Withered8
Withered8
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4120214#Comment_4120214
I love plaing as First, but my most favourite killer visually and by lore is Krasue who's the true theme of monster hunter that just got designed to be not very interactive on both sides.
Who do you like playing against the most
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@Elan said:
Design-wise Krasue, gameplay-wise First.
Gameplay wise first…. Is this just to play or also to play against?
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@Hopi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119086#Comment_4119086
Hang on what you said about spirit is exactly correct. You even said that these reasons pissed off survivors and caused them to dc.
I said that it's probable yes, not that they actually did it. I wasn't there at the time to potentially witness it.
So why can't you apply this logic to the judgement and other similar modern versions of old spirit?
Because no-phasing-sound-spirit had practically no counterplay if she started phasing far away from you, whereas Judgment has plenty of counterplay. And a Judgment with aura also has counterplay via various perks. Survivors just have to learn and utilize it. I myself now have Boon: Shadowstep in my build by default, in case it's needed. I don't always deploy it. But it's better to have it and not need it instead of the other way around.
It's simply not true that how simple a killers power is determines how much people enjoy playing against that killer.
And I never stated that as a fact. I theorized as to why players prefer facing certain killers compared to others, based on my own knowledge and experiences. Additionally, you asked me about my opinion about why some killers are hated compared to others. An opinion is personal and subjective and is therefore neither right nor wrong. But if you're now stating it as a fact, then I'm really interested to learn from you what information that fact is based on.
Ghoul's power is simple to understand do many survivor players enjoy playing against him?
No clue, because I can't speak on behalf of all survivors. Personally I dislike the 'hit-scan' element of his power, because it feels like a cheap way to get survivors injured. But even that can be countered to some degree.
The first's power is incredibly easy to understand. Shoot a long range circular projectile that damages after survivors are hit twice.
Indeed. And as I stated earlier: "Personally, I don't mind either", referring to creating distance and moving unpredictably, because that is indeed all there is to it. But I can't speak for all survivors, so I can't tell you if it's easy for them as well.
Blight's power is definitely NOT easy to understand from the survivor's side at all. He has different cooldowns depending on how much he's rushed, his addons change his power in difficult to understand ways, he has alot of techs that killers can use which take knowledge and skill for both sides to understand, and he recently got nerfed in a way that makes him MORE complicated to play against, as now he loses 2 rushes when he breaks a pallet so you've got an additional cooldown modifier to keep track of.
To me, the essence of Blight's power is easy to understand, as in: He rushes, bounces on objects to rush again and he has limited charges to do so. Once you know this as a survivor you can start working on your counterplay. Learning to counter specific techs can be a next step, but the basics are easy to understand.
Compare that for example with the Onryo. She has 2 states: Manifested and De-manifested. Depending on what state she's in she can or cannot do certain things. Survivors can get condemned stacks if near an active TV when she teleports. They have to retrieve tapes from active TV's and carry those across the map to another TV to reduce condemned stacks. If you're hooked with condemned stacks, a maximum of 3 of those become permanent. Once condemned, becoming downed means game over, regardless of hook states.
All of that is base-kit. Therefore, all of it is a factor when facing the Onryo, regardless of the skill level of the player controlling her.
Would you also say that the counterplay to blight, nurse and billy is simple to understand?
Yes. But that's how I personally look at it. I cannot speak for every survivor out there about what they find and don't find easy.
Is nurse's counterplay really that simple for your average player? Of course not it's way harder than most killers.
Again, I cannot speak on behalf of other survivors. And neither can you.
Did you know that in 2v8s if a killer dc's the killer gets replaced with a bot? Isn't that interesting? Why doesn't that happen in 1v4?
Because BHVR stated that they're still working on that. They did so less than 2 months ago when it was asked during the Reddit AMA when killer bots would become available in custom matches:
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1vh6n8y/comment/p29u0tm/So if they're not yet ready for custom, then they're certainly not yet ready for 1v4.
Okay but killers also can't chase survivors forever, eventually the gens will pop and they'll escape. They can't hook people forever as eventually they'll escape, so what's your point?
Survivors can indeed pop gens and escape, but only if they work together as a team, instead of 4 individual players who only care about themselves. If that happens, as a killer you simply go for the weakest link, taking them out first, thereby impairing the other survivor's ability to pop gens and escape. The less survivors there are, the harder it becomes for them to complete their objectives.
Also, what do you mean with "They can't hook people forever"? Killers don't have to: Only 12 times or less. And the more time the killer has, the easier it becomes.
Survivors have resources yes but so do killers, generators and exit gates are their resources, and the many perks they have.
I don't see your point here. I was explaining that most resources that survivors have are finite and therefore they cannot keep a killer occupied forever.
Basing the claim that good survivors are leaving and switching to killer based on a few things, universal killer que times increasing, good survivor content creators and famous players (ie comp players) leaving, and anecdotal experience of running into less good players in pub matches.
I see. I'm guessing that it's a regional thing then. I'm playing in Central Europe and I don't see what you're seeing over here.
So the gameplay element of survivor you enjoy is stealthing? Nothing else?
I indeed enjoy stealth (I played a lot of Splinter Cell during my youth). And BHVR themselves stated that it's part of the game, so I'm all for it. But I also enjoy long chases and mind games. Simply put: If I can contribute to the team in a way that either allows me to complete objectives, or helps the team complete objectives, I'm happy.
Does this mean you hate playing against the doctor, and the plague, and any aura perks? What about full aura judgement hm?
No, I don't hate that. Unlike some survivor players, I accept the fact that I can be put face to face with any of the available killers, their playstyles and their perks once I've hit the "Play" button. So this includes Doctor and Plague as well.
And as for Judgment or any other killer with a full aura build: I have recently added Boon: Shadowstep to my build by default and before that I already had We See You in my build, which allows me to detect what aura perks and add-ons a killer has. And I can actually use that against them in some cases, because they don't know that I know, meaning that they can almost never surprise me with a ranged attack.
My current default build is We See You, Boon: Shadowstep, Iron Will, Dead Hard.
And to your next post, did you actually not enjoy playing killer, or were you just new and not good yet?
The latter: New and inexperienced/not good.
You didn't tell me specific gameplay elements that turned you off from killer initially, just that you were learning and new. If your biggest complaint as killer is a bunch of people typing in endgame chat, then that's very indicative of the role's current state compared to survivor.
If I play an available killer in a certain way, with any four of all available perks, and the survivors in the opposing team cannot or will not deal with that, then that's their problem. I don't break any official rules by doing so, but still the survivors sometimes feel the need to voice their disdain in end-game chat about how I played.
Which is exactly the reason why I made my initial post in the first place.
No phase sound spirit had counter play with perks like iron will, and you could get lucky and guess what she would do and survive a phase. That doesn't explain why people hated her and why she was toxic for the game. You're saying that it's fine that a new killer forces survivors to run certain perks, well I'm afraid to tell you if every killer did that you'd need over FOURTY perks. That is not healthy game design at all. You're pretty close to admitting there's no counter play to aura judgement unless you have an anti aura perk, nud duh.
Yeah and I'm telling you why your opinion is wrong and based on things that aren't true in regards to what people enjoy playing against. Simplicity of the power is an incredibly small factor compared to counterplay, fun, interactivity, and skill of the power etc.
You don't like how ghoul has a cheap way of injuring survivors, well judgement has a cheap way of injuring AND downing survivors lmao. Even if you won't accept that, do you thus dislike legion and plague for their injury methods? Or insta down killers as they treat you as you're constantly injured?
"creating distance and moving unpredictable against the first." Yeah so all you can do against that killer is hold W and do stupid movement to hope that they miss or suck. We all know that's what the vecna 2 experience is. There's no point trying to sugar coat it.
Sure onryo has some weird gimmicks to her power but at the end of the day it involves pretty standard chases with a stealth killer + removing tapes from tv's on occasion. This doesn't mean blights power is not very advanced and complicated to understand specifically "at a high level" from the survivors perspective. I'm not talking about your average pub blight who barely knows what they are doing.
The resources that killer has are also finite, time is a finite resource, gens are a finite resource, 3 gens are a finite resource. Killer is no different to survivor in this way.
Are you just as happy to see a doctor or plague in your games as any other killer then? You're trying to act as if you literally don't care what killer you play against which I highly doubt is true. Just like any video game, some characters are clearly more enjoyable to you than others and there's nothing wrong with admitting that.
Okay maybe it's different in central Europe but I'm talking about the playerbase at the top of the game, not your average playerbase. You might not notice a difference in your average games if you hardly came across or knew about the best players anyway, but I'm pretty sure that some EU comp players are leaving, and many EU creators are constantly complaining about the game's state currently: Hens, Otzdarva etc.
The problem with this discussion is everytime I make a point to you that you can't rebut you just go "well in my experience that's how it works/ that's what I think." How are we meant to get anywhere or agree upon principles or game design. I get that you have your own opinions but you gotta back up those opinions with some logic.
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@HexFelix said:
Killers having a chance against swfs doesn’t mean the killer is broken. Rivercivers latest video also shows why Judgment (and a couple of other killers) are way to babified. He has good points on why these killers suck again decent teams most of the time and why the current design of killers suck.
What makes a killer broken then? Seemingly nothing according to you.
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So your solution to all the problems the game has is to create more problems?
Don't fix solo q, just make it less fun to play with your friends.
Remove all fun elements from the game and complicate it even more unnecessarily than it already has been.
2nd idea is not bad, the rest cause the above issues however.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119084#Comment_4119084
Uh, you think Blight has been gutted? Certainly Blight takes skill to be good at, but he's also pretty universally recognized as one of the top 5 strongest killers in the game, usually still being ranked number 2 behind Nurse despite his nerfs. 4.4m/s and 2 tokens of cooldown on pallet breaks does make a difference, but his power (especially with double speed) is still incredibly oppressive and that has not changed at all. 2 tokens lost at a pallet break means it delays his rush by 4s, which isn't really than much when you consider he'll catch up to you in no time at all. That tier of killer does need nerfs, just like weaker killers need buffs.
Compared to his former self he is, he's nowhere near as strong as he used to be.
He's not number 2 anymore barely number 3, out of the time 6 ish killers in the game he's by far the most map dependent as of right now since the changes.
Sure his power is still a very powerful and opressive chase tool. But it's no where near the chase strength of many other killers these days, and the killer takes far more skill to pull off than any other killer who's just as powerful in chase.
Okay so if we are nerfing killers based on the tier of strength, who else needs a nerf? Would you agree that the First and Vecna 2 need nerfs? They are just as strong if not stronger than blight.
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@esoteric0108 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119084#Comment_4119084
If you think blight is gutted you need a HARD reality check, respectfully.
Compared to his former self he is. He's probably number 4 in the game right now maybe still number 3. But the excessive hate that blight gets compared to other killers is my problem. There are plenty of other killers who need nerfs before him. Remember that SOMEONE has to be the best killer in the game, and who do you want that someone to be?
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@Hopi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118558#Comment_4118558
Your logic for dcing doesn't make sense though.
Which part exactly?
Old skull merchant, vecna 2 and judgement have much higher dc rates than killers like nurse blight billy etc. Old spirit as well. Knight. Clearly it doesn't just seem to be correlated to how hard they are to play against or how good they are directly.
I don't have exact data about DC'rates and as far as I know there is no publicly available data on that either, but I can theorize per killer as to why they would:
Old Skull Merchant could utilize a playstyle that was not engaging for either side, and would ultimately make the killer win due to server-timeout, not skill. Something I'm convinced BHVR did not foresee. Which is why the 8-damage-events-limit was introduced, alongside the changes to some of her add-ons.
The First is, according to the most recent data from Nightlight, the 21st most picked killer, with a pick rate of only 1,67%. That puts him below the current average, which is 2,27%. So survivors don't get to see him that often, meaning not enough practice against them. Furthermore, dodging his power involves creating as much distance as possible, and if that fails perform a lot of unpredictable movement. Personally, I don't mind either, but maybe players find it hard to move unpredictably. Maybe they are used to certain pathing, which can be effective for most killers. Just not this one. My best guess would be that this is somehow infuriating to players and they therefore DC.
Judgment is brand new and, compared to other killer powers, very unconventional. And that is because we as a community voted for that. This also means that there is a lot to learn about the killer. About what she can and cannot do and how to counter her. Every time a new killer is released survivors are going to struggle at first. And in that single regard, all killers are the exact same.
If with Old spirit you're referring to Spirit without the phasing sound, then I totally get it. Countering killers should not be easy, but it should also not be impossible. And although I didn't play against old Spirit, I can totally understand how old spirit would be considered overpowered, because of little to none counterplay. And that probably pissed some survivors off, causing them to DC.
Knight has a power that is unique, as in that it can be used in a sort of pincer attack, making it seem like there's 2 killers against one survivor. And because guards can chase a survivor while the killer can also chase another survivor, one killer can basically chase 2 completely separate survivors at once. There are of course ways to counter this, but with a pick rate of only 1,63% they're not that common, meaning that survivors don't get that much practice against them.
Ultimately, the less you know about a killer, the harder it becomes to counter them. Which I guess can be infuriating to survivors.
