Withered8
Withered8
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116171#Comment_4116171
When was the last time we got a general killer buff? Perk buffs and nerfs happen on both sides, typically on the same patches even. The very patch that vigil for example was nerfed, theres also killer perk buffs and nerfs as well as survivor perk buffs and nerfs.
I just said overarching buffs aren't done for the reasons i gave. They did nerf basekit bt though this patch which is a pretty big change. Killers had what perks other than thrill nerfed most recently?? Thrill nerf was pretty much irrelevant as well doesn't change what makes the perk so used. SB nerfs on the other hand literally killed the perk.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115948#Comment_4115948
Yeah, there's plenty of those too. My point is your very rarely going to have overarching "killer buffs" that actually effect all killers. Sitting there with some kind of scorecard demanding a survivor buff everytime an individual killer gets buffed is not the same thing. Your math ain't matching.
Sidenote... anytime a new chapter gets released, it should be EXPECTED that there is going to be tweaks soon after. The devs are monitoring the effectiveness and popularity of everything they just released. Its going to be the same thing with the NEXT chapter in a couple months too. We dont need to mark the metaphorical scorecard every time new content is tweaked after its PTB.
What about all the general killer buffs, survivor perk nerfs and killer perk buffs we keep getting? Overarching buffs aren't done often ofcourse cause they usually unfairly buff the S tiers more than the C tiers.
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@HexFelix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115947#Comment_4115947
It’s not what he said, he just said judgment has her exile and beam but has no movement ability and is 4.4 m/s, making the killer really on the players skill and power use. Using the exile to negate surv perks also comes with a trade of where you can’t use any hook perks like pop, pain res ect. Judgment should be looked over the next weeks but crying immediately isn’t the solution.
Yeah so your saying that it doesn't matter how op someone’s power is, as long as they don't have mobility they are balanced and skilful.
Judgement doesn't just need to be "looked at", It needs to be removed. It doesn't belong in dbd and feels nothign like dbd. It feels like a PvE game as killer and as survivor you're playing dodgeball on a timer knowing that you will just get hit no matter what you can do.
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@SkeletonDance said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115898#Comment_4115898
I know she's still strong, but as you said the fact that everything she do is slow and clunky makes me not want to play her
Okay you can tweak her and fix this WITHOUT BUFFING her though, we don't need to reach for the buff hammer immediately.
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@ThatRyanB said:
Alright folks, let's try and keep the "us vs. them" conflict to a minimum here. While it's an understandable product of asymmetrical gameplay that there will be opposing perspectives on buffs and nerfs, we value feedback from all angles and don't want anyone to feel like their POV isn't an important part of informing changes that are made to the game.
I've seen some great comments here about how the curve window feels now vs. 10.1.1 and will be sure to pass these along to the team, but please do keep sharing your experiences with the change here (both as Killer and Survivor). Tweaking numbers to find a sweet spot that feels fair for both sides can take time, so just know that we're following your feedback!
The sweet spot that feels fair is deleting this killer. No amount of curve window is fair as it makes the beam undodgable, but all these terrible killer players will tell you otherwise because they are power hungry freaks. It's literally NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST AT ALL if they have half a brain. It doesn't even feel like you're playing dbd, it feels like some PvE slop. You added thanos into the game and wonder why survivors are leaving and dcing games in droves.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115798#Comment_4115798
since then PH has lost his ability to hard tunnel with impunity. PH could just reliably camp a cage with an attack ready and frame perfect snipe the unhook and insta kill
He can still tunnel pretty bloody easily, you just have to hit through a 10 second bt. Still no DS or anything.
It's not as if people decided this killer was weak when he lost that ability.
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@Hoopme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115829#Comment_4115829
Yes sure this patch but the patch buff before they certainly gutted Sprint burst and Vigil.
So quit trying to act like only one side gets hit with Nerfs
What did they do the patch before? Buff doc, unknown, demo, mm? That patch you talking about:?
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115892#Comment_4115892
Is the beam instantaneously landing on survivors? You have to move it just like any game where you aim. If you manage to repeatedly drop the beam on top of their heads thats skill full, the survivors being dumb (mistake or otherwise), or a mix of both. Also the things you list are knowledge, not skills.
DBD is a pvp asymmetrical whos literally in its own category, it gets a variety of things, like Deathslinger has a litteral harpoongun, xenos tail acts like a midrange spear, Artist's crows act like cannons that go through walls. Judgements power is designed to hit people at a distance, its not overly complicated. Survivors can also move a lot sooner than the last second which contributes to "dodging". Do you know how many people simply try to move at the last second and get hit?
And some people DO find it fun by herding people into their doom, making painful surprises to survivors, or simply the thrill of winning despite using what everyone calls weak. Do these people not exist to you? Fun is subjective, you are not who decides whats fun for others.
As i said, quote me where I said those words. Im not letting you put words in my mouth, you'll loose fingers as my teeth are sharp.
How exactly can survivors stop you from just dropping it on their head? Have you been able to replicate this on survivor against a good judgement? Likely not. I don't think you've even ever played survivor against a half decent one of these killers.
Okay dbd is a pvp assymetrical? ######### does that have to do with what i said regarding survivor movement mechanics?
I didn't say playing trapper isn't fun i said PLAYING AGAINST, bro you keep misreading everything I'm saying and arguing about things I'm not arguing about.
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@CosmicScarab said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115853#Comment_4115853
The First: "Worldbreaker Phase Two duration decreased from 60 seconds to 50 seconds." That is a nerf.
Jason got all of his best addons nerfed.
Nurse got one of her best addons nerfed, yes.
