I have no idea how Judgement is good for the game
The Judgement literally destroys so many builds, items, offerings, and perks in this game. Builds have become extremely limited with the only builds I have found to be decent are the gen rush builds and healing builds, especially with skill checks being more frequent. I don't care how strong this killer is in a chase, what makes them awful is limiting playstyles.
Just to name a few perks that are virtually unusable:
Babysitter
Borrowed Time
Boil Over
Boon: Exponential
Breakdown
Breakout
Camaraderie
Come and Get Me
Decisive Strike
Deliverance
Fast Track
Flip Flop
Kindred
Off the Record
Power Struggle
Reassurance
Resurgence
Saboteur
Second Wind
Self Preservation
Shoulder the Burden
Slippery meat
Up the Ante
We'll Make it
Wicked
Soft Counters
Aftercare
Conviction
For the People
Last Stand
Soul Guard
Tenacity
Unbreakable
Flash Bang
Items:
Flashlights
Sabotage toolboxes
Fireworks/Winter Party Starter
Offerings
Petrified Oak
Vigo's Jar of Salty Lips
Black Salt Statuette
Ivory Salt Pouch
Cream Chalk Pouch
Salt Pouch
Chalk Pouch
Plan on using a Flashlight to get a save on a teammate or blind at a pallet? You get sin
Want blood points for unhooking? That's usually about 3.5k with safe unhooks. Against the Other Realm "unhook" state? Have about half of that.
Coming out of the realm and the killer sees you? Down, back to the realm. No d strike or trying to kobe on first hook
Also really enjoy bhvr giving killers free perks base or add-ons [Ghoul with Bamboozle, Judgement with Blood Warden, Knight with Blood Warden Knights, String Trap with mini Blood warden for the player, Legion with Dissolution, etc]
Comments
it's really not hard to dodge if you just look at the screen.
I dont agree with ppl comparing her to PH. PH is a very buns killer while she is not. Its almost impossible to not be sinned yet its very easy to not step in his trail lmao. I think the exile should work with all perks survivor and killer perks. If somebody is playing her efficiently and is tunneling theres just no counter. Theres been MULTIPLE times i spawned in the beam of light and instantly got put in mend with no loops near by at all.
I mean no you were trying to suggest you can only use a few perks against Judgement which isn't true. You're just being disingenuous.
I have to say, i do find it amusing that Vigil gets nerfed for countering everything in the same update that we get a killer who is good at countering everything lol
No need to change Judgement really. This could be fixed by having survivor perks activate on gaining a hook state rather than being hooked. (I don’t want to hear about Shoulder as something that would break that. If someone wants to give themselves a hook state just to activate Dead Hard or Decisive Strike - fine, who cares?)
Killer perks aren’t as big of a deal comparatively since they can always choose to hook vs. exile/cage if they want to activate associated effects. Scourge hooks would still need to be scourge hooks - there’s not really anything that can be done about that.
I've tried boons against the Judgement. I thought expo would be good. It just ended up with her sniping at me. Because I'm assuming a lot of Judgements are running Undying. And honestly, they make boons so loud and easy to find that it's only a matter of time before your boon is snuffed out.
This is incorrect, the shrines that the survivor can be rescued from are the two closest to where the exile occurred. The gameplay showcase even gives a tip to consider carrying the survivor to a better location for you before exiling them. Additional further shrines will activate if the Judgment stays within close proximity of the active shrines but that takes additional time and for the Judgment to camp the currently active shrines (no idea on the range/duration required for additional shrines to activate).
I can agree that rescuing while the killer is nearby is user error but the killer is able to watch the hud for the rescue and return to the area they exiled from to find the survivor. Unless they hard camped the area they will have an idea of where the rescue occurred. Between the inability to body block, the non-existence of anti-tunnel perks, a power that can hit cross map, and how effective aura reading is on this killer they are capable of tunneling extremely effectively. I think how things currently work is fine by the way but I don't think we should downplay that this is another killer that is good at tunneling.
