Leon_Loves_Cheryl
Leon_Loves_Cheryl
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@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061303#Comment_4061303
I agree this would make the interaction feel janky and more "What just happened" but I think you missed part of the post. OP specifically states that the animation (referred to as cooldown) should be shortened in order to keep the distance once both are back to full movement speed the same. All this would accomplish in reality is allow for less mental reset time for Ghoul, which a nerf to the player rather than the character, and slightly faster chase times due to a second saved on that animation, which is technically a buff but so small it doesn't matter.
Also when Ghoul injures me Shack should immediately spawn on top of us both. /sI see; so it's moreso a matter of changing the feel rather than the power level.
Well, I still disagree in that regard. I think the visual feedback of the interaction is important to the theatrics of the character. Pounce - chomp - BRAAARGH - instantly back to running just feels kinda weird even if it's a power-neutral or power-positive change.
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This is a very shortsighted suggestion. I mean, think about it.
It is essentially a mini-cutscene that makes both you and the killer the participant. What you're asking for is to be able to escape him completely for free while he stands still crashing out. That's not fair to him because he's already paying the price by having to wait several seconds before he can do anything, while you get a speed boost.
It would also just look weird due to the lack of visual feedback on both ends. Being grabbed gives visual feedback to the survivor that "oh crap, my character's getting hit!" Removing this would make the interaction significantly jankier and also give an unfair advantage to the survivor because they are already given enough time to run by the time Ghoul is done crashing out.
Being injured by his power is NOT supposed to be a free ticket to Shack unless you're already positioned near it. Positioning is an extremely important component of the survivor skillcap. You're asking to nerf a killer in a way that makes Survivor less skillful.
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@MoZo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4059392#Comment_4059392
he was already fine on the live game. all he needed was tweaks/rework to centipede and arguably Yamori’s mask. idk why they went ahead and buffed him while classifying it as a “bug fix.”
Good god no, it is not "fine" for there to exist an inconsistent tech that completely ruins the point of part of a killer's power. The "revault tech" only did bad things to the gameplay with Ghoul.
Counterplay against him exists beyond an unfair bug that completely nullifies one of the aspects of his power.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4034899#Comment_4034899
Well, I'm sorry. But Ghoul is truly not healthy at all. Not only because his skill floor is non-existing but because he can do everything with no effort. Let me explain the most frustrating stuff and it's not about skill of survivor but a pure gambling.
→ Ghoul get's free injure on you, that itself is fine for me. The issue is the stun that cancels exhasution perks, has insane range and is still gitting through objects.
→ Ghoul leaps to you, instantly cancel and follow with M1 hit in about 1s that is also not healthy as all catchup killers have cooldowns - Wesker, Krasue, Blight, Nurse, Chucky etc.
→ Pallets are completely gamble and mostly a lose-lose situations - not only that pallets got massively nerfed but Ghoul can:
- Just hold W and hit you,
- Fake tentacles and instantly m1
- Scamper, hinders you for 50 % and get a guaranteed hits on 80 % of pallets,
- Leap over loop nad bodyblock,
- etc. So there is no standard counterplay because you can't gamble 20/1 options he will do.
→ Apply deepwounds on top of mark and can hold power for about 8s, which is ridiculous.
If those things are adjusted, which they announced that they will touch Ghoul eventually with another nerf. I'm truly sorry, but Ghoul = effortless win. That's why I don't play him. And that guy who posted here the same video where he leaps multiple times around pallet to block it is something I haven't seen and I play against P100 Ghouls and Ghouls overall in about 5 of 9 games.
Ghoul leaps to you, instantly cancel and follow with M1 hit in about 1s that is also not healthy as all catchup killers have cooldowns - Wesker, Krasue, Blight, Nurse, Chucky etc.
Okay. Now name the difference between all of those killers' powers and Ghoul.
It is a very important, key difference.
I'll give you a minute to think about it.
…
All of those killers' powers can down you. Ghoul's power cannot. That's why Wesker, Krasue, etc. have long cooldowns when they end their powers because they're balanced by using the power to try to down you in a lethal manner rather than catching up. Meanwhile Ghoul's power can ONLY catch up or cut off, IT CANNOT KILL YOU, so it has a shorter cooldown (which, by the way, is NOT one second) in order to encourage the Ghoul player to use it in intelligent ways (by cutting you off at a loop or by simply catching you in an open area.) You cannot give him a high cooldown AND limit him to only being able to M1 down you. He's already an M1 killer.
Every single one of those comparisons you made are fallacious. Literally all of them. You are comparing the cooldown of a killer whose power cannot down you, to half a dozen who can.
And this is why I don't like discussing the game at a high level. Very few people are equipped for this type of discussion
Also, no, Ghoul cannot just "do everything with no effort", that's incredibly disingenuous. His leaps require precision if you're against decent survivors. If you're against weaker survivors then he's super easy to play but that applies to literally every killer so you have no actual point. Survivors that know how to move and know how to make their pathing unpredictable are incredibly tough for Ghoul to go against without just following them around. You only get cut off if your path is predictable (because that is, by definition, what "cutting off" means)
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@Elan said:
I hate Ghoul, but I can see some adjustments to make him more fair and more skillfull.
→ Revert leap distance to 16m
→ Revert 1 token lose when breaking pallet
→ Remove deepwound from grab attack
→ Increase time it takes to vault when enraged by 0.2s
→ Increase cooldown before retaining full movement speed after canceling leap by 0.5s
→ Rework mori to be shorter and less punishing throughout the game
→ Cut in half the time a Ghoul can hold tentacles charged
→ Decrease grab attack maximum distance to 6m
At the moment Ghoul is very easy to play and capable of achieving great results without much thinking, which isn't good design.
P100 high MMR Ghoul main here. I'm seeing a lot of opinions from people who are either very average at the game, or do not fully understand intended design. I want to clarify some of these suggestions and explain why they aren't the best possible solution for Ghoul.
Revert leap distance to 16m
Yes. The initial leap distance reduction was unnecessary. I've been saying this since that change was implemented. All they had to do was reduce the range in which you can grab survivors by two meters, not the range of the entire power by two meters. Hopefully they do this some day because 14 meters does not feel nearly as good to play as 16 did. (It also made Ghoul addon-reliant on Handkerchief, and making Killers addon-reliant is never a good thing.)
Revert 1 token lose when breaking pallet
No. Losing tokens on breaking pallets is designed to counterbalance his ability to catch you outside of loops with his power. If you outplay him at a loop and force him to break the pallet, you should receive a payoff for that. Two tokens is the perfect sweet spot and it is the best alternative to increasing his cancel cooldown (which would be a horrible change because it would remove all the cooler plays you can do with his power if it had a longer cancel cooldown.) Cancel cooldown in this context is referring to the amount of time he has to wait before he can basic attack. You want this to be at its current value because it encourages him to use his power offensively and to cut off Survivor pathing rather than purely for mobility. Losing tokens on pallet break is the best compromise for this mechanic.
Remove deepwound from grab attack
No. Multiple reasons for this.
- From a game design perspective, it "feels weird" to attack an Injured Survivor with your power and for it to just…not do anything. Applying Deep Wound solves this weird feeling problem by still doing some form of "damage".
- As an M1 Killer, Kaneki is extremely vulnerable to Exhaustion perks but especially ones that result in Deep Wound such as Dead Hard. Smart Kaneki players have the option of Deep Wounding an already injured Survivor to shut down their Dead Hard, rewarding intelligent play. Removing this ability will lower Kaneki's skill cap and also make him significantly more vulnerable to exhaustion perks for no good reason as he is already an M1 Killer.
Increase time it takes to vault when enraged by 0.2s
This is by far the worst suggestion here. Absolutely do not do this. His enraged vault is literally his only anti-loop, and it isn't even consistent anti-loop (some loops require some trial-and-error to find out which ones you can actually catch the survivor at if you enraged vault.) The vault itself also has counterplay by staying out of Ghoul's sight if he's on the other side of the pallet so he can't lock onto you to vault. Nerfing the vault just lowers the skillcap of playing against Ghoul for no good reason while also significantly increasing the number of loops in which this maneuver is effectively useless/a time waster for the Killer, and it lessens the value of becoming Enraged. Literally one of the worst possible suggestions.
Increase cooldown before retaining full movement speed after canceling leap by 0.5s
No, for similar reasons as above. At least your suggestion isn't saying to lengthen the delay before his basic attack, but in a similar vein movement is all Ghoul truly has, so reducing his movespeed in any fashion and for any duration is incredibly crippling to his ability to catch up and cut off, which is what he's all about. This is how his power is meant to work. You shouldn't nerf his ability to move in and cut off survivors because that's the aspect of his kit that actually takes skill.
Rework mori to be shorter and less punishing throughout the game
This is mostly a matter of personal taste rather than opinion, and therefore doesn't really belong in a list of balancing suggestions. Additionally, the devs do not balance the game around mori's because they're just for fun/flavor. They don't provide a massive power boost to the Killer. It's just theatrics. Mori's don't need to be something they fine-tune on a razor's edge. It's fine as is (I really enjoy the animation as it is anyway.)