Addon nerfs are killer nerfs, whether you like it or not, especially when those addons are by far the most popular addons for that killer.
Ghoul: Reduced the maximum Leap distance from 16 metres to 14 metres.
Reduced the Countdown duration from 45 seconds to 40 seconds.
Reduced the Perfectly-timed Grab additive from 15 seconds to 10 seconds.
Kagune Leap now enters a cool-down equal to a single Token usage if it is not already on cool-down after The Ghoul breaks a Pallet.
Increased the amount of Kagune Leap Tokens lost after breaking a pallet if it is not already on cool-down from 1 to 2.
Halved the Hinder duration inflicted on Survivors that are targeted with Kagune Leap prior to a Leap Vault from 1 second to 0.5 seconds.
You are obviously not interested in a good faith discussion if you will plug your ears and ignore anything that goes against this narrative you have created in your head that says BHVR despises survivors and only nerfs them and buffs killers.
I don't agree with how BHVR is balancing the game, but even I can recognize that they are not exclusively targeting survivors with nerfs, especially after the pallet density update. Some killers get nerfs, some get buffs, just like some survivor perks get nerfs and some get buffs.
It seems pretty obvious to me that Judgement is under-performing in the hands of the average player, which is what BHVR in general balances the game around, which is why they got this buff. Most Judgements I've seen barely can even land a beam and get 4-3 outed.You failed to mention that the first is LITERALLY STRONGER NOW because he got some INSANE addon buffs.
Nurse nerf is literally irrelavent.
Jason nerfs are also incredibly minor and don't change his power level pretty much at all..
Ghoul nerfs hurt sure.
Now do the killer buffs, and compare how much more impactful they are + how much more common they are.
This is ludicrous logic you've mentioned at the end.
Nurse and Blight on release MEGA underpeformed in the hands of average players. Does that mean they weren't the best killers in the game and incredibly OP? We all know how much these killers have caused controversy and received nerfs throughout the years what makes you think that this killer is any different?
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115896#Comment_4115896
What math? If your looking at individual killer buffs, its going to look overwhelming because there's so many different killers. 40 different buffs to 40 different killers is still 1 each. What math are you referring to?
If there's 40 killers to buff there should be 40 killers to nerf then no?
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115798#Comment_4115798
As people usually completely overreact to any PTB change. If i remember correctly, in the PH PTB his cages didn't have any form of anti-tunnel, as they do now. Even if he want he wouldn't be able to tunnel as hard as people said.
Its fine for Judgment because she is a low mobility killer who lose access to part of the killer meta in trade of being empowered - negating part of the survivor meta perks with it. She would be much worse if wasn't for exile, needing another form of slowdown/chase power as secondary.
So if you don't have hyper mobility your killer is never good? What rubbish mobility is only ONE tool of many to determine a killers strength. Nurse doesn't have good longitudinal map mobility, infact a trapper can get from one side of the map to the other faster than a nurse.
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@SkeletonDance said:
Bro I do hope that they will not overnerf her like Krasue. She was overbuffed on release and then they did too much with the nerfs.
Krasue is still an A tier killer bro. She's clunky and feels bad to play yes but she's not a bad killer. It's the same as twins.
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@Oputeev_Stas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115815#Comment_4115815
There have been very few survivor buffs lately and the last ones were years ago. Meanwhile, the devs buff killers like crazy, showing clear favoritism, they’ve effectively destroyed Sprint, Vigil, Dead Hard, and post-hook Endurance, whereas killer perks keep getting buffed look at STBFL, which was buffed for no reason without even considering the new Judgment perk that constantly switches the obsession, making it easy to stack up 8 tokens and keep them forever (just look at Hens's videos). Killers have tons of broken builds with addons, but what do survivors have? Nothing but useless perks which is exactly why everyone runs the same ones, plus useless fog vials, maps, keys and cross exam that got nuked too because of killer mains
Yeah if you do the maths it is objectively quite clear which side as gotten the better changes recently, just add them up. We've gone from a heavily survivor sided game around release to a heavily killer sided game, yet when the survivors have the power its problematic and must be changed, but when it's killer favoured these people go "nah it's not a problem just get better!" Gaslighting 101.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115855#Comment_4115855
Good timing to lead the beam to where the survivor is heading, good timing to get them during/before/after an animation lock, good timing to get a lucky shot. "Good timing" is so vague that you can pull out alot not just "good timing to drop it on their head".
Regardless it seems even you think the beam is undodgable if you drop it directly ontop, which you can do literally evertime.
Yea no. First and most importantly, you CAN'T do it literally every time. You know this as well so i do not know why you type so. Go try this yourself with a survivor straight up next to you and running around. Second because the judgement is actually aiming and following a moving survivor thats their skill against the survivor. The survivor has the ability to move BEFORE the light is above them and if their close enough when the judgement starts charging…well as I said go try it yourself. Thats actual skill to make sure it hits and its neither easy nor guaranteed you get it less the survivor doesn't try and dodge. Sorta how PvP works.
…Woooow someones conceited. Trapper is unfun for YOU. There are people who like Trapper. Me personally? i just want a little something for him that keeps him him. I dont mind having to look for traps CAUSE THATS WHAT YOU DO AGAINST HIM. Like…counterplay mate. Theres counterplay. Your entitled to your opinions, but let me tell ya, Judgement aint in the top 5 for me.
I mean, i can often enough dodge effective point blank because im moving. Like, if you recall theres a delay before the damage comes in which gives ya time to…ya know… keep moving? Change direction at last moments? Like…idk how to explain to move around to make it hard to hit any better man. You can't dodge 100% of the time cause your human, I get that, but its not like its completely undodgeable even point blank. And even if its "hard" doesn't make it impossible.
