Sava18
Sava18
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@Firellius said:
They have openly stated that they do favour the killer, at least in terms of balancing.
While dbd is skewed towards killer right now, them balancing towards a higher kill rate rather than a 50/50 is simply because of how survivors play themselves. At an average of 47-48% escape rate survivor was blatantly broken, and now that we are at an average of what 43% killer is overtuned. They have to balance with these odd numbers in mind because 5% of all survivor games are auto lost because of a single survivor or more playing to lose in whatever facet you make of that. In the current system with no consistent emphasis on survivors playing to win, 45-46% is probably about even between the two roles. In a world of a well made ranked queue, that could be balanced closer to 50/50 because you wouldn't have to think about random survivors hiding, playing chest builds, trying to steal chase while doing absolutely nothing, ect…
Statistics in this game simply don't reflect the actual state of the game atm because of all these factors.
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My post here is why I've started to advocate for a ranked mode. This game isn't mario party level of unbalancable, there are not that many rng factors in comparison. Each killer would have their own mmr just like the game does rn, and the devs could get real stats to make changes to the game.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
DBD used to have ranks in the past.
Those weren't really ranks though were they?
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999850#Comment_3999850
I'm in the middle on this. I think healthy competition is good for DBD, but ever since MMR it's been balanced for the type of competition that doesn't fit this genre. You can't balance from the top down, nor can you add changes to make the game better for those in the middle on top of that to try to ease the tension. Ideally it has to favor the middle at all times, which means leaning more casual and toward healthier competition. It's why I think all of these changes can help, but they're just avoiding the elephant in the room of including a scaling difficulty system.
Ofc you can't balance for the top end in dbd, especially since way more than other pvp games a ton of the community doesn't actively try to get better. If dbd had a ranked system that worked like other games then the average would be silver and the top 1% would start as low as platinum.
My problem with people using numbers in this game is that a ton of survivors go into game doing some goofy build or fighting over chase while avoiding gens. There's no way to exclude games where survivors are essentially down a player from the start or even a 4 man who just play to mess with the killer until they get put down 15 min in. On the flip side there aren't alot of killer players putting themselves at a glaring disadvantage from the get-go.
With all that said maybe a comp mode is the solution so these problems can be avoided. I really don't think the argument of "sweats" all queueing normal is a real issue anyway, maybe nothing would change for normal players but a lot of people would have a more consistent queue to go into. Then bhvr would have more real numbers to work with and wouldn't have to actually balance towards killer being 60% anymore. Like at the end of 2021 during god validation DH, bugged IW, CoH pre hard nerf meta survivors were at like an average escape rate of 47-48% but it was data mined that during peak hours on NA there were less than 800 killers playing, clearly showing how skewed the game was towards survivor at that time regardless of the negative escape rate. I would say right now it's skewed towards killer for sure. All that to say until we get a more consistent mode to draw better stats from, they don't mean much.
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@OrangeBear said:
They're likely doing both. Devs only have like a week to decide changes between PTB and live release and considering the complexity of these systems its very risky to only iterate on it once.
Ideally they could keep the the PTB and update it quickly instead of waiting for the next one but i suppose the problem is the release of the new chapter as well as killer updates they need to finish up for release as well.Yep I think your last line is what ended up happening here.
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Nah, ever since his rework I've just seen EVERY Billy play at his skill floor, which is back revving. No curves, no playing loops, just break pallets until back rev. It's so boring.
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I think that if the community wants the game to get these base line changes for more enjoyment they need to realize that leaning towards competitive is better for them. Working out all of the unenjoyable parts and balance around it will make the game better but slightly more competitive. comp doesn't mean sweating, it just means balancing for people who are playing to win(NOT hardcore tunnel level but just not trolling). You can't balance out really strong "strategies" as much as I hate that word in dbds context without thinking of people actually trying to win.
People playing chest builds with no intention of winning don't really get to have an opinion what's enjoyable from their perspective or other people.
It's really hard to put into words but that's the gist of it.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997991#Comment_3997991
It's not just "one sided survivor" players who think this update should go through (after some changes of course). Tunnelling doesn't just affect survivors. It helps mask issues that weaker killers desperately need addressed by artificially increasing their killrates and making them appear fine on the surface. In the same vein, those who increase their MMR faster than they should will then come here complaining about swfs every single game because of course theyre getting more difficult opponents at a higher MMR bracket. What else did they seriously expect? Falling back into appropriate MMR brackets will improve the feel of the game for everyone.
The benefit i do think it will have for survivors is it making the game more attractive, especially for new players, as it removes the negativity bias they develop every time they get tunnelled out. This also benefits killer by helping with queue times.
You wanna talk about downvotes, I guarantee alot of killer mains will throw some my way. Goes both ways.
I fully agree with you, like everything you said. It wouldn't bother me personally one bit if the changes got pushed through other than the game incentivizing kicking gens more and more when it's kinda my bit to never to do so(obviously irrelevant). It's just not a killer sided take to say something like 6 hooks is a bit much or base kit tenacity shouldn't be a thing or that it's not crazy to push this back one patch for refinement. Those comments shouldn't be met with 4 upvotes and 36 downvotes. Both sides drop crazy takes on this forum but the neutral ones from a slight killer perspective are met with massive downvotes. The mecca person will say the most anti-killer, survivor biased thing and be met with a positive upvote ratio. It's a simple observation and it makes it hard to take this forum seriously.
