kyogul
kyogul
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as someone else said the solution really is get in a swf or die in solo queue
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@MikaKim said:
The fact this forum continually fails to even distinguish between swf and soloQ tells you all you need to know. That is, its not a good future for soloQ.
The devs have been feeding soloQ players to killers for a long time at this point. It certainly wasn't like that at release.
As a high MMR player its regularly 4k after 4k for killers.
The reality is you just wont escape as a soloq survivor anymore. So if you're basing your fun off that, you won't have any. You have to either get lucky with a bunch of other great soloQ players and have an average killer or just play for hatch.
That's what sucks and I don't really get what I'm doing wrong since it seems like most others are having fun, or at least more fun than I do.
When I play killer for example, I can get a 0k but get 8 hooks and I can still enjoy the game very heavily and just as much as if I was to get a 4k.
But dying because of teammates being selfish or bellends just sucks, people don't seem to have decent manners when it comes to playing and just outright leave no matter what you did for them in the trial. I constantly get left to die on hook despite how well I do on gens or chase and it's infuriating
What sucks is that despite me being a much better killer, I find survivor more fun to play, but it really is significantly more upsetting to play as well and if I would play 25 games, only maybe 3 would be decent.
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@Brimp said:
Not really bad advice. It's the exact same as a new semester starting and you get randomly assigned groups for a project. You don't know if you're gonna get the 2 smartest kids in class, 2 that just talk the entire time and ignore work, or just a mixture of both. In all just don't expect to do well 90% of the time in solo queue cause we all know mmr is just a hot mess that doesn't work.
Not really the same. I always expected the worst for group projects to the point where I just did the entire assignment for everyone in the group because I wanted control over the quality and didn't want to rely on anyone to finish the project as I got matched with people I didn't think were reliable.
The problem is, in DBD you can't do the entire project for everyone. You can't do all five gens, save everyone and heal everyone, run the killer for five gens, and then escape.
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@Hex_Llama said:
People mean different things when they say this. In a context where the survivor player is complaining that they feel like they only have a 20% chance to win, and that isn't enough for them, saying, "Don't expect to win every time!" doesn't make sense, since the complaint wasn't that they wanted to win every time -- just a greater portion than 20%.
If the advice is, "The game isn't balanced right now, so, if you play solo, you just have to accept that you have less chance to win and try to be at peace with it until the balance changes," that makes more sense, though the situation still sucks.
That's honestly the issue--I'm not mad about not winning every single game, it is just upsetting to not be able to have even a 20% chance at winning. If I play 20 games of a survivor I expect to escape less than five of them in solo queue, and that's being a bit generous. It's not unrealistic for me to say that all 20 can be lost in a row in solo queue
Like this last game I had. Bot billy and he could not down me in chase, always had to leave me despite me being in weak loops. Teammates went down like bots. They also went down in basement. I tried to save them and ended up getting smacked and also put in basement despite two more gens needing to get done. Like what am I supposed to do there?
A game like that is basically how 90% of my games go at best
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@ImBrakingBike said:
In my personal experience (I play a lot of SoloQ), I enter a match not necessarily expecting to escape. My main objectives are (right after rank reset) not de-pipping (worst case scenario) and, if I feel the match had a good start, I raise the bar to actually getting +1 or +2 pips (even if I die). That's my main objective because I need the BPs from the monthly rank reset.
As a second objective, I always go for challenges from every tome I can. I'm running out of things to do because I need to unlock more survivors but I'm focussing on killers now, but I try to always have something to do to get me the extra BPs.
An escape is always welcome, but honestly knowing how Solo Q works, I try not to expect much from the matches.
Pre-MMR, I found pipping to be difficult as well. Back then I was doing what I would consider optimal play; stealthing a lot more (avid Spine chill user), genrushing, and saving, but a lot less interaction than I get now. I escaped a fair amount more but still majority losses mostly due to teammates being bad and me having to baby sit them. I found it really hard to pip up every game/every other game considering how chaotic it was and how generally bad teammates were; I thought the pip system of basically doing minimum two gens/two minute chases/two totems/two saves or heals to get a pip to be unrealistic
It's one thing to be displeased by not escaping every match but still winning a fair amount and then the inverse; losing pretty much every match and rarely ever escaping because of how bad your teammates are or how selfish they are. There have been so many games where I have gotten left on first hook because a teammate erroneously opens the gate and just leaves, and the other two don't even attempt to save me when they can (i.e. they're healthy, not against a Bubba/insta down killer/no ed, etc.)
I don't have any recent gameplay, maybe if I run across some games I'll record something. most I have is from like a year or so ago but I've improved a fair amount since then, plus in said video I was in a swf, which isn't indicative of solo queue woes.
@Sonzaishinai said:
The advice isn't "don't expect to win"
It's "don't always expect to win"
A subtle but big difference
When you're not escaping 90% of your matches, "don't expect to win" seems more adequate than "don't always expect to win" which implies you win/escape a fair amount
Idk like for example my MMR is pretty solid on killer, I almost never lose a game (my definition of losing is getting less than majority of either individual hooks and/or less than a 2k, most times being 3k~4k) and I do lose here and there technically by survivors escaping but I don't complain about it because of how often I win; I'd say I 3k/4k 85% of my games and the remaining 15% I lose, either moderately or drastically. I don't always win for killer but it's not a bother because of how often I do win, which in part the fun of games is winning. For survivor it's more like an 85% lose rate, 15% chance at escaping.
@ryseterion said:
Instead of that just say: expect the worse, but hope for the best. When lowering someones expectations to be below average, everything is better than it could have been so its ok in the end
Lowering my standards basically just would mean I would outright not play survivor since it's already low enough now and if it got any lower I might as well just never touch survivor
It's one thing not escaping, another to not even have the chance to get into good chases. Bot teammates pre dropping pallets and wasting resources or I have to risk myself to save someone else on hook because teammates aren't doing what they're supposed to do
@Tsulan said:
Can´t remember a single time that this kind of advice was given to new solo survivors.
But plenty of times to "new" killers.
On a side note, if you need help with solo survivor, hook me up. I´m sure i can give you some advice if needed.
I think I'm a pretty good teammate, just that perhaps my playstyle isn't up to snuff with the meta. I'm very capable of just genrushing/stealthing/being as uninteractive as possible and being selfish and just leaving the second I get the chance to, but I 1) like to be chased 2) like saving teammates, especially ones who ran the killer for a long time or did me a solid like took protection hits for me 3) just rather not play M1 simulator and sit on gens, so to be quite frank not sure what advice I could even ask (not to say there is none to be asked)
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2735557#Comment_2735557
Honestly it’s probably because people couldn’t tell the difference. Again if it was being used for racist reasons (which it was in some cases) I don’t see the need to keep it especially since bubba has other cosmetics now.
