NeverSolus
NeverSolus
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@RDyer05 said:
Killer Avoidance Slot
I had an idea that I genuinely think could help keep people playing DBD.
What if every survivor could choose one killer they simply do not want to play against?
There are so many killers in the game now and everyone enjoys different things. A killer doesn't necessarily have to be overpowered for someone to absolutely hate playing against them.
I regularly play survivor with the same group of four. We haven't gone online moaning about killers or demanding nerfs, but Jason really started to make the game less enjoyable for us and now The Judgement has pretty much finished it off.
At the moment all four of us have basically stopped playing DBD.
That got me thinking. Surely Behaviour would rather we kept playing the game and avoided one killer than just stopped playing altogether?
My idea would be that every survivor gets one Killer Avoidance Slot.
You pick one killer and matchmaking simply doesn't put you against them.
There would obviously have to be some rules around SWF groups. For example, maybe a four person group could only have a maximum of two different killers blocked between them so you couldn't have a group excluding four different killers.
You could even have one full avoidance slot and maybe a second preference where matchmaking tries to avoid that killer but can still match you against them if queue times get too long.
I also think this would give Behaviour some really useful information.
At the moment if people hate playing against a particular killer, Behaviour might never know. Players don't always go on Reddit or the forums and complain. Sometimes they just stop playing.
That's exactly what our group has done.
If Behaviour could see that hardly anybody avoids one killer but a huge percentage of survivors are avoiding another, that would tell them there is something about that killer people are really not enjoying.
That doesn't automatically mean the killer is too strong either. They could be perfectly balanced and still be miserable to play against.
Behaviour could then look into why people are avoiding them and whether something needs changing.
I don't want easy games and I don't want survivors being able to choose exactly who they play against. Some of my favourite matches are ones where the killer absolutely destroys us.
I just think with such a massive killer roster now, allowing someone to say "please don't give me this one killer" isn't unreasonable.
People who enjoy playing against that killer can carry on as normal.
Killer players can still play whoever they want.
And people like my group who are currently not playing DBD at all might actually come back and play again.
I'd be interested to know what killer everyone else would put in their one avoidance slot and whether having something like this would make anyone currently taking a break start playing again.
I like the spirit if this idea, but I can't agree. Not because of the effect on the queue times or the like, though I agree those would be terrible. But instead because of application. This would effectively be an accessibility option that everyone could use, which means all people would have access to them.
That also means this could be used by SWF's to simply avoid potent killers. A SWF could queue up and block out Ghoul, Blight, Dracula, Nurse for instance, and the game's balance would skew violently. Alternatively, imagine the week Jason came out. No one wanted to learn counter play they just got sick of seeing him, and rightfully so, he was in every #)*%#% match. So if you could just block Jason, your group could effectively stall out the new killer queue.
I love the spirit of the idea, but I just don't see the effects working out. Handing out what are effectively 4 killer 'ban' slots to a each group of survivors would be wonderful in a world where I could trust it would only be used for accessibility features. Outside of that though, it's nothing but dangerous. -
@esoteric0108 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114060#Comment_4114060
Yes, Guess slop. you guess blindly through walls and hope it hits. DEFINITION of guessslop
Also, it's kind of hard for anything to take this seriously when you say things like 'DEFINITION OF [term-i-just-made-up]'
There is no definition of Guess-slop. It's a made up term. I googled it to be sure, and sure enough, no such term. But on that note: welcome to PVP games. -
Is…
Is anyone gonna tell him about 50/50's and mind-games? -
@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113911#Comment_4113911
Umm okay so if a killer is OP you just need to stay calm and get better, but if survivors have anything OP it must be instantly nerfed and deleted and also we must nerf survivors even more whilst we are at it because they are all toxic and suck.
Perfect logic
Did Piccolo tell you I believed all that? That's impressive. I must seek out the tutelage of the Namekian.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113955#Comment_4113955
I feel like this is where the add ons come in like we have "kind of pain res" with detonators and "kind of BBQ" with blindfold and then we get to run 4 perks on top of it so I don't think it's a bad deal even with the restrictions on those add ons.
I agree. I personally don't much care for those add-ons, but you're right in that the option is present. I think Mech has hit the nail on the head in that it seems best both sides just miss out on perks. Ultimately the exile mechanic is more detrimental to overall play then it is beneficial to the killer, as multiple can be 'unhooked' at once which is a dramatic shift in pressure creation.