As for Nurse, Blight and Billy: They all have a very easy to understand power, meaning that learning to counter those powers is also relatively easy.
Why do you think people have some of these killers but don't hate nurse blight billy, which until recently were the 3 strongest killers?
One word actually: Understanding. When killers have simple powers it makes their powers easy to understand and therefore easy to counter. The more complex a killer's power, the more there is to understand about them and learn about them, before you can properly counter them.
Yeah exactly so you're basically inferring that its worse if a survivor dc's than a killer dc's which is my point.
Not sure if I agree with that. However, I can agree that when a survivor DC's, then that's bad for the other survivors. Which is why they shouldn't do it. Which is why I think the DC-penalty should be increased. DC'ing should never be normalized, regardless of who does it. It should be the exception, rather than the rule.
Okay what does that actually mean in practise when you say killer is unstoppable? That nothing survivors do should matter?
Oh, it certainly matters what survivors do. But not if the match takes too long. That's why survivors should fix generators as fast as possible and that's why the killer should delay that as much as possible.
If during a trial the killer would search for and chase the survivors, and the survivors would NOT do any gens in the meantime, all 4 survivors will eventually be sacrificed or killed. Sure, you can drop pallets, extend chases by clever pathing, etc.. But resources and hook stages are limited. The killer can easily perform 12 hook actions within an hour, making them the winner of the match.
What do you mean by killers can stop survivors but survivors can't stop killers? Survivors can have chases with killers? They can stun them with pallets (well most of them), loop them, play altruistically, use perks etc. Like what you are saying doesn't translate into any game design or balancing aspects, it doesn't mean anything.
Survivors can indeed be chased by killers, stun them, loop them, but they can't do that forever. They cannot permanently prevent killers from chasing them. The killer can keep chasing, thereby gaining bloodlust and becoming faster, and pallets will eventually run out, giving survivors less and less options as the match progresses.
Yes they are doing a good job at getting new players still, but there's a shrinking pool of long time survivor mains and good survivor players, reducing the amount of players I can actually play against in my MMR. They've all switched to killer, left the game or just play on rare occasions.
On what information are you basing this?
You sound like you play a bit of survivor so let me ask you, what makes survivor fun for you? Why do you play it? What's better about the role than killer that attracts you?
I actually play quite a lot of survivor. As of this comment, my hours, according to my personal stats from BHVR, are 1.659 hours survivor and 364 hours killer. Percentage-wise that's 82.01% survivor and 17.99% killer.
One of the reasons I play Survivor a lot is that I like to play with friends as much as I can. Beforehand, we agree on a playstyle and then simply play like that. We mostly prioritize getting at least one survivor out, but more if possible. Not sweaty. Just efficient.
Also, when playing solo-queue I really like the stealthy playstyle: Being as efficient as I possibly can, while moving unobserved over the map, is what I truly enjoy. I feel good about every time I get to evade the killer. The closer they get, the bigger the rush.
There was this one time against an Oni on Temple of Purgation where I was able to hide from them almost the entire match, but still did gens, unhooks and heals. Afterwards the killer called me a coward because they thought I was hiding the whole match: Considering my actual actions during the match, it was one of the greatest compliments I've ever had from a killer.
Hang on what you said about spirit is exactly correct. You even said that these reasons pissed off survivors and caused them to dc. So why can't you apply this logic to the judgement and other similar modern versions of old spirit?
It's simply not true that how simple a killers power is determines how much people enjoy playing against that killer. Ghoul's power is simple to understand do many survivor players enjoy playing against him? The first's power is incredibly easy to understand. Shoot a long range circular projectile that damages after survivors are hit twice. Blight's power is definitely NOT easy to understand from the survivor's side at all. He has different cooldowns depending on how much he's rushed, his addons change his power in difficult to understand ways, he has alot of techs that killers can use which take knowledge and skill for both sides to understand, and he recently got nerfed in a way that makes him MORE complicated to play against, as now he loses 2 rushes when he breaks a pallet so you've got an additional cooldown modifier to keep track of. Would you also say that the counterplay to blight, nurse and billy is simple to understand? Is nurse's counterplay really that simple for your average player? Of course not it's way harder than most killers.
Did you know that in 2v8s if a killer dc's the killer gets replaced with a bot? Isn't that interesting? Why doesn't that happen in 1v4?
Okay but killers also can't chase survivors forever, eventually the gens will pop and they'll escape. They can't hook people forever as eventually they'll escape, so what's your point? Survivors have resources yes but so do killers, generators and exit gates are their resources, and the many perks they have.
Basing the claim that good survivors are leaving and switching to killer based on a few things, universal killer que times increasing, good survivor content creators and famous players (ie comp players) leaving, and anecdotal experience of running into less good players in pub matches.
So the gameplay element of survivor you enjoy is stealthing? Nothing else? Does this mean you hate playing against the doctor, and the plague, and any aura perks? What about full aura judgement hm?
And to your next post, did you actually not enjoy playing killer, or were you just new and not good yet? You didn't tell me specific gameplay elements that turned you off from killer initially, just that you were learning and new. If your biggest complaint as killer is a bunch of people typing in endgame chat, then that's very indicative of the role's current state compared to survivor.
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@esoteric0108 said:
billy use to have an uncommon and a rare addon that both increased speed but eventually one was reworked and the other made iridescent.
Can blight get the same change? double speed just makes all 50/50s a 70/30 in blights favour and just removes half the skill from playing him. its wayyy more common than it should be to get hit in situations where you wouldnt have if that addon combo didnt exist. its already been nerfed in the past but its still too strong. blight should only have 1 speed addon, its not like he would be weak without 2
So your argument is we need more 50/50s, and that we should nerf one of the most skilled killers in the game who's already been pretty gutted?
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@Ivantxugp_ said:
So why do I have to deal with a killer that's seeing my aura at all times, can attack from anywhere on the map, has been buffed to make aiming even easier and on top of that, denies the use of a lot of perks cause of his non hook power???
Really bhvr devs don't play their game.
Nope your not allowed to complain about anything as survivor you just need to shut up and take it! Oh btw we're gonna buff this killer just to rub it in your face as well!
Sorry but the only acceptable way to balance this killer right now is give it the skull merchant treatment until they can rework it entirely.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115133#Comment_4115133
I know this is a very late reply, but I don't care.
And no, I doubt it's only killer mains within the dbd forums that enjoy going against this killer. I have seen many posts on reddit for example that have said they enjoy going against judgment.
I have come to the conclusion that Judgment is fair the same way you have come to the conclusion she isn't, through experience with the game and looking at the numbers of the power and everything surrounding the power. So I am still convinced that Judgment indeed has counterplay, even when she is in zealous.
But if you have demonstrations of what you are talking about, I'd gladly watch them.
One thing is for sure though, the reason people don't want to go in a custom match is because they don't want to put up with setting something like that up and waste their time. It has nothing to do with having the balls or not lmao. Not to mention you are coming off as a bit hostile towards people that don't agree with you, so who would really want to get in contact with you to set up custom matches?
And as I said, every time I would manage to dodge your beam, you would most likely just blame it on missing with the beam.
Your last paragraph holds some truth. Dodging the beam is also somewhat luck dependent, as it does often come down to 50/50s, at least when Judgment is in zealous. But there sure as hell still is a difference between a 5 hour survivor and a 5000 hour survivor going against the Judgment. Also, saying that the beam is a 50/50 contradicts the argument that Judgment has no counterplay, because 50/50s mean survivors have a 50% chance at counterplaying the beam. Whether it's luck based or not is irelevant to the question whether Judgment has counterplay or not.
Every single popular survivor main and even the sensible killer mains put this killer in the top 3, many as the top killer in dbd right now. These people also complain about the fact that this killer is incredibly unfun and removes so much skill from the game. Quite clearly there are some problems with this killer and how he's being perceived
I'm happy to show demonstrations as to why this is as soon as they fix the bug he's got rn.
I can tell you exactly why it's luck dependent but also has no counterplay. At the very BEST if the judgement is bad or taking bad and greedy shots, there's an element of 50/50s to it. Now this is extremely problematic in itself because 50/50s remove skill from the game, create rng fests and the fact that this killers cooldown is like 5 or 6 seconds with minimal penalty or slowdown means he can constantly spam it on you like vecna 2. So EVEN if it was only a 50/50 that's a 50/50 every 6 seconds, your odds of lasting any decent length in chase alone are fked, let alone trying to show skill expression in a chase. Whether it's luck based most certainly is relevant to whether judgement has counter play, old deathslinger and old spirit were changed for this very exact reason.
But if the judgement is good enough, they can aim and time the beam ontop of your head to make it practically undodgable 90% of the time, removing the luck element from the killer's side of the equation most of the time. At this point you pretty much just go down in 12 seconds every time except for when he whiff's the ability. You can say that it's a survivor "dodging it" but that’s just not true when this killers power is to literally draw lines anywhere on the map that damage survivors, go through walls and travel at bullet speed.
If that were true that people just don't wanna waste their time in a custom, how come everyone on these forums who think judgement is broken are willing to go custom, i've seen plenty of players advocating for his removal or massive nerfs offer to custom. Not ONE person who thinks hes balanced, or fun or fair in anyway.
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@Hopi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117758#Comment_4117758
But once again bots unfairly hostage the other 3 survivors in the game, because there's no way to ######### or leave games anymore without dcing. Doesn't matter if you are 0.05% more likely to escape with a bot on your team than an old dc, at those odds it's such a waste of time.
I can't speak for other survivor players, and since you only play with good players when playing survivor, I'm guessing you don't get to experience DC'ing survivors yourself. So what is it then that makes you think survivors are being held hostage by a bot whenever there is one? I certainly don't feel that way. So I simply keep playing. As I did recently.
As a killer, i get hella bored having to play against bots because it's just stupid, and most killer players do. Old dc's at least end the game quicker so your not stuck in a dead and pointless game.
I'm sorry that you see it that way. The only thing I can suggest is that you find a way to make it fun for yourself if there's a bot in the game. For example, going after the other survivors first and letting the bot escape so that the bot's score is higher than the human player's score, which would kind of humiliate the human players I guess. I personally don't want to play like that, but if that makes it fun for you, I'd say go for it.
Okay then if you're not willing to accept my definition as to why dcing is clearly a problem lets follow your train of thought. You said "unfortunately it happens alot" in terms of dcing and noted that it happens even more against the judgement.
I said that it happens a lot, but not that it happened specifically while playing Judgment.
Why do you think this is? Why does judgement but also the game have greater dc rates even with dc penalties and everything now?
I don't have sufficient data to tell if Judgment does indeed have a higher survivor DC rate. But the reason it happens in general is because, and again this is my personal experience over the last 4 years, survivor-players tend to give up when things get too difficult.
During matches, when they have to confront unexpected situations (e.g. the other survivors not performing to their expectations, the killer using a certain playstyle or bringing certain perks of even playing against a certain killer), they either cannot or will not adapt. They had a certain expectation about how the match was going to go and once that was no longer the case, they'd simply quit. Because it's not what they wanted. But still, they felt entitled to that. They felt entitled to a certain result and once they didn't get it, they DC'd, not giving the rest of the team a second thought.
"Survivors are allowed certain entitlements compared to others", uh who are the others? They literally get LESS entitlements than killer because as you said a killer dcing doesn't matter whereas a survivor dcing does.
First of all, you're mis-quoting me: I did not say it like that.
Second: the part of my comment that you're referencing, does not talk about how survivors actually have certain entitlements (because they don't), but they only think that they have them. Maybe because someone told them, or they convinced themselves. And when I said "That they have certain entitlements, compared to others", I was referring to other survivor players, because thankfully not all survivor players feel like they are entitled to certain things.
And third: I'm pretty sure that I did not say that "a killer dcing doesn't matter" (I checked all my previous comments and couldn't find it at least). I said that the game 'behaves differently' (so to speak) when a killer DC's vs when a survivor DC's: Because when the killer DC's the entire team opposing the survivors is gone, so you have no other choice but to end the match (until killer bots become a thing of course). Which is not the case if it were a survivor that DC's because then the team opposing the killer is still there, albeit only 75% human. And that's because of the asymmetrical nature of the game.
And on a side note: Regardless of role, I don't like either side DC'ing before the match is over, even though it would ever so slightly benefit me as a survivor if the killer were the one to DC (some 'free' bloodpoints).
Okay well what do you actually mean by "killer is the power role". What does this statement actually mean in practise other than some posturing to justify poor game design and balancing choices?
The killer-role is unstoppable. As a survivor you can delay the killer by hiding from them, using clever pathing during chase, team-strategies, obstacles, certain items and certain perks. But you cannot actually stop them. If a killer and a survivor would go head to head, if given enough time, the survivor would ultimately always lose.
The killer can injure, down, hook and ultimately kill/sacrifice the survivor. Vice versa is not possible: The survivor cannot kill the killer. They can't even stop the killer.
In fact, the only thing in a trial that can actually stop the killer, is the Entity blocking the exit areas when the killer tries to walk towards the campfire in the distance. Therefore, it is the only permanently safe space for the survivors to get to, because the killer cannot follow. So that is where they ultimately have to go. And they can get there by working as fast as possible on gens, while simultaneously delaying the killer for as long as possible.