Of course bubba doesn’t care about skin colour but people using the mask for racist reasons did
That's horrible reasoning. It doesn't really matter how people used it. If you watched the video by I believe sistakaren who made a compilation of interviews of black content creators talking about it, many flat out said that they thought it was black face from the beginning, rather than this is a cosmetic that is being used to resemble black face. It's extremely dishonest to say BHVR added black face when that's not the case. Black face is make up/some sort of styling meant to make a mockery out of a black person. This is not how the Bubba mask is used even in the instance of racism. Extremely poor logic on the people who proposed the situation and poor behaviour of them to label it as black face in that way.
And who the hell cares if people are using it for malicious reasons when it's not going to change the behaviour itself? Did you not hear about the many people who got targeted for wearing pride charms? And it still happens. Should that be removed since the pride charm is being used maliciously to target people who are (presumably) LGBT?
The whole advocacy of removing the mask is not only going to not help the situation but probably make it worse. Someone in the video, I believe sistakaren herself, even said this. If so...why do it? Why not put an emphasis on having BHVR harshly punish racists who harass people of colour?
I don't blame BHVR for removing the mask though, they simply did what was requested of them and it was a PR move. I don't care about the mask being removed as I never used it but the reasoning on the behalf of the proposers is dumb. It's not a partial win; it's a loss and they now have egg on their face and they painted the target on their backs with a more vibrant colour because of the idiocy of their advocacy.
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@Minecraft said:
a good one? you can't just loop him, you have to take plenty of 50/50. it is by far the killer with the most unfair hits, which doesn't help. you really don't want to give him the first hit, but of course someone else is going to do that for you.
of course he actually hits you before you see his swing animation starting, so even dead hard is a risk.
That's what sucks about going against Oni in solo queue; regardless of whether or not you know how to play against him, you'll always get teammates who don't and will feed him his power.
The 180 flick doesn't help either.
It's always felt like unless the Oni is brand new, that you really are defenceless against an Oni and that's always sucked.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
Definitely not impossible, but very reliant on your positioning when you get seen. If you're in a dead zone then no, you're dead on sight. If you're near several tiles you can easily chain together, or somewhere you can break LOS, or somewhere with lots of sharp corners forcing him to not Demon Dash your way, then he definitely can be played around.
It's a matter of where you are when you're seen, which can be alleviated by good game sense letting you know when you're most likely to get chased and moving into place accordingly.
Of course, vs an Oni in his power, the best thing you can do is not be found at all.
That's the thing that sucks that I realised but was hoping there was some solution. Of course when I hear him in power I'm cautious but stealthing is so ######### boring. And when he's approaching you, you basically have to work with whatever is within a 20 metre radius of you or less, which while good positioning is generally something to want to do at all times, it's often times where gens aren't and gens need to get done.
Breaking LOS definitely has helped but many maps are open as hell so there's not really much to do
So seems like there's no looping an Oni in almost all cases and rather just stealthing. How disappointing lol
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@Phasmamain said:
He is hard to loop in his power but not impossible. It’s pretty much a billy with more control so looping tight loops with sharp corners is your best bet. Plays you can stealth out his blood fury if he uses it without a survivor in his sight
That's my go to method generally since in solo queue his power is unavoidable and when he sees you you pretty much have only what's within like 20 metres of you (or less) to work with
But I was thinking there's no way he's practically impossible to loop, especially with good add ons and/or some amount of game sense. Of course if you are on a pallet heavy map you can just chuck pallets but you don't really get to go where you want against an Oni in his power since you only take one hit and not two
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2705588#Comment_2705588
Yes, it would at least reduce the odds of people endlessly complaining about camping, and selfish players, because if you budged MMR over to care more about general performance/total hooks and team play, then you're at least removing the rewards from those things.
Now, following on from that, if you try to improve the game balance, do you want your game balance to be fixed around a 1v1-kill-vs-escape measurement of MMR? No, not really.
I don't think it would fix any problems immediately, nor necessarily change gameplay in a big way, but it'd be a better starting point to measure and balance around.
And I don't think anyone can honestly say it's not stupid that the work to go into escaping is a team effort, but the rewards and penalties are all solo.
What you're advocating for isn't skill-based matchmaking, it's more so balancing-matchmaking to encourage particular behaviours for fairness but not skill. Camping in the right decisions is skill as there is a time and place for it and it can turn the game over, and the skill in that aspect comes from just having decent to good game knowledge, although there's really no execution skill involved in it. Co-operativeness also isn't necessarily the best either; people split up on gens and barely interact with each other when they're going hard in the paint trying to get out as survivors as an optimal strategy to apply pressure on their end as much as possible. While I do agree individual hooks is more reflective than kills, as it tells you how many chases you won, it's still not optimal and subsequently not very much reflecting the totality of skill in this game, which is founded upon doing things that produce winning.
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@Tsulan said:
The sbmmr just revealed how unbalanced the game is. No one can claim now, that they get non stop 4ks or that the game is killer sided.
So it collides with certain people's agendas, and they blame the matchmaking instead of admitting that the game is unbalanced.
######### finally someone who understands the god damn core issue
I actually thought I was the only one seeing how many people in this thread literally do not see such an obvious point
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2705574#Comment_2705574
Even if it might end up in the same spot at the top end, prioritising more than a solo survivor's ability to survive to the end and get out, and a killer's "the number of dead people is literally the only important factor" could have important effects lower down the ladder.
Can you demonstrate possibilities of how that would be better though?
Because down the ladder you have those same optimal strategies done, albeit not in the best fashions and done unintentionally due to being new and not having many perks. And at the top you have the same thing + game knowledge.
The middle isn't going to benefit from additional factors that assess skill in MMR because it's basically a spectrum of people not knowing what you're doing to optimal game playstyles to whatever degrees, intentionally or unintentionally.
The issue is game balance, not MMR system. There is nothing you can do to a matchmaking system, even if one is made completely new, to make it even noticeably better than current MMR. People are simply saying "skill-based matchmaking system" like robots without knowing what they're talking about or being able to talk through it even half properly
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No I'm also one of the people who knew it was going to be a shite show as well but yet some bellends in this community didn't realise it and kept on asking for a new matchmaking system. And we got this. And now they think some irrelevant tweaks to "judge skill" is going to do anything different (it won't).
Thank you lot for making the game worse by not knowing what you're asking for
@anarchy753 said:
Two reasons.
One, you assume the community is single-minded. Many of us never wanted an MMR system in the first place, and now that it's implemented in a really terrible way we feel justified in criticising it more than ever.
Two, because they promised a skill-based system, then chose a method which completely disregards skill.
One, I've said in multiple ways that I'm talking about a specific person rather than everyone who complains and dislikes current MMR.