I'd leave it as it is if I had the option myself. But if it becomes so much of an issue, that 'multi unhook' thing is going to be a thorn in the side of balancing making exiles count as hooking and unhooking actions.
I can't even imagine how you'd operate STB against unhooking three people at once. -
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113925#Comment_4113925
Oh I mean yeah me too. 100%
If we did that though we would have to let survivors use their perks to be fair. That's why I would like to keep it as is.
I'd be down for that in full. If it counted as hooking and unhooking all around it would be sensibly balanced and fair. My only objection is from the one side or the other argument.
Would be nice to get something like pop/BBQ/etc on exile. Though I wonder how 'scourge' hooks would work with exile, as it would need to be addressed. Given you can exile three survs and it only takes one action to free them, would be senseless to not count exiles as scourges to even it out. -
Just put a perk into it if it's that big of an issue. If it's not, then just dodge. You have a sound queue and a giant beam of light from the sky. Dodge. If you can dodge the light you can dodge a dodge ball.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113878#Comment_4113878
Okay if you take everything I said there literally sure but my point still stands.
This killer is the definition of mega power creep and creating more and more blatantly OP killers to satisfy a particular audience in the community. Why would you ever play artist when this killer exists, its blatantly a 1000 times better version of her, and artist ISN’T EVEN A BAD KILLER. People complained about nurse for years because she ignores fundamental game mechanics, but then when this killer and Vecna2 do just that suddenly its not a problem and I don't get it. These killers are even easier than nurse and way more frustrating to play against.
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Sorry I disagree on this one. The Judgment doesn't need reworking to make them more homogenized. Their kit is flawed, but I don't think this is the direction to go.
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@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/471880/vigil-was-massacred-in-the-10-1-1-update
i agree, the other status effects were why i used vigil. Boo hoo 2 killers got hurt by it but now there isn’t anything that reduces exposed so nurse/blight/ghoul etc with friends is still super oppressive.
The perk should be restored to its former 66% with the outright removal of exhausted and hindered portions.
I mean, to the effect and empathy of your own argument… "boo hoo 1 perk got hurt by balancing two killers"?
I'd be all for seeing it not effect exhausted and hindered, but be returned to 66% though. I think they changed it to exhaustion only because that's what they thought the player base would prefer. -
Not gonna lie, BHVR could straight up stick me for my wallet if Velma became a survivor.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113619#Comment_4113619
If I have 2 survivors down that are heretics. I hook one and exile the other for more pressure.
Same.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113646#Comment_4113646
At no point did I come even remotely close to '
If they don't get up I will tunnel.'You are arguing that them using a tool that makes them harder to beat in chase will make you tunnel someone else. Given that you are running this line in defense of a nerf to said tool, I think it's a pretty fair assumption that you are arguing from an expectation that this survivor should drop said tool.
While it's not directly telling them to give up, it IS telling them that they can't use those tools that give them an advantage in this field, or else you'll tunnel.
Yes, the argument could be used on Lithe as well - that doesn't make the argument less valid.
But it makes it a colossal problem. Because it's not -just- Lithe. It's also Overcome, and Dead Hard, and Dramaturgy, and whatever other tool they might deploy in chase that you don't like. So Sprint Burst is on the chopping block today, what about tomorrow? And the day after?
Are we going down the list until every single chase-perk is banned?
the problem is that Sable has a tool the others don't that make her disproportionately resource intensive to deal with.
Yes, and this is fundamentally the purpose of survivor perks that are oriented on chases. This is a very wide swath of survivor perks that are all susceptible to the exact same argument. And you don't even need to stop there, because while one person brings a chase perk, another brings a healing perk and then you can drop the argument that 'healing can make future chases cost resources, so it makes me tunnel the healers!' and then that entire line-up of perks is on the chopping block.
This isn't a 'one and done' complaint.
That is the exact problem.
Both sides want things that encourage tunneling to be addressed.
And that is definitely not true. Because the game's baseline design encourages tunnelling, and we see how 'sides' reacted when BHVR attempted to tackle that one.
The only way that people seem to be willing to 'fix tunnelling' is via one singular solution: Nerf survivors.
And since doing so will not address the root problems with the game's design, IE:
If I kill everyone else first then I'll only need to hunt the Sable once.
No amount of survivor nerfs will EVER end the use of this argument.
