Sava18
Sava18
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029473#Comment_4029473
We're talking about the DC penalty, not the go-next prevention.
Oh true. It should be one free penalty because I am oh so generous and then 10 minutes X2 thereafter. The integrity of the game is currently compromised by how often survivors dc. What's crazy is how horribly this has affected me as I have transitioned from a killer to survivor player. I cannot find the want to keep spamming normal games on survivor when the ones sabotaging me are the my teamates. I have no chance to win in 30% of my games and it's not because of whatever the killer is playing or how they are playing, it's because I have a teammate who gave up less than a minute into the match or had no intention of trying the entire trial. As bad as it feels to have someone hard tunneled out of the match especially while the killer is proxy camping the entire time(even though this isn't a very effective win con for killer) a survivor teammate losing the game for me off the rip is by far the worst and a hard majority of the time it's not because of slugging, camping, tunneling or an S tier killer, it's because someone got caught being oblivious off the rip and then played out the rest of the chase horribly.
The current give up/DC rate is so abhorrent and any real player couldn't possibly justify it. There are survivor problems that could be fixed, but even if they were it wouldn't matter, the community is semi doomed. They already got their mindset locked in, they can't be given enough EVER to change it.
I can go tune into some random killer streamer playing the worst loadout on the a sub B tier killer, a gimmick loadout even and people will DC/give up as they are being chased for the first time, 2 gens remaining. This is an epidemic, a plague on the game that will not be rectified by any concessions to survivor players.
I am not some biased killer player saying this. With the sheer amount of educational killer content out there killers in NA have the edge, simply because if a killer player goes out of their way to learn their role it's so much easier compared to the click bait for fun garbage survivor content creators are forced to dish out for views. BUT, I can't even comprehend how much lower the % of survivor players going outside the game to learn their role is compared to killers. I picked up killer in 2021 and binge watched otz and two one trick killers to get into the game. In equal parts playing and watching I easily surpassed 95% of killer players in 2 months. I tried my best to find the same content on survivor side a year later because the role has an immense skill ceiling. I found a very informative video from crush on how to play vs blight followed by 35 non informative videos just for views(again no blame, it's pretty forced).
The point being survivor have a mindset trickled down from the OG community of survivors where they could mess around for fun and then still get out, not even because they were that much better than the killer which is still possible. Survivors have a lower average skill at their own role compared to killer which is easier to pick up and has an extremely educational content creator community. Whereas survivors don't have a community like that and don't really want to go out of their way to learn their role and by extension how to play vs each individual killer.
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I will preface this with blight can stand to be nerfed so I hopefully don't get downvoted into the ground and that I haven't played that killer much in years.
Blight has a kit with the highest potential to be somewhat fair in chase while being the strongest just based off base-kit compared to any other killer in the game.
I will unfortunately say the opposite for ghost face and most of the low tier. Their kits simply can't facilitate much strength without becoming extremely unfair feeling and blatantly boring. Making ghost face b tier without significant kit changes would require something absurd like stalking from 0 to exposed taking 3 seconds and even then that might not make him b tier and would only send upset survivors to social media to complain. Same with trapper for example, you can only give him so much haste after trapping and so many traps at the start of the trial before survivors simply have 0 options in chase while the trapper will almost always still lose to great teams. Clown was my go to example on this topic before he got buffed to low b tier at best and was overwhelmingly hated by the community for it. Why? Because even though he wasn't anything even compared to A tiers, he felt terrible to play chase against.
In league there are a good chunk of champions that are similar in that by the time you get to masters, the champions kit simply starts to have low agency and impact when in lower tier lobbies it might do extremely well. As someone who used to main a sub-class of champions who all mostly have kits like that, It's completely fine in league, the ratio of champs like that to champs who are decent to great in higher elo is perfectly fine. In DBD the ratio is quite different though. A good 3rd of the killer cast have kits that can't facilitate real strength in stronger lobbies. Where dbd differs is player skill is overall lower by a lot, so it's much rarer to find lobbies you can't force most killers to work in if you are a good player yourself.
Typically, High B and most A tier are the most fun killers to play against or at least they are killers you can feel like they outplayed you. A good portion of bad killers feel like they will get that hit on you, it's just up to the map to decide when and not the skill level of either party.
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To all the people saying "we saw how well that worked last time" they didn't even make a functioning system. We didn't see how it would actually workout. The system failed because it was punishing loads of normal people. bhvr just messed it up, pretty much reverted it and left it, as always.
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When I played a lot a killer a couple years ago at this point I would just afk in the middle of the map. NO one is going to have fun that game regardless, unless a survivor was emoting me to chase. On survivor I still play the game normally.
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League is a good comparison but not in the way you made it out. People in league are almost always playing to win, people are not trolling with their builds or game play in more than 10% of games. It's a good comparison to dbd in the way of how opposite it is. Other than that I 100% agree, statistics and mmr in this game are highly nuanced because of the community mind-set and matchmaking. People talk about 43% solo queue escape rate like it's not completely irrelevant, if you are a real solo queue player you know every other game someone on your team is destroying your chances to win and more often than not they aren't actually trying to.
There is no incentive for survivors to actually try(not because the game is SO killer sided). There needs to be a ranked queue where survivors gain or lose mmr based on team results, at least as a test. But yes the current form of dbd renders statistics hard to properly judge. I'm not even sure the devs balance around the current Kill Rate because they know survivors troll and give up like they currently do or because they think killers need to be killing that much. I hope it's not the ladder.
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I'm not sure why they would use blood lust regardless. Haste isn't going to make a difference for blight and ghoul anyway. I feel like they think it does and that's why they switched to bloodlust but it really doesn't.