Two, a skill-based system isn't a solution. Because the optimal play in this game isn't skill-based.
A large factor of people's fun in games is to win. The optimal strategies in these game are brainless (pre-dropping pallets, holding W and almost never looping a structure while your team genrush / no ed, camping to force stages). We can use comp as an example that include some of the most renowned players in terms of skill and they all do this to win. What does that mean? Brainless, skill-less strategies are the optimal way to win.
You can deduce that in a matchmaking system, regardless if it's more detailed or not to assess skill, the higher your MMR goes, the more you'll see this sort of playstyle because people with a decent to large amount of game knowledge know this is the best way to guarantee wins. And people do this because they want to have fun, because winning is fun to more people than not. Further meaning even in a mythical system that accurately pairs people of equal skill together, the higher your rating goes, the more you will see playstyles that do not reflect skill even by people who are very skilled at the game.
Giving you the same product you have now.
You lot are literally asking for a system that gives you the exact same thing now.
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@ChurchofPig said:
MMR is an example of "It sounded like a good idea until it was tested."
After it was tested a lot of people realized that it wasn't healthy and started asking the devs not to continue working on mmr, but the devs didn't listen.
In a system based on skill, it results to the precise same thing we have now in high MMR because the best players in the world still play in an extremely shallow way (predropping pallets, camping with no ed to get stages, holding W) because that is the optimal play. And a huge factor in why people play games in the first place is to win. On top of that the games are just going to be as difficult to win. The main ire of MMR comes from the fact that people can't win as easily and it's demotivating. So how on earth would a skill-based matchmaking system do any better than what's going on now?
Despite this very obvious logic that was present even before MMR was officially implemented, people still requested and are still requesting for a skill-based matchmaking system but don't realise that it not only already exist but there are no impactful improvements to be made in terms of the MMR logic, because the optimal gameplay is accessible to everyone of any skill type in this game.
It's a cycle and it's not putting focus on the actual problem which is the game balance. But yet people don't realise that and it's lowkey making people look dumb that they're complaining about the current MMR system and arguing for a skill-based matchmaking system/something similar and don't realise that you are going to get the same exact result with an MMR system with more skill-based factors (individual hooks, time spent looping + any objectives your teammates did while you looped the killer, time spent alive in a trial, how fast you end chases etc.)
@GeneralV said:
I never asked for MMR, so technically I have every right to complain.
At least judging by your logic.
People can do what they want. I never said no one can complain or they don't have the right to. I'm pointing out that they are complaining about the precise thing that they yelled at BHVR to do for years and are pretending that they didn't request it. On top of also not realising that any popular improvements to the MMR logic will not do anything of substance, in addition to the most important part that their focus is on the wrong thing, which is the game balance.
No matchmaking system is going to be any better than pre-MMR or current MMR until game balance is fixed. This was a very obvious fact, yet people still demanded a new matchmaking system instead of advocating more heavily for game balance first. And they're still doing the same thing.
Basically, I'm calling out people who complain about MMR in this specific way (and a popular way at that) for being extremely dumb in their logic and also calling them out and showcasing how they are responsible for MMR being implemented in the first place. BHVR simply gave the community what they asked for and now they're trying to hide their hands under the table and play stupid and wonder where the idea of MMR came from.
@Warcrafter4 said:
The issue is that people asked for a NEW Match making system.
What we got is the game regressing to an OLD Match Making system and even dev admitted terrible system where it only cares about Kills/Escapes.
We had this system in the past as it was one of the earliest Match Making systems which failed once already because it couldn't determine skill.
So I have no idea why they thought bringing it back was a good idea.
This post isn't about me advocating the MMR system is good and people shouldn't be complaining about it; there are many valid complaints, and I don't think MMR should be in the game right now.
The focus of this post is to call attention to how people like this (and there are hoards of them, not hard to come by) who complain and complained about MMR are not only responsible for why it's in the game, but how their mythical idea of an MMR system based on skill results in the same exact thing as we have now.
Optimal gameplay in this game involves things such as almost never looping a jungle gym and playing extremely safe while your team genrush, predropping pallets, holding W / no ed, camping to force stages, and so on, which are playstyles accessible regardless of skill. The best players in the game play this way in order to win in comp settings. A huge factor of people's enjoyment of a game is to win. Therefore as we can see, the higher you go in current MMR, you get people who play like this in high MMR and it's not reflective of skill. In a skill-based matchmaking system that pairs you with people who are actually very skilled when you're in high MMR, you get...the same exact playstyle. Because in order to win you play in a way that doesn't reflect skill.
Current MMR is shallow because the optimal gameplay of this game is shallow. That's not going to change by tweaking current MMR. It's going to change by addressing game balance. This mythical skill-based matchmaking system would only """work""" if it means throwing the game. An example: skilled survivors going against a good Billy not pre dropping pallets, holding W, or playing extremely safe, and doing gens extremely slowly (if at all) to allow more game time for chases. They are literally throwing the game, heavily decreasing their chances of winning, and giving him more opportunity to curve them and down them, decreasing their chances of winning. The optimal play to heavily increase your chances of winning is to to play safe, genrush, and pre drop pallets. Hence why comp is best described as professional rank 20 gameplay and furthermore how current MMR is best described as wannabe-comp/pub scrims.
What is the community doing instead? Crying about MMR and drawing attention away from the main problem being game balance, not MMR and demanding an alternative matchmaking system that results in the same exact thing that they're complaining about.
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@MrPeanutbutter said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2705261#Comment_2705261
I feel the same way. For the amount of time it took to develop this MMR system, to come up with a product that just scores you based on escapes or kills is pretty disappointing. They could have literally just used the pip system instead and it would have given a better result
That's kind of implying that the MMR system isn't working well in terms of giving people difficult games, which isn't true.
I agree the MMR system's requirements are shallow, but people are overlooking that optimal gameplay is also shallow, so it doesn't matter. An ideal system that magically pairs you up with survivors of a similar experience, as you progress with higher MMR, is going to give the same result as now. Because the most skilled survivors in high MMR are going to play in a way that is very shallow and barely reflects skill, because this game's optimal playstyle is shallow, just like the MMR system.
I really don't understand why people have a hard time understanding that.
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@DemonDaddy said:
I think players were open to mmr with the belief that proper balancing around the data it provided would follow.
What we got was a shallow system based on the end results completely disregarding the play experience.
Furthermore the changes we are getting focus primarily on the lowest bracket of the community which only further creates/enforces disparities the more experienced players find disheartening.
Anyone who has been around this community and game for even a moderate amount of time know that the balancing thing was not going to happen any time soon. Yet people complained about pre-MMR matchmaking and demanded a system to pair them with similarly-skilled survivors and heavily implying they want more difficult games.