The survivors cannot stop the killer. They can merely delay. And because the killer can actually stop the survivors, that makes them the power role.
Well i'm literally a killer main so it doesn't affect me if survivor is the most unfun role anyway cause I'll only play it with good players. I'm trying to make sure that there's still a functional survivor playerbase which I'm able to play against in the future, and right now it looks like that won't be the case.
When you say "it looks like that won't be the case", what is that based on exactly? The playerbase (on Steam at least) is slightly growing, so there's still an influx of new players.
Your logic for dcing doesn't make sense though. Old skull merchant, vecna 2 and judgement have much higher dc rates than killers like nurse blight billy etc. Old spirit as well. Knight. Clearly it doesn't just seem to be correlated to how hard they are to play against or how good they are directly. Why do you think people have some of these killers but don't hate nurse blight billy, which until recently were the 3 strongest killers?
Yeah exactly so you're basically inferring that its worse if a survivor dc's than a killer dc's which is my point.
Okay what does that actually mean in practise when you say killer is unstoppable? That nothing survivors do should matter? What do you mean by killers can stop survivors but survivors can't stop killers? Survivors can have chases with killers? They can stun them with pallets (well most of them), loop them, play altruistically, use perks etc. Like what you are saying doesn't translate into any game design or balancing aspects, it doesn't mean anything.
Yes they are doing a good job at getting new players still, but there's a shrinking pool of long time survivor mains and good survivor players, reducing the amount of players I can actually play against in my MMR. They've all switched to killer, left the game or just play on rare occasions.
You sound like you play a bit of survivor so let me ask you, what makes survivor fun for you? Why do you play it? What's better about the role than killer that attracts you?
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@Hopi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117379#Comment_4117379
It's possible for me to become the US president. Does that make it feasible, realistic or even a decent chance? No.
Since you're using the US president as an example, I'm guessing you're American. And if you are, then yes, it can be feasible and realistic, if you work for it. Still not a guarantee though.
Doesn't matter that you can "technically" win with a bot, you can also "technically" win with an old dc no?
Yes, absolutely. But the chances of doing so are slimmer without a bot, compared to with a bot. I actually got a 4-man out today, with one survivor being a bot.
You say it includes the killer too, but once again it also includes THREE OTHER SURVIVORS. Do you think it's healthy to hostage 3 players just to satisfy 1 other player? It's neither the survivors or killer's fault yet one of these groups is punished and the other isn't. Regardless however, bots are also boring asf to play against as killer because you know it's a free win and there's no challenge.
I agree that there is no perfect solution here. The current solution, replacing DC'ing survivors with bots, is simply the best one there is for now. And with killer queues being what they are right now, ending the match prematurely hits the killer harder than the survivors. Survivor queue-times (in Central Europe at least) are anywhere between 6 en 14 seconds on average, whereas killer queue-times on average are at least several minutes. This means that Survivors could indeed jump back into the action rather quickly if the previous match were to end prematurely. But unfortunately the same cannot be said for killer players.
"Fun is not BHVR's responsibilty" uhhh yea it quite literally is if they want anyone to play their game. Ppl don't play dbd for the balance, they play it for the fun. You are asking for the game to die if you think this.
The game has to be interesting and replayable, so that players keep coming back for more. And if there is something for players to work towards, to aspire to, then that can make it fun for them, or at least give them a reason to keep playing, if that is in fact something that they want as a player. Otherwise it's probably not the right game for them.
Using myself as an example: Ever since Judgment came out, I made it my mission to get her to P100. It will take a lot of time and effort and probably a lot of frustrating moments too, but I believe it's worth all that. And that's what makes it fun for me. Playing with friends also makes it fun. For me at least.
I don't find the game boring. STATISTICALLY more survivor players find the game boring and unfun and unfair.
Can you share those statistics? Or provide the source?
Why else would you write a whole post complaining about DCing survivors?? You clearly recognise that survivor retention is a problem. What causes this problem? The fun factor. It's literally that simple. Why do you play video games in the first place? Why do you play some games and not others???
No, that is simply not true: If you go back and read the actual post from September 8th, you'll see that I never complained about DC'ing survivors. I was writing about my experiences with survivors in post-game chat while playing Judgment. I wrote about how they were salty, how they were berating me after matches and why they did that. None of them DC'd. And even if they did, I would certainly not complain about that, because the act of survivor's DC'ing increases the odds of me winning as killer.
This is mega gaslighting.
I don't think I did. But if you perceived it that way, I'm sorry for that. It was certainly not my intent.
I'm not asking to change the game to something new for the sake of it because I don't personally like it. I'm asking that the game be changed to what it USED to be when survivor retention used to be significantly higher. It's not new, it's literally just how it used to be before YOU guys tried to change the game into something new that it is now.
Who are you referring to when you say "YOU guys"? What group am I a part of according to you? Because the only one who changed the game to what it is now is BHVR. Sure, they were undoubtedly influenced by player feedback to get where the game is now, but that's also what feedback is for.
If the game's working fine, why are you writing a post about how dcing is out of control and needs to be dealt with and telling people how to play the game etc, whilst also acknowledgeable que times are through the roof for killer?
First of all, as I stated earlier in this comment, I did not write a post about how DC'ing is out of control. Read the original post from September 8th.
Second, In my subsequent comments that followed, while replying to comments from others, I stated that, unless there's a real-life emergency, you're not supposed to DC for any reason once you've committed to the match, and that the DC penalty exists to discourage behavior like that. Even there I never said that it was 'out of control'. It's simply a real shame when it happens. And from what I can tell from personal experience, it unfortunately happens a lot.
And third: My primary grievances are with the fact that, in my personal experience, survivor players seem to have the idea that, because they are not having fun or the match doesn't go their way, they are allowed certain behaviors. That they have certain entitlements, compared to others. DC'ing before the match is over is one of them. And whilst playing Judgment certain behaviors became even more apparent to me, like complaining about my playstyle, perks, etc.. So all I intended to do was to make it clear that that's not the case. No one at BHVR gave those entitlements to players.
The only thing that anyone who plays Dead by Daylight is actually entitled to, and again thanks to NordSahne for pointing that out, is a functional game, because that's what we paid for.
"Killer is the power role", okay you've been brainwashed by tru3ta1ent haven’t you. Spoken like a tru3 fan.
Actually, no. That's just the way it is. When a survivor and a killer go head-to-head, the killer will eventually always win from a survivor.
Was that remark supposed to be demeaning? Let's keep it civilized please.You're right the game is changing and that's the PROBLEM. NOT the balance changes necessarily but the fundamental game style and mechanics change which is destroying it.
According to whom? The ever increasing player base?
Otz's video shows why not to miss the game from a BALANCING perspective. Once again I'm not arguing from a balancing perspective, I'm arguing from a game health, enjoyment and longevity perspective. You have to put balance aside in this conversation because once again I'm trying to tell you that this argument is not about balance, it's fundamentally about how the game is played. The problem isn't that killer is more powerful than survivor compared to past times, it's that survivor is more uninteractive, unfun and teambased than ever.
I'm sorry that you feel that way. And I wish you could have more fun playing. I know I have fun playing.
And if you're systematically not having fun, just stop playing. No one is forcing you. No one is demanding that you play. The world doesn't end if you don't play.
If you're not having fun, just stop.
Stop and play something else.
But once again bots unfairly hostage the other 3 survivors in the game, because there's no way to ######### or leave games anymore without dcing. Doesn't matter if you are 0.05% more likely to escape with a bot on your team than an old dc, at those odds it's such a waste of time. As a killer, i get hella bored having to play against bots because it's just stupid, and most killer players do. Old dc's at least end the game quicker so your not stuck in a dead and pointless game.
Okay then if you're not willing to accept my definition as to why dcing is clearly a problem lets follow your train of thought. You said "unfortunately it happens alot" in terms of dcing and noted that it happens even more against the judgement. Why do you think this is? Why does judgement but also the game have greater dc rates even with dc penalties and everything now?
"Survivors are allowed certain entitlements compared to others", uh who are the others? They literally get LESS entitlements than killer because as you said a killer dcing doesn't matter whereas a survivor dcing does.
Okay well what do you actually mean by "killer is the power role". What does this statement actually mean in practise other than some posturing to justify poor game design and balancing choices?
Well i'm literally a killer main so it doesn't affect me if survivor is the most unfun role anyway cause I'll only play it with good players. I'm trying to make sure that there's still a functional survivor playerbase which I'm able to play against in the future, and right now it looks like that won't be the case.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117397#Comment_4117397
I fundamentally disagree with a lot of what you said here. Honestly every change to both Nurse and Blight have been slaps on the wrist, especially considering they have not budged from the top 2 spots for their entire lifespans.
The gap between Nurse and Blight is very small at this point, however even the gap between Nurse and a killer like Dracula, who usually is considered somewhere around the 5th or 6th strongest killer in the game, is still way too big. And that's Dracula. Ignoring the D and C tier killers that obviously need buffs, even compared to B tier or A tier killer Nurse is monumentally stronger. Do you really think Springtrap isn't that far off from Nurse?
Some of the new releases are too strong or their kits are too bloated, yes. I still don't like Jason and think there is way too much in his kit and he invalidates several killers and power creeps half the roster, and like I said I agree that I think Judgment is too strong. However, again, I never said I'm arguing that Judgment should not be nerfed. All I said was whether Judgment needs a nerf or not, Nurse does as well.
I also disagree with the notion that Nurse is immensely harder to play than Judgment. While I have not played a bunch of the newly buffed Judgment, I was able to pick up Nurse within a couple hours of match time and I think I'm a pretty decent Nurse. She is not hard. The new Judgment is not hard to medium range shots on, especially with aura reading, but even with the .8s now making it infinitely easier to simply react to a survivor's movements in chase, I still think there is probably a bit more skill involved with Judgment at close range, at the very least out of Zealous
They have not changed in their entire life span? First of all that would be a healthy thing for the game if it were true, because it's much better to have nurse and blight at the top than something like judgement and vecna 2. But that's not even true, because spirit, billy, and now judgement have all had periods where they are better.
Blight is probably not even a top 3 killer now (maybe just it's hard to tell) at the top level and people are starting to pick up on this. His latest nerfs make him vulnerable to being pallet chained and stuck in long chases.
Springtrap is far off nurse sure, but spring trap is an AVERAGE killer, and nurse is the second best. The gap between B and S tier killers is nothing like it used to be and way closer. Sure nurse is stronger than dracula but it's not like they are worlds apart. At the end of the day SOMEONE has to be stronger, and you gotta pick your poison. The top 5-10 killers are all honestly alot closer than you might think, the top 5 is infact rather debatable these days, indicating the gap is massively shrinking.
You might think that in your average public match nurse isn't that hard to play sure, she's not incredibly hard, but at a very high level there's so much more that goes into playing nurse than could ever go into judgement. You have to constantly make little movements, key inputs and decisions which can be game changing, and whilst it doesn't look as flashy as judgement, it takes alot more precision and skill to pull off against the best teams. Blight is even more so as that killer is EXTREMELY unforgiving and much more difficult to pull off.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117389#Comment_4117389
I made a separate post after this one on a few different ways to change the Nurse, and the simplest one was to simply increase her recharge rate of her second blink from 3s to 5s to limit how much she is able to go for the easy adjustment blinks that guarantee a hit even when the first blink is a bit sloppy. If you make it a blanket cooldown time, Nurse already doesn't have that fast of long map traversal, most of her distance comes from her first blink, so I think having her first blink be on a bigger cooldown might actually make her traverse the map even slower than a 4.6 killer.
She already has slower longitudinal map traverse than a 115 killer.
More importantly, this change would mean that nurse would never second blink ever unless it was 100% guaranteed, meaning she would just perma zone you every chase.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117387#Comment_4117387
Chill man, I never said Nurse hasn't been nerfed. It's just a fact that her nerfs have never put her lower than number 1 and despite any nerfs, most of which have just been addon nerfs, she is too powerful. Judgment is an extremely controversial killer right now because she has a learning curve, some people are experiencing terrible Judgment players just going for adept and some are experiencing the people who have no-lifed her for weeks. It doesn't help that the MMR update just came out and makes it difficult to tell for some people if it's that Judgment is OP or if their teammates are just trash because of the MMR reset.
I agree with you that I think she is too powerful, that she could even be stronger than Nurse. Posts have been made on this. But does that mean we can never talk about Nurse? Nurse being number 1 never stopped people from talking about how Blight should be nerfed.
Well both nurse and blight have been nerfed pretty similar amounts of times in recent years, the difference is nurse nerfs were a slap on the wrist compared to blight nerfs which massively hurt him.
The gap between nurse and other killers is getting real close now that there's just no point nerfing her when bhvr is starting to release killers that match or even exceed her powerlevel. Clearly they are setting the precedent that new killers and reworks to come will be stronger or equal in power to nurse, so if we are concerned about nurse's power level we should be far more concerned about all the new killers which are about to come.
If the argument for nerfing nurse and not judgement is that judgement has a skill curve, nurse has a thousand times greater of a skill curve than her. Judgement is brainless compared to nurse, it's simply that judgement has only just been released, whereas nurse has been in the game for 10 years.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117381#Comment_4117381
Nurse is a killer everyone has been wanting nerfed for years, essentially since her creation, so of course we want Nurse nerfed. She had been number 1 for far too long and needs an actual impactful change.
