StarLost
StarLost
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3162949#Comment_3162949
I find it amusing that you think its us vs them when pointing out that one side gets a buff to hopefully encourage them to play differently, but instead they want to have their cake and eat it too. If you think that this is Us vs Them, you have a terrible bias attached to you.
"Tweaked things" is subjective, because to you they almost seem meaningless. Yet those of us who understand BOTH sides, know how bad Camping and Tunneling already was, not only in the lack of skill required to pursue the SAME survivor again, but also how it inevitably makes the gameplay feel more dull and like you have to play 50% of your load out with perks that semi-counter those two playstyles, just to get to somewhat feel like you're playing the game.
Band-aid perks don't interest me when the core problem still persists. I don't care what their killrates were, considering that they could have done other things to help certain killers who need it and not grant a universal buff to those who didn't need it to begin with. Hence why Nurse has become a problem lately.
Haha okay. Where do I even start here?
- The buff wasn't to encourage them to play differently. The buff was to increase kill rates. Where you you getting this from, mate?
- This is textbook, absolute Us Versus Them. You're literally insulting an entire faction of the playerbase...because some people play in a cheesy way. Much as I'd be doing the same if I'd blamed all survivors for the...what, four years of people abusing spots where it was impossible to pick them up from.
- Camping and tunneling are a different issue, and very difficult to solve. Baseline BT was a start. Reassurance is another step in the right direction. The idea isn't just active discouragement, it's passive discouragement.
- On top of this, you can't 'fix' tunneling and camping, because nobody seems quite sure what these even mean. Hell, I've been accused of tunneling because someone ran into me after being unhooked, because I dropped someone to chase a sabo-er and once literally because 'I chased someone for so long'. And let's not even start on camping - there is a thread on the front page still where people equate 'camping' to 'lightly defending a hook on Artist'.
- I've made several suggestions to help negate camping, but as BHVR have said themselves, it's hard to find a solution that won't result in people finding ways to exploit it against killers who aren't camping.
- I'm not a big fan of bandaid perks either - but why use this to attack all killer players? This is a BHVR issue, and I...sort of see what they're going for. The existence of the perk discourages the behavior, even if it's not present. Yes, putting them on RMT survivors is dirty pool though.
- Nurse does not benefit from the buffs at all. Her Fatigue state is independent of hit cooldowns. Do you...play much Nurse?
- Nurse is also a problem killer, because her kill rates are, when the gross data is taken into account, the lowest in the entire game. I'm not a fan of balancing off gross data, but if BHVR are going to nerf killers because they are overperforming at lower MMRs despite them being weak at higher MMRs, then it's hardly fair to also nerf killers who are struggling at lower MMRs because they are too strong at higher MMRs. It has to be one or the other.
- Nurse became more of a problem 'lately' due to bugged addons. These have been fixed.
- You're completely ignoring all the nerfs that killers got in 6.1.0, and the immense BT buff they just got.
But let's get real here. BHVR could nerf Nurse, or totally rework her, and the complaints would immediately shift to Blight. Then to the next strongest killers. Because that's how forum feedback works, unfortunately.
My problem is that you're attacking an entire faction of the game by claiming that they need BHVR to baby them, when it's only quite recently that this game wasn't completely broken in favor of survivors (prenerf OoO, pseudo infinites, endless glitched spots etc.).
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@TheArbiter said:
Basically it's the only map where I consistently struggle on if im unfortunate enough to get it without running enduring and spirit fury. Any tips on how to effectively loop on it or mindgame better? Feels like an automatic L against a SWF that brings it as an offering.
Basically, you'll just need to unga bunga through pallets. Don't respect them, just get them to drop them ASAP. Yes, this map is an abomination on some killers.
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@TheArbiter said:
Multiple matches where I lunge directly through someone who is in the middle of my screen and nothing happens. Not to mention the countless times where i get the animation of grabbing someone, they get infected, but then they randomly escape and they don't take damage.
*Looks at Sadako*.
*Rubs 8-Ball*.
All signs point to 'probably not'.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3162935#Comment_3162935
I do not play against tourney teams.
You might not know.
I watch a fair bit of Otz these days (too damn hot to run my PC) and he points out the tourney comps he plays against from time to time.
My point is that, if you're consistently 3king and 4king against the best survivors out there, you probably deserve to be MMR capped.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
I mean did you really expect killer players to play in any other way when the devs are not making substancial changes to that playstyle?
The devs have to hold their hand afterall.
Or, you know, we could not do the silly Us Versus Them dance yet again?
The developers had numbers saying that kill rates were lower than they wanted. So they tweaked things. Buffed some basekit stuff on killers and survivors, nerfed some stuff on killers and survivors.
Killers did win this one, but way, way less than the forum hysterics would have you believe.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3162842#Comment_3162842
The MMR cap isn't very high.
As long as you win more than 50% of your games, you should get there passively.
I see many names frequently and some that I've never seen before. The system is completely random for Killer at the moment.
If you're seeing many names frequently, that's...sort of arguing my point though, right?
If you were MMR capped and you weren't seeing those names frequently, then something would be off.
And if you're able to 3-4k constantly, yeah - you should be at the MMR cap. But by then, you're facing tourney comps and premades with 10k combined hours, so most people won't be able to.
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@Hawk81584 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3162815#Comment_3162815
game as a whole is in a bad place imo....and people are losing hope the devs have any desire other than to make money with new chapters.
Game is in the best place it has been since I started playing in 2020.
'Perfect' will always be the enemy of 'better'.
Hell, even a year ago there were still tons of spots where you couldn't pick people up, for one - and maps still had pseudo-infinites.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3162811#Comment_3162811
I can almost guarantee that most players sit at the cap of MMR. My matches after SBMM have been way worse than RBMM.
I'd love to know why you think that, because I watch streamers and I see the same names pretty often, which wouldn't happen if even many people were at the MMR cap.
On the other hand, I'd reckon that I'm at an 'intermediate' MMR, and I seldom see the same name twice unless I'm playing at very odd hours.
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@i_dont_care223 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3162193#Comment_3162193
its not even bait the map was perfect the way it was
No, no it wasn't.
Boons, for one, could be set up in places where - even if you had an idea where you were - it was too much of a time commitment to snuff them, and they'd cover 2/3 of the map.
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@Volcz said:
RBMM was a lot better IMO, sure the whole 'taste the rainbow' meme applied sometimes because of the system, but overall I found I had more quality games than I do now. Just my experience though.
RBMM worked well if you were a pretty experienced, 'veteran' player - because of the incredible range of opponents you'd be facing, you'd be able to go a lot easier and still have success.