Yes the requirements for MMR are extremely shallow. But as I said before, adding factors that are more indicative of skill isn't going to solve the issue. People are still going to get more difficult games than they want, which is what they are primarily complaining about for MMR.
Those sorts of changes aren't anything new, though. And I do agree, MMR makes the imbalance of the game more obvious. But the community got what they asked for.
What people really should be complaining about is not the MMR system but how optimal gameplay in this game does not involve skill. Because whether you have this system or a more detailed-and-skill-reflecting system (whether it be called MMR or not), you will get the same amount of difficult games.
@StarLost said:
Because an improvement is not perfection.
It's better than ranks were, at least at my MMR - but I still get too many games that oscillate between me facing off against a group of <100 hour players and stomping and 1000 hour monster SWFs that stomp me.
It's also frustrating for very high MMR players, because their matches will be quite sweaty.
Look, I get the complaints about MMR. A lot are valid. This isn't a thread about why complaining about MMR is bad. It's more so trying to point out that almost everyone who complaints about MMR are being airheaded and are complaining about the wrong things.
People keep saying MMR is bad because it doesn't reflect skill and yet they don't realise optimal game play in this game doesn't reflect skill almost at all. And on top of that even if you have a system that had more factors to reflect the few things that were indicative of skill, it would still give them difficult games like they have now. And they'd complain still.
Even with the erroneous focus the lot of the community are harping on, their suggestions aren't fruitful nor will fix their problems. Because as we can see in comp where you have even a higher saturation of people who have more experience and subsequently skill, it's the same issue. It's why an accurate description of comp is "professional rank 20 gameplay". Because playing optimally in this game is not skillful and doesn't change in almost all circumstances no matter how much experience you have.
That ideal system that magically matches you up with people of similar experience/skill as you is still going to result in the exact result of this current MMR system and you're going to get the same type of survivors. Because no matter how skilled you are, optimal gameplay does not involve nearly as much skill.
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@JoByDaylight said:
The community asked for a better matchmaking system. A complicated skill based matchmaking system they used 1,5 years to develop could’ve been ok. At least we had hope. But, the devs being the devs it seems they actually spent 1,5 hours of thinking through it before launching it…
It is definitely not what I was hoping for. I’ve been one of many optimists, but not anymore.
The thing is though, people are primarily complaining about how sweaty DBD is and how fatiguing the sweat fest games can be, not that the games aren't hard, which them getting so many difficult games to the point of complaining (presuming high MMR) is a sign MMR is working (whenever it does work, but obviously more often than non-MMR).
There is also the fact that adding in a more complex system isn't going to solve the problem either. The games are still going to be difficult and you're still going to get the same type of survivors. There's also the fact that optimal gameplay in this game (especially on survivor side) is not skillful at all. Predropping pallets, holding W, camping with no ed. We can use the comp scene as an example, since high MMR games are basically wannabe-comp games/pub scrims anyway. Obviously you've got way above-average players in that sort of setting, and some of the most renowned ones in terms of skill. Yet, it's why a description I heard of comp DBD is accurate: professional rank 20 gameplay. Because non-skillful gameplay is rewarded.
This was very obvious without MMR, yet people demanded a system that paired people up in accordance to skill and/or difficulty (difficulty is a better measure for DBD). So they got what they asked for.
@Marc_123 said:
As of now it "feels" worse than the old system. In my opinion i have far less balanced matches i play.
Yep that's how it's going to be. High MMR games make the imbalance more obvious than it was. And this was very obvious--at least to me--pre-MMR and yet you had hoards of people basically asking for a system which is current MMR. While the requirements for MMR are obviously shallow, it doesn't matter as the end result is still there: you get more difficult games more often.
@Phasmamain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2705266#Comment_2705266
It doesn’t work because it doesn’t match people of similar skill. Escapes and kills cannot be the only metric to determine wins if you want to make a good system
Let’s look at the emblem system. Flawed I will admit but it took into account chase time, unhooks etc. And for killer it took into account hooking each survivor once, penalised camping etc. Primitive but better than MMR
That's a gameplay issue. I'm going to reference what I said above about how optimal gameplay in this game is basically professional rank 20 gameplay.
A system based on skill, such as how long you survive in a game/how long you last in chase | how fast you down people, how many hooks (not hook stages) you get, etc. being things that get you points in MMR which is more reflective of skill does absolutely nothing to solve the main complaints about MMR. People are still going to get difficult games that are going to fatigue them over time.
I reiterate again. The primary ire of MMR is not because people are complaining about not being matched with similarly-skilled players, as that's already evidenced to not be true because of the obvious increase of difficult games. The primary ire is because it's too many difficult games. What 98% of the people in the community who complain about MMR don't realise is that they're subconsciously complaining that optimal gameplay in this game doesn't involve skill. And you don't have to play the game very long to realise that, and yet pre-MMR they asked for a system to scale skill/difficulty and match people accordingly.
They got what they asked for: more difficult games. Arguably more skillful ones (at least in game knowledge) as they can't win as often as before / have to try harder than before.
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2705255#Comment_2705255
As I said the devs spent a year and a half testing it. The common consensus was that the system didn’t work. The devs added it anyway so people are complaining. Pretty simple
It's not really simple, and you didn't answer the question either. Didn't work in what?
@Exxodus21 said:
Asking for matchmaking to be fixed =/= asking for an MMR system.
Then what's your solution?
Because people asked for the random matchmaking to scale to give them teammates of a similar skill level. MMR does that way more often than the prior system.
@VaJaybles said:
I remember the same, however I don't think this was the MMR system people were expecting. I don't really play games with MMR so I'm not sure what they were hoping for, but I know this ain't it Chief.
The complaints about MMR are valid, but I just find it really funny how people are acting like this isn't what they asked for, but yet none of them can provide a single solution that would make the system better.
They asked for a system to scale difficulty and match people accordingly and they got it. Now they don't like it and are pretending they didn't yap in BHVR's ear for this for years
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@Phasmamain said:
Because we had multiple tests showing that the system didn’t work but they added it anyway
Didn't work in what? As I said MMR system and its requirements isn't perfect or near it but it obviously does what it was intended to do as it's giving people harder games. The entire purpose of MMR is to scale difficulty and pair people up as best as possible accordingly. People aren't complaining that MMR isn't doing that, they're complaining about the hard games they're receiving.
And then there's the question about what is the alternative? It's a black and white situation in DBD matchmaking; you get random matchmaking or you get a system that produces more sweat squads and killers like it is now. There's no in between. People complained about the former, all suggested something like the latter, and when they got what they asked for they started to play coy.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2669407#Comment_2669407
I'd put a lot of killers ahead of her, but to each their own. I think people are massively overrating her chase potential. Still day 1 though.
Like which killers?
