Defnotmeghead
Defnotmeghead
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004002#Comment_4004002
almost everything you said isnt 2nd chance. bloodlust for example isnt 2nd chance, it stops god loops which are impossible to catch survivors at.
killer powers being used over and over? really? thats like saying a survivor can be chased off a gen but they can always go back on it after they lose the killer.
like i said, almost all of what you said are not 2nd chances at all and not even remotely comparable. bare in mind the killer is 1 person and has no team. 2nd chances are things that enable the person to lose the match and then get a 2nd chance to win. in the instance of survivors…. the hatch. they can fail at their objective (gens) and still escape through hatch. they fail at finding the hatch first, they can still win by using a key.
Thats why i said killer only really has noed as 2nd chance because that perk lets a killer lose the match with 0 hooks and all gens done but still pull off a 4k. At best, the egc disabling the anti camp for a hooked survivor might be considered 2nd chance to get 1k but thats still a loss for the killer. but when killer fails to kill before the survivors escape, there is no 2nd chance for the killer to pick up a kill. survivors can fail their objective multiple times and still win.
What people dont seem to realise, killer and survivor are very different. comparing killer and survivor is like saying "killer can eliminate me, why cant i eliminate the killer?" answer is "because your survivor….not killer"
Based on your odd comparison, every swing a killer misses with their m1 attack is considered 2nd chance which simply isnt the case because they may have failed to land the hit but they havnt failed the match. Thats the key difference. just like hatch. survivors can all be hooked. at that point they lost the match, no one to help them unhook. but people want a way to comeback from that loss scenario. survivors all slugged, they lost, there is no way they can get themselves up but they want a way to heal themselves after losing the match which is crazy. They even had abandon option for such slugging cases, this is because the match is over, survivors lose, move on but abandon isnt good enough anymore, they want another way to win after losing.
DS isnt second chance, it stops giving killers free hooks when survivors have 0 agency in their unhook.
"2nd chances are things that enable the person to lose the match and then get a 2nd chance to win."
The killer can legit go from 0 hooks to 4 kills at any point in the game. You can legit lose the match as a killer, and still win.
You as a killer can fail at your objective by consistently losing, and then still win.
And hatch isnt second chance, hatch was added as a legitimate way of escape. DBD isnt exactly 1v4. It can be 1v(1v1). If its between myself and a teammate, I can decide to screw the teammate over for hatch. That is me actively causing a teammate to die, to get an escape.
On top of that, even if you get hatch, its not a win. MMR-wise, its a draw. Game-wise, 3 kills is still a loss for survivors. Not a win.
Again, killers can go from 0 hooks to 4 kills at any point in theory. I've had games where I could barely lay hands on anyone for 4 gens, and then suddenly got 3 of them downed and hooked in basement. I've never had games where I got 6 hooks early on and then ended up losing. Killer second chance is so cooked into the core of the game, that you dont even realize it.
And yes, bloodlust is second chance, there is not a single god loop in the game. And if you cannot catch that 1 survivor because they are actively outplaying you, then maybe go for a different survivor, instead of waiting for your second chance basekit to activate so you can unfairly catch a survivor who is actively outplaying you?
"but when killer fails to kill before the survivors escape, there is no 2nd chance for the killer to pick up a kill"
When a survivor unhooks, the killer can hit them and hooktrade. They get a second chance to have someone on the hook.
"At best, the egc disabling the anti camp for a hooked survivor might be considered 2nd chance to get 1k but thats still a loss for the killer"
So, anti-camp disable "might be" 2nd chance, but it doesnt matter because its still a loss for the killer. But hatch IS 2nd chance, despite it being a loss for survivors? Great bias dude.
"but people want a way to comeback from that loss scenario"
They actively removed the self-unhook action. And thats not even a second chance thing.
"survivors all slugged, they lost"
Why tho? They havent been hooked yet. You havent hooked them yet. When all 5 gens are gone, should you lose the ability to down? Gens are gone, you lost. -
@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001037#Comment_4001037
Then just hook the survivor.
Oh right, just hook survivor as Oni to always end my power, very effective…
If you came back after 20 seconds, you are going to find them within 20 meters of where you left them. Shack is 10 meters wide for reference. It's not that hard. You just walk around in the general area and listen for sound.
Which wastes my time even more, which is not really good when my slugging is under time limit.
All you need to do is fix full slugging, which 90 seconds to unlock unbreakable does more than enough, rest is simply overkill.
Slugging should be an option for the killer, it just shouldn't be primary tactic. Those changes made slugging kinda impossible in general.
It should definetly be trimmed unless you want to remove all situations where killer needs to slug, but good luck with that….
"Which wastes my time even more, which is not really good when my slugging is under time limit."
The time limit is 90 seconds. At worst, that means that by the time you down the last survivor, it's been 45 seconds since you slugged the first survivor, assuming you slug them the first instance of your power instantly.
You hook the survivor you downed most recently, they are there anyway, you hook the second one downed. That's 2 survivors hooked and now you have 2 slugged survivors who you cannot find. But you have legit another 30 seconds before the first survivor can pick themselves up, 35-40 seconds before the second can, so you look 25 seconds in a 50 meter radius where you slugged the 2nd survivor. That's 3 survivors hooked before the 1st survivor can pick themselves up.
What time is wasted? Even if survivors couldnt move, you would still have 3 survivors hooked and 1 picking themselves up.
90 seconds is a LONG time, its even a longer time if you can do nothing. Oni wont really get affected as much as you think. And while Oni definitely needs tweaks, all you need is Infectious Fright and you would get constant info on where survivors are anyway. -
@AtlasShark said:
The comment about The Twins was all I really needed to see to disregard this post. None of these changes should be considered until they can be reworked healthily so as to not invalidate a Killer (hence why they will be re-introduced in future PTBs). Sorry, but that's just not be an acceptable attitude towards balance.
The comment about Twins was added, because her rework has been in the works since january 2022. She is still on the rework list. She needs one anyway, regardless of what happens to slugging. And Slugging has needed an overhaul since 2020.
Its not an invalidation, its more that Twins has been invalidated already (again, its been 3 years, her rework was considered high priority), so what's another 3-4 months?
And at this point, no one cared about certain changes making survivor builds or perks absolutely useless. Do you realize how many things are actually invalidated? Flashlights alone are extremely invalidated. There was an addon rework for items, yet 65% of flashlight addons do the exact same thing that has had no use for YEARS: Increases brightness by X%. In fact, Odd Bulb has the downside of battery depletion because of the brightness being increased.
What does increasing the brightness do, you may ask? Well, back in 2017, brightness increased blindness speed. Since 2017, its only a cosmetic change. So the ONLY real thing the Odd Bulb does is Increasing Blindness Duration by 25%, at the cost of 14% depletion increase
You know what other addons increase blindness duration with NO downside?
Broken Bulb - 30%
High End Sapphire Lens - 15%
Intense Halogen - 20%
TIR Optic - 15%
Focus Lens - 10%
Power Bulb - 10%
Out of 14 flashlight addons, 50% of them increase blindness duration. And the most expensive addon is the worst one.
And then, it gets worse, because Lightborn was made from 80% blindness resistance, to blindness immunity. Invalidating the existance of an entire item.
All this to say, sometimes, some aspects of the game get screwed over for the objective long term health for the game. Keeping the 3 Twins mains happy doesnt matter if it means losing an entire playerbase instead. Slugging is unhealthy in its current state. Twins cannot exist without slugging in its current state. Twins is in need of a rework anyway regardless of slugging changes, so her aspect doesnt matter as a counter argument. She would only get better because of it -
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001087#Comment_4001087
such as? the only real 2nd chance the killer has is NOED.
Oh, my dude. Killers can literally win the game at any point in the game. Killers have basekit second chance:
1. cant mindgame or loop a tile properly? Dont worry, that pesky window will get blocked if you fail your mindgame 3 times.