Ultimately, this means that the line '[Perk] encourages tunnelling and thus should be nerfed' is an eternal complaint that leverages an advantage killers already have in order to create an even bigger advantage.
And to illustrate, let me pitch something to you that would 'fix' your complaint, that you would probably recognise as something that will -never- be approved for launch:
If one person having SB encourages tunnelling, then from now on, when one person equips SB, all survivors automatically get its benefits.
Problem solved, right?
Forgive formatting: I'm unsure how you did that, but I do like the organization of it. I'm going to shorten your quotes not to misquote you, but for brevity and avoiding a wall of text. Or, I guess, more of a wall of text. (Edit: Found how ya did it. Yipee.)
I think it's a pretty fair assumption that you are arguing from an expectation that this survivor should drop said tool.While it's not directly telling them to give up, it IS telling them that they can't use those tools that give them an advantage in this field, or else you'll tunnel.
No. No, it's not a fair assumption that I am arguing with an expectation they should drop the tool. My problem is not with survivor agency. I don't mind ignoring someone running SB - it's just part of the game to me. I'm happy to ignore them and kill the weaker links in the team structure. That's how this game works. My problem isn't that SB exists nor is my problem that they should drop it. My problem is that as long as one person has it and another does not, this creates a more obvious disparity that can, will, and should be taken advantage of by a killer, leading to a phenomenon most people find distasteful: Tunneling.But it makes it a colossal problem. Because it's not -just- Lithe. It's also Overcome, and Dead Hard, and Dramaturgy, and whatever other tool they might deploy in chase that you don't like. So Sprint Burst is on the chopping block today, what about tomorrow? And the day after?Are we going down the list until every single chase-perk is banned?
No. Chase perks are not the problem. The disparity of one person having them and the other person not on a given survivor team is the problem. I would have no problem with a team of four survs all running lithe, or SB : In such events my argumentation that they cause tunneling would not hold up to scrutiny. My problem is that insofar as they perks exist, a state in created in which either all survivors are bottlenecked into running one, or they accept not running them leads to being the easier target and thus being tunneled.Yes, and this is fundamentally the purpose of survivor perks that are oriented on chases. This is a very wide swath of survivor perks that are all susceptible to the exact same argument.
Yes. That is touching on my precise issue. I celebrate perk variety on both sides, but the survivors have a unique issue: What do you do if someone runs four boon perks, while everyone else has a distribution of chase, information, and gen perks? Nothing. The boon player dies first, more than likely, and the scenario all but assured the killers most valid option is to tunnel them whether they like it or not.
If there was an allotment that made Survivors pick a chase perk this would not be an issue, but as a result of them existing, it further galvanizes killers to tunnel. Note I said further galvanizes them, as I'm under no illusion that either side is going to stop moving goal-posts on this. Some killers will always tunnel, some survs will always call things tunneling when they are not. I'm under no illusion otherwise.The only way that people seem to be willing to 'fix tunneling' is via one singular solution: Nerf survivors.
+No amount of survivor nerfs will EVER end the use of this argument.Ultimately, this means that the line '[Perk] encourages tunneling and thus should be nerfed' is an eternal complaint that leverages an advantage killers already have in order to create an even bigger advantage.This is just an us vs. them argument wrapped in a bow, but I don't think you're doing it disingenuously or maliciously. I do not care if Killers will eternally cry about something, just as I do not care if Survivors will eternally cry about something. The frequency and constancy of moving goal posts on both sides is not productive and I am not bothered by it.
However saying 'nerf survivors' is the only fix is a cop-out for both of us. We can do better than that. There are options. Specifying chase as a required perk slot isn't something I like the idea of, but it would be a solution and most survivors already do this and thus would not consider it a nerf. Alternatively we could institute hard punishments on Killers for tunneling.
Simply throwing our hands up and bemoaning the past dictating the future is the exact sort of self-fulfilling prophecy I'd like to avoid.
As I said before, to regard theNo amount of survivor nerfs will EVER end the use of this argument.I do not care. It's a gradient. Some survivors will always want more. Some killers will always want more. That doesn't make an argument invalid, and it doesn't make the problem not a problem. This fatalism isn't going to lead to anything productive by just dismissing arguments out of hand.
By means of beating the dead horse:
"Burning fossil fuels creates pollution!"Well we'll stop that.
"Burning forests creates pollution."Nope, we already stopped fossil fuels 'cause you said that was doing it.