A month or two back I said the kill rate numbers are always going to look bad because of how many survivors in any mmr just play for fun one game or troll or whatever else, even 4 man swfs will go into a game just to mess around even if they could walk on a killer. A chest build is innate trolling and game losing behavior but you can't fault people for using a build for fun(it just means they are lowering their chances to win).Like 4 mans in god validation dh, prime CoH, 100% bugged IW and UB had 47% escape rate. 50% escape rate even above the soft cap would indicate survivors are broken. That comment got like 20 downvotes and 3 upvotes. That's not an absurd thing to say and it's not even killer biased, anyone who plays survivor would know I'm right unless they are exclusively playing to win in 4 mans. People just don't know the nuance of statistics in regards to their multiplayer game.
With all that said the tunneling and slugging changes with very minor tweaks should be pushed through and the game is slightly killer sided on average imo right now. It doesn't help the playerbase isn't very competitive and don't go out of their way to learn.
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I mean I never kill someone before 6 hooks myself but hooking 1 survivor, hooking another, back to first, hook another survivor and back to first again is most definitely not tunneling. That would be a very broad way to look define tunneling even if I think going back to hook often is boring.
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I honestly don't know why they added down votes to the forum, even the most supremely neutral takes will have 30 down votes. I have been more on the survivor side for nearly a couple years at this point but it's pretty obvious by the down votes of certain posts and replies how many one sided survivors there are here.
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There was no negative impact from the complaints, only positive. How would it not be worth?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965316#Comment_3965316
I must have missed your response here, but I'll expand:
The kate hasn't touched a gen all game and is trailing the killer with a flash light, could be a 4 man, could be solo queue but it's all too common.
Well, the game is designed this way. The game largely used to be "casual" or "party game" where, sure, people could mess around and have fun, but in the past 3 years or so has been switching over to a more "serious PvP/competitive" mindset. There's still an ongoing debate in the community as to whether this is a "casual experience ruined by hyper-competitive balance and mentality", or "a competitive PvP experience that is ruined by people who don't take it seriously."
And when I say the game is designed this way, I'm not just talking about the lack of any competitive features. In basically any other competitive PvP game, you know your teammates kit, can natively (through the game) actively communicate through voice, text, or pings, and in some games you can even see your teammates' cooldowns. Those are all lacking features in DbD, for better or worse.
But on top of all that, and separately, the game actively encourages, rewards, and incentivizes this kind of gameplay. In most games, the "daily" quests boil down to "play the game" or "win", or "complete X by trying". So you can complete those for rewards simply by doing what you would normally do: play the game. And, for killer, this is largely the case.
DbD quests for survivors are at least half the time "choose between completing this quest or winning", or "actively throw the game". The literal design of the game encourages some of this behavior.
There has been no base-kit buffs after 6.1.0 that why I am so obviously focused on perks.
Uh. This is just flat-out completely wrong. Even if, if, I accept that you're talking exclusively about things that affect all killers, it's still wrong. And maybe I haven't gone into that list in this thread, but here's why focusing on perks is completely missing the point:
Even if I limit the list to only your extremely limited, blinders-on, "it has to involve all killers or it doesn't count" viewpoint, you still have: hooks respawning, base kit kick buffed to 5%, bloodlust buffs, survivors spawning together by default, base kit lightborn on locker grabs, map offerings effectively deleted, maps made smaller, pallets and tiles weakened, tile and pallet spawn logic reworked to prevent chaining, entire maps and realms reworked.
And that just is a partial list off the top of my head, limited to things that affect "every" killer, post-6.1, because you put those artificial restrictions in place. That doesn't include the fact that they've been touching 2-4 killers individually basically every major patch to improve their kits, ranging from simple QoL buffs, to partially making add-ons base kit, to making entire Iri add-ons base kit. It also completely ignores anything nerfed on the survivor side either.
And all of that contributes to increased kill rates that have successfully been driven higher over that same time span.
Most of the time, when people focus on killer perks, it's because they don't want to look at any of those details, because regression is the only thing they desperately want. It amounts to "well, all of that is nice, and don't ever consider taking any of it away, but give back gen kick meta levels of regression or we won't be happy".
Freddy being the most deadly killer in the game only backs up what I am saying about kill rates, EVERYONE knows he's not strong. Actually feeding into him being strong means you think a beyond whatever killer is worth anything strength wise. Do you really think freddy is stronger than nurse, blight, artist and P-head? You'd have to be essentially a silver player to actually agree with that statement.
This is partly what I mean by cherry picking. I never said Freddy was "strong" or "the best", because that's all subjective. I use the wording "deadly" because we have that data: In every MMR, every rank, and every level of play, right now, Freddy is topping the kill rate stats at around 70%. And I say "deadly" also because I can recognize that isn't a complete picture, nor does it make him an easy kit to use. But the roughly 70% kill rate is hard data, and not subjective.
But for a killer who is generally considered "weak" and "M1", it's interesting that people are producing these results. There's obviously something else going on there, but it's not just a "skill issue" or "survivors aren't bothering to learn counterplay", since it's the same thing at "top MMR" also.
But if you can take a "weak" "M1" killer and kill 70% of the survivors you face, there's not really a ton of room to argue that killers are overall struggling, or in a bad place. The kill rate is an indicator, and specifically one that BHVR uses to balance. You can't just ignore it completely, and it's healthy to acknowledge that there are other factors as well.
I seriously doubt anyone who says "kill rates don't matter", because those same people would burn the forums down in the rates were reversed right now, and killers were pulling about 40% kill rates instead of 60-70%. In fact, if you continue with this line of thinking, I'll just have to assume you're perfectly ok with reducing kill rates. Y'know, since they don't matter.
I don't actually don't care if kill rates go down, I am an anti-killer player at this point because majority have such a bot play style. There are just far too many things in dbd that make these numbers irrelevant as someone who tracks and understands WR/BR/PR to an extremely high level in games where numbers matter.