2. dont know when to break a pallet? No worries, after 15 seconds of chase with no hits or ability usage you get a 5% speedboost, and after another 15 seconds, we'll double it to 10%
3. You miss your ability? No worries, you can try again over and over and over again.
4. Survivors hiding for a bit so they can wait out a slug and survive? No worries, you will get a notification where they are exactly. You afk facecamping the survivor? No worries, you will never be shown to the survivors.
5. Generators regressing is technically second chance, it wasnt originally in the game.
6. The fact that perks like DS and OTR get disabled after gens are gone is 2nd chance. You dont see No Way Out disabled once hatch is closed, despite it literally doing the exact same thing for killers as DS does for survivors?
7. The fact that 2 survivors on 1 gen dont finish it in 45 seconds, but 54 seconds is also in the realm of 2nd chances.
I could go on. Slugging is 2nd chance. Tunnelling can be argued to be 2nd chance if you consider basekit bt to also be 2nd chance. There are protective measures against certain behaviours. You call that 2nd chance for survivors, yet "balance" for killers. -
@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001036#Comment_4001036
Your opinion is not the truth and mine is not a lie. From when I startet playing (2016) until I quit (2021). I followed all the devs streams, major youtuber and read all the patch notes. Killer got 1 step forward and 2 steps back EVERY patch for years. I came back because a friend told me it got better, but most of the core issues are still there. The killer shortage had been denied, but survivor shortage is all of a sudden an important topic. Double standards anybody?
"Killer got 1 step forward and 2 steps back EVERY patch for years."
I mean, some of those steps were gigantic leaps, while the steps back were tweaks to not break it. As an example: basekit addons always came with the original addon being nerfed a similar amount (but the total effect would still be stronger). It's RARE for any killer to actually have been made weaker. Its mostly been "we up their basekit, and tweak their addons accordingly". The biggest offenders in changes back then, was certain killers being blatantly ignored. But no killer got nerfed because survivors complained. Killers got nerfed primarily because of statistics up untill 2020, then based on comments surrounding the killer. Its why Pig recieved so many nerfs. Because despite her lack of lethality against players who understood her power, she simply had the highest average killrate due to headpops. She was statistically the strongest killer in the game.
However, once again, it was RARE that killers actually gained 1 step forward and 2 steps back. But lets assume that was true, lets assume that was fact. Survivors recieved a nerf every single month for YEARS and then had the mechanic be ignored. Killers recieve about 2 perks per year on average that either shake up the meta, creates a solid niche or finally makes a certain killer quite useful.
Survivors recieve barely 1 perk every 2 years on average like that. And the few times it does have a significant impact in meta change, it gets nerfed. Boons were meant to shake up the meta forever, that someone was always willing to bring a boon. 7 nerfs later, barely anyone uses boons. People still use hexes quite often, but boons?
Just as a comparison, I will make a list, first pick is going to be the most recent perk added post-2020(aka, when statistic based changes were no longer the main reason why things got changed) to the meta I can find, then I go down the list for next most recent untill pickrate is less than 5%:
Survivors:
Finesse - 15.5% pickrate - July 16, 2024
Off The Record - 6.35% pickrate - March 10, 2020
The next would be Dramaturgy - 4.21% pickrate - July 25, 2023
Not even 3 perks released since 2020 have had a pickrate higher than 5%
Killers:
Pain Resonance - 30.5% pickrate - November 13, 2021
Lethal Pursuer - 15.7% pickrate - June 15, 2021
Dead Man Switch - 15.2% pickrate - March 10, 2020
Nowhere To Hide - 14.4% pickrate - November 22, 2022
Deadlock - 8.12% pickrate - September 7, 2021
Grim Embrace - 7.9% pickrate - November 30, 2021
Eruption - 7.4% pickrate - June 15, 2021
Friends 'Til the End - 5.58% pickrate - November 28, 2023
No Way Out - 5.14% pickrate - March 30, 2021
The next would be Hex: Plaything - 4.26% pickrate - September 7, 2021
With, generally speaking, 12 perks being added per year per side, killers can expect 15% of those perks to enter the meta. Survivors can expect at best 5% to enter the meta.
AKA, Killers get 2 perks on average per year that shake up the meta. Survivors get 1 usable perk every 2 years.
And yeah, ofcourse, sometimes perks absolutely destroyed the meta to a point of it getting adjusted/gutted within 2-3 months, but even if we compare there from 2020-2025, but I will add in clarification if the perk/combination is still commonly used today:
Survivors:
Made for This
Buckle Up+For The People
Boil Over (but only really on old RPD)
Circle of Healing+other healing perks (many different iterations, but most recently a full team running Circle+WGLF in 2023)
Background Player (multiple listings)
Blastmine (2022)
Soulguard+WGLF
Killers:
Weave Attunement+Franklins Demise
Ultimate Weapon (2023)
Call of Brine+Overcharge
Pentimento (2024)
Pain Res+Merciless Storm(I think 2023, only lasted 2 weeks)
Pain Res originally
Pain Res DMS (multiple listings, including the current iteration)
Starstruck+Awakened Awareness Nurse(untill 2023? I forgot when they turned her post-blink into an m2)
Undying+Ruin (2020)
Any skillcheck related build with Lullaby (2020-2023)
Hoarder (Pinhead, Wesker)
Knockout
Eruption (2023)
Thanatophobia (the one patch where everyone used it, not just Legion and Plague)
Those are all the game breaking ones I can remember, I wasnt going to include addon based builds because then the list would get a lot more complex. The only reason Hoarder got an exception was because it legit was meta to play Pinhead or Wesker with Hoarder. And while I personally do feel like I should include other meta's that were also broken but dont reach this because its not perk based (like Sadako+STBFL+Everyone spawning with a tape so she gets a free kill at 4 gens), especially because I included Soulguard+WGLF which didnt exactly appear that often despite how broken it was, those werent exactly perk-related.
So even without those, killers still have had more gamebreaking meta's.
So unless you can give exact examples where killers went 1 step forward, 2 steps back, let me slap you back with the "Your opinion is not the truth, and mine is not a lie.". Because I ACTUALLY did the research to fact check myself. In fact, up untill 2023 I would have agreed that killers got the short end of the stick in patches, untill I started comparing notes. Survivors have only recieved nett-nerfs the first 5 years of the game. Killers have seen net-buffs consistently every single year unless their name was Sally Smithson or Amanda Young. In fact, Billy's rework was the first change that resulted in a net-nerf.
Some bugfixes did end up nerfing some killers, but if we count bugfixes as a nerf, then you should consider every single time a survivor could climb on top of a rock a nerf too. -
@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000755#Comment_4000755
A call this made up nonsense. If a killer is "hard tunneling." and "face camping"(which is technically been removed years ago), it's a free gen rush wirh anything past a 1K being the survivors fault.
genrushing no longer guarantees a 1k. All the killer needs is Dead Lock to basically guarantee a kill even today. Survivors need at least 180 seconds to finish 3 gens+2 gens basekit. And a kill can be reached in less than 140 seconds on hook. That is assuming survivors can communicate.
In fact, facecamping actually benefits certain killers like Bubba and Trickster, because they can effectively bypass the basekit BT anyway, so a survivor triggering the unhook makes that 140 seconds only shorter.
So, thats a 40 second defecit, 60 if you include gates. Dead Lock turns that into a 2 minute deficit easily. -
@PetTheDoggo said:
Anti-slug can be implemented as is
No, it can't. Definetly not the part where you can crawl and recover at the same time.
It doesn't make sense to punish the killer for leaving survivor on the ground and also making them harder to find.I can work with 90 seconds limit even on killers like Twins, Oni, Plague. But I can't do anything about it, if they can always just change their location quickly, which is going to take away from time limit I am given.
Right now I know if I return within 20 seconds, I am most likely to still find survivor there, that simply wouldn't work.They also reworked Deerstalker on top of it, so you can't even use that to fix the issue.
"Definetly not the part where you can crawl and recover at the same time."
Then just hook the survivor. Slugging shouldnt give the killer the same pressure as hooking. It doesnt make sense to punish survivors as if you hooked a survivor without hooking.