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@まうっす said:
Looking at the opinions on the forums, it seems like a lot of people are saying, "What's wrong with abandoning a game you're not enjoying?"
As a gamer, I don't really welcome the attitude of prioritizing one's own feelings and engaging in behavior that inconveniences other players.
It's really more of a dbd thing here, it's not really a gamer mind set. The only games I play that it's fine if people leave is battlefield, which has such large teams losing a player or two doesn't amount to much.
It really comes down to the roots of the game and that horror fans(who hold a good portion of the playerbase) are not prone to competitive games. You're not going to find a guy named "Michael_Myers_Fan" in a shooter, moba or fighter often if ever.
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This is absolutely the kind of rework trapper needs to be above D tier. No about of buffs will be both accepted by the community and enough to make him strong in his current state. The kind stuff all the C and D tier killers need.
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It's a long standing sentiment boiling over from the ideal of the game being a party game initially back in 2016. Even with the massive boost from the pallet dump, survivors are still annoyed over the dead silence on the tunnel/slug system after it not being instantly pushed through to live. Even new players still get the idea from older players over time that dcing/giving up is ok and it's actively reinforced in environment's like the forum and youtube comments. Players like me who only started playing due to friends while already maining pvp games who frown upon such conduct are rare, most players who play dbd don't have such roots on NA. There's also a ton of OG survivors who remember being able to win while messing around, like they should be allowed to be inefficient majority of the game and then win. That's just not the case anymore.
The mentality has been a thing since before I joined the game over 4 years ago and it will likely never change even if most players do consider it semi-competitive at this point. Which is unfortunately such a dumb statement.
The consistency you would notice over the years would be it's survivor mains who think this way(as much as I hate us vs them) players who start as killer mains have less of a chance to think this way, although not all of them. It's oddly enough the people on a team who only care about themselves regardless of winning who think this way. The truly selfish, at least those who do it consistently. The only thing I'll give these players is that mmr doesn't look at the survivor team as a whole, just the individual, even though most of them don't even care about that.
Anyway, there's a few more mediocre reasons than that, this is just what came to mind before bed. It's quite clear on the asia servers survivors care more about winning and that's the biggest difference of all.
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@Steakdabait said:
inb4 "well in high mmr" copium like mmr isn't some made up fairyland thing in this game
Isn't high mmr just the soft cap? If that's the case everyone who's even top 66% is in that category. It's def not 2k mmr plus, that's an extreme oddity for survivors to the point that the sample size for survivors would be far too low to draw real data from.
I could play one game on spirit who I haven't played in years and be above soft cap if I won.
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I love queuing survivor and being stuck in a game that's insta lose due to a teammate for the next 5 min. The rest of the survivors and the killer monotonously playing out a game no one wants to be in. The dc penalty isn't even that harsh.
I love a 3rd of my matches being a void in my irl time.
Also the timer doesn't tick down while off the game so you actually are penalized instead of queueing one OW quick play game before hoping back on to do the same garbage.
Also the you have to rage quit/ruin games on repeat to incur any sort of real penalty as the guy who got 1 upvote and 10 downvotes said, you all are just outing yourselves. You gotta be a repeat offender and then some to get to this state.
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@ranbuta said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016223#Comment_4016223
The average English proficiency among Japanese people, myself included, is low.
Japanese people can probably understand content on YouTube if they use automatic translation. However, I think it's extremely difficult to understand things like Twitch streams.But more than that, Japanese people know almost nothing about English-speaking Dead by Daylight creators. Even players who know about Otz probably don't make up even 30% of the total.
I think less than 10% of Japanese people discover videos by English-speaking players and can actually understand them.This is my personal observation, but Korean players seem more competitive than Japanese players, and their average English proficiency is also higher. Among them, probably over 30% can understand English content.
While Killer guides aren't plentiful, Survivor guides are quite abundant. Survivors are significantly more popular in Asia. Typically, Killer wait times rarely exceed 50 seconds.
I see, that's quite the opposite of english dbd content creation. Survivor content here is mostly made for views or to get "value" out of a build in a video only to get little to no value and run a killer far worse than the survivor. On the other hand you can binge watch killer content inbetween games and come out a stronger player than the average in a week.
As an off note I am surprised to learn Koreans have a better grasp of English over Japan, without ever looking into it I was under the opposite impression.
I will say the game does look like it would be more balanceable if players had a more Asian mind set in this game. The "party game" sentiment has been passed down like a plague when that era of dbd was already gone when I started playing over 4 years ago. The devs definitely tend to listen to whatever is the most cried about problem regardless of the side and actual impact right now. It's hard when the devs and playerbase they balance off of are so volatile. As a LoL player it's really hard to witness.
I had another question I was interested in asking you but I can't remember, If I do remember I'll ask.
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@ranbuta said:
There aren't many videos or guides in Japan that are useful for killer players. For example, Chucky was considered very low tier in Japan, and one reason for this was that various Chucky techniques were hardly known. (Another reason is that because selfcare usage is high, Hidey-Ho Mode wasn't very useful.)
Similarly, Wesker is currently considered quite low tier. The reason is the same: important techniques aren't widely known. These are often viewed in Japan as akin to bugs or glitches and don't spread widely. (Sharing such information often draws strong criticism.)
For these reasons, it's possible that killer players' techniques are underdeveloped.
Survivor play skill varies by player. However, on average, the skill level is somewhat high, while the number of extremely powerful players seems relatively low. (Of course, this is just my personal impression.)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016182#Comment_4016182
As I am not aware of english profeciency in asia, especially with the many different countries. What would you guess the % of killers are capable of understanding a content creator like OtzDarva in order to learn. Also, while there is a ton of educational killer content creators, survivors don't have that many resources to learn from. Would that be the same over there?