Again, freddy isn't good. There is no world where his low skill floor makes him have a 70% kill rate. His slowdown is bad, his tp is ok and his chase is ok, WE BOTH KNOW THIS. Also I never said killers are overall struggling they are most definitely not, the point is even when survivors were objectively op with god meta they still had less than a 50% escape rate in every mmr. Old nurse and blight didn't have close to a high enough pickrate for a 4 man swf to make sense having less than a 50% WR in that meta in particular when that patches stats were released.I have literally never kicked a gen and other than ruin and pops previous nerf I've never disagreed with a regression perks nerfs. My opinion on that topic is not skewed by the fact that I was maining blight for a long time as I mained several very different killers before and after him.
The top killers have been objectively nerfed, the killers that are buffed up until p-head have not been top tier. Killer meta isn't even close to top 3 strongest perks right now.
It's unfortunate but due to the playerbase this game will not have viable numbers to balance off of unless they are extreme. There are an infinite number of changes the devs have made that didn't make the game more balanced they just felt like it or the infinite number of casual players(I say this cautiously because good players are not good at this game in respect to most games) cried about something they don't know anything about.
Whatever though, freddy is op and the B- tier killers getting nerf and buff adjustments at the same time equate to a killer buff.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965316#Comment_3965316
The thing about nurse "nerfs" can kind of be applied to what you said about demo. All that was "nerfed" was her attacking being made a special attack after a blink, and her addons for range being toned down.
"Thats like saying buffing red harring to c tier is a survivor buff"Can kind of be applied in her case. She really didnt get any level of nerfs that did anything in the end.
Same can be said for blight honestly. He has not really moved from the number 2 position in any meaningful way, other than the fact the devs released broken Kaneki. Knocking him down a rung to 3.
I would say kill rates mean … something in the game not nothing.They are definitely tainted by what you talk about though. Give ups/throws/odd plays/just learning counter on a new released killer
By an large though I think they do, on average, show the strength of killers across the entire community.Freddy being the most deadly killer in the game only backs up what I am saying about kill rates, EVERYONE knows he's not strong.
I disagree though.
Freddy, is a pretty strong killer all things considered. He has traversal, great chase potential. Everything a killer would need. I think hes an all round great killer.
Just mechanically disappointing for some @GeneralV sorry you dont like what they did to him 😥
And a perfect balance of give and take. He has a teleport/traversal, but cant spam it and it has a good reactionary tell. He has undetectable but a lullaby. He has a slow with ample time to react but also strong enough when it hits to deny loops. He also has the pallet blower upper thing, which I havent seen land in any of my games. And lastly a mechanic for survivors to interact with to counter some of his kit (clocks)
TOP MMR kill rate shown to us being equal with blight does make me throw a bit of question marks. But I think that may just be me being incorrect on killer skill at that level. I do think blight has an extremely low skill floor when compared to freddy. Yet they are equal in kill rates. But nurse has the highest skill floor of them all and its not like we see her kill rate silly low, its actually only 2% lower at 67%.
Devs need to take note of freddy when comming out with killers that have all this traversal, or undetectable, or both. And model them around what freddy does. He has meaningful cooldown and counterplay. Instead of just "getting everything". And still strong in the end.
I think freddy might have a bit of "he was just reworked so people are figuring out how to play against" influencing that high kill rate.
Though nightlight today still has him at number 1.ahahahh this person got 7 vote ups saying nurse didn't really get nerfed going from basic attacks on blink to special and all her add-ons beside a few being worse. Blights add-ons as a blight main got gutted in terms of power and freddy is not strong. What am I witnessing. Alch ring, c33 or iri tag are all stronger on their own than any combination of current blight add-ons.
It's so hard to take this forum seriously when I see these replies being upvoted 7 times and downvoted 1 time. We really think blight is the same strength after the add-on changes? Did we think about it for 2 seconds? Did the people who upvoted this banned individual think for two seconds before upvoting or have they ever even learned blight? Probably not.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964807#Comment_3964807
So there's a lot to unpack here, but I'll try to speak to as much as I can.
Kill rate is genuinely irrelevant, couldn't be a more worthless stat in this game. The kill rate during prime DH, IW, UB and CoH meta was 48% in a swf
I feel like this is the core problem with why we disagree here, because this meta was before 6.1. your also cherry picking SWF, but actually that doesn't matter anymore.
These are the most recent escape rates, so overall that number has gone up a lot. SWF in particular is now at about a 60% kill rate overall. So yes, balance has changed, and absolutely in the killers favor.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IL6AEX1PSP22/1000009212.png
And I doubt you'd be saying "kill rates don't matter" if it was flipped and kill rates were around 40% instead of escape rates.
Killer peaked in 6.1.0 strength wise.
Saying killer get buffed every patch is hilarious, 0 of the best killer perks are at their peak strength right now. Clown just got gutted.
If you're only looking at perks, which you seem to be focused on, then yes... The gen kick and 3 gen metas were the strongest we've ever seen in the game. And it was so wildly overpowered that people could hold the game hostage for an hour and win by attrition that way. It was also one of the most completely broken things they've ever had in the game and is a travesty that it took a year for them to address.
I say killer has been buffed every patch, since it's basically true. In the 3 years since 6.1.0, there has been one, maybe 2 patches total that didn't include some form of buff for killers in general, or specific killers, or even just base kit mechanics.
There are people like you that hard focus on just the meta perks, and basically unless they're hard buffing regression then it doesn't matter to you.