See, YOUR definitions confuse me cause you talk like its so obvious that everyone follows your definitions. But i don't follow your definitions. I would very much call ol 3-gen merchant OP cause if you can hold the game for 40+ minutes doing jack all despite the survivors attempts…thats ****ed up. Doesn't matter if it was beatable, thats slowing the game to a crawl despite 4 people trying to get things done. Id call that OP and unfun. Aint mutually exclusive. Being able to get guaranteed downs from a relatively easy stab as old legions? I'm calling that OP as well as unfun, and i liked old legion bar the moonwalking bs. YOU seem to think a beam that requires skill and precision with survivors being able to react (HERE SPECIFICALLY meaning "before the column of light reaches you and drops death") to it OP.
So you're saying you would nerf uninteractive things?
Quote me where I said that specifically. I'll wait. Don't worry, by the time i wake up you'll still be looking.
Once again pointing ur cursor at a survivor and pressing m1 is NOT skillful at all. There's limited map knowledge, tile knowledge, pallet and window knowledge, hook knowledge, or most fundamentals that other killers have to follow required to use this killer. That is literally 70% of a killers skill right there. Judgement has to worry about one thing, and that's pointing his mouse at a survivor. Huntress needs to worry about a BILLION other things as well as pointing her mouse at a survivor.
DBD is not a fast pace action shooter, judgements power is designed to hit people who can slide and jump and sprint and do all sorts of incredibly fast actions. Survivors are stuck with big clunky character models with pretty awful movement and terrible acceleration/deceleration and directional change. You need to consider this when you constantly say "just dodge".
No most people find trappers powerdesign unfun, and the only reason people don't find the killer itself unfun to play against is that it's so weak that you can often stomp it which is fun. You probably find trapper fun because he's weak and probably rarely snowballs or gets kills on you or feels unfair cause his power is so bad. Does not mean the same thing as a fun power.
You said you would nerf old legion, skullmerchant etc. Or would you not? You tell me.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115780#Comment_4115780
Ohh please, quote where you explicitly said THAT one to me.
You have said its 98 percent un-dodgeable via fancy angling, timing, positioning. You said you can reliably use the beam up close and in chase. You practically say it only takes a decent judgement player.
Not. Once. Did you say you drop them straight on the survivors, as in that big ol pillar shown while charging landing on top of them and firing. And even after that, im doubtful you can do so reliably as survivors can still move and stay OUT of the pillar. But the option to prove me wrong is still on the table.
As a side note, you've ousted yourself to not reading previous things as I SAID drop them on top of survivors before:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115040#Comment_4115040
Strange how you'd bring it up now ain't it?
Depends on factors. Does it just reveal? Does it Damage? Does it "infect"? Does it build a meter? Theres SO many things to take into account that it wouldn't be cut and dry answers.
You'd lose that bet. I think most are fine. Like outta 40, it litterally only trapper i think is underpowered. Some could use some spicing up to make them interesting (merchant) or more like the movies (meyers) but overall? Killers be fine.
Dude if your going by "ignoring chase skill completely" need I remind you what happens when you land in a beartrap? Whats "broken" to you isn't universal ya know. You think dodging pyramid head's punishment is extremely difficult, I can dodge about 7/10 without thinking hard. Record is apparently 13 while tipsy.
Of course a killer can be OP, but right now? Nothin OP. I was around for the REALLY OP things like instant BNP, infinites, and the infamous 3 gen merchants and knights. Completely silent spirit (that was actually kinda fun to face as it provided actual scares), old ruin/undying/tinkerer combo, infinite mend and moonwalker legions. NOTHING currently in game compares to anything then. YOU seem to think judgement is op, I see it as different from the usual killers.
What do you think good timing means? It means timing the beam as it's directly ontop of survivors. Regardless it seems even you think the beam is undodgable if you drop it directly ontop, which you can do literally evertime.
And that's why trapper has to stay as the wprst killer in the game, because he's really unfun and would be so much more unfun if he was actually a good killer, but he's not. Judgement on the otherhand is arguably the best killer, which in COMBINATION with his ease of execution and anti-fun mechanics is why its so toxic.
Pyramid heads main strength is baiting his shot not actuslly shooting it. If you hold your power in the ground snd get close to ppl its unreactable thst way. Ofcourse a bot phead shooting max range is dodgable.
I think you are confusing unfun with OP. Old skull merchsnt 3gen wasn't OP, it was quite beatable with a good 4man stack. It was just incredibly unfun. Moonwalking legion also wasn't OP, it was uninteractive. So you're saying you would nerf uninteractive things? What about knight then for being uninteractive?
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@NordSahne said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115483#Comment_4115483
If you dislike it so much, then maybe this is not the game for you… that is exactly the entitlement OP was talking about
This post itself reeks of entitlement. "YOU MUST PLAY AGAINST ME NO MATTER WHAT I PLAY OR UR ENTITLED". The irony.
So should everyone have stopped playing when old skull merchant existed? Cause everyone found it unfun?
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@CosmicScarab said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115815#Comment_4115815
Perks: Coulrophobia, Thrill of the Hunt, Nowhere to Hide,
Killers: Knight, Jason, Blight, Nurse, First, Ghoul,
Those are just some of the somewhat recent nerfs off the top of my head. Survivors have also gotten pallet density, which is arguably one of the biggest buffs in the game. It isn't like it is exclusively survivors getting nerfed.First literally got buffed not nerfed?
I think the blight nerf was a terrible change but is in line with their nerfing hard killers and buffing easy killers philosphy.
