player is that they don't know how, when and where to tunnel, slug or camp. They will just be focused to use those strats 24/7 no matter what and exactly that will make them lose their matches against any at least a bit competent team.
And while I think there are some valid points, I am also 100% convinced that the vast majority of players have accidentally MMR boosted themselves and now simply have to deal with the consequences until their MMR lowers to more realistic numbers.
this is the well known case on both sides and it's funny that, even though people have pumped their MMR up, due to soft cap being too low, they will always be at the very mid level in terms of skill. That's why we always hear well knowns:
TUNNELING/SLUGGING/CAMPING OP
GENRUSHING/FLASHLIGHTS OP.
With the current state of MMR, you can literally have a very high winrate no matter which side you play if you have enough skill, because once you reach soft cap, average skill of your opponent(s) will stagnate. That saying, MMR is almost a nonexistent thing atm.
The game has objectively been getting easier for killers, yet you claim its harder than ever. Then maybe the conclusion should be that you're facing opponents that are out of your league.
the game has also been objectively been getting easier for survs too, yet they also claim it's harder than ever. Strongest tools to counter camping, tunneling and slugging ever and still, people fail to counter those + were playing against those way better when there were way less perks to counter them?
Not to mention constant giving up. For what? We all know 3v1 asap is very important for killer, why is tunneling so problematic also if survivors themselves induce that 3v1 even after…first chase?
BNP is honestly in a very healthy state, it reduces the max charges needed to finish a single gen. Honestly, my main issue is that it doesnt consume the toolbox like a Syringe does. As for toolboxes in general, they are fine and balanced. Blighted rat and crow on blight has more impact on game results than survivors bringing 4 commodius toolboxes. Hyperfocus and Stake-Out are not a problem either, otherwise everyone would be running it. They need to be in the terror radius for 60 seconds to collect enough stacks for stake-out to be consistent and have a BNP to start off the Hyperfocus and a -10 charge to do a single gen in maybe 30 seconds (at the cost of 1 bnp and an additional 60 seconds of charging up stake out, so it was basically a 90 second gen).
And I fully disagree with killers not being able to keep up with survivor strength. As survivors in general have been dropping in strength. Adrenaline doesnt work like it used to do. Unbreakable is easy to avoid. DS is basically non-existant and all anti-tunnel perks are either going to work in your favor if a survivor tries to trigger it on you, or going to be disabled once you let the survivors alone for 10 seconds. There are less pallets, and if there arent, they are weaker overall (as a comparison, Coldwind farm has 1 extra pallet, but went from 10 strong pallets, to 5 strong pallets, 4 medium pallets and 2 weak pallets, which is basically equal to 7.5 strong pallets). So loops are weaker. Gens are closer to each other. Everything is harder to get by for survivors. So survivor strength objectively dropped. Killer strength also objectively went up. The problem is that it feels like survivor strength went up, because the average killer simply faces stronger survivors nowadays.
And the majority of killers SHOULD be able to hold up a 4v1, unless they have been boosted in their MMR. Which is the point of my post. I main Doc at, based on my survivors, relatively high mmr, a killer considered relatively weak, even after his buff, got stronger which was nice, but he's not the greatest. My games against survivors have felt easier over time, the only thing that changed is that word got out that pre-dropping pallets against Doc is strong, so I was forced to bring Fire Up to combat that (which, actually great perk on Doc now, arguably top 5 perks). My games have gotten easier, because I never relied on "boring" strategies. Yes, sometimes there are games I would have won if I tunnelled, sometimes there are games if I slugged at 5 gens instead of letting the second chase go to secure a hook. Problem, I dont like to tunnel or slug, because it decreases my required skill against my opponents. So if I lose 2 games every 10 matches because I didnt slug or tunnel, big whoop, still 80% winrate. Yes, as Doctor, against survivors running BNP, commodius, pre-dropping pallets while I at most run 1 gen regression perk (or 2 gen slowdown perks), still 80% winrate. Sometimes you just have to accept your loss and use that game to find out where you are making mistakes, rather than heavy slugging and tunnelling to try and keep up with players that are simply out of your current league.