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@OsabaSama said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016184#Comment_4016184
I'm a Japanese 1500h player who mainly plays Skull Merchant. I reviewed my own recordings and found that in the last 25 matches, there were only two DCs. However, my skill rating isn't very high, so I'm not sure if this will be helpful... Also, I apologize for using Google Translate.
That's appreciated, I would also not apologize to anyone for using google translate :).
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@まうっす said:
Survivor players on Asian servers simply focus on repairing generators.
They don't go out of their way to threaten the killer with a flashlight, nor do they go out of their way to act as a meat shield.
Survivor players on Asian servers are like an army.
For this reason, the killer is always at a disadvantage on Asian servers.I'm very curious to know how often survivors give up on hook/disconnect early on in the game on the asia servers, if you could give me an idea.
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@tyantlmumagjiaonuha said:
I usually play on Asian servers, but occasionally play on servers in Europe, America, etc. via VPN, accepting the high ping. I play with streamers and friends. This statistic feels accurate based on actual experience. Survivor players on Asian servers play in line with the game's primary objective of fixing the Gen, so I believe their escape rate is higher.
On the other hand, I feel Western survivors don't prioritize escaping. They focus heavily on preventing hooks by stunning the killer or destroying hooks. On top of that, many users on the English forums loudly proclaim survivor powerlessness and killer OP, and I've been fed up with this gap for years. Whether you play to align with the game's core purpose or aim to crush your opponents—we're literally playing different games across regions.
Yeah I try and tell people that the escape rates are very skewed because of how many people aren't playing to win in NA and Europe. I'm not going to fault people for using funny sabo builds or playing in a very suboptimal way, but that mentality is going to reflect in the statistics which it very clearly does.
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@Alicia_Tried6041 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016136#Comment_4016136
So what if they do? Why is this all the sudden taboo? Just accept the win and that you outplayed said survivor. Don't punish people for it. The DC penalty should not even exist. It's ridiculous. All the time penalty is doing is pushing newer players away from playing the game.
The thing pushing new players away from the game would be their team leaving them all the time.
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Both blight and nurse can stand to be nerfed sure, but there is 0 evidence they are balancing the game around them. What have they added to the game that is making nurse weaker? A ton of filler pallets nurse can play easier than most normal tiles? Same with blight, do we really think blight can't easily play around these double pallets they keep adding? Nope. In fact a lot of these tiles are easier to play for him than older filler tiles. They have been moving this way map design wise for a long time and if anything it's hurting low to mid tier killers and doing nothing to the top.
Same with the proposed tunneling and slugging changes, people have just hated those things forever. They aren't targeted towards any specific killer.
Also The worst killers in the game can't really be buffed much, they just don't have the design to gain that much power without being extremely unfun for most survivors, look at what happened with clown who was always my prime example on this matter. Some of them you might be able to get to a low B tier without causing issues but not too many. Go look at otz's new tier list and outside of demo and myers there is very little left in each killers power budget in C tier. If anything the high B's have the most capacity to receive buffs.
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@Xray said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014790#Comment_4014790
They really need to stop buffing/nerfing killers based on numbers and nerf/buff killers based on what the community says more. Trapper has over 60% in terms of killrate but he is tied with Shape,Merchant in being the worst in the game right now. If the tutorial was overhauled and taught new players how to properly counter trapper his kill rate would be in the dumps.
Absolutely. I hate bringing up league so much but their statistics are sound and public along with a ton of devs streaming their thoughts on balancing. DBD is the opposite, the statistics they share are poor, they rarely balance off of perceived power and real power of the killers that is so completely obvious. I'll give it to them, they do have to play around an odd game and a playbase that isn't very good at their own game or who play for fun or legally quit the game, that's rough to deal with. BUT, they have had a ton high level content creators posting the essentially the same tier list except for new additions for over half a decade.
We know nurse is too strong, they know nurse is too strong but they can excuse her because half of her play rate is people first timing her and giving up.
On a personal note as someone who intrinsically understood the killer, blight was busted for a long time. Instead of nerfing him down to A tier the right way they remove the hug tech because of a loud minority who didn't even try to understand it at all, changed all his add-ons in boring ways without taking out enough power and didn't touch his the forgiving part of his kit being rush duration and recharge time. They could have kept hug tech nerfed most of his greens and purples besides alch ring which did need a rework, and his iris that needed a rework. Instead they end up reworking most of his add-ons in boring ways several time including weak or unproblematic add-ons. Now even though I doubt he'll be nerfed, if he does it'll just mean he's weaker in the worst ways while only getting more boring gameplay and add-ons in compensation.
Other than that they may have the idea that some killer's are strictly for low mmr/beginners like trapper and keep him weak on purpose instead of soft reworking them, although I highly doubt they think that way in any regard and use kill rate to leave him in an abysmal state. Same with a ton of the older low B tier and lower killers. The reason I mentioned soft reworking is because I don't think many of the older low tier have the capacity to be buffed to low A tier which imo is the community standard for killer strength. Maybe they don't deem it worth the effort when the people who main those killers will continue to do so.
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@I_CAME said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014330#Comment_4014330
100% this. I didn't even want 500 pallets on every map. Literally just do something about the S tier and arguably the borderline S tier killers and things would be fine. It's hilarious to me that Behavior's "solution" to over tuned killers was to make the game terrible for killers who aren't strong instead of just using the common sense approach. Even biased content creators like Otz agree that killers like Blight, Ghoul, etc should be toned down a bit. How they keep evading meaningful changes is beyond me. It would make balancing maps, perks, etc so much easier and better for the rest of the roster if you didn't have these extremely powerful killers messing it up.