But the buffs they've been handing out are specifically and intentionally to increase the kill rates over the years, and it's demonstrably worked. (This is also, I suspect, related to why you don't think kill rates should count, since it hard counters this idea that killer role generally is eating just fine right now). Changes to maps, tiles, weakening pallets, increasing dead zones, and map RNG happen relatively often even though it doesn't reach the patch notes usually unless there's a specific map rework. Base kit hooks respawn, instant regression on kick (twice), and nearly every major patch has had 2-4 killers specifically listed with buffs ranging from QOL improvements to entire IRI add-ons made base kit.
Nurse gets add-ons nerfed, skull merchant killed, blight add-ons are way worse and hug tech removed. Base kit BT is insane, Skull merchant deleted, ghoul is removed from high tier less than a month after release although he is terrible to play against.
Yes, there have been some balance changes, and personally I don't like how they handled SM either. But complaining about them nerfing nurse, who is still S tier, top 2 killers in the game is a weird focus. They announced like 4 years ago that hug tech was a bug, and it took them over two years to fix. That wasn't a surprise at all. Ghoul is still a high tier killer as well, so I'm not sure what you're upset about with this one.
Looking at the three of the top, I'm guessing 5, killers in the entire game and clutching pearls because they had minor changes or even bug fixes that still leave them in the top 5 isn't really making your case for you here.
It might seem like I am a killer main, survivor hater in the way I worded this but that's not the case. I despise how killers play like bots just like how I despised how survivors played like bots up until 6.1.0.
It does because you're so hard focused on regression for killers (and this weird "kill rates don't matter stance"… dying a lot more often certainly matters if you play survivor for any reasonable amount of time and you don't just dismiss that fact.) It's also because, despite you starting in 2021, you're complaining about base kit BT… and you should know exactly why that was a necessary and good change to the game. Especially since 6.1 also brought about the change to endurance where hitting BT off hook literally disables a host of anti-tunnel perks for the killer.
Because IMO, killers played more like bots right after 6.1. Specifically the gen kick and 3 gen metas were PvE gen kick simulator, where killers dropped chase, kicked a gen, hit me, ran away. There was a song about that exact phrase because killers would spend the entire match kicking gens instead of interacting with the survivors (you know, the PvP).
And that "strategy" won games. It won a lot of games, and had the added "bonus" to a lot of killers that it was so broken and non-interactive that it was exceedingly frustrating for survivors. I personally stopped playing survivor for at least a year and a half after a few months of that meta.
Killers have been getting stuff but not what they wanted
Killers have largely gotten what they asked for, but not what they wanted. Generally speaking, killers want to go back to the 6.1 days where they could play like a bot, and win a largely PvE game experience. But pretending like most survivor changes haven't been catered to exactly the killer's demands here is laughable.
prime DH, IW, UB and CoH meta
You pick it out yourself, and choose a meta where perks were largely nerfed by killer request (except UB). DH (twice), DS, IW, CoH, medkits, toolboxes, BNP, MfT, Haddonfield, basically every corn map (not just cowshed), Eyrie, GoJ, even hatch, and I'm certain I'm missing some because it's been 3 years now. Oh, and the recent "just push it live" punish them all "Go Next" system that was grossly overtuned. All by killer demand.
What killers apparently want, however, is gen kick meta back. That's all that matters is regression. Oh, absolutely keep all the buffs to everything else, including core game elements in the meantime, but give back infinite time to win the game by default after an hour. That's a must, apparently.
Blight isn't freddy
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. What exactly are you trying to say here? Freddy is the most deadly killer in the game currently after the most recent rework. And, I'm sorry, but the "it's a skill issue" argument doesn't hold water, since he's #1 across the board with overall and high MMR.
Pick trapper, pick clown. There are killers who could use some help.
And regarding clown, I'm sorry but this is part 2 of the MfT fallout. Killers complained for 6 months about 3% haste "lOsInG tHeM gAMeS" and the devs nerfed it for them. And now, because that group also convinced the devs that haste was a problem, they're addressing haste overall. Clown is collateral damage to that.
Strangely, now, things like haste stacking and clown bottles (more than 3%) are suddenly "necessary' and reasonable… now that MfT is dead. Which, I forgot to add, that while MfT was nerfed by demand, in the same breath the haste stacking changes were pulled back also by killer demand. Again, this is killers getting what they ask for but not what they wanted (which, in this case, is haste and haste stacking for the killer, but not for survivors).
All I'm going to say is that I didn't cherry pick swf, I was saying that even with god meta, god validation DH in a 4 man swf survivors were still sub 50%. That's why it doesn't matter, 4 survivors on the same teamare rarely try harding. The chance people are try harding goes down as you move from 4 man to full solo queue.
Blight was busted and is still really strong, but he has the highest pick rate he's had at the least strong he's ever been. nurse has always been busted but the play rate has never been high. The point is, even when survivors was hit the balance of extremely strong and having players who give a damn and who actually are trying to win to a high degree, they still still threw, played for giggles and gave up. I can read win rates in Lol so easily, but kill rates mean nothing in this game. No matter what people are trying in league or cs or siege but in dbd 1 person in a 4 man will be trolling or they all will be, double-so for solo queue. The kate hasn't touched a gen all game and is trailing the killer with a flash light, could be a 4 man, could be solo queue but it's all too common.In a game like dbd, the 1 in the "1v4" is most likely to actually play for themselves. They are playing to win, there is no altruism. Maybe 1/10th of games a killer will troll, maybe 1 out of two games A survivor will troll in someway.
I am largely focused on perks because the buffs are to killers that are bad to mid and even then they seem to be nerfing them half the time. There has been no base-kit buffs after 6.1.0 that why I am so obviously focused on perks. They only nerfed Blight, Nurse and Wesker. Until now with P-head none of the top tier killer have been buffed. Buffing demo doesn't make "KIller" stronger. That's like saying buffing red harring to c tier is a survivor buff.