It...was less fun for everyone else though. Starting off as a new killer under RBMM was horrible.
And that's before you factor in how easy it was to smurf (several extremely prolific players admitted to doing it for 'more fun games' pretty shamelessly) and the ridiculousness of the monthly reset.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3162799#Comment_3162799
It's essentially the same system.
If you died in RBMM, you probably didn't pip.
If you don't escape in SBMM, your MMR doesn't go up.
The difference is:
- It was super easy to get up to Purple ranks at least. I was in Purple literally two weeks after I'd started playing killer, and was facing SWFs with 1000s more hours than me regularly. SBMM may poop the sheets occasionally, but it's night and day.
- There's no dumb monthly reset on SBMM, so you don't have to avoid playing for the first week of the month if you're newer.
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@Smeagolthevile said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3161594#Comment_3161594
Artist does camp though, she uses her crows to camp from a distance, thats the difference.
As far as wesker camping goes... its the same as any killer with a big speedy ranged attack. It promotes hanging around a hook so you can get the survivor that comes to unhook w/ your power. You see it with huntresses that get just outside of kindred range and wait w/ their axes.
By this logic, anything short of just giving survivors 100% free unhooks is 'camping'.
A camping Artist is a bad Artist.
Lining up a birb volley to try and bullseye the person unhooking is just...lightly defending that hook.
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@Grum said:
You know the killer is comboing it with Pentimento.
You know you aren't going to bother remembering where the totem was after the killer sets up Pentimento there.
Please stop screwing your teammates.
Feel free not to cleanse them, I'm creeping up on you to grab you off that gen as we speak XD
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Eh...this one is hinky.
The only time I see the matchmaker break down this hard is where someone is smurfing their MMR, or you get a lobby with a lot of dodges.
Still beats the trousers off RBMM.
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@Friendly_Blendette said:
Excuse the Nurse I got dailies to do
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/5CAEWIOVPLUD/image-282-29-282-29.jpg
Like my MMR on Nurse is probably not sky high since I only play her except for dailies but this lobby it genuinely felt like brand brand new players, nobody even attempted to cleanse the totem despite them all running past it several times and some of them barely knew what a Nurse even was trying to predrop pallets that I would just blink through. There shouldnt be a maximum bloodpoint bonus to make lobbies this imbalanced. Like I get there a huge influx of new players atm and the main aim is matchmaking time but lobbies this are too imbalance to justify it being an instaqueue.
This lobby feels...off.
Have you lost a lot of games recently, or artificially deflated your MMR in some way?
Did someone dodge the lobby?
Two of these people look basically new, and shouldn't be facing a stacked Nurse.
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@UnknownKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3161908#Comment_3161908
So it means certain mmr need survivors so surely bad mmr needs survs.No thanks I dont wanna carry people
Then...don't?
For people who are willing, they'll get a nice wodge of BP for their trouble.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
This happens when the Devs make tunneling and camping super-easy.
You mean the...four separate changes to make tunneling and camping harder?
Tell me more.
@BreadSilence said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3161594#Comment_3161594
That hardly makes any sense tho. Why buy a BRAND NEW killer that hasn't even been out for 36 hours yet, if you're just gonna play in the most boring, unskillfull way possible without at least trying? Why not just play Bubba at that point? Or really any other killer for that matter?
Also you say only low-tier killers camp and tunnel yet just last night I had a Nurse hard camp me to death on my first hook during the middle of the match.
I'll tell you.
The way the MMR is calculated for killers you've never played before is baffling.
According to some sources, it's pegged just below your highest MMR killer. Others, it's your average MMR.
Yes.
On a killer you've never played before and likely don't have many perks or addons for yet.
So people go in, get clobbered and switch to a simpler strategy.
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@supersonic853 said:
Every wesker I've played against today has done exactly that. Sometimes fake leaving to just rush back. To say this is one of the most boring release days from a survivor experience would be underselling it. Which is sad because i looked forward to this patch. I hope everyone else has had more fun though.
Camping will always be a viable strategy.
The trick is to not make it the most viable strategy, and Reassurance is a decent start.
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@Raccoon said:
I get the impression that a lot of people either think they're better than they actually are and/or take the game way too seriously without the skill to justify it.
With that full disclosure out of the way, how good (out of 10) do YOU think you are in both roles?
Solo - 7
Killer - 7
Both of those could be a 7.5 on a good day, but I've always viewed myself as a 'slightly above decent' DBD player.
About 500 hours on killer, 350 on survivor.
I'd say that I'm a '6-7' killer, and a '4-5' survivor.
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@crogers271 said:
So I'm 30 hours into DbD and I thought I'd join what seems to be the true game: long rants about DbD.
So before I started playing I noticed lots of complaining between 'survivor mains' and 'killer mains' about the need to try the other side. So I thought as a new player I would give each side a go with no starting bias about who had the advantage.
I first played a series of games that I didn't track going back and forth just so I wasn't a complete noob. For reference I got the Trapper to bloodlevel 20, and Claudette to 30. As a further point of reference, I was enough of a noob that there were some maps that I hadn't even played yet. I decided to play 15 games as each and track the results (I also threw out any game where survivors were AFK or deliberately not playing).
I started with Trapper, build: Unrelenting (green), Thrill of the Hunt (yellow), Sloppy Butcher (green), No One Escapes Death (green) - makeshift wrap (common), trapper gloves (common) - offerings were just used to increase blood points
Results - average kill rate of 2.86, 67% of the time they didn't get the doors open. Not a single game did all four survivors manage to escape
Okay, I felt that a kill rate 2.86 was really high for a noob. Maybe Trapper is just overpowered? Nope, seems like everyone rates him one of the worst killers. Players I was going against? Yeah, there were some bad ones, but people who had far higher perks than me and obvious some of them were SWF. Am I some kind of natural savant at killer? Hardly, frequently my swings were just hitting empty air.
So let's go over to survivor and see how that worked out. Same as above, I threw out results if either a survivor or killer didn't play the game.
Results - Average kill rate of 3.33. Yikes, and of those games there was only a single time we all got out.
At this point I'm feeling that killers seem to have a pretty substantial advantage. But I decided to do one more test. I switched to Wraith, level 1, no add ons, only using the perk Bloodhound (to be clear, for all the games I played a base Wraith, no improvements)
Results - Average kill rate of 3.7. In ten games I got - 8 4k, 1 3k with a hatch escape, and only a single game were they got the doors open. In only two of the other games did they even get down to 1 gen.