Also, slugging is OP (and boring) right now. It applies the same pressure as hooking without having to hook, doesnt have any valid basekit anti-measures (unless you're swf, but 60% of players plays soloq so not an argument), and even if someone happened to bring anti-measures in the form of perks, killers can simply combat it by slugging them again. Slugging is OP and needs a nerf. Personally, basekit tenacity (increased crawling speed and recovering while crawling, not the reduced sounds) and having effectively unlimited self-pickups as long as there are still gens remaining would work. The unlimited self-pickup would force killers to hook as long as there are gens, it would need a tiny tweak so that it cannot be abused against killers like Twins and Oni (a simple mechanic added there is just making them broken and haemorrhaged for 60 seconds so you as a killer know they picked themselves up and can easily track them, then maybe also an additional 20 seconds after fully recovering before you can pick yourself up, so that killers have 50 seconds to finish chase before needing to find the body to hook). And yeah, that would force those killers to run Deerstalker, but tbh, not a problem, because a killer who has a basekit relying on slugging should have perks surrounding slugging, rather than gen regression and gen slowdown. -
@xGodSendDeath said:
Telling killers to just lose to settle in an MMR is such lazy bad advice. The MMR system doesn't work like that. Once you get over the soft cap, you get matched with everyone including all the sweats out of your league. Case in point I'm terrible at survivor. Die 9/10 games. I still get matched against p100 Blights
I didnt say to lose to settle their MMR, but that they have been able to boost their own MMR (far) beyond what it should have been, because of mechanics.
And no, the softcap doesnt match you with everyone. There still is (some) priority in your own MMR as it looks for players within range. It just quickly starts looking for bigger ranges, both above and below.
The point is, that if players have been relying on ways that boost their MMR, they should expect to lose a lot once the mechanics they rely on are adjusted to no longer be as reliable as they are. Tunnelling shouldnt be reliable at 5 gens, slugging shouldnt be something a killer wants to do unless they have to, hooking should be something they would want to do. And there's 2 solutions to that, which both should be implemented: 1. a punishment system for killer(or reward system for survivor) when survivors remain slugged too long when there are still gens remaining. 2. a reward system for killer to hook. No idea what that doesnt require a massive perk and addon rework, but it should be basekit. -
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889299#Comment_3889299
But that's also precisely the point, both sides have optimized their play, you just don't like how killers have done it because its not "fun"
Except, when survivors did optimize their play, by using BNP's, DH's, DS+Unbreakable, you just didnt like how survivors did it, because it was not fun, and it needed to be changed.
How is this different in any way, shape or form? It isnt. -
@PetTheDoggo said:
Think about it, for killers claiming that its impossible to win without slugging, in the past 4 years the following things happened:
Oh right, because there were no changes along those that affected killers negatively, right?
No buffs for survivors and definetly no nerfs to killer perks…How often do survivors stay on hook for longer than 60 seconds
They should stay there ALWAYS if you expected tunneling. It's quite normal, if you know what you are doing.
None I considered worthy of mention, besides, I would refer you to the comment above you
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889299#Comment_3889299
This change simply means killers have to rethink how to play the game.
Precisely my point. This is ostensibly required to stay competitive. It requires developing a whole different mindset and, crucially, time investment, which a not-insignificant portion of players are just not willing to do. Understandably so, I might add. This is supposed to be a hobby, not a secondary job.
DbD, as simple as it may seem, is just a difficult game. And it keeps getting more difficult as players improve. The only thing the devs can do here is disrupt the optimised strategies, but that's also guaranteed to result in backlash.
Counterpoint, survivors have to do this EVERY SINGLE TIME A KILLER IS RELEASED. Not talking about meta mixups etc.
It's not that big of a time investment. -
@GentlemanFridge said:
While I partially agree, I think it's also worth pointing out that players have also optimised their play more and more. The skilllevel that sufficed when Pyramid Head released is simply lower than the skilllevel required now.