I feel like I'm on here a good bit speaking from a survivor main standpoint and even fully support the end of tunneling and camping and stuff in the game but honestly, I am extremely surprised to even say it but The Judgement is fine with me, because she brings one of the few things I really do want from this game which is a unique killer playstyle…
way too many killers are basically "Knife Guy" with a movement ability that comes running at you and that makes the game experience even worse when its a hard tunnel or a full slowdown build or something stupid and annoying to deal with. I wish we got MORE killers like The Judgement (not literally the same obviously) who seem to have the match shaped at least somewhat around them rather than being shaped around the match. I would rather face the judgement any day over the soulless reworked "Knife Guy" Dash Merchant Myers, because he doesn't provide anything interesting or different to interact with.
But its also not really possible to deny the danger of adding killers to the game that ignore dozens of perks and builds… unfortunately the game works too much around perk balance to keep things as is imo.
Also, there are definitely things I DONT like about The Judgement either (Early Stomp Potential, Uninteractive Playstyle Potential, 3gen master) but I would rather a killer be very thematic and impact the match in a way that feels like "I am facing this killer and the other ones aren't like this killer" than unviable in annoying circumstances… I wish Behavior put more emphasis on the core gameplay in this way than they do with perks…
It is okay for you to disagree with the position laid out by OP, but it is not right to call me disingenuous when you've not heard what I have to say.
I've attempted to establish common ground so that we're not talking around eachother.
Rather than participate in a constructive conversation, you've been nothing but dismissive and dogmatic.
It is most ironic that you have accused me of being disingenuous and making a strawman argument.
Unless your intention is to troll, I would implore you to revisit this exchange once you're able to emotionally detach yourself from the position being argued.
We're no longer talking about OP, so good day.
First of all, It was just a typo when I responded. I was answering while at work. Didnt have time to edit my post…Second..You said it yourself. You avoid cages by avoiding barbwire on the ground. You avoid Exile, by not getting beamed down constantly and being aware of your surrounds. There is directional sound audio and 25+ meter aura reading on her power. Your builds are great builds and will work on 42 members of the killer roster. There is nothing further I wish to add to this conversation.
I hear you - however in my experience playing PH. I get a lot of cages. I never wait on them or hook for later. I just keep reapplying torment over and over. They either avoid my torment and have to take the long way, risk getting downed, or take the path you wish but get tormented. I give them those 2 options. lol
Due to judgement not being 4.6 and her beam goes 60 meters. Sure you can do map wide if you want with an addon but the survivors get the benefit of seeing the aura of the beam by another 200% in addition to the recent buff, so essentially. Anywhere you will see the beam.
PH should never be able to apply it on his attack. We tried that. It was dangerous. Too dangerous. He is able to zone immensely, m2 fake, and close in on opponents much much easier. Judgement however really struggles at close range.
Um, everyone's trying to have good rage fight and you're just coming in here with some common sense proposals?
So basically coz she moves slower but has a much longer reach she isn't an issue in applying compared to the killer who is also deemed bad if he can't hit his m2's which are hard to control.
It doesn't make sense to me, she can zone crazy well too, just look at good players with her.
Correct. In my opinion. Her beams are quite flexible when it comes to dodging them. Its telegraphed up to 25+ meters away. (I think its actually 30. I could be wrong though) In addition you can go to statues to repent. Most survivors do not when they are hit across the map. They choose to greed the gen or wait till the last second until its too late and she's right on top of the survivor.
When I get hit halfway across the map - I go to a statue and repent asap. I don't wait and I can tell you most survivors are waiting WAY too long to do anything about it much like Sadako's condemn stacks.
Huh didn't know that. that seems like a huge design mistake on bhvrs part, no way they should've had it work like that, should work like PH's one where it activates the furthest ones.
Be that as it may it's still hard to camp the shrines as killer doesn't see the auras of the activated shrines.
Soloq has always been a mess though. Can't really use that as an indicator of how balanced a killer is, because most killers absolutely slap soloq teams, even super weak ones like trapper and skull merchant.
Judgment lethality is very low, highly driven by aura perks that allow them to hit some cross map hits. Yet she's not S or A tier, low B maybe and once people learn hot to play against aura builds as they were never popular it will be even easier to win against her, thus none of these perks will be needed.
I mean, that’s a pretty reductive reading of what I wrote lol. My point was that I like her design and think the skill expression is good, can see an area where she could use some help, but I also think the fact that this killer can, just by existing, invalidate a pretty large chunk of survivor perks could get unhealthy if it became a more common thing.