Freddy being the most deadly killer in the game only backs up what I am saying about kill rates, EVERYONE knows he's not strong. Actually feeding into him being strong means you think a beyond whatever killer is worth anything strength wise. Do you really think freddy is stronger than nurse, blight, artist and P-head? You'd have to be essentially a silver player to actually agree with that statement.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964176#Comment_3964176
I'm not sure this is the "slam dunk" argument you think it is.
The devs have basically given killers everything they ask for for 3 years now. The only exception being gen kick meta levels of regression.
You can see that in the kill rates, the patch notes, the 60% target, and the devs literal words that they want the game to be unbalanced in the killers favor by design.
So what is there to wonder about when killers get buffed every patch for years to the point that their opponents literally didn't want to play unwinnable games anymore.
Survivors are complaining that the game isn't fun and being ignored, with some people burning out and giving up. Killers are getting buffed and instantly move the goal post to the next "big problem" because complaining has given them nearly everything they demand for years.
Survivors have been quitting for years. Killers have been getting stuff but not what they wanted, that's just troll. Kill rate is genuinely irrelevant, couldn't be a more worthless stat in this game. The kill rate during prime DH, IW, UB and CoH meta was 48% in a swf, survivors simply don't play to win. Killers have so many unfun way to destroy survivors but that doesn't mean as much as survivors running it down 3 gens down to save one dude, killing the entire team, at ANY mmr.
Killer peaked in 6.1.0 strength wise.
Saying killer get buffed every patch is hilarious, 0 of the best killer perks are at their peak strength right now. Clown just got gutted.
While killer is stronger than it was in 2021 objectively, it won't generally get stronger for the better part of a year and you'll still say this. Survivor will get the +10 on hook but who cares, PR, every gen kick perk and every gen kick killer getting nerfed doesn't change anything. Nurse gets add-ons nerfed, skull merchant killed, blight add-ons are way worse and hug tech removed. Base kit BT is insane, Skull merchant deleted, ghoul is removed from high tier less than a month after release although he is terrible to play against.
Survivors have been complaining in the exact same way you worded this comment since I started playing in summer 2021, Kill rates mean absolutely nothing, player hours mean nothing.
It might seem like I am a killer main, survivor hater in the way I worded this but that's not the case. I despise how killers play like bots just like how I despised how survivors played like bots up until 6.1.0.
Other than 6.1.0, it's been a HARD give and take on both sides other than a couple exceptions. Now survivors are finally getting a super favored patch so rejoice.
I genuinely don't think people understand how much lower kill rates would be if survivors played to win, but that's not what happens. 3 gens will be done and 3 people will start playing around the killer to save a person about to go on second hook, losing the entire game. That's 15% of all games right there. I don't think killer is weak whatsoever but people use false numbers to judge survivor when it means absolutely nothing.
People still lump "killers" into a group like they have been collectively buffed at all since 6.1.0 and the top end has only been nerfed even if still oppressive. Blight isn't freddy, blight isn't Phead.
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My kill rate definitely went down a lot after the first few months of playing blight as I started letting people go every time someone gave up or the game was whatever. I am however quite proud of not kicking a gen once, ever.
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@MaddieMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932583#Comment_3932583
I’m also not saying that the goal is to get rid of it 100 percent. What I am saying is that this is going to unfairly punish genuine players and as someone above said, it removes so many great 4 percent moments that happen in this game, many that have turned the tide of matches and made them more exciting. So we’re making the game less exciting now to punish a minority of the player base who again, are likely still not going to contribute to the match in any meaningful way by being kept in the match.
I really hope this doesn’t happen but right now it doesn’t look promising
The problem is it's not that small of a minority and people inherently don't like wasting their own time. People who would have previously gone next will play out a match for real more often now. I'm pretty certain the mechanic was used to leave more often than it was used with actually getting off the hook in mind.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897084#Comment_3897084
Wish I was playing your matches because the players in my matches DC, go next, avoid gens, deliberately float around waiting for a blind save and hide for as long as possible when there in 2 v 1 situations. Give me a bot any day over that.
I very rarely play killer and I've gone against a comp team in my last 5 matches. I hate playing matches where the survivors give up at the start as well, but when they are actually trying they are far superior to bots. I could play perkless trapper without using traps vs 4 bots 4k at 3 gens, it's just 0 fun.
Let me reiterate though, dbd players are not good. Bots are just beyond terrible and abusable.
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People tend to say the term killer far too much. What they really mean is A tier or higher killers when it comes to complaining about the general strength of killers.
When it comes to tunneling, slugging and camping it probably is genuinely applied to all killers and I think that's fair.
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The reason bots are so boring to play against compared to real players is because of bad they are. Dbd players aren't the best but they are a lot better than the bots.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
No because the number of players that can actually play these killers to a level where they're a problem balance wise is so small you'll barely even run into them!!! If that defense is good to keep 4 man SWF untouchable it works for Nurse and Blight too
You think nurse is really that hard? Unless a the killer play is a talentless she has a the skill floor of 4 hours max. Blights skill floor isn't that high and most players don't need his dumb skill ceiling.
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I love opening this forum for the first time in months and seeing people defending this behavior. I know for a fact that penalties reduce people from afking, trolling or giving up on a whim in a 10 second moment of weakness. It's not an opinion, I've seen it first hand in SEVERAL multiplayer games.
DBD is an inherently a toxic community and a baby one too. beyond any other I've seen, leagues not even 50% of this stuff.
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@mustdogen said:
i mean…. let's change the view.
If you are a survivor.
Would you feel mad if killer dc with hopelessness when you guys complete 4 gens with killer only got 1-2 hooks?