In the context of dbd is otz really that biased though? He considers balanced killers high b low A. The only time he seems baised to me is when he's frustrated.
Even if we tone down S and high A killers down I have 0 faith bhvr will balance maps properly, they are already going into a higher pallet density, less safe mentality without realizing that's hurting lower tier killers more than anyone. Like genuinely other than nurse I don't think they are balancing for S tier killers period.
Even then they don't know how to properly nerf killers, blight got nerfed in the worst ways and is still too strong because of it and instead of reworking nurse straight up they just made her add-ons mid. They also don't understand the nuance of their own statistics that they are balancing around.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014416#Comment_4014416
Yup. The most enjoyable games for me are the ones where it could go either way. Those games are sadly rare.
That's where most people find enjoyment in pvp games and them being extremely rare in this game is really sad. It's why I find end game matches where "every survivor gets out or no one does" so fun on either side. It's also why I'm not a fan of one shot killer's as they deter both sides from playing that scenarios out.
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Timeline:
Mains hag playing her webs the right way, only camping basement sometimes= winning 80% of the time because survivors don't know how to deal with it
CoH gets released destroying hag web gameplay
Mains bubba for a while
Watches a hundred hours of otz and other gameplay = I am several times better at killer and already better than most killer players now(genuinely no ego as dumb as that sounds)
Mains neme and PH for months until I find lilith playing blight on haddonfield
Mains blight for a time
Every survivor running DH, IW, UB and CoH while I'm still being relatively new allows me to go all out without feeling bad or tunneling/camping.
Got bored of killer after 6.1.0. because I'm not mad at survivor builds anymore(I think?)
Survivors start trying to suicide sourcing me tunneling or camping when I haven't done either of those things since maining hag at least a year before, going out of my way to never chase a previously hooked survivor until they are healed for the most part. On top of that never going back to hook for a hit/trade.
Goes to learn survivor because it has an extremely high skill ceiling imo
Teamates give up in a winning position far too often.
Anything I do is irrelevant because my teamates can ruin anything I have accomplished with the communities support, AT A 30% RATE.
Realize a lesser player would just start ruining others games too, continuing the cycle.
Even with my want to get better at survivor and a friend who has wanted me to play survivor with him for a long time I can't stand losing due to my teamates giving up(especially when we are winning and they could still be safe).
My previously mained killer gets 1% of his power removed with the hug tech being deleted(survivors thought it was too hard to understand a blight shoving his face into something over .75 seconds and watching the floor for another .5 seconds is pretty easy to outplay), his collision being worse and his add-ons losing the title of best designed although far too OP, just to be still extremely strong relatively but boring as hell.
Play far less.
Can't want to master survivor because of the community and bubba, PH and neme are not fun enough to warrant repeat queueing.
Shouldn't have played the highest mastery killer so soon and shouldn't have expected even a 25% impact as survivor with a survivor stigma I already knew existed before picking up the role.
Play far less.
To be clear I never saw it as a party game until I joined the forum and saw people keep regurgitating that title. I joined in summer 2021 as a killer main and less than a week in every survivor was running hard meta for the most part. I started playing over 4 years ago and it has never been a party game in that time, people who think that way would have mained customs or swf, no other way to lead to that mentality at the time I joined.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014307#Comment_4014307
Because:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014306#Comment_4014306
There's no Killer bots yet, so the trial would end. If it's treated like it currently is when a Killer DCs, that'd be unfair for Survivors working toward Adepts and things of that nature. We'd have to have the abandon be considered a win, or we'd need Killer bots to be a thing.
As someone who never dcs I'm confused, killers don't get a loss when leaving after everyone abandons, why would survivors get a loss after the killers dc's forcing the game to be over? Like oh the killer can abandon in egc and the survivors would win, not that crazy, consistent with survivor abandons as well.
It's obvious how it would work. I genuinely don't care but in terms of equality I don't understand why this wouldn't implemented.
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@killer_hugs said:
they were just going to get changed into something that no one wants to use?
They're just extra clutter for chests and the bloodweb at this point lol
I was quite excited for them. If I am being hopeful then they are just leaving them in the dirt until they can make them consistent across each map. I do NOT want them to function as old IW were you just got to a tile and coin flipped a pre run for immense brain dead value, but I do want them to be good.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011491#Comment_4011491
In a similar scenario, I had three teammates all get slugged in shack in early game. Like your case, none moved, and they all stayed around the basement. I finished our one and only gen and walked over to the killler to make an appeal. It failed. Should I get a suicide penalty for that?
I've also had several recent killer matches where the survivor team failed to read my perks properly and all were downed a minute or so into the match. If people are already accruing hidden penalities for dying too fast because they screwed up, I don't want to cause that. And I definitely don't want it to get worse.
You are naming one off scenarios this is not something that happens even every other game, no matter the mmr.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011441#Comment_4011441
@OnryosTapeRentals there's the call for intent policing I was talking about lol
If you are getting penalized by this theorized lenient system off the top of my head you would have to be doing it on purpose. These systems work in other games. If a survivor who is not new is going down in chase in less than 15 seconds 50% of the time it's no longer funny or whatever, it's active inting the game. Even vs S tiers every game it would be a chore to have chases this short all the time.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011441#Comment_4011441
They don't log enough to know a killer is cheating when they're flying around the map and downing everyone within a few seconds of each other without the players taking video evidence and submitting it to them via YouTube. I sincerely doubt they have the tools to tell the difference between legitimate griefing and just having a bad match and I doubt they're willing to take the patch or 2's worth of dev time to get there.