Those aretwo separate issues. Whether Judgment could use a little help with the close range interaction has nothing to do with whether I like the fact that they can shut down a bunch of survivor perks. That part isn’t really about skill on either side. The survivor doesn’t get to play around it because they don’t know they’re facing Judgment when they choose their perks, and the killer doesn’t have to demonstrate skill to make those perks unusable, which is my main criticism.
Maybe this will be more helpful?
TLDR; Buff close range maybe. Judgment cool. Perk shutdown kinda sucks, don’t want it to be common or it could be problematic
it is possible to see the good and the not so good at the same time.
That much is true, I've personally had no trouble going to a statue to start removing the Heresy, I also find a good strat if you want to use your hook perks is to take the m1 from from her instead of dodge the beams, if she refuses to m1 then she is forced to prolong the chase really awkwardly as its really hard for her to do close close range shots.
I do think there is maybe pain points for both sides they could perhaps refine.
That aside myself? I do enjoy going against her.
Maybe this would be an issue if Judgement were a top tier killer. Instead of a 4.4 with a telegraphed M2.
Sorry, but in stressing the ease with which one can dodge Judgement’s beam, you are implying that Judgement cannot learn to outplay a “good” survivor.
Is that your opinion? That landing attacks are more akin to a broken clock being right twice a day than an expression of skill?
I cant speak for OP, but I’m not worried about my perks being useless against an inexperienced Killer.
all this killer does is exile never hooks if the survivor got heretics i hate this killer
If I have 2 survivors down that are heretics. I hook one and exile the other for more pressure.
Same.
Hey, just following up in case you missed my last message…
I average 2.5 hooks a game and have a 71% kill rate.
For reference, my average kill rate across all killers is 75.59% and I average 7.61 hooks (My PH average is 5.5 hooks).
Just thought I'd leave this here and we can circle back when I've more experience on the killer. Cheers.
Edit: Minor update. Kill rate up 9% after 12 more games, while hooks down .03
…waiting for MMR to adjust and the survivors to start avoiding exile. Soon™?
It disables most of survivor perks.
Also the judgement seeing all the survivors all the time.
Yes one might dodge 10 beams in a row, but a mistake bound to happen. 6 sec spawning new one, and you expected to react within 0,3 sec according to new buff, is the devs thinking everyone teen with extremely fast reaction times?
I notice that typical judgement sits at 3 gens snipping from afar mostly, only the most coordinated swf has any odds breaking it.
Answer: He's not, but people will cope regardless. Doesn't matter if they released literal thanos into the game its all fair
She also isnt hard to play, most people run full aura builds, there is no defense against that on survivor side, she sees everyone all the time.
So she just snipes from afar constantly while holding 3 gens from the very start.
So hard is massive oversell, never saw a chase judgement at all its always long range sniping also she disables most of survivor perks as well.
I wouldn't be surprised if her winrate very high against solo especially
Saying there's no defense against aura reading is a joke when shadowstep and distortion exists otherwise what aura are you worried about?
Nurses? Don't heal in their TR.
Gearhead? Only useful for sniping so just be aware and dodge the beam.
Celestial Witness/Nemesis? Get near her and the aura read won't even trigger.
Darkness Revealed? So many maps have bad locker spawns this won't even trigger most of the time.
Like yes you'll get snipes occasionally but to actually go down you have to 1. Work on a gen while injured 2. Somehow make the choice to STILL not pay attention to your surroundings after getting sniped once. If that happens you deserve to get downed at that point.
For the past few weeks, I've been copying the exact build of the survivor with lowest (or next lowest if its me) and using it until I escape a match and then copying the lowest survivor build again and using that until I escape ect.
The other day I was using 4 boon perks; Expo, CoH, Shadow Step and Steadfast. Loaded into a match on Forgotten Ruins against a Judgement. I managed to set up a boon underground that was pretty much in the middle of the map. The match ended up as a total stalemate. The killer didnt bother to hunt the totem and was nearly totally blind, apart from behind the castle and killer shack, due to Shadow Step, and just spammed out beams over and over to different gens.
It turned into a match from a few years back when The Knight and Skull Merchant were first released, of holding a three gen and survivors getting hit and running off to the other side of the map to heal in the boon with auras hidden to the killer. Nearly 45 minutes this went on for! A SWF would have no doubt been able to beat it, but for random solos it still wasnt possible, even with her being mostly blind.