"Spraying aerosol's creates pollution."Well you're never going to be happy so I'm tired of hearing this 'causes pollution' argument.
The argument being tiresome doesn't mean the argument does not contain validity.
(And for anyone reading, that example was a hyperbolic example that is a strawman. Not meant to replace or invalidate Firellius' argument in any way. Please do not treat it as such.) -
The point of the killer is long range sniping, and their cooldowns have been adjusted to further limit their M1 potentiality. Their long-range potential is what they excel at. Of course they only engage in long range attacks and avoid chase - Chase is their weakness. Nerfing them further would just see their selection rate dip even further.
Also 'short range' blasts typically do not work due to how the power operates. That's another facet of why the killer engages at long-range. But if you gave Judgment the same cooldowns, stacks, and speed of operation as Artist these changes would be viable. But then you'd just end up with crab-rangoon Artist, not the Judgment. -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113584#Comment_4113584
Is it wrong though? Anytime you ditch a chase because it's too hard, you can make the same argument. It's not like this is the first time this excuse has been used, either. And nothing's stopping people from dropping it on Lithe next.
It is wrong, and I'll thank you to not make assumptions about my opinions before you even inquire to the nature of them. At no point did I come even remotely close to 'If they don't get up I will tunnel.' That's an insultingly low bar strawman to set up for your argumentation with someone whose opinion you don't even understand.
Killers ditching chases that will take too much time is considered broadly a critical skill for killers. Even other survivors on this forum have agreed that SB can cause tunneling. If every time I approach Sable she disappears like a bottle rocket, it's obvious I'm not going to chase Sable. I'm going to start ignoring her outright whenever I have another option. It's not illogical by any measure, and I'm not obligate in any way to chase the Sable in that scenario. So I don't. It's just not efficient.
Yes, the argument could be used on Lithe as well - that doesn't make the argument less valid. Things that create tunneling incentives are things many of us just do not care for. If someone sabo's often, I'm more likely to tunnel them. Same for if one person has SB, I am more likely to ignore them and hit their slower teammates.
The problem isn't that the Sable didn't give up - the problem is that Sable has a tool the others don't that make her disproportionately resource intensive to deal with. So I'll first target people who did not bring that resource. If I kill everyone else first then I'll only need to hunt the Sable once.
This isn't a 'one and done' complaint. Both sides want things that encourage tunneling to be addressed. It's a gradient. It's not as though 'Well now that SB has been nerfed tunneling will not be a thing, right?' That was not, is not, and will never be the point. Equally, we don't want people to just give up or be tunneled. That's a gross mischaracterization. -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113485#Comment_4113485
And, frankly speaking, SB just led to people getting tunneled.
I'm really tired of this argument, because it ultimately boils down to 'If you don't willingly give up, I'll switch targets and tunnel'.
That's just about as uncharitable and disingenuous of an argument as you could make, but sure. Do as you will I guess.
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Lockers aren't a hard-counter for every killer. Nor are they meant to be.
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There are better perks, there are more effective perks. SB went a long, long time without adjustment and it was a non-trigger speed boost that didn't require positioning or interaction with anything but the shift key to trigger. It should be a weaker haste than lithe, for instance, which requires a vault. It should be meaningfully weaker, and now it is, as it can be done anywhere.
And, frankly speaking, SB just led to people getting tunneled. It's a good thing that it took a back seat. There are other valid options to replace it, so I don't particularly understand people being as heated about the nerf to SB specifically.@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113444#Comment_4113444
Being so aggressive, ah.
Okay, then do what you wanna do - I'll do what I wanna do, Platinum still died and was struggling due to OOO and frantically panicking over having an S tier snipe at her Eleven model.
I'm not going to go back and forth with you over tone-policing, think whatever you want about "aggression".
Apparently being analytical on the DBD forums is aggression.
Your tone was fine. Some people here take things to personal places rather quickly in an emotional plea they employed to garner them some false authority or clout. It's becoming more and more common lately in the forums. Don't let it bother you. Not that you need to be told.
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I'd say this is reasonable and legitimate. I see this a lot on killer, where I can clearly tell one survivor is effectively carrying the entire team whilst the other three go toteming, chesting, or otherwise just not actually contributing.
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Alex Mercer would be very cool, but prototype is effectively a dead IP last I checked. Not a lot of recognition on it these days. Don't know that they could score much profit on the title.