Would you feel mad if killer dc with hopelessness when you guys break the hex in first 10 secs of the match?
Ｗould you feel mad if killer dc with hopelessness when you guys do a flash save after a 2 minutes chasing?
If you would , then that's right, it is a nature feeling to feel unhappy when a winning game suddenly get shut down.
I'd be mad if they could do it for free every game without penalty at the slightest inconvenience.
People are mad that you can leave without penalty(actively ruining the game for every other person in the game) 30 seconds into the game and then do it again next game. A killer dcing isn't even close to the same thing.
Let me phrase it like this, imagine every other game you go against a killer who has a bad first chase or even a good chase and then farms until the game is over. All you can do is essentially the "work" that is doing 5 gens without chase. Is that fun? Do you endorse doing nothing half your games?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3763213#Comment_3763213
I think they've seen enough games play out that way to understand that their chances of having a decent game have plummeted.
Especially with stacked slowdown, that's crippling in the early-game. One person hooked, one on a gen, one chased and one for the save. Only have a single Survivor doing gens THAT early is a death sentence, and whether or not people are conscious of it is largely irrelevant.
Your giving the average player WAY too much credit here. They didn't reason that out in their head, they just give up at any negative scenario early on.
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😢
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In prime god validation dh, ub, ds, iw and CoH with alot of maps that were better and or more interactive for survivors, the kill rate was still 53%. Do you know why? Because there are so many incentives for survivors to not play the game. Rift, suicide, fun build, trying to interact with the killer more than not and challenges just to name some off the top of my head.
Do you know how many survivor games I have lost just because one person never intended to be even some-what efficient? At least 30-50% of my loses with a moderate guess. You can never have that 50% that should make sense because the player base and the game actively work against it.
Your just using data that doesn't work because people aren't really trying often enough for them to be accurate.
Let me be clear I haven't mained killer since 6.1.0 and I don't find a ton of killers fun or interactive to play against.
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@Xxjwaynexx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3744565#Comment_3744565
I think the issue with nurse is that yes she's super oppressive but the key thing here is 'in the right hands". Not everyone will have the skill expression required to make her as oppressive as she can be. Also most survivors in the low to mid range dc and give up on first hook which doesn't help at all.
Just because a killer is easy for you doesn't mean they're easy to learn for everyone. There's a reason there's not a nurse every single match and she isn't in the top 10 of picks.
Even though nurse is a S tier killer she isnt as easy to play consistently as other weaker killers at low to mid levels and some high levels to a degree (depending on if the survivors know how to counter her and waste time). No matter what map you go to when playing Oni, wesker, billy, at the end of the day they all move at 4.6 and can fall back on being an M1 killer when the time calls for it, meaning if your terrible with their power but still a good M1 killer with good game sense you can still compete. With nurse you only have her power there's no other play style aside from making her 4.6 after a blink attack but no longer able to blink.
Balancing changes should be around the bulk of players which fall into the mid to low range, tbh most players have an inflated perception of where they fall when it comes to their level of skill. And no I'm not saying nurse needs a buff or that's she not the strongest in the least. She's just not the strongest in everyones hands as most people would suggest. At the top level most players have enough skill and game sense that most killers will be equally viable across the board.
Just because dbd players are generally awful doesn't mean you don't change a character who has been the best for the entirety of the game. She's stronger with a far lower skill ceiling than the one's I mentioned. Even though I was able to gain enough proficiency to win every game in 2 games on her, most players should be able to start doing so by 20. She isn't played because her fatigue feels clunky and horror fans love their characters.
She's S tier after an hour for 80% of the player base which is wild considering the player base itself. I don't mean to discount you but dbd simply isn't a hard game and nurse isn't the hardest.
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why
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@Peanits said:
There's no short way to answer this, so apologies in advance for the long response. There's a couple reasons for this that I can shed some light on.
The biggest reason comes down to bandwidth and how some changes are more difficult to do than others. It's fairly easy for a designer to make number tweaks on their own, but bigger changes that affect how something works or looks requires support from other teams. To use Hillbilly as an example, replacing overheat with overdrive requires programming, audio, and VFX support to name a few. There's only so much time for these teams to work their magic in each update, and unfortunately bigger updates like Hillbilly's can sometimes be out of scope. That doesn't mean these sorts of updates can't happen, but it does mean that they may need to be pushed back until there's enough time for them. Number tweaks, meanwhile, are far easier to squeeze in and help fill the gap between larger changes.
That said, cranking up the numbers isn't always the right move: It's easy to change a number and make something stronger, but doing it in the wrong way can create unhealthy gameplay and/or remove counterplay. To take Pig as an example, increasing her ambush speed would undoubtedly make her stronger, but doing so would make it difficult if not impossible to avoid at certain loops. When a Survivor is zoned and stuck at a loop, Pig players will ambush one way to trick people into vaulting a pallet, then fake back the other way to hit them before they can vault back. This usually works in her favour on smaller loops as it leaves them with less time to react, though the Survivor still has an opportunity to predict whether or not she's going to mindgame and decide not to vault. Increasing her movement speed would not only make this more effective on larger loops, but also make it much easier to correct course if the Survivor did correctly call her bluff and get the hit anyway, as her increased speed would allow her to cover much more ground much quicker.
Increasing missed attack recovery speed is similarly risky on powers with high mobility. This is something we could see in action with the original PTB version of Chucky; even if the Killer missed their Slice & Dice attack, they'd find themselves close to the Survivor and ready to attack almost immediately after. This becomes problematic because even if the Survivor does dodge the hit, there's a good chance they'll get hit anyway, making it a lose-lose situation for them. It would be stronger, but not in a way that has a positive effect on gameplay.
