Leon_Loves_Cheryl
Leon_Loves_Cheryl
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Let's wait. Personally I'm confident that not being able to stack haste or hinder will eventually lead to a healthier game with more enjoyable perks overall.
While yes it does remove synergy, it does so with the intention (key word intention, it requires accurate execution) that the perks will be able to stand on their own merits, as haste builds for both Survivor and Killer were gimmicks at best. Removing gimmick synergy that doesn't help you win much in the first place, in order to create more enjoyable perks on their own merits is absolutely the right direction.
There is a fundamental difference from a design standpoint between perks synergizing and perks requiring each other to even have a viable function. I'm totally fine with "haste builds" not being a thing. I'm excited about making builds centered around a single strong haste perk as the keystone of the build.
I WANT there to be only one regression perk if they were all buffed heavily to compensate. This is a really good direction for the game. If you can't stack 4 haste perks or 4 slowdown perks, build diversity goes UP, not down. You have MORE options, and each feel powerful enough to be worth the slot assuming BHVR balances well. And I don't think it's fair to just blindly assume that they won't.
The issue with the current PTB is that not enough perks have been adjusted.
Let's wait until they acutally make proper changes, and let it settle before we consider rolling it back.
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Agreed
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I agree that nerfing the holistic range wasn't necessary. Just the range in which you can grab survivors needed that two meter reduction.
Aside from that, their changes are pretty good and, as a Kaneki main, I actually really enjoy that they took a more measured approach instead of the gutting that they have been unfortunately infamous for.
Power entering CD after kicking pallet.
This is fine. This is just a way to suppress his ability to chase you down as soon as you outmaneuver him at a loop with a pallet. It means your play actually has some impact as a survivor against Kaneki because he can't immediately chase you.
Slower power vault
Absolutely not.
His vaulting speed is fine and shouldn't be changed.
Let's take Wesker for example.
Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault **in order to M1 you** since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
As I said, it just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you.
There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead. There are fundamental reasons why Wesker's vault takes longer and Kaneki's is shorter.
The character feels perfectly fine now. I think it's fair for both sides and no further changes are needed.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913553#Comment_3913553
I agree that he should vault faster I just feel this is too fast. I don't think any killer should vault that fast, from trapper to nurse as it just creates unfun gameplay with little input from the survivor or killer the get hits. Dropping a pallet should always the survivor some distance, as they've chosen to consume a resource to do so. Having any killer or ability that completely negates that is, in my opinion, bad design.
And on the topic of enraged mode itself, even with the nerfs kaneki with likely have it most of the match and especially during chase considering it doesnt go down while their still deep wounded. I would 100% agree with your sentiment if enraged mode was something more on par with blood fury, which is itself a resource to be earned and managed. And while enraged mode isnt his default state or anything, on open (most) maps getting enraged will not be a major challenge despite the hitbox changes.
The only reliable way a team can deny enraged mode, and in my opinion the most effective kaneki counterplay, is to stealth around enough that he cant find you to begin with to get enraged (but the abundance of aura perks, escpecially on mobility killers like him challenges this).Anyway I've got to go now so if you choose to reply to me (thank you) I wont be able to reply back for ~1h, thank you for the discussion!
Dropping a pallet creates a wall, which only by extension may create distance. Killer powers that bypass this are not inherently broken. You can argue that Nurse inherently breaks the game, because she does, but even she has counterplay.
I think we should be willing to shakeup the game's core fundamentals with new character releases. Kaneki does it in a fair and balanced way in my opinion because dropping a pallet doesn't necessarily have to always and predictably be "I gain distance on you for sure no matter who you're playing or what you do" because that makes the game trite and dull.
And on the topic of enraged mode itself, even with the nerfs kaneki with likely have it most of the match and especially during chase considering it doesnt go down while their still deep wounded. I would 100% agree with your sentiment if enraged mode was something more on par with blood fury, which is itself a resource to be earned and managed. And while enraged mode isnt his default state or anything, on open (most) maps getting enraged will not be a major challenge despite the hitbox changes.
The only reliable way a team can deny enraged mode, and in my opinion the most effective kaneki counterplay, is to stealth around enough that he cant find you to begin with to get enraged (but the abundance of aura perks, escpecially on mobility killers like him challenges this).
You aren't supposed to be easily able to evade the first hit of his power. The reason why it's so dangerous is because it cannot down you, so it gives him a lot of effects. The vault is merely to help facilitate this in certain angles (because you need to be able to see them) on certain loops (because you won't land the M1 on all of them) and only when enraged (which is the core of his power.) His enraged mode has easy access because it's where most of the killer's design is and because it's nonlethal. Making it a finite resource won't solve as many problems as it will create. Lowering the duration already reduces the overall length of time that Kaneki is especially deadly during a trial while also forcing more non-lethal power hits to regain it.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913530#Comment_3913530
With wesker though, he is unlikely to M2 you at tighter filler loops which are often round and too short to set up a hit with. His vault largely serves as a counter to god pallets/vaults and has some niche use cases on loops like shack with mindgames. My point being that wesker is countered by tight loops, and his vault does not perform highly on them.
This is unlike kaneki, who is quite adept at longer loops and denies distance better than most killers in the game. he is countered, like wesker, by using weaker tight loops to effectively make him an m1 killer who has to play the tile normally. it isnt like he'd be weak at such loops even if he had no vault, because he could spend the time getting the pallet down, break it, then catch up a few seconds later for the hit if theres no nearby loop. Combine this gameplay with the enraged pallet vault and the survivor is placed with a lose-lose on many loops, where dropping the pallet basically results in a free hit a lot of the time. I say this as someone who was a wesker main before becoming a kaneki main.
