I have no idea how Judgement is good for the game
The Judgement literally destroys so many builds, items, offerings, and perks in this game. Builds have become extremely limited with the only builds I have found to be decent are the gen rush builds and healing builds, especially with skill checks being more frequent. I don't care how strong this killer is in a chase, what makes them awful is limiting playstyles.
Just to name a few perks that are virtually unusable:
Babysitter
Borrowed Time
Boil Over
Boon: Exponential
Breakdown
Breakout
Camaraderie
Come and Get Me
Decisive Strike
Deliverance
Fast Track
Flip Flop
Kindred
Off the Record
Power Struggle
Reassurance
Resurgence
Saboteur
Second Wind
Self Preservation
Shoulder the Burden
Slippery meat
Up the Ante
We'll Make it
Wicked
Soft Counters
Aftercare
Conviction
For the People
Last Stand
Soul Guard
Tenacity
Unbreakable
Flash Bang
Items:
Flashlights
Sabotage toolboxes
Fireworks/Winter Party Starter
Offerings
Petrified Oak
Vigo's Jar of Salty Lips
Black Salt Statuette
Ivory Salt Pouch
Cream Chalk Pouch
Salt Pouch
Chalk Pouch
Plan on using a Flashlight to get a save on a teammate or blind at a pallet? You get sin
Want blood points for unhooking? That's usually about 3.5k with safe unhooks. Against the Other Realm "unhook" state? Have about half of that.
Coming out of the realm and the killer sees you? Down, back to the realm. No d strike or trying to kobe on first hook
Also really enjoy bhvr giving killers free perks base or add-ons [Ghoul with Bamboozle, Judgement with Blood Warden, Knight with Blood Warden Knights, String Trap with mini Blood warden for the player, Legion with Dissolution, etc]
Comments
There's this really cool killer that came out about 6 years ago called Pyramid head that can do the same thing.
He counters every single perk. Wanna list all the killer perks they cant use either?
phead can't simply snipe across the map. Judgement doesnt have to chase like phead to secure downs.
God forbid we get a killer that plays different.
Ngl I'm really enjoying judgement from both sides of the game. It's something very different and just requires a different kind of counterplay. I've been having great fun mindgaming in chase as and against judgement. Chases with her are enjoyable and rewarding.
As well as locking out survivors from perks, the power also locks judgement out of a lot of killer perks too. Any hook based perk, and basic hit perks are kinda useless on her.
I get why she can be frustrating to go against but if people are getting sniped across map that's because they aren't paying attention. It's easily avoidable if you're keeping an eye out. Honestly she's a breath of fresh air compared to a lot of new killers. Much more fun than crouch simulator two tap machine that is jason. Id take a judgement game any day. Eck even being exiled is kinda fun definitely better than just hanging on hook.
P.s. also slug perks like tencity and expo etc do have use against her. Judgements tend to slug a bit if they have the opportunity for double downs.
Correct. Instead you see a beam of light that travels up to 60 meters, while getting to see its aura from over 25 meters away through walls with directional sound audio.
Tenacity, Unbreakable, and B: Exponential are actually strong against her. …but I'd also put some more perks on that list—so neither here nor there.
I agree with the sentiment.
The difference I see between the two killers is that PHead's primary power does not circumvent hooks whereas Judgement's does. Survivors can avoid the cage by avoiding the Rites.
Judgement's chase is so weak that she will inevitably down you with her range attack, which means you should almost never be hooked unless the Judgement determines it is strategically advantageous to do so (and it rarely is).
If I have get 2 downs and they are both marked has heretics, I don't exile both. Its a waste. 1 survivor will get 2 survivors out of exile. I exile one…hook the other. Waste more time for the survivors. Its better to do it this way unless if of course you are being beamed to death or they are on a pallet and you know someone is nearby then yes, just exile.
It's also a lot harder for PH to torment survivors.
The 2-for-1 recovery is only a concern if you downed both survivors near eachother. …but I already acknowledged there are (rare) cases in which the Judgement hooks someone, so I'm not sure why we are still debating it.
OP's post resonates with me specifically because all of my preset survivor builds are comically useless against Judgement.