Judgment is brand new, and as I said before, probably because of how much better a good Judgment is versus a bad or mediocre one, the community hasn't been able to reach a solid consensus and some people still think she's like B tier.
Despite that, if you haven't seen people calling for Judgment nerfs you probably just missed them because there are plenty. This post is just bigger than most of them because it's something people agree on more.
Nurse has already been nerfed COUNTLESS times. Don't act as if she's never been touched she's been changed CONSTANTLY.
It's WORSE that a brand new killer is considered S tier than one that's been out from released and balanced accordingly. SOMEONE has to be at the top, and I would rather that be nurse than most other killers in this game. Everytime there's a killer who's better than nurse it's a HUGE indicator that something extremely unhealthy is going on in the game. When spirit was better than nurse, it's because she was disgustingly broken and unfair and ruined the game. When PTB Twins was better than nurse, everyone could see how disgustingly OP and unhealthy that was and it was INSTANTLY reverted. Now the exact same is happening with judgement only far worse.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117350#Comment_4117350
Uh who said don't nerf Judgment? This forum post has only mentioned that Nurse should be nerfed, which I think people have been wanting for years, not that Judgment shouldn't be nerfed. The community still seems to be lacking in consensus on where Judgment belongs on a tier list, but personally I think once a little bit more time is given for more people to master her it's going to be painfully obvious she is S tier.
Because I don't see this person or any other forum users calling for judgement nerfs. Clearly they think nurse is more deserving of nerfs than judgment.
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@Hopi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117294#Comment_4117294
But you seem to think that a bot somehow gives you a chance at escaping. It doesn't. When was the least time you escaped with a bot or 2 on your team the whole game? The answer is pretty much never.
I can agree that the chances of escape with a bot on the team are lower than with an actual human player, but it's still possible. Not guaranteed, but possible.
So your options become either drag games out that are already decided with bots or end the game earlier and quicker so EVERYONE can go play a more enjoyable with old dcs.
First of all, it's not always decided: It depends on the stage of the match. Second: A bot is better than nothing. And third: When you say everyone, that includes the killer too. They are players too. And they should not be punished by ending the game earlier and quicker, just because a survivor decided to be DC.
In what way is that statement contradictory? Only when matched against the very best survivor teams is killer harder to pull of than survivor. Your average good/decent even strong survivor team it's still easier to beat as killer. That's why I said 99% of games are harder as survivor, which contributes to que time issues.
That is not what you said. Read it back: You said "99% of skill levels playing killer is harder". You said "killer", not "survivor". That's what made it look contradictory. However, if you initially misspoke and in fact meant "survivor" instead of "killer", then your argument is not contradictory.
Because your idea of increasing gen speeds does not make survivor more FUN.
If a system like this is ever implemented in 1v4, it should be used to make matches more balanced, not fun. Fun is not BHVR's responsibility. It is in fact your own. You have to make it fun for yourself.
It doesn't change the reasons why survivor is losing players right now.
I do not have enough information to confirm whether or not that's true.
2v8 Has a horrible player base for survivor and they have that feature in it so it's already been tested clearly, and it doesn't work.
As far as I know, 2v8 does not use MMR, because that would dramatically increase queue times. So you get paired up with players with various MMR levels. The test might probably be better if players had similar MMR, but we won't know that for sure until it's tested that way.
I'm arguing that to fix the fundamental problem that survivor has you need to fully rework the role/game and how it's played.
Rework is next to impossible at this point. But after second thought (because you mentioned this in your previous comment), maybe, just maybe, adding some sort of secondary win-condition for survivors could indeed be interesting.
Okay yeah everything I said regarding how to fix this game went right over your head. You gotta put your balancing biases aside for a second because there's plenty of ways to balance what I'm proposing. Balancing in a game like dbd is important but there's no point having a balanced but boring game.
I'm not sure that it did actually go over my head. I commented pretty much on everything you said. Also, if you find the game boring, then don't play it.
You can't just start playing a game and then, because you are not having fun, demand that they change it, just so that you are having fun. That's like choosing to emigrate to another country, and instead of adjusting to the values and customs of that country, you demand that they adjust to you. Imagine if everyone did that. That's just stupid.
The way I see it, BHVR has three responsibilities when it comes to Dead by Daylight: One: Make sure the game works and has as few bugs as possible. Two: Since it's a live-service game, make sure that the game receives new content every now and then. And three: Make sure the game is as balanced as it possibly can, which with a live-service game is an ever ongoing task.
Everything beyond that is up to the players. That includes fun. You have to make it fun for yourself. And if you cannot or will not do that, then maybe the game isn't for you.
If you want to increase the survivor player base and make the role more enjoyable this is by far the best way to do it, and probably the only way to stop the bleed.
Again, I don't have enough information to confirm whether or not it is actually bleeding.
This worked fine for years on dbd's release btw, the killer hysteria that would come from it is always overblown and exaggerated, because dbd used to work just fine when the game was more like this.
Are you suggesting that the game currently is not working just fine? Because as far as I can tell it actually is. Maybe not the way you personally want it, but it still works. I don't have data on the entire player base, but as far as Steam players are concerned, there's actually a steady, albeit slow, increase in player numbers over the past 10 years. And you don't have to take my word for it: You can see it for yourself on SteamDB.
Even on release when killer was SO MUCH WEAKER, it was still more than PLENTY fun to play. You can always fix balancing but you can't fix fun if you don't do something drastic about it. Additionally, don't forget that survivor needs to attract FOUR TIMES as many players as killer, so it legit just needs to be fun for 4 times as many people if you want to fix the issue.
BHVR is not supposed to 'fix' fun. That's up to the players. You can give your feedback to BHVR via the forums and the surveys, and it's then up to BHVR to decide whether or not to act on it. But they are not responsible for your individual fun. Only you are.
Well exactly so you've been brainwashed by ideas from many creators that that's how the SHOULD be and MUST be. Killers MUST always be able to down survivors no Ifs and Buts.
Yes, they do actually. That's why there's the Bloodlust mechanic. That's why resources are limited. The killer is the power role: They are supposed to be stronger than individual survivors.
Once again I'm saying you need to change this if you wanna put more individual agency back into survivor, which is what made the role popular to begin with.
That's just it: BHVR is not supposed to "put more individual agency back into survivor". It's a team-game: Survivors have to work together to get a favorable result. As I stated twice already: No single survivor is meant to win the game on his or her own. They have to do that as a team.
Your second to last paragraph literally just explains exactly why the survivor player base is dying. You would never say that about killer if it was as hard to win in soloq and miserable as soloq. It's complete double standards and exactly where the problems come from.
First: I don't have enough data to confirm if the survivor player base is in fact dying, but considering the increase in player numbers on Steam alone, I don't think it is. Second: I totally agree that solo-queue is indeed harder than a 4-man SWF. And BHVR is doing what they can to bridge the gap between solo-queue and SWF, including introducing the new Survivor Intent system in the PTB today. And third: Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see the double standard here, so you might have to explain that one.
Your last paragraph is so telling as well. You never played when the game used to be more individual agency based. This is when the game was super popular on survivor. Survivor has been so handi-capped in all the wrong ways that the role is so pointless individually now compared to what it used to be.
I think I finally understand the source of your discord in this entire conversation: You are comparing old Dead by Daylight with new Dead by Daylight. Is that what this is? Because that would explain where your arguments are coming from. And you're right in saying that I never played the game back then. In fact, I said that myself.
But the game has changed since then. Evolved even. The way the game was back then doesn't matter anymore. The only thing that matters is where the game is today and the direction in which the game is heading. And as a player you can either get by that, or stop playing.
It is absolutely impossible for BHVR to satisfy everyone's needs for Dead by Daylight. They simply do what they think is best. And they are the only ones that get to decide what's best. Not me, not you, not other players. Just them. All we as players can do is advise by providing constructive feedback of our experiences.
And on a side note: Old Dead by Daylight had its problems too. There's this really interesting video from Otz, featuring Cope and RunningMan, going over the "17 reasons NOT to miss the old dbd...", which is also the title of the video.
If you haven't seen it yet, I highly recommend you do. But then again, since you were there as a player back then, you've probably experienced all of that yourself. Which is even more reason why Dead by Daylight should keep on evolving.
It's possible for me to become the US president. Does that make it feasible, realistic or even a decent chance? No. Doesn't matter that you can "technically" win with a bot, you can also "technically" win with an old dc no?
You say it includes the killer too, but once again it also includes THREE OTHER SURVIVORS. Do you think it's healthy to hostage 3 players just to satisfy 1 other player? It's neither the survivors or killer's fault yet one of these groups is punished and the other isn't. Regardless however, bots are also boring asf to play against as killer because you know it's a free win and there's no challenge.
Sorry yes that was meant to be survivor. 99% of skill levels playing survivor is harder.
"Fun is not BHVR's responsibilty" uhhh yea it quite literally is if they want anyone to play their game. Ppl don't play dbd for the balance, they play it for the fun. You are asking for the game to die if you think this.
I don't find the game boring. STATISTICALLY more survivor players find the game boring and unfun and unfair. Why else would you write a whole post complaining about DCing survivors?? You clearly recognise that survivor retention is a problem. What causes this problem? The fun factor. It's literally that simple. Why do you play video games in the first place? Why do you play some games and not others???
This is mega gaslighting. I'm not asking to change the game to something new for the sake of it because I don't personally like it. I'm asking that the game be changed to what it USED to be when survivor retention used to be significantly higher. It's not new, it's literally just how it used to be before YOU guys tried to change the game into something new that it is now.
If the game's working fine, why are you writing a post about how dcing is out of control and needs to be dealt with and telling people how to play the game etc, whilst also acknowledgeable que times are through the roof for killer?
"Killer is the power role", okay you've been brainwashed by tru3ta1ent haven’t you. Spoken like a tru3 fan.
You're right the game is changing and that's the PROBLEM. NOT the balance changes necessarily but the fundamental game style and mechanics change which is destroying it. Otz's video shows why not to miss the game from a BALANCING perspective. Once again I'm not arguing from a balancing perspective, I'm arguing from a game health, enjoyment and longevity perspective. You have to put balance aside in this conversation because once again I'm trying to tell you that this argument is not about balance, it's fundamentally about how the game is played. The problem isn't that killer is more powerful than survivor compared to past times, it's that survivor is more uninteractive, unfun and teambased than ever.
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@Arcturus said:
Obviously Nurse has been S tier since her launch 10 years ago, and she is way too powerful in comparison to a lot of the roster. However, I'm not entirely sure how to even nerf her without her feeling awful to play and possibly being terrible.
Many people have suggested removing her ability to see auras, but while I think that might nerf casual Nurse players, I think Nurse mains would be pretty much just as powerful as ever.
How would you all change Nurse? Do you think removing aura reading while blinking would really make all the difference?
So we want to nerf nurse but not judgement? How insane has this forum become.
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@Hopi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117072#Comment_4117072
So punishing a killer is wrong but punishing 3 survivors is fine? This is why Dc's should just go back to the way they were cause then it punishes no one and ends the game much faster.
I never said that punishing survivors is fine. But if it feels that way to you, then the only one applying the punishment is the DC'ing survivor. In fact, going back to the old system punishes the other 3 survivors even more, because there's no bot anymore that can help. And although mostly not better than an actual human player, a bot is still better than nothing at all.
I'm glad someone is finally acknowledging that at 99% of skill levels playing killer is harder. Only playing against the literal very best survivor teams is killer harder than survivor.
No. I did not say that either. Also, your statement about skill levels looks contradictory: You stated that "at 99% of skill levels playing killer is harder". But also "Only playing against the literal very best survivor teams", suggesting that's the remaining 1%, killer is also harder. That would make killer harder than survivor 100% of the time.
Additionally, in your post from September 10th 5:24 PM, you said, and I quote, "if I wanted to win playing this game I'd play killer any day, it's a far easier role to win on". So it's 'a far easier role to win on', but also harder at least 99% of the time.
Can you explain how that makes sense?
Your idea based on increasing gen speeds when someone dies etc maybe might increase the player base a little bit? But it's not going to solve the long term survivor killer ratio issues the game currently has.
How can you know that if it's not tested first?
That doesn't make survivor more fun, just holds your hand a little bit if you are losing, which won't matter because likely the time that those mechanics kick in the game is already lost and unwinnable.
That will depend entirely on the actual mechanics. And the only way to find out what works and what doesn't, is to test it.
With this objective, they can buff loops to strengths that they used to be, increase chase time and interactivity, nerf killers that hard counter loops and give them all significant chase weaknesses and increase overall game time length.
Do you realize what you're saying? Buffing loops, nerfing killers by giving them "significant chase weaknesses"? That shifts balance way too much towards the survivors. And there's 4 of them, giving them a huge advantage over killer-players. Also, killers are supposed to chase survivors. It's a core mechanic of the game. Their primary objective.