Maybe they shouldnt touch the vault speed itself but the weird tech where you grapple to the survivor across the pallet to vault it, forcing them to stand still while you travel and hindering them after. I have seen clips where this tech results in the survivor getting hit in shack over god pallet after dropping it and going to the window. Im not sure how strong the vault is without this strategy because its basically the only way I vault but with it is certainly too powerful and is very reminiscent of old chucky who could do basicaly the same thing, even without using his power afterwards. I dont want the vault gutted or anything but it does need some slight changes.I definitely agree on the cancel fatigue. If they'd touched that I would have never played him again ;-;
Maybe they shouldnt touch the vault speed itself but the weird tech where you grapple to the survivor across the pallet to vault it, forcing them to stand still while you travel and hindering them after. I have seen clips where this tech results in the survivor getting hit in shack over god pallet after dropping it and going to the window. Im not sure how strong the vault is without this strategy because its basically the only way I vault but with it is certainly too powerful and is very reminiscent of old chucky who could do basicaly the same thing, even without using his power afterwards. I dont want the vault gutted or anything but it does need some slight changes.
I agree but only to a certain extent. Instead of hindering the survivor or freezing them, I would rather just have a faster vault so that you achieve the same exact result but without the strange or janky-feeling interactions. As I said, fundamentally, Wesker's vault is slower so that he can't just shrug and be like "okay, I can't M2 you so I'll just M1 you for free instead." Kaneki doesn't have the option of M2'ing to down you in the first place, so he has to vault faster. Plus it's only when he's enraged, and only when you're directly on the other side and in line of sight.
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^Yes exactly.
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@Roco45 said:
Nah the fatigue cancel also needs to be increased. Most of these maps have been gutted to have majority dead zones, save for a very few maps. It's incredibly cheap for him to dash across the map at you to take a health state and then dash cancel while you're surrounded by literally nothing since you made no distance.
It's a really bad idea to nerf his fatigue cancel in any way. He's pretty fair right now after the latest changes anyway.
The whole point of his ability and his skillcap is to dash intelligently to cut off your path, and give you a moment or two to try to get away before he hits you. If you make him take too long before he can hit you, even after playing correctly and performing a good dash, he's going to be piss weak. He's already an M1 killer.
His gameplay loop is to try to cut you off and then down you. It is not designed to "cut you off, stare at you for 3 seconds and let you get somewhere safe before he can hit you". That's not only unfair to him since he can't down you directly with his power anyway, it's also dumb to play against. You're asking for something dumb to play against. You're trying to push him away from using his power in funny ways while chasing you.
I really feel for BHVR here because the community often does not actually know what they're asking for. BHVR clearly seems to have the right ideas though, because they correctly did not touch the cancel fatigue and the enraged vault.
@caipt said:
I agree, the nerfs might actually make him more fun to play. I cant count the times the stupid autoaim has blocked my bodyblock plays. I disgree on the vault speed though, the pallet speed could definitely use some kind of nerf. After all short loops are meant to counter his power and the current enraged pallet vault is too fast to handle.
As I said, it just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you.
There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead. There are fundamental reasons why Wesker's vault takes longer and Kaneki's is shorter.
The character feels perfectly fine now. I think it's fair for both sides and no further changes are needed.
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@adam1233467 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913461#Comment_3913461
Yes, he has a system too, but it doesn't work, and even if you don't do that, he still doesn't have time to reach you if you go around the loop, kaneki you can't jump back, nor go around the loop, that's not fair, the only counter to that is double pallet of the cinema map, they need to increase the time of his vault.
As I said, it just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you. There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead.
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@adam1233467 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913454#Comment_3913454
You can jump back against wesker without him being able to hit you, I don't know if you knew that, kaneki has a system to prevent that, his vault has no counter and needs to be increased.
Wesker has an anti-pallet grief mechanic as well. The counter is to just…run. Just run the loop. You don't try to slide back through them. That's disrespecting their power. You're disrespecting the killer. The anti-pallet grief mechanic exists to make you run the loop.
Just…just run the loop. Don't sit there trying to vault through them.
But I do run away and he still catches me!
It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out. You will know which loops not to run against Kaneki when he manages to catch you with an enraged vault. In any case, he NEEDS a faster enraged vault than Wesker (which, again, requires him to be in rage mode and to have line of sight of you when he vaults) because Wesker's power can down you at the loop whereas Kaneki can only use it to catch up to you.
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@adam1233467 said:
I agree, his vault is basically the old chucky scamper, I still don't understand why they didn't increase the time already in this hotfix
Chucky has an M2 that could down you, while also having manual Scamper at the same time. That was obviously a broken combo.
Let's take Wesker for example. Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault **in order to M1 you** since he can't M2 you at loops. Wesker's vault is slower so he can't just braindead M1 you if you're outmaneuvering his M2 around a pallet. Kaneki's power cannot down you so he HAS to be able to vault faster (and he only vaults faster when enraged AND only when grabbing you with the power.)
It's fine
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Ghoul main here. The changes are fine. I can tell BHVR didn't want to gut another character and get backlash for it. This changelist was mostly well done.
I will say however that I don't feel like the dash range needed a nerf - just the range in which you can grab survivors needed that two meter reduction, not the power holistically - but otherwise it's honestly fine. It's a good changelist and the character still feels fun to play.
I also want to voice my appreciation for not touching the cancel fatigue. I've voiced multiple times in the past that nerfing the cancel fatigue is a terrible idea because it would disincentivize the Ghoul from using the power in intelligent ways to outmaneuver survivors
duringa loop. It would really suck if Ghoul was forced to stare at you for 3 seconds after cancelling power (like Legion) so I'm really glad BHVR didn't go this route.His vaulting speed is also fine and shouldn't be changed and I'm glad it wasn't. Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault **in order to M1 you** since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
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Ghoul main here. The changes are fine. I can tell BHVR didn't want to gut another character and get backlash for it. This changelist was mostly well done.
I will say however that I don't feel like the dash range needed a nerf - just the range in which you can grab survivors needed that two meter reduction, not the power holistically - but otherwise it's honestly fine. It's a good changelist and the character still feels fun to play.
