Destaice
Destaice
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"Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a God, but never without a belief in a devil". - Eric Hoffer
Most of the content creators for DBD main killer and a lot of social media are streamer killer mains engaging in a toxic echo chamber where complain all day that every survivor is bad and toxic. Not all streamers of course but enough to be a noticeable problem. It's easy to blame them both because of their influence as content creators but also the toxicity they spew on a daily basis.
But the change probably had nothing to do with them.
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Friend you're clearly tilted from a losing streak and are taking your venting a bit too far. You might just wanna take a break from PvP games for a minute to relax.
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Dead by Daylight is extremely snowbally and while the changes addressed how killers could snowball a game it did nothing to address how survivors can snowball the game.
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@Vampwire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028804#Comment_4028804
I'll spell it out for you: There's no detriment to being caged now. You essentially get all the benefits of being unhooked despite perks, ones which u might not even have. Then total stealth when being unhooked, making it basically a free save. This is all considering you don't get sent 5 feet next to a gen your team is working on already. Cages at this point are worse than hooks in every way, as they're only good situationally and generate basically no pressure. While also not even activating perks killers get for hooking. If you're just gonna strawman me by saying I'm mad I can't tunnel anymore, then don't even bother getting into the conversation.
The cage has always been a situationally useful tool and that hasn't changed. The only change that has occurred is the noise notification and the upcoming anti-tunnel changes.
It's not really a strawman it's the only thing you're complaining about.
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Is this even a complaint about Pyramid Head when your core complaint is "i no longer get easy wins by running to the saved survivor and downing them before a reset"?
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I feel like it's very telling to think Nurse is weak.
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This is really incoherent rant because it operates entirely on the assumption survivors give because they are entitled and that entitlement is from them being wrong about game balance. Which is putting the bolts before the cart before the horse. It's a circular reasoning fallacy.
Why survivors give up can be pretty varied and inconsistent. Mostly just because what players find fun or frustrating will change greatly from each individual player and can even change from day to day. 1 night you might not mind being the first person in chase and going down early because you were in an unsafe area when the chase began. 1 night you might have had a terrible day at work and this situation is just too frustrating for you to want to continue playing. I'm not saying entitlement doesn't influence a give up, just that it's incorrect to assume it has such a strong influence on giving up to that it can be blamed entirely. Take 100 different players who all gave up because they were first chase and you'll get 100 different reasons why they did so. -
@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4027152#Comment_4027152
Forum here is survivor sided. Ofc they don't like it
Literally proving the "us vs them" comment right
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It's literally just the rock paper scissors meme but the person is serious.
"I only play heckin wholesome off meta killers and build. It's the survivors playing meta who are the problem"
https://www.reddit.com/r/SmashBrosUltimate/comments/192jsgb/hint_always_choose_rock/
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@Shaddoll_Serpent said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4027127#Comment_4027127
I had a guy abandon a winnable 3v1 at 2 gens after taking two downs for the person who was getting tunneled causing the rest of us to lose that game.
The very winnable game of 1 survivor getting slugged, 1 survivor repeatedly healing the slug, and 1 survivor getting chased to be tunneled out. Who is doing those 2 gens in this scenario?
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The option to abandon after being downed a 3rd time only appears if the killer left you slugged and you were healed off the ground 2 previous times. So if you're seeing it a lot in your games it's either bugged of you're excessively slugging.
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Nobody is confused on why killers tunnel. The debate is whether or not excessive tunneling is healthy for the game.
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In my experience most toxicity in games comes from people putting unreasonably high expectations on their fellow players and allowing themselves to get upset when those expectations are not met.
It feels rare to talk to a killer main who has played DBD for 6+ years who doesn't think every survivor is a 5 gen chase juicer. "If you're losing to Legion in chase you're just bad."
Honey, this person plays like 5 rounds of DBD each week. You are ridiculous if you think they're not allowed to lose chase to M1 killers.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4023941#Comment_4023941
Yeah but it was one of the few things trapper was good at... now hes just borderline unusable...
In game design sometimes there are mechanics or strategies that prevent better more meaningful changes from being designed into the game. By trapper's design you can't reasonably buff him, as in buffs would just make his camping more effective. If camping if off the menu, then you can buff trapper without having the worry about a bunch of people queueing up mcmillian to pitch tents.