I did say it would be over the course of a bunch of games, not individual and even with that this was just off the top of my head.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011324#Comment_4011324
Not having a proper penalty in place is allowing players with unsportsmanlike attitudes to abandon any matches they want for any reason.
It will just change forms if the penalities tighten. You said you have a DC about every third match. That's about how often someone tries to suicide out of my killler matches. I have daily matches where a survivor chases ne instead of me chasing them. I have locker spams, pallet slams, AFKing under hook, luck-offering unhooking into second stage, and suicidal body blocking. That's penalty-free in terms of automatic detection, as long as they don't die too fast. If people want to leave, they'll find a way.
Why is addressing that there's an issue on the survivor end of this game so hard?
I promise you, if the devs are smart and work with competent people within the dbd community they can make everything bar soft griefing able to penalized.
If people over 50 hours of game time are overall going down in less than 15 seconds reputedly, suspension. This negates griefing by walking up to the killer or suicidal body blocking while protecting new players. It would record that behavior over many games as to not hurt people having a funny interaction with the killer every 5 games. Same with afking, the system can be tuned to after a player has a decent chunk of time for them not to afk under hook without suspension. Luck offerings can be joutright removed. There are ways and they are truly necessary for this games long term health.
As others have said, survivors griefing each other actually leads to a repetitious cycle of survivors getting more frustrated. You can address the issues but the mentality will remain, one that's been around for a decade. With the communities current mind set you could outright remove tunneling, camping, slugging, every S tier killer and add the ability for survivors to ban 1 killer each, there would still be a 15%+ dc/suicide rate. So both things need to be addressed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010474#Comment_4010474
That’s not allowed to happen though. Look at what happened with Clown. He was actually decent for a while, and it got so many complaints that he’s back to being useless.
Like, people can say “oh, let’s buff the weaker killers”, but it’s not actually allowed to happen in any meaningful way because it just gets complaints.
Because weaker killers don't have kits that can facilitate them being stronger without a rework. There's 0 way to make legion an A tier killer without removing any and all interaction they have without a full rework. What would you do for trapper? Make him place traps down so fast a survivor can't make it to the next pallet. It's just not possible to get these bad killers to a Wesker or spirit or oni level.
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I mean he has a few points but also some that are just rambling.
Maps: Map sizes have generally been quite reduced, so they are not balancing around blight in that aspect. The trash fillers they keep adding actually are better for blight to play around than older ones that it would usually be better for him to break. I can also pretty much guarantee the devs don't have any particular killer in mind when forcing these higher pallet density less strength mentality. Also gas heaven was balanced for blight? That map was like that before blight and was simply left like that for too long.
Aura perks: His only real point was that blight can turn his brain off with far ranged aura perks, sure but that doesn't make him stronger. A good blight or even just a good killer don't need those aura perks to dictate what their doing, there's a reason the strongest players don't run bbq or floods often on him. I'll give him one and it's that old tinkerer was too strong on blight, especially with old ruin/undying and that may have legit been nerfed directly because of him.
Base kit: With the base line kit nerfs he is most definitely not on nurses level. While yeah you definitely can't reduce rush speed as the would destroy his chase, duration or recharge time could be reduced. It's not like nurse where she can't even catchup if you reduce recharge time.
Also I know he's talking about base kit but when before nurse and blight had add-ons touched and nurse still had basic attacks on power hit, blight could only match her because of how absurd his best add-ons were, somewhere between 200-400% theoretical power increase. The nerfs and reworks to his add-ons significantly brought his power level down.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011159#Comment_4011159
My advocacy is for addressing root problems instead of band-aid fixing things, not for DC'ing. I am stating again that I am not advocating for DC'ing, but rather for addressing causes.
Like I said, I do not know why you brought it up. It is clear that the reasons do not matter to you, so I do not know why you brought up what you thought people were DC'ing over. Even if it wasn't trivial, in your opinion, it wouldn't matter.
So BHVR should continue to add in Killers like SM? Things they know people hate and people should just take it, right? That's the right thing to do? They should release more Killers like Krasue and Ghoul in an extremely overpowered state and then never adjust them. I don't think either attitude is entirely correct.
Community is different than BHVR, thank you for clarifying.
So, all we need to do is somehow get everyone on the same page by enforcing some kind of groupthink and then start banning normal players! Make no mistake, that's exactly what you are asking for.
Let's break down exactly what will happen. You will never achieve your first objective, and I suspect you already know that.
We up the DC penalty. Let's say we make it far more punishing, the first is an hour ban. The second is a 24-hour ban. Three times? A week. So on and so forth.
What will people do? Well, they can't DC and they can't suicide. They will AFK.
Alright, well, let's ban for inactivity, same penalties as before.
Now they can't AFK, DC or suicide. People start running to the Killer.
We can ban for that too, if you get hit without making enough distance post-hit, you get banned like if you DC'd!
Now they can't DC, run to Killer, suicide or AFK! People start soft-throwing chases.
Now you have to start banning for intent.
Does this seem like a path you wish to pursue?
I will always bring up how in league, the game a ton of people think has a worse community than dbd this isn't a problem. You'll watch someone blame someone completely, say they're going to run it down and afk, then they don't. They go mid, they go side, the go farm and then most of the time show up to fights too. You can't leave the game, you can't afk, you can't type very harshly at all anymore, you can't hard int anymore. Best you can do is soft grief and that's more work than actually playing, so people actually play. That's the key line, when it's more work to leave/grief the game people will play it out. They'll go sit on a gen.