I also want to voice my appreciation for not touching the cancel fatigue. I've voiced multiple times in the past that nerfing the cancel fatigue is a terrible idea because it would disincentivize the Ghoul from using the power in intelligent ways to outmaneuver survivors
duringa loop. It would really suck if Ghoul was forced to stare at you for 3 seconds after cancelling power (like Legion) so I'm really glad BHVR didn't go this route.His vaulting speed is also fine and shouldn't be changed and I'm glad it wasn't. Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault **in order to M1 you** since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
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Agreed.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3912083#Comment_3912083
Yes, there was a problem: "Haste perks can create a situation where the survivor is faster than the killer". And this change makes it a non problem. But it creates SO MANY more problems.
Situations where survivors are faster than the killer are an actual gameplay problem.
- First, this is infantilizing. I don't want the dev's to just forbid me to play some perks together. In essence this is what's happening.
This ruins the very concept of build diversity. I should have a haste build if I want. That's a while genre of build just gone.
It nerfs haste perks. All haste perks are now trash no matter how much they boost speed. IT'd have to be absurd amounts to have any kind of value. And from the changes we see, it's not. (how is Dark theory a 3%? It should be at least 8-10 to be any useful with those changes)
It attacks the concept of synergy, which is worrying. If they stop at haste okay, but I'm very worried they won't. Then we won't be allowed more than 1 regression perk, more than 1 gen repair perk, more than one exhaustion perk, more than one aura reading perk…
Those are not actual problems. Those are perceived issues, things that conflict with your beliefs of how the game should be designed. They exist in your head. They are completely different from a gameplay problem.
You're also leaving out the problems that don't affect you personally. Haste stacking created a lot of problems for the developers. 1. It's a balancing nightmare, making sure the haste perks that overlap don't become too strong. 2. It forces the developers to keep haste perks weaker. 3. It limits what new perks the developers can create.
Your statement "it creates SO MANY more problems" is not backed up by the information you've provided. You're putting your desires onto a pedestal claiming they're just as important as the game functioning. The game is designed around killers being faster than survivors, that's a part of the core gameplay and it's more important than desires like build diversity.
I'm not saying this is a good change or a bad change, just that you are attempting to force it to look bad with a faulty argument.
Edit: My apologies if this comes off as harsh. It's just kind of frustrating to be reading a post where it peaks my interest because the person says 'it creates more problems' and then the post doesn't deliver.
Very well said. I appreciate your understanding of the game.
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@Skillfulstone said:
It's concerning for the game as a whole to have such an approach to balance and this is beyond worrying for the future of perks in dbd.
Are they going to stop with haste or are they going to overall delete the very concept of perk synergy? Are we eventually going to only be allowed one Haste/Hinder perk, one gen regression/speed perk, one chase perk and one stealth perk? This would hurt build freedom a lot.
The kick limit already does a tiny bit of that since Eruption just can't be used with Surge if you don't want to accidentally hit the limit in record time and suddenly have a gen that you're basically forced to concede.
Even if they stopped there, it's still unhealthy, they're going to absolutely have to greatly buff these perks for those to be useful at all. By doing so Killers will essentially have easy access to large haste effects and while limited at one, it will still take only one perk slot. While Survivors will lose a whole niche kind of build, further reinforcing the "use only meta perks" trend and making the game more stale instead of having fun creating a "zooming" build that has like 3 different caveats to even work and requires at least 3 perks.
The fact that (presumably) perks wouldn't even stack with the various basekit Haste/Hinder that certain Killers have is even more limiting (I already hear Clown and Wraith crying in a corner, tons of add-ons invalidating perks and Wesker's infection officially being worthless with any Hinder perks) since that's an entire segment of a Killer's power that's made useless by a perk, why not play a stronger Killer and bring the same perk at that point? Killers shouldn't have part of their kit entirely invalidated by a category of perks, it's enough that some perks simply don't work together or can backfire.
A simple cap to Haste in order to avoid extreme situations where a Survivor can be faster than the Killer would be enough. And that would still allow buffs to Haste perks which are really weak (Dark Theory for example) and open the door to new perks without limiting perk options too much.
While yes it does remove synergy, it does so with the intention (key word intention, it requires accurate execution) that the perks will be able to stand on their own merits, as haste builds for both Survivor and Killer were gimmicks at best. Removing gimmick synergy that doesn't help you win much in the first place, in order to create more enjoyable perks on their own merits is absolutely the right direction.
There is a fundamental difference from a design standpoint between perks synergizing and perks requiring each other to even have a viable function. I'm totally fine with "haste builds" not being a thing. I'm excited about making builds centered around a single strong haste perk as the keystone of the build.
I WANT there to be only one regression perk if they were all buffed heavily to compensate. This is a really good direction for the game. If you can't stack 4 haste perks or 4 slowdown perks, build diversity goes UP, not down. You have MORE options, and each feel powerful enough to be worth the slot assuming BHVR balances well. And I don't think it's fair to just blindly assume that they won't.
The issue with the current PTB is that not enough perks have been adjusted.
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@Skillfulstone said:
It's concerning for the game as a whole to have such an approach to balance and this is beyond worrying for the future of perks in dbd.
Are they going to stop with haste or are they going to overall delete the very concept of perk synergy? Are we eventually going to only be allowed one Haste/Hinder perk, one gen regression/speed perk, one chase perk and one stealth perk? This would hurt build freedom a lot.
The kick limit already does a tiny bit of that since Eruption just can't be used with Surge if you don't want to accidentally hit the limit in record time and suddenly have a gen that you're basically forced to concede.
Even if they stopped there, it's still unhealthy, they're going to absolutely have to greatly buff these perks for those to be useful at all. By doing so Killers will essentially have easy access to large haste effects and while limited at one, it will still take only one perk slot. While Survivors will lose a whole niche kind of build, further reinforcing the "use only meta perks" trend and making the game more stale.