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I'm confused. What was preventing you from taking the trap off?
Was the pig body blocking you into a poorly placed box? Because thats bannable.
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I swear any mention of tunneling brings out the worst in people.
I saw a thread on Twitter about how survivors sometimes get themselves tunneled. Like a freshly healed unhook running into the killer on purpose because they wanna use DS or think the killer will just ignore them. While I agree with the thread I personally don't think its tunneling if you antagonize the killer after the unhook.
But then somebody else replied claiming survivors get tunneled when they try to heal under the hook. To which I replied that if you're running back to the hook to prevent a reset and get an easy down on the fresh unhook, you're choosing to tunnel. That's just what tunneling is and you chose to do it.
And now I have angry people I'm my replies telling me I'm an entitled survivor main who thinks killers have to play by my made up rules. Like I didn't say you couldn't tunnel, just that you're choosing to tunnel.
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Know a thread is spicy when it's 10 pages long and in the first 2 pages half the posters are banned
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Killers shouldn't get notified you're in the void unless you linger there or keep going in/out.
If the killer isn't in chase you've entered the free hit zone. If the killer is in chase you just sacrificed half a generator for a crystal that repairs 1/4th a gen.
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@cogsturning said:
Someone makes a joke and the victimhood goes through the roof. How does a game about torturing and murdering innocent people have such a fragile community?
Most people who play killer only do so because they enjoy that asyms are impossible to balance and that killer provides easy wins to flatter egos.
Killer mains constantly crying about hard it is to win while bragging about their near 2000 game winstreaks as if that's reasonable in any game -
I don't recall the Devs ever arguing people are not allowed to win playing DBD. Maybe you're from another universe or something but that didn't happen here.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020373#Comment_4020373
Ah i see, well if you aren't willing to have a reasonable discussion about it there really isn't much of a point.
Face camping was a repetitive and boring strategy that made the game a worse experience for all sides and the game is an objectively better place without it.
If you're pretending to not understand the issues with face camping I suspect you simply do not like actually playing Dead By Daylight.
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I have to ask. What is your definition of "hand holding."?
I would argue hand holding is giving somebody an unfair advantage. So how is basekit Borrowed Time and anti-face camp unfair advantages? It's the opposite. Face camping a hook and instant downing the unhook had no counter play.
But you seem to think hand holding is any time a buff, nerf, or rework you don't like happens.
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Your argument assumes killers only tunnel after being forced into a losing position and having no alternative. This blatantly isn't true.
Most players do not mind being tunneled out if the game is almost over. There are survivors who will throw a fit but these are the type of players who throw a temper tantrum no matter what happens. So they can be ignored.
The tunneling players hate is when it happens early. Sometimes you spawn in at a really bad location. You try to move to a better one but the killer had Lethal Persuer and caught you out. The only resources nearby are unsafe 50/50s and you go down early. Then immediately after getting unhooked the killer is back on you while you're still in unsafe territory. It's 5 gens left and you're death hook while the killer is proxy camping for the kill. There's nothing survivors can realistically do to stop this.
Sure this isn't every example of tunneling but it's scenarios like these that make people quit. Games with early tunneling are absolutely miserable and unfun. And any game having a consistently unfun play pattern is unacceptable. If a game is routinely unfun people stop playing.
The only point you were correct on is that killers tunnel to win. And winning is irrelevant if nobody enjoys playing the game.
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Wolfgang Iser (yes that's a real name) coined the idea of Free Play and Instrumental Play. Free play has no rules or goals. Instrumental play is more structure with objectives.
These ideas were expanded upon in their relationship to video games. Particularly how players can create Instrumental practices that exist entirely out of Dev control, but the community widely accepts. You can think of Boop the Smoot as 1 such example. Behavior did not create and cannot enforce Boop the Snoot, but the community widely boops.
I bring this up because most players will tell you that 0-1 kills is a lose, 2 a tie, and 3-4 kills a win. It's a community driven Instrumental practice that Behavior cannot control. When a streamer does a 200 win streak with each game needing 3 kills to count it has nothing to do with the actual rules of the game.
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@ChurchofPig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991542#Comment_3991542
"In this made up scenario" and it's a scenario that happens often in this game and how these changes would effect that situation going forward…
No it doesn't. If you have to lie to make an argument then you just don't have an argument.