Cut in half the time a Ghoul can hold tentacles charged
No. He needs that time to figure out his pathing to cut off the survivor. Making it harder to do that (by reducing the time he has to plan out his route) disincentivizes using his power in skillful ways. This lowers Ghoul's skill cap (seeing the pattern in your suggestions yet?)
Decrease grab attack maximum distance to 6m
You have to be joking.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/460046/the-ghoul
I don't feel Ghoul currently has issues out of instant cancel to follow up with m1 hit.
You can't adjust this without ruining the killer either. The fast recovery out of power cancel exists to encourage using his power in interesting and skillful ways to cut off survivors at loops or between loops. Similar to Wesker's design, it compels you to use the power in ways that are healthy for the game and engaging for both sides instead of using it purely for mobility, which is what would happen if you nerfed the cancel cooldown. It's fine as-is. The cancel recovery is already at a duration in which he cannot down you if you manage to reach a window or pallet, so nerfing it doesn't make logical sense and would actually ruin the killer's overall design.
The fast cancel recovery, put simply, is how the killer plays at its core.
If you were around during Ghoul's release, there were actually valid arguments for raising the cancel cooldown (despite it still being a terrible idea at the time.) The alternative was to give him a cooldown on his power when breaking a pallet, so that he can't just immediately jump at you afterwards while still maintaining his core design principle (cut off and down.) It's one of the smarter things BHVR has done in terms of balance. The power cooldown when breaking a pallet was already implemented as the alternative to nerfing the cancel recovery. -
@AmahlF said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4025041#Comment_4025041
I've literally been latched on by the ghoul while sitting behind a wall for at least 10 seconds as they are coming towards me. The auto lock on nature of the ability means that it can touch you no matter what in its current state. I've seen it grab people through Shack walls because of the gaps in the wood planks.
Now imagine if it downed you.
You're complaining a lot about a nonlethal power that only serves to unlock his chase potential rather than eliminating you outright. You're insinuating, based on your rhetoric, that his power is a deadly ranged power when in reality it's just an easy injure that leaves him needing to M1 you (which involves mindgames or loops short enough where he can vault and catch you.) The crux of your argument isn't that he's OP, it's just that you don't personally like how his power looks to play against, and while that is a valid opinion, it is not really an actionable complaint.
Everything about Ghoul's injure is visual set-dressing for theatrics. If it didn't work the way it does, he wouldn't be playable.
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@Colt45m said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/460046/the-ghoul
They need to nerf him so his auto hit doesn't hold you in place while he's licking his hand. If BHVR is going to give him a free ranged hit let him get stunned or something.
He already does get self-stunned. That's literally entirely how his enrage mode functions. He gives you a ton of distance while he's crashing out. If you want seamless movement, then you'd have to remove the self-stun to keep the balance (this is actually already how it works sometimes if a survivor gets hit by his power during an animation that prevents them from being held in place; they keep moving and Ghoul's self-stun ends significantly faster)
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It's a mechanic called "favor the shooter." Basically, he already saw you and locked on to you with the attack before you made it behind the wall. The rest is just an animation to mask the hit which is part of the game's theatrics. It's working as intended and completely fine; you are complaining about visuals and not objective game balance.
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@wisdomwielder said:
Disagree on the slugging changes. I don't need to play it to know it's still too much. Any amount of cumulative time slugged for permanent unbreakable is not the way to go and can still be abused. Teammates will leave each other slugged on the ground still because it's more time efficient to do so, even at 120 seconds. Unlocking permanent Unbreakable is too powerful. The slugged resolve concept is fundamentally flawed.
It needs to retain the team component to be okay. Two slugged people should be able to pick each other up after a while. That's the only way to go.
I heavily disagree that 120 cumulative seconds on the ground leading into a self pick-up is a problem. You can make an argument about only being allowed to be picked up one time by yourself, which I would agree with, but I disagree that slugging won't still be useful with these changes.
There can be an argument made about reducing how quickly it ramps up though. 33% per other slugged survivor is way too fast. If you slug two people, they'll both get themselves up at 80-90 seconds (earlier for the first one you slugged.) Otherwise it's fine
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I think the changes look great. It's meant to encourage going for other survivors rather than completely eliminate tunneling as a strategy.
The only thing I disagree with is the removal of the basekit kick buff for killer when you get unique hooks. Everything else looks good and fair.It's a really good changelist imo.
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@Langweilig said:
They should revert it with the coming anti slugging changes. We need some slugging perks when slugging will become mostly pointless.
Honestly, this is not a bad idea. Perks oriented around slugging when slugging at a baseline level is no longer as cancerous would be fine imo. It's only when slugging is inherently toxic that it causes slug-oriented perks to be asinine.
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@Zuiphrode said:
Can we stop calling for nerfs to a killer that hasn't even been out a week? Wait a month or so for the data to come in and for people to find the counters.
I agree.
Feedback needs to be tempered (both by those giving and receiving it) during new releases. This is why BHVR were (rightfully) so careful with Ghoul nerfs. Now he's overall fine. BHVR historically has been laughed at for their nuclear approach to balancing and they've clearly been trying to take a step away from that, so I doubt we'll see any guttings anymore (or at least any time soon).
BHVR's approach to Ghoul gives me faith that Krasue won't receive heavy-handed or knee-jerk nerfs — if any.Also worth noting that Krasue was one of the killers that the (now removed) anti-slugging/anti-tunneling Killer compensations would apply to a lesser degree on, along with Nurse, Billy, Ghoul, and some others. This could mean that BHVR intend Krasue to be among the strongest killers. That doesn't mean she won't be nerfed, but it puts things into context.
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@Foggyguy said:
Honestly I think just making him a 110 movement speed killer would do the trick. Having easy injuries suck but if he at least has some difficulties in getting the down that would make it at least tolerable.
Ah yes, let's make an M1 killer 110% movement speed.
Surely a great and well-informed suggestion.
It's so disingenuous to claim that his downs are easy. The only time it's easy is if you're out of position and he dashes and cancels on top of you, with no windows or pallets nearby. You want to have less of that? You want that to be more forgiving? Position better, loop better. The "solution" is not to neuter the thing the killer is SUPPOSED to be good at doing.
I'm losing my mind on these forums.
There's so many people that think they know what's actually best for the game when in reality it's their personal preference underlined by subconscious personal bias. The reason why you're frustrated when he catches you out in the open is because you're OUT IN THE OPEN, not because he catches you, but subconscious personal bias causes you to lean towards suggesting ridiculous nerfs like making an M1 killer 110% movement speed instead of facing reality.
Increasing the fatigue duration is NOT a viable option either because then there is no incentive to use the power intelligently in a chase and it becomes a pure mobility tool, making the killer piss weak.
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The slide addon was added to his base kit because that's what people enjoyed playing with more. The devs set it up that way because:
- They wanted people to have two addon slots, not only one
- They were internally conflicted about whether the slide addon should be basekit or not, and so allowed the community to decide. It was unanimously chosen to be the slide-addon.
They aren't going to remove something that makes the character more fun.
This is similar in concept to why he can "hit through walls" with his power.
It's called "favor the shooter", which is a very important aspect of first person shooter designs.
I said it back when he first came out to the ignorant masses and I will say it again: It will feel infinitely worse for the Ghoul player to "miss" an attack that landed on a Survivor before they rounded a corner, than it does for the survivor to get hit around that corner.
Removing that safety net will singlehandedly neuter the killer's gameplay consistency. 100%. It was playtested for a reason. They realized this was necessary — and it is.
To put it simply, for how strong Kaneki is, he is very easy to play. A foundational reasoning on killer design for DBD is that if a killer is going to be strong, they need to be difficult to play to some degree, whether it is some form of difficult mechanic or game knowledge required to play the killer well.
Disingenuous argument. Kaneki is an M1 killer. He cannot catch you without outplaying you at a loop. He MUST win a mindgame to catch you (and yes, vaulting onto you through a window is mindgaming because it has to be his second leap, giving you time to react.) You can injure people easily, yes, but so can Legion but you don't see anyone complaining about Legion being too strong. Ghoul and Legion have extremely similar chase profiles. Easy injure, while they have to work for the down.
Kaneki just flings himself towards your direction, gets his free tag, catches up again, and hopes he can win a 50/50. To put it simply, he is too easy to be this strong
This is also a disingenuous argument. You can literally apply this same thought process to every killer in the game. Legion injures you for free, eventually catches up to you, and hopes to win a 50/50. "He just plays to win the 50/50" is an argument you can apply to literally every killer and even survivor. It doesn't strengthen any of your points. Killers who play intelligently don't allow their plan to boil down to 50/50's, and survivors who know the correct loops to kite a killer towards also will not be beholden to 50/50's. It's about playing the game intelligently. "He just plays for 50/50's" is just an even more bad-faith way to say "all he does is camp" "all he does is tunnel" it's a moot argument.
Besides, he pays actual tradeoffs for his ease of injure. He has more mobility than Legion but can only injure one person at a time instead of potentially everyone. He has more chase power than Legion but less than Dracula and Nurse because he has more mobility and Deep Wound. He's balanced as-is.