The fact that (presumably) perks wouldn't even stack with the various basekit Haste/Hinder that certain Killers have is even more limiting (I already hear Clown and Wraith crying in a corner, tons of add-ons invalidating perks and Wesker's infection officially being worthless with any Hinder perks) since that's an entire segment of a Killer's power that's made useless by a perk, why not play a stronger Killer and bring the same perk at that point? Killers shouldn't have part of their kit entirely invalidated by a category of perks, it's enough that some perks simply don't work together or can backfire.
A simple cap to Haste in order to avoid extreme situations where a Survivor can be faster than the Killer would be enough. And that would still allow buffs to Haste perks which are really weak (Dark Theory for example) and open the door to new perks without limiting perk options too much.
While yes it does remove synergy, it does so with the intention (key word intention, it requires accurate execution) that the perks will be able to stand on their own merits, as haste builds for both Survivor and Killer were gimmicks at best. Removing gimmick synergy that doesn't help you win much in the first place, in order to create more enjoyable perks on their own merits is absolutely the right direction.
There is a fundamental difference from a design standpoint between perks synergizing and perks requiring each other to even have a viable function. I'm totally fine with "haste builds" not being a thing. I'm excited about making builds centered around a single strong haste perk as the keystone of the build.
I WANT there to be only one regression perk if they were all buffed heavily to compensate. This is a really good direction for the game. If you can't stack 4 haste perks or 4 slowdown perks, build diversity goes UP, not down. You have MORE options, and each feel powerful enough to be worth the slot assuming BHVR balances well. And I don't think it's fair to just blindly assume that they won't.
The issue with the current PTB is that not enough perks have been adjusted.
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I actually agree with every single changenote you listed here. I hope most, if not all of these go through.
I would also go with a cooldown reduction on Forced Hesitation. The fact that it procs even when the survivor is alone and that the cooldown is 30 seconds just makes the perk way too inconsistent.
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@Xord said:
This change is horrible and this is a worrying approach of balance, we need to tell the devs this is the wrong direction.
Yes, there was a problem: "Haste perks can create a situation where the survivor is faster than the killer". And this change makes it a non problem. But it creates SO MANY more problems.- First, this is infantilizing. I don't want the dev's to just forbid me to play some perks together. In essence this is what's happening.
- This ruins the very concept of build diversity. I should have a haste build if I want. That's a while genre of build just gone.
- It nerfs haste perks. All haste perks are now trash no matter how much they boost speed. IT'd have to be absurd amounts to have any kind of value. And from the changes we see, it's not. (how is Dark theory a 3%? It should be at least 8-10 to be any useful with those changes)
- It attacks the concept of synergy, which is worrying. If they stop at haste okay, but I'm very worried they won't. Then we won't be allowed more than 1 regression perk, more than 1 gen repair perk, more than one exhaustion perk, more than one aura reading perk…
And it's an overcomplicated solution when all you could've done is have a hard cap. Let me stack those perks. Just not beyond a certain point.
Oh and killers stacking Haste was not even a problem since you already get less benefit from more haste as killer.First of all, Dark Theory at any higher than 3% is an utterly ridiculously overpowered idea. I'm not even going to argue further with you in that vein. 3% speed boost for survivors in an area is insanely powerful and it's exactly where I would have put it after removing haste stacking. Any more than that and it 100% becomes meta. You WILL see four of them every match.
Second, while yes it does remove synergy, it does so with the intention (key word intention, it requires accurate execution) that the perks will be able to stand on their own merits, as haste builds for both Survivor and Killer were gimmicks at best. Removing gimmick synergy that doesn't help you win much in the first place, in order to create more enjoyable perks on their own merits, is absolutely the right direction.
There is a fundamental difference from a design standpoint between perks synergizing and perks requiring each other to even have a viable function. I'm totally fine with "haste builds" not being a thing. I'm excited about making builds centered around a single strong haste perk as the keystone of the build.
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Here I suggest a longer cooldown after canceling power before the ghoul can attack again.
Nerfing the power cancel fatigue is the worst possible thing you can do.
What you're asking for here, is going to be the WORST POSSIBLE VERSION of this killer because you'd disincentivize using his power in interesting, skillful ways, basically shoehorning him into only using it when he's guaranteed to catch up on you, with zero risk-taking from the player's part. You're asking him to be weaker than Legion while simultaneously being more boring. They can't increase the downtime after his leap without just turning him into Diet Legion.
The whole point of his ability and his skillcap is to dash intelligently to cut off your path, and give you a moment or two to try to get away before he hits you. If you make him take too long before he can hit you, even after playing correctly and performing a good dash, he's going to be piss weak. He's already an M1 killer.
His gameplay loop is to try to cut you off and then down you. It is NOT designed to "cut you off, stare at you for 3 seconds and let you get somewhere safe before he can hit you". That's not only unfair to him since he can't down you directly with his power anyway, it's also dumb to play against. You're asking for something dumb to play against. You're trying to push him away from using his power in funny ways while chasing you.
Asking for this change belies a massive, fundamental misunderstanding of the game.
I also want to take this time to remind everyone that they already removed interesting plays from his power going from PTB to Live. For those unaware, you could actually hug tech with Kaneki on the PTB, sliding *against* obstacles and around to the other side. This allowed you to catch people off-guard very easily at Killer Shack for example. They already nerfed his power's lethality while looping. Trust me when I say you really don't actually want this killer to only ever use his power between loops just because you want him to stare at you for 3 seconds every time he cancels his power.
Unlike Blight and Wesker, all Kaneki can do to down you is mindgame you with a melee attack or outmaneuver you with his dashes. He cannot down you with his power so increasing the duration of his cancel fatigue will wreck the killer completely. What will he have to fall back on? His ability to injure? Legion does that better. ######### Legion.