One OP exhaustion addon of Jason's got nerfed, and its still stupidly strong and does the job.
Nurse got nerfed how? Her lunge addon? That only nerfs horrid nurses?
Ghoul got nerfed how?
Knight got nerfed yes.
Now shall we go over all the killers who got buffed?
Vecna 2, vecna, demo, unknown, wesker, judgement, doc, singularity. And these killers got whole basekit buffs not just addon nerfs. Only base kit nerfs recently are blight and knight.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115829#Comment_4115829
There were a mix of both perk buffs and nerfs. Its important to look at BOTH otherwise its easy to feel like your just getting hit by nerfs with every balance pass. Were gonna see a whole lot more of that with this upcoming big perk update. I saw plenty of ppl do that when Jason's deputy badge and sauna rock both got nerfed while completely ignoring the addons that were buffed.
You are correct in principle, both should be looked at. But objectively speaking survivor has been nerfed and killer has been buffed far more than the other way around recently. This recent update, sb was nerfed big, deli nerfed big, vigil gutted, in return for what a useless adren buff? Basekit bt also got reverted and thus nerfed, killers lost 2% on thrill which is rather negligable, considering they got a couple of new fantastic perks and a super op killer, whilst survivors got 3 useless perks.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115815#Comment_4115815
Mostly just addon nerfs, which are usually mixed in with buffs to other addons. BHVR doesnt tend to JUST dish out nerfs...
They sure did just dish out nerfs to survivor this patch, and a whole new insane killer with new buffs.
Every killer addon nerf of recent you can find I can find a buffed addon to match it.
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Nurse cannot hit you ACROSS the map.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115807#Comment_4115807
Knight got a nerf just last week
Okay true that's one. Got any more examples?
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115687#Comment_4115687
killer never gets touched or nerfed? survivors never get buffed? why are we lying or pretending we have no grasp of reality?
How have survivors been buffed recently? How have killers been nerfed recently?
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@esarraf said:
It is hilarious how they release an incredibly broken killer that is slightly hard to play then just go and make them easy to play. Like honestly maybe a contender for nurse rn with how strong they are.
Exactly right. He's insanely easy to play for how STRONG he is, think of other S tier's like nurse and blight and billy. These killers are THOUSANDS of times harder to play for their respective power level as it should be. This killer is probably better than nurse as it stands if he's allowed access to aura perks. At least nurse has exploitable weaknesses on certain maps that this killer just does not give a fk about.
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@lovlor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115794#Comment_4115794
I can't say the very detail of it but a developer in the forum once said something like "these numbers can be adjusted by one click" , and now it's almost tripled compared to ptb
And yet all we head from the "community" and "influencers" upon release was that "THIS KILLER WAS GUTTED SINCE PTB HOW COULD THEY DO THIS HE'S TERRIBLE NOW". And because the devs listen to these complete morons we are now in a spot where he's probably the best killer to ever exist in the game full stop. Better than ptb twins arguably.
I bet you they won't be so hasty to undo these buffs because you'll have players like tru3talent and all the other terrible players screaming "HOW COULD YOU NERF HIM". You give these people an INCH and they'll run a mile. They are more scared of these people with insane influence over game balancing than actually being concerned about PROPER game balance.
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@Rickprado said:
I'm not a PH player but after playing Judgment makes me wonder why PH don't have Torment basekit on M2. Having to force a survivor to run into the razors to get your secondary power feels silly, specially now that PH Cages have basekit BT and the tunnel potential is far less than it was years ago.
Because when he used to have this on the ptb there was a consensus that it was far too strong for tunneling and applying pressure. Now we've decided its fine for judgement because 'reasons'?
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@HexFelix said:
I’m someone who plays different killers and I noticed how similar the judgment and pyramid head are.
in comparison:Basically:
Judgement is 4.4 m/s
PH is 4.6 m/s
The judgment has a beam thats hard to control close range but can hit anywhere on the map and inflict heresy and damages
PH has a 10 meters range attack that goes through walls and can hit multiple survivors
Judgment can send heresy survivors into the exile and other survs have to free them via these statues on the mapPH can send torment effected survivors to cages wich spawn on the map
Ph has a trail that inflicts torment when survivors step on them
Heresy slowly gets removed over time after performing the action on the statue (and also gives old ruin skill checks on generators when having it)
Torment gets removed from getting out of a cage or rescue a caged survivor
I’m not a PH main, I sometimes play him (playing like half the roster) but this seems like a big gap between two similar killers. Judgment might be slower but her power has unlimited range and inflicts heresy while Ph torment only triggers with survivors walking over the paths he sets. Judgment can play games without hooks and survivors have to do something against heresy while PH cages are sometimes just there and torment does nothing (besides leaving a little trial behind infected survivors). Is this really fair for PH?
I mean Judgment is slower and her power is way harder to use but the potential is way higher.
In my opinion: Judgment is fine as it is but PH could use some changes.I think PHs range attack is fine, it’s easier to use with limited range.
What I think could get some changes are the trails and the torment effect.
Maybe they could make it that PHs range attack inflicts the effect? They could make the trail last infinitely (since it’s a limited resource and the latest trails disappear when making more than the limit)? Or that torment actually does something while it’s on survivors?
(Would also be funny if the toxic punishing mechanic from judgment would also be implemented for ph but inflicted torment in his case since both killers punish survivors)
I would like to hear some suggestions and opinions from PH mains.This is absolutely crazy. We power creep a killer with a new one and the solution is not to stop the powercreeping, but to INCREASE the power creeping? When does it end? I agree that p-head is massively outclassed by judgement, but its not because he's bad, no one thought he was bad until judgement was released. It's because judgement is quite clearly OP. When do we decide to stop permanently buffing and powercreeping killers? Because unlike killer, there is no powercreeping going on in the survivor side, so at some point a reckoning will come and killer ques will continue to get even worse than they already are.