The "they'll just grief the game in a different way" has always been conjecture because we really have never had a decent period in dbd where people were forced to stay in the game in all forms.
Even if the devs fix that "root causes" that everyone has been saying since I joined this forum, the mentality is so ingrained in survivors they will keep doing it. Most of the time people bring up survivors dcing on this forum it's because they are doing it over nothing, not because of whatever semi understandable thing happened to them that game.
Is there any real reason not to add in these penalties and also fix the issues people have with it? So we punished tunneling, slugging, camping and whatever other reason, can we also put the penalties in too? I see 0 reason not to.
If you do reply please do not say but this is an assym.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009747#Comment_4009747
No pallet ever has less potential than a 50/50 unless a killer's kit specifically makes it so. Even the worst filler pallet that leads to nothing inherently has a point of interaction where it is 50/50 against any killer with zero anti-loop. The argument then becomes about whether killers should be able to bring a pallet under a 50/50, but outside of other variables (like kits/powers, positioning, or latency) potentially no pallet is weaker than that.
Honestly, with the amount of antiloop that has been spread across as many killers as it has, it might be time to consider giving a form to the rest, while upping the minimum safety of pallets across the board. If filler pallets are a 1 and god pallets are a 10, maybe we should give every killer something to work with while simultaneously starting pallet strength around a 3 or 4 at minimum. As it stands, people find different things to focus on with the topic as there is too much turbulence in regards to things like how pallet interactions should play out for either side. If nothing else, this type of normalization would help keep the minimum interaction strength to a true 50/50, though it should similarly normalize the opposite end (aka weaken god pallets slightly, like a 7 or 8) as well to keep the average in the middle.
Seems like a lot of work, but its the kind of approach that would be needed to normalize how oppressive or useless killers can be vs certain pallets. And since the ones who get dunked on the most by strong pallets tend to also be the ones who rely more on bloodlust, it would do quite a bit to hem in the extremes and allow for better balancing with pallets on a conceptual level. They might even end up being ok with god pallets staying around a 9 if the weakest killers end up less helpless against them. As it is, its hard to define 50/50's with almost any pallet because those variables like killer antiloop will always shift it in either direction.
I disagree, there are many pallets in the game now that are worse than ormond outside table pallets, just remove the longside and the is no world where a competent m1 killer gets stunned or doesn't get the hit in less than 10 seconds max. It's 100% on the killer to mess up the interaction thus meaning it's not a 50/50. Typically there is a max of 3 god pallets on a map excluding the game, it's supposed to be guaranteed safety for an amount of time. It sets an amount of strength that is reliable and knowable by both sides. god pallets are completely fine in minimal amounts, saturating maps with "1/10s" does neither side any good, they might as well be pallets designed towards comp with them wasting such little time. 1-2 god pallets, 3 good tiles, 2 weak tiles and the rest being filler tiles akin to MacMillan rock, pallet, tree, rock fillers is the best way to go by far. So essentially the autohaven and macmillan maps before they got changed 2 or 3 years ago. It's why those maps used to have their offerings used every other game by both sides, fairness and consistency.
It would be better to keep that previous standard and rework all of the terrible killers with no ability to play tiles because they lack the ability to be buffed directly without feeling extremely boring/unfair in chase. You can try your best to make fillers and gods more playable for trapper and freddy but they are the minority now, they need to be changed directly not the pallet system.
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@TheGoon224 said:
So I’ve been trying to find a new main since Skull merchant got gutted in October of last year but Dbd has kinda been making that hard for me since because I swear it genuinely feels like the game just doesn’t want me to play killer because
- Skull merchant got gutted last year and is getting reworked into dashslop.
- I was extremely hyped for Springtrap until I was just drop kicked by disappointment
- Sadako was changed so many times to the point where I don’t know what she dose anymore
- Trapper gets nothing every update
- Myers and Pig were turned into Dashslop
- Houndmaster is a bug fest
Like seriously who do I main at this point? Like I'm genuinely curious.
(I was going to post this tomorrow, but I accidentally hit the button while editing this.)
Skull merchant was an irreparably bad kit for both sides
Feel free to be disappointed with springtrap but it's not like they are boring to play or super generic with their heavy hatchet
Sadako might as well be compared directly to tombstone myers with how terrible they were outside of one playstyle.
Traper has actually gotten a ton even if that doesn't increase his tier much, although increasing his tier significantly would result in trash gameplay too(it's ok if so entry level killers aren't good due to their kits)
Pig was always dash based and pure trap gameplay is just boring for everyone(m1 sim while one dude tries to force chase ig)
Myers? Sure, whatever. Unless referring to tombstone
No comment on houndmaster.
Every killer you mentioned besides Houndmaster, springtrap and trapper have all been extremely problematic when viable to the point were I'm sure majority of survivors would rather face old alch ring blight than play against those killers in their optimal way. Between old skull merchant and sadako it's like you wait for bhvr to drop killers that are by default d tier unless played in the most anti-gameplay way possible.
I've mained bubba, blight, P-head, neme and hag being my first. A very wide variety, I am not being biased towards you, it just seems you have locked yourself in on very trash designs for some reason.
If you pick based on theme and visuals then you're just plain unlucky.
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@Yamskeezy said:
every killer since the unknown has been overtuned, we get a couple more pallets. Get over it.
It's not even good for you. What happens when all of these terrible filler pallets are broken? A bunch of rocks doing absolutely nothing for you. At least when a map is predominantly spawning older tiles you're left with windows to play around, now you just have to drop these trash pallets like you're playing vs clown only to have 0 game play later.