It's up to the survivors to extend chases for as long as possible using skills, knowledge, resources, the environment, perks and help from other teammates. And chases are ultimately supposed to be lost by the survivors. That's why resources are limited. That's why there's the Bloodlust mechanic for the killer, to make them faster the longer the chase lasts. The goal of a chase is to keep the killer occupied for as long as you possibly can, in order to buy your teammates time. The more time you can give your teammates, the better.
No single survivor is meant to win the game on his or her own. That's why it's a team game: As survivors, you are supposed to work together. It's not 1 killer vs 4 teams consisting of 1 survivor, but 1 killer vs 1 team consisting of 4 survivors.
This actually would give some fun and purpose to survivor, whilst also giving survivors agency to make a huge solo impact and carry games.
Maybe. But what about killer-players? Do you think shifting the balance that much towards survivors is fun for killers?
This will never happen though because bvhr relies on grabbing in extremely casual and new players to fill the survivor player base. Good players are greatly more likely to opt for killer currently which is the problem.
What are you basing this on? There are plenty of good players who play both killer and survivor (for example JRM, Ayrun, Hens and Otz).
What i mean by "the way games used to be won was extremely different", is that in the old days chase was like the main thing that mattered in the game. Survivors had many tools in chase mostly but also some outside that were able to hugely sway and impact games.
Don't they still have those tools? They still have pallets, window-vaults, perks and items to extend chases. Efficient use of those extends chases even further.
Chases could last way longer depending on the survivors skill level, and chases felt more like a 1v1 battle which was sick and hella fun.
And that still applies today. The more skills you have as a survivor, the longer you can keep a killer occupied.
most killers chases involve a ticking time bomb where you know you will go down but it's just a matter of 20 or 40 seconds.
Yes, and that is supposed to happen. As I stated earlier in this comment: Chases are ultimately supposed to be lost by the survivors, but the longer you can keep the killer occupied, the better for the team. In a 1v1 you are not supposed to win against the killer. You are supposed to occupy their time for as long as you can.
Becoming a better survivor is not a reward to new players no, because it doesn't win them nearly as many games as becoming a better killer. Infact it just makes you more frustrated at the game when you get unwinnable games/bad teams etc.
That's a matter of mindset. All matches are an experience that teaches you about how to do or not do something, or how to or not to handle a certain situation. You just have to be willing to learn. And if not, then maybe Dead by Daylight isn't for you.
And being good individually is LESS relevant than being good as a team now.
I can't speak for the early days of DBD, since I only started playing in 2022, but I agree that being good individually is less relevant than being good as a team. It's as I said earlier in this comment: No single survivor is meant to win the game on his or her own.
But you seem to think that a bot somehow gives you a chance at escaping. It doesn't. When was the least time you escaped with a bot or 2 on your team the whole game? The answer is pretty much never. So your options become either drag games out that are already decided with bots or end the game earlier and quicker so EVERYONE can go play a more enjoyable with old dcs.
In what way is that statement contradictory? Only when matched against the very best survivor teams is killer harder to pull of than survivor. Your average good/decent even strong survivor team it's still easier to beat as killer. That's why I said 99% of games are harder as survivor, which contributes to que time issues.
Because your idea of increasing gen speeds does not make survivor more FUN. It doesn't change the reasons why survivor is losing players right now. 2v8 Has a horrible player base for survivor and they have that feature in it so it's already been tested clearly, and it doesn't work. I'm arguing that to fix the fundamental problem that survivor has you need to fully rework the role/game and how it's played.
Okay yeah everything I said regarding how to fix this game went right over your head. You gotta put your balancing biases aside for a second because there's plenty of ways to balance what I'm proposing. Balancing in a game like dbd is important but there's no point having a balanced but boring game. If you want to increase the survivor player base and make the role more enjoyable this is by far the best way to do it, and probably the only way to stop the bleed. This worked fine for years on dbd's release btw, the killer hysteria that would come from it is always overblown and exaggerated, because dbd used to work just fine when the game was more like this. Even on release when killer was SO MUCH WEAKER, it was still more than PLENTY fun to play. You can always fix balancing but you can't fix fun if you don't do something drastic about it. Additionally, don't forget that survivor needs to attract FOUR TIMES as many players as killer, so it legit just needs to be fun for 4 times as many people if you want to fix the issue.
Well exactly so you've been brainwashed by ideas from many creators that that's how the SHOULD be and MUST be. Killers MUST always be able to down survivors no Ifs and Buts. Once again I'm saying you need to change this if you wanna put more individual agency back into survivor, which is what made the role popular to begin with.
Your second to last paragraph literally just explains exactly why the survivor player base is dying. You would never say that about killer if it was as hard to win in soloq and miserable as soloq. It's complete double standards and exactly where the problems come from.
Your last paragraph is so telling as well. You never played when the game used to be more individual agency based. This is when the game was super popular on survivor. Survivor has been so handi-capped in all the wrong ways that the role is so pointless individually now compared to what it used to be.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116448#Comment_4116448
I've gone against Tator head before I can vouch that he's decent at the game
Uh no. Decent compared to ur average pub player? Sure. Good enough to ever play at a semi comp level or against good killers? No way
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@Hopi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116444#Comment_4116444
But one survivor being gone doesn't just shift the game, It makes the game unwinnable and pointless if the killer is at an even skill level.
Unwinnable and pointless, no. But harder, absolutely. So it's up to the survivors to delay that for as long as possible. The expected kill-rate for killers is between 60 and 65 percent if I'm not mistaken, so it's not unexpected that not all survivors make it. Sometimes you're lucky and get out and sometimes you're not. My escape rate is 45%, so I escape less than half of the time.
There's literally no point playing out a game if a teammate dc's because there's basically no chance of escaping unless the killer lets you go or doesn't try on purpose.
I agree that, once a teammate DC's, it's gonna be a lot harder. But ending the trial then and there, indirectly punishes the killer-player: They already had to wait anywhere between 5 and 15 minutes for a match, and because one survivor decided to be selfish and DC, the match ends prematurely. So the killer-player doesn't get to play after waiting quite a while already, just because one survivor is selfish. That doesn't seem fair to me.
The current system is not perfect, but, as far as I can tell, it's the best it has ever been. And maybe it can improve even more at some point, but that takes time.
This is why you should be able to leave and dc without a penalty if someone on ur team does.
No, because that would only encourage more DC'ing, which is the very thing the DC-penalty is trying to discourage players from doing.
It's very simple: When you as a player press Play, you declare your intent to play a match in the selected role, against the other role. In the case of Survivor you then get into a lobby within 5 to 30 seconds (mostly). You then enter the actual lobby with the other players and you have an additional 55 seconds before the match actually starts to load.
And once that happens, you are committed. Once the match starts to load, you are expected to finish it. You've had about a minute to change your mind and back out after all. But if you didn't, then you're expected to commit to it and finish the trial. After that, you are free to leave.
So, excluding any real-world emergencies, you are not supposed to DC when you're no longer having fun: You have to finish what you started, because that's what you committed yourself into doing towards the other players when you pressed the Play button, went to the lobby and didn't back out. This applies to all players, survivors and killers alike. And if a player thinks that it doesn't apply to them, then that's entitlement. That's selfish.
The conditions are more strict for winning on survivor because you need 4 good players at a decent level to beat a good killer, you all need to be on the same page and you ALL have to be playing the game well.
Assuming MMR does its job, then you should get that. However, MMR prioritizes queue-times over exact MMR matching. So sometimes you get survivors of slightly different skill levels, or maybe one or more survivors are having a bad day and are not performing according to their 'expected' MMR. That is something you can never fully plan for, regardless of what kind of MMR system you're using.
If you have 4 survivors on the same level, same page, and same mindset, then you indeed have a much higher chance for a favorable result. But that just doesn't happen every single time. We're not all comp-level or perfect communicators. You can still get situations where, even if MMR is the same across all survivors, one single mistake can cost the survivors the match, depending on where and when it happens and how the killer deals with it.
And that is exactly why, in my original post, I stated that, as a survivor, you are not entitled to a favorable outcome of the trial. Sure, it can happen, even more so when you put in effort, but you're not supposed to expect it every single match, or even the majority of matches. If you want it, all 4 survivors have to work for it. They're part of a team after all, where each survivor has a shared responsibility for the result of the team. And if survivors refuse to play normally, or purposefully throw the match, they can get punished for that if you report them for unsportsmanlike conduct afterwards.
You just need yourself as killer to win. Yes i know this is because it's an asymmetrical game, but it's also why survivor is more unpopular than ever. Why rely on teammates when I can just play the role that relies on myself and I know i can win games by myself?
I don't have enough information to determine if this is indeed what's making playing as a survivor unpopular, but I do agree that playing killer is far easier, since you only have to rely on yourself.
No not everyone gives up and goes to killer or starts dcing, but for a healthy que system and game you need FOUR survivors to every ONE killer, so you need to make survivor 4 times as attractive to play. That's just not happening at the moment.
I completely agree with this one. And in order to make it attractive for survivors to play, you could give them an incentive to keep on playing if the balance shifts too much in one team's favor. And there is actually a way to do that, and it is already partially being used in 2V8 at the moment. Keep in mind though that this system has to be thought out very carefully and properly and extensively tested:
There used to be a game similar to Dead by Daylight, called Propnight. 4 survivors, 1 killer, 5 of the 7 generators had to be fixed and 2 exit gates. It was basically 'Dead by Daylight meets Prophunt', but the core gameplay was the same. And what they did was to introduce conditional buffs and nerfs, whenever the balance shifted too much. For example: If 4 of 5 generators were repaired and all 4 survivors were still alive, then the killer would get a 10% speed boost until one of the survivors died.
You can do this the other way around as well. For example: If 5 generators remain, and a survivor has already been sacrificed or killed, you could increase the survivor's repair speed, until an x amount of generators remain. It's basically a way to conditionally 'even the odds' as it were. 2V8 currently uses something similar, where the repair speed is increased or decreased based on the amount of hooks the killers have and the amount of gens that have already been completed.
Is a system like this healthy for the game? I honestly don't know. The only way to know for sure is to test it, which is probably why it's currently in 2V8. And I'm not saying that this could in fact solve anything, but I am saying that it is worth considering.
That's probably cause the last 4 years is when alot of solo agency has been removed from the game, this is somethign that started happening loooong ago. Go back about 7 or 8 years, the way to win games was incredibly different. Your individual chase skill could single handedly determine games, and there was much more of a correlation between your chase skill and ability to influence the game. Alot of chase skill has been removed these days, and the game at the top level is literally about playing guesswork 50/50s now and insta dropping every pallet. You now win games by dying in corners, doing gens fast, dying in the right spots, trading, winning large amounts of 50/50s etc all these things.
Can you give concrete examples of this? Like, when you say "the way to win games was incredibly different", what do you mean exactly?
Playing survivor is getting worse that's the problem. You say that you should just get over the learning curve, but there's no reward to this.
Becoming a better survivor player is not a reward? What kind of reward were you expecting?
Contrast to killer, it's much more enjoyable to see how improving your skill level directly translates to tangible changes in your results, gameplay and enjoyment in the way you are able to impact the game.
Why would this not apply to survivor gameplay? If you become better in chases, you can keep the killer occupied for longer, buying your team time. That's a tangible change as well, is it not? Longer chases also impact the game.
So punishing a killer is wrong but punishing 3 survivors is fine? This is why Dc's should just go back to the way they were cause then it punishes no one and ends the game much faster.
I'm glad someone is finally acknowledging that at 99% of skill levels playing killer is harder. Only playing against the literal very best survivor teams is killer harder than survivor.
Your idea based on increasing gen speeds when someone dies etc maybe might increase the player base a little bit? But it's not going to solve the long term survivor killer ratio issues the game currently has. That doesn't make survivor more fun, just holds your hand a little bit if you are losing, which won't matter because likely the time that those mechanics kick in the game is already lost and unwinnable.
What you REALLY need to fix survivor is a complete gameplay overhaul. They need to add a second objective to the game that's interesting for survivors and DOESN'T involve holding m1 on gens. With this objective, they can buff loops to strengths that they used to be, increase chase time and interactivity, nerf killers that hard counter loops and give them all significant chase weaknesses and increase overall game time length. This actually would give some fun and purpose to survivor, whilst also giving survivors agency to make a huge solo impact and carry games. This will never happen though because bvhr relies on grabbing in extremely casual and new players to fill the survivor player base. Good players are greatly more likely to opt for killer currently which is the problem.
What i mean by "the way games used to be won was extremely different", is that in the old days chase was like the main thing that mattered in the game. Survivors had many tools in chase mostly but also some outside that were able to hugely sway and impact games. Chases could last way longer depending on the survivors skill level, and chases felt more like a 1v1 battle which was sick and hella fun. Sure you can argue that some parts of it weren't balanced for killer, but it was undoubtedly more fun for both sides and better for survivor. Nowadays your chase is really secondary to the teams macro and co-ordination. There's less of a different between a good survivor and a mediocre survivor in chase, and it's just less relevant to the game now because most killers chases involve a ticking time bomb where you know you will go down but it's just a matter of 20 or 40 seconds. I can give some specific examples if you want.