From what I can think of:
- Hag = a team with a decent amount of sense will harass her traps and know not to go down near basement, really starving her of any pressure
- Oni, Plague = can easily be made into an m1 only killer as survivors have to give him his power / starve you of your pressure by hyper cleansing
- Hillbilly = his power is too high maintenance to manage and takes too much time to try and mind game at the lot of loops in this game
I forgot about some killers, but I can't think of anyone else except Twins who are stronger than Artist on average. The thing about The Artist is that you can't starve her of her power nor can you really counterplay it very easily compared to some of the killers I listed above
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@JexxTron said:
She is creepy in a creepy way. But I found I can lose the crows by going in a locker.
lowkey this is going to encourage people to run iron maiden on her lol especially if they do this in chase
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@[Deleted User] said:
Completely meh vs really good players. Survivors are already catching on to the fact that you have plenty of time to simply run away from the tile when she goes to set up her birds due to how slow and clunky she is during the set up.
Better to be meh than actually terrible
People with any decent amount of game sense know that in the vast majority of cases that survivors are going to win if they really want to and/or try against any killer
But she still is one of the better killers out there. Other than Blight and Nurse of course, I can't see any other killer comparing except Spirit and that's debatable to an extent if Spirit is better.
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@Brokenbones said:
Why are people calling this 'good'? I don't get it.
Like yeah you'll down them eventually but doesn't it take like 3/4 frenzy hits, which will carry a 20 second cooldown and the fatigue every time meaning you'll be waiting 60/80 seconds at minimum to do this? If every chase with a survivor lasts 60/80-ish seconds that's hilarious
I'm not saying I like it, I don't but Legion's main strength is about saving time having to injure people normally in chase so why would you pick a playstyle that actively wastes your time a lot more
You aren't going to be using Frenzy to down people. You're using it to injure and subsequently activate Blood Favour. The cooldown without add ons is like five seconds for Feral Frenzy.
Blood Favour has no cool down anymore. It simply re-activates upon injure health state of a survivor
The "cool down" you are referring to is in regards to how long the pallets are unable to be used, not how long until the perk can work again.
This build isn't wasting your time at all. It seems like you don't play Legion much, if at all.
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@Vampwire said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2592338#Comment_2592338
i understand it i just find it funny that u think lithe is prevalent enough to be a problem
ever since a few tomes ago that i think involved using lithe, it's become used increasingly more in my experience to the point where i see it significantly more than any other exhaustion perk except dead hard
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@Vampwire said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2591964#Comment_2591964
my mans is really complaining about lithe
you really are complaining when you don't comprehend the analogy huh.
the annoyance of bamboozle and blood favour is that you get outplayed with no skill, i.e. killer vaults a window and/or hits you (in this case, legion hits you with an uncounterable power that takes no skill) to activate blood favour and you have no resources nearby to use. such skill right?
Lithe you gain a nice amount of distance and (partially) reset chase because you vaulted a window. It's just as skill-less as bamboozle / blood favour.
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@Rogue11 said:
Wait till you play against one running Bamboozle, Blood Favor, and Undying. Very interactive gameplay.
Now you guys know how it feels to go against multiple iron wills and dead hards/lithe's
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@Kira15233 said:
M2 fakes are less hated than spirit stand still mind game BECAUSE we can see the action veing cancelled, as for spirit stand still trick, there is no way to know if she's faking it or not, idle animation stays the same
That's not true. Her animation resets every time she begins to phase and it's pretty much a fool proof trick. It's just not a widely popularised method but it's been known for an extremely long time and is pretty widespread in comp.
Regardless if you're a type of person who thinks that comp should be some sort of measurement or not, the reality is that it exists and in general stand still mind games are less powerful than M2 fakes
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@Mercês said:
I feel the only people who complain about Spirit's stand still mind game are the ones who run into her face instead of breaking LOS and getting distance of her. 🤡
Honestly. Generally I think stand still mind games are much weaker than M2 fakes considering there's actually a method to pretty much always tell if a Spirit is phasing or not, even disregarding the upcoming changes regarding her phasing.
@Bennett_They1Them said:
it costs time and/or movement speed for all of them. spirit just stands still at a pallet.
(also, wraith should probably on that list, since the Bing bong is the most grievous offender for m1 fakes)
Honestly, I don't have a problem, but that's how I see it.
@botrax said:
All those fake m2 have a cost most of those cost is distance. The spirit stand still mind game most of the time is the survivor not knowing ehat to do because they dont know her cd or cant do a read to save their life
The thing is though, survivors also lose distance as well or they put themselves at risk. You run in a (relatively) straight line? You're going to get hit with an M2 as they're carrying it. You zig zag trying to dodge a potential M2? You lose distance and you get M1'd.
Spirit's stand still mind games is actually generally less effective than M2 fakes considering what I said in this response as well as above to Mercês.
@Nayru said:
^ most good survs i run into on spirit just start walking away if i stand still and uninjured/iron will, otherwise beeline to the next loop
potatoes that get grabbed off the pallet are the ones that tend to kill themselves on hook or dc afterwards, sometimes they deal with it though
Personally I sometimes bait the Spirit to try and swing at me by walking somewhat close to her if I think she's faking it. Not close enough to get hit (and if there's a resource nearby to protect me). Normally most Spirits don't bother standing still twice in a row and they start phasing the next time they're still at a pallet or something
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@Shaped said:
To be fair some other games have similar problems.
Gta for example even on consoles people use godmode in almost every lobby. Not a problem for me tho since I am not pvping there.
The issue with DBD is that though hacks were always just as available as they are now, it was never an issue in until MMR came on. Since MMR, you see hackers every day or every other day.
The other issue too is not them simply hacking in the game to win, but also holding the game hostage. They force you to dc which increases your dc penalty and they do that intentionally.
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@Elena said:
Yeah there's some really disturbing message that pops up when you try and report them, it left me feeling shaken when I first encountered it.
Are they able to just write anything in that pop up message?
I've heard/seen hackers able to type in any other player's name in end game chat/use all perks/freeze game/hold game hostage etc but never being able to block someone from reporting.
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@Rogue11 said:
It's not just seeing the killer over walls that gives an advantage. Its also a massive amount of general map information. You can be working on a gen inside a loop, where your view would be very limited on native resolution, and be able to see every other tile nearby, what pallets/windows are available, where other gens are located to avoid a 3 gen, seeing if the killer is moving your way from well outside their terror radius, etc.
This is stuff that is normally only gained through a lot of game sense, moving around the map throughout the match, perks, or maybe from comms.
But yea, keep lying that it's super situational and just looks better.
You are aware that stretched res doesn't show anything that's not present on native, right? It's not giving you more resolution, it's stretching what's already available. Meaning those videos trying to showcase you being able to see the killer over loops in stretched res, you can do the same thing in native, but you have to move your camera more. The benefit of stretched res is having to move your camera less.