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@Wraff said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113440#Comment_4113440
The match making is worthless. Especially right now since they reset it. This is a well known fact
We don't know that yet, as it's going to take a few weeks to calibrate to the new system. Dooming it before it gets anywhere isn't productive.
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I don't use it. Waste of an addon to me. Maybe a much more talented player could get solid use out of it but it's just a meme add-on to me.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113471#Comment_4113471
if its a 4k in a minute im going to go ahead and say thats a survivor problem
Entirely.
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My brother in the mist you are thinking too hard about this.
When survivors say they have a problem with tunneling, slugging, and camping, the bulk of them are reasonable people referring to the unreasonable playstyle of slugging and tunneling from match start right out the gate.
If you slug because of a sabo, most survivors don't mind. The only ones who do mind are bully squads, and their opinions are not valid as they are entering the game with the intent of being cruel to begin with.
If you tunnel because someone rushes you off hook to body block, most survivors don't mind you bodying them for it as they are abusing their protections for toxic or contrary purposes to the protection.
I'm not trying to flame you or anything so much as highlight that you are saying what most people already know. I'm a killer main, and I know it. Most survivors who are worth talking to know it, and much of the forums know it. There are the 'rulebook' survivors, sure, but most people treat those rules contextually. And most people do recognize bully squads will drive killers to do some cruel things in acts of frustration. Most survivors won't blame you for responding to poor sportsmanship with poor sportsmanship. -
Just run shattered hope, Like Pidgeon said. Granted everytime I do it and break a boon the survivors just bot out, it's still an answer. I hate the disparity in how totems/boons work as well, but you can always punish them for running them.
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113382#Comment_4113382
For sure, I think for Deathslinger - a lot of people love to clip farm with ranged killers, lol. I still to this day get surprised when someone who is ranged wants to go for a clippy moment like Huntress with a hatchet when I'm literally in their face or Deathslinger when shooting point blank when they can hit the M1.
But yes, I would argue for the average killer community that Deathslinger is stronger than Judgment in a 1v1, but that's because Deathslinger is more simplistic. If you miss your beam, you will be penalized a little by the fact that you move slowly and will have to now track the survivor and try again with your beam.
Deathslinger on the other hand can immediately zone the survivor and shoot through obstacles, while triggering the mending bar, which acts as a pressure point for the survivor in question regarding the chase.
I will agree that not dealing with someone in your face, sure - but at some point, you have to do what Negoose does and close down the loop by either zoning the survivor completely, pelting them through the object, or curving around it.
Otherwise, you will be at a massive disadvantage if the survivor knows how to loop and you're in a close range 1v1 area.
I am happy to concur with you on the largest spectrum here. We don't often agree so I'm going to take this one with a shot of whiskey and celebrate! 😂
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113312#Comment_4113312
If you're ignoring a survivor close range, you cannot argue that she isn't weak in a 1v1 close range encounter.
She inevitably is a long range sniper, it is why I say that survivors should fundamentally break the habit of healing at hook or doubling on gens when versing her.
She in my eyes is just a more lethal Artist with the cooldown speed of Henry (I don't know the exact numbers because I am not sitting here doing DBD math when I load into a trial and go based on visual cues for the most part).
She is good if being piloted by someone who knows how to predict and curve their beam (Negoose) but in the average killer hands? They will struggle, just like average survivor mains will struggle against certain killers. It's why I don't really engage with nerf said killer or whatever because the person writing whatever it is is just upset that due to whatever happened in the trial occurred, scapegoat it elsewhere, and just demand nerfs.
In my eyes, I don't really see any issue with any killer as long as you know their limitations. I do strongly believe that it truly depends on the skill and hours played, I mean I didn't play the PTB at all. I never watch PTBs, I just go based off hands-on experience as I am a hands-on learner and would prefer to make my own opinions instead of parroting what a YouTuber says about something.
So, ultimately speaking she struggles in 1v1s unless you take the time to fundamentally master her along with similar people that phase through objects. - a lot of the killers in this game believe it or not are sorta similar to one another in some capacity, it's why I compare her to Artist and Henry.
I could honestly if I wanted to draw parallels with every single killer if I wanted to, but that'd be boring so yes.
I guess my point hinges on the fact that I just treat close range as not existing, much the way that say, Slinger doesn't engage at 40m. No one says slinger is 'weak' at that range, he just doesn't engage there at all. Not to argue the point mind you, as I think you're still correct. She's just a better artist. I also agree most killers are more similar than not.