Another, more concrete example. Years ago, people still did totems. Nowadays, you'll get flamed for even starting one if there's no hex in play.
Also true, but that would also mean that 1 side did not optimize their gameplay. Which would still be a skill issue on that end.
If survivors somehow optimized their games on average to a point where 10 extra seconds on smaller maps allows them to win, because otherwise they would lose more often, then that means killers have not been optimizing their games in the meantime. Arguably because they have been able to rely on something they shouldnt have been able to rely on that consistently.
This change simply means killers have to rethink how to play the game. Find ways to create deadzones early on in generator dense zones, find ways to zone survivors in directions you want them to zone or force them to tank a hit and go where they want for a reduced total chasetime. Hook people strategically rather than just the nearest hook (spending those 5 extra seconds to get them in the center of your gen-dense area can often mean forced hooktrades or even a free hookstate because you can prevent unhooks consistently while keeping an eye on your gens). It's rare that I see those strategies employed these days, and they almost always happen by accident, while back in the day, it was pretty much a guaranteed early kill without needing to tunnel at all since there would always be 1 person on the hook. -
@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888194#Comment_3888194
You really think the killer can camp your body and not lose all momentum from doing it? Even if the survivors are already in a losing scenario like you said, don't they deserve to lose there?
They already lost as a team in that scenario, but the individual loss isnt deserved. That's like saying killers already lost because gates are open and 5 survivors have escape, so they dont deserve any kill afterwards.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888481#Comment_3888481
Because Iron Will is incredibly good and Lightborn isn't.
It's good at what it does, but relies on certain items to be in play, unlike Iron Will, which is universally useful.
Oh really, being able to prevent someone from getting freed for another 30-40 second chase isnt incredibly good?
And Iron Will really isnt universally useful, you cant use it with exhaustion perks, and killers have a lot of exhaustion perks and addons that instantly counter Iron Will. You cant counter Lightborn.
The only time Iron Will is good, is if a survivor doesnt have exhaustion perks, nor do you have anything exhaustion inducing, and they hide in a corner before you come check when everyone else is injured and you dont know there is Iron Will at play. -
@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888433#Comment_3888433
Flashlights aren't basekit. They're items.
You can get them from chest, hence basekit.
And otherwise, why not buff Iron Will back to permanently working even when exhausted and fully countering Stridor? -
@OrangeBear said:
1v4 is better with MMR, 2v8 doesn't really need it.
I still have had less fun in general in games post 2021 MMR than games pre 2021 mmr.
Its still fun, but even my most fun builds heavily rely on perks/offerings that I feel I MUST use, regardless if I want to, because otherwise I wont be having any fun.
I cant really play perk-roulette and have fun as killer anymore, because survivors are always going to be at my level.
I cant really waste time as a survivor and intimidate the killer by standing still unless we've already finished 4 gens, because otherwise im gonna be tunnelled out.
Things that didnt really happen pre-mmr. -
Breakable walls are an amazing concept that balanced maps. Pre-breakable walls, maps were either very killer sided, survivor sided or pallet heavy (but result-wise, balanced).
Breakable walls allowed there to be less pallets in general, while giving the ability to add windows that are strong once.
You have good walls to break, and bad walls to break. Because if every wall was a good wall, there would be no reason to not break them, but if every wall was a bad one, there is no reason for them to exist. You have to have both, so people can make a mistake.
Good examples are the 2 doors in Dead Dawg main building next to a window.
Badham is an example of (partially) badly implemented doors, but only half of the time. Because if basement spawns there, it suddenly is fine. The issue with Badham is that there isnt a hook in the basement of the school. But Badham also had the house of pain before breakable walls, and now its at best house of annoyance. Remove the breakable walls and its either house of pain against killer, or house of despair against survivors.