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@ninjabsbx said:
I am genuinely baffled by the decision to buff Judgment after the previous patch. Judgment was already in a good spot! I think buffing Divine Light once again was just too much, 0.6 seconds was already in the perfect spot, but 0.8 is way too much. The curve on Non zealous mode and the exile rescue changes are good and can stay as is but the curve buff on zealous mode needs to be reverted asap, or we make Judgment overtuned like Singularity is atm, and I really don't want Judgment to get nerfed to feel like ######### like Krasue
HAHAHAHAHAHHAA They are Actively TRYING to kill this game. These devs are on a power trip to create the most broken killer they could possibly ever make. 0.8 SECONDS OF CURVING is absolutely ridiculous, whoever designed and balanced this killer needs to be FIRED RIGHT NOW.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115578#Comment_4115578
No I went and told you how the joke went but then had to spoil it explaining everything to you.
Very well, go into the wild fog and record, uninterrupted, rounds where you showcase HOW it's "98%" impossible to dodge judgements beam with all the fancy angling of yours. Make sure those hits DO NOT involve the three (3) listed scenarios. As a reminder:
- If they're in a long stretch of narrow hallway.
- If they're in an animation lock.
- If you drop the beam on top of them.
You also claim it's relatively easy to use the beam up close, show us your skills then. Give a show of mixing close range and far snipes. Beams only, no m1s as that doesn't prove how easy it is right? Keep in mind the above.
Now the hardest part is proof that the survivors are practically unable to dodge. As I claim that decent survivors who are paying attention can dodge relatively easy bar those 3 situations, you need to prove that decent survivors CAN'T do so. Make sure your audience SEES how it's impossible without those.
If you REALLY want to prove to me and the audience your right show us as both survivor and killer. Show how you as a survivor couldn't possibly have dodged that beam.
To summarize: Put your money where your mouth is. Everything you've claimed? DO.
So if you can see it and you can move its balanced to you?
Is judgements beam 20 meters? No it ain't. It's barely 1 meter and even with add ons and zealous I'm willing to bet it ain't no more than 3 meters. Were it 20 THEN I would agree it's not balanced because survivors would almost always be hit unless then run straight back and pray there's no wall. As it IS right now though, it's perfectly fine to me because I HAVE the chance to get the **** out of the way and it isn't large enough to SWEEP large swaths of the map. Like think of a broom ok? Now image trying to sweep sand with said. Now (hopefully) obviously you'd want to sweep the sand with the wide part with the brush. That would be your 20 meter wide beam. Current judgement would be like trying to sweep said sand with the handle.
Personally, to me no killers are currently OP. Yes even nurse and ghoul, you can loop a ghoul, you can run a nurse. Unfair compared to what you'd need to specify, like I dislike Hillbilly because compared to others with instant downs he doesn't really need to work for it as hard, I dislike the Spirit's add on that gives killer instinct when near a survivor. Of course there's things I'd nerf or buff. But you want to know something? That's just my opinions, my thoughts, those aren't straight facts. You are claiming that this new guy is crazy powerful with claims like he can't be countered in chase and being able to make it so its near impossible to dodge. When people point out obvious things you get mad and went to thinking people are either lying or (practically) noobs.
"If you drop the beam on top of them" aaaaand you've finally conceded my point. I'm saying that the beam is undodgable BECAUSE you can drop it right on top of them reliably. That's why it's got no counter play. Of course you have a chance to dodge it if the killer is stupidly shooting it from 20 metres away.
So what is the width limit for a killer with a ranged projectile in your opinion? And what's the related speed with this width limit?
I bet you think alot of killers are underpowered though, so why is it alot of killers are underpowered but NONE are overpowered? Unfair literally just means the killer has some unfair mechanic i:e, ignoring the chase skill of survivors completely, or having broken levels of map pressure. The point I'm making is that if your mindset is that a killer can never be OP, then ofcourse you think judgement is fine, your mind is completely clouded.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115539#Comment_4115539
I'm both bored and particularly curious about how far the illusion goes. Plus it's a habit of mine.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115530#Comment_4115530
You know the stuff I quoted? That's NOT how that reads mate. Now who's the one trying to lie?
Well if you see it and can move, what's stopping you from attempting to dodge? Your really also comparing ghoul, who has minor auto lock with basically a hit scan, aka almost literally can't miss if he's pointed at you, to judgment, who has to AIM and control it so the big beacon of a beam hits?…Really? Yes in MOST situations it IS practically dodge able. People just apparently like to pretend to be Gohan.
And yes, you've been going "come at me bro" to me and xendritch at minimum. If you CAN record evidence THEN GO DO SO INSTEAD OF YAPPING RIDICULOUS THINGS. Like really. if it's so easy then GO DO it. Go record and show EVERYONE instead of "come see me in customs" cause that would help you better. And you said I don't use critical thinking skills.
The stuff you quoted means what? What even is your point? You quoted some random thing i said about pyramid head out of context and went HAHA I GOT YA.
I'm asking you what form of evidence would satisfy you because you said no to customs, you apparently only want very specific things and I gotta cater to all ur precious needs.
So if you can see it and you can move its balanced to you? So if i made a killer that shoots a beam 20 metres wide at you its balanced because you can see it and move?
Answer me this, are there any killers you would consider OP or unfair in anyway in the game? Any that you would nerf?