Solution? Decrease his basekit slide by 25-30%. This is a very simple, yet very effective fix for Ghoul
No, that's a very simple and effective way to totally break the Killer. His design is based around finding the opportune moment to dash around obstacles and cancel your power at the right time to catch your prey. Making him slide less will simultaneously reduce his chase power and his mobility, both of which do not need more nerfs (they were already reduced from 16m to 14m which to this day is still the worst change they've done since all it really did was make the cursor turn white more often because it can't latch to terrain as much anymore which is incredibly annoying.)
@PetTheDoggo said:
I think sliding is perfectly fine and it made him more fun to play, issue is the ability to fully cancel both his dash and slide at any point, which means it's pathetically easily to end your dash next to a survivor.
That is absolutely not an issue. If you remove his ability to cancel then you remove all the skill expression from his kit. You misunderstand how the Killer works. You're literally arguing for something that will lower his skill cap while misperceiving it as something that will make him less easy to play. Removing cancels won't make him less easy, it will make him unable to express mastery over the character at all. Knowing when to cancel your power is a huge part of Ghoul's skill cap and what separates bad Ghouls from good Ghouls. He NEEDS to be able to cancel his power to:
- Reward precise positioning of the dash
- Punish out-of-position survivors
You wouldn't reduce Deathslinger's projectile travel speed, right? Even though that would make him "less easy" to play? It's your same exact logic. You would remove Deathslinger's reward for precise aiming in catching his prey because you think it'd take "more skill" your way. No. Killers are supposed to be strong.
BHVR needed to choose between removing Ghoul's ability to cancel (making him extremely clunky and awkward to play, removing reward for good positioning, etc.) or adding a cooldown to his power when he breaks pallets (to retain his high skill cap and reward precise dashes while still allowing Survivors some breathing room if they manage to safely play a pallet.) Obviously the latter is what they went with and it is infinitely better than anything I've seen people suggest here. -
@Jtflorencio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3899403#Comment_3899403
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3899403#Comment_3899403
What buffs would you make to Fire Up and Forever Entwined? @Leon_Loves_Cheryl
You mean aside from the ones I already suggested?
What's the point of this question?
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The implementation of MMR made me quit until Kaneki's release.
I don't like being punished for winning. I don't want my fun casual game to be slowly malformed into something hyper-competitive just because I win a lot. Back then, I also played primarily the weaker killers like Legion and Ghostface so I suffered even more for being good.
"But Leon, you can still 4k at top MMR with those killers!"
You're missing the point. -
@DigitalisObscura said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923942#Comment_3923942
These are some pretty bad faith arguments. Not being able to down with it isn't a price, and really isn't pertinent to the point I was making. A hit scan that takes a health state just isn't healthy for the game, whether or not it downs. Your next point also doesn't make a lot of sense because regardless of how free the hit from Ghoul's power is, he still DOES take two hits to down. It seems like you're trying to draw a comparison here that doesn't fit. You even acknowledge that in the next sentence so not sure why you didn't just edit that tangent out.
The next one you make is especially egregious. Demogorgon's Shred isn't a hitscan. The power not being able to down is, again, beside the point - but also doesn't really have anything to do with "invulnerability". You then repeat that one hit downs are good game design despite neither Demo nor Ghoul falling into that category. You're using a lot of formatting to insist that I'm being emotional about this, unclear where you're drawing this conclusion from.
Your above explanation on the enraged vault is just that you feel it's fine, which really isn't conclusive or convincing evidence. We have previous killers who have had similar functions on their powers that have had to have them toned back. Ghoul's enraged vault is stronger than any set precedent, all of which had to be nerfed.
So, sorry you want to get emotional about it and project that on me because it's a killer you enjoy playing. I am just looking at how other killers function and the balance changes that have needed to be made on them over time and noting that Ghoul has the same issues, only exacerbated because the hitscan power has even less room for counterplay and interaction. That's just facts.
I didn't say you were being emotional. You misinterpreted and, ironically, became emotional as a result. What a disingenuous comment all around. I just said that the way you feel about the game's fundamental mechanics aren't ideal to balance around because you want every killer to respect two health states. Legion doesn't respect having two health states and he's still one of the weakest killers in the entire game. My point is made.
Not being able to down with it isn't a price
Oh yeah? So Dracula, Demo, Nemesis, et al. just get to down you with their power for free. By your logic Ghoul would be even stronger because you're under the false impression that there's no power budget in an ability that can down a survivor. If not being able to down with the power isn't a tradeoff, then just make all powers down since that's your balance philosophy. Enjoy Legion getting 4k's in 30 seconds.
Too bad for you that you cannot be invulnerable against a power that doesn't down you. Ridiculous. As a reminder to anyone lurking:
Inane logic. What an asinine argument.
Ghoul also doesn't have "the same issues". I'm assuming you're alluding to Chucky's Scamper, which is a disingenuous comparison. Ghoul can't fastvault whenever he wants.
I won't respond to you again. I'm not your mirror, don't project on me. I didn't personally attack you or claim you were arguing emotionally. That's your interpretation which you then projected onto me. Go self-reflect. I deserve better.
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@ad19970 said:
I heavily disagree. I have been playing a lot of Kaneki the last few days and he is still incredibly fun in my opinion, but now much fairer. Him losing two tokens after breaking a pallet is a fantastic nerf if you ask me, because it gives survivors exactly what they needed: more time to reach some kind of resource so they have more counterplay against Kaneki. Having him break the pallet and then immediately catch up to you is not very fun for survivor.
And the hindered nerf was also important, now survivors can actually get around the loop after he vaults the pallet in enraged mode and participate in a mindgame instead of just going down.
Yeah I agree.
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@DigitalisObscura said:
Personally, no nerf will be enough as long as he has a hitscan ability that takes a health state. It's unhealthy for the game on the most basic, conceptual level. The comparisons to Legion or Nurse are frankly not even close to how he functions when he can get the hit on you if he can see even a pixel of your hitbox in the split second it takes for him to click on it. If it needs to be hitscan it shouldn't take a health state, or have a lot of restrictions on when it can do that in the same way Nemmy's whip needs to infect targets before it can take a health state. The enraged vault speed modifier should also be entirely removed, and it shouldn't trigger Bamboozle (a lesson I thought we learned with Wesker but I guess not).
The price he has to pay for having an easy injure is that he can't down you with it. Your entire argument is based on your feeling that you want to have two health states against every killer. It's good game design that some killers shake this paradigm up. Your rhetoric is flawed because it's purely based on the fact that you "fundamentally" feel like having two health states should always be the "default".
The funny thing is, it's not even like Kaneki can ignore a full health state. You ARE safer. He has to pounce on you and chomp you, yes it is easy but you get a speed boost to go somewhere else while he's crashing out. So yes, there are in fact benefits to being full HP against Kaneki if you're working on a generator in a risky area, for example (few pallets/windows, short loops, etc.)
If it needs to be hitscan it shouldn't take a health state
Then what's the point? I swear, some suggestions I read on here are ridiculous. Yeah just make Demogorgon's pounce not damage you. Yeah let's just suggest things that completely ruin the game. He can't DOWN you with the power, why do you want to be invulnerable? As I said earlier, it's good game design to make killers that spice up the two health states mechanic. You're basing your argument purely off of your feeling that you should always have two health states and that's not the case because the game is not that boring. Imagine if Exposed didn't exist. Mechanics (and killers) like this exist to spice up the flow. DBD is successful because it isn't always predictable.
The enraged vault speed modifier should also be entirely removed
I went on about this already up above so I'm not going to engage with this part of your comment. TL:DR nerfing the enraged vault would give people no reason to use Ghoul over Wesker. Read above for the explanation.
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@Langweilig said:
A good nerf for him would have been shorting the time you have between leaping onto something and reducing the hitscan hitbox, which is still too big. Both of these changes would make a little more difficult to play and reward playing good with him rather than playing bad.
I wouldn't be against shortening the time he has to choose where to go - not that I feel like any more nerfs are at all necessary at this point.
The survivor clickbox and linger duration are both fine now in my opinion. I now very rarely encounter moments where I accidentally pounce on them when I wanted to latch onto geometry.
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@Wezqu said:
Remove his ability to target survivors on first leap and makes his leap over pallets to take little bit longer and some other minor tweaks.
(I will be using pictures to help make my comment more readable)
The enraged vault doesn't need a nerf. The killer is pretty balanced overall after the latest nerfs (I still wish they didn't reduce his dash range by 2m and instead just reduced the range in which he can grab onto survivors by that amount, but oh well)
Any reduction to the vault speed would be detrimental to the character. He needs to vault fast because his power is nonlethal. If you make him slower he's just a Legion that injures far more slowly and moves around the map more quickly.
Let's take Wesker for example.
Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault in order to M1 you since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
It just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you. And as @Daniel_Silva04 said, you have the option of greeding the pallet to take advantage of the slowdown while his power is out. It's a mindgame. Will he wait for you to drop the pallet and try to vault into you? Or will he ignore the pallet and try to hit you? This is what makes DBD interesting even after all these years for many people.
There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead. There are fundamental reasons why Wesker's vault takes longer and Kaneki's is shorter.
If Kaneki's enraged vault was any slower there'd be no reason to use it most of the time. Just play Wesker instead. They don't want to make another Legion where the power is 99% useless in the loop itself. They don't want to make another C or B tier killer.