Crawling and recovering at the same time should be bare minimum in the current meta. Slugging is boring, slugging has too much pressure. Crawling and recovering forced the killer to choose whether or not its worth to slug. Right now, killers dont have to choose. They can just slug.
If you came back after 20 seconds, you are going to find them within 20 meters of where you left them. Shack is 10 meters wide for reference. It's not that hard. You just walk around in the general area and listen for sound. -
@Wolf65 said:
Have you already played during the killer shortage? Killer got the short end of the stick literally every patch for years. And guess what? Killer mains either quit or switched to survivor. Lobby times for survivor skyrocketed. Killer got insta lobbies and dodged lobbies with unwanted items in it. You want to go back there? I am a returning killer main from that days, because friends told me the gamebalance got better. That "anti-tunnel/slug" mechanic would be a mace to the face to every killer player who is maining a non S tier or pay to win killer. So, right now I have 3 more month to play and triy out, if the new balance is actually balanced.
I have played pretty much every single year. And we've had survivor shortages too. Like right now, the survivor defecit is only growing. People are done being tunnelled and slugged. During the killer shortage, it was mainly due to toolboxes and generator perks not being adjusted and instaheals being a thing at the same time.
"Killers got the short end of the stick literally every patch for years"
Lie more. Survivors have been objectively, OBJECTIVELY, the most nerfed since release. They have been punished for doing their job of surviving and finishing gens. You do realize that generators used to take 60 seconds way, way back right? And that window blockers didnt exist, and all those boarded up windows you see today? Used to be viable vaulting spots too. All permanently blocked because survivors were surviving too well.
Yeah, a lot of killers do need buffs, but a lot of players need an MMR reset when anti-tunnel and anti-slug is made basekit too. A lot of players I face simply dont even know how to hook. And nowadays, survivors I face also dont know how to deal with a good hook. Taking 5 seconds longer to put a survivor on a hook next to a 90% gen is something I rarely see these days when I play survivor, because they rather go for the shiny white hook to reduce that gen for 15% and block it with DMS, which is only good if you play a mobility killer. -
It depends on time of posting, I am objectively antagonizing people who dislike the changes, especially because literally speaking, killers have been MMR boosted for 4 years.
And that isnt to say that killers are bad, but if you want to win against people who are objectively better than you at the game, you need to use mechanics like tunnelling and slugging heavily. If every game consists of tunnelling and slugging, you're simply boosted.
Honestly, BHVR should've released the update as is with a hard MMR reset, but if they are going to take 3 more months to basically get a similar result, they would need to come with a soft MMR reset. -
@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000519#Comment_4000519
100%. If 3 years of a more Killer-focused development cycle hasn't made the game enjoyable, then it's time to go back to the drawing board and figure out something better. I agree with the very vocal sentiment that the game shouldn't punish players for something they didn't do (very BAD timing given anti-go next, but y'know). I'm hoping that BHVR's intentions here are good and they won't let the system sit for any longer than it has to before trying again.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000548#Comment_4000548
Players are way too morality-driven in my opinion. My stance on going next is treated historically like an intensely political debate topic. 😵
Honestly, I dont mind if they reduce the numbers to absolute bare minimum. That would have already prevented 10 extremely boring games from playing the way they did in the past 3 days. We wouldnt have won, but at least we would have had fun.
-
@runningguy said:
even with your proposed figure changes it still doesnt solve the issue that certain low tier killers NEED to tunnel hard against good survivors so the changes would either have no effect or essentially kill the killer role. maybe the devs have realised this and dont want every match to be v same 3/4 killers as they are they only ones to perform good enough without tunneling. if i have to v nurse or blight more than i already do i wouldnt touch survivor. i rather tunneling remain and atleast go against a variety of killers. its not just tweaks thats needed its a whole new system thats needed.
I play lower tier killers, I dont NEED to tunnel against good survivors.
Besides that, the basekit bbq, basekit pop, basekit 10% kick after hooking everyone once. All things that will aid.
Against tournament squads? Yeah, sure, I would lose those without running the sweatiest build. But here's a thought: So what? SO WHAT. 1 game I will get absolutely demolished despite my best efforts. That is the killer in need of a buff, not an excuse to keep tunnelling in the game as is right now. If a killer needs to tunnel, get that specific killer buffed.
And I 100% rather play the next 3 months only against Nurse with the changes they proposed(which I do consider too extreme, it DOES need tweaking), than play the game as is right now.
Other than that, what variety? Haste Clown, Kaneki, Double speed addon Blight, Tombstone Myers, Nurse. Billy if you're lucky.
And no, its not a whole new system that is needed. Blocking gens IS a good solution to prevent rushing out a survivor at 4-5 gens "just cus". If you're a good killer, survivors wont be able to escape anyway. So what if the gen count reaches 0? You still got a 3k. You still won. I never worried about gen count ever, if I get 3-4 kills, I won. regardless if there are 0 or 5 gens remaining. By the time you NEED to tunnel someone out, you should already focus on your endgame plan.
The average gens remaining at the end of a match is 3. If balance was healthy, that average should be around 1.3.
The system they proposed requires tweaks, as an example:
1. Sadako's mori should be considered as that survivor having reached 3 full hooks.
2. The 25% is generally speaking fine, especially considering killers get 10% kick regression bonus per non-subsequent hook and a permanent 5% kick regression bonus.
3. The haste bonus for non-subsequent hooks should last untill the next time the killer uses an ability or hits an injured survivor. Effectively the conspicious action version for killers. Mobility killers would effectively lose it instantly, killers like Trapper could in theory use it forever.
The system needs tweaking, but that doesnt mean a baseline version with reduced numbers can be placed live, just to stop the current behaviour. -
@Whitey said:
You're not fooling anyone. Every post you make is glazing this update and expressing that you don't know the basic nuances of the role you profess to play more of.
This update is a neccesary evil that needs to happen. Numbers tweaked a bit, but ever since they cancelled it, the following things have happened:
1. Slugging has increased 3x
2. Tunnelling at 4-5 gens has been easily doubled
3. I've had certain killers basically abuse their ability to rush someone out, which I havent seen since anti-facecamp was introduced.
At this point, just release the update with reduced numbers.
"But killers do their job"
You know who else was just doing their job of surviving? Survivors. Yet, we have window blockers. We have a basekit slowdown if 2 survivors are on 1 gen. We have conspicious actions to cancel perks like DS and BT. We have exhaustion introduced as a generic status effect affecting exhaustion perks. We have hooks respawning within 30 seconds instead of 3 minutes, which is already a reduction because hooks never used to respawn.
All that, was just survivors doing their job of surviving too. All of those were neccesary evils that needed to be introduced for killers to have fun, most of those mechanics needed tweaks after implementation but they were implemented regardless because people were done.
Now a neccesary evil is introduced on killer side to ensure survivors having fun. Survivors are done with playing in this way. Yet not its being pushed back another 3 months just because killers dont want their toy taken away? -
@GillyBeannn said:
Slugging I'd argue is not as big of a deal as it once was back then, we have perks and we have the abandon feature, instead introduce the new mechanic of Altruistic Sacrifice, where;
Whenever a 2v1 scenario happens that the killer refuses to kill the second to last survivor by any means, and if left on the ground for 60 seconds, give that survivor the option to forcibly bleed out and die within 8 seconds.
It would stop stalemate games prolonging and give just a tiny bit hope for 50/50 escape through hatch mind you, or through doors, and for the survivor that scarifies themselves will overall get a boost in altruism points/ emblemsAnd if you wanna argue that if you wanna got next faster and just give the killer the kill, it defeats the purpose of tense situations where 1v1's can be the most adrenalizing clutch feeling for both the killer and survivor of will they or won't make it? This game's system too doesn't count hatch escapes as a win too, and counts it as tie. And if we want to as well, take Otz's idea of making the 3k just as valuable and equal in points just like the 4k.
Repeat after me:
Perks are not a solution to a basekit problem.
Perks are NOT a solution to a basekit problem.
PERKS are not a solution to a BASEKIT problem.