You're also being dramatic about stretched res. You don't get an aerial view of the map by stretched res and you still have to move about it just like on native to see information such as: nearby windows, what gens are nearby, etc. Even on bare maps like Sheltered Woods.
You're kind of the only one lying. It's very easy to tell the people who cry about stretched resolution who have close to no experience with it or absolutely none.
I really just find it funny how people act like stretched resolution is a human right's violation but they're also the same people who use fps uncap, filters, and so forth.
also FYI: Console can use stretched res too. It's just harder as there is less customisation and it's more hardware limited by monitor settings. For the most part it's not "cheating" or exploiting as both parties can do it. Just like climbable rocks aren't exploiting or cheating as both parties (killer and survivor) can do it, not just one role. What console can't do, however, is fps uncap, which gives a gameplay advantage. You lot aren't ready to admit you're cheating using that, though.
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@Fobbo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2541088#Comment_2541088
Imagine defending something that is against the rules
If it's against the rules then it's an offence, meaning that you would get punished for using it. So you're lying about it being "against the rules".
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@SomberNokk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2543304#Comment_2543304
Hmm well if you reread what I said I didn't say it made the game easy mode I was referring to the survivor side as the easy mode... Also now offer a counterpoint to how you don't gain an advantage using stretched res.
Not easy mode =/= no advantage
FPS uncap has advantages too but no one wants to admit that, let alone call it an exploit because they want to cherrypick what is and isn't a cheat to make themselves feel better. As well as filters, dpi change, equalisers, and more
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@jokere98 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2543196#Comment_2543196
then what are you gonna say about this?
Exposing also depends on the ghostface's resolution as well. The video failed to mention that though
Otz is nice but has really...######### takes on multiple fronts. Kind of a shame this guy has influence on the community.
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@SomberNokk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2541088#Comment_2541088
Imagine needing an unfair advantage for the easy mode? Get better.
Except it doesn't make the game easy mode. The reality is that if you suck without stretched res you'll suck with it on just as much.
Get better and stop blaming your pitfalls and losses on someone's resolution. This community is so lame that they have to gatekeep what resolution players use and cherrypick what is and what isn't cheating or an exploit. yikes.
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@GannTM said:
Same reason killers bring Hawkins or Autohaven offerings, or Ruin Undying. Both sides are trying to win.
From my experience of almost 2k hours with a pretty decent balance on both sides, you come across substantially more survivors who will bring map offerings to survivor sided maps like Ormond/Badham/Haddonfield than killers who will do so. And a large portion of the time killers do that are like scratch mirror myers on Léry's or Hawkins for example.
Autohaven also really isn't that great of a realm for killers. Wrecker's Yard obviously is generally good as it's a small map but Blood Lodge, Wrestling Place, and Gas Heaven are very survivor sided maps. Wretched Shop being neutral.
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@Elena said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2537955#Comment_2537955
oh I didn't know that
I see the OP was playing Nurse; afaik you can't blink up the rock. You'd have to walk up to it. It's not particularly something that's easy to do either on either role but especially as killer where you have less free time to fool around to do stuff like that.
Video showcasing killers can also get on rocks:
https://youtu.be/Y7ccBVbJqSc?t=63 -
You can chalk this up to the devs not designing him properly to begin with. I do agree the nerfs make him terrible but you're also not looking at it from the perspective of going against it. Unless the Deathslinger is out of range, there's not really counterplay to going against him. You aren't dodging a shot, he simply misses. Meaning if he's good with shots fakes aren't the most effective, even when trying to break LOS (as he can just shoot you when trying to run past a corner).
It's similar to the Spirit nerfs in a way. Both killers had the design of being strong based on unfairness and balancing them out makes them substantially weak as their strengths relied on imbalance rather than strengths.
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@MrCalac123 said:
Disarming traps should come with a difficulty skill check. You are LITERALLY sticking your hand into a bear trap, you deserve to be punished if you mess up!
Considering there are several places you can place a trap and the trap is basically invisible as it clips into the environment, that would be kind of unnecessary.
While there are general strategies to make stepping in a trap unlikely (such as avoiding grass), there are situations where it's not a matter of getting outplayed or making a bad mistake if you step into a trap depending on its placement.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
it's not related to the post at all, i just wanna know if you're having/had a good day?
you're adorable
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@EQWashu said:
The Team is aware of this issue, and the ACM team is working hard on all the reports they receive, but I have no further information than that I'm afraid. Please know we take hacking and cheating very seriously, and people that cheat and/or hack in the game do get banned for doing so.
And I apologize for misunderstanding you in my reply earlier, believing you meant reporting players.
If they're aware of the issue then why is the dc penalty still a thing? It's one thing to hack, another to hold the game hostage, which many hackers especially at high MMR have been doing lately.
If dc penalty was removed the hacking problem would be much more tolerable. But you're literally held captive since this happens multiple times a day and the hackers hold you hostage knowing that when you dc you'll just get increased locked-out times so they make you wait the two hours before the game resets or they make you increase your dc penalty.
I understand reports take a while to process but something needs to be done immediately. Hackers are literally holding players hostage and the victims are being punished with no options to help themselves out.
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There is another issue you didn't talk about in OP.
When people in this community compare DBD to other games, it's basically a death wish. Because they're looking for DBD 2.0 and they go to try out these other games and try their best to put faith in the competition so something can finally "kill" DBD (hint: no other game will; DBD will kill itself) and then the community that came from DBD will suck the life out of it because they want the game to not be itself but DBD 2.0 and seize their support when that doesn't happen.
It's why all the other potential competitors failed. On top of simply not being good enough to compete with DBD in general, DBD's community also played a huge part in their failure. I really don't doubt the same will happen to VHS.
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@solidhex said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2515977#Comment_2515977
:D
you know that stretched in Dbd is a little bit different? There are numerous videos about it on youtube. And it gives you clear advantage over the killer on some loops.
I like leaving this here for the whiners who complain about stretched res (didn't make this, but if you want to pretend I did to try and insult then I'd be happy to take credit)
https://i.imgur.com/mSuP7nX.pngI also don't want to hear about the "it gives advantages" debate when PC players also use uncapped fps which is also an advantage, particularly over console players who can't even change graphic intensity let alone FPS cap. The cherrypicking of what is and what isn't an advantage is beyond ######### in this community.
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@OddProvidence said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2514042#Comment_2514042
Totally false. There are certain builds on certain killers that you can bring to guarantee 4ks by bringing a map. I’m 47-0 (all 4ks) with scratch mirror Myers on indoor maps. You can never have that level of control over the game by playing survivor. I’m 22-0 (all 4ks) with wraits all seeing silent bell build on indoor maps. I’m 30-0 with clowns invigorated all seeing build without even deciding the map. Killer has WAY more tools to dominate the game and it’s not even close. As it should be, this isn’t Feng Min’s t bagging adventures it’s dead by daylight.