Also keep in mind that Ghoul is a chase killer. They're not a stealth killer or a pressure killer. The ONLY thing Ghoul can do is chase. So if you nerf their ability to chase, you're ruining the character holistically. The enraged vault would be OP on Ghostface because he can also sneak and oneshot you. Ghoul MUST chase you and MUST M1 you.
Comparing the enraged vault to Scamper is also disingenuous because chucky could crawl under pallets whenever he wanted to. Kaneki needs to be enraged, have line of sight of you, and needs to be direct opposite of a window or pallet to you, and it needs to be his first dash because the second/third will damage you instead of vaulting (unless the target is marked.)
The Enraged Vault is perfectly fine. Weakening it would give you no meaningful reason to play Ghoul over Wesker.
As a Kaneki main, the latest nerf has already put the character in a perfectly balanced spot. I like that they are focusing on giving his power an artificial cooldown on breaking pallets, rewarding survivors for outmaneuvering Kaneki around a loop. This is ONE MILLION TIMES BETTER than screwing with his vault (which severely weakens his chase threat) and ruining his fatigue (which would heavily disincentivize using his power at all outside of map mobility)
Again, as I said earlier, the ONE THING that kinda sucks is the overall range nerf on the power instead of just nerfing the range in which he could grab survivors. His mobility didn't need to be reduced overall, just the range in which he could grab survivors needed that two meter nerf. Otherwise, the character is 100% perfectly fine right now. His strongest aspects (the enraged vault and his cancel fatigue) are what make him who he is. You wouldn't take away Billy's dash, you wouldn't take away Ghostface's oneshot, so you shouldn't take away Ghoul's enraged vault. It's the only thing that makes his power usable in a chase around a pallet or window. The only thing. He used to have hugtechs in the PTB but they were removed to make his power less usable in chase.
He's 100% fine rn.
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I'm actually 99% happy with how BHVR have been dealing with Kaneki as a Ghoul main. Giving his power a cooldown on breaking pallets is absolutely the most fair way to nerf him for both sides, compared to messing with his cooldown fatigue (which would ruin his potential for skillful plays) or messing with his enraged vault (which would make him a weaker version of Wesker.)
The one and only thing that I dislike about BHVR's changes to Ghoul is the two meter range nerf. I don't believe his mobility needed a nerf holistically, I think it would've been just fine to nerf the survivor grab range by those two meters instead and leave the dash range alone. But aside from that, the character is seriously well-balanced in my opinion.
I'm actually proud of BHVR for their…well, behavior in adjusting Ghoul. They've been infamous for "gutting" characters and have taken a lot of flak for it historically, and their treatment of Ghoul shows that they are not only willing, but trying to change for the better. Again, I just wish the two meter range nerf didn't happen but the character is still a total blast to play and it doesn't feel like I'm handicapping myself by picking him.
The only alternatives to giving his power an artificial cooldown on pallet break, would absolutely ruin the character. Nerfing the enraged vault should not happen because Wesker would be better in every way. (The reason why Wesker has a slower vault is because he can M2 you. Kaneki cannot.) Nerfing the power cancel fatigue would also ruin the character because he would be heavily disincentivized to ever use the power during a loop which is the fun part of playing Killer. They don't want his power to just be "I move around the map lol." Swinging around obstacles with the power and cancelling it at JUST the right time is what makes the killer who he is. You CANNOT nerf these aspects of him without ruining him.
So their solution (and it IS a great solution) is to give a forced cooldown when you break a pallet, which makes 100% perfect sense and is fair for both sides without ruining the killer.
Honestly I would like to see the forced cooldown thing on more killers and compensate them with buffs. Take one token away from Wesker when he breaks a pallet but give him more range on both dashes. Take both tokens away from Nurse. Take 2 tokens from Blight and let him dash faster. Give Kaneki his two meters back. It's a REALLY good way to nerf a killer while keeping what makes them strong, strong.
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@ad19970 said:
In my opinion Kaneki is pretty much in a perfect state now. If anything he might need one more tiny nerf and that's it. He is still very strong, but actually pretty balanced now.
Kaneki is still incredibly good at getting injuries. On top of that, he easily has some of the best mobiltiy of any killer in the game. I also fail to see how he is just an M1 killer after injuring survivors. Sure he can't down with his M2, but he can still catch up to survivors incredibly well with his power, just not as oppressively any more thanks to the cooldown nerf after he breaks pallets.
Sure, survivors can go the other way when you try to catch up to them with your power, but you as a killer can also predict that. It's not bad when survivors have some form of counterplay anyways. Not to mention you are most likely cutting them off from where they wanted to run to, potentially making them run to an unsafer spot, or even a deadzone in some cases.
I think the last 2 nerfs Kaneki received were perfect, and he is now in a pretty good spot.
The reason why he's an M1 killer is because his power only provides mobility. Yes he can chase you and down you, but only if you're out in the open without anything nearby to use, such as a pallet or window. It makes perfect sense that Kaneki can down you in situations like this because ranged killers and other dash killers like Wesker can achieve the same result in the same area. Kaneki is unique because he can potentially swing around obstacles, raising his skillcap tremendously without being as unfair to play against as Nurse going through obstacles. In other words, he still has to EARN the down on you, he just does it in a unique way, and he's still heavily countered by pallets and windows, making him an M1 killer.
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@VibranToucan said:
Im sorry but a lot of that is just not true.
Yeah, he can't hit you with his power to get the down, but he still has his power. He can still use it to catch up, he can slide cancel to get the advantage of high mobility without the attack cooldown. He can also still use it to lock the Survivor in place and vault extremely fast on pretty much any dropped pallet or window.
And he is not a worse legion, he has arguably the best mobility ability in the game giving him fast but unrestrained mobility with a relatively short Cooldown.
If you mess with the attack cooldown, you will end up with a worse Legion.
He would also feel very slow and clunky because he is foundationally not designed to just stare at you for several seconds while cancelling power. The cancel fatigue is balanced around whether or not he was able to outmaneuver you. 9 times out of 10, if he failed to outmaneuver you, you will still reach the pallet. That's the point of the fatigue and it correctly does its job. It doesn't need to be raised higher.
The concession they made to deal with the "break pallet then jump and instadown" problem (which absolutely was a problem) was by adding an artificial cooldown to his power when he breaks pallets. It was a genius way to balance the killer without touching the fatigue.
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I'm actually 99% happy with how BHVR have been dealing with Kaneki as a Ghoul main. Giving his power a cooldown on breaking pallets is absolutely the most fair way to nerf him for both sides, compared to messing with his cooldown fatigue (which would ruin his potential for skillful plays) or messing with his enraged vault (which would make him a weaker version of Wesker.)
The one and only thing that I dislike about BHVR's changes to Ghoul is the two meter range nerf. I don't believe his mobility needed a nerf holistically, I think it would've been just fine to nerf the survivor grab range by those two meters instead and leave the dash range alone. But aside from that, the character is seriously well-balanced in my opinion.
I'm actually proud of BHVR for their…well, behavior in adjusting Ghoul. They've been infamous for "gutting" characters and have taken a lot of flak for it historically, and their treatment of Ghoul shows that they are not only willing, but trying to change for the better. Again, I just wish the two meter range nerf didn't happen but the character is still a total blast to play and it doesn't feel like I'm handicapping myself by picking him.
The only alternatives to giving his power an artificial cooldown on pallet break, would absolutely ruin the character. Nerfing the enraged vault should not happen because Wesker would be better in every way. (The reason why Wesker has a slower vault is because he can M2 you. Kaneki cannot.) Nerfing the power cancel fatigue would also ruin the character because he would be heavily disincentivized to ever use the power during a loop which is the fun part of playing Killer. They don't want his power to just be "I move around the map lol." Swinging around obstacles with the power and cancelling it at JUST the right time is what makes the killer who he is. You CANNOT nerf these aspects of him without ruining him.
So their solution (and it IS a great solution) is to give a forced cooldown when you break a pallet, which makes 100% perfect sense and is fair for both sides without ruining the killer.
Honestly I would like to see the forced cooldown thing on more killers and compensate them with buffs. Take one token away from Wesker when he breaks a pallet but give him more range on both dashes. Take both tokens away from Nurse. Take 2 tokens from Blight and let him dash faster. Give Kaneki his two meters back.
It's a REALLY good way to nerf a killer while keeping what makes them strong, strong.
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@Langweilig said:
In the future it might be time for such a change, but not yet. Removing haste and hindered stacking should only be done, when they‘ve looked at all of the haste/hindered addons/perks. In the last patch behavior forgot 90% of the perks/addons that needed adjustments and they would have made more perks/addons useless than better. At the moment there is no need for removing stacking. They can try it again in some time, but there need to be changes to justify it and they need to be a lot.
Aside from that, Bloodpact and power of two are not an argument against stacking, because those perks rely on stacking to be worth running. If they are a problem, blood pact should get reworked and power of two buffed. I can‘t think of another example that could be problematic.
…Those perks are arguments against stacking because they need to be stacked to be worth anything.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919136#Comment_3919136
I think fundamentally I don't see your argument that Kaneki without enraged vault suddenly becomes a D tier killer.