Here's the kicker: In addition to being so new I was still getting lost, I was playing nice. I deliberately tried not to tunnel, after hooking a survivor I ran away from it like it was going to explode even if I knew others were in the area, and if I got off to a great start (multiple hooks before they even had a gen), I slowed down.
Noob verdict: The game is comically weighted towards the killer.
Now there is a couple of responses that might come to this:
1: My kill rate will drop when I get to 'high level MMR'.
Here's the thing, I'm not here saying I'm a great player. I'm new to the game, I should lose to players with a 1000 hours in the game (or a 100). But I'm mascaraing players who have more experience than I do.
2: I'm playing the 'easy' killers.
Yeah, sure, I imagine when I start trying Nurse there will be some comically embarrassing games, but easy should be about difficulty to learn the killer, now how much they butcher the survivor.
3: Survivors need to get good.
So there are a lot of answers to this, but I want to focus on one I haven't seen before. Killers don't need to get good. The game holds the killers hand in every way imaginable that it takes active effort to be bad.
Do you have to remember where the generators are? Nope.
Hooks? Nope, we'll tell you that.
Skills checks? Of course not.
Did something go wrong and you aren't sure where the noise came from? Oh, here's a visual icon as well.
Have trouble finding hiding survivors? Here are some perks that let you see them. Hah, of course we won't let the survivors know you have them.
Chases are another example of this. After you hit a survivor they get a speed boost. Cool, you can still run them down.
Oh, you lost sight of them? No problem, scratch marks.
No scratch marks? Don't worry, blood trail.
Oh, can't see the blood? We got you, we'll have them wine so loud you can't help but find them.
As a killer it feels like playing a child in basketball. You have to intentionally screw up sometimes to create the appearance that its actually competitive. As a survivor it feels like everyone on the team needs a perfect. Every mistake, missed skill check, mistimed vault/pallet, bad communication, has serious repercussions.
DbD has survived for a long time. It's a fun game with a cool theme. But a crazy design that things are so easy for the killer from the beginning while the survivors need to master multiple skills and, ideally, play in a group with chat.
Okay. So...there's something about this that makes me a bit suspicious, but let's proceed assuming that this is genuine.
When you start out, you tend to get a lot of kills. The killer 'role' is much more intuitive than survivor is.
This starts to fall off as you encounter better players, more coordinated, often in an SWF.
https://youtu.be/eeksCwuwq-kThis is what playing against a skilled survivor looks like.
To your points:
- 'Hours' doesn't really matter, unless you're talking about...honestly I'd say 300+, which tends to be the point where someone starts being 'intermediate'. This game takes a lot of time to really grasp.
- At very low MMRs, killer choice doesn't really matter, because survivors have absolutely zero idea of how to loop or run you effectively. You can effectively just walk up to them and hit them. This will change. Go and watch Otz's attempts at a Dredge streak to see how tough it can be to play against a good group of survivors even now.
- Talk to me in a few hundred hours. Or, if you want to see what you're in for, go check out some of the recent Hardcore Survivor series streams - just dozens upon dozens of 3-4man escapes in a row.
As things stand, the killer has a slightly lower skill 'floor', in that it's a role where you'll feel stronger than survivors for a time.
As you start getting towards a more intermediate MMR, you'll see why killers need those things.
Also -
@Murgleïs said:
Any gameplay footage ?
Even on this forum, you are not going to convince hard survivors mains that Trapper and Wraith are too good bestie.
Yeah, I want to see footage too, because something about this feels...off to me.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
- Bad stealth, that has lullaby and only really works if Survivor is not paying attention.
- Extremely long teleport cooldowns, both on killer teleporting and Survivor turning off TV.
- Condement is a joke and you can ignore whole game without problem 95% of the time.
- Her only "anti-loop" is mind game Invisibility around the loop which only really works if the Survivor doesn't pay attention. She is mostly M1 killer in a chase.
- No strong addons.
- Too many audio ques for Survivors to know about the killer.
- Removing tape / Turning off TVs is super fast and easy.
- TV spawns next to gens are sometimes bad (too far or below a floor level of a gen, next to a different room).
She's the second weakest. Trapper still exists.
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
No, she is not. Trapper and Myers are weaker than her.
At least Sadako has some nice mind-games with her power and teleport helps a lot for pressure on gens.
Myers is stalking you for tier 3 and he is losing 3 gens already. And even with tier 3, smart survivors will not get give him multiple downs.
Trapper? I don't need to talk about this guy right? Even best add-ons does not makes him viable.
Myers is stronger than Sadako by a mile. VM+Monitor gives him far more effective stealth, and TSP is one of the most ridiculous addons in the entire game.
He's still not a strong killer, but he does at least have options.
Sadako...so little of her kit has synergy with other parts, and other aspects (like her size) has just as many areas where it hurts her as helps her.
@Silasy said:
She is pretty bad but there are still worse killers than her. I think she is 3rd or 4th worst killer in the game along with the Trapper, Myers and Freddy.
Freddy and Myers are stronger.
Freddy is just boring.
@Plsfix369 said:
I'm not going to lie, Sadako players can be quite aggressive with their playstyle at times, and I'd like to believe that if Sadako receives passive condemnation, it will be used to tunnel and mori everyone out of the match. But that's the fun part. You get to play against someone who actually poses a threat rather than just being a budget wraith with teleportation powers.
The issue with her kit is that insta-mori is just a...bad, silly design decision. It's impossible to balance - if it's present enough to be a threat, it's brokenly OP. Otherwise it's barely an issue.
I've suggested before that it should work a bit like Wesker - it gains more rapidly, and when it gets to maximum stacks she can see the survivors aura for a few seconds, and can instadown them - with a mori on the final hook.
@Norhc said:
She has strong addons. Well, one at least and a few decent ones.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149350#Comment_3149350
Myers? What? Assuming you're talking about normal Myers (there's like 5 different Myers in case you didn't know) he still is well above the likes of Sadako and Ghostface.
She...doesn't though.
The traversal one is nice, but a savvy survivor group can shut it down easily.
The 'start with tapes' one seems strong on paper, but it falls off so fast.
Her best addon is still her mandatory brown, that should be basekit.
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@Raccoon said:
You can't force the killer to ignore a viable target.
You can add 100s of BT to base kit - if you're a problem and/or the killer feels like removing you from the game for any reason under the sun, they can still focus you.
No deterrent can remove player agency.
And?
Getting one person out ASAP should be a viable strategy - it just shouldn't be so head-and-shoulders above all other strategies in terms of viability.
The 6.2.0 changes should help this. The BT is nice, but the increased movement speed will be even better.