To complicate things further, it's incredibly difficult to balance something equally across all skill levels by virtue of how their powers work. Some Killers thrive in the lower-mid range, others excel at the highest level. A Killer like Trapper will always be more effective in the lower to mid range where Survivors haven't quite clued in on where he's likely placed his traps, but may struggle against Survivors who know what to expect and can change their pathing on the fly. Likewise, a Killer like Nurse with a high skill ceiling may not do so well at the low end where Killers might have a harder time predicting Survivor movement (or simply struggle with aiming their blinks), but can dominate at the high end in the right hands.
This gets tricky because a Killer may already be balanced or even strong for some people, but lacking for others. To use Nurse as an example again, buffing her to be effective in the hands of new players would cause her to be way too strong in the hands of people who have mastered her. This same problem exists in reverse too, where buffing a Killer to the point that they're effective in the top end could make them much too strong for everyone else.
That doesn't make it impossible to change them, though! There are sometimes tweaks we can do to make a Killer stronger for some players, but not others. When Nemesis was introduced, we noticed that he typically performed well, but struggled a little in higher end matches. Interestingly, higher end Killers also used his Tentacle Strike more, causing them to reach higher mutation levels. This created an opportunity for us to buff his Mutation 3 Tentacle Strike, increasing his effectiveness in the higher end without having much of an effect on the lower end, reducing the gap. Similarly, changes that make a difficult Killer a little easier to play but not necessarily stronger (e.g. simplifying controls, improving visual feedback) - or lowering the skill floor - can help them perform better in the low end without impacting their performance in the higher end.
All this is to say that number tweaks can do a lot of good, but they can also do a lot of harm if done poorly. Pumping up some numbers can leave them in a better spot for some and worse for others. Ultimately this is a game for everyone, not just folks in a certain skill range, so we need to handle those changes with care.
But mr peanits, nurse is only hard for very new players and players who can't overcome a skill floor of 20 games(being extremely generous as it was one or two for me in prime god validation dh meta). Her reward is far too high for how easy she is, same with spirit. As I said in my comment Blight, Oni, Wesker and Billy are you pinnacle it's a shame to use nurse as an example just because players pick her up for two games, fail and then quit.
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Leave the game freely while only my side has access to said ability and then vehemently defend it even though I have 7000 hours in the game and should know far better than that, then go on to complain about that fact that I have to face a penalty if I can't wait all of 60 seconds to get the slap on the wrist free version of leaving the game.
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@Bafugaboo said:
just played killer and 4k with no skill and gained tons of bp. Yup take sides.
bro said bp.
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Permanent mini-game area denial vs a spread of power's that on their own aren't strong whatsoever? Don't see the comparison.
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It's so tough for dbd players to hear this. Most killer designs do not warrant a high level of power(not saying all high tier killer deserve their power such as nurse and spirit who are pretty easy compared to oni, billy, wesker and blight). Making half of the roster a current B+ tier killer wouldn't work. You can ever so slightly buff some killers but not many. Choosing billy of all killers as your example is how do I say this… not it. The killer is the highest mechanically demanding killer in the entire game and is still fair outside of obvious general killer bs, the only one who tops him on a overall skill level is blight but that's due to an unreasonably high amount of knowledge required compared to most things in this game we call dbd.
Anyway back on topic. Try to make clown or legion oni tier without making them more insufferable to play against and keeping their kit the same. You can't, it's not possible.
Not all low tier killers deserve to be low tier and not all high tiers deserve to be high tier, generally they do though. Pigs power for instance could be made a bit better base kit even because it's interactive, I MEAN THE DASH NOT THE TRAPS OBV.
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I actually do think about those duos you speak of. 2 mans are the most common and 3/4 mans are rare. The rarest would be a full solo queue game based on stats from a couple years ago and based on that we can infer based on the community that swfs are at least slightly more common now.
Just like how I dislike people referring to killers as a whole when freddy/wesker are dimensions apart, I think about the differences in swfs. 2s are the most common and it allows me to discount people claiming 4 man solo games majority of the time as gas lighters. 3 and 4mans who actively coordinate to the extreme are beyond rare. -
- I think most reasonable people agree with you
- Nah lets come back for a fourth pass and turn slam speed add-ons into 8/5% turn rate and speed. Maybe nerf placebo? IDK they took the few failures of the first add-on pass to heart and are now set on changing all of them out of spite.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3739290#Comment_3739290
Could you rephrase that? I struggle to understand what you mean?
Reaching the skill ceiling of a killer just means you have mastered that killer, which is bound to the killers max potential. Depending on which killer the skill ceiling might be higher or lower. And it is not relative to the potential strenght of a killer, Billy before his buffs was the hardest killer in the game, highest skill ceiling, but he was super weak. About Nurse's skill ceiling, while it might not be considered as high as others in pub games, but when asked KNightlight said in comp Nurse is the hardest killer. So I would say she is hard, when people know what they are doing which they more often than not don't in pub matches.
If nurse safe blinks on MAJORITY of tiles there is no counter play. Double back, stand still, wait and hold W. That second blink will just hit you if the nurse has 20 games and the ability to learn semi-efficiently. Billy is the hardest mechanically but blight is the close second and instant read collision along with creating a geometric path in your head in miliseconds based on that knowledge is FAR HARDER. Like wow, billy holds the tittle of the most mechanical killer, that's nothing in dbd terms. Blight has second to none mechanics and knowledge base above all others. Nurse is nothing mechanically, if you can't learn her timing in 5 games idk. Safe blinking even in comp will result in a hit 90% of the time at least. It literally comes down to LoS rng(GREAT COUNTERPLAY).