This character is fundamentally not designed to stare at you for a year after cancelling power. They already removed his ability to hugtech shack and windows with his power. Wesker can dash into you and make you call him daddy, Blight can dash into you and inject you with meth, Kaneki has to ACTUALLY OUTMANEUVER you and block you from reaching important resources and he deserves to be rewarded for that. You can lower his movement speed while aiming the power so he has to think quickly, and you can lower the range in which he can target survivors with the pounce so he has to move more precisely, but you CANNOT touch the cancel fatigue duration or you will make the character extremely binary.
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@Archael said:
Game should be balanced around swfs.
Or had two modes.
All survs should have all info that swf have - where everyone is, where are killers belongings as long as at least one surv saw it, exact killer position as long as at least one surv see killer. Info about perks, who is going for unhook and others.
And then killer should be buffed accordingly.
And maybe second mode, where swf is unavailable, only soloq with almost no info whatsoever and nerfed killers.
Both of you are overcomplicating it.
Buff solo queue Survivor to the level of SWF by giving all survivors basekit info perks like Bond, Kindred, and Empathy.
Then, compensate with basekit Killer buffs like a mini-Pain Resonance on all hooks for example.
The game should be balanced around SWF instead of punishing people for playing with their friends.
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@imabakedpot8o said:
Brother, killer has been buffed for noobs. Killer is the easiest it's ever been. All of my favourite streamers have fallen out of love with this game because of it.
Everyone says Killer is boring because it's too easy, and Survivor is pointless because it's a waste of time, and you're just going to load into a match, one person gets tunnelled out at 5 gens, and the story repeats itself.
Most Killers get haste for simply existing. To ask for more buffs when killer is already this easy is crazy to me idk
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910409#Comment_3910409
Did you miss the part where I said that killer should be buffed in compensation for solo survivor being buffed to SWF's level? Or did you see the words "killer buff" and tunnel on that alone?
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910457#Comment_3910457
i may be too dumb or bad at the game but I still don’t see how your first comment makes any kind of sense for a soloq surv and how I can get to your mentioned kind of mastery?
Give survivors basekit perks that SWF wouldn't greatly benefit from.… isnt showing penti totems exactly that? SWF don’t have a benefit as they can already Tell eachother where the totems are (lets stop pretending that its actually hard for survs to rememmber the totem places especially in case of coordinated swf) while Soloq survs get closer to this Level (and still not completely handed the Info for free - you still need to be near the totem)
You completely misinterpreted my post, so maybe it's the first one. Probably both? Anyway, yes, showing aura on totems is part of buffing solo while leaving SWF mostly power-neutral.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910409#Comment_3910409
can you explain to me how I am gonna keep mental track of the totems my solo q survs cleanse? How am i gonna improve here and how is this not an example of soloq vs SWF difference?
On one hand, I am a massive proponent of buffing solo queue to the level of SWF while simultaneously buffing Killer to compensate.
On the other hand, totems showing their aura without massive caveats (like Survivors needing to use a perk to reveal the totem's aura) significantly detracts from the game's skillcap for survivors. That may not be an issue, though, if BHVR's intention is for solo survivor to be a chill, casual experience where you don't necessarily need to mentally keep track of things. Less strategy, more chill.
If that's the direction they want to go for, then I argue that they shouldn't beat around the bush and just go straight into it. Give survivors basekit perks that SWF wouldn't greatly benefit from. Then, buff Killer to compensate.
Regardless, Pentimento is unique in the way that you can have multiple of them, so if you lose one of them, it's not necessarily a huge deal (unless it was your only Penti totem, then it's completely gone.) This means that it's less far-fetched for it to show its aura, especially to ease the experience for Solo survivors, but at the same time hexes aren't really good or fun in the first place so an argument can be made against Penti showing its aura at all.
It's obviously a heavily nuanced issue. My point is this: If they want to make it easier for solo survivors, they should go all the way and buff Killer to compensate, so that SWF isn't inherently breaking the game anymore.
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I agree that it's not exactly a bright idea to balance the game around people who don't know how to play it. Example: Showing Penti's aura so that you don't need to mentally keep track of the totems you cleanse (which is an element of mastery that you can continually improve on) reduces the game's skillcap in an unhealthy way.
And that's just one example.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
Sure, as long as generator repair speeds also can't be stacked.
It depends. Survivor progression perks are, on average, weaker than Killer gen regression perks. But if Killer was limited to one or two gen regression perks, each one could be buffed to be individually far more powerful. Like we can have Pop go back to 25% TOTAL regression instead of 20% current. We can have Pain Resonance back to 25% WITHOUT a 4-hook limit.
Slowdown perks are balanced around each other. So are haste perks. Solve the haste problem, see how it pans out, then approach the weakness of individual regression perks later.
This is a good direction.
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@XtremeDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3904409#Comment_3904409
Well people are still learning, he actually is capable of catching up to already marked survivors. You just swing to them and instantly end your power mid leap, then you maintain some more speed and get your attack back faster. Hes pretty nuts rn, thats why si many people have been saying hes better than Nurse
Whoa whoa whoa.
Hold on.
Nerfing the power cancel fatigue is the worst possible thing you can do.
What you're asking for here, is going to be the WORST POSSIBLE VERSION of this killer because you'd disincentivize using his power in interesting, skillful ways, basically shoehorning him into only using it when he's guaranteed to catch up on you, with zero risk-taking from the player's part. You're asking him to be weaker than Legion while simultaneously being more boring. They can't increase the downtime after his leap without just turning him into Diet Legion.
The whole point of his ability and his skillcap is to dash intelligently to cut off your path, and give you a moment or two to try to get away before he hits you. If you make him take too long before he can hit you, even after playing correctly and performing a good dash, he's going to be piss weak. He's already an M1 killer.