If you disagree, then lets put gens back to 70 seconds. Because you have pain res, pop, grim embrace. Gen speeds arent as big of a deal anymore, plenty of perks and if you cant handle it, the game is over fast anyway -
@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999768#Comment_3999768
They know this. People around here are just intentionally misconstruing the situation to play into a victim narrative.
The developers were very clear that the systems will be returning after being tweaked. People are intentionally ignoring that because it doesn't fit their agenda. And it's painfully obvious because no one will comment on it further than issuing downvotes to anyone who points it out.
They could have implemented it with small number tweaks. Drop the hook requirement to 4, drop the boost to 15%. Disable the killer haste and non-tunnel kick bonus, but keep the basekit bbq things and just implement the anti-slug as is.
Just for 3 months, while they revamp the system to be better. It would just make the game so much more fun to actually play.
Right now? I am actually intending to quit untill they drop the update. I might play a bit once the update releases depending on what changes they do implement. If they keep on some of the perk changes, especially the DMS nerf, then maybe. But overall? Quitting till they add in the anti-slug and anti-tunnel updates. Its too much to not add in any of the changes. All of them at once? Sure, I can get behind that being too much, but cancelling all of them? -
@catawumpus said:
I actually think posts like this show why 2v8 shouldn’t just be treated as “1v4 but bigger.” Trapper’s whole design is already map-dependent and inconsistent in normal trials — in 2v8 those flaws get magnified because the maps are larger, basement doesn’t exist, and traps get disarmed almost instantly in chaotic lobbies.
So while buffing him with basekit Honing Stone or faster resets sounds nice, it’s really just a band-aid. You’re still left with the problem that his kit wasn’t designed for 10 players (total). Same with Oni, Legion, etc. They either become unbearable for survivors or useless for killers depending on the lobby.
If BHVR wants killers like Trapper to work in 2v8, it needs to be systemic:
- Map design that actually supports trap play (more choke points, less sprawling dead space).
- Killer synergy mechanics, so Trapper can coordinate with his partner instead of just dropping traps that get insta-disarmed.
- Survivor classes with actual counterplay tools, instead of just everyone running around diffusing traps instantly.
Otherwise all that happens is exactly what you said — endless requests to bolt random buffs onto killers just to make them feel usable in a mode they were never built for. That’s not sustainable design.
While I do agree with the spirit behind it, map design for 2v8 on trapper is fine. And Honing Stone is the least change he needs. I do think his traps should reset if there is no killer nearby. Those 2 changes would make Trapper a great pick that requires more than just 1 Steve following Trapper and disarming all his traps to basically make it a 1v7 for the other killer.
There are plenty of choke points, Trappers' ability already has a LOT of synergy with other killers. AKA, killers can literally walk through his traps without triggering it, making it seem like a safe loop from survivor POV only to be met with a trap.
You're basically describing the original intent of 2v8 that was extremely interesting, but also an absolute monster to balance (there was a reason why Wraith wasnt a great support killer, and Huntress wasnt too amazing either, yet Wraith Huntress was such a strong combo that it was near unbeatable). We wouldnt have as many killers available in 2v8 right now if the original design was kept.
What 2v8 is missing now, is that this release didnt really add in anything new. Maps were a nice addition for variety, but 2v8 needs a new class on both sides. One that interacts with totems. -
@KingOfDoom55 said:
He's already getting a rework in 2026, I'm unsure what adjustments they should make rn for him
Oh its not basekit normal, just 2v8. And despite the rework, I dont think the main mechanic will change a lot. I think his rework is gonna be closer to Clown's rework, where he gets a secondary ability next to traps rather than an entire revamped trap system.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984364#Comment_3984364
What realms are you referring to? I’ll test it today.
its mainly realms like Red Forest, MacMillan Estate, Coldwind Farm and Decimated Borgo(Shattered Square especially, Forgotten Ruins not so much, but that might be due to the 3d structure)
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/453977/why-do-maps-feel-so-empty-now
Maps have an average of 20 pallets give or take.
Haddonfield not so much.
I've legit seen 12 at most on 3 different realms now.
The only map that has the "normal" amount of pallets so far is The Game, but normally The Game is supposed to have 4-5 pallets more than the average map -
Here's a quick sound hack:
If your ingame sound is 50% and your desktop sound is 80%→ Increase ingame sound to 100% and reduce desktop sound to 45%
Soundwise, its the same volume, but DBD has a quirk where object sounds (hatch, totems, even generators) are based on in-game sound rather than total volume -
RNG is never THIS bad. Bad RNG gives you filler pallets instead of medium or strong pallets, but it never gives you 0 pallets.
Pallet range for most maps also tend to be 13-15 pallets, Right now it feels like 10-12. I circled a map with WoO and only counted 11 pallets. Minimum spawns before TWD was 13 -
@YayC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/453384/by-far-my-biggest-kaneki-gripe
Last time I checked, Kaneki still can't injure with his 2nd attack.
Wesker can, so while Kaneki's first hit is free and Wesker takes more effort, kaneki then can't use that power to directly cause the second hit unlike wesker so it needs to have more forgiving times because it's less universal.
Wesker also doesn't need to grab onto the environment while ghoul does just to use the power in the first place which can take time to align unlike Mastermind meaning you need more time to do it.
His power is also less precise compared to mastermind, when you dash on wesker you know exactly where you'll end up if you have knowledge with him making the follow up much easier to know where to pre-aim. Kaneki slides along the floor, bounces around like a pinball and does whatever the physics engine decides making it much less predicable to use and therefor, much less reliable to get a follow up immediately.
Also if Ghoul fails to grab onto something, they get put into a mini cooldown which happens ALL THE TIME because the grab mechanic on the environment is extremely janky just like apparently half the kit. So if they made the time short like Weskers, you would constantly be getting grab validated whenever you tried to use the skillful part of the power and make him extremely frustrating to play (a reason he has to auto aim as stated by the devs).
Also I don't know what Kaneki's you're playing with who can walk around the entire shack while moving slowly between power grabs but if you want to make a point, massively exaggerating things doesn't lend well to your whole argument.
I did ignore a huge chunk of your comment last time, because it was bad arguments, but now I have time:
1. Kaneki CAN injure with his 2nd attack, he cant down with his m2, but that doesnt matter. Spirit cant either, yet she's still close to S tier. Nurse, for the longest time, was "just an m1 killer". What you can do with the m2 matters.
2. Kaneki is Wesker on steroids. He can close the gap and m1 before a survivor can counterplay. Thats basically using the m2 to down. Kaneki isnt like legion, where he uses Frenzy to close the gap and then have a 2 second fatique. Kaneki just cancels mid air and hits whenever he hits the ground next to the survivor, with only a 0.5 second window. Which isnt even enough to fast vault and make distance.
3. His power is less precise? No its not. Its extremely reliable. I hate using it as an argument, but you literally just have to get better at his power. Wesker is like a hammer, Kaneki is like a needle. The needle requires better aim, but is more precise.
4. Ah yes, the mini cooldown that doesnt matter at all, because Wesker too has a mini cooldown if he doesnt go for his second dash. Kaneki's cooldown is the same as Wesker's. Which, is fine I guess, could be higher for Kaneki imo.
5. And like I said to someone else. Its not entire shack, its a shack WALL -
@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3981613#Comment_3981613
Slinger is 110% for a reason
Because it was a standard at the time he was released? That's the reason…
That standard is gone after Trickster rework tho.
I don't believe Deathslinger is strong enough to justify him any nerfs, which this definetly is a nerf.
It's not like he fully ignores endurance, he just has an option to wait few last seconds.Lol, no. The main reason Trickster is 115% is because he couldnt be balanced as 110%. In fact, Trickster is still actively being reworked right now, because they arent happy with the current state but it's the best state he can be in right now.
As for the "110% standard", never existed like that. He was released between 115% killers
As for other examples AFTER Trickster being buffed to 115%
Chucky is 110%
Springtrap is 110%
If we're talking killers that "break" the standard" based on other reasons (high mobility/long distance damage)
Blight should be 110% realistically speaking.
Kaneki should be 110%.