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@Junylar said:
As an average soloQ enjoyer, I know very well that the endgame is basically 1v1v1v1v1, or as many "1"s as there are players left. So of course when I'm left with just one teammate and 2+ gens left, I don't hope to finish all of them, so I wait for the other guy to die so that I at least have a chance of escaping. However successful that happens to be, I always hear the same catch phrase from at least one of my teammates in the end-game chat: "oooooohhhh that Claudette was just hiding all game". Right, that Claudette finished 2 gens solo, went for 2 unhooks with following full healing, but decided to skip the last pointless and hopeless unhook in order to actually get one escape instead of giving ez 4k the killer, and here I am, "hiding the whole game".
I understand that those guys must feel envious and salty, especially when I actually escape successfully, but who is here to blame after all. Even harder for me to understand when the killer actually joins this clownery, and when the other survivor actually leads the killer to me and the killer kills me while letting the rat go. Sometimes after those totally not bannable "working with the killer" episodes they feel obliged to justify their actions the same overused way: "you were hiding all game".
Do these people actually believe what they are saying? Do they really think that 2 people unhooked themselves and 2 gens repaired on their own? They never say just "you were hiding", they always add "the whole game", like from the first second. It feels like hearing "you were camping and tunneling the whole team" while playing killer, when nothing like this actually happened. Is it some kind of new way of trolling / chat toxicity, or these people are really so deluded?
It's...tricky.
On one hand - yes, you are technically allowed to hide and try for the hatch, letting your teammates die.
On the other hand, it sort of goes against the spirit of the game and is annoying for both sides. On the survivor end of things, far too often I see people start hiding when the game is still very much winnable - and this can be hard to notice at times. I've always been a fan of 'just play it out'.
It's also really obnoxious for killers, as sometimes what'll happen is multiple people will start hiding in the hopes that you find the other one, and you have to spend 15 minutes extra wandering around the map and trying to spot people getting in and out of lockers or touching bones to try and keep off the AFK crows.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3149036#Comment_3149036
Oh I stand by this point. DS could easily be a 10 second stun that works on both hook states to actually deter tunneling (as long as we make some other changes, such as Endurance removing collision so that BT/OTR Bodyblocking goes away). But then, people would still tunnel at 5 gens and complain they got hit by DS, wouldn't they?
Well, yes. Because this is a videogame and someone will always complain about any change introduced.
In the words of the great Yahtzee - Cows go 'moo', sheep go 'baa', PvPers go 'this game is imbalanced'.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
This is a phrase I've seen used around very frequently, initially used in terms of Decisive Strike, more recently in debates around Off The Record and basekit post-unhook Endurance, and as of Project W, Reassurance. The general argument is that, during endgame, certain perks should deacitvate which hamper the killer's efforts of killing the survivor. I will try to keep my own opinions around any perks discussed here out of the conversation- feel free to look at my comment history if you're curious.
My question is, though, why should the killer get "free kills"? Because, in essence, disabling all of the anti-camp, anti-tunnel, and anti-slug tools that Survivors possess will equate to "free kills", where the Survivor team has very little they can do in terms of assisting a hooked teammate, which becomes progressively more likely as a Trial continues due to resources being consumed. Naturally, good SWF players on comms are able to bodyblock for each other and try and get their teammates to safety, but even bad SWF players or just solo queue will struggle substantially more without, say, BT or Reassurance to help with camping. And quite frankly, if you still can't get a hook after 5 gens have popped, you really don't deserve one, so the edge case of the killer having nobody on the hook nor having them been hooked the entire trial doesn't really apply.
So, why is it always that Survivors don't deserve "free escapes" and yet end-game camping/tunneling is justified because it's how the killer is able to score some last kills? Why should Survivors lose access to their tools while killers gain a massive boost to theirs (due to a lack of map resources)?
I'm genuinely curious why the argument is used so much- in my honest opinion, there are other arguments that can be used in their place which, at least to me, sound substantially less balanced.
If this post feels like a ramble and/or makes very little sense, I do apologise- I've been sat on a coach for the past 24 hours and caught an illness that's turned my brain to mush. Writing in grammatically correct sentences is about all I can manage right now, because my brain unhelpfully supplies every third word in German instead of English.
I think you've hit a false dichotomy here.
Both of those things can be true.
Survivors don't deserve free escapes, and killers don't deserve free kills.
I don't think anyone's asking for anti camp/tunnel/slug perks to be disabled. I...can't think of any posts along these lines since 6.1.0.
In terms of EOGC kills, that's...complicated.
The issue is that the endgame should be a crisis point for both sides, but for the longest time it was only a crisis point for killers.
On the other hand, the sides are different. A 4k feels bad for survivors. A 0k feels bad for killers. Thus, we have tools like Hatch to help at least one survivor get away, and killers will often camp in the EOGC to help them get...something.
Perks like DS and OTR are utterly miserable to face in the endgame, because these do often give completely free escapes. A savvy group of survivors can save someone getting camped in the EOGC, pretty often. But if someone has DS or OTR up, there's absolutely zero counterplay and they get their 'free' escape.
Make sense?
Also - you sat on a what? XD
@Pulsar said:
Why should the Killer get free Kills?
They shouldn't.
I feel like the place we are at now is...fairly balanced. Basekit BT and Haste allow for counterplay from the Killer during the EGC whilst not allowing them to just knock the Survivor down almost immediately.
Some people may have an issue with it and they are allowed to hold their opinion. It's wrong but I suppose they are allowed that luxury.
I agree.
It's been wonderful seeing a variety of perks again, and not just DH/IW/DS/SC
I do think DS needs to go back to 5 seconds (disabling it in the EOGC was enough) as currently this barely fulfills it's purpose and SC...SC was fine. I still see a lot of it, but it's now a noob trap.
Solo survivors do need...something too.
@arsoul93 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3148990#Comment_3148990
Honestly sounds more like you're not as good at killer as you think you are - which isn't an insult, playing killer effectively requires a lot of scheming and some people like to blame balance issues globally rather than looking at anything they could have done better throughout the game. These perks are not strong at all and playing killer is now easier than its ever been across most MMR ranges.
Nobody is a perfect player - and endgame DS was less a balance issue and more just a 'this feels really crappy to play against' thing. It's one thing to have to fight for a kill, and another thing to get that kill, and then instead get DSed and teabagged all the way to the exit.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145792#Comment_3145792
The game is not balanced around swfs, nurse and blight are there to be the killer version of a swfs in terms of power level. Solo queue needs base information to help them out but in reality most of the problems with solo queue stem from 1 to 3 bad players getting matched against a good killer due to autofill. Just like killers would get sucked into a game with a high level swf even though they were playing clown and have 30 hours in the game before 6.1.0. If matchmaking was good I would be going against good swfs all the time regardless of my queue time and that clown would go against similar level survivors.