Support - "Anti-Tunnel"
Support - "Hook Stall"
Support - "Sabo Everything"
Chase - "Solo Struggle"
Chase - "Slug Me" (SWF)
Chase - "Slug Me" (Solo)
Gens - "Crank Faster"
I haven't run a healing build since the diminishing returns, but even if I did, the fact every Judgement is running Nurses' makes it a risky pick. Its hard to look at my presets and say "I'm glad all this build diversity is going out the window"
Her gameplay locks her out of a lot of perks as well, but she actually knows ahead of time and can create a fully functioning build. There are very few survivor builds I've found that actually work well against her, even out of the ones that don't get turned completely useless by Exile. I tried running a full killer aura build. It works, but it's hardly useful against the Judgment a lot of the time because it's most useful in an m1 chase in a tile, while the only time I get m1'd by a Judgment is at a terrible filler. I was running a Teamwork and Blood Pact build with my buddy, that doesn't really help either and in fact can be detrimental staying so close to your teammate.
The only builds that I can think of that are fully functioning against a sniping killer that ignores all hook and saving perks are 1. heal builds 2. boon builds 3. genrush builds. And that reflects in the fact that I've seen way more boon and genrush builds since the update. I like looping against this killer, but it's extremely frustrating how limiting it is to play against them.
Judgement/PH are the only killers. There are 42+ Killers. Your builds in most cases will work just fine. There aren't many judgement players and there wont be many due to how hard she is.
I have barely seen her and she just released.
As a survivor one has no defense against aura reading builds. Tried Distortion it was gone instantly also interesting enough it doesn't even register the chases unless the killer right behind you. I suppose the play to wait for teammates to die and survive with sole survivor as the aura deny quite good. Thanks to mmr reset soloq is miserable
Your initial position was that the precedent was already set with PHead. Now your position is that the Judgement is the only killer, therefore it is a non-issue. Neither positions dispute OP's concern over the design's health for the game, might I add.
Were I to provide a genuine response, I imagine you might change your position once more to continue this dismissive pattern of communication. Are you interested in having a good-faith conversation or would you rather be a contrarian?
Once you realize more than half of those are perks nobody runs it seems a lot less like a problem. Then once you realize different killers shut down different builds like Plague with healing and any stealth killer with aura reading this seems like a silly thing to complain about. And then after all that when you realize survivors can run perks that can shutdown certain killers (Twins facing anti slugging perks for instance) this thread just seems massively hypocritical.
Shadow Step and A Place For Us are both very good against Judgement on aura reading, if you're looking for perks to try out to counter those builds specifically. Inner Strength is also quite good against both the aura build and as a solid payoff against her more totem focused playstyle. While not necessarily a counter in the traditional sense, Object of Obsession also lets you very quickly figure out what aura reading she's on and hit her with an "I'm getting my aura revealed? No, WE'RE getting our aura revealed" playstyle that is surprisingly strong against her given how slow she is to actually traverse the map. We See You can also be decent payoff, but can really backfire if she's on Deerstalker, so be careful on that one.
Pretty much this.
Plague counters healing builds, Legion counters stealth builds, Doctor counters skillcheck builds,… a killer countering a type of build is completely normal and brings in some gameplay variety.
I do wish more people realized this.
Only time it makes any sense to put two in exile is if you are in a hook deadzone or if you know the last survivor is nowhere near to get to a shrine and you can get after them straight away.
The Killer is very non-interactive its true. Playing against Judgement is less DBD and more Frogger. Sometimes you get hit without even seeing the Killer
I dont think you can compare those two. From my experience, it is very rare that Pyramid Head can sent people to Cages. And most just keep it for the Mini Mori.
For Judgment, except for one time, I have seen all Survivors been sent to the Exile. It is far more consistent for this Killer to do this.
That the Killer can also not use certain Perks is also not really relevant. There are still enough Perks to be used AND the Killer always knows what Killer will be in the game. So they just dont bring Hook-Perks. Survivors dont have that luxury, depending on your Build, you end up with a bunch of useless Perks against Judgment.