With all that side no blight player has touched something akin to a perfect bot, unlike any other killer main in the game.
Skill ceiling on the killer side isn't high and nurse is definitly not up there. Wesker, Billy, Blight and Oni are way above that killer with an extremely overated skill ceiling.
I remember a couple months into dbd my friend who had quit dbd asked me to play nurse. I lossed my first game, and then won my next 20+. You can try and force the knightlight "comp" thing but the safe blink playstyle doesn't care about that whatsoever.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3739262#Comment_3739262
OK? You need to elaborate on that... What I meant is the strenght we take into account is the maximum potential on each killer. So the player who plays that killer has reached the skill ceiling of that killer and can draw out its full potential... So it is somewhat synonym... What do you mean?
What I a mean is that nurse doesn't really have a high skilling. Blight for instance hasn't really had an individual reach his skill ceiling but is nearly comparable to nurse. If we disregard skill ceiling than I agree with you.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737718#Comment_3737718
Not really, such lists usually just assume max potential on the killer. So maximum skill ceiling reached.
Max potential? Sure. Max skill ceiling? No. Nurse and spirit are nothing compared to the killers that surround them on either end in terms of skill ceiling.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
Tier lists are pointless. It all depends on who is playing the Killer.
I mean, no? Freddy has 0 skill expression compared to blight. The potential of each killer is definitely severally different. A game where a good blight barely 2k's a freddy has 0 chance. The potential at the very least is severely different.
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I mean it'd just be super generic or completely irrelevant from the movie but it'll have that well. Sooooo cool.
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You either main freddy, are a classic horror stan or don't care.
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Yeah blights a few of blights add-ons were far too strong but in terms of unique design blights add-ons were in a class far above any other. They even came in and changed soul chemical and summoning stone for reasons far beyond my comprehension just to make them not unique.
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If a "small break" Isn't 2 years I have 0 idea what you are expecting.
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@Star99er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733678#Comment_3733678
can you honestly say it would be a problem though if they reverted one of the two nerfs? Killer tracking has gotten better over the years with the introduction of a lot of powerful aura reading perks. Buffing iron will alongside some other survivor stealth perks doesn’t sound like a bad idea, the survivor perk meta has been really stale for a while now.
100% was extremely broken and caused the killer to be forced to 50/50 whether to attempt mind game or predict a silent pre run upon LoS breakage. If they remove exhaustion I would even say nerf the sound by another 15-25%. Other than turning your headset up by 300% and trying to listen for the grunts through the audio carnage that is chasing as killer, 75% is essentially silent for majority of the survivor cast.
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@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728990#Comment_3728990
Punishing people who want out isn't the answer. Not being able to self unhook just means people afking on hook or running towards killers or worse sandbagging. Taking people's agency away doesn't force them to comply and be a good team mate. It will only exasperate the situation. No matter what your feelings are you can't and behavior can't force people to play with they have preceived a situation they don't like.
Banning isn't going to work as the game honestly can't afford to lose that many players lol. And other then vote kick system that replaces people with bots that will never be implemented or removal of the DC penalty the path of least resistance is and always will be dying on hook
Edit: a removal of the struggle and bleed out also making unhooking people less urgent which may result in people being stuck waiting not playing for extended periods of time for better or worse people rush for unhooks because no one likes hanging there and every additional second is more motivation to not play or struggle off
Tell me you've never played another online pvp game without telling me.
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I think a thing I noticed when I started learning survivors(first year was only killer pretty much) was how uninformative survivor content creators are. A ton of killer players will describe every thing they do and why, a ton of content creators for killer main one killer and that's their shtick which they can be very informative about. On the flip side none of the bigger survivor content creators are consistently informative and even if they are calling out what they are doing they don't say their reasoning much.
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@radiantHero23 said:
I play mostly soloq.
Its sometimes fine, soometimes miserable. However, I have to say, that most of the misery comes from the survivors. Not the killer.
No, no and no. It's not the many things in the game the encourage survivors to throw the game, it's not the things in the game endorse throwing from survivors and it's most definitely not games where one survivor is just messing around for fun. Killers just broken.
Imagine if everyone played mostly to win? Surely that wouldn't severely raise the win rate?
Anyway, yeah it's first of all survivors not playing to win and then killers having access to very obnoxious things. Point one means way more.
@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726731#Comment_3726731
I do see that argument brought up, but survivors do generally leave when the match is a certain defeat. For example, Blight has slugged everyone at 5 gens and they start DCing. It was a blowout win for the killer but the match gets thrown out because someone threw in the towel. It really happens a lot. I wish they were counted but I really doubt BHVR wants anyone to know how bad survivors have it.
You act like suicide games are negated which they are not. You are just sluzzy level of biased.
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"No guys, survivor's miserable if I can't leave whenever I want, typically one min in. Game wouldn't be fun without it(the game isn't fun for me unless I am hard stomping and messing around).
Boo hoo guys, you gotta suffer for an average of 7 min.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726353#Comment_3726353
Did they "add"counterplay or is this just a natural consequence of the games movement system plus Hag having a camera swing?
They didn't add this tech + the normal max range bait, they have always been there. The added counter play is the wipe away that has pushed down several tiers.
Hag was always a pub stomper, now she's not even good at that.
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@MaddieMage said:
So you’re mad that higher skilled survivors have a faster way to counter her traps instead of the time consuming crouch and wipe one?
More likely that they are mad they added very easy counter play anyone can pull off while also leaving in the ever effective trap bait which has always been there. The hag can do nothing at that point and killer is worthless.
Saying "higher skill" like dbd is hard also makes it seem like you have a high ego. Games not hard, knowing the outer radius of a hag trap takes 3 games, don't make it seem like it's worth anything.