I just struggle to say she's weak at something that, in my opinion and playstyle, she just shouldn't be doing at all. -
Been playing judgment mostly, so I don't care about it as much. But I have still been seeing it. Just not as common as lithe now, which… I mean, I'm playing Judgment so I just couldn't be bothered to care about any of the exhaustion perks. It's a nice vacation.
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I honestly don't think you can do much about this. It's not engaging, no, but then again there are a lot of things in the game that aren't all that engaging. I don't particularly find sabo squads engaging, by example, as they force me to slug and camp the slug.
Stable winning strategies are seldom fun or engaging when played at high efficiency. I know that's an awful thing to say, but it's true. Gen rushing, tunneling, slugging, three-genning, sabo swapping, ratting, all of these are strategies to win or survive a match that are just… frankly speaking, not fun or engaging. But they are common for a reason, they tend to award a result.
I do have empathy for your point, interaction and fun in the game should be driven, but I can't see current DBD taking an angle that blends objective oriented goals with fun or engaging gameplay. -
I don't find her weak in close range. Just ignore close range survs, and you're fine. If someone comes within five to ten meters of you, ignore their existence and go back to sniping. Easy as. Eventually the 5m surv will slip up and put themselves in a position to feed you an M1, or they'll go away. If they just stand there, well, then they aren't doing gens now are they? Easy enough. Ignore anyone close and keep hitting the distance shots. Rinse, lather, repeat.
Slingshot if you think you're good, but frankly speaking the survs that come within 5m are normally there because they feel confident they can dodge your slings, so in my experience you're better off ignoring them entirely. -
@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112958#Comment_4112958
Um. Nah. Getting easy snipes across the map is not a high skill ceiling. What it is, is picking low hanging fruit and copying a build a content creator made.
What is my suggestion?
Well, I think it's time that the dbd devs rework the entire perk system and make all perks (both survivor or killer) behave slightly differently depending on what killer is in play.
Imagine, for instance, if Thrill of the Hunt is far less effective on high-mobility killers, but more effective of low mobility killers. Or since we were talking about aura reading specifically, if max aura reading ranges on the Judgement were reduced, or there were cooldowns, or longer times before automatically activating (deer stalker and celestial witness), or just shorter windows to read auras.
Imagine if stealth perks were actually much stronger on killers that already had innate stealth in their basekit. Or if maps had more/less pallets and windows depending on the killer.
Eventually, they are going to HAVE to do this, or we will continually be in the situation where X perk was nerfed to help reign in Y unbalanced killer, and all the other M1 / C tier killers suffer as a result.
I disagree with your first point, but not the second. I won't bother arguing with you on the skill ceiling of Judgment, as you've made your mind up and I feel no masochistic urge to indulge your certainty with good faith argumentation.
Instead I'll focus on what we agree on. The idea of perks having variable values is interesting to me on both sides. I do like the idea. Thrill having higher value on slower or melee killers for instance. Equally we could see the same from survivors - that is to say a perk like lithe having less effect against a killer like Huntress than it would against a killer like legion, by example.
Perks showing higher value thresholds where they are more necessary is a terrific idea. -
This is just going to be a tunneling issue, as it was before, and I mean this in more of a mathematical sense. What we're discussing here isn't a distortion nerf, it's a meta shift. That is to say if a great deal of killers run aura read, the meta shift would be survs running distortion or other aura blocking perks, right?
Well this creates a scenario in which the killers stop playing aura necessary killers and run different builds to butcher anyone using perk slots on aura blocking. This creates a new stable meme in the pool, which is answered by the same meta as before, exhaustion perks and anti-tunnel perks. Which goes right back to aura perks.
This is just an argument of counters and adaptions, no?
The problem as I see if, if I were to take the survivor side on the matter, isn't that distortion isn't good enough. The problem is that there are a variety of killer perk and power load outs and as more killers are released it's becoming increasingly more difficult to run a build that comfortably denies or counters the bulk. If you run anti regression perks (Gen rush), you end up gutted if you face an aura build. If you run anti Aura, then the regression build guts you. And so on.
I think this is more of a problem of at match lock-in, feeling comfortable that the build you enter with is going to see value. This scenario is becoming increasingly more difficult as more killers are introduced that run different power perk combinations popularly.