You're not necessarily wrong in how you describe Kaneki's power working, but you tend to argue in absolutes, and massively overplay the strength of Legion and Ghost Face and end up insinuating they are on par to Kaneki, and essentially act like Kaneki's cut off power is completely toothless. It simply is not, and trying to claim as such puts a major question mark in how biased your argument is. The fundamental fact is Kaneki is not particularly hard to play, and has strength that is comparable to top tier killers like Blight and Wesker, and that is an opinion shared by many players both on killer and survivor side. Low skill floor, high skill ceiling.
I am not saying Kaneki needs to be gutted, I've stated mutliple times he needs his kidnap tech removed, and he needs to then be reviewed in strength. The killer hasn't even been out a month so I don't know for sure how strong he is, but what I do know is this killer is proving harder to adapt to for me than any other killer I've faced to date, and I'm exploring the ideas around why he feels so much more oppressive to play against than any other m1 killer.
For example, Wraith can do the same body blocking strategies as Kaneki and has similar (though weaker) levels of map traversal. Wraith is much easier to handle at loops via greeding pallets given that his uncloak is highly telegraphed and predictable. Kaneki's vault is also highly telegraphed and predictable, and yet I get hit by Kaneki's vault much more often than I get hit by Wraith's uncloak, and often at tiles that are supposed to heavily favour the survivor.
I've played Kaneki myself and even when I'm fumbling my controls and botching my inputs, I still don't feel like I'm weak. I've deliberately played him without exploiting his nastier abilities or builds, and even when I've gotten a 1k, I can feel how much of the killers potential I'm not using. On several occasions I scored hots where I was genuinely sat thinking "yep... that guy had literally nowhere to go". I'm still new to him, and I'm reserving judgement, but as a regular Trapper, Pig, Myer player, this "he becomes D tier" argument is plain bogus.
The fundamental fact of DBD is killer strength is typically tempered by how easy they are to play. Across the whole roster the ease of landing hits tends to correlate to the max potential of the killer. Legion, Wraith and Ghost Face are quite easy to play, so have a pretty firm upper bound on their skill cap. Blight and Billy are quite hard to play, and take time to learn, so have a huge maximum potential but are also rather inaccessible to new players.
The argument I am stressing is this enraged vault is not at all hard to do. It doesn't take much skill or preparation to use it, and it is highly rewarding on a killer that does also have a lot of additional strengths to accompany it, and beyond learning to cancel his swing at the right time doesn't have that much difficulty to him.... just his mobility alone eliminates pretty all macro skills required, because he can easily get back to gens, hooks and slugs without any time concerns, something that all other examples you've provided cannot.
I did not at all "insinuate" that Legion and Ghostface are on Ghoul's level of power lmao. That has absolutely nothing to do with any of the points that I made. I'm not going to engage with the rest of this comment.
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<mispost, please remove>
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919054#Comment_3919054
I don't think anyone is being disingenuous, and I have said repeatedly that the correct thing to do is remove his Kidnap Tech and reassess. I think everyone is being quite reasonable in this discussion.
However to address the Legion comparison, the major difference between Kaneki and Legion is Legion's mobility doesn't allow him to drop back to downing people with m1s whilst still moving at high speed.
Legion only moves in Feral Frenzy between 5.2m/s and 5.92m/s (if you're on your fourth hit you obviously don't try to cut off, you just down). In order to hit survivors moving around tiles, they can cut off and block windows, but it is rare they can make it to the window or pallet first. They move at 2.3m/s in fatigue for 2.5s (which was only recently buffed mind you), and it allows them to close distance, bit to actually get ahead is usually not possible.
Kaneki on the other hand can move at 14m/s with a leap, can land right next to or just ahead of a survivor with a 2s recovery at 1.6m/s. The difference is obviously that Kaneki's ability to land where he needs to be to ensures the Survivor has the maximum time to make safety possible is vastly superior to Legion's power at most tiles. Legion is forced to keep walking after the Survivor until the Survivor is in a position where they can't reach safety to drop his power, Kaneki can be much more active with this, as the OP cites in their usage of the killer.
Both killers can vault, Legion take 0.9s to do so, but Legion has this 2.5s recovery at 2.3m/s. Kaneki meanwhile with Enraged vaults at 1.0s with a 1.25s recovery at 2m/s, and also applies a 50% hinder on the survivor for 1.0s.
Would you therefore say that Legion should have their recovery after a vault dropped to 1s to compensate? This is the exciting and "skillful" gameplay we're talking about for Kaneki? Cause to me, this looks quite blatantly like a no skill free down at vast majority of tiles.
Right, but Kaneki would also be really weak if his cancel recovery was longer. He would also feel very slow and clunky because he is foundationally not designed to just stare at you for several seconds while cancelling power. The cancel fatigue is balanced around whether or not he was able to outmaneuver you. 9 times out of 10, if he failed to outmaneuver you, you will still reach the pallet. That's the point of the fatigue and it correctly does its job. It doesn't need to be raised higher. The concession they made to deal with the "break pallet then jump and instadown" problem (which absolutely was a problem) was by adding an artificial cooldown to his power when he breaks pallets. It was a genius way to balance the killer without touching the fatigue.
Both killers can vault, Legion take 0.9s to do so, but Legion has this 2.5s recovery at 2.3m/s. Kaneki meanwhile with Enraged vaults at 1.0s with a 1.25s recovery at 2m/s, and also applies a 50% hinder on the survivor for 1.0s.
I fail to see your point. Legion gives you more distance because he can injure you and your entire team in 5 seconds. In the same amount of time, Kaneki just finished injuring one person and being stuck enraging afterward. Thus you cannot nerf Kaneki's vault without making him weaker than both Legion and Wesker. Kaneki already has a built-in Legion stun when he gets the injure. You are asking to ruin the killer. The whole design is to dash, outmaneuver, and if successful, cancel and down someone. That's the whole killer.
What's the point of making his vault as niche as Wesker's if it can't down you? Wesker's dash is slower because they don't want him to brainlessly fallback on M1'ing you if you're outplaying his power at a pallet. Kaneki can ONLY M1 you. Nerfing the vault would destroy the killer.
What's the point of making his cancel fatigue longer? So you can get outplayed and just shrug your shoulders and turn around and run to a different pallet/window? It's balanced this way so he can be rewarded for catching you/blocking you from a resource. If you nerf the cancel fatigue then he's just "catch up simulator" because there'd be no reason to try to use his power during loops like Shack for example because even if you outmaneuver the survivor, they would have enough time to just laugh and walk away. The cancel fatigue is fine exactly as it is.
The killer is SUPPOSED to be rewarded for outmaneuvering you, this is how he is designed. The artificial cooldown already exists so that he doesn't get skill-free downs on you between loops if he breaks a pallet.
I'm frustrated with people wanting to make Wesker hilariously outshine this killer. Ghoul and Wesker should BOTH be allowed to be good in their respective niches. As I've said before, if Ghoul's vault is slow, you might as well play Wesker so you can have a slow vault but at least have a power that also downs people. You're trying to take away the niche that Ghoul is meant to fulfill without understanding it.
The balance is ideal as it is. Wesker has less map mobility but a lethal power. Legion has almost no map mobility but injures everyone easily and efficiently. Ghoul has easy injures (but not efficient injures) and a ton of mobility but a non-lethal power. It's fine as it is.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3918994#Comment_3918994
While there is a lot there, and there is some stuff I see the merit of, some I do not, one point leaves me in real bind...
Can you explain to me how Ghost Face is busted with a Ghoul vault on an exposed target vs. Ghoul with his vault after a hitscan ranged injury with a very forgiving auto aim? You are in effect exposed vs. Ghoul for all intents and purposes, and this is what makes the Wesker argument less viable. While Weskers power is stronger for downing survivors, Wesker has to outplay his opponent twice, while Ghoul does not.
Ghoul can prevent hold W from pallet to window to pallet. A skilled Ghoul can literally get a basically guaranteed hit around the back of shack by leaping around it and landing next to the survivor. Ghost Face does not have the ability to handle these things, and also loses significant time to numerous survivor perks like Lithe, Sprint Burst, Dead Hard, Off the Record, Decisive Strike, whereas Ghoul is barely hindered at all by any of these things.
A killer like Ghoul with the ability to injure so quickly would normally be countered by not healing, except because he has this strong vault AND the ability to drop right next to you if you're even a little far from safety, you have to heal against him... assuming you even can if he decides to run back to hook and tunnel.
As I've stated before, Ghoul has exceptionally good synergy with perks. Arguably the best Bamboozle user, excellent with Dissolution or Spirit Fury, is probably the best user of Friends Til the End, and the stealth argument is moot when there are perks like Unforseen, Trail of Torment and Hex:Plaything that he can make very solid use of.
As I said, maybe he doesn't need more removing that Kidnap Tech, but this narrative that teh Ghoul is a weak m1 killer after his initial injury is to be frank... laughable.
I already made it clear. Not sure how else I can word it for you. Ghoul is a chase killer, so he has a strong chase power. Ghostface is a stealth killer that can come out of somewhere unexpected and oneshot you, so he would be overpowered if he had Ghoul's vault. You have to understand that what makes a killer good is what they're supposed to have. You wouldn't take away Trapper's traps, you wouldn't take away Artist's crows, so you can't take away Ghoul's vault. It has to be fast enough to be worth using so he's not just Legion in chase. We already have Legion. BHVR doesn't want to make another weak chase killer.