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The game is designed around and balanced around the fact that survivors cannot communicate with each other.
So I don't think it's fair to criticize survivors for losing when they cannot read minds.
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@Raptorrotas said:
If you aren't skilled at using your power or survivors are simply playing better, then you are supposed to lose.
By that logic all survivors who complain about killers killing them are massive hypocrites cuz the killer was simply their better by killing them. After all, if you arent skilled at evading getting killed, you're supposed to lose.
Yes survivors who whine and throw a fit when they don't win are annoying. What does that have to do with gameplay balance?
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@SAWII said:
”Being able to consistently force a 1v3 is inherently unbalanced and unhealthy for the game.”
???
DBD is an elimination game. The goal is to eliminate people. In what world is doing so unbalanced or unhealthy?
You could at least try to engage with this honestly and in good faith.
In theory the gameplay dynamic is 1 survivor in chase, 1 is on hook, 1 is running to rescue, and 1 is working on a generator. You remove 1 survivor from this equation and the balance shifts drastically in the killer's favor. Obviously games don't play out perfectly like this but it is how the game is "balanced." Survivors doing well in chase get more gen pressure, killers doing well in chase stop gen progress.
Tunneling somebody out at the start of the game results in a completely 1 sided match that most survivor teams are incapable of recovering from. This is mostly due to survivors lacking any real communication. I think it's fair to say most people find 1 sided games unfun to play. And because it's a consistent play pattern is why I argue it's unbalanced and unhealthy.
You are not engaging in normal eliminations when you force a 1v3.
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So in the made up scenario that an unhooked survivor is throwing themselves at you if you slug them they're on the ground for 90 seconds or their team has to stop doing gens to help.
Either scenario is to your benefit.
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@tuttoinunavolta said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989915#Comment_3989915
I love how you didn't actually address anything I've said, and just assume I tunnel people, but ok, let's address your points
1) First problem is that Pyramid Head's mori only activates on death hook. So if that happens early into the game you were absolutely tunneling.
Who said anything about it happening early into the game?? The new mechanic just needs Pyramid Head to mori the person who was last hooked, even if it's in the middle of the match and even if Pyramid wasn't tunneling, to give a permanent gen repair speed buff. It's problematic.
2) Sadako can lock in condemned stacks by hooking survivors.
I am a P100 Sadako, I know how she works. And I still don't understand why you keep bringing up "at the start of the game". There can be 3 gens left when you get a mori, and maybe you didn't get 6 full hooks as a whole. At times, as Sadako, you should focus on the condemn progress more than hooks, and it's perfectly possible to not have 6 hooks before you get somebody fully condemned.
Your point also conveniently leaves out that you could very well hook any time you can, but if a survivor plays badly and gets themselves condemned, you can't mori them yet or else his teammates get a buff. It's asinine, and completely unrelated to tunneling.
3) Pig being similar in that its either noobs or tunneling for a head trap.
I believe you genuinely didn't understand the patch notes at this point. Just like with Pyramid, all it takes is for the head trap mori to happen when that person was the last hooked for the punishment to trigger. This can happen when there are only 2 gens left and it just buffs the other survivors for no reason, without even necessarily punishing tunneling.
From your constant bringing up of "at the start of the game" it seems to me as if you don't really understand why I'm criticizing this mechanic, nor how it works at all. And it's fine, but you can at least reread the patch notes before commenting, and without being all smug about it.
How does Pyramid Head get a survivor on death hook and then mori them without hooking the other survivors to avoid the tunnel mechanic, and how is that any different than just hooking a death hook survivor?
You can't answer this question because all you know how to do is tunnel.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989869#Comment_3989869
Tunneling one out right off the bat has nothing to do with making a match last longer and everything to do with drastically swinging the balance of a match to the killer's favor. No one tunnels to extend a match - they tunnel to win.
Killers who tunnel every game fuming that you told the truth that tunneling snowballs a game in the killer favor.
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@tuttoinunavolta said:
"If a Survivor dies before 6 total hook states, all remaining Survivors gain a repair speed bonus for the rest of the Trial."
Did you guys forget you made a bunch of killers, like Sadako, Pig and Pyramid Head, that have alternate Mori conditions? I main Sadako, it happens fairly frequently that some survivors don't interact with tapes at all and I manage to kill them before I got 6 hooks as a whole. If they play badly, why do I have to be penalized?