Houndmaster nowadays should be 110%(since she gains a huge boost from following her dog).
Billy(when in Overdrive).
Twins (90% of her gameplay is moving around as Victor anyway)
Current Clown (assuming he doesnt get a haste nerf).
110% killers arent going away, but the logic behind 110% killers should be redefined. -
@Zuiphrode said:
The difference here is that Wesker can still chase and mabye get a hit since he's already close. Slinger has far less options in that regard.
And Slinger can reload and hit you again before you're fully out of range unless you have Overcome. It's still a gapcloser.
Slinger is 110% for a reason, yknow, while Wesker probably would be too weak if he was made 110%. So honestly, I've gotta fully disagree with you.
Wesker has to dash in a straight line at a much slower rate than Slinger. Slinger can hit you through things that Wesker can only dream of. -
@Emeal said:
idk why we are making one of the weakest Killers in the game even weaker.
"one of the weakest" → talking about a killer who people confidently put high in b-tier, some even in low a-tier.
Seriously, he's not even bottom 20. You need to be talking about bottom 5 to be talking about "one of the weakest". -
@YayC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/453384/by-far-my-biggest-kaneki-gripe
Last time I checked, Kaneki still can't injure with his 2nd attack.
Wesker can, so while Kaneki's first hit is free and Wesker takes more effort, kaneki then can't use that power to directly cause the second hit unlike wesker so it needs to have more forgiving times because it's less universal.
Wesker also doesn't need to grab onto the environment while ghoul does just to use the power in the first place which can take time to align unlike Mastermind meaning you need more time to do it.
His power is also less precise compared to mastermind, when you dash on wesker you know exactly where you'll end up if you have knowledge with him making the follow up much easier to know where to pre-aim. Kaneki slides along the floor, bounces around like a pinball and does whatever the physics engine decides making it much less predicable to use and therefor, much less reliable to get a follow up immediately.
Also if Ghoul fails to grab onto something, they get put into a mini cooldown which happens ALL THE TIME because the grab mechanic on the environment is extremely janky just like apparently half the kit. So if they made the time short like Weskers, you would constantly be getting grab validated whenever you tried to use the skillful part of the power and make him extremely frustrating to play (a reason he has to auto aim as stated by the devs).
Also I don't know what Kaneki's you're playing with who can walk around the entire shack while moving slowly between power grabs but if you want to make a point, massively exaggerating things doesn't lend well to your whole argument.
that doesnt excuse 5 entire seconds
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/453384/by-far-my-biggest-kaneki-gripe
You cannot walk around the entire shack, as his movement speed is very reduced while aiming.
I didnt say entire shack, i said entire shack WALL. Aka, going from one end of shack, to the other. I literally had that happen today.
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@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976430#Comment_3976430
Actually its not grim that gives me kills its mostly the way i play and entrap the survivors going for hook saves and i pop my tier 3 and time it always i end up with 2 to 3 downs at once which usually always wins me the match before it even started so 4 gens left.
Grim only helps as i said as a holy grail to prevent gen rushing if i dont end up snowballing with him.
And as of recently i can do mouse n keyboard on ps5 which makes me not miss my hits and can flick and loop tighter without wasting precious chase time.
Also grim is a very reliable perk and i dont see it being used at all from killers they rely more on corrupt
I see pain res+grim in like 95% of my games, the only times I dont are Aura Nurse and Aura Huntress. Corrupt Intervention is getting a bit of a comeback, but thats because Pop loses a lot of value due to Grim
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@Anti051 said:
Enforcing compliance to imaginary rules is awkward.
So, bring back Endgame DS? Bring back Endgame Off The Record?
Because that was disabled during endgame to "enforce compliance to imaginary rules" -
@Memesis said:
Why? Should toolboxes lose all charges after the first gen pops? Should Prove thyself deactivate after the first gen pops? How about deja vu?
I would rather real equalizer mechanics from 2v8 be brought into the regular 1v4 mode.
Prove Thyself, if active for 5 entire gens without interruption, still loses you time.
If, 2 survivors do 2 gens seperately, then 2 gens seperately again, then the final gen together, no prove thyself. Thats a total of 230 seconds.
If 2 survivors do all 5 gens together with prove thyself, they spend ~236 seconds on gens.
But just to adhere to your point:
Things that are disabled for survivors:
DS once the final gen pops
Off The Record once the final gen pops
There are perks on the killer side that are balanced with 4 opponents in mind, that keep their strength even if the killer did well. DS and Off The Record were balanced with remaining gens in mind, that kept their strength even if the survivors did well.
See the comparison there? Why do survivor perks get disabled after the final gen is done, but killer perks remain at full power once they get a kill already? The closest you get is Corrupt Intervention losing its blocking power after someone gets downed early, and even that was mainly due to Nurse and Blight being able to down more than 1 survivor in that timespan.
Its time to reintroduce perks being disabled after a kill. It was overkill on Ruin, its going to be welcomed on Grim -
@Coffee2Go said:
I dont know about you but my WR is always between 77-83% on myers (tanked a lil because of me doing achivements)
Anyways i use Grim and grim saved me so many times againts gen rushers and cordinated teams, and by no means this perk needs a nerf because its already missmatching and overlaping with other gen slowdown perks so technically it feels like a loner perk a lot of the times and until you hook 4 unique survivors you wont be seeing that 40s gen locks until 2 or 1 gens left, hell for me i most of the time dont get all 4 seperate hook state on different survivors.
I myself dont resort to tunneling i do try and spread hooks different and go for the person doing most value for the team and i often just get 10s of lockdown but that does not help as much because the amount of gen rush is insane.
I think before grim and other perks like corrupt are to be adjusted there has to be a nerf on survivor side when it comes for their perks stacking too and item value stacking
Grim is the only perk that allows me to snowball which actually holds value unlike corrupt and any other perk.
Grim is the holy grail
Thats an issue with Myers, Myers is one of 3 killers generally agreed upon to be unviable in current meta. The fact that you can use Grim Embrace so much to rely on it for a 80% winrate only proves my point.
Myers is in need of a buff. A winrate of 80% implies he doesnt need a buff. But everyone knows that he does. So what's the issue here? That's right, Grim Embrace. Its not the holy grail. Its giving free kills. -
@Amanova said:
And please revert haste stacking changes because Clown with Rapid Brutality is annoying to play against
Nah, haste stacking is fine, they just overbuffed clown's haste. He shouldnt even need invigoration increasing addons anymore
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Personally, I think this requires kill switching at least one of the addons, its pretty gamebreaking
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973428#Comment_3973428
You can't start chase.
I think thats intended tho, its basically an anti-bloodlust item in that sense.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/451637/scourge-hook-idea
So you want Shoulder the Burden but more punishing?
Well, its also extremely rewarding for survivors who get unhooked. This would basically be Shoulder The Burden+For The People. As for other bits, definitely needs tweaking. I based the numbers on assumptions that ignored Blight and Nurse.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
That sounds really unbalanced. While it would discourage tunneling, it would heavily encourage proxying and hook trading, and 60 seconds of aura reading is just way too long for literally anything
Yeah, its why I do think it would require a minimum distance away from hook for killers and some number tweaks. If I were to do that myself with 0 practical testing, I would make it 36 meters distance for it to trigger (REALLY requires killers to be gone), and then the biggest issue is Nurse just existing.
To somewhat get around that, you could introduce a "pulsing" aura reveal that lasts 60 seconds total, but is like 3 seconds on, 3 seconds off, which you could also apply to the killer's undetectability, so if you do have object of obsession and they have Lethal Pursuer, you get to see their aura for 2 seconds in the duration that your aura is off. And otherwise, the aura shouldnt be revealed within 24 meters, forcing a Nurse to rely on max distance blinks which are generally easier to predict.It would definitely need tweaking, is all I am saying.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/451637/scourge-hook-idea
That's pretty poop perk.
Scourge Hook: Malevolent shift: Hooking survivor on the scourge hook grants you a token. Consume token to teleport to chosen scourge hook.