In other words, every killer has their own niche. Legion can injure everybody very efficiently, which is why he isn't good at actually getting people down. Kaneki is similar because, while he is a pure M1 killer, he can use his power in interesting ways to outmaneuver and block survivors in order to earn his downs. If you nerf his mobility (and the enraged vault does count as mobility) then he'll become very weak, because he can't injure as efficiently as Legion can and his power can't down whereas Wesker's can.
I must reiterate that Ghoul will become just a glorified Legion if you nerf his enraged vault. Again, his vault is faster than Wesker's because Wesker's power can down you. Kaneki can vault fast but the tradeoff is that his power cannot down you and he gives you time to head to another tile. If he enrage vaults on you and you don't have time to reach another tile/window/pallet, you should get downed. I feel like some people are arguing this topic in bad faith - the survivor should go down without a solid setup. The killer should be strong overall.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919006#Comment_3919006
How exactly would my change ruin it?
He would still be able to bodyblock by sliding in front of survivor to block pallet / window. That would be possible.
Only thing different would be, you can't simply cancel your power if survivor tries to double back.Being able to cancel your power is the whole point. It's why the character's skill cap is so high and it's what gives him the ability to dynamically adjust his positioning. Your suggestion is equivalent to forcing Blight to sprint at the maximum possible range every time before he's allowed to bounce.
It is actually,
genuinely,
not even kidding,
the worst suggestion I have ever heard anyone make for this killer so far. The survivor already makes distance if they double back, the cancel is just there for precision. You can't completely stop mid air so doubling back is valid counterplay, plus you are slowed while recovering.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917476#Comment_3917476
Making him always slide would hinder his anti loop skill expression i dont think thats a good idea
Quite the opposite, there is little to no skill expression now.
Ghoul is something considered to be fine with free hit, because he is supposed to be difficult to down survivor, which now is simply not true.If he would alway slide, ghoul would have to know where to leap so he is going to slide next to survivor, instead of just pressing button right next to them.
Then it would be something impressive if he managed to slide in front of you and block a pallet, right now it's just too easy.
Also he never slides on his last leap, so you can use that if you want to simply get behind survivor anyway in exactly same way if you would cancel now. You just can't use it on first leap…
His entire skill ceiling is in using the power intelligently to bodyblock survivors and cut them off during/between loops. Your suggestion would ruin what makes the killer.
The community just has a lot of growing pains with adapting to a killer that brings a totally new spin on the concept of anti-loop. Just give it time. The killer's fine after their latest changes, he doesn't need any more nerfs.
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(I will be using pictures to help make my comment more readable)
The enraged vault doesn't need a nerf. The killer is pretty balanced overall after the latest nerfs (I still wish they didn't reduce his dash range by 2m and instead just reduced the range in which he can grab onto survivors by that amount, but oh well)
Any reduction to the vault speed would be detrimental to the character. He needs to vault fast because his power is nonlethal. If you make him slower he's just a Legion that injures far more slowly and moves around the map more quickly.
Let's take Wesker for example.
Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault in order to M1 you since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
It just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you. And as @Daniel_Silva04 said, you have the option of greeding the pallet to take advantage of the slowdown while his power is out. It's a mindgame. Will he wait for you to drop the pallet and try to vault into you? Or will he ignore the pallet and try to hit you? This is what makes DBD interesting even after all these years for many people.
There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead. There are fundamental reasons why Wesker's vault takes longer and Kaneki's is shorter.
If Kaneki's enraged vault was any slower there'd be no reason to use it most of the time. Just play Wesker instead. They don't want to make another Legion where the power is 99% useless in the loop itself. They don't want to make another C or B tier killer.
Also keep in mind that Ghoul is a chase killer. They're not a stealth killer or a pressure killer. The ONLY thing Ghoul can do is chase. So if you nerf their ability to chase, you're ruining the character holistically. The enraged vault would be OP on Ghostface because he can also sneak and oneshot you. Ghoul MUST chase you and MUST M1 you.
Comparing the enraged vault to Scamper is also disingenuous because chucky could crawl under pallets whenever he wanted to. Kaneki needs to be enraged, have line of sight of you, and needs to be direct opposite of a window or pallet to you, and it needs to be his first dash because the second/third will damage you instead of vaulting (unless the target is marked.)
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(I will be using pictures to help make my comment more readable)
The enraged vault doesn't need a nerf. The killer is pretty balanced overall after the latest nerfs (I still wish they didn't reduce his dash range by 2m and instead just reduced the range in which he can grab onto survivors by that amount, but oh well)
Any reduction to the vault speed would be detrimental to the character. He needs to vault fast because his power is nonlethal. If you make him slower he's just a Legion that injures far more slowly and moves around the map more quickly.
Let's take Wesker for example.Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault in order to M1 you since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
It just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you. And as @Daniel_Silva04 said, you have the option of greeding the pallet to take advantage of the slowdown while his power is out. It's a mindgame. Will he wait for you to drop the pallet and try to vault into you? Or will he ignore the pallet and try to hit you? This is what makes DBD interesting even after all these years for many people.
There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead. There are fundamental reasons why Wesker's vault takes longer and Kaneki's is shorter.
If Kaneki's enraged vault was any slower there'd be no reason to use it most of the time. Just play Wesker instead. They don't want to make another Legion where the power is 99% useless in the loop itself. They don't want to make another C or B tier killer.
Also keep in mind that Ghoul is a chase killer. They're not a stealth killer or a pressure killer. The ONLY thing Ghoul can do is chase. So if you nerf their ability to chase, you're ruining the character holistically. The enraged vault would be OP on Ghostface because he can also sneak and oneshot you. Ghoul MUST chase you and MUST M1 you.
Comparing the enraged vault to Scamper is also disingenuous because chucky could crawl under pallets whenever he wanted to. Kaneki needs to be enraged, have line of sight of you, and needs to be direct opposite of a window or pallet to you, and it needs to be his first dash because the second/third will damage you instead of vaulting (unless the target is marked.)
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@Hexonthebeach said:
I would like to choose the border no matter which lvl the character is.
Agreed 100% (pun intended.) Show the correct prestige level, but let us choose which emblem to display.
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@LordHeXaGoN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914692#Comment_3914692
Dude, wesker can and will punish you if you did a pre drop and in that moment he used his dash.Kaneki dc, he'll vault any way.
Even his grab for some reason can stuck you in place if you dont have kagune mark. SO HE CAN DOWN you with m2. Right now with these "nerfs" HE CAN. Before he just injure you, now he can vault after you and in that moment you STUCK, if you are a bit away from a pallet you droped.So there is a decision, stay in and get injure, and possible wont get downed, or walk a bit away and STUCK in place when ghoul trying to bite you and get downed any way.
Even with MFT you barely have distance to make it, if he vault after you. If you are not injured you are cooked.
This guy dont have any sence to stay in the game like this.
He must suffer like every other killer does.
Kaneki wasnt made with sence, he was rushed. Easy power to get value. One "Gang/band" had the simillar problem.(Legion)
Even hillbilly, my boy have some hard things to learn. You just cant pressing m2 over and over again, overdrive can ruin some things. But he is still beter than kaneki for me.
Because Kaneki was born to be skullmerchant, his kit is doomed to be nerfed until he will turn into trash. Sad to admit that. Ehh… bipolar forum there you can offer your suggestion, but there is 1000-7 mains, that will downvote you for it, and say that you re on one side or another, even if you opinion was liked, in another post same opinion will be doomed.
He wont stay like this for long. No one will. Game should be about surviviors who's escaping. And another player as a Killer dont need to be there. Waiting when killer bots will be added…Why are you talking like it's a bad thing that his anti-pallet grief can down someone? That's the whole point. It doesn't count as a power that can down you if you need to disrespect the killer at a vault for it to work. The mechanic literally only exists to prevent griefing. Complaining about getting downed by a vault power is ridiculous. Don't disrespect the killer at the pallet/window and you'll be perfectly fine. Don't play dumb and you won't be downed by the power.
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Agreed. The range in which you could pounce on survivors needed that two meter nerf - not the power's range holistically. I agree it feels more annoying to use for no good reason. On top of that, the killer is now hyper-reliant on the Handkerchief addon, and historically addon reliance has been awful to play with because it kills build diversity.
I think Ghoul's entire changelist was absolutely really good and made him a lot more fair, with pretty much every change perfectly hitting the mark - EXCEPT this one.
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Okay well first of all, Boil Over "builds" are ridiculously toxic and the perk has been very long overdue for some health changes.
Second, sabotaging was buffed to be significantly faster so that it's still a compelling playstyle. It works, especially if you use some Endurance perks like Dead Hard to tank multiple hits while your buddy wiggles out. It's hard, but it's supposed to be. The whole point of the chase is to stop the Killer from getting you - the game is not about trolling the killer's hooks after their prey has already been caught. It's possible, just difficult, and that's intentional.