This makes absolutely no sense.
Killers have more at their arsenal because they can bring a map. Ok, did you just discover that survivors can do the same thing?
Are you going to want to brag about your non-existent chances of your 4k streak when survivors can bring you to Ormond/Haddonfield/Coldwind/Badham/so forth and they also bring in multiple BNP's, DS/IW/UB/DH/Prove Thyself/Soul Guard all the while maps (or perks) to break any potential totems you have and doing gens at the speed of light before you can do anything substantial?
And I really hope there's either some evidence to that 4k streak, and if it's pre-mmr it's not even to be taken seriously for very obvious reasons. A lot of the people, particularly content creators who tried doing win streaks pre-mmr have already admitted it's impossible to do so with high MMR, including some notable veterans and even some comp players.
Because if we're going down this line of just saying stuff without having to show evidence I'm also going to throw out there I have a 100 continuous escape streak as survivor
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@NomiNomad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2514042#Comment_2514042
I think old DS and old Object were incredibly unfair. I think Dead Hard can be too strong in circumstances, and I'm fine with Iron Will. Not with how it interacts with the buggy sound of this game, but the idea of Iron Will is fine.
Spirit was unfair.
Iron Will is more unfair than Spirit is.
Spirit is one killer, Iron Will is used pretty much on every killer and has the same effect on every killer: free invisibility when LOS is broken.
You not only make no injured noises but no breathing sounds either. Meaning if you're chased inside any structure and the killer breaks LOS of you for even a second you have free invisibility and the killer is not sure if you're there or left. Blood and scratch marks don't disappear instantly and the intensity still takes a little bit of time before it becomes visible that it's fading. Chase music, especially for some killers, accompanied with environmental noises such as a finished generator or realm effects can render trying to hear footsteps a lost cause. On top of footsteps being broken in general.
Like you lot are complaining so hard about stand still mind games of Spirit and how she's so unfair when you equip a perk that rewards you partial invisibility for playing badly in chase, as well as a perk that supposedly is too strong in "circumstances" (hint: stronger in more situations than not) that also gives you a third health state because you played badly. Just say you don't want fairness and you want the advantage and move on.
@Science_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2514042#Comment_2514042
And the same people claiming Spirit is now gutted were the same ones claiming that the old Ruin nerf would kill the game, that Nurse's nerf would make her a bottom-tier killer, and who think that every killer is unviable at the mystical "high MMR" that they themselves will never reach.
Spirit isn't gutted in my opinion but I think the changes are extremely unnecessary when considering the survivor meta. If Stridor nerf wasn't a thing I would pretty much have zero issues with the Spirit changes but I dislike how the devs seem to hardcore ignore the unfairness of survivor perks but are very quick to acknowledge killer ones, particularly when there's Twitter hoopla about it.
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@Itslat3ncy said:
Iron will provides no counter, oh please, you can counter it be having eyes, and paying attention. You can see the survivor, and the blood, and stretch marks. There are many ways to counter Iron Will
What you said is utter bullshite.
Iron Will provides free invisibility when LOS is broken, meaning inside any main building/jungle gym when getting chased. On top of that, it also deletes any breathing sounds, which makes it significantly worse.
Soon-to-be old Spirit had just as many counters. People just didn't want to bother learning them because survivors want as many crutches as possible, despite these tricks being present amongst tournament players for the longest time. There were tricks to tell when Spirit was phasing with almost 100% accuracy, you could follow where she was phasing based on environmental changes such as grass moving, and so on.
"But no Spirit is the most unfair thing ever but my prove thyself, brand new parts, iron will, and dead hard are perfectly balanced and not problematic", said the average survivor.
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@Artick said:
Spirit was unfair for years to survivors. Now you are complaining a deserved nerf will be UNFAIR FOR THE SPIRIT before you even got to play the changed killer.
Nice try, but no.
The same people running around saying Spirit was unfair are the ones who also see no issue with Dead Hard, Iron Will, old DS, old object, and don't see how those are unfair and how survivors have more unfair tools at their leisure than almost any killer does.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
Killer mains are so completely and utterly sophisticated. Not to mention humble. What would those peasant survivors do without us, the arbiters of fun? We are truly... a cut above the rest.
Someone has to be a role model to these peasants and set the bar for standards in this community.
@thrawn3054 said:
I have to disagree. I never really see either side critiquing their own side.
That's fair, I'm only one person and I only see so much, and that doesn't mean I see what anyone else sees (or doesn't see, sometimes).
@dspaceman20 said:
Im a survivor main and I feel I critique the survivor meta. I tend to not run a lot of meta perks. I usually run at most oneor two I I feeling it and I have found I have had the most fun running those other perks.
However I have to ask. Why are critiquing anyone for running killer perks. Players should be able to run any perk they want regardless of if they are strong or not. I wish people would leave others alone.
At least with me personally, I think anyone and anything is open to criticism. If someone doesn't like something they can feel free to say it. Doesn't matter if it's external of DBD or not. However I also have the mindset of using whatever you want in DBD even if it annoys or upsets others as your fun is most important. The game's nature is asymmetrical and is not balanced in terms of gameplay nor in terms of fun when looking at the duality of roles.
Like a slugging infectious fright Nurse is extremely boring to go against as being slugged isn't fun (unbreakable only works once and it's a nurse; she can just down you again) as it's literally preventing you from playing the game. I can complain about it all I want but if the Nurse finds it fun to use and play with then so be it.
@MadLordJack said:
Yes, we do. All the time. As do random survivors whenever some douchebag with a meta build tears into a nice killer for their perks.
I don't have much experience seeing this personally, but I have seen it in some instances of hypocrisy. Like criticising a ruin undying tinkerer blight while also using ds/dh/unbreakable yourself, with a haddonfield offering. It's typically in instances of lack of self-awareness that I see, personally. Although glad to hear it actually goes on.
Perhaps it goes on just as much behind the scenes but it's just not as advertised as when killer mains do it (criticise their own role's meta).
@Johnny_XMan said:
The survivor meta doesn’t include anything outside of perks, killer does.
Camping and Tunneling are two things that are only countered if you bring perks. So while I am critical of those who bring DS/UB/BT I also don’t blame them because those two actions have become a part of a killer’s kit. Meaning they are ALWAYS available, and there is 0 way to tell when someone is going to do it.
Only thing I could think of is items but even then the killer sees that and plans ahead. You can’t do that as survivor. Unless you just assume everyone is going to opt for that playstyle.