If this is the case, the problem is more the lack of expected outcome from what the killers are bringing to a match than it is a problem of perks being undervaluable. Though certainly a buff to something like distortion would help for the anti-aura builds. -
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112913#Comment_4112913
If I have get 2 downs and they are both marked has heretics, I don't exile both. Its a waste. 1 survivor will get 2 survivors out of exile. I exile one…hook the other. Waste more time for the survivors. Its better to do it this way unless if of course you are being beamed to death or they are on a pallet and you know someone is nearby then yes, just exile.
I do wish more people realized this.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
But let's just be real for a second, folks. Certain streamers have been advertising playstyles and builds for the judgement, and opinions on her have gone from "oh no, she's way too hard to play!" to landing snipe after snipe and snowballing the entire game.
There are DOZENS of perks killers have access to that will reveal survivor auras or give the killer a good idea of where the survivors are. So instead of having to apply that skill to do those "trick shots" in chase, they just go after easy snipes. What's more is that there's an addon that reveals survivor auras when sent to exile. And wouldn't you know it, that just makes the game snowball more.
The exile mechanic makes it so that you cannot even get flashlight or sabo saves, AND THEN, there is a mori on top of all that too.
This killer is like huntress on steroids, with attacks that not only phase through all obstacles like nurse, but AOE damage to boot. Oh, did I also mention the debuff acts like the really really old hex: ruin perk that makes gens regress? The way she is currently being played now is just tiresome and ridiculous.
Sure, it can be tiresome. But it's counterable. Paying attention, dodging, and forcing Judgment to a loop scenario where they have to over commit or bail will break them. If it's fundamentally so much of an issue there are a lot of perks that work well against them: anything that blocks aura read will serve you dividends.
Judgment is both ridiculously underpowered, and ridiculously overpowered. High skill ceiling characters operate in that fashion. This is as was intended, is it not? If Judgment did not function with high reward at high skill threshold, no one would play it. But if it operated uncounterably, it would be unfair.
What would your changes be to correct the killer? I've seen people say making exile count as hook states needs to be accommodated to avoid perk invalidation, and I'd be fine with that: I'd love to have pain res and BBQ as valid options. What would your suggestions be? -
@Artimenius1307 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/471729/i-m-quitting-because-of-the-judgement
"We were excited to try him. Then we played our first match"
I would like to clarify, was this entire post made after a singular game against Judgement? Because if yes, why did you bother making it? You are objectively not going to perfectly learn playing against a killer right away after only 1 game, so the entire post is redundant
I agree here. One match is not enough to have this kind of response.
@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112751#Comment_4112751
She's mid tier. If you play around aura builds she has rough time winning.
I'm killer main with deep sympathy for the survivors but if my whole team dies because they can't understand killer has nurses, don't dodge then who's fault is it?
Elan kind of nailed it here. We need both the time as a community to learn to play around her, as well as the active playing thought processes.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112634#Comment_4112634
I'm in the same boat about just making it universal, I think it would make it way too easy to instantly free a survivor across the map from the killer. On the other hand, the two shrines can be camped, and the spawn logic is terrible. I think the easiest way to fix it is to just increase it from the closest 2 to the closest 3 to allow for more breathing room for survivors while also not punishing the killer for using Exile
Regardless of which approach they take I think we can concur the spawn logic is flawed, at best.
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@pA4n_1337 said:
Spirit has Cherry Blossom. So people who struggle to hear can use that.
Add-ons are not accessibility features, they are consumables. That's not comparable.
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I'm torn on this. On one hand I think you're right, but on the other if I exile three people, the idea of being able to free them all from whatever shrine is most convenient for the surv feels a bit slap-in-the-facey. So I'm unsure where I sit on this if I'm honest. 😂
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@cammoking123 said:
You rarely even loop. It feels like you spend all the game out of chase trying to avoid the killers snipes.
Because you do. I mean, playing the judgment I just flat out don't chase. 99% of the time. I snipe, pick up, exile, repeat. Anyone in 10m range of me is in my weak zone, so I don't engage with them unless I have reason to try 360'ing them. Won't loop at all though.
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I mean…
This is literally a character whose primary strength revolves around locating and hitting survivors from large distances away, to the point that she is borderline useless inside of 10m. What build did people think she was going to run? Haste? She can't even run full hook builds effectively. So her options are… what? Full regress, or Aura?