Scourge hook: Lost Hope: Every time survivor is unhooked from scourge hook get a token up to a maximum of 10 tokens. For each token the open exit will be blocked for 3s.
Sourge Hook: Shadowstep: When the survivor is hooked on a scourge hook you are granted undetectable. This effect linger for 7s after survivor is unhooked.
Scourge Hook: Shattered Mirror: When each surivor is hooked on scourge hook at least once, they will all suffer mangled and hemmorage status effect for the rest of the trial.
Lol, no, it would by far be the strongest scourge in the game. 60 seconds of aura read is insane levels of info.
As for your suggestions:
1. Nope, too easy to tunnel with, too powerful of an effect too.
2. Nope, too strong of an effect too, especially in combination with Bloodwarden and certain addons, would need a counter (aka, not being hooked on a scourge reduces the tokens by 2 because of jagged compass existing)
3. Too strong. Thats like saying "if survivors plant a boon, for the duration they are inside the boon they wont be able to get downed, and that effect lingers for 15 seconds after the boon is snuffed"
4. Too strong. Thats like giving survivors a boon perk that only activates when the boon gets snuffed and be like "once the killer has snuffed the boon, 30% healing boost and 30% reduced grunts of pain for the rest of the trial"
Seriously, you're just asking for a free win. -
@Destaice said:
To clarify. I'm do not believe these addons are overpowered. This isn't a "I just got mori'd and I'm mad" thread. Rather I feel like these addons prevent Myers from seeing meaningful changes to not be so weak.
Sometimes in online games a weak mechanic or item or character will get removed or reworked because they clog up design space. They prevent something else from being buffed or added and therefore must go.
I believe the tombstone addons are such a case. Myers is a weak killer. But if he was stronger then these addons would be menacing as they break the rules of the game. The only way to buff Myers without making these addons problematical would be to simultaneously nerf them into being unusable. In which case why not just get rid of then?
Judiths Tombstone is what I consider healthy. Tombstone piece needs a rework.
Things I could change about Tombstone Piece (each being an individual thing, not all being added):
Option 1: add a 9% hinderance effect in T3 like Judith's
Option 2: Only allow Tombstone Piece to mori injured survivors rather than healthy ones
Option 3: Instead of mori, send the survivor to the hook that is furthest to all survivors(still insane pressure to do that to a healthy survivor).
Option 4: Rework the addon entirely, preferably into an addon that turns the survivor total stalk into a single pool, and stalking any survivor takes from the pool. -
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963530#Comment_3963530
You keep attacking the bottom of the skill floor without realizing these changes affect a lot more than just that. Similarly, you're reducing an aspect of survivor agency required in countering the purple bottles simply by virtue of making them have a tighter skill floor needed to utilize them properly. In other words these changes specifically target both bad killers and bad survivors, punishing one while making life easier for the other.
Personally I enjoyed the purple bottle aspect of going against killer, as it always encouraged me to keep an eye on both distance to him and when/where he is going to zone with the bottle, so I could reroute on the fly to bait him to throw a bottle at one area of a tile while going toward another during that time. That back and forth is still going to be there, but its going to be a lot easier to capitalize on that type of mistake now. Instead the chase will shift to "is this routing going to give him a disproportionate amount of distance that I can't really do anything about unless he messes up" with the bulk of the interactions relying mostly on how well he does(n't) use the yellow bottle at actual tiles. Clowns who are exceptionally skilled will already have the placements and timings down to not lose too much efficiency with the purple bottle changes, but even people using them normally and not "spamming" them will be affected by these changes.
And thats not even talking about how it changes his identity. Deprioritizing what is his main focus both in terms of his original gameplay design and even his lore just feels bizarre to me. They added the yellow bottles later to help with one of his biggest weaknesses, and while I consider them a very welcome addition to his power, they have absolutely nothing to do with its core design. They're just an ancillary improvement that was later added, and function wildly different than what any other part of his kit was originally designed around. Its a pretty extreme example, but that would be like BHVR focusing on buffs for that meme nurse addon that removes her ability to blink through objects, while also nerfing the skill floor for said ability to blink through objects. Or Huntresses' addon that helps her when she has no hatchets left while nerfing her hatchets. Yes I know they're different because they're addons rather than basekit ancillary effects, but the point was in the comparison of primary vs secondary aspects of their design.
Fun to play against matters roughly as equally to how fun something is to play as.This is also not how you design powers. Fun is entirely subjective, and should always be secondary to functionality, viability, and incentive to be applied (aka, the user's "fun" but not necessarily the recipient's.) The opponent's fun is certainly an important consideration, but if it needs to suffer a bit for the other factors, that's a necessary sacrifice. Just think about all the types of objective denial on either side, they quite literally attack the fun of your opponent while simultaneously undoing their progress. I'm not the biggest fan of that, but its a pretty clear prioritization in design.
Again, there are other things that are definitely overlooked.There are certainly universally positive changes, but my focus is strictly on how this changes the Clown as a character, and why.
In fact, if we're talking about that: purple clouds should disable fast vaults on pallets.I don't know about this one, mostly because of how vaulting pallets work in terms of momentum. I think it might be worth testing that type of impact, but it could easily become way too oppressive due to how tiles can be laid out.
Honestly, if they actually wanted to make him more fun to go against, attack his skill floor while not hurting everything above it, and give him something to offset the purple bottle changes specifically… They should have given him a reason to get direct hits. Doesn't have to be something absurd like basekit pinky finger, but even something as simple as restoring a single bottle use with a 30 second cooldown on the ability to proc another direct hit would be a proper way of softening that kind of blow. Or maybe a bottle that has a direct hit has the pre-nerf numbers. There is room even now to make these types of changes not disproportionately focus on the worst players on both sides.
Edit: This whole mass downvoting topics removing them from being able to bump really needs to change. Bad ideas can lead to fruitful discussions, and the calculations in the OP alone are very helpful.
Im gonna try and keep it asa short as possible:
"Fun is entirely subjective, and should always be secondary to functionality"
Yes and no. It's kinda a fact in gaming that reducing/removing player agency is inherently anti-fun. Its why anti-slug HAS to be introduced because its the most boring basekit mechanic that should have recieved a QoL or rework 5 years ago. The specifics of fun is secondary to functionality, but player agency has priority over proper functionality. In fact, why do you think Trapper hasnt seen any significant buff. Because every single trap activation outside chase removes player agency. Traps inside chase and chasing survivors towards traps is absolutely something players dont mind. But now imagine tripling the amount of traps but reducing the time to get out by half, and it would still be too boring since the chances of you randomly hitting a trap happens often enough to get boring.
Objective player fun is directly tied to agency. It's also why Trapper is one of the least played killers, despite being the poster boy of DBD. You lack player agency as Trapper by being forced to walk certain directions, being forced to stand still to place traps, only for it to be disabled 3 seconds later because there was an Ace in a bush looking at you placing that trap. Trapper is fully functional, but his agency drops with each update since there are more things people can do while Trapper is still tied. Hag also has some reduced agency, but she doesnt have to gather traps and can still use her traps to manipulate other players into a viable agency. Its why Hag is more fun to play than Trapper, despite gameplay wise being very similar killers.
This change shouldnt also be seen as the end of Clown changes. But as a new baseline that can actually be improved. It's often sounding weird to say, but a nerf in the most used mechanic, often leads to the killer as a whole being able to recieve buffs. Legion got a tiny nerf in mending times, which allowed him to be buffed without it being too boring to face. Slinger got an ADS nerf, which has allowed for buffs over time, making his current version stronger than his ADS-instashot version. Pyramidhead has gotten 2 quite significant nerfs in the next patch, but those nerfs do allow for the rest of the buffs to be possible without it being gamebreaking.