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@LordHeXaGoN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/442787/nerf-for-ghoul-is-required
2. Cant agree with cooldowns, this will affect him very badly, change to Enrage itself will solve his issues. Like make enrage something he should earn? Like oni's ability? Oni can and possible will came back to the hook if someone rescue while he is in power, billy and blight can do this too to interrupt the survivior.
But as i see 3 dashes is a bit too much for him.
Enrage should be earnable to make him fair, not just im comming, press secondary power and you die. (No ma how and what you are did)
Ghoul with 2 dashes is easier to avoid, rather than 3.
Ghoul can make a mistake but shortly can erase it while Enraged.
His pallet vaults still a problem/
1. But camping is that you should prevent, if you face the "right" ghoul.
Im just ended in the situations like, i hooked someone, travel throgh map, dont see anybody, dude that was hooked was rescued after short period of time, i came back because i dont want to waste time to find someone else and: (THEY ARE HEALED RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE HOOK!) "O no you are camper because you didnt allowed us to heal! GKYS!" (Guys and girls! Ghoul have free injuries, he have great mobility, just when you just got saved, dont waste time RUN AWAY from the hook as far as you can!)
As a survivior same picture dudes just refuse to came with me after rescue :(3. Hitboxes, reducing time to make a grab with his indicator have its effect, sometimes i miss just because i cant react with 0,18 sec to hit the button. And just lose lose, or even if i hit and kagune just breaks off at corners, or obstacles. (AND ITS FINE THIS IS HOW THIS HAVE TO BE!) This change need more time for players to learn how to use its advantage.
(Yep still ghoul just got nerfed, but it didnt change anything. Devs dont have time to tweak him again, and i think its useless to write here something about him. Mb after or even in FNAF release we ll get his last nerfs…)
(This is my opinion you might disagree with it, its fine. For the record IM NOT a killer nether survivior main. I play both. For a long time.)
K:"Love the ghoul love his playstyle, he was changed but it affect only console players."
S:"Devs need more time, to tweak or rework him into something different. I hope his playstyle will be changed into something more fun than this."His pallet vaults still a problem/
Any reduction to the vault speed would be detrimental to the character. He needs to vault fast because his power is nonlethal. If you make him slower he's just a Legion that injures far more slowly and moves around the map more quickly.
Let's take Wesker for example.Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault in order to M1 you since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
It just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you.
There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead. There are fundamental reasons why Wesker's vault takes longer and Kaneki's is shorter.
If Kaneki's enraged vault was any slower there'd be no reason to use it most of the time. Just play Wesker instead. They don't want to make another Legion where the power is 99% useless in the loop itself. They don't want to make another C or B tier killer.
If you want to reduce Kaneki's vault speed, what are you willing to give him back in return? How would you compensate his kit? Because right now after his latest changes he's fine. We don't want another killer like Legion who is only able to use their power (you know, the fun part of playing Killer) outside of chase. They already took away Kaneki's ability to hugtech around walls from the PTB. They already nerfed his power's chase ability before he went to the Live servers. The compensation they made for removing the hugtech was speeding up his enraged vault.
The vault speed is not an issue. He needs to be enraged, and needs to have direct line of sight on you, and needs to be directly on the other side of a pallet or window. It has counterplay. You can loop in such a way to deny the vault by staying out of sight or just making you aren't directly opposite of him. People are complaining because of a failure to adapt - people are used to the Killer being directly opposite of them being a good thing. Which, again, is what Kaneki is meant to shake up. New character releases are meant to shake up the status quo of the game. As I said earlier, it takes time to learn which loops he can vault and eventually catch up to hit you at, and which he cannot. The only variables are whether or not either of you are hasted/hindered (and that's fine because those mechanics exist for that specific purpose anyway, to make the game less predictable.)
Keep in mind the vault also takes all of his power tokens, so you can chain the loop if there's another one close enough because he won't have cooldowns available to chase after you. If he Enrage vaults on you, at a small loop where he can M1 you, and there's no tile close by that you can run to before he catches up to you…well, he gets you. He's supposed to. There are other killers that are also deadly when you're out in the open.
It's either "he can vault and hit you" or "he can't vault and hit you".
The character feels perfectly fine now. I think it's fair for both sides and no further changes are needed.
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I agree it looks ridiculous now.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914211#Comment_3914211
I did not say 3 seconds, I'd be fine with 2.5 seconds and making it so he doesn't move just short of SURVIVOR RUNNING SPEED during the cancel animation.
Kagune Leap is his "only power" but it happens to do SEVERAL THINGS. You're accusing me of arguing in bad faith, but you are too by downplaying how versatile his "one power" is.
It gives him FREE HITS. It gives him insane map mobility. It lets him fast vault windows. And it's also one of the best chase powers currently in the game. It also stops the survivor in their tracks if used directly on them, which cancels all distance-making exhaustion perks, and it applies Deep Wounds so it also cancels Dead Hard and strips off anti-tunnel protections..
Vecna does not get free injuries with any of his powers. He does not have amazing map mobility. In fact, the only thing one of his powers does is tell him if any survivors are in a straight line from when he uses it and turn off their magic items which they get specifically to counter him.
Kagune Leap is way, waaaaay too good. It is actually the most blatantly and indefensibly overpowered thing I have seen be added to the game since original Circle of Healing. And it has just as many people trying to keep it from getting the nerf it deserves because they care more about easy wins than how miserable it makes their opponents.
It gives him FREE HITS. It gives him insane map mobility. It lets him fast vault windows. And it's also one of the best chase powers currently in the game. It also stops the survivor in their tracks if used directly on them, which cancels all distance-making exhaustion perks, and it applies Deep Wounds so it also cancels Dead Hard and strips off anti-tunnel protections..
There should be a million asterisks here.
Yes it's a free hit, that gives far more distance to the survivor than a regular hit because he crashes out afterwards. The tradeoff is also that he's an M1 killer afterwards.
Yes it lets him fast vault, but only when enraged and with line of sight to a survivor.
Yes it stops the survivors if used on them, for an incredibly brief moment, while also incurring a long fatigue UNLESS you grab with an enraged vault, which still gives survivors time to run.
I can go on but I'd rather not waste my time any further because your rhetoric is extremely unfair. You're neglecting to mention every asterisk because you're trying to present your argument in a way that doesn't actually exist. If Kaneki was exactly the way you describe, he'd have a 100% kill rate. I'm done interacting with you. You're disingenuous and insincere in your argument. The way you're misrepresenting the power is actually irritating me and I'd rather not interact with you further. Your rhetoric would make Trapper sound overpowered.
I agreed in the past that Kaneki needed changes. He received changes. They aren't perfect (I would have preferred it if they just nerfed his survivor grab range by two meters instead of the entire power range) but he landed in a perfectly fine spot. He doesn't need further changes, be it nerf or buff. He's legitimately in a great spot at the moment and BHVR made great changes.
I'll close with this: Let's not further nerf a mobility power that cannot down people, especially if it's in a way that disincentivizes you from using it in cool ways during a chase. If you raise the cancel fatigue, he is dead. He becomes a slightly better Legion. The enraged vault shouldn't be nerfed because you'd might as well play Wesker, as I explained earlier in this thread. It makes no sense from the perspectives of design and balance to nerf the enraged vault speed.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914101#Comment_3914101
It will not ruin the character if they nerf the cancel slightly.
Kagune Rush's cancel is very similar in nature to Vecna's Fly.
When Vecna cancels Fly, he moves at 2.3 m/s for 2.5 seconds. He can cut this down to 2.25 seconds with an entire addon devoted to it.
When Ghoul cancels Kagune Leap, he moves at 3.68 m/s for 2 seconds, except that he can cancel it mid-leap.
Survivor movement speed is 4.0 m/s.
The cancel is clearly overtuned. Survivors literally need to be constantly within 2 seconds of being able to drop a pallet or vault something or else they risk getting downed, because if Ghoul slides up next to you, you will never make it to anything.
I'm tired of the "but muh skillful play" - I actually don't care anymore. This killer gets the FREEST first hits in THE ENTIRE GAME and also has some of the best map mobility in the game. It's FINE for him to not also have an extremely potent chase power.
Vecna's flight is one of his four powers. Kaneki's leap is his ONLY power. As I said, it makes no sense from a balance perspective to force him to stare at you for 3 seconds when he outmaneuvers you. What is even the point of using the power intelligently in a chase to bodyblock a pallet or window if you make the fatigue so asinine that he cannot down you by the time you round the corner?
You're arguing in bad faith to ruin the character. The fatigue should not be touched because it would fundamentally undermine the killer's entire gameplay loop of outmaneuvering survivors and taking them down. You already have enough time to drop the pallet or vault the window if you get ahead of him. Your reasoning is unreasonable. He moves faster (which, by the way, still isn't as fast or faster than survivors) in order to try to block the path when he lands.
You're asking him to be Legion with more out-of-chase mobility. I'm sorry, I cannot ever understand your perspective.
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I'm down for all of these. Especially the 200% cap on regression so we don't get toxic playstyles.
I would prefer it if gens were more balanced at a baseline level so that we wouldn't need regression in the first place, but even with this type of balance design Call of Brine is just too weak. Regression should be strong enough that you'd use it opportunistically, without gen speeds being balanced around them. But right now, the issue I'm sensing is that gen regression perks are balanced around gen speeds being more fair, when that isn't the current reality.