Becoming a better survivor is not a reward to new players no, because it doesn't win them nearly as many games as becoming a better killer. Infact it just makes you more frustrated at the game when you get unwinnable games/bad teams etc. And being good individually is LESS relevant than being good as a team now.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116480#Comment_4116480
Yeah read that last part and read between the lines. You need a basically unrestricted killer (the dredge was allowed to run ruindying and eruption), running on its best set of maps, against a 4 man swf not able to use the strongest perks in the game, no duplicate perks and basekit features to make them even viable. Does that sound remotely balanced? Imagine these survivors were allowed to run exhaustion, STB, reassurance. The dredge would be at the mercy of them making game changing mistakes rather than being better.
Also I'm just finding it funny people like you think that exhaustion is required for 80% of the roster or else they down you too quick when in those same comp dredge matches no one was allowed to run any exhaustion perks and still got down to 1 gen. Now imagine just the slightly above average players allowed to run exhaustion and all the other super strong perks.You are allowed to run some exhaustions against dredge??
Dredge has many a perks banned as well? DMS, AURA PERKS, MANY hexes are now banned i think undying is perma banned now, why? Because dredge was AVERAGING a 4k1 on midwhich. He didn't just have a chance at 4king, he was doing it nearly everygame. You seem to think that killers are incompetent and have no agency in a game.
It doesn't matter how many gens they got down to it's still A 4K. The game should not be balanced around "can one team 4k2 and can one 4k3". That's a win for the killer everytime. A balanced game involves outs and 4ks and 1ks and 2ks etc.
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@guest2w said:
come 1v1?
I'll 1v1 ya mate
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116476#Comment_4116476
Because it's a waste of my time. And by results of comp I mean survivors are by far the most restricted role and the killer has to fight tooth and nail just to do anything. No restrictions and dredge would be losing on most maps. Also given Dredge is almost exclusively given Midwich which is one of its best maps.
You've spent hours on this forum debating me and others, doesn't look like time is the issue to me.
You can just say that you can't prove these things in game it's okay to admit that!
There's plenty of killer restrictions as well you know? Perks like dms, aura perks, many totem perks etc are completely banned. S tier killers are even MORE restricted.
Well of course because dredge is one of the worst killers in the game on most maps, but on midwhich and other certain indoor maps? He's literally one of the best and nearly unbeatable.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116448#Comment_4116448
I would say exhaustion is guaranteed to extend chases it's only ever not guaranteed if you are the most oblivious person on the planet or you're running smash hit against a killer that respects every pallet.
Also about Tatorhead. You can say he goes against XYZ but he has probably some of the best fundamentals in the game unlike the average survivor.
Also, I don't ever recall accepting a custom offer because I already know the average result. No holds barred a good survivor team will STOMP a clown on most maps. Not to say Clown can't win it requires heavily on the survivors making mistakes rather than actually outplaying the survivor. Like I said earlier, comp is a joke but does prove something. The game is survivor sided at its core it's just your opponents can either be an infant with the sharpest sword in the world that can easily cut through your sword but won't manage much since it's an infant. But put that same sword in the hands of someone equal or even slightly better and its game over. Denying the results from comp is just intellectual dishonesty.If you know the average result why are you so scared to play against me?
I think we know exactly why.... All bark no bite.
Denying the results from comp? Mate most comp matches end in 2-4ks, somekillers like dredge are almost always 4ks. You are clueless about comp so don't bring it up. Comp is a completely different ballpark anyway with all the perk bans I'm not even talking about that.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116246#Comment_4116246
I'd like to see this "universally agreed upon" statistic that auto didact is a "horrific" perk. As for the other perks. STB saves your team immense pressure but not allowing the killer a kill earlier than expected. I think you're also think you're misunderstanding Resurgence, Resurgence heals YOU off hook for 70% of your healing progress for free. You did literally nothing and you saved 3/4 of healing time.
How is saying I don't run exhaustion an insane take? I simply like to play in a way to get the killer to chase me and not incentivize them to go back and tunnel like how a lot of survivors don't seem to understand that level of macro decision making. And people can last very long in chase without exhaustion. May I direct you to MrTatorHead who ran survivor without perks for multiple years and still has on average longer chases than a lot of other survivors because of his immense game sense which the average survivor lacks. As for playing a mid-tier killer against a swf…. Yeah, play clown with no perk restrictions see where that gets you. Comp is naturally a joke but it does prove one thing and that's the game is survivor sided at its core but people rarely ever make full use of it. It just feels like intellectual dishonesty to say "Uhhh 80% of the killer roster will ######### on you in chase if they are good at the killer and you don't have an exhaustion."
Also plot twist only working with ds/deli lol. It's literally just a full solo heal for 2 hook stages because for some reason it needs to refresh after being unhooked.You ask anyone decent at the game they'll tell you autodidact is hot garbage.
Sure you CAN last long without an exhaution, but an exhaustion is nearly GUARANTEED to extend your chase significantly, especially against all these new crazy op killers.
MrTatorHead plays against noob killers so he can farm his video content. He literally farms his content off of either noob killers who are clueluess or the worst m1 killers in the game.
Yeah i'll gladly play clown against you guys with no perk restrictions. Clown is alot stronger than you think i wouldn't be underestimating that killer. When do you wanna do this? Get your best 4man squad we can run it up whenever you want.
It's quicker and safer to heal with a medkit or selfcare than plotwist, so plot twist is only used in combo with DS and DELI, one of which did get hard nerfed this patch.
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@NordSahne said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116296#Comment_4116296
What? That's not what I said, stop putting words in my mouth, I just explained why people are usually not that upset about a killer giving up in comparison to a survivor, all I ever said is that people who load the game should just play the game, because they decided to start it, it was their choice
Yeah so it's double standards, killers are allowed to dc no one cares, survivors dc well the game decides to punish the entire lobby for it. Why don't we make it fair, since we are all about fairness on these forums right?
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@Hopi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116334#Comment_4116334
if I wanted to win playing this game I'd play killer any day, it's a far easier role to win on
I can somewhat see how it would be easier, but probably not for the same reason: When playing killer, you have all the control over how your 'team' plays, since there's only one killer. With survivor there's 4 in a team, which makes you indeed dependent on the other 3 survivors. That's why I have a serious problem with DC'in survivors, because you're supposed to play as 4 members of a team. Trials are, after all, balanced around 4 players, having to repair 5 generators, while being chased by 1 killer. So if one of the survivors is gone, then that's obviously gonna shift the balance in favor of the killer, depending on gen progress. So the Survivors have to put in more effort to get a favorable result. Hopefully the new Intent system is going to help with that.
the conditions for winning on survivor are much more strict at an equal skill level (needing a 4man etc).
I'm not sure I understand this one. Can you elaborate?
Especially as survivor it's incredibly difficult to learn alot of these things because you are reliant on teammates to learn alot
When not playing with friends and/or somewhat experienced players, learning can be slow maybe. Not sure it's gonna be difficult. There's a lot to learn and without friends providing feedback during trials, the learning process will take a lot longer. There's no one to tell you afterwards how the killer's perks factored into their strategy and what you could potentially do differently next time. So yeah, I can definitely see how learning without friends could be a lot slower.
This is part of the problem. The game is way harder to win as survivor at an average level so people are either gonna give up more, leave, dc etc or just go play killer, both of which are terrible options for longetivity of the game.
Not everyone does that. I didn't. I kept trying, and ultimately I got better. And I can't be the only one that keeps trying.
you need to incentivise people to play more survivor and make it more enjoyable
Agreed. A 2.5x BP multiplier (if you're even lucky to get that) is not that interesting anymore.
The reason survivor used to be so popular, contrary to popular belief, is that survivor used to have alot of SOLO agency in the game. You could single handedly win a game as survivor through a good chase etc, there was alot of room for impact and skill expression INDIVIDUALLY.
Can you give an example of an in-game situation where this was the case?
Unfortunately, the game has morphed so much now that individual survivor skill is alot less relevant and doesn't win you games, it's all about the team play and macro now
As far as I remember (for the 4 years that I'm playing the game), Dead by Daylight has always been about teams: The Survivor-team, consisting of 4, vs the Killer-team, consisting of 1. And to say that individual skill is less relevant is not true in my opinion: If a survivor is skilled enough to keep a killer occupied long enough for multiple gens to pop, then how is that not relevant? How does that not help win games?
I actually had a match earlier today where my teammate kept a Jason occupied for 4 gens. Didn't even get injured until the 4th gen popped. Jason had practically lost at that point. So that teammate's individual skill definitely benefitted the rest of the team.
which is not only boring but encourages people to go play killer or get frustrated with the game because unlike killer, often there's literally nothing you can do to win a game, and too often.
I don't see how a survivor's display of skill to help the team is boring. I personally don't think it is. In fact, I get a real rush after a long chase and even more if the killer abandons the chase.
I only play survivor with ex-comp mates for example because otherwise it can get pretty miserable pretty fast.
Playing with random survivors can be tough, I'm not gonna deny that, so playing with friends to understand the game and who can communicate well is a lot easier and therefore (hopefully) fun. Thankfully though, the new Intent system will most likely remedy that at least a little bit.
It feels like you're not working towards anything because you can't practise skills individually, you can't win games for your team and you can't make that impact.
Maybe not alone or only after a high amount of practice and experience. So playing with friends or being part of a community that can help you with that can be very helpful there. I myself am part of a community for Dutch speaking DBD players, and there's always the official Dead by Daylight Discord server that you can join to find teammates.
Playing survivor really isn't that bad. You just have to overcome the learning curve. And that takes effort and time.
But one survivor being gone doesn't just shift the game, It makes the game unwinnable and pointless if the killer is at an even skill level. There's literally no point playing out a game if a teammate dc's because there's basically no chance of escaping unless the killer lets you go or doesn't try on purpose. This is why you should be able to leave and dc without a penalty if someone on ur team does.
The conditions are more strict for winning on survivor because you need 4 good players at a decent level to beat a good killer, you all need to be on the same page and you ALL have to be playing the game well. You just need yourself as killer to win. Yes i know this is because it's an asymmetrical game, but it's also why survivor is more unpopular than ever. Why rely on teammates when I can just play the role that relies on myself and I know i can win games by myself?
No not everyone gives up and goes to killer or starts dcing, but for a healthy que system and game you need FOUR survivors to every ONE killer, so you need to make survivor 4 times as attractive to play. That's just not happening at the moment.
That's probably cause the last 4 years is when alot of solo agency has been removed from the game, this is somethign that started happening loooong ago. Go back about 7 or 8 years, the way to win games was incredibly different. Your individual chase skill could single handedly determine games, and there was much more of a correlation between your chase skill and ability to influence the game. Alot of chase skill has been removed these days, and the game at the top level is literally about playing guesswork 50/50s now and insta dropping every pallet. You now win games by dying in corners, doing gens fast, dying in the right spots, trading, winning large amounts of 50/50s etc all these things.
Playing survivor is getting worse that's the problem. You say that you should just get over the learning curve, but there's no reward to this. Contrast to killer, it's much more enjoyable to see how improving your skill level directly translates to tangible changes in your results, gameplay and enjoyment in the way you are able to impact the game.
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@Hopi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116313#Comment_4116313
So would it be fine to replace DCing killers with killer bots then? You would support that change?
Well, the fact that BHVR is working on it (which can be seen in 2V8), my guess is that there is in fact a majority or at least a large part of the player base that would support it.
We want to continue to punish survivors, force them to place every single match out, force them to play against miserable and unfun killers and unfun matches
No one is forcing them: They willingly press Play to queue-up against a killer. And they can't cherry-pick the parts of the experience that you want and discard the rest. If they want that, they should play a sandbox or single-player game.
It's very easy to just point the finger at entitlement, its a cop out. Doesn't fix any of the issues regarding killer ques, survivors dcing, survivors giving up etc.
I agree with you there. As in, it doesn't solve killer queues, survivors DC'ing or giving up. But it does cause Survivor's DC'ing or giving up, because they believe they have certain entitlements about various parts of the trials.
If you punish DC's even more then people will just afk, or give up, or find other ways of not playing the game out properly if they don't want to.
Honestly, for the overall quality of the survivor-part of the player base, that would not necessarily be a bad thing.
Dead by Daylight has a very steep learning curve. Everyone who wants to be good at the game has to put in a lot of time and effort to get the skills needed to play well. Not perfect, but well. And once you do, you will start to enjoy the game a lot more. Sure, you will still have bad matches, but not as much as before. With practice comes skill and with skill comes success.
And I was no different: I used to complain a lot as a survivor, because I was under the impression that the game wasn't fair. I even went so far as to (and this is something I actually did, and to this day am still ashamed of), go into the post-game chat afterwards to call the killer a coward (in capitals) for camping a hooked survivor in end-game. But it wasn't until I started playing more killer that I came to understand why they did it. And now I do it too: Once the gens are done there are no more objectives to defend. So a hooked survivor becomes your sole objective at that point. A consolation prize as it were.
Long story short: It turned out that there simply was a lot I didn't know yet. So I put in effort to learn, to understand and to get better. And now, compared to back then, I am. And I think that's what survivor players need to enjoy the game more: Put in time and effort to learn an understand the game. Make mistakes, learn from them, and improve.
And if they don't want to do that, if they don't want to learn, if they are not prepared to put in effort to get better, then for their own sake and mental well-being, maybe they should stop playing Dead by Daylight and pick a game that they can actually enjoy.