Yeah, it is.
Because if you don't balance around SWFs, an entire faction gets nozzled. If you do, then solos get nozzled, but that's...half a faction.
Someone loses out, and that's unavoidable.
SBMM is...honestly okay now, at least at peak. Offpeak, it's a bit nutty but should improve once incentives are in and the tidal wave of Weskers recedes.
@cloudkiil said:
Seing our teammate's perks before the game would be good.Also ping bar to make yourself noticed to other survivors.
I'd love to see perks before the match, but I worry that it'll just lead to endless lobby shopping for stacked meta perk people, and new players might struggle to find someone to play with.
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@Dead_Harder said:
Aight let me celebrate this with a terrible take.
Most killers dont have an original enough power to deserve a spot in the game.
That is indeed a terrible take.
Some killers need a rework, but they are all pretty damn different.
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@VexTheHex said:
They could steal pings and status icons from VHS. Would help.
Nerf tunneling and camping. Nerf gen regression perk stacking. And nerf Nurse, Blight, and Spirit who shouldn't be as strong as they are if they were S/A tiers before all these Survivor nerfs. Hag could probably be thrown on that pile to, but like she is almost as rare as Twins so I wouldn't really rally for that till people start abusing that unfun, miserable creation that has been left unchecked for so long simply cause people aren't interested in playing her.
Hag!?
Hag is 'A' tier, at best.
Spirit...I think people overvalue here too.
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@Sluzzy said:
There is a lot of discussion about how killers have effortless winstreaks and all you have to do is watch Twitch or Youtube to find the evidence. This is why stats need to be looked at with caution.
Survivors don't have the winstreaks that experienced killer possess and I think this is bad for the game because it shows unfairness and most importantly a grossly unbalanced game.
Survivor is not as fun as it used to be because of too many nerfs and a lack of motivation and chance to win. This is because of balancing around bad killers. Circle of Healing, Dead Hard, Decisive Strike have been changed into killer sided perks and removes players agency from survivor.
Circle of Healing: A perk that takes away from doing the objective (to win) to setup a way to heal. It was nerfed so much that it was less worthwhile than using Self-Care. Self-Care is now nerfed so bad that both is not acceptable or most importantly fun to use. The ability to heal takes too much time, meanwhile it is easy for killer to continue with their objective. Good killers can capitalize with no way for survivors to overcome.
Decisive Strike: The survivor plays better than the killer for the entirety of the match but the survivor is punished for playing well and the perk is disabled, for bad killers. The nerf to 3 seconds also rewards bad killer gameplay. It is not fair killers have perks that guarantee their wins with endgame perks but survivors do not have any that helps them win. Killers can play badly at the endgame and survivor does not have a way to overcome it.
Dead Hard: Good killers knew how to play around old dead hard as evidence by watching killers play. Of course it sometimes, albeit rarely in specific scenarios extended the chase under very specific circumstances but shouldn't that what a perk does? Help you survive? The perk is now nerfed so killers do not have to think about the perk which is bad design. Killers do not need skill to down the survivor now because it is a simple M1 without thinking about what the survivor might do or try to dodge the hit. With less than a second of window of activation, the perk is unusable due to server latency. The new form is not fun to use, at the cost of balancing for bad killers.
Balancing so killer perks automatically reward the killer in so many ways with no downsides while survivor perks have too many downsides, too many deactivation conditions has caused the game to lose its fun factor for survivor side. This is why survivor is not as fun as it used to be because of lack of options. Experienced killers capitalize on these lacks of options for survivor to guarantee their wins. This causes survivors to have no hope in a majority of matches.
Sigh.
Here we go again.
- What discussions?
- I looked. I found one guy with a Nurse streak and Otz, and the only major streak he's managed was during MMR testing.
- You're kidding, right? There are SWFs with 100 escapes +
- CoH...what? CoH was barely nerfed, and it's still amazing.
- Dead Hard was so imbalanced that it was creeping up on 75% useage at higher MMRs.
- This game is not and cannot be balanced around solos.
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@FilthyLegionMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145913#Comment_3145913
Same thing with hacking. Record your matches if they start to get out of hand. Also this ain't an MMO, sir. It's a 1v4.
Yes - that was a cooperative game.
I can only imagine DbD.
'Just record all your matches in case someone does a thing' is not realistic.
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@Hes1hp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145783#Comment_3145783
But waaait, that would also buff SWF!!!!! 1!1!111!1!1!!1!!!!
Nooooooooooo
Killer mains.
Yes?
Putting a bunch of exclamation points in front of something doesn't invalidate the point.
If they buff SWFs, you'll see kill rates drop again, and you'd be looking at more killer buffs - putting us back where we started.
@FilthyLegionMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145887#Comment_3145887
I have but do you see me caring? I wanna hear them ######### on mic than over text. It's funnier that way.
It's more that voicechat is nearly impossible to moderate.
I remember when WoW tried a native voicechat experiment, and it was wall to wall racial slurs, people blasting air horns, people screaming...ugh.
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@sulaiman said:
Easy. Sepereate solo and swf-queue and balance both seperatly. At SWF, killers have higher power level, at solo, its lower, basicly.
BHVR have emphatically said that they'd never do it - probably because you'd have a lot of SWFs that go back to lobby shopping until they get put together, in order to get the solo buffs.
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@DeleteSWF said:
Distortion - I use this perk so the killer doesn't see me. I can guess which perks the killer is using based on when Distortion activates. This often lets me do generators without interruption because the killer doesn't realise I'm fixing. It also saves me from Nurse's Calling when I'm healing, Floods of Rage during rescues, Bitter Murmur when a generator is completed, etc. I rarely have a "how did the killer know?" moment. After the first few minutes, I know when the killer will see me before their perks even activate.
Self Care - If I take damage, I use this to heal. It is still by far the best healing perk. Everything else is too situational (Inner Healing) or a massive waste of time (Circle of Healing). You could swap this with a medkit but they have limited uses and can be countered with Franklin's Demise, so I prefer not to. This also allows me independence, not having to rely on other people (NEVER interrupt somebody fixing - fixing is the most important thing) or items, or totems.
Left Behind - When my useless teammates die, I use this to find the hatch before the killer.
Sole Survivor - If the killer finds hatch before me, I use this to open exit gates 50% faster.