His gameplay loop is to try to cut you off and then down you. It is NOT designed to "cut you off, stare at you for 3 seconds and let you get somewhere safe before he can hit you". That's not only unfair to him since he can't down you directly with his power anyway, it's also dumb to play against. You're asking for something dumb to play against. You're trying to push him away from using his power in funny ways while chasing you.
Asking for this change belies a massive, fundamental misunderstanding of the game.
I also want to take this time to remind everyone that they already removed interesting plays from his power going from PTB to Live. For those unaware, you could actually hug tech with Kaneki on the PTB, sliding *against* obstacles and around to the other side. This allowed you to catch people off-guard very easily at Killer Shack for example. They already nerfed his power's lethality while looping. Trust me when I say you really don't actually want this killer to only ever use his power between loops just because you want him to stare at you for 3 seconds every time he cancels his power.
The cancel cooldown is at a perfectly fine duration as-is.
I think he'd be more fair to play against if you made him move slower while aiming the power (not while dashing), reduce the range of his power injury (but NOT the range of objects he can grapple to) and reduce the survivor clickbox (simultaneously a buff and nerf.)
If those changes were implemented, his hits will make more visual sense, he has to maneuver closer to you to get the first hit (so you just existing on his screen won't immediately get you hit) and he is incentivized to use his power in skillful ways because he's less likely to accidentally latch on to survivors.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
So, 2 problems with this:
What numbers would you give Dark Theory and Batteries Included?
2% and 5%, even upping that to 3% and 6% is going to make those perks far too weak to use except on small maps, and as other haste effects would literally override them in a heartbeat
But, 4%+ on Dark Theory and 7%+ on Batteries included is problematic on multi-level maps like Midwich, Game and Hawkins. But still FAR too weak to be used on bigger maps as the sole source of the haste effect.
There is no way of balancing all haste and hindrance effects, especially since most of them were designed in a way that supplements other haste effects.
As an example, Clown would literally be unable to reliably use haste perks at all, since his bottle gives 10% haste, overriding all other haste effects, it is an entire section of perks that now cant be used, and its quite a large section. You'd just be risking giving survivors a haste boost instead.Dark Theory is a teamwide effect. 3% sounds like a perfectly good deal to me.
7% wouldn't be problematic on Batteries. You have to give up a generator for it to even work in the first place, and then you have to take a chase in an area that doesn't strategically make sense.
There is no way of balancing all haste and hindrance effects,
Yes there is. It's just numbers. When you remove variables, numbers become easier to manage.
especially since most of them were designed in a way that supplements other haste effects.
That's why they are being changed to be balanced based on their individual merit rather than be supplemental.
As an example, Clown would literally be unable to reliably use haste perks at all, since his bottle gives 10% haste, overriding all other haste effects, it is an entire section of perks that now cant be used, and its quite a large section. You'd just be risking giving survivors a haste boost instead.
I imagine they will make exceptions for certain killers, events, and mechanics otherwise yes, it wouldn't make any sense; I agree.
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@Xord said:
If removing the concept of build synergy is a good direction, might as well take the full step and remove perks entirely and instead give buffs to both survivors and killers?
Synergy does not merely equal stacking. Removing the ability for things to interact with each other in a way that makes them harder to balance isn't just "removing synergy", it's to make the game easier to balance holistically. A lot of haste and hinder perks are garbage because they're balanced around being abused. Remove the abuse and the game becomes healthier and more perks become viable.
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@Almo said:
Abandon match is a hack to avoid the difficulty of designing proper solutions to these issues.
While I do agree with this statement, in lieu of those solutions actually being implemented, we need something. The game went on for far too many years without moris being a part of the game unless the killer used an offering for them. It's not right.
I'd rather have this for now and then the tough-to-design solution later. We don't know what BHVR is doing behind closed doors, but this is the best way to 1. Allow moris to be a high moment of the game and 2. Alleviate frustration surrounding the setup of that situation.
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@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909754#Comment_3909754
Which didnt work because they still bleedout slug
"Prevents Killers from REQUIRING to bleedout slug"
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They aren't nerfing Haste and Hindered, they're removing stacking so that individual perks can be stronger.
It's overall better for the game if they balance the perks correctly.
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Now that "Abandon match" is a thing, this is no longer an issue. We should be allowed to watch the cool animation at the end of the game.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908526#Comment_3908526
I destroy him at T and L walls. Its his biggest weakness. Shacks pretty easy to wreck him at too honestly. The first option in the best. I dont mind the first hit tbh. Resilience kicks into gear with my made for this. However his hitbox needs to be fixed.
Agreed. I feel like a lot of the feedback is marred and warped by the average player's frustration over the way his pounce functions on a technical level. It's especially frustrating playing as him and trying not to pounce onto the person you're chasing.
The killer is pretty well balanced, it's just the pounce hitbox that needs fixing for both sides. He's not hard to beat, he's just really good, which is the way all killers should be ideally, so I'm glad that they're going light on their initial changes.
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@MrRetsej said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908961#Comment_3908961
I'm a killer main, hell I was a Skull Merchant main, and even I think he needs nerfing. There is zero skill involved in his first hit. The stun-on-grab neuters a survivor's ability to counterplay and removes agency of both players. He absolutely requires changes.
You may not like to hear this, but this isn't a "survivors whining" issue. This is a game health issue that needs to be addressed post haste.There doesn't necessarily need to be skill involved in getting the first hit. The skill requirement of the killer is in downing you, because his power can't do it. It's a similar concept to Legion. Legion has a very easy first hit, but the tradeoff is that he has to M1 you. Same with Kaneki, except what makes Kaneki interesting to play as and against is his ability to use his mobility to curve and swing to catch survivors off guard during their path.
Kaneki and Legion have meaningful tradeoffs for an easy first hit. It's core to their design, and complaining about it belies your misunderstanding of the way killers are balanced and designed.