No one is forcing them, but if you want survivors to kill as killer your gonna need to encourage more people to play survivor. At the moment if I wanted to win playing this game I'd play killer any day, it's a far easier role to win on because the conditions for winning on survivor are much more strict at an equal skill level (needing a 4man etc).
I agree that there's deceptively alot of depth, especially macro wise but also prediction and game knowledge wise in this game. Especially as survivor it's incredibly difficult to learn alot of these things because you are reliant on teammates to learn alot of this stuff and execute it. This is part of the problem. The game is way harder to win as survivor at an average level so people are either gonna give up more, leave, dc etc or just go play killer, both of which are terrible options for longetivity of the game.
To fix this, you need to incentivise people to play more survivor and make it more enjoyable. The reason survivor used to be so popular, contrary to popular belief, is that survivor used to have alot of SOLO agency in the game. You could single handedly win a game as survivor through a good chase etc, there was alot of room for impact and skill expression INDIVIDUALLY. Unfortunately, the game has morphed so much now that individual survivor skill is alot less relevant and doesn't win you games, it's all about the team play and macro now, which is not only boring but encourages people to go play killer or get frustrated with the game because unlike killer, often there's literally nothing you can do to win a game, and too often. I only play survivor with ex-comp mates for example because otherwise it can get pretty miserable pretty fast. It feels like you're not working towards anything because you can't practise skills individually, you can't win games for your team and you can't make that impact.
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@HexFelix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116318#Comment_4116318
Judgment beam: Aim, drag around, fire means it has reaction time and can’t just be send to a survivor in a loop in front of you instantly.
Victor: Runs up to you, looks and hits means victor is way easier to hit but can only take a single health state every pounce on a healthy survivor (and can be kicked and destroyed via pallets)
Judgments beam can be reacted to early, victor has his own unique counterplay with pallets and lockers,.
„Ah yes just look at the ability and dodge it. That's NOT sufficient evidence of fun, fair gameplay and counter play.“And what I said was that your logic is basically that. So in your world huntress needs a nerf because you need to look at 90% of killers and react to them using their power. Judgment has counterplay, survivors are just to lazy to learn it.
If it’s unfun for you or you dislike the killers power than thats not a problem with the killer.It’s like with Krasue where everybody cried about her until she got nerfed and now I see her every time a meteor lands in my backyard.
Like I said nerf survivor in general, not perks, general than I’m fine with nerfing high tiers like judgment ect.
And if you have so much proof than make your own post instead of arguing in a post that is about a completely different topic, that you do that is just proof of your entitlement.So judgements projectile is not as strong as victors/balanced because you need to aim and drag it, and it has a reaction time? What do you mean by a reaction time? And also it can be sent to a survivor in front of you so gonna ignore that part. Do you not need to aim victors power? What's the difference? I'm asking because I want to establish a set of principles regarding ranged projectiles.
Nice once again you've ignored literally everything else I said. Can we first agree that every projectile killer is different? That some projectiles are stronger than others?
Then I asked what's the criteria for making a projectile balanced, fun and fair in your opinion?
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@HexFelix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116307#Comment_4116307
Judgment is fine because her projectile is dodgeble while the ptb twins was unavoidable. And if the judgment player predicts your movements and hits you then they deserved to hit you. Chases are meant to be lost eventually. And me saying I had no problems dodging it 70% of the time because I know how the killer works and I have experience in this game while you say it has no counterplay like day one survivor.
I’m not taking you seriously because you compare something that is live, out for a week to something that was just in a ptb and declared as a disaster.
And why should I go custom and waste my time with a random?
And sure I’m inexperienced with 4K hours who plays 60% killer and 40% survivor and playing for now 6 years.
And you have no proof that judgment is broken yourself.
„To your last point, so blight and nurse's counterplay is dodging the rushes and blinks? Why did these killers get nerfed then? According to you they already have enough counterplay because you can "see and dodge" the ability? Such a primitive understanding of game balance, it's why this game's gone to #########“
Using only the top 2 killers as example shows your manipulative and world twisting side. What about huntress, her gameplay is look at where she aims and dodge the axe, she is unfun and unfair by your definition. So does huntress need a nerf, according to your logic yes.
I never said judgment isn’t strong, I just said that she is fine as she is now. If you want serious nerfs for it and some other high tiers you need to nerf survivors in general because this game is currently survivor sided, and thats a fact.
But keep arguing, I find it really funny how baby’s whine when the other side gets something.
Now why is judgements projectile dodgable but victor's isn't? What's the difference there? Why are some projectiles dodgable and some not? I'm glad we are establishing that projectiles are not inherently dodgable in nature.
Your huntress point is very interesting. This is what I'm trying to get you to understand this whole conversation which is rather basic, but you seem to be missing. NOT ALL PROJECTILES ARE THE SAME. It's not by my logic that huntress needs a nerf, it's by YOUR logic that all projectiles are the same.
Quite clearly we can see in any video game, but dbd as well that every projectile is different. Otherwise, we'd just have one projectile killer and that'd be the end of the day. So we know every projectile is different, and based on our previous understand that victor's projectile is not dodgable, that some projectiles are not dodgable.
So now we come to step 2 in basic game design, what makes a projectile fair, fun, and counterable/dodgable?
Oh also i have plenty of proof that judgement is broken but I need to teach you what proof is first apparently.
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@Hopi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116302#Comment_4116302
So we should just punish the team if their teammate dc's instead of just ending the game?
The only one who should be punished in that scenario is the survivor that DC'd. And that's what the DC-penalty is for. The game already does the next best thing it can do for the other players, which is to supply a bot to replace the DC'd survivor. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing. A couple of years ago there were no bots to replace DC'ing survivors, so it used to be worse.
the killer can selfishly leave the game as they wish as the game doesn't punish others if a killer does this
Why should others be punished for the killer DC'ing?
How is it fair if I'm a survivor and my killer DC's, like you said, that's not my fault? Why should my game immediately end?
Because the entire opposing team is gone, so there's nothing for the survivors to play against anymore. And until BHVR replaces DC'ing killers with killer bots, then this is how it's gonna be.
Dead by Daylight is an asymmetrical PvP game. Asymmetrical, as in not identical on both sides. If all 4 survivors were to DC, then the trial is over too, because the entire team that was opposing the killer is gone. However, due to the bots replacing survivors the killer has the option to continue, instead of ending the match. But the option is there.
And also, with killer queue's being what they are right now, imagine a killer having to wait 10-15 minutes for a match, only for it to immediately or prematurely end when a survivor DC's, because they don't like the killer/map or some other reason. Is that fair towards the killer?
If an entire team is gone, then there is no more opposition for the remaining team. And the only reason that, in the case of a DC'ing killer, the match is immediately over, is because there are no killer bots yet.
But we need to look at the reasons WHY people DC, especially more against certain killers or in certain games.
Well that one's easy: Entitlement. Survivors feel like they are entitled to DC against certain killers or under certain conditions, because they believe it's not fair or not fun, or not what they were expecting.
And the whole point of me starting this entire post 2 days ago is to make it clear that they are in fact not entitled to do that. The only thing regarding Dead by Daylight that any player is entitled to, and I want to thank NordSahne for pointing that out, is a functional game. Because that's what we paid for.
No I and alot of people would argue Bots is way worse than just an old DC. An OLD DC ends the game faster and lets EVERYONE go next quicker rather than holding the rest of the team hostage in a now unwinnable game.
So would it be fine to replace DCing killers with killer bots then? You would support that change?
Why are killer ques so horrendous now compared to what they used to be hm? It's because no one wants to play survivor anymore. It's a miserable role Solo and you have to have 4 good players for it to be enjoyable. We kill the survivor role and now we want to further punish survivors even more and disincentivise people from playing survivor? This will simply make killer ques EVEN WORSE. This is precisely the point I'm getting to. We want to continue to punish survivors, force them to place every single match out, force them to play against miserable and unfun killers and unfun matches, and in the same breath scratch our heads and wonder why killer ques are so horrible? I'm saying this all as A KILLER MAIN, I don't want killer ques to get any worse that's why we need to incentivise people to play survivor more.
It's very easy to just point the finger at entitlement, its a cop out. Doesn't fix any of the issues regarding killer ques, survivors dcing, survivors giving up etc. If you punish DC's even more then people will just afk, or give up, or find other ways of not playing the game out properly if they don't want to.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116245#Comment_4116245
You SAY that you can, You SAY you can record evidence, yet you STILL DON'T and once again go "come at me bro". Go to the wild fog, record your proof, drop those beams on ppls heads. SHOW don't TELL.
It's not in the least mate.
Hahahaha so can or can you not land the ability ontop of a survivor? I want to make this VERY clear before I show you evidence so you don't just change your mind and say "I didn't say that" when i show you otherwise.
And i will be showing you but the killer is bugged atm since the 2v8 patch (typical bhvr) so we'll be waiting till that's fixed.
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@HexFelix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116301#Comment_4116301
A: Judgment is Defenetly a killer that is hard to master. Learning any killer is way harder than learning survivor.
B: I never said by definition that a killer with no mobility has right to infinite power. Like if they make a killer that walks 0.5 /s but hooks all survivors via a button press isn’t fair. You are just twisting my words to make them fit in your world.
And comparing this killer to ptb twins is absolutely hilarious because victor is way easier to hit with than that beam. And accusing the judgments I faced fo not knowing what they where doing is absolutely disgusting since they were actual good players who knew how to aim. I died in most of them but i didn’t got hit on generators because I use my eyes and ears, and I dodged lost of beams in chase.„Come demonstrate this fun, fair and reliable counterplay you are talking about in a custom against MY judgement, see how you like that?“
No thanks I have better things to do than waste my time with a random crying guy who thinks that old dh apparently had counterplay but a killer with a well telegraphed and sound power has not.
„Ah yes just look at the ability and dodge it. That's NOT sufficient evidence of fun, fair gameplay and counter play.“Well that would also count for: Huntress, Deathslinger, Trickster, Sprintrap, Houndmaster, Blight, Nurse, when I think about it almost every killer. Dodging blight rushes, huntress hatches, doctors shocks or even a popular killer like weskers dashes (dodging killer powers) is main part of the game so you are saying that all killers are not fair and fun.
And using ptb twins as example is unviable since this never came live, judgment did for good reasons.
Hold up now we are FINALLY getting somewhere in this conversation. You've just said that PTB twins is not the save as judgement as judgement is easier to dodge than twins. Okay so according to you there IS a limit as to how powerful you can make a ranged projectile and the ability to dodge it design wise. So why is judgements fair but not twins? Any reasons other than "It feels fairer because I played a couple games and it seemed good!"?.
Okay then how is anyone meant to take you seriously. Your entire argument is that "I was able to dodge the power when I played against a couple of these killers?". But when I played against ptb twins I was able to dodge the power as well! So what's the difference??
You can't even prove it at all because you won't custom, you won't show me video evidence, you won't do anything to back up your claims. Typical forums chatter, someone who's quite clearly inexperienced at the game and doesn't understand how dbd works and how it's balanced, using their own anecdotal experience in low mmr to justify a killer they have no clue how to play at a high level.
To your last point, so blight and nurse's counterplay is dodging the rushes and blinks? Why did these killers get nerfed then? According to you they already have enough counterplay because you can "see and dodge" the ability? Such a primitive understanding of game balance, it's why this game's gone to #########.
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@Hopi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116296#Comment_4116296
the fair thing to do would be to end games immediately when a survivor dc's?
No. The survivors play as a team, which means that they have a shared responsibility toward a favorable result for the survivors. So if one of them decided to abandon the team by DC'ing, then that's on that survivor. They willingly and knowingly disadvantage their own team. It's certainly not the killer's fault.
The only widely accepted reason for DC'ing is if there's some kind of real-life emergency going on. But a lot of survivor players DC because they don't like how the trial is going. And that's not why you should DC.That's the whole reason that the DC-penalty exists. And if survivor players really are under the impression that DC'ing a trial on a regular basis, thereby abandoning their team, is acceptable behavour, then maybe the minimum DC-penalty should be raised to 30 minutes. The whole idea of the DC-penalty is to discourage players from DC'ing while the trial is not yet over. So maybe 5 or 10 or 15 minutes is simply not enough.
So we should just punish the team if their teammate dc's instead of just ending the game? Whereas the killer can selfishly leave the game as they wish as the game doesn't punish others if a killer does this. How is it fair if I'm a survivor and my killer DC's, like you said, that's not my fault? Why should my game immediately end?
To make it clear i don't think you should DC frequently and i don't think it's good for the game. But we need to look at the reasons WHY people DC, especially more against certain killers or in certain games.
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@HexFelix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116293#Comment_4116293
“Imagine if i said "stop crying and learn to play agaimst it" about old ds, old dh, old circle of healing, sprint burst etc. How would you feel?“
Crying about old perks that had no counterplay at all isn’t the same as Judgment who has counterplay by reacting and using your eyes and ears. Judgment isn’t a free win if you pick her while old dh was „press e for free distance“ for example.