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@NeverSolus said:
Astonished ya'll are still engaging with this troll. He quite literally said none of us are comp level players and therefor don't matter, when the comp scene has been pretty unified about not being concerned about judgment. This is just a cry for attention. Even the people he is claiming are more important than us don't care about judgment.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114998#Comment_4114998
Also, yeah, Xen's right. Between animation lock being much much longer, and huntress having add-ons to correct for the animation lock, she feels much better. Huntress is easier to hit with at all ranges, barring collision obstacles.
The comp scene is not concerned about judgement because there's no way it'll ever get played in comp… Comp can choose what killers are allowed to participate but your average pub player cannot.
Barring obstacle collisions is a HUGE but, its literally the main reason judgements attack is so op, it goes though walls.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115172#Comment_4115172
I said hard to dodge not hard to shoot, completely seperate things
...your words, yet again
abusing the fact that a pyramid head shot travels many times slower than judgements.
This reads as the shot itself is many times slower correct? Which means despite your claim people should be "abusing" that fact to counter pyramid head it's apparently very difficult also according to you:
The main counterplay to deathslinger and pyramid head in chase is not dodging because their abilities are insanely hard to dodge.
which doesn't fit with abusing cause if it's insanely hard to do it's not easily replicated repeatedly no?
Where the heck do I mention it being hard to shoot? And now there's no joke cause it needed in-depth explained.
I'm getting hostile because you are either lying out of your ass or playing at a low skill level and making claims for low level of play which I am not contesting.
Let's look at what's been said. Judgements beam is easily seen and/or heard for the average person. Going to say that's a lie? The beam is hard to use close. You claim it's easy, despite the fact that the killer has to do weird manipulating because it has effectively a min range, which is why I claim it's difficult and leaves most judgements effectively a 4.4 with no power in chase. Survivors can dodge the beam. You claim there's multiple ways to make it "98%" undodgeable, I've listed 3 where it's infact undodgeable and can't think of more because there's often plenty of room to atleast try to dodge without one of those listed factors.
I've not lied once this whole conversation as, to be blunt, it's not worth it. What could I gain when the truth hurts ya just as bad? I'm far from the best, but after near a decade of playing I'm more than decent if I pay attention which means I probably sit with the other 90% of players, just like you.
You can literally unadd me right after i just want SOMEONE to prove what they are saying, i can prove to you my points right now.
Practically going "come at me bro" does really entice people to interact with ya to start and even though I can, I'd rather not spend time cleaning whatever mess you might make. I also listed why it would be pointless already as well. If you could record already you'd already be showing your own proof.
I said you are able to abuse the killers more exploitable WEAKNESSES compared to judge not related to their projectile. IE deathslinger and p head being super slow and having limited range, having to deal with obstacles etc. And also having to do with everything else i listed previously.
No you are right it's USUALLY easy to see or hear. That does NOT mean it's easy to dodge. 2 Completely separate things, It's easy to hear when a ghoul is coming for you does that mean it's easy to dodge his attack? Of course not. Just because the beam is "physically" dodgable does not mean it's "practically" dodgable in a real game situation.
It's not a "come at me bro" but i get the idea of a custom or showing evidence could be intimidating if you don't have anything to back up your claims. It's quite easy for me to prove what I'm saying if you'll just let me show you lmao. I can prove if you want why the beam is practically nearly impossible to dodge with consistency with either video evidence or a custom, whatever suits your boat.
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And guess what? You are unfortunately also not entitled to force players to play against you if they don't want to and find it unfun…
Not saying you should give up or be a bad sport, but if people are sick of certain ######### they are allowed to be sick of that #########. I would personally berate BHVR for allowing this ######### to be released cause it's not players fault that they are using a character correctly.
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I
@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115169#Comment_4115169
Now, this might be a me thing, but to "abuse" something has a requirement to be easily able to do and replicate. If these shots are hard to dodge its by the definition of hard, difficult to replicate meaning to me you can't despite telling me how you should dodge it. Which leaves me giggling when you go on with that joke.
The thing is though they're not that hard to dodge. Sure sometimes you'll get someone tricky and they get you once or twice, sometimes you'll make a mistake, or hell sometimes you'll have something else grab your attention at the wrong time, but to any decent survivor paying attention, its not that hard.
Ignoring the fact that unless recorded, which if you could you could already show how to make judgement's shots "98% undodgeable" and i can't record without it hampering my pc, the results of said custom would be your words against mine like it already is. Add to that you can barely go a conversation without sounding condescending or hostile despite people pointing out obvious things regarding this i both do not trust either of us to be honest (i can be very spiteful) nor actively want you on my friends list even temporarily.
I said hard to dodge not hard to shoot, completely seperate things
I'm getting hostile because you are either lying out of your ass or playing at a low skill level and making claims for low level of play which I am not contesting.
You can literally unadd me right after i just want SOMEONE to prove what they are saying, i can prove to you my points right now.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115135#Comment_4115135
Ohh the jokes not about "counterplay". The joke goes how you first say ph shots are "insanely hard" to dodge then go to how you "abuse" how its many times slower than judgements and adding on with how its more dodge able than judgements, all while harping on how "hard" it is to dodge these shots from ph. Least you stuck to your guns with it but makes me question how you'd "abuse" this since apparently its very difficult.
Of course im accounting for a decent killer, im just also accounting for a decent survivor too. Please tell an example of this "98%" undodgeable that doesn't involve one of those 3 situations cause, for me at least, as long as I see it coming I can attempt to dodge at the minimum. The only times I EXPLICITLY can not dodge is the aforementioned situations. Im not assuming just strait lines, im assuming curves, im assuming that weird add on that lets them stop and redirect, im assuming returning it back to themselves. Like, your not glued down are you?