It's good for no one, watering down gameplay on both sides. Uh oh I decided to play blight again and you gotta drop every pallet because it's all connected to a 1 square meter rock and nothing else. Uh oh, these tiles are just dead now and so are you.
14 pallets with 4 tiles and half the filers being worth something is far better than 22 pallets, 80% of them being filler and 65% of those fillers being worth nothing but a pre drop that still gets you hit. Does unknowns map feel good to play on except vs low tier killers? I bet it doesn't.
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As a former killer main I find it baffling that bhvr has more and more moved to a less safe higher pallet density mindset. I don't want to be playing trash fillers all the time as either side. LT's, Long walls and short walls are all great. But they keep adding in at best weird non filler tiles that are just out right weaker and m1 killer outplayable guaranteed along with a bunch of pallets so weak it's not even a 50/50 at best anymore.
Of course something like old cold wind fillers that might as well have been god pallets was too strong, but they are pulling away from the middle ground and going weaker. Unknowns release map is a prime example.
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@Unequalmitten86 said:
on paper with a select amount of player she was probably balanced. This is why the PTB is useless to gain real data. The player pool is small and selective. You don’t have newbies playing you have seasoned streamers mostly or seasoned players. Yes they can exploit certain points but that is not the base player group. You have a massive amount of console players that seem to be neglected and each update makes it worse. Only opening the PTB to basically streamers on PC is very short sided and won’t give you the full aspect of benefits or drawback's. It’s like a clinical test without the placebo.
If she was balanced on paper it was because your average killer play loaded up the ptb, played two games and never played her again because of queue times. She was already strong by seasoned players standards and the only complaint was a little bit of clunkyness. Console is never going to get ptb because the absurd processes companies have to go through to get xbox and PS to push stuff through, making what is essentially a 4 day test not worth or maybe even feasible to push to console.
While that last paragraph was pretty objective, imo letting average console players hard dictate data over a few day period would actually yield worse results. A console player picking up blight is going to make him look bad by nature, not that he doesn't have a skill floor on pc, the result will just have far less disparity from the killers actual strength.
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I understand your nostalgia but It's quite clear why these things were changed. It creates nuance around a maps strength depending on luck, perks and players playing around stealth. While the game has taken a hard chase oriented turn driven by both sides.
Although the atmosphere and feel of the game was probably better and I'm not sure why cold wind(image number 7) got lit up to high noon.
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I'm pretty sure otr has been confirmed to be getting hotfixed. On pain res though making it 12% when it's by far the most healthy slow down perk killers have would be just odd. Although I'm not sure why the some perk changes went through when the changes they were based off of didn't. I'm quite certain they literally just forgot to remove those changes or a conversation between the devs got misunderstood. Someone got lazy is my best guess.
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@BbQz said:
I mean the pulled it because of public Outcry. To say anything other then that is just cope.
If no outcry existed they would have kept tweaking numbers during the PTB they would have been talking with the community fixed issues as needed or encountered. It's highly possible deciding to send it back to cook longer would have been the end result regardless but none of the previous steps were taken because of the panic happening here and everywhere else.
In fact the ######### storm was so huge even community managers stopped posting on the forums all together until recently as we have seen the fire is mostly just smoldering now but mainly on the survivor side which behavior never have a problem with.
This would make any since if they have EVER iterated on a ptb as it was up.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003136#Comment_4003136
I've said this before and I will continue to repeat it:
People have always had pretty reasons for doing dumb things. The "go next epidemic" is not because people have become more petty. It's a product of gameplay changes over time, and it's a general game health indicator.
When it got really bad, the devs listened to people like you, who said they should just punish and fix nothing. That's how we got launch crows being way overtuned and go next. Which, btw, go next will currently punish survivors for the killer tunneling hard.
Competitive pvp games have instant feed back and allowing people to leave on a whim lets them make an instant irrational action on that feedback, ruining the game for everyone else. What you said holds minor merit, what I said always holds true.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003126#Comment_4003126
They listened to the loud minority screaming "punish them" instead of the much larger group asking "can you make the gameplay not suck so that people naturally want to play it out?"
The jury is still out as to whether or not the second group will ever actually see those changes.
That would make since if people didn't give up over nothing, at the start of the game, due to their own mistakes. There's a difference between bled out and instantly going next on a whim. I've had far too many people get hooked for the first time at 2 or 3 gens remaining with 4 hooks total on my team let go. It has to be punished, no amount of "fixing the game" will prevent this.
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000996#Comment_4000996
So you're saying "i'm 100% right and all the downvotes on my comment are biased survivors or dumb people not understanding the game", I don't know why post on forums if you're not open to debate, your comment missed the point it's not even about balance
If your teammate is killed early in the match it shouldn't result in an automatic death for the 3 remaining players, that's what this patch aimed to fix. Right now early 1v3 is literally a free win if killer is half decent you can just go next, obviously awful design, it's not balanced in the slightest but more importantly it's not fun, you guys easily forget games are meant to be fun
Yeah man, that's what I said for sure. It wasn't that I have seen a ton of neutral takes not criticizing the upcoming changes but saying maybe it's ok that it's pushed back for refinement, nope I was saying everyone is wrong.
"But the killer side is heavily favored but is it because of killers or people who play the role? Killers are over represented on the forms and as streamers And in groups of long term players that "prefer" the role."
That's what I replied to, which is just completely a lie and 100% an radical opinion.
Your second paragraph I'll disregard entirely because I never disagreed with it and if you've seen my other comments you'd know I agree with it. You just assumed a ton of stuff about me, misinterpreting what I said into a hard killer take in your head and then commented on it.