In fact, the maps that DONT have any breakable doors are the maps that are also the least balanced when looking at results. Hawkins has 2 very survivor sided area's (portal room and that one room with an incredibly long, closed, wall) and 2 quite powerful killer area's, that one room with 2 weak pallets, and that one room with the pallet near the server-thingy). Its overall "balanced" because of those, but breakable walls would actually balance it out. The portal room could use a breakable door, just like the long wall. While those smaller rooms could actually benefit from having the holes in the wall initially walled up. Lery's could benefit from some walls here and there.
There are walls I would replace with an RNG hole tho. Like, the one downstairs in dead dawg in the gambling room. It doesnt really serve any purpose. It's neither good nor bad. Kinda like the walls in Midwich bathroom that would bring you upstairs. They were neither good or bad, just a time-investment. -
@ReverseVelocity said:
I don't think it needs a direct nerf.
I am of the opinion that it's incredibly annoying, though, and maybe Lightborn should counter it entirely (including the stun) as an option for those who want to. I hate going against the perk with a passion even if it isn't necessarily good per se.
As a side note, have you tried kicking a Blast Mined gen with Lightborn? The flash is genuinely like the old Blind Screen effect back in the day, it's horrible.
As if Lightborn needs a buff. Nah, Lightborn needs a downside as it completely removes a basekit mechanic from the game. Even Iron Will doesnt work if you're exhausted. And the main reason to buff Lightborn was because of Iron Will.
If you wanna buff Lightborn even further to specifically block Blastmine, then stuns in general need to be increased by 33% -
@Nazzzak said:
Couple reasons I think. One is that you have a lot of team mates who can pick you up. And you can pick yourself up when the team is down in numbers. Both act as deterrents for killers to slug (and if a killer is camping your body then he's not running around slugging all your team mates instead of hooking). The devs also can see how long people spend on the ground and when. If full team slugs were common enough then I imagine they'd do something about it. As it stands, I've played a heck of a lot of 2v8 and it's rare I've been left slugged.
I almost end every single game where the killers slug 1 survivor in the end and send the other for scouting the rest. Sometimes laying there for 3.5 minutes total after being downed 3 times because you have to lay still to recover. When if I could recover and crawl, those moments would be rare as I can basically cross the map while crawling and get closer to an opened gate.
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Depends on what you define as a dead-end. Sometimes, maps have windows that are open or closed depending on RNG. Then I would say its up to you to check to make sure.
Let alone that other "dead ends" are very easy to avoid. They are also often places you can hide as a killer has 0 reason to go there unless they know you're there. -
@100PercentBPMain said:
If you truly are being slugged repeatedly that you can't find value in your team skill, the best thing you can do is crawl away from the action. If a killer wants to babysit you there's now ideally 7 survivors vs 1 killer.
The best advice I can give is that the best anti slug tool in your arsenal is to jump into a locker. The killer will either grab you out, or hump the locker. Either scenario is preferable to being on the ground
Well, the problem comes especially in something like RPD, where if you get downed roughly in the middle of either side, the killer can just patrol their side of the map and return to you before you can trigger your teamskill, and if they are a bit slow that you can trigger your teamskill, you dont have time to crawl to a pallet. Hence why I feel like basekit tenacity should be the first addition. And since the later slugging also happens, I feel like endurance for a short bit wouldnt hurt. It just gives a little bit of a timeframe that you wont be able to be downed if its only 1 other killer.
And lockers arent common enough to be a viable counter to that. That probably wont be the case untill Dredge is added to the roster. -
I actually would concur a few things:
1. Trapper should be up a bit. If you have a good Trapper, you can very easily go from hitting 5-6 survivors with 1 frenzy to 7-8 because they get trapped. And while that might mean no downs, the hardest part for legion is getting the first 3 hits. Trapper would need a bit of a buff in 2v8 (I would say self-resetting traps and starting out with all traps would be good, because now a LOT of time is wasted collecting traps and resetting them, which is a real shame, but that's another discussion)
2. I would reduce the amount of hits needed for a down a little bit, back to 7. Because then the 8th hit on the 8th survivor would be an instadown. Right now, getting that 9th hit is actually quite difficult, especially if there are any bots since they will go to the corners of the map if they ever notice a frenzy, but reducing it by 1 or 2 hits would make him genuinely good. I dont really see him being annoying in general, the only people who find him annoying are people who think 1 healer is enough. Everytime I faced a legion, I ended up winning because of green herbs or having 2-3 healers who instaheal teammates consistently.