This is such a biased and short-sighted "non answer" from a killer main who prolly hasn't played survivor in who knows how long 🙄 no $#!+ certain killers can counter certain builds, that's not a problem. What is a problem is when the new killer that you see 20+ matches in a gd row (shame on the person a few posts above trying to gaslight us into believing 'nobody plays this killer' smdh) can counter literally 50% or more of the viable builds that are out there. So no, this does not promote "build diversity" if anything this will encourage players to use the only 2 or 3 builds that are any good against them. To be quite honest this has been the most disappointing killer release in a long time and the Survivor lobby being at a constant 1.75x multiplier since this god awful killer released last Tuesday should be all the evidence you need that no one likes playing against this killer. I don't even know how bhvr could release this killer in it's current state without being completely ashamed of themselves imho it's incredibly unfun and frustrating to play against no matter how many matches you have to "practice" against it.
I agree as far as PHead being a poor comparison. Would you say that Plague and Sadako (at least current Sadako 3.0 with her condemned focus playstyle) are better points of reference? They're a lot closer in my opinion as far as being characters that completely shift the paradigm of a trial in ways that might interfere with certain builds, with that variant of Sadako even largely avoiding hooking in general outside of tape destruction. Personally, I think that kind of design is actually an overall positive as long as it doesn't become an overly frequent choice for killer releases.
"Just do gens" is why I havent logged in Survivor.
How about no? That's not fun, like at all.
Hmm.. I think two things can be true at once here. On one hand , having a killer like the Judgment is refreshing compared to some of the more recent styles we’ve gotten. Certainly new and brings a different way to engage entirely for both as and against, which is something I think the game needed. A very cool killer.
On the other hand, I can agree that simply by how she works it does further limit perk choices, and does so in a very stale meta that has gotten quite a few major perks nerfed recently which tightens the perk choices even more.
It’s true that Judgment is not the first to do this, as there are plenty of instances where you may bring a perk that is not useful because of the killer or even the map. It’s part of the RNG. But I do also agree that I don’t think it’d be a particularly healthy step forward in the game if this happened more frequently. There’s certainly a difference between a perk that won’t get you a lot of value because of RNG and a perk that can’t even be activated because of RNG, and because survivors can’t see which killer they are facing it does significantly impact them in a different way.
I can understand how something like SB was overtuned and deemed unhealthy for the game because it tended to shut down interactions with many m1 killers. But in the same way, the Judgment does the same thing with many survivor perks, but I don’t the answer is nerfing them, I think their strength should be strong because of the skill it takes to use it.
Perhaps this is more of a Nurse situation where it probably wouldn’t be healthy to use either Nurse or Judgment as a benchmark of balance and strive to create more killers like them because they change the game and shutdown interactions in such a distinctive way, but the skill expression required to do well with them kind of gives them a pass.
A bit rambly here but I just don’t think there’s an easy answer. I think the Judgment is really cool, I love the change of pace they bring to the game, and I don’t think they need to be nerfed. Frankly a small buff may be in order for help with close range. But I can’t just ignore that they do shut down many perks, and I’ve never really been a fan of that because survivor perks are the survivors “power” and in the same way it isn’t enjoyable for a m1 killer power to struggle because of certain perks, it isn’t enjoyable for a quarter or so of your “power” to be dead on arrival through no fault of your own.
Boons can be kinda rough with thrill hex builds going around. If all the good spots are hex totem spawns or you get interrupted 90% to blessing a dull it really sucks.
I actually play both sides and until recently played survivor way more so this kinda ad hominem isn't gonna work, sorry. So Judgement isn't that popular on release compared to other killers so there is no doubt she'll be very rare to face once the dust settles and at night least survivor multiplier is only 1.1x so not really sure what you're talking about.
…and when you realize every survivor in every match is running the same few perks, because they have the highest probability of value, will it seem like more or less of a problem to you?
She does nix a lot of perks builds to be sure. I find healing and gen rush builds (not hyperfocus tho) work well against her.
It's kind of offset by the fact that her attack is very dodgeable. I'm as a rule pretty mid at running chase as a survivor, and actively bad at looping. But I'm crushing judgements in chase because I've got a good feel for her ability.
My best advice is to run inner strength. It's a regular feature in my builds anyway, but it works particularly well against sniper judgements as if you have a crushed totem in your back pocket you can quickly recover from a long range hit. Combo with quick and quiet and I've even managed to to pull of locker heals midchase against judgements since they often stay at midrange and break los often.