Sadako's most interesting thing she has going on is her Condemn, and it works only if the killer plays well and outsmarts the survivors - but now I have to make sure I don't actually do that, else I might get penalized for using the power you guys made for this killer. She was purposefully made for macro play, her chase power is barely there (and that's good! I don't want to play a chase killer if I pick her) but now I have to go against her entire design in order to not be penalized.
I think the anti-slugging changes are amazing and most tunneling-related stuff is great too.
But this change (and the "no more gen regression" one) legit just turns the game into a round of babysitting. Tunneling is a problem, but the 6 hooks change barely even touches it; focusing on 2 alternate survivors isn't tunneling, why is it being addressed?? Killer now has to keep 6 different side effects in mind and play inefficiently, whereas the survivors have less things to think about that go beyond the useful and needed anti-slugging and anti tunneling.
My main and favorite character getting her power kit obliterated as a side effect just makes it even more of a obnoxious change, personally.
First problem is that Pyramid Head's mori only activates on death hook. So if that happens early into the game you were absolutely tunneling.
Second problem. Sadako can lock in condemned stacks by hooking survivors. So if you got a super early condemned kill one of 3 scenarios played out. You tunneled, you went a cheesy fast condemn build with a map offering, or you're playing against noobs. In the later 2 you probably win anyways given the circumstances. So what are you complaining about?
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In my honest opinion, the massive skill difference in survivor team comps makes this mode kind of unbearable. 1v4 already has problems where 1-3 great survivors will get paired with 1-3 "whats a loop?" survivors. 8 is a another beast entirely. If it wasn't for the massive amount of BP you get for playing as survivor I don't think it's worth playing at all.
Like how often do you actually see people looping in this game mode? I swear nearly every survivor I see get chased just takes the killers on a world tour of the generators to assure the most possible disruption to their team's objectives. -
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3988443#Comment_3988443
See, there's the difference, you are talking about criticism, which is fine. But "toxicity" is a very specific term which generally is about someones behavior. I.E calling you racial slurs at the end of the game.
My main point is simple though. If you feel some type of playstyle or "strategy" is "toxic" then you should be complaining to the developers that allow it to happen, not the players who use it. The players who use it are just doing what the game allows them to do.
The problem here is that you're using "toxicity" as meaning abusive behavior. Toxicity in gaming doesn't have a rigid definition, but generally describes a person who causes negativity through their words and actions.
Choosing to play a game in a way that is known to make that game miserable for the other players would in fact be toxic behavior. It being allowed is irrelevant.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3988365#Comment_3988365
You don't know what that player was thinking. You don't know if they were or were not doing something, or what their plan was. It could have been that they felt bad about the DC and were giving you all chance to escape. Maybe they went afk, and you all just read into it too much. Maybe they thought that was the best way to secure the win. You have no idea.
The point is though, you immediately went to the "well he tunneled" argument or "well he slugged and didn't pick up what a loser". Again, playing the video game is not toxic. If i play a fighting game, and just throw fireballs over and over again, that is not toxic. If my opponent doesn't know how to deal with my throwing fireballs over and over again, and i get the win, that is on my opponent for not knowing how to deal with such a tactic. And, if hypothetically the fireball was just so strong that it was the best move in the game, and i was trying to win, why would i not use the move that statistically gives me the best odds of winning my match? Why would i handicap myself through some fictitious set of rules that the game knows nothing about?
DBD doesn't "know" about tunneling, it doesn't "know" anything. All it knows is, did i win the game, or did i lose?
Ironically, such a complaint you have should again be lodged at the devs. Because we used to have a system that cared about the quality of your matches (not just whether you escaped or got the kill) and they decided to scrap it for this system. So again, you should be pointing your ire toward the devs for allowing such a thing to occur.
I'd guess you are the type of person who would hate playing say MTG, and be mad because "the opponent countered my spell" or "they removed my creature" when those things are literally designed specifically to do that very thing.
That's a really dumb comparison.
First all players in a game of MTG are on an equal playing field. It's a symmetrical game.
Second, you can make decks that are legal to play, but make the game absolutely miserable to play. And its perfectively fine to criticize people who play like that.
Just because you are allowed to do something does not mean you are immune to criticizism or that we cannot have a discussion about it. And it's this toxic attitude of acting like other players don't matter in a multiplayer game that makes these discussions so volatile. You wanna criticize survivors, but think survivors cannot criticize you.