Sometimes, you need a nerf in purple bottles, to get a very significant buff later on. And Clown isnt done. We riot if this is his final stage for now. He needs more status effects other than hinderance(like broken if they are injured while intoxicated, haemorrhage basekit makes sense too, its a toxic concoction, I am expecting debuffs) and haste basekit(my suggestion being action speeds in general, vaulting, breaking pallets, picking up survivors, breaking walls and gens, heck, even pallet endurance would fit there, its HARD to time a bottle like that). He can finally have 8 bottles basekit. There are oppertunities for buffing that didnt exist prior, and those oppertunities should be grabbed. -
@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963521#Comment_3963521
Oh, so now it's NOT about fun, but about "agency." Funny how the goalposts move. You have the "agency" to dodge the bottles. Just like the killer has the "agency" to face a wall when picking up.
Agency is directly linked to fun. It is unfun because there is a lack of agency. And no, you dont have the "agency" to dodge bottles, there is an instant AoE around the bottle that you would need to move 6 meters per second for to dodge.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963329#Comment_3963329
I'm not saying Clown is particularly fun to play against. However I don't feel like the yellow bottle buffs will make him anymore enjoyable to face. Ideally a killer will be equally enjoyable for both sides. Unfortunately that's a rare thing to achieve so variety is the next best thing we can hope for.
Oh 100% agreed. I feel like this should be seen as a new standard for Clown, and I am 1000% expecting QoL tweaks and buffs here and there. 9.0 purple bottle clown isnt fun to face due to removing player agency. 9.1 clown is more fun to face in good loops (he still gets hits quickly enough), but he is lacking some oompf that makes him boring to face in the long run.
I would personally just increase action speeds for clown while invigorated, and apply more status effects when survivors are intoxicated. That feels fitting for Clown. -
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963309#Comment_3963309
Many people in this community think that how fun something is to play against is more important than how fun (or even functional) it is to play as. Im sure nyoomin around more often will be more fun to some people, but missing hits that would have been gained through proper zoning or obstacle denial is going to feel pretty unrewarding to play for many. And considering those are the types of things his original power was built on, if his yellow bottles weren't already in the game it would feel like a rework at this point. So there's probably going to be pretty mixed reception.
You can still zone, you can still deny obstacles. That doesnt change. What does change is purple bottle spam becomes less viable. And bottle spam isnt "proper zoning", thats "I dont know how to zone, so I am just throwing enough stuff so I can still get a hit".
And talking about his original power, BECAUSE it gave hinderance, he was also slowed down while holding a bottle before throwing it. To give a downside to hinderance. Right now, its THE strongest hinderance effect, with no downsides. Considering his power was designed to have a downside with the hinderance effect in mind, this fits.
Fun to play against matters roughly as equally to how fun something is to play as. OG alchemist ring was fun to play as on Blight, not fun to face against.
Again, there are other things that are definitely overlooked. Bottle count can (and should) be increased. Haste needs to be upped to 13% (and there needs to be different activation times between Clown and Survivors). The only alteration I would arguably give for purple bottles, is to have it linger for longer and spread further over time as a basekit thing. Because once a purple bottle is thrown, survivors shouldnt want to stick around. And right now, I will concede that survivors do not feel the need to leave a tile mainly due to the effect not lingering, which is an issue on its own, but is fully solvable by simply increasing cloud spread over time and increasing cloud duration.
In fact, if we're talking about that: purple clouds should disable fast vaults on pallets. I didnt go too much into other changes, since this was purely looking on how Clown has seen quite a significant buff overall speaking. This change would need some QoL changes, for sure, but 15% haste is STEEP without a downside attached to it in modern day DBD. Thats comparable to Bill being able to use basekit Chemical Trap everytime they pallet stun a killer. Sure, a lot of killers can manage against that still and still get 3k's consistently, but it would get boring really quick if you see Bill every 10 games, then every 7 games, then every 4 games as more and more people realize how they can use it.
There are a lot of things I would give to Clown. I would give him an equal % in pallet breaking, vaulting and hit recover speeds while invigorated. I would inflict survivors with deepwound or a timed broken status effect if they are hit while intoxicated, give them exhaustion for the entire duration they are intoxicated too.
There are a lot of things you can give to Clown that are really strong, but dont impede on fun. But 15% basekit hinderance isnt one of those things. -
@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963300#Comment_3963300
"The fun of purple bottles is very one sided tho"
The fun of flashlights is very one sided. They should be nerfed significantly. The fun of hook sabo's is very one sided. They should be nerfed significantly. The fun of pretty much every item is very one sided. They should be nerfed. The fun of Shift+W is very one sided. It should be nerfed. The fun of exhaustion perks is very one sided. They should basically be useless now.
See, the problem when you try to say, "This isn't fun for survivors!" is that the same argument can and should be applied evenly. Either we care about how fun something is for the other side, or we don't.
EDIT: And you can pretend like it's not that big of a nerf to Purple Bottles, but they lost 60% of their effectiveness.
Except, as a killer, you have basekit counterplay to it and none of them remove agency. If anything, if you want to compare it to survivor mechanics, you should apply that to Chemical Trap, as it forces something you cannot possibly counter and thus removes player agency. Which, I agree with, fyi. But even then, Chemical Trap cant be spammed on every pallet you encounter. Champion of Light only really has an effect if survivors blind you at the last second of a pallet break, and even then they technically lose more distance than if they just ran away.
As for fun, it's subjective, sure, but when 80% of players facing it actively despise a mechanic because it removes agency.
Its not that its not fun for survivors, its that its NEVER fun for survivors. There are a lot of mechanics that people consider unfun that others consider fun. Near 20% hinderance is never fun. You literally move at a speed that you would walk at with Fixated. You're effectively facing a killer who moves at 144%(comparable to a cloaked wraith) if they have Flask equipped, or 135%(comparable to legion in frenzy) if they dont, but you cant fast vault windows, only med or slow vault them.
And no, they didnt lose 60% of their effectiveness. Most good purple bottles have survivors run through multiple times or have the killer hit them within 1.5 seconds after they exit the cloud. Again, its roughly a 1 meter distance loss per bottle. That's at most 10% more distance assuming the survivor gets hit by a single atom of the cloud.
Purple bottles were too weak 5 years ago, then haste was added to compensate because more hinderance or just more bottles wasnt a healthy option. Then more bottles were added anyway to give both bottles more compatability. But as you can see, just adding more purple bottles wasnt a healthy option. Players then have used the additional bottles just to play purple bottles, which isnt a healthy playstyle. The only reason it took this long for them to adjust the purple bottles after increasing the bottle count, is because it took 4 years for people to discover Flask of Bleach. They were too distracted by Pinky Finger for the first 3 years and when that got nerfed people who dont main Clown stopped playing Clown.
Seriously, this isnt a bad change, in fact, I can easily see his bottle cap being increased too before it hits live servers. Clown gets a lot more fun to face again, despite his purple bottles only having a relatively minor nerf, while his haste bottles see a significant buff(on top of better reloads, which was the biggest time consumption for Clown over the course of a match). -
@Cornil said:
I tested this to see if what you're demonstrating is true, but I believe you're mistaking the "Bloodweb Unlocks" screen as telling you that you just received those items. I tried this on a character I never play, saw that I only owned 9 of a certain purple addon. This addon was in my current bloodweb. I did as you instructed, claimed everything down to the last common item, including the purple addon. Checked my inventory, it was now at 10. I used the "Spend Bloodpoints" skip, as per your demonstration, and the "Bloodweb Unlocks" only showed what I had just manually spent my BP on. I checked my inventory, and it did not in fact duplicate those items. The purple addon was still at 10.
Unless if I'm not understanding your explanation properly, the screenshots you showed have the exact same items you manually redeemed listed as the "4-10 slots" that you "receive" for 2000 bloodpoints. And as I just tested, it shows the same thing for me, but doesn't give me the items twice.
Am I missing something here?
Odd, because depending on the situation, I do get additional slots in my inventory, especially if they get randomized (which, seems to happen randomly, the only significant time I've seen it happen while testing it out is during a prestige). I've had times where there were 0 cakes on my bloodweb, but 2 event slots. Use the autospend trigger, and then get 2 cakes on that list on top of the event slots I had originally on the web.