3. I do think killer instinct during frenzy should apply to nemesis zombies. They react to Wesker's spray because for some reason Wesker's spray and Nemesis' vaccine are global to all killers, and Legion isnt. Which is understandable because it would basically be like giving your opponent free aura reads for the next 20 seconds on everyone who isnt deepwounded, but those zombies should definitely have synergy with it as Nemesis isnt too strong (unless there are 0 scouts, because then Nemesis is godtier)
I do think he is slightly weak considering everything, just like Trapper is slightly weak. They can both be the reason you win or lose the match depending on tile RNG and mapsize. -
@XtremeDBD said:
There kinda is anti slug. Saving and using your team ability while slugged lets you pick yourself back up, you don't even need to be caged for it to activate now as of this variation of 2v8
Yeah, but I kinda elaborated how thats not really anti-slug since they can just down you again by semi-camping your body and you wont be able to pick yourself up for another 60 seconds. Like, you've already been downed for 34 seconds, and now you gotta wait another 60 seconds while laying still to get another chance at a self-pickup. I dont really count that as anti-slugging.
Effectively, killers can still slug 1 person when there is 3 left, have 1 person proxy-camp the body while the other goes to hunt the teammates. Then whenever they pick themselves up, you can down them and can join your teammate for a minute to find the rest.
But if survivors can crawl and recover at the same time, and have like 10 seconds of endurance, killers are kinda forced to make hatches spawn. Then they are kinda forced to pick someone up because if they dont, they can crawl somewhere safe for the next 30 seconds before they can pick themselves up the first time, and if you happen to be near, they have 10 seconds to reach the nearest loop.
I was considering Unbreakable basekit for a minute too tbh, because with the ease of hooking, I dont really see any reason to slug anyone for longer than 20 seconds. You just injure, break the nearby pallet and grab it, but then endurance would be too much and I think endurance on (self-)pickup is more important in these scenario's. -
@Pit_Bull_Love said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887041#Comment_3887041
I don't know how anyone can see these things as buff to survivors.
1. Surrender is absolutely not a buff to survivors, if anything it's a neutral. It's a buff to killers though, as it encourages slugging. If you don't like being slugged, you can just surrender, because BHVR is actively encouraging this play style. Why would anyone DC when slugged? Survivors can't afford to take that many DC penalties, so you tab out of the game instead which will still happen with this.
2. No one is complaining about gamma settings. This should have been in the game from day one.
3. Let's be real, this is going to be coded like crap and people are going to be punished for playing the game. But this also do not address the issue...why are survivors going next. Sure some times they are just sore losers, but there are tons of legit reasons, but let's just bandaid the real issue. What if BHVR said they would ban killers for camping, but it's not camping if you are chasing another survivor near the hook. Would you trust them to code that correctly? Because I wouldn't. Tons of people are going to get punished unnecessarily.
4. The crow changes are also a nerf. Whether or not it's a good nerf, or easy to counter, it's a nerf, or buff to killers. And you think killers should get aura and exposed, and that wouldn't be a nerf?? In what world? You know killers would just troll by blocking a survivor until they became exposed, and then slug them. And if another survivor blocked a teammate, the "victim" should be punished in your opinion?
5. One survivor map offerings didn't/doesn't counter a killer offering. They are equal. Personally just delete map offerings if they are such a big deal. No, killers should not automatically get the map over survivors. Ya know... the only way to counter the killer is to give more power to swfs... just stop.
6. Spawning together is also a nerf, that's why no survivor's run the shroud offering, because it's detrimental to your team.
Don't worry about the drink. I thought you were somewhat reasonable, but after this chat, I don't care to share a drink with you. You are very biased and it shows.