I advise gen rushing with this build. Don't rescue anybody and don't heal anybody. Your solo queue teams are full of losers who will run for every rescue, traverse the entire map to heal somebody, search every box, break/boon every totem, take hits for no reason, fail flashlights, and generally waste time doing anything except repairing generators. Hooked survivors WILL be rescued, just not by you.
If everybody else fixes generators like you, it's an easy win. If they all die, that benefits you anyway because you can easily get hatch or gates.
If you're getting bad teammates and not using this build, you are choosing to lose and your opinion on balance should be disregarded.
Distortion isn't bad, but I think there are better options.
I generally run:
Windows of Opportunity. This often gets dismissed as a 'noob' perk, but I love it - I can tell, at a glance, which pallets are still up, which windows are open etc.
Circle of Healing. Still monstrously powerful. Self Care is sadly a new player trap now. I replace this with Built to Last if I bring a good medkit.
Empathy. I adore this perk, and find it almost as useful as Kindred. It helps me to set up saves, know where the killer is and find people who need healing.
Lithe. Always loved this perk. So few people run it on anyone but Feng, and it has wonderful synergy with WoO.
'Bad teammates' are unavoidable, but if you play aggressive you can often loop the killer for long enough to carry.
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@DeleteSWF said:
Solo survivors don't need buffs of any kind.
They need to start repairing gens more and stop playing badly. Low survival rates are entirely due to poor tactical decisions, cockiness and entitlement.
Eh...the issue is that the game is heading towards a position where it's balanced around SWFs - and there's no realistic way for solo survivors to coordinate or share information like an SWF can do.
Hell, even perk selection - far too often you get 3 people running Kindred.
@Mat_Sella said:
Status Icons would help immensely, actually. If someone gets hooked and I see the icons go from 3 survivors working on gens to 2 survivors working on gens, I know someone is going for the save. That is one example of saving extreme amounts of time based on a little amount of information.
There are countless situations in which knowing what is happening at specific moments can turn the tides of the match.
I think they'd help slightly.
The issue is that just because people have the information doesn't mean they will actually cooperate.
You can't force coordination.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145320#Comment_3145320
Supalf has over 300 wins streak on nurse im not sure did he get bored and let survivors escape. He posted video AFK:ing until all gens done so I think that's it then.
I always find Alf a touch suspicious. He's clearly a very good player, but some of the opponents he gets are head-scratchers. I don't want to level any accusations of MMR abuse, but...yeah.
@Rovend said:
How is it fair to use the absolute peak of Comp SWAT SWF to say the game is survivor sided?
How many of these are in the entire survivor base? 0,1%? 1%? Being extremely generous 5%?
People are literally talking about Alf's Nurse streak in this thread - multiple posts.
If that's fair game, then so are comps.
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@BottomPolice said:
I know getting flashlight saves are very satisfying to get but, I think a lot of survivors overestimate flashlights and constantly go for saves. I can’t deny that flashlights are the most busted survivor item against a new killer but decent killers can easily counter flashlight saves just by looking at a wall. I’m not saying flashlights are bad or anything, because it definitely has its moments, especially if you’re in a swf but I think it’s overhyped because of content creators.
Flashlights require a lot of skill to use effectively, but they are absolutely not overrated.
Some of the tricks you can do are evil, sometimes to the point of being completely broken.
- Double locker saves make a duo literally invulnerable.
- You can blind/burn a killer in a variety of animation locked states, such as vaulting or between Nurse blinks.
- Wraith can be burned out of stealth pretty easily.
@mischiefmanaged said:
I like flashlights both on the killer and survivor side. As killer, survivors who use flashlights are also usually going for riskier/more altruistic plays which is fun. And most times that someone gets a flashlight save or a blind I'm thinking, "Wow that was a good one. Congrats." It can be a bit frustrating if you're already having a frustrating game, but what PvP game doesn't end up frustrating when you're losing or playing badly?
Except for double lockers or lockers that are very close to each other. It's never happened to me, but I've seen it happen to streamers and that seems miserable. Mostly because you remove any of the counterplay/interactivity for near invincibility until they run out of flashlight juice.
But yea Medkits are way stronger and easier to use. Flashlights are just more interactive.
I hate them. People love to clicky macro and it gives me a headache.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
Let me go get my SWF real quick...
This game is not and cannot be balanced around both solos and SWF.
@Sadako_Best_Girl said:
Me seeing the hundredth "your side OP because youtuber has a million winstreak" post of the week
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/RH6FGW4EAYUM/kanye-west-stare.gif
It's more a response to all the 'killer OP now' threads, I reckon.
That said...
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3145451#Comment_3145451
the game is still survivor-sided post changes. nothing changed. look how many average hooks the killer gets before 5 gens.
game 1: 2 hooks(total 2 hooks)
game 2: 2 hooks(total 2 hooks)
game 3: 0 hooks(total 1 hook)
game 4: 1 hook(total 3 hooks)
game 5: 2 hooks(total 3 hooks) 1 kill
power of just pressing m1 on generators and base-kit info perks with ok looping. 10% pallet break, faster cooldown and 10 second gens changes very little for survivor yet you have survivor constantly suiciding in soloq and survivor's saying the game is unplayable.
It's not really anyone 'sided'.
This game is coordination, experience, perks, loadout, addons, map, snowball and RNG sided.
If one side brings memey perks and gets sent to an unfavorable map against someone bringing their strongest stuff, they'll struggle. And vice versa.
@CaulDrohn said:
You video fails miserable in proving your point. All the matches it shows were recorded BEFORE the perk overhaul, as can be seen by the use of old dead hard in the trapper game, and at least two scenes with event pedestals in the last match. So if anything, the video proves that the game was survivor sided before the perk overhaul, but it is totally irrelevant for the current state of the game.
Shrug.
Go and watch some of the recent HCS streams, post rework. Very similar results.
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@shelobster said:
Meanwhile swf remains unchanged and as strong as ever.
Unfortunately, I don't think that this game can be balanced in terms of both the SWF and solo versus killer matchups.
Yes, solos could have more tools to communicate - but I'm not sure how much that would actually do.
It's a situation where either SWF, solo or killers are getting the greasy end of things.
@Junylar said:
The only solution: stop playing soloQ whatsoever. Dive into the killer queue, get some books to read while you are waiting. This will make the community so much more educated.
My killer queues are between 30 seconds and about 2 minutes now at worst.
Survivor queues are between instant and 2 minutes now.
However...if I think back even 6 months, my survivor queues were in the region of 5 minutes and my killer queues were instant.
@ad19970 said:
I don't get this argument. It's so ridiculous to me that some people are acting like solo queue has been completely destroyed but swf survivors are as strong as ever. Just insane.