What I did find out in the meantime, is that relogging does kinda "reset" the randomized effect and doesnt seem to happen untill you've played at least 1 game, so perhaps its tied on how you enter a lobby. -
@CLHL said:
The yellow bottles was already over-buffed last time and is in a better than good position, pretty crazy with some lunge and haste perk combinations. If the average player doesn't use them, it's their problem for not using the Clown at his 100% potential. They shouldn't try to force yellow bottles with more buffs (although premature activation is actually a nerf) and nerfs to the purple bottle. And to top it off, they nerf him even further with addons.
Dracula's wolf was buffed because it was garbage. Now that it's good, even if there are those who prefer not to use it, there's no need to nerf his other two forms to boost the wolf usage. Let everyone play as they please.
In short, the yellow bottle was already better than the purple one.
I wouldnt call it better prior, but definitely the more interesting bit.
As for Dracula, the problem was that his overall kit is fine. Where with Clown, just buffing yellows and not touching purples is significantly different.
Dracula cannot use a fire pillar, then turn to bat, then turn to wolf in quick succession to get a quick hit. There are cooldowns, there are movement vectors that are reset between transformations.
Where with Clown, if you just buff his yellows, he goes from a killer who can get quite easy hits on a lot of tiles, to a killer who only needs to carry Fire Up as a perk and wins every loop fast enough to stop game progression due to how quickly he can hook, especially against soloQ.The risk on haste on survivors with a 19% hinderance bottle on demand is more than fully negated.
-
@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963256#Comment_3963256
I don't see how spamming yellow bottles at the floor will be more satisfying or skillful than what you can do right now with a combination of both. Flask of bleach aside, normal purples were fine as is.
Clown's not a haste centric killer, he's a slowdown killer- that's his identity. Making him a haste centric killer just feels wrong imo.
15% USED to be fine, when there were slightly more pallets and windows. When maps were slightly bigger. Clown NEEDED 15% because otherwise he didnt have enough time to reload and move elsewhere on the map.
The reload movement speed being 50% faster, while also being 30% quicker, with less pallets and smaller maps in general, easily compensates for that 3% nerf. 12% hinderance is plenty.
And you're not spamming yellow bottles. Nor will he be haste centric. Just see him as a killer who sometimes sniffs some powdered substances mid chase sometimes that he spills everywhere, that survivors sometimes accidentally experience too, which totally fits his identity.
Next to that, Clown hasnt been mechanically slowdown centric since 2021. People just have refused to learn his full kit since then. -
@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963256#Comment_3963256
The problem with that is Clown currently has a very different playstyle. If people wanted to play a mobility killer there are significantly better options no matter how much you spam the yellow bottles. The fun of the purple bottles is cutting off and corralling the survivor where you want them to go. Ultimately they'll be killing what makes Clown different.
The fun of purple bottles is very one sided tho, and especially at 19% hinderance, there is 0 challenge to it.
And once again, he does have a difficult playstyle, which is why 1 second activation for clown and 2 second activation for survivors, with that 1% additional haste will push his yellow bottles in the realm of significant lower difficulty while also being insanely rewarding with perks like STBFL or Rapid Brutality.
They wont be killing what makes Clown different, because the haste is already what pushes Clown to quite a high skill ceiling with a ton of reward. If we just delete Flask of Bleach from the game right now, I rather would face a pink bottle only clown than a clown who uses yellow bottles too.
Once again, any hinderance that's 15% or higher basekit, needs downsides to compensate for the fact that it kills loops AND kills going from tile to tile. Especially considering that next to the 15% slowdown, he also has access to a 10% haste effect.
Ultimately, Clown is boring to face with his current hinderance effect. And that can matter a lot more than him being balanced in a 1v4(again, this change is a buff overall).
It's the same with Kaneki's stun, 2 seconds of immobility should be extremely difficult to pull off, because otherwise it gets boring. Kaneki is boring due to his removal of agency. Clown is boring because his massive reduction of agency.
12% hinderance is plenty for basekit bottles. If you wanna use pink bottles more often, use Flask after the changes for a 14% hinderance, more than plenty of hinderance to get hits if you're good. -
@Choaron said:
Thanks for the numbers. Still a painfully bland and unsatisfying playstyle, comparatively. I'd rather keep the current slightly-weaker Clown than this one, personally.
Purple bottles are unsatisfying right now tho, they literally give free hits, especially with flask of bleach.
At least every hit thanks to yellow bottles is an instant dopamine satisfaction. -
@Ryuhi said:
Does purple not have a much stronger usage case argument to skew that ratio? Not only does the survivor potentially benefit from yellow in the event of poor placement, but preventing a survivor from reaching a resource and forcing them to not be able to utilize it to its potential is more impactful than simply catching up to them? Preventing fast vaulting alone represents a pretty significant advantage to the bottles' applications. Time's value in DBD is a bit relative, and it can often be easily distorted when applying other factors.
I can always be missing something. I barely ever play him, but even when going against him I only ever see exceptionally good clowns even use the yellow bottle properly, instead of just to take off across the map. They just don't have a great risk/reward to be used in chase compared to purple (the part of his power he was actually built around) unless you are very good at exactly when and where to use them. If usage rates were part of the consideration, they should have worked on improving that ratio instead of taking a bite out of what his power used to only be. Or even doing both and kinda normalizing somewhere in the middle.
It does time-wise have a stronger argument, but gameplay wise, you're removing 15% mobility against a 115% killer, which creates boring gameplay from a survivor perspective. Sure, its effective, but killers also gotta be fun to face. Its why I consider the usage of Flask of Bleach effectively as if you were using tombstone piece on myers.
I think 13% hinderance is fine, I think less lingering in the cloud should reward survivors too, while lingering in the cloud being the biggest part of Clown's power. Right now, almost HALF his power is the lingering effect. So that needed a nerf. I think any hinderance with 15% needs a HEAVY downside to it, especially if it is as spammable as Clown. Back in the day, that downside was being reduced to 95% movement speed while preparing a bottle throw, which was problematic since it effectively fully negated most slows.
The yellow bottle introduction made Clown significantly stronger and they could have heavily nerfed the purple bottles back then. But instead of learning the new bottles, most Clown players pretty much exclusively use pink bottles.
And yeah, poor placement of yellow bottles will punish Clown. Just as any poor placement of power can really benefit survivors/punish killers.
Again, the only change I would be altering, is adding 1 more % to haste, and giving the yellow cloud a 1 second activation delay for Clown, but 2 for survivors. That would pretty much solve all issues I encounter -
@Zuiphrode said:
So it would basically… just do nothing?
Literally the entire reason it exists is to prolong EGC. Your suggestion makes no sense.
This also literally isn't even a strong perk in the first place.EGC is 2 minutes, wdym prolong? No way out blocks it for up to a minute during EGC and gives info on where the last survivor is, when the whole point of EGC is a 1v1 mindgame and trying to convince the killer to check the other gate while you prep another.
No Way Out literally removes that, you might aswell just end the game the second hatch is closed -
Except it wasnt a moot point tho, the main take-away there was "mainly because we had 2 survivors knowing how to counterplay.". If we didnt have 2 players who knew how to counterplay the perk and killers, we would have definitely lost.
They were good killers who knew how to get a ton of value out of the perk, I just happened to be with someone else who knew when the killers were forced to the other gate because otherwise it would open up, which would give a net-gain of 10% progress each time.
Its not anecdotal since I faced plenty where I lost to who played worse in terms of timing, it was just survivors who didnt know how to counterplay the killer-perk combo.
By all means, that would have still instigated a nerf, but it would have been reduced to 25% time reduction as that was more than plenty at the time to do gates. But Singu is the only reason its been nerfed the way it has, because it would otherwise be literally impossible.
Extremely strong to the point of needing close to perfect teamwork to counter does not equal impossible, where singularity could literally make it impossible.It's like saying the original rework of Boil Over was extremely strong to the point of basically needing an instant pickup so you could reach the hook, but not impossible to counter, unless you played on RPD or Dead Dawg Saloon. But neither DDS nor RPD could be tweaked in a way that would make that version of Boil Over fair.
Haywire was gonna get nerfed, but Singu is the reason on why its gutted.