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Do not touch his cancel fatigue. It's extremely important that it remains the way it is for the killer to be fun for both sides. They can adjust his hitboxes and visual clarity, but nerfing the cancel is a terrible idea
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The idea is good, but the execution is awful. They're way too fast, when normal generators are already too fast, with the added fact that perks cannot slow them down.
Ridiculous.
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Unironically asking to slow down the base speed of an M1 killer is insane. He can't down you with his power, he can only outmaneuver you with it.
You shouldn't touch his cancel fatigue either. You can lower his movespeed during the duration, but do not increase the duration of his cancel fatigue. This disincentivizes using the power in interesting ways during a loop itself to try to cut off your path, and pushes him towards only using it for map mobility. The ENTIRE killer is in the fatigue duration. It should not be increased.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Idk, I don't think a killer that gets injuries so easily AND has insane mobility/one of the best macro abilities in the game between mobility and ability to force deep wound should be as good as canceling his power to m1 as Ghoul currently is. Unlike Legion, this often allows this killer to easily punish survivors who try to survive injured. The power SHOULD be useful for catching up to survivors, that's fine. But I feel like the current state of the cancel cooldown doesn't give enough opportunity for the survivor to get away if there isn't any kind of connecting tile close by. At the very least I feel like Hinami's Umbrella needs a change and even then I'm not sure that's enough. The enraged pallet vault also needs to be looked at.
the current state of the cancel cooldown doesn't give enough opportunity for the survivor to get away if there isn't any kind of connecting tile close by
Yes, that's the point. This is what the Ghoul is meant to punish and he does it just fine. It doesn't need changes. Like I said, you risk ruining the character's gameplay from both sides if you increase the cancel recovery.
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@terumisan said:
wait why do you not want him locking on to people with endurance effects? that only helps them since his power resets he goes into an animation and can't attack while giving the survivor a speed boost. i accidentally attack and get bodyblocked when i aim my bite at the healthy survivor and then usually the healthy survivor bodyblocks me anyway giving more time for the unhooked survivor to get away
It's as I said. It's so he can't tunnel people off the hook as effectively
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DO NOT TOUCH HIS CANCEL COOLDOWN. This will destroy his skillcap immensely and make him boring to play as AND against.
What you're asking for here, is going to be the WORST POSSIBLE VERSION of this killer because you'd disincentivize using his power in interesting, skillful ways, basically shoehorning him into only using it when he's guaranteed to catch up on you, with zero risk-taking from the player's part. You're asking him to be weaker than Legion while simultaneously being more boring. They can't increase the downtime after his leap without just turning him into Diet Legion.
The whole point of his ability and his skillcap is to dash intelligently to cut off your path, and give you a moment or two to try to get away before he hits you. If you make him take too long before he can hit you, even after playing correctly and performing a good dash, he's going to be piss weak. He's already an M1 killer.
His gameplay loop is to try to cut you off and then down you. It is NOT designed to "cut you off, stare at you for 3 seconds and let you get somewhere safe before he can hit you". That's not only unfair to him since he can't down you directly with his power anyway, it's also dumb to play against. You're asking for something dumb to play against.
If you make him take too long before he can M1 you, he's going to be worse than Legion because his ability to injure a whole team is significantly slower, while also denying him the ability to effectively bodyblock windows and pallets. He's not designed to stare at you for 3 seconds while you try to shuffle around his body. His power cooldown is designed to give you enough time to drop a pallet on him or vault, otherwise you die if he blocks it OR if you're out in the open. His power is NOT designed to stare at you lovingly while you beat your face against him trying to reach the window behind him.
You could nerf the range in which he can get his initial injure, or make him walk slower when his power is out, but DO NOT TOUCH HIS CANCEL FATIGUE. You don't actually know what you're asking for. You are going to be even more frustrated against him while simultaneously ruining what makes him fun to play.
Here's a changelist that I think is healthy for both sides:
- Survivor power clickbox reduced (buff to high skill Kaneki players so they can swing around corners and bodyblock instead of accidentally pouncing on survivors, while nerfing low skill Kaneki players and controller players)
- Slightly reduce movement speed while aiming power
- Prevent the power from locking in to people with an Endurance status effect. This means you cannot pounce onto someone who was recently unhooked, but you can still use it to pre-counter things like Styptics and Dead Hard. You can also use it to bait Dead Hard (since the power will only be unable to lock onto someone for the 0.5 second duration that the Endurance effect lasts during Dead Hard.) This change will tune down Kaneki's ability to tunnel.
Done. That's it. That's all he needs. I deliberately excluded any changes regarding how his initial hit injures people "through walls" because that's not what's actually happening from a technical standpoint (he's latching on to you BEFORE you reach a corner. Reducing the clickbox will already solve a lot of the issues here so no further changes are needed regarding the visual mismatch)
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@lettuchia said:
Kaneki deserves "nuking," he's super strong and super easy, just like chucky did, and they never tried to nuke xeno the ptb was a buff
Not a single, single thing you said here is true
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@TragicSolitude said:
If BHVR messes with him, I hope they do it carefully. Without a large hitbox/auto aim, he'll be useless on console. PC survivors move faster than a console killer's camera plus there's lag between hitting the trigger and him actually responding (input lag, analog stick sensitivity, and fps all come into play here), so if it's not very forgiving, he won't be able to get hits with his power.
Since the Ghoul can't down with his power, only stun or injure, that seems like a compromise to keep his power usable on console without being OP on PC.
Maybe if BHVR made it so console players only cross-played with other console players, this wouldn't be so much of an issue. But it is.
Edit: Why the downvotes? I see so many PC players complain about how awful console players are and how they don't want to play with them. And from what I know the majority of console players recognize our mechanical limitations and do not want to play with PC players. PC-only and console-only cross-play should be widely desired by most of the playerbase. Everything else I said is a result of BHVR not giving us that, and also not programming console controls separately from PC controls. If PC is truly the dominant platform, all of you should disable cross-play so it's only console left in cross-play. Survivors can't move as fast on console, making the mechanical problems of killer slightly less frustrating. Not great, but slightly less frustrating.