I wonder if this is how BHVR anticipated the Judegment games going? I somehow doubt it!
This killer does even better at higher levels as well because she negates most of the survivor skill. She has some of the best 3genning mechanics in the game, is insane at tunneling, can sort of camp for free, negates all survivor perks and can hit you ANYWHERE on the map.
If they are half decent, which is not that hard, they are pretty much unbeatable in chase let alone the insane map pressure, anti perk and time saving abilities in their kit. It's Vecna on steriods and that killer is already horrific enough.
Well if devs let her be this way I just stop playing survivor and switch to this chill killer experience
Please do, you clearly lack experience from the other side of the fence
and all those perks shouldn’t of been denied with him either. Caging/exiling should be treated the exact same way for perk activation as hooking.
Reading this makes me more confident Judgment is fine because most of this is just not true. Camping with her isn't free, she can't use her power around hooks and there's two shrines you can rescue from exile with. I'm not even going to address the idea she counters EVERY survivor perk because that's obviously a joke and she can't hit you anywhere on the map it's only 60 meters which is about half the map usually.
Okay if you take everything I said there literally sure but my point still stands.
This killer is the definition of mega power creep and creating more and more blatantly OP killers to satisfy a particular audience in the community. Why would you ever play artist when this killer exists, its blatantly a 1000 times better version of her, and artist ISN’T EVEN A BAD KILLER. People complained about nurse for years because she ignores fundamental game mechanics, but then when this killer and Vecna2 do just that suddenly its not a problem and I don't get it. These killers are even easier than nurse and way more frustrating to play against.
I mean Artist is way better at shutting down loops than Judgement is so I could see someone who prefers micro play over macro preferring Artist. I also disagree that Judgement is easier than Nurse, I mean at a base level against survivors that don't bother paying attention and let you snipe them sure. But against good survivors paying attention you suddenly rely on prediction shots a lot more which is a lot harder than Nurse just teleporting to you twice.
I disagree. Its called a special hook for a reason.
no i’d love to get pop value from caging.
Oh I mean yeah me too. 100%
If we did that though we would have to let survivors use their perks to be fair. That's why I would like to keep it as is.
I'd be down for that in full. If it counted as hooking and unhooking all around it would be sensibly balanced and fair. My only objection is from the one side or the other argument.
Would be nice to get something like pop/BBQ/etc on exile. Though I wonder how 'scourge' hooks would work with exile, as it would need to be addressed. Given you can exile three survs and it only takes one action to free them, would be senseless to not count exiles as scourges to even it out.
when the answer to every killer is to pre run and not engage, it makes sense to get a killer that forces survivors to dodge the killer. There's a reason people turn to Ghoul. But the only other answer to pre running is hyper mobility, which we already have enough of.
How many Nurses, Blights and Ghouls do we need?
Yeah for sure…I'd rather just keep it as is. Its balanced. Survivors lose perks. Killers lose perks. It works out. Don't change what isnt broken.
The issue i am seeing is, that the alternate hook mechanic is basically unavoidable. With pyramid head cages are a nice passive power that replaces some of the hooks during the game. With judgement it's the standard. A hooking judgement is the exception.
I feel like this is where the add ons come in like we have "kind of pain res" with detonators and "kind of BBQ" with blindfold and then we get to run 4 perks on top of it so I don't think it's a bad deal even with the restrictions on those add ons.
I agree. I personally don't much care for those add-ons, but you're right in that the option is present. I think Mech has hit the nail on the head in that it seems best both sides just miss out on perks. Ultimately the exile mechanic is more detrimental to overall play then it is beneficial to the killer, as multiple can be 'unhooked' at once which is a dramatic shift in pressure creation.
I'd leave it as it is if I had the option myself. But if it becomes so much of an issue, that 'multi unhook' thing is going to be a thorn in the side of balancing making exiles count as hooking and unhooking actions.
I can't even imagine how you'd operate STB against unhooking three people at once.
Supposedly the incentive to exile multiple people is the seeds of punishment in there get more aggressive the more people are in there but survivors just wait to liberate if a second person gets downed and then liberate both so in my experience it never has a chance to actually work. Honestly woulda been nice to have some exile add ons to make them more aggressive with just one person in there.
On the other hand there is only 1 perk on the survivor side that will stop the killer from seeing the generators, which they can keep hitting repeatedly.