She has a very different gameplay style to other killers, and it catches a lot of people off guard. But personally I find it refreshing, anything that shakes up the boring meta is a good thing imo.
Sounds like it's time for a changing meta to me and to that I say good riddance the meta has been the same for a long time.
The easy answer is to just let survivors see who the killer is in the lobby. Gonna get flak for this but it's stupid that killers main power just fully removes multiple builds that were never that strong to begin with. All this does is force a gen rush meta even more which is boring and the Judgement as a killer is actually super fun to go against for the most part. Will this change the meta? Yes. Will this make killers pick something other than nurse and blight? Also yes because yeah I know people will dodge lobbies. Will this almost instantly solve the issue of people dcing and giving up instantly? Also yes since people will know what they are getting into before they ready up. But it does mean we'll probably have to buff several killers and rework old outdated perks which people will complain about.
That is not what I asked.
Would you rather only a few perks be run in most games, because the rest offer such little value and/or are unreliable, or would you rather a gamut of perks be used (by both sides)?
you're more than welcome to change your perks. None of my perks have been affected by this killer shrug
First post and you're spitting venom and calling people you have never met "killer mains who prolly hasn't played survivor in who knows how long 'obnoxious eyeroll emoji'" with absolutely zero basis.
May these forums never change lmao.
Like I said, I enjoy looping this killer. I've actually started running into some pretty damn good Judgments that I imagine have been no-lifing playing the new killer, and even if it's really difficult it's still fun to get chased. In fact, despite me thinking this killer will be extremely powerful in the right hands, I want the light beams to be buffed, maybe adding back the 0.5s of control and perhaps making it slightly easier for close range hits somehow.
However, I feel this would need to come with some way to unrestrict some of the survivor perk usage. I understand that certain perks like Inner Healing could be very good against this killer, as that's the case with every killer. However the issue is that inherently as a long range m2 killer, a ton of perks already don't get value (like I mentioned with my examples of the aura and duo haste builds), and the nature of Exile makes a bunch of the perks that probably wouldn't be affected so much completely useless a lot of the time. I enjoy being chased by this killer, and I don't have much of an issue dodging snipes (except when she has like 6s of aura reading in Zealous, then if it's a good Judgment they just adjust the light to be right on top of me sometimes), I want to like this killer so bad but the feeling of almost any build I have being made useless or barely having an impact is such a frustrating feeling.
The game does need a meta shakeup, but that should come with perk changes, such as hopefully in the mid chapter 45 perk patch. It should not corral survivors into the very few builds that still work well against one killer. A killer or perks can counter certain builds or perks, that's fine. Healing builds will not work against Plague, aura builds will not work very often against a stealth killer / a killer with undetectable perks. But especially because half the perks on each side of the fence are pretty bad or even borderline useless, there are a lot of builds that get shut down by her power or at the very least have little impact / usefulness. I don't want to be told for the rest of my time playing DBD that it's my fault for running one of these 20 builds and randomly getting a Judgment who counters it. I don't want to be forced to use a small set of perks that is actually still impactful against her.
I mean, sure, but this person was specifically struggling with aura reading, which is what I was suggesting answers to. If someones running the hex build and you're on boons its largely fine to just not boon hex totems specifically until you cleanse Thrill, and Thrill got a pretty heavy nerf that makes those builds a lot more tolerable anyways.
Except this is a strawman. You're just saying only a few perks are viable when that isn't actually true.
Plenty of killers negate perk builds. Legion and ghould make heals kind of pointless. Nurse pretty much kills every chase perk in the game.
I just don't see that it's a huge issue. Considering it's her release week and hardly anyone is playing her it won't be a colossal problem plus her power is fairly simple to dodge and bait so games againstbher are more about skill rather than perk builds.
It'll be an agree to disagree I guess.
I think they are more close than Pyramid Head, that is for sure. With Sadako, it really depends. If it is a slugging Sadako, then I would say it is quite close to Judgment. However, if it is a Sadako who teleports around a lot to increase Condemned, I would not see it as drastic. Simply because you can do the Tapes as Survivor which is way more Counterplay to Condemned than you have to Judgment using the Beams.