How do the killer buffs not affect swf survivors? And how do these killer buffs make solo queue suddenly unplayable? It's Honestly just so, so ridiculous.
The frustrating part is that survivors do need help at the moment, especially solo queue. It's just not fair for killers to get a bunch of good buffs that help them with their frustrations, but survivors getting nothing in return. And those 5 second endurance after being unhooked are not even close to enough.
But people just seem to rather participate in hyperbole than actually voice proper criticism, at least at times it seems. Solo queue is not dead, and swf hasn't been left untouched. The buffs actually help killers, giving them a better and fairer chance at winning. The problem is just that solo survivors didn't get any help, and that camping and tunneling are still as effective as they ever were, and maybe even more now. Pretty bad if you ask me.
Camping is getting a nerf in the next patch, via Reassurance.
That endurance effect is also a big nerf to tunneling, as is OTR.
Yes, you can still tunnel and camp, but they definitely aren't as effective as they once were.
Outside of communication/icons, what help could you give solos that would be a net zero buff for SWFs?
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@Reinami said:
If killers play nice and try and 12 hook, not tunnel, never camp, they won't be able to win unless the survivors are potatoes.
If the killer doesn't play nice, tries to 1 and 2 hook, proxy camps at a nice 3 gen place, then they get raged at in the end game, and the survivors generally have a bad time.
This should be fixed. The game should be designed in a such a way that a killer is able to win by going for hooks, and doesn't have to camp and tunnel. Additionally, in such a world, camping and tunneling should either not be possible due to game mechanic changes, or result in the killer automatically losing due to game mechanics going against them in this case. This should all be possible in solo queue as well.
This would result in the game being much more fun for both sides. Tunneling and camping get addressed, so survivors don't feel like they don't get to play the game if they are the unlucky ones. Killers get to have more fun because they aren't sweating it out trying to tunnel out or camp a survivor. You would see more positive interaction between survivors and killers (I.E. the chase, and the mindgames) rather than the toxic ones we often see now.
Here's the thing.
I play nice.
I do fine.
What's key is consistency, and being willing to take a few losses without going all out. Eventually, your MMR will put you in a position where you can be a little more chill.
I also go hard from the start, and then start easing up once I have control over the game, and attempt to make it somewhat challenging but still fun for the other side.
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@mistar_z said:
Trying to put a compilation together and try out combinations that I may not have thought of.
My regular go to has normally been Darkness Revealed, it's amazing how many free downs this perk has managed to get me, it's also very good for late game when the last two play more stealthily.
And dead lock as a nice passive that I don't need to worry or manage too much.
I used to run corrupt but the nerf to it really hurt the viability on him, cause we now lose it on the first down so I dropped it.
Iron Maiden
Darkness Revealed (I think that's what it's called, the 'see auras when you open lockers' thing)
Discordance
Pain Resonance
@DoritoHead said:
Bamboozle’s great to shut down powerful loops where Trickster has a hard time.
I find that as a 110% killer, the survivor just vanishes off into the distance if I try this.
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@Wampa1 said:
Personally love sloppy butcher paired with franklins demise as killer, favour off the record and bt as survivor,similarly hare going against these combos.
Worst perks to face as a solo survivor:
Knockout
Insidious
Deadlock
Anything else.
On an instadown killer, this is just...so much worse than being camped.
My general perk set:
Surge
Pain Resonance
Discordance
Devour Hope
Worst perks to face as a killer:
PTS
Hyperfocus
Built to Last (with a stacked toolbox)
Ex perk
My general survivor perk set:
WoO
Lithe
Empathy
CoH
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@Onyx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3144528#Comment_3144528
Nah, it has to come with the killer aura, that's the whole point. That is info that SWF have anyway and the point is to bridge the gap between SWF and solo, which means it has to be the full Kindred effect, killer aura included. People do really be butthurt over the fact that they can't just stand around the hooked person and not be called out when a SWF can do that anyway. The killer aura reveal ensures that campers are shown to everybody.
No, it isn't.
A lot of SWFs run Kindred, often with Open Handed, because the aura reading is a huge bonus. On smaller maps, you basically have wallhacks. You can see this even at very high MMRs, and Kindred was used in most of the recent HCS games.
Even killers that don't camp - loop them even somewhat near the hook and you have complete visibility of them at all times.
This would free up slots in SWF, which in turn would be a buff. Which would skew the SWF - Killer matchup again, futz with kill rates and you'd get another killer buff in due course, which would make things worse for solos.
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@BottomPolice said:
BHVR should definitely add an rank mode and an quick play/unranked mode. It feels like every match of dbd is kinda sweaty, and I think that’s why a lot of ppl miss the old ranking system. I feel like this would encourage survivors and killers to use different builds instead of meta perks. And for killers and survivors who are more competitive or want a challenge could use the rank mode. This would definitely be healthy for survivors and killers because the game has been a little dry. I’m open to listening to everyone’s opinion so please give me your thoughts.
Eh...it sounds like a good idea, but it..isn't.
@HugTheHag said:
I do think there should be something done to make matchmaking more healthy (maybe an option to disable "fast vs relevant" matchmaking), and two modes would be a great idea.
However, there is no stopping cocky competitive players from going into the casual mode just to grief or have easy stomps... Though I guess there is no perfect solution, and that should not stop the devs from trying to make the game more healthy for casual players.
This is exactly what happened.
Starcraft 2 had a problem with pro players smurfing at lower ranks. So they made an 'unranked' queue and a 'ranked' queue, with separate MMRs.
All that happened was that it got so much easier to smurf - pro players would get their ranked MMR super high, and head over to unranked to crack some skulls when they wanted to unwind.
This got so bad that the only way for a less skilled player to get a chill match was, ironically, to play ranked.
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@ausanimal said:
Question has everyone forget how to boop the snoot it seems to be getting harder and harder to get people to do it or even to know it's a thing, i know some killers will troll you and let you boop the snoot then kill you, Every time i play the pig all i try to do is get at least 1 survivor to boop and it's getting harder to do that i miss the days when you had all 4 at EGC booping you all at once.
Has anyone else noticed this when trying to get a boop, do you go for a boop when playing survivor and hope for the best, let me know your thoughts or what you do as a survivor.
@HugTheHag said:
I always try to go for boop, but pigs always seem to reward me with a blade in my neck :(
Here's the problem.
It was a fun meme.
Then it became a 'forced' meme, where people would expect you to immediately drop chase the second they did it, and would get upset with you if you actually wanted the down.
Now I'm just done with it.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3144550#Comment_3144550
I don't think I'm wrong when I say the average DbD player is bad at the game.