- slugging not having a downside encourages slugging. Knockout is already being used more and more. This is, once again, just a bandaid solution against people who slug for 4 minutes. Hence, a buff for survivors, because its either this, or being slugged for 4 minutes.
- good, so thats fine
- No, it wont be, because you cant use 1 game to select a pattern, its gonna be something that has to be flagged, and if the flags are consistent, then they start penalizing it. Its not gonna happen that someone goes next 1 game and instantly gets penalized. And the main issue with survivors going next is because its not penalized. People literally get downed in like 35 seconds due to their own mistake, then suicide on hook. There is no issue on why survivors go next. Also, yeah, they can prevent anti-camp when people are in chase, thats literally the first time they tried implementing anti-camp and that went horribly because people would keep triggering anti-camp. Then 5 years later they implemented basically the same mechanic again but with the stipulation that if any non-hooked survivor is there, there is no anti-camp (which, I find odd, cus slugged survivors shoudnt count there either, but whatever). But while I do think there will be false flags, I do also think that BHVR will reward those punished unfairly untill they tweaked out any additional problems. They might not even implement it after the PTB too if it punishes more than 5% total unfairly.
- It's not a nerf. It's a mechanic that doesnt even apply unless you literally dont do anything. If anything, it gives reason for killers to go after AFK survivors faster and leave the survivors who arent afk alone, which is a buff to survivors. And after 3 crows? Yes, thats not a nerf. If they block you in, you can avoid that by simply walking that. Giving them exposed and aura=time away from other survivors to waste time on the afk survivor instead. Which is a buff for survivors, because it means survivors who ARE progressing the game, can keep progressing the game. And killers bodyblocking a survivor wouldnt work, BECAUSE THEY WOULD LOSE COLLISSION AFTER 2 CROWS. The teammate blocking wouldnt matter either, BECAUSE THEY WOULD LOSE COLLISSION AFTER 2 CROWS. Jeez, its almost like the most important information there didnt matter at all.
- It does counter a killer offering, 1 survivor map offering vs 1 killer offering literally makes it a 50/50 so equal chances. 2 survivor offerings make it 66/33. 3 make it 75/25. With any other survivor and killer offering, it takes 3 survivor offerings to be equal. Meaning it SHOULD be 3 survivor offerings before its a 50/50 between both. Or a 55/45, or 45/55. Like the oak offerings. 1 purple oak offering is 3.5 meters reduced distance per hook, and 1 purple oak for survivors is +1 meter. That means that survivors need 3 offerings to only have 0.5 meters reduced, or 4 offerings to have it increased by 0.5 meters.
So, just to give a comparison, right now it takes 3 oak offerings to compensate 1 killer oak offering, and then they still have 1 slot left to get 99.999% chance to go to the map they want. Where if a killer picks a map and survivors only need 1 map offering and can then give 3 hook offerings, then the killer has 50/50 on his map and 3 meters increased in hook. That doesnt make sense, why does in 1 case survivors get a guaranteed map, but no hook distance, but the other time, its 50/50 and massive hook distance? Its either 3 map offerings to combat the killer map offering, or killer hook offerings need to be massively buffed. I rather have the map offering rework. And no one said anything about the killer getting the map over a survivor offering, just that the killer map should simply be 3x or 3.5x as strong as the survivor equivalent of any offering. Survivors get 20% for a map offering? killers get 60-70% for the exact same offering. Simple as that. Doesnt guarantee a thing, just makes sure that if 1 survivor and 1 killer bring a map, that 3/4 times, the killer map will be chosen. - Spawning together is again barely a nerf, the problem currently is spawn locations being very predictable, and they stated they would change that up a little bit so its not as predictable. Right now a killer can go to 1 of the 7 realistic spawn points and instantly go in chase, when at best you have survivors on 3 gens, chase being over after about 60 seconds if you're lucky and only 1-2 gens popping depending on perks. Spawning together means you can spread out from there and thus be a bit more careful and sit on gens AFTER the killer checked the area. Since it takes longer for the killer to encounter someone, you actually would have a bigger chance of finishing 3 gens as long as you play a little bit careful at the start.