Which of these would we rather see on a Judgment? She doesn't have a whole lot of other options available that would make sense, so of course she runs heavy aura. -
@Mikeadatrix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112241#Comment_4112241
As someone who thinks me contradicting myself (I didn't lol, "definitely strong and a powercrept Huntress" is factually accurate and by no stretch of your feverish and delulu imagination the same as PTW, nice try tho, pookie), I do have to say, hilarious that you avoided the fact that Nurse is free and the very first DLC killer. Yeah, aura perks are great on her. Is she PTW? She's the best killer in the game by a country mile, so tell me, is she PTW? She's effectively skill-less according to you, but tell me, is she PTW?
"Like get out of here man or at the very least be intellectually honest with yourself." Lol, lmao, ecks dee
In case you needed to hear it, Mike, you're speaking truth.
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@deception said:
So far I've had some issues going against the judgment where they'd just sit in the middle of the map and not even chase. Yes those beams are very avoidable but they use revealing perks and snipe us from the middle of the map without even giving chase and it's in avoidable other than moving out of its way.
This is how I play Judgment. Just pick a point near my totem and blast people. I won't leave the totem until I down someone. No point engaging, interacting, chasing or looping on an M1 with that long of a cooldown on their M2 to M1. I either 4k or 0k with no inbetween.
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I ran it, it's fun, but meh. I prefer my full aura run. Still diabolical.
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112196#Comment_4112196
Can you get queued against me?, I haven't seen a single survivor t-bagging when playing judgement, like t-bagging is just losing distance so I don't mind it and in gates they can't escape so I will take it any time.
Wouldn't help you any, I was the judgement.
@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112196#Comment_4112196
not gonna lie, I finally got my 3rd Judgment game after a dozen normal games and thats what I did. Honestly, Object is really funny for it.
I honestly don't blame you at this point. Judgment is so bloody T-baggable within 10m. What are they gonna do about it? Chase you down with their remarkable 4.4 M1 skills?
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I just ignore the anti tox maneuver. All it does, ironically, is incentivize cocky and toxic survivors to be more toxic and cocky as they do it anyway with an air of '*I'll take your debuff because you aren't #)*%% anyway.*'
It's kind of hilariously more toxic than other killers. -
@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111928#Comment_4111928
That doesn't counter the perk. The perk only species that if the obsesion is within 40 meters, the obsession switches to the farthest player. If the farthest player is 10 meters from you, they still become the obsession and have their aura revealed
Aha. Thank you.
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I love her and I'm still playing her, but she's just weak. For all the concern of her being OP, she has too many counter points. A SWF buries her, can't use hook perks sensibly, multiple people can be 'unhooked' at once, 4.4, close range looping isn't viable in 99% of cases, etc etc.
I find myself 4k'ing solo Q's or 0k'ing anything that resembles a SWF with half a brain. I also get insulted and called a tunneller a lot when, frankly, I have no idea who the hell I'm hitting with my beam on the other side of the map: but I'm not just gonna not hook them. Leads to a lot of instances where the bad dodger gets inadvertently tunneled out.
So I can see a lot of reasons people will avoid playing her. -
@Mandy said:
We tried to be very clear around the PTB time that this Killer is going to take some learning - its not a Killer that you're just going to pick up and play well instantly, it is very high skilled, probably one of the highest (if not the highest) in the game so far.
I know that's not for everyone, not everyone wants to put the time into learning how to play a killer - or has the time even with how busy life can get (yes that's me!), but we fully expect those who are putting the time in and can pick up this killer to be absolutely beasts with it. We also need to see how survivors are able to adapt to the power, its part of why we were looking at the vignette and what would be required there. Its going to take some time before things start to become apparent here.
Gotta agree with Mandy here. I'm pulling consistent 3k's and 4k's when I don't hit SWF's. SWF's are impossible to face if they pay attention, but meh who cares. Still slaughters the bulk well enough at the moment.
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I dunno I'm fine with The Judgment. They're hard countered by any half decent SWF you encounter and you should expect 0k if you ever hit a SWF. But they slaughter Solo Queue, so I guess they have that going for them. Just ignore all melee and anyone inside of 10m and let them do whatever.
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Just ran this for ten games total. I… I don't get it? If I want 'oblivious' I'll just double down on a full obsession build with furtive chase, and then I get haste as well. If I want the aura read, I'm better off with Deerstalkers and nurses calling. I appreciate it may be unfun to face this but I don't think it's problematic: primarily because I can get similar and better results and status' for longer, with a high momentum build that takes better advantage of the conditions.
If anything I'd be glad to see a killer running this.