If you look at all the comments I've made, you'd see my opinion on kill rate which the non-competitive dbd players don't understand, because they have never delved into a real competitive games statistics and the nuance of them. DBD being a little special in that field because you have to account for survivor who troll whether they think they are or not, chest build, trying to steal chase, not doing gens prioing quests/challenges, messing around with friends in a game they could win but just want to play around. That's just how survivor is, I'm not even judging but there are just so many more reasons to troll. While playing killer there are VERY few reasons to troll yourself. The other comments you'll see from me is all the changes to tunneling and slugging are fine bar tenacity and maybe reducing hooks required to proc anti tunnel to 5.
I'm quite certain this is the first comment you've seen from me since I came back a couple weeks ago and assumed the worse, but go off I guess.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000996#Comment_4000996
The current state of the forum doesn't show anything. When the patch was first announced the forum was on fire with killer-sided posts. Fog vials were the same way. Whatever side isn't getting their way is the loudest at any given time.
There are a few exceptions present, but If you have a side at all, you're probably not objective. And it seems like whichever side people personally favor also manages to have the more objective and unbiased opinions from their perspective. Funny how that works out.
I don't personally favor a side and if I did it would be survivor as of now. It's just true that the large majority of killer content creators are more objective and info based than content based. It's nearly impossible to find a teacher based survivor content creator.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000815#Comment_4000815
because a lot of
survivor squads just throw. Part bad matchmaking, part emotions, part straight-up inefficient play.
But so do killers. You can't dismiss KRs because they don't show what you want them to.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000853#Comment_4000853
oufm, not hard to do the math:
We've been over this before: Stop trying to math this game out. It is far too complex to do so. You're accounting for a grand total of zero complexities and are even assuming the killer is AFK most of the time in your example.
The reality is that no game works out according to the numbers.
Remember that motte-and-bailey thing? You're back on your witch hunt for the immaculate survivor team.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000950#Comment_4000950
I don't know that I'd say Survivor is the power role
There is a spot where they are the power role, and that's with the process of hooking. That's where the killer has to respond to survivors instead of the other way around.
I personally think that that should be looked at, but I think that might be, as the kids say, a hot take.
I think it's exceptionally fair to say that survivors throw at a far greater rate than killers. I've made several comments in the past few days centered around that and I would say it's quite conclusive. 1 survivor in any game can decide it's gg outside of extreme skill disparity. 47% escape rate, pre map nerfs, god validation dh, bugged IW, prime CoH, when killers had weaker perks, when killers were generally weaker and when there were few killers A tier and above. Not to mention plague, oni, spirit and nurse not exactly being high play rate killers when outside of blight they were the only a+ tier killers.
Survivors always have and always will throw their game at a far greater rate than killers. It's just how it is and people who play survivor outside of 4 mans will know that to be the case.
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@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999930#Comment_3999930
Or.. "fixing" ghoul makes his value proposition lower and him being new means more money. We see this with new killers all the time.
But the killer side is heavly favored but is it because of killers or people who play the role? Killers are over represented on the forms and as streamers And in groups of long term players that "prefer" the role.
So there is a lot of incentive for these big loud groups to "gate keep" or fight back against anything that takes a inch from them or a perk that is inconvenient. It really is a shame because issues on survivor sides are severely under reported which is why it takes literal ages for fixes or balance changes to come see camping tunneling slugging 3 gening and other issues.
Killers are overly represented on the forums? Like they are more than 1 in 4? These posts over the last week or so show how blatantly wrong you are. Look at my comment on page 1, it's so neutral, not favoring either side and yet it has double down votes over upvotes. whether that be because people just lack knowledge or it's survivor mains down voting me without thinking, this last week most definitely shows there are more than 50% survivor mains on the forum.
When you talk about streamers that's just because survivor youtubers and streamers make pure content way more than they project their view, whereas it seems players who are originally killer mains are much more objective oriented. Not to say there aren't killer mains projecting an immensely biased view on the forums but all of the popular threads are neutral and wary at worst.
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My absolute favorite game is an all or nothing end game, everyone lives or everyone dies, at least from killer pov. But it's been quite a long time since that happened to me and even when I played killer a ton it was an extremely rare scenario requiring a competent and willing survivor squad. A survivor will UB or deli when I've thought I've won only to come back in to start picking people again instead of leaving. Can probably count that experience on a single hand but man is it great.
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@Rulebreaker said:
A problem with that is the ranked mode ones would be using any "casual" que as their own personal stomping grounds. This would be what we have now (win at all costs sweats, toxic players who just want to make others miserable, random casuals who want to play, newbies all mixed in) aka the "casual" que and a 99% full sweat mode aka the "ranked" que. Nothing would stop people from running full meta sweat vs "casuals" and adding limits to the "casual" que…doesnt really make it "casual" then does it? Just a que with different rule sets. All the while the player base would be split and que times extended on both ends.
It wouldn't really help much overall.
So nothing would change for the normal queue and the ranked queue if mmr was tight would lead to better games for at least some players. Sounds like there only be the negative a queue split and higher quality games for others if done right.
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@burt0r said:
The fact that one side never could play with friends, outside of private lobbies, (for the first 6-7 years of the games release) against people that most often would do everything to ruin the others sides day for their own fun dismisses dbd from being a party game in my opinion.
It was for the first like year or maybe two that survivors couldn't swf, what.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
When has a ranked mode ever solved anything?
I’m sure people would love it, but it wouldn’t solve anything
People don't generally queue ranked to mess around, thus leading to more consistent games.