And no, not biased at all. I play both roles, about 2.5k hours on each side. I know the annoyances of both sides. And these arent nerfs for survivors AT ALL. The only I can kiiiiinda agree on is spawning togethers, but that's practically been basekit anyway. You almost always start with another survivor, quite often all 4 being in the general area. There are some times when survivors all spawn spread out, but those are rare and removing them literally wouldnt impact your overall gameplay.
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Map offerings need a rebalance. I am personally against them being used to avoid to go to a certain realm, because then they should all be gray at the very least and even then, sometimes there are multiple maps you dont wanna go to.
What I do hope they do, is give the ability to stack them back, BUT survivors get 20% per map offering, and killers gain 60% per map offering.
That way, survivors need 3 offerings to balance out the odds of 1 killer offering (just like the hook distance offerings, where survivors need 3 to balance out the 1 killer offering), but even then neither is guaranteed to go somewhere. -
@Pit_Bull_Love said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886077#Comment_3886077
I completely agree with you. They should do these things for the health of the game, but I don't think it's what the devs will do. I have zero faith in the dev team at this point. Everything they have suggested in patch 1 is a nerf to survivors. By would part 2 be different? As long as they can make a few dollars off the game, they consider it a win.
So, does your lack of acknowledgement mean you won't buy me a drink? XD
I fail to see anything being a nerf to survivors tho:
1. surrender option, mainly a buff since you dont have to DC to play another game.
2. gamma adjustments, people are already doing this on PC for ages, all this does is give it to console killers, who are arguably underperforming compared to pc killers in general anyway, so not really a nerf either way. Especially since survivors also get it, and a lot of killers that currently benefit from a map being dark (dredge especially), will be less effective. But again, survivors are found slightly easier too. Not a nerf or buff either way and if any noticable effect takes place, it would affect killers more negatively than survivors
3. Go next implementation, will depend on what it will take into account. I think it will be pattern based rather than being based on individual matches. In fact, I think one of the most important factors will be purposely missing hook skillchecks as the first survivor to die, with 4-5 gens remaining and instantly joining another game. Where people who might be the first survivor to die by purposely missing hook skillchecks at 5 gens, but instead will close the game, wont be identified. The system would need some transparancy to players, so we can actively report it when the system is applied in cases where it shouldnt have been, but that's kinda the only questionable addition in the list that could actively negatively affect normal survivor players.
4. Crows instantly revealing survivors might sound like a nerf, but is it really? There are already very easy ways to avoid crows in general. The only personal issue I have with the crow changes, is having to wait for 3 crows before losing collision instead of 2. Because its RARE for 2 crows to appear at any time. In fact, what I would add is make the survivor exposed and cagable (like in 2v8) at 3 crows instead, so that a killer can go there, down and instantly hook them without wasting time. But not a nerf.
5. Map offerings, the only actual nerf, but one that has been needed since 2017. It's weird that 1 survivor offering can fully cancel 1 killer offering. I do still hope they would give killers a 50% chance instead of a 20% chance, and give the ability to stack to survivors, so that survivors would need at least 3 offerings to match the chances of the killer, but that's open for interpretation later down the line and probably would need a bit more work.
6. Spawn rules changing are both a buff and a nerf. Its easier for survivors to remain undetected for longer, and due to other spawn rules they can accurately predict where the killer spawned and sit freely on a gen in that area, but Lethal Pursuer grants more value, and killers can predict where you and your teammates spawned, leading to more consistent early chases if survivors dont avoid being detected properly.
The rest of the points dont really matter, but I fail to see, other than map offerings, how any of this is a nerf for survivors by any means.
And I wont be needing to buy you a drink for part 1, because point 1 and 3 are HUGE benefits for survivor games in general. It's not a buff or nerf, but more consistently playing a 4v1 rather than having 35% of my games being a 3v1 is a win. The map offering one doesnt matter except for SWF, and SWF needs a nerf anyway.