All the stats that the devs have released contained the average kill rate. At best, 2 Killers have been under 50%, while Killers like Pig and Cenobite, 2 relatively weak Killers that are hard to play against for beginners/people that don't understand how they work, have always had a high kill rate.
That's telling of how bad the average player is
You have to scrape off the extremes at either end to make an effective curve - because these throw off your data. Especially when it comes to videogames. Extremely new players in particular are going to skew the graph otherwise.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3144532#Comment_3144532
Again, the average DbD player is extremely bad at the game
I'm not sure if that works - because 'bad' is as relative as 'skilled'.
When it comes to a game, there's no such thing as being objectively 'bad' or 'skilled'.
These are subjective terms, based on a curve.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3144509#Comment_3144509
Which means the game is balanced around bad players. That's not a good thing.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/342266/accepting-that-this-game-is-irreparable
The game isn't irreparable, it's just that the devs don't know how to fix it
No, it's balanced around 'average' players. Skill is always relative.
This isn't an Esport. Balancing around the tip top MMRs tends to make the game gradually rot from the inside. See: Starcraft 2.
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@SimplyPixelated06 said:
...
Minus the killer aura? Sure.
Otherwise it's going to wind up buffing SWFs further, which would mean more killer buffs.
@EvilSerje said:
Kindred + Reassurance to basekit
Reassurance - I want to see how it's used first. I really want to see it disabled in the endgame, because it totally negates the EOGC 'I need at least 1k' camping, which tends to be a fun crisis point for survivors.
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@BenOfMilam said:
Extremely anecdotal. Played a couple games at 10pm to 12am. Survivors queues took several minutes, but killer queues were literally instant.
Is it just me, or are other people experiencing this?
Huh.
I must say, I haven't seen this for a while.
I do expect that once the tidal wave of Weskers recedes, the incentives will help to even things out though.
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@dugman said:
In case anybody is curious, Otz just posted his updated killer tier list. While I don't literally agree with 100% of what Otz says all the time his positions are always well articulated and generally worth at least a listen. (Although at almost two hours long it's something I personally just listen to the items I'm mainly interested in versus the entire episode all at once.)
Anyway this new one includes his thoughts on Wesker. Here's the video and a breakdown of the timestamps. Per his introduction this is how effective he feels the killers are played normally against average to high MMR survivors using typical add-ons and random maps.
S Tier
A+ Tier
A Tier
B Tier
- 0:31:57 Pinhead
- 0:36:33 Cannibal
- 0:39:32 Demogorgon
- 0:42:07 Deathslinger
- 0:45:47 Nemesis
- 0:49:24 Dredge
- 0:53:53 Hillbilly
C Tier
D Tier
--
I think my own list would be kind of similar to this with some of the killers moved up or down a rank. Just going through it off-hand from bottom to top
- I think Onryo should be C Tier with Wraith. He seemed to be discounting her partly because of limitations of Stealth against really good survivors, but the survivor bracket he's talking about (average to high) is actually still somewhat susceptible to stealth attacks and this is also evidenced by her slightly above average kill rates on aggregate sites which track that level of player. She's weaker than Dredge though so still not great, I think C tier is the call.
- Pig probably belongs in B Tier currently. Again, she has very solid stealth and that is a useful asset in the average brackets we're talking about. Also the change to her boxes a couple of months ago seems to have helped her and her kill rates are quite high currently. (And historically she's been one of the highest kill rate killers in the overall brackets of all matches against all players as well, again because stealth is an ability that is most useful against average players.) Given that change and her statistically high kill rates I would put her in B, not C.
- Trickster is probably a bit high, I would put him in D Tier instead of C. Even Otz in his discussion of Trickster spends a good chunk of it listing in gruesome detail all the problems Trickster has (slow movement, the potential to waste his power if he can't secure a damage state from the daggers, an ultimate triggered ability that is way too tricky to use properly) before getting into what he likes about Trickster which is, if a survivor is in the open, he has the potential to get a quick down. He then loosely compares Trickster to Bubba in how a survivor in the open can be downed quickly, but frankly Trickster is no Bubba. And statistically Trickster always has among the lowest kill rates on both the dev charts and the aggregate site I follow. He really belongs in the bottom tier in my opinion.
- I personally put Dredge in A tier versus B simply because its map mobility is so strong and long periods of solid stealth are also useful against average survivors. Again, the problems it suffers in terms of the effectiveness of stealth are more at the really high end of the survivor pool versus the average to above average end. And while its anti-loop isn't great it's still something that can get a hit now and then. If its Remnant plays were better I might have put it in A+ but as is A seems the right spot. (And statistically Dredge is quite high in the kill stats as well.)
- I like Twins well enough but I would put them in B tier instead of A. Victor has good map mobility and a touch of stealth, which is great, but ultimately his lunge is so finicky when it comes to hitting survivors using obstacles for cover and the swap time between him and Charlotte just feels a touch too slow for its own good that I just can't see myself putting them in A tier while those issues are present. And Twins generally have low kill rates at the average brackets as well. At the highest end apparently Twins can be really ruthless, but since this list is about average to above average players I can't see Twins quite making it to A Tier.
I think I'd probably leave the rest of the killers in their current brackets. I could MAYBE see Doctor being B tier? 🤷♂️ But he does seem less effective nowadays so high C tier is probably ok.
I agreed with most of his stuff.
I think he still overvalues Spirit, Twins and Oni and underestimates Demo and Myers, but not by much.
As to yours:
- Onryo, no. Onryo may be tied with Trapper for the worst killer in the game. It's not that her stealth works sometimes - it's that her stealth is basically meaningless. The only thing she has going for her is traversal, and the only way to really make her functional is with gimmicky instadown stuff that other killers do better. She literally has no unique niche whatsoever.
- Pig? Absolutely not. She's always had high kill rates because of her chances to get instamoris based on bad luck. Her stealth is, like Onryo, pretty pointless.
- Trickster is about right at C tier. His ability to guard hooks and very rapidly destroy people at medium range is pretty good, he's just stupidly map dependent and doesn't do anything that Huntress can't do better.
- Dredge...nah, 'B' is about right. We aren't talking about 'average' survivors here, because that's a slippery slope. We're talking about high-intermediate to high MMRs. And against SWFs, stealth is meaningless. He's like a better Onryo, but nowhere near killers like Plague, Huntress and the other A tiers. And I say that as someone who basically mains him right now.
- Agreed on Twins.
- Doctor is definitely C tier - the lack of killer-side confirmation on shocks is just...oh, so bad.