“Everykiller in history has has up and down sides??? No ones debating it they are debating that its unfun, unfair and insanely overpowered. Nurse has plsnty of downsides does that mean she's not good then?“
Yeah every killer has up and downsides, it’s just that judgments strength is more justified because it’s harder to learn properly and has no mobility and is slower than most killers. Nurse has only one downside wich is her speed but the massive upside of decent mobility and ignoring all loops and turning the game into a different one when she is in the trial.
“Infact you're just proving my point that the people defending judgement's design don't even know what they are defending.“
I actually proved you are wrong in an earlier response where I said that in my survivor experience against judgment all I need to do was react, use my eyes and ears and that I had fun facing it. And no i didn’t played against baby judgments, the ones I faced were decent to good and knew what they were doing.
If you want to cry about the new killer who’s counterplay isn’t described in 3 words like „dodge the axe“ then make your own post since this is about Judgment and Pyramid in comparison.But that's just your opinion on the perks and the judgement. What if from my perspective and others these perks have counterplay by using game knowledge and game sense but the judgement has no killer? The point is you are asserting things without proof based on your own pre-conceptions.
To your next point:
A: Judgement is not hard. Why are people stomping on this killer within its first week of release if it's hard? And people already thinkk it's S tier? You are confusing weird and different to play with "hard to play". Blight is undeniably hard to play, and it took people months, if not YEARS to find his true potential and realise he was an S tier killer.
B: Once again you are saying that if a killer has no mobility then it's fair game to make the rest of their power as strong as you want, because you think that mobility is the only thing that matters or the most important thing (not true). Nurse has horrendous horizontal map mobility, slower than a trapper. Does that mean she's not the best killer in the game? (or maybe second best now).
So in your few games you've played against this killer against people who clearly don't know what they are doing on it based on your description, since they let you just react to all of their attacks, you've decided this killer is thus fair? Okay I had a few fun and fair games against PTB twins it's 100% balanced then and we should add that back to the game. Come demonstrate this fun, fair and reliable counterplay you are talking about in a custom against MY judgement, see how you like that?
Ah yes just look at the ability and dodge it. That's NOT sufficient evidence of fun, fair gameplay and counter play. I'll use the PTB twins example again, just dodge the victor attack that's the counter play, therefore the ptb twins is balanced.
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@NordSahne said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116282#Comment_4116282
I am not even talking about that, all I am saying is play whoever you want, when someone starts the game, then they have no rights to just give up because of certain things, you can always criticize, valid and constructive criticism is good.
When a killer DCS then guess what, the match ends, the 4 survivors can just queue immediately and the killer should probably step back for a few minutes to cool down or stop for the day. When a survivor dces however or just gives up and is afk or whatever, then it's just a punishment for the other survivors, imagine a solo q player that is the first one getting hooked and giving up within a minute (that definitely does happen btw), the other 3 survivors are just screwed and gonna have a worse match, if a killer dces then nothing happens, no one else is getting punished or has to go through a potentially impossible to win match, everyone can just go next and queue for the next match.Okay so based on what you've said the fair thing to do would be to end games immediately when a survivor dc's? Just how games end immediately when a killer dc's?
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@HexFelix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116281#Comment_4116281
im not the one who is crying and not bringing good points though
Care to respond to a single thing I said?
You havn't told me why ANYTHING I've said is wrong? Infact you're just proving my point that the people defending judgement's design don't even know what they are defending.
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@NordSahne said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115854#Comment_4115854
Well, yes, if you load up the game as survivor, you kinda have to accept that you could get any kind of killer, same way killers have to accept the perks survivors can bring, you either say no, I am not willing to take the risk and don't start the game, or you actually play the game, you can still criticize things, but loading up the game willingly, knowing there are things you "hate" or what not and then refusing to play, or being entitled to think it shouldn't be that way is just a sign of being stupid and own fault, you load up the game, so play the game, if you don't like it, then why do you play the game if something bothers you so badly, that you don't want to play?
I played during chess merchant and had actual chess merchant matches, but guess what, I knew about it, still started the game and actually played it, even if the match was unfun, that is PART OF THE GAME, you can still not like something, but you don't have to be a selfish person and just give up, because you feel like you are entitled to something. People should have either stopped playing during that time or not given up, then we might would have a functional SM right now, the one thing people should be entitled about is a functional game, like functional killer powers and not buggy messes.But what if I like every killer other than judgment and the first? I'm just not allowed to play then?
Why do bad killers get to DC all the time and no one complains about this?
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@HexFelix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116170#Comment_4116170
Stop crying and learn playing against it. In my survivor matches against Judgment, it was pretty fun dodging the ability. And i didn’t get snipped one time on a gen because in comparison Ro streamers I don’t have a chat to look at and I actually use my eyes and ears. It’s always the same, Killer comes out, is strong, survivors who are to lazy to learn counterplay cry for nerfs.
„Yeah so your saying that it doesn't matter how op someone’s power is, as long as they don't have mobility they are balanced and skilful.“
I never said that I just said that judgment has its up and downsides
Imagine if i said "stop crying and learn to play agaimst it" about old ds, old dh, old circle of healing, sprint burst etc. How would you feel?
Everykiller in history has has up and down sides??? No ones debating it they are debating that its unfun, unfair and insanely overpowered. Nurse has plsnty of downsides does that mean she's not good then?
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116239#Comment_4116239
People are rarely using sprint burst now because lithe is just the next easiest option. I guarantee if Dead Hard for distance was back you would rarely see any Lithes. Does that make Lithe bad? No it does not. Now that people have to actually think about using their sprint burst and not save it to use it in the killers face with infinite value people don't like it. It's still VERY good for pre-running. And reassurance literally saves 30 seconds of hook time if the killer is dead set on confirming a second hook stage/kill. If the killer doesn't camp to confirm a second/death hook? Well congrats the killer is playing un-optimally and think they can afford going for more chases. As for auto didact.. do you ever use it? 60% healing progress for ONE skill check anywhere with the only downside being your first heal is slightly slower since on average you get at least one skill check per heal so its FAR from "the worst perk in the game" I'm sure MANY would debate there's plenty of others.
I personally don't run exhaustion as I prefer my safety of my teammates off hook and myself. Unlike a lot of current DBD players I actually know how to play loops and conserve tiles to their fullest against the majority of the killer roster as you don't need exhaustion perks vs the majority. When I die is usually either one of three things, I genuinely mess up, my teammates just aren't the best or the killer is nurse or blight.
I implore you. Please tell me how you rightfully earn the strongest survivor perks in the game for how powerful they can be. Examples being Shoulder the Burden, Resurgence or Plot Twist.So should we nerf lithe now that it's the easiest exhaustion option?
No autodidact is not good full stop. Botany is flat better in every situation. Good luck getting to the 60% healing progress amount before the game has been decided. It doesn't even work on self heals and can literally do nothing if you don't get a skillcheck. It is universally agreed upon that it's a horrific perk. Fun? Idk maybe for you.
Saying you don't run exhaustion perks is yet another crazy take. Exhaustion perks are by far some of the best perks in the game because they are often the only way to stall chase against strong killers. Uhhh 80% of the killer roster will ######### on you in chase if they are good at the killer and you don't have an exhaustion. I can prove it to you right now in a custom if you'd like. So if you die to a killer that's not nurse or blight your teammates suck or you made some terrible mistakes? Crazy once again I can immediately disprove this, get your best 4man to play against me and i'll even play a mid killer against that.
Ressurgance you have to be near a hook to use it? If that's not earning it what counts as earning it??? Pop pain res dms grim all you have to do is hook someone? How is that any different? Shoulder you need to literally unhook someone? Plot twist only works if you combo it with ds/deli or other perks.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116163#Comment_4116163
By moving around before it reaches you? Like you see the light, don't head towards the light. Imagne another game with a big ol death laser from the sky, how do you not get hit by it?
Theres been judgements who curve, theres been one whos been able to return it back to them repeatedly, theres been a judgement whos used that weird add on that stops the beam on solids. Not a single one has been able to land it ON TOP me because im constantly moving. Direct on the dot target isn't easy. And honestly I don't think you yourself have faced a decent Judgement because looking at everything so far, you really don't seem like the dodging type. Yes this is me being petty cause you constantly assume things. I'll own up to it. Doesn't even make me wrong which is better.
It maters in the sense that judgement's power ISN'T designed for those fast pace action shooters. It matches the survivors mobility pretty well considering what i was expecting from bhvr.
I didn't say playing trapper isn't fun i said PLAYING AGAINST
Thats currently the only time you've actually been correct. Welp regardless of my mistake there ARE still people who enjoy facing trapper due to the paranoia caused by said traps. You've lumped up everyone together. Me personally, IDC as long as it isn't the same thing for 5 games in a rowish.
Wait not one has been able to land it ontop of you did you say?
Once again I can change that right now if you would like to play a custom against me, you clearly need to play against a semi competent judgement player.
######### r u on? Judgements power literally could hit a COD player it goes that insanely fast. It's designed for a fast past action shooter but the survivors move like snails with horrific movement.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116229#Comment_4116229
Lets see. Sprint burst (still good), lithe, Resurgence, Reassurance, Botany, Auto Didact which is an ultra sleeper pick, Plot Twist which is just great anti-slug and self heal, anti-heal nerfs etc.
What can killers get for free regression wise, Lay Waste, Call of Brine and Overcharge. In terms of time efficiency survivor has been buffed majorly inadvertently or not.Reassurance you need to waste time getting close to the hook. Autodidact is the worst perk in the game so this has to be complete irony. Lithe requires you to vault a window.
If sb is still good why does no-one use it anymore, do you use it anymore?
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116228#Comment_4116228
It was changed so it could address its actual purpose. They wanted to give a tool for specifically tunneling. If a killer is coming back to the hook, The elusive letting you throw off the tracking is a great tool to counter THAT whereas before they were just tossing on more and more BT time and being told its not enough to counter tunneling. They buffed it from 10 to 15, was told it wasnt helping address tunneling so they went a different direction. They played with the idea of elusive and doing things like delaying the unhook notification in a PTB awhile back specifically to target returning back to hook behavior.
Sidenote… I really have no clue how Artist is one of your examples here. Serious question, how is she at all any good at tunneling specifically? Unknown has his teleport thing which im guessing is why you mentioned him and Slinger can shoot you and wait abit before the hit… No clue why Artist was mentioned.
Unkown was mentioned becuase now you can shoot off hook and shoot again by just hiding a bit before the survivor looks at you too much and loses the weakened status effect. Artist because the killer likes to play defensively and 15seconds of bt and haste lets you get anywhere on the map you want ruining artists gameplan.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116225#Comment_4116225
So you selectively read? I said MOST perks not all.
By that logic survivors have to earn most of their perks??? You need to unhook to make perks like we'll make it, fast track and deli work. Pop all the gens for adren to work, fault or jump off a height for lithe or balanced to work, do gens for blastmine/wiretap/chemical trap etc to work
Literally the worst argument you could have picked.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116195#Comment_4116195
I think your confusing how well elusive is for avoiding chases altogether rather than just counting killer mid-chase. Unless the killer is at the hook when you got out, you running off and not leaving scratchmarks is VERY good for ditching a killer who returns to hooks after hearing the notification. Theres no sound, bloodpools or anything to give an idea to which direction you went. Thats the idea behind elusive. If the killer WAS at the hook and you got unhooked right at his presence, you still have 44 meters of travel time which is typically more than enough to reach a pallet. The extra 5 seconds wasnt really needed to reach anything.
Then you've clearly never played at a semi-decent level if you think those 5 seconds meant nothing. 5 seconds was a gamechanger against killers like unkown, artist, slinger etc. Literally a game deciding difference. The elusive only works if the killer is far enough away from the unhook and fails to track down the survivor. Sometimes its really good if a killer is far away and decides to go crossmap back to tunnel yes, but far less reliable than 15 seconds of bt which was insanely and undeniably powerful. If it wasn't more powerful, why did they nerf it then?
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115807#Comment_4115807
The roles aren't comparable. Survivors need much more fine tuning than simply adjusting a single number on a killer. Buffing survivor buffs survivor as a WHOLE like how every survivor got +10 seconds to hook stages a while ago which might not seem much at first but EVERY hook means every survivor can stick on that gen just a little bit more. Every survivor perk getting buffed is not that same as a killer getting buff especially as its more inherent that killers have to earn most of their super powerful perks while survivors simply get it for existing or getting unhooked.
Your eyes are clouded in Bias. Just say you think killers deserve buffs more than survivor. Sorry i missed the part where killers have to earn their perks like corrupt ruin etc.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116181#Comment_4116181
You said "what about all the general killer buffs". Maybe im missing something because the last one of those I found was the increased base kick regression 2 and a half years ago...which was tied in with the 8 regression limit. I think the last time they gave a straight buff was 6.1.0 over 4 years ago.
As for the basekit BT thing, thats not a strait nerf but rather a side grade. You lost 5 seconds of the BT part while getting elusive.
Many maps have been shrunk or reworked recently beneficially for killer, and these changes buff all of the killers.
Pallet changes also are beneficial for more killers than not.
Basekit BT change is overall a buff for most killers. 15 Seconds of BT was super OP and hard countered anykillers without insane mobility. Elusive status effect only hurts certain killers like dracula or spirit.