Tunneling early makes the match 1 sided. It immediately snowballs the game in the killer's favor with no catch up for survivors to counter with. And because 1 sided stomp games aren't fun, people don't like them. It's not quantum mechanics, it's fairly easy to understand why people feel so negative about tunneling. You just choose to ignore the community in a community driven game.
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For the OP. I get that you're just venting because getting tunneled out is frustrating. Sorry you had to deal with that.
For the discussion. It's a mix of two factors.
First, the game is so snowbally that it actively encourages tunneling to win.
Second, the role of killer is unfortunately really appealing to the worst kind of players who obsess over winning. As they have no teammates to "throw" the game, and the game is balanced in the killer's favor. These players tend to be extremely toxic. And they tend to revel in how tunneling is unfun for survivors while making bad faith arguments about the survivor role. They don't even seem to like Dead By Daylight as much as it serves as an ego boost for their belief they're an elite gamer.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985551#Comment_3985551
I wouldn't call spooknjukes toxic (camping and tunneling aren't toxic), but his tactics are often pretty lame.
SpookyLoopz is actually pretty good.
But no one deserves threats for calling people out on their actual, verifiable, BS.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985423#Comment_3985423
RC is a god-tier gimp and deserves to have his accounts nuked. The only things he does is rage bait and get absolutely decimated in debates.
Camping and tunneling with the explicit goal of causing frustration and hostility to farm for youtube clicks is absolutely toxic.
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While it's obvious that doxxing and threats over a video game are way too far.
I genuinely believe anybody who is making a career off trying to make video games as miserable and unfun as possible should get the Tyler1 experience and be permanently banned until they can prove they'll stop.
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A 1v1 standoff requires both players willing participation. You can choose to end the staff off at any point.
Your opponent should not be forced to forfeit the stand off because it's convenient for you.
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Running 3 perks for what is essentially Dead Hard that only works after healing a survivor doesn't seem particularly overpowered
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As per the Michael Mori Locker stand off. Either player can choose to end this stand off.
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Wiggling punishes the killer for making poor choices. It does not reward you for making poor choices.
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@Coordi said:
Streetwise does not meet the criteria for a Kill Switch. It sucks to have to say that that plainlyt, as the last thing I want to do is minimize player concerns or frustrations. The team is aware, it's being monitored, but it is not breaking the game.
In my opinion, the bug being very easy to do (equip streetwise, open a chest, loot item repeatedly) and how fast information is spreading about it should be considered for Killswitch.
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As a killer the unhook is valuable information. If you haven't started a new chase yet you at least know where 2 survivors are.
So if the killers are B-lining for the hook its likely that the other 2 were in hiding and never took chase.
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My guess is it will work like a reversal of anti-camp where a meter fills while the killer is far away and if the meter is full a survivor can get up.
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They've done this before where something is overpowered or underpowered and says it's intended, then later change it saying it's a bug.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963991#Comment_3963991
Hostage survivor? Be more specific if you are bodyblocked in the corner then having 3 crows first like 10 second will make you loose colision, if you are al slugged you can abandon, if you are last two one on hook second phase and second survivor downedyou can abandon so what hostage you mean?
I'm really confused as to how you read my comment stating that the abandon feature was added to stop hostage situations and somehow thought responding "you can't hold them hostage there's an abandon feature" was necessary.
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Technically speaking survivors needed a feature to get out when being held hostage as you cannot do anything to end the match until the bleed timer ends. Where as a killer you can force survivors to leave. They cannot hold you hostage.
But I don't see any harm in letting killers abandon once the exit gates open if they feel the match is lost.
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@BoonRainDice said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963035#Comment_3963035
No, she is not the hardest. She is hard at first but she is all just about muscle memory and knowing the distances of your blink. Once you master (not hard) your blink teleport range and learn how to tell mindgames from survivors during match its easy mode then.
You're describing the process of learning as if it's a counter argument. "Cracking the enigma code isn't difficult once you learn how to do it."
Nurse is objectively the hardest killer to play because she does not play by the same rules of every other character in the game.
A player taking the time and effort to master her mechanics does not magically make her an easy killer.
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WhySpace sounds like a 2006 sitcom knockoff of MySpace