Both things can be hard to dodge, and one is still harder to dodge?? It's not a yes or no question.
The point is PH's shot is already hard enough to dodge, and we decided to add a killer who's even HARDER to dodge but ALSO has NONE of the other weaknesses that PH has. THAT is my point you seem to be avoiding.
Care to join a custom and let me demonstrate? I doubt it.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115161#Comment_4115161
You tell me how .9 seconds of charging a hatchet which goes in a straight line is the same thing as charging a beam which moves by the way as you charge it but a beam that takes 1 second and then has a delay before it starts moving if you cast it asap and a delay on the active hitbox. This is actually comical.
Because:
A: The beam moves way faster.
B: The hitbox is significant larger, making the delay which only exists if you HAVN'T charged it irrelivant.
C: Once again, IT GOES THROUGH WALLS so you can clip people even after they've vaulted or thrown a pallet, you dont need to time it perfectly like a huntress hatchet.
D: Judgement already charges and uses his power on cooldown so you'll already be charging it when people go for vaults or pallet throws, huntress CANNOT charge her power unless she KNOWS it'll give her a hit because its got an actual penalty for winding up and misusing.
E: Huntress also needs to charge her power if she wants to shoot it at a somewhat respectable speed or range, she can't hit people vaulting further than 10 metres away if it's not charged its too slow.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115134#Comment_4115134
Except how are you responding to animation locks in time as Judgement? You say all these things but then you don't know how basic functions of how the killer works. Makes it really hard to take anything you say seriously.
The same way you respond to animation locks at huntress??? Wind up and then shoot?
Once again come prove this to me in a custom, or with video evidence. But you can't and guarantee you'll ignore this conversation as soon as you're asked to provide evidence?
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114951#Comment_4114951
Mhm suuuuuure mate whatever ya say to stay in that nice dilusion.
I mean, lets list when its NOT possible to dodge the beam. 1. Your funneled into a straight hallway with no doors, 2. your in a animation lock, 3. they drop it legitimately on top of you, not a meter or 2, on top. I don't know a map where the first applies as none of the indoor maps don't have some type of door/vault and main buildings either have enough room to run in a decent circle or the aforementioned duck zones. The second would be a survivor thing cause why would you be in an animation lock far enough for said beam to hurt or close enough that you absolutely know its coming. The third is again, how are they dropping it right on top of you at a distance when you can see and hear it commin?
Now, i understand you cant dodge it all the time, we're all supposedly human, we make mistakes now and again, but its almost always POSSIBLE to dodge and it gives a big ***** of a warning.
Also are you proving my point? That PH'ds shot is more dodgable than judgemnts??
Your previous words:
The main counterplay to deathslinger and pyramid head in chase is not dodging because their abilities are insanely hard to dodge.
ALSO your previous words:
abusing the fact that a pyramid head shot travels many times slower than judgements.
ALSO ALSO your previous words:
That PH'ds shot is more dodgable than judgemnts??
Now, im not the sharpest knife but to me something looks funny here. Care to find the joke?
Or you could use some critical thinking skills and clearly see what im saying. I said that THE MAIN COUNTER PLAY against pyramid head is NOT dodging it, not the ONLY counter play. It still is incredibly hard to dodge a PH shot. But somehow despite this, it's STILL easier to dodge than a judgement shot, especially if it's not point blank. That is even more indicative of and proving my point about the INSANE power level that judgement has.
Once again bro you're not account for the fact that the judgement player can be HALF DECENT at the killer. There’s plenty of ways to make shots 98% undodgable using correct angling, positioning and timing. It doesn't just involve animation locks. You're literally assuming that judgement players only know how to shoot in a straight line in incredibly predicable ways. Maybe the judgements you play against but not a half decent one.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114943#Comment_4114943
I do think Huntress Hatchet is easier to hit close up because you're not firing it blind half the time and any time they're animation locked it's a free hit.
Anytime someone is animation locked against judgement it's also a free hit??? Except at literally ANY RANGE AND THROUGH ANY WALLS, that is failing argument right there as judgement is flat better against animation locks. You've CLEARLY never played against a half decent survivor player if you think that they'll just let you walk right up to them and hatchet them in the open. And OFCOURSE you aren't firing it blind as huntress because it would NEVER HIT THEN, HER HATCHETS DO NOT GO THROUGH WALLS BUT JUDGEMENTS SHOTS DO, THIS IS STRAIGHT UP BETTER FOR JUDGEMENT????? This is the problem with the forums NO ONE has any idea how the game is played at a semi decent level here.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114940#Comment_4114940
Can you point out any examples of matches where the survivors never had any chance to dodge the beam? Because I think you will not be able to do so either. I am sure if I'd watch some very good Judgment players that I would however see survivors dodge the beam multiple times as well, even in close calls. But then you would just say that it's the killer that missed, even if it wasn't the reason the survivor dodged.
So what we are left with is the analysation of the power itself. And when doing so, I come to the clear conclusion that the beam always has counterplay. Whether it's enough or not is of course subjective, as that is not measureable, but it certainly does have counterplay.
And yes, this killers counterplay is based on guesswork, or better said, prediction. Pretty much the entirety of DBD's counterplay is based on prediction. You always have to try and predict what the opposing side will do. Because if one side could just always react to what the opposing side does, then the opposing side would have no counterplay against the other side.
If survivors could just react to the beam and always dodge it that way, who the hell would still want to play Judgment? So that is certainly not part of the list of problems that Judgment has.