Plague on the other hand indeed shuts down a complete part of the game (healing). However, I think that shutting off healing is less damaging than shutting off Hook Perks. Plus, after all, it is still the Survivors decision to heal or stay broken. So if there is a team with a bunch of Healing Perks, it might sense to cleanse, even if it makes Plague much stronger. With Judgment you dont have that.
And another important aspect is that both Plague and Sadako (and PH) are way weaker than Judgment. Dont get me wrong, they are all decent Killers with Plague being strong, especially with some of her Add Ons. But they dont compare to Judgment, who is easily a Top 5 Killer. So I think it is the combination of rendering a lot of Perks useless (especially important things like Anti-Tunnel… Which also got nerfed in this Patch with shaving of 5 seconds of Endurance)) and being such a strong Killer.
IMO the only saving grace is that Judgment is rare because most people dont bother to learn her.
Do you want to engage in a conversation or are buzz words all I'm going to hear from you?
I'm asking you to clarify your position on the topic. Please look up the definition of 'strawman,' for everyone's sake.
One last time…
Would you rather only a few perks be run in most games, because the rest offer such little value and/or are unreliable, or would you rather a gamut of perks be used (by both sides)?
If you can't answer that, I'm not going to waste my time talking to you.
I'm assuming Judgment will turn into Nurse where she is barely seen, yet one of the strongest killers in the game. My guess is that she's mainly gonna be one of those winstreak killers that either go on crazy streaks or end crazy streaks.
I think also there's the fact that the Judgment completely negates anti-tunnel perks, but I guess if you think that's alright as well we just wholeheartedly disagree with each other
As someone who mainly plays survivor I know that I’m a little biased. But I genuinely think the Judgement would be a lot healthier if they just gave their power an actual cooldown. I’ve played way too many games now where all they do is sit on a high spot in the middle of the map and just repeatedly send their beam across the map with aura reading perks and add-ons. Just give it an actual cooldown and then we can have real chases. The thing I’m seeing is people saying they are fun in chase, but they almost never really even have to start chases. There are so many builds that allow them to gain free information and just spam ability.
TLDR: Buff her more. Really?
I think its fine because Judgement is really bad at tunneling if you're playing around her power and shrines well. She's bad at guarding traditional hooks because her power has built in anti-camp and she's 4.4 (and traditional hooks would activate those perks anyways), she doesn't know which exile shrines are active by default, and even if she figures it out through visuals or knowing where the closest two shrines are beforehand she really can't guard both, especially not both AND objectives at the same time. Even once you get rescued, she doesn't get a notification, so she doesn't know from where unless she has direct line of sight, and you'll have 13~15 seconds of endurance, elusive, and the unhook speed boost that makes you the same speed as her if you've collected souls.
The times I've seen Judgement ACTUALLY straight up tunneling someone instead of just finding them later it has always been because people rescue too quickly, usually with her still around, and frequently followed by trying to heal inside her terror radius instead of making any kind of distance. Even in the worst case scenario, where she knows which shrines are active and is trying to guard them (and you aren't able to force her to commit to anything for some reason), stealthing until she charges her power at an objective and then rescuing from a shrine she's not on top of is hard counterplay to that strategy, and allows the rescued survivor to prerun her for filth if she makes the mistake of committing.
I mean we'd just go in circles. You're presenting a nonexistent world where only a few perks are viable. We don't live in that world so it's a pointless question.
It was a very simple question to establish common ground on what an ideal version of DBD looks like.
But you're not interested in having this discussion in good faith. What a shame.
It's not really the same because he doesn't apply it on his attack, but by his traps.
The issue here is Judgement applies it on her main projectile.
If she banishes survivors they can be pulled from basically anywhere on the map meaning she can't tunnel easily. If she hooks them instead then they activate as normal.
I've seen people spawn on top of her multiple times
That's user error, when someone interacts with a shrine to rescue a banished surv they will appear near the shrine. So that can happen if someone triggers a shrine under her nose, which happens inordinately often, but that's a survivor misplay
It also happens a lot against your will in solo Q, which is a huge issue you can't exactly control