When I play killer I see a lot of DS/UB and barely if ever get stunned with DS because I choose to instead go for more fun builds, where it will push survivors to rely on more of their skill and less on creating a situation where they will cheese a strategy through those perks.
Unless it's like a Billy/Bubba or another killer with a one shot, I think camping can be worked around even without meta perks if the team is coordinated enough. Tunnelling can as well in many instances also if the team is coordinated enough. Something I do a lot in solo queue is if I see someone getting tunnelled I will purposefully bodyblock the killer to try and give more distance. If the team is privy of what I'm doing sometimes I'll even go down as well as bait to try and be hooked, although I often don't do this since two downs (if they're really that dedicated to tunnelling) is very catastrophic to a team.
In many games I always like to say that many times I see people use survivor meta perks to correct bad decisions instead of use perks that allow them to make good decisions. This isn't always the case of course but that's just my own observation. Good players will play smart regardless of the perks they use but many players I see rely on those perks not to help them out but to correct bad decisions that they're making. BT probably being an exception since it's not helping you but your teammates.
@Angelicus23 said:
kinda tired of survivor vs killer posts
and yes I saw you say this post is not that, but it actually is. You're speaking your own experience, and as you mention veterans as third person, it kinda gives the idea that you don't play or interact enough
If you're tired of it then you can feel free to not read it lol.
And no it's actually not, since this post's primary focus isn't about survivors criticising killer meta or killer's criticising survivor meta, as I noted in the OP. That was not meant to say it's not comparing attitudes of survivor and killer, but you're ignoring the details which are important and so what you're saying isn't accurate.
And yes obviously it's from my own experience and I acknowledged that, and it was quite obvious I was writing from personal experience in the OP as well. I have almost 2k hours, and when I say veterans I mean people who have 3x or more my hours. I don't consider myself a veteran personally as I haven't played DBD for more than a year.
@xenotimebong said:
You used to see a lot of survivor mains being outspoken about not running DS before it was nerfed, because it was acknowledged by a lot of people to be kind of dumb (especially when paired with Unbreakable). After its nerf more people consider it a dedicated anti-tunnel perk and therefore a lot more fair, so you’re not gonna see as many people disavowing it. Just like you won’t see most killer players apologising for using Pop on a low tier killer, or similar.
I’ve also seen plenty of survivor players on these forums (and outside of them) talk themselves up because they don’t run exhaustion perks, or DH in particular.
Outside of those particular examples, I totally disagree with your post in general. There are plenty of survivor mains who will scoff at a 4 man running all meta plus a good map offering, just like people will scoff at a Ruin/Undying/Pop/Corrupt Nurse with good add ons. But less people will give a damn if some solo Meg is running DS and a brown medkit, just like nobody will care about a Trapper running Corrupt.
There are also PLENTY of killer mains who will doggedly defend the honour of a full slowdown, range add on Nurse. Let’s not pretend the anti-slowdown killer mains are anything other than a minority.
Back when old DS was a thing I didn't use forums much so I guess I didn't see that, although personally myself during that time I was a bonafide survivor main and I also was pretty vocal about not running DS too (not because I thought it was busted but because I thought it was bad to use, or at least I saw people using it poorly). Personally I haven't seen nearly as much commentary about people bragging about not using exhaustion perks but that's not me saying it doesn't exist, just that I haven't seen it. I'm only one person and I only see so much.
My post wasn't to imply no survivor ever thinks lowly of survivor meta, rather at the very least it doesn't seem nearly as advertised as killer mains criticising killer meta. It could very much happen more (survivor mains criticising survivor meta), but it definitely seems very covert and they're a lot less outspoken about it
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@Bluebird said:
I mean, I do get where you're coming from, but there's probably a good majority that speak out on others using the same DS/UB/DH/Iron build, but they get shoved aside and labelled as a "Killer Main" who's just bad. I would call people out that brag about running full Meta, but because everyone's just going to assume that I'm a salty Killer Main who plays bad, I just don't even bother. On top of that, it's easier to critique a build for Killers due to some builds just being terrible on Killers, such as Pop with Pyramid Head, when he has his cages. Survivors are just skins, and the use of a perk comes from the player using the perk, not the character the player's playing.
I get this to an extent, but in also a number of instances just shouting killer main wouldn't make sense, particularly when the person is very well known to be a survivor main. For example with content creators who are very obviously survivor mains and pretty much never play killer, they say zilch about survivor meta and almost all of the ones I've seen use survivor meta builds themselves in pretty much every video/stream that's not dedicated to a specific build for content. Even if people in their audience were to yell "killer main" if they critiqued survivor meta, it just wouldn't make sense.
For killers I understand your point every optimal build can be different, although I do think the utmost "optimal" build would just be stacking the strongest slowdowns with little variance if you want an über strong build to delay the game to buy you enough time to get downs and kills.
@WeenieDog said:
Why?
I assume because most people don't play 4 man swfs, so they don't see how crazy it can get. Also, how can you tell whether or not someone is a killer main or a survivor main?
Many times it's self admitted, other times it's very obvious in their opinions about the games, and other times it's observable (content creators).
@LordRegal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2501935#Comment_2501935
I think this is probably why. The veteran killer players he’s talking about also often play survivor. I know I’ve seen Otz and Tofu say they recognize exhaustion perks are strong but they prefer not to use them because it’s more fun without the safety net (Tofu runs adrenaline and Otz has been playing with Smash Hit I believe, one of which is one time and the other is the most inconsistent one in the game). But because they’re both better known as killer players they get bunched into that role.
I would hazard a guess that people who 100% play one side are much less likely to grasp the problem of their side’s overpowered builds, on both sides. Anyone who plays a decent amount of both sides likely is aware of the problem perks on both sides and as they get better are likely less likely to find them fun to use because they get sick of seeing it when they’re in the other role and no longer need to be carried by them. That seems to hold true from what I’ve seen and experienced myself.
Are you saying there's maybe an imbalance between time spent when comparing killer mains to survivor mains? Like for example saying killer mains often will play the other role (survivor) more than survivor mains will play the other role (killer).
I definitely agree with the second part as well. When I first started playing for several hundreds of hours I never played killer and I was very much a typical entitled survivor main in terms of my views of the game. Then I started playing killer and my bitchiness decreased a lot (in terms of annoyance at the other side) and I developed a better perspective of the game.
I just do find it interesting though the disparity in attitudes between veterans, or at least ones who are content creators. You've got specialised killer mains like Huntress mains, Nurse mains, Billy mains, etc who pride themselves in their skill so much to never use any sort of slowdown, or even add ons sometimes. But I rarely have seen anything like that for survivor main content creators who will often times just run meta builds. I even see comp players do it honestly too. They say things like "you don't need slowdowns for pub games" but then when they switch to survivor you see their builds consist of ds/ub/iw/dh.