With all that said, Call of Brine is honestly a joke. They overnerfed it certainly. Even if gen speeds were more balanced, the perk is still too weak in its current state.
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Some? You mean most. Almost all of them. It's actually annoying. I'm a proponent for making Haste and Hindered not stack anymore but the execution here is so lacking. Why change barely any perks?
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@Dadeordye said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913919#Comment_3913919
If you stay too close to the vault Kaneki and Wesker WILL hit you.
It's an intended feature.
Thing is this is bugged (not happens 100% of the time), but survs can't vault back against Kaneki because his hitbox is larger, which is not the case for Wesker. Sometimes the scumbags will vault back unpunished.
NOTE: scumbags because they know they should get slapped, but try their luck anyway because of the bug.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913911#Comment_3913911
No, but if they add it AND the possibility to cancel their power I would be completely fine with it since the cooldown is almost non-existent.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913960#Comment_3913960
Ok then. Makes sense.
BUT the cooldown before you can M1 needs to be increased.
OR keep it the way it is now, but make him keep sliding. That way he would have to use the cancel at the right moment so when he stop sliding he would be close to the surv. Cancel too late/too close to the surv and you'll past him/her and land in China.BUT the cooldown before you can M1 needs to be increased.
OR keep it the way it is now, but make him keep sliding. That way he would have to use the cancel at the right moment so when he stop sliding he would be close to the surv. Cancel too late/too close to the surv and you'll past him/her and land in China.
It already works this way. It doesn't need to be any higher. Any higher and you actually punish the killer for attempting to make cool, skillful plays with the power swinging around survivors. The cancel fatigue shouldn't be touched. The fact that the power goes on a forced artificial cooldown when you break a pallet is already enough of a concession. It's actually really good design because it rewards the survivor for outmaneuvering the Ghoul around a pallet and compelling him to break it. This is 100x better than increasing the fatigue.
It would legit ruin the character if you raised the fatigue.
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@Dadeordye said:
What we got today is a step towards the right direction, but a very small one.
The two broken things about Kaneki are:
1-The speed of his vault while enraged = it's too damn fast. You can't go around a small rock again before Kaneki catches up tp the survivor. This needs to either be reduced or reduce the duration of Enraged Mode (because it still keep activated through the entire match basically).
2-Being able to cancel the power while still doing a leap = let's just say that if Kaneki can keep this then you have to give Wesker and Blight this option too.Being able to cancel the power while still doing a leap = let's just say that if Kaneki can keep this then you have to give Wesker and Blight this option too.
I've voiced multiple times in the past that nerfing the cancel fatigue is a terrible idea because it would disincentivize the Ghoul from using the power in intelligent ways to outmaneuver survivors during a loop. It would really suck if Ghoul was forced to stare at you for 3 seconds after cancelling power (like Legion) so I'm really glad BHVR didn't go this route.
The cancel fatigue and the enraged vault are the two main things they shouldn't touch about the power.
His latest changelist is perfectly fine. The only issue is that they nerfed his movement range holistically instead of just nerfing the range in which you can pounce on survivors, which is the only aspect of the power that needed that two meter nerf, but aside from that the changes landed him in a perfect spot in my opinion.
I don't think he needs any further changes
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913837#Comment_3913837
Explain to me the meaningful difference between Blight rushing at you and hitting you, and Ghoul sliding up next to you and canceling power while moving at survivor running speed during the cancel animation.
I'll tell you what the difference is.
Blight doesn't get Scamper, he doesn't get free first hits, he doesn't negate anti-tunnel perks, he doesn't negate the strongest medkit items, he doesn't negate exhaustion perks, and Blighted Rush hits don't work with M1 perks. In exchange, the survivor gets 2> seconds to react.
Yeah I don't know if that drawback of Ghoul not being able to down with the power itself is really as big a deal as you think it is.
Honestly I'm genuinely starting to think Blight is worse than Ghoul. Blight is stronger as a killer, but the fact Ghoul can freely use so many perks that Blight can't which all trigger off M1s, plus the fact Blight has to respect Dead Hard and Off The Record while Ghoul doesn't, might actually give Ghoul the edge.
Not to mention Ghoul is 10x easier to play.
I believe his vaulting speed is fine and shouldn't be changed.
Let's take Wesker for example.
Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault in order to M1 you since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
As I said, it just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you.
There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead. There are fundamental reasons why Wesker's vault takes longer and Kaneki's is shorter.
If Kaneki's enraged vault was any slower there'd be no reason to use it most of the time. Just play Wesker instead. They don't want to make another Legion where the power is 99% useless in the loop itself. They don't want to make another C or B tier killer.
The character feels perfectly fine now. I think it's fair for both sides and no further changes are needed.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913703#Comment_3913703
You're misrepresenting how effective, counterplay against his enraged vault is.
You say that it only grants a free M1 at SOME loops. It's not some, it's most.
You make it sound like as long as survivors are smart, and choose their loops carefully, they can counter his vault and deny the free hit. As though survivors can choose where to loop a killer that can cross most of the map in seconds. Survivors have to make do with whatever is nearby. There's no luxury of choice.
Let's be honest, just like Xeno's tail recovery at launch, and Chucky's OG scamper, the vault is a crutch to brute force hits without exercising skill. It requires no technical execution to pull off, and it completely invalidates a massive amount of loops. I'm not shocked that you would want to hold onto that.
Keep in mind the vault also takes all of his power tokens, so you can chain the loop if there's another one close enough because he won't have cooldowns available to chase after you. If he Enrage vaults on you, at a small loop where he can M1 you, and there's no tile close by that you can run to before he catches up to you…well, he gets you. He's supposed to. There are other killers that are also deadly when you're out in the open.
Also, comparing his vault to Scamper is incredibly disingenuous. First he has to be enraged, then he has to have line of sight to you to latch onto you, and THEN he has to hope the loop is thin enough that he can eventually M1 you. Just figure out which loops he can and cannot hit you when he vaults. It's extremely binary unless you're Hindered or unless he's Hasted, but those variables exist to shake up the game in the first place, so that it's not so trite and "solved" even after you figure out how to play against his vault.
It's either "he can vault and hit you" or "he can't vault and hit you". (Again, not counting haste/hindered effects since they're supposed to spice up the predictable flow of the game anyway.) It takes time to learn which tiles you should be running him at when he's enraged and which ones you should be avoiding.
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It would be so cool if you could use his power at loops. At the moment he can´t attach to stuff close to his location which makes him ckunky, but more importantly doesn´t allow to use his power at loops. It would be sooo cool if you allowed him to do some crazy outplays at loops with his power.
He used to be able to use his power as a pseudo-anti-loop. It required skill.
It was on the PTB. He could hugtech around windows and pallets if there was something he could latch on to on the other side. You would latch on to it (a tree or something) and quickly look to the side, so that you don't vault the window/pallet. This would cause you to slide against the obstacles and arrive at the other side. You could easily counter Killer Shack by doing this from the outside and slide straight inside.
They removed this tech when they pushed him to the Live server. They strictly do not want the power to be used during loops in a conventional sense because they were afraid of it being overpowered because of the easy injure. If they were to keep the hugtech, Kaneki would have had to lose the injure and just be a pure mobility killer instead. Now he's something in between. His power is nonlethal, but can be used intelligently to cut off a survivor's path, while still having an easy injure. After the latest round of nerfs, the character overall feels perfectly fine. No further changes are needed, really.
The nerfs that I don´t like are his range nerfs, it makes attaching to stuff without getting the above mentioned cooldown and crosshair disappearing more annoying.
I agree that the dash range didn't need to be nerfed. That just seemed unnecessary (the power is already nonlethal and can only be used for mobility - why nerf the range?) The only range nerf that was needed was the range in which he can grab onto Survivors. Nerfing the range holistically was not necessary.
Everything else is fine. Character feels well balanced in my opinion.
I struggle a lot with knowing where the crosshair will pop up before activating his power. There should be an option to make his crosshair permanently visible and please not as addon.
It's the center of your screen. Just visualize the center of your screen. I don't want a crosshair permanently in the middle of my screen when I play this character. "Bro just make it a toggle" no, it's unnecessary and will use up dev time for little gain. It's the middle of your screen and it doesn't require that much precision.
I dont know how to describe the next point well. When using his power and failing to aim at somethging or being too close to something, makes your Crosshair disappear and puts it on a short cooldown. This is very frustrating and annoying. Please remove that.
I wouldn't be against this. But the reason why it's currently implemented is because they want you to think carefully about where you want to dash. That's just how they wanted to design the gameplay experience as The Ghoul. They don't want you to spam clicks. If they don't change this, in the meantime you can just adopt a more methodical playstyle when using the power.
People are now complaining about the enraged vault.
Let's get into that. I believe his vaulting speed is fine and shouldn't be changed.
Let's take Wesker for example.
Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault in order to M1 you since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
As I said, it just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you.
There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead. There are fundamental reasons why Wesker's vault takes longer and Kaneki's is shorter.
The character feels perfectly fine now. I think it's fair for both sides and no further changes are needed.