May be a controversial take, but I think it's fine for there to be characters that play slightly differently, or more or less optimally, depending on the platform or control system you use on them. I think if skillful Kaneki players have more of an ability to avoid the Survivor hitbox to sling around them, and low skill Kaneki players don't have to crutch on the wide hitbox for the initial hit, the end result is a healthier game overall.
Just again, do not touch the fatigue
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I'm fine with nerfing his aim assist (this will also be nice as a buff because I'll finally be able to swing around corners instead of accidentally pouncing on survivors)
But DO NOT touch his recovery after cancelling the power.
I repeat, DO NOT touch his cancel fatigue.
The reason why, is because increasing his fatigue after cancelling his power *would destroy the killer.* What you're asking for here, is going to be the WORST POSSIBLE VERSION of this killer because you'd disincentivize using his power in interesting, skillful ways, basically shoehorning him into only using it when he's guaranteed to catch up on you, with zero risk-taking from the player's part. You're asking him to be weaker than Legion while simultaneously being more boring. They can't increase the downtime after his leap without just turning him into Diet Legion.
The whole point of his ability and his skillcap is to dash intelligently to cut off your path, and give you a moment or two to try to get away before he hits you. If you make him take too long before he can hit you, even after playing correctly and performing a good dash, he's going to be piss weak. He's already an M1 killer.
His gameplay loop is to try to cut you off and then down you. It is NOT designed to "cut you off, stare at you for 3 seconds and let you get somewhere safe before he can hit you". That's not only unfair to him since he can't down you directly with his power anyway, it's also dumb to play against. You're asking for something dumb to play against.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
Honestly I'm okay with the hits at close range, but the long long range he can confirm hits is probably the main complaint I have, and the hitting through elevations jankly (but I'm sure they said they cant fix this)
Maybe the issue is with deep wounds still being too long as it'd be nice to find a balance between being able to heal and being pressured from healing?
The other issue is with how hooks and maps are designed too, particularly Borgo and the Corn maps where there isn't much, I feel they need brought closer to the new eyerie killer shack only map.
I think it's great people enjoy them, I also think it's wonderful they are accessible to play. They will probably recieve some tweaks to the sliding/scampering/1st hit jank I imagine from my time playing against them.
I don't think they are A-Tier currently, I think they will end up A-Tier tho post fixes, even the likes of Otz etc thinks they are really strong rn. I would say however they do suffer in the likes of RPD I've experienced.
Have you played much against them @Leon_Loves_Cheryl? How do you deal with them?- Try to predict him. Is he going to cut you off with his leap or is he trying to catch up behind you?
2. He's an M1 killer. He cannot down you with his power. He can injure you with it, but he's even less efficient at it than Legion. Yes, Legion, while simultaneously sharing their inherent weakness against being ran around loops (no way to hit through or over them.)
3. His power is only nichely usable when looping, so position yourself safely (be near buildings or tiles that reliably waste time for the Killer.)
4. If for whatever reason you cannot reliably position yourself properly, Kaneki doesn't typically use Exhaustion perks which means perks such as Lithe and Sprint Burst will help you connect safe tiles (or reach them in the first place) efficiently. But it's also not that simple because he can counter your Exhaustion perk by grabbing onto you if he's smart, so you have to make sure his power is on cooldown (or at least make sure he's out of sight) before you try to reach another tile/loop.
It's clearly a very interesting killer to play on both sides, and counterplay certainly exists. Most of the things you're able to do against Legion or Pig will work just as well against him. The irony is that Pig actually gets downs more consistently than Kaneki using their powers, since she actually has a lethal dash and he does not. Should we nerf Pig?
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The default mode IS already ranked. MMR = rank. DBD doesn't have unranked modes outside of event modes.
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@Blueberry said:
He’s kinda of what Legion should have been. Way too early to call for nerfs. Impression so far is high A tier, which imo is what most killers should be brought up to.
Agreed completely. Not as ridiculously oppressive as S tier characters but not a pushover. Very interesting way to make an M1 killer actually threatening. It's a good design. 100% agreed on the A-tier classification
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903476#Comment_3903476
I don't want trolls to get notifications when I post. Really a shame they keep assuming they're being attacked and are getting super defensive for using WoO, use whatever perks you need.
I think the Legion changes were much needed, but I think Ghoulie is a bit too strong and may need a nerf.
I think Ghoul's balanced just fine personally. They have to use their power intelligently to cut you off and M1 you. They can't kill you any other way. You can't nerf him in a way that's fair. You can't increase his fatigue after he cancels his power because that disincentivizes the coolest ways to play with (and against) him, which is attempting to cut off pathing and pallets/windows. Sure, if you're out in the open he can kill you easily, but the same applies to many other killers (Wesker, Billy, etc.)
He's fine.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3904814#Comment_3904814
The killer is latched onto the survivor with their tentacles. So it wouldn't look as weird if the killer vacuums the survivor back a bit, to make the hit look better. Because if those "behind walls" hit are actually legit, and should stay in the game, then they should look better on the killer and survivor screens.
Or maybe the killer should just be animated better to make the hits look better… For example, if the grab attack should connect, then just have the killer leap around the wall (like a Spider-Man swing), and always land right behind the survivor.
Whatever it takes.
I'm merely stating that it's not a balance issue, it's a visual issue
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I think all he really needs is improvements to the more questionable hits (like going through walls etc). Apart from that he's totally fine.
This cannot happen. It's a concession that had to be made for technical reasons. Refer to my comment above.
Basically, due to travel time mechanics, changing the nature of the hit will either severely nerf the character (which he does not deserve) or just look even weirder from both ends.
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<mispost, please remove>