Honestly I don't know what to tell you any more. You don't like the design decisions of this killer, and that's fine. But there are enough people that do like the new killer, and if you are waiting for some apology or justification from BHVR, you're going to wait for a long time. Because objectively, there is nothing particularly wrong with the killer. Maybe they will get a small nerf or two in the future, but I wouldn't expect any big changes.
There are not enough people who like the design of the killer unless you live in the echo chamber that is the dbd forums full of 5 hour killer players.
Oh yeah I could literally record plenty of matches right now and demonstrate why the judgements power is incredibly unfair. Do you want to see some examples and demonstrations of what I'm talking about? Once again though you keep saying you've come to the conclusion it has fair counterplay based on literally NOTHING with NO proof, and I've offered for you to show me once in a custom, but like everyone who seems to argue judgement is fair, you don't actually have the balls to come to a custom match or show some videos demonstrating it or anything. It's all a bunch of big talk with nothing to back it up.
The problem with this killer is the SOLE reliance on an UNHEALTHY type of guesswork. This killer relies on pure 50/50s that completely ignore survivor skill, it doesn't matter whether you have 5 hours or 5000 hours it's all irrelevant against this killer, which is precisely the problem. It ignores all skill expression from the survivor side.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114939#Comment_4114939
Thing is, with judgement you CANT use it close up without MASSIVE finagling of the controls. So what your with is usually a 4.4 with no ability. Aka: long ****** chase. So, how quick was it again?
…i mean if they're hard for you to dodge i see where your problem with judgement lies. If those are the "counerplay" (Using walls to block, keeping the hell away from the killer so they have to catch up, "abusing" [you seem to like that word] deathslingers longer cd/reload [pyramid actually has a faster cd than either] [you can abuse elevation against judgement by going down when they're up they can however abuse it so that if they're down they hit up so wash at best]) to them then whats so hard about "getting the hell outta the way of the deathbeam" as the counterplay? Assuming no need for accessibility, you hear it and you see it from practically across the map. And that range limit means getting closer in chase can actually help, cause theres a min range limit where the judgement cant hurt you with the beam without weird movements like i said before. Which you can still look at while they're moving around.
Btw:
abusing the fact that a pyramid head shot travels many times slower than judgements.
thats a real fancy way of saying "dodge" aint it.
If you think you can't use judgements ability in a close chase sorry but it's just a skill issue. His power is a little harder to use up close sure but it still works just fine if you get the hang of it.
Yes just get out of the way of the death beam it's that simple to beat judgement right? For the THOUSANDTH time just because you KNOW its coming does NOT mean you can dodge it. You are assuming that if you know when it's coming you can't get hit by it, insane logic. If you think this come play against my judgement right now. But i have a feeling you won't, or you won't demonstrate your supposed counter play, or you've probably just never played survivor in ur life against a half decent judgement.
Also are you proving my point? That PH'ds shot is more dodgable than judgemnts??
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114939#Comment_4114939
How do you manage to constantly say so many wrong things? Executioner got patched so the ability goes uphill now for one and using Judgement's ability in loops is not easy, you have to take your eyes of the survivor then attempt to line up a shot and readjust in a very small time window often times you don't even see the survivor you just have to guess/estimate where they are. Absolutely no clue why we're acting like hitting a beam in a loop is like hitting artist crows in a loop or a huntress hatchet it's much harder than that.
Pyramid head's attack only goes up or down VERY SPECIFIC elevation points like basement stairs. It's still unreliable at elevation and doesn't work properly around it. Judgement literally doesn't care about elevation and his attack is about 10 times better.
You don't seriously think a huntress hatchet is easier to hit against a GOOD player than a judgement beam do you?
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114744#Comment_4114744
I have in fact gone against many Judgments already, luckily. And I have always had fun against them, no matter how good or bad they were. I definitely also had some close dodges that indicate to me that she does have some counterplay.
More importantly though, I am pretty sure from playing as her, as well as looking at her ability, that she does indeed have counterplay. Which I already explained. The delay of the beam is 0.3 seconds, in that time survivors cover a distance of 1.2 meters. Meanwhile the beam only has a radius of 0.6 meters, or 0.66 meters. I get that survivors have some momentum loss when changing directions, at least those that are more than 90 degrees, but I am pretty confident that there is still enough time for survivors to dodge the beam despite that.
In the end, as the Judgment, you have to predict the survivors movement. And that means survivors can also predict the killers aim, and dodge the beam.
Now if you argue that the beam doesn't have enough counterplay, i.e. the likeliness of dodging the beam in zealous form isn't high enough, that I can understand. I don't think I agree, at least not for now, but I can understand that. But the beam does have counterplay, especially outside of zealous.
Also, I have been clipped by beams and didn't take damage, so I am pretty sure the hitbox here is not a problem. Not against normal ping killers at least. And I am pretty positive the survivors can not only dodge on one axis.
And survivors shouldn't be able to react to the beam, they should have to predict it. Otherwise, good survivors could always react to the beam and always dodge it, rendering the killer useless against good survivors.
When it comes to the counterplay of breaking line of sight, I already explained why I think it's more effective against Judgment than Nurse. You are right that she doesn't have as much range as Judgment though, but that doesn't really affect the breaking line of sight counterplay much. And I do believe that survivors can dodge the beam on two axis, as survivors can try and run through the beam right before it starts doing damage. It's true that Nurse has to endure fatigue and move at 95%, but in my opinion that doesn't outweigh the downsides of Judgment when it comes to breaking line of sight.
Now I don't think I can demonstrate this on the forums though. For one, if I showed a video of me dodging beams against a Judgment, you would probably be of the opinion that the Juddment just missed and that's it. And I am also not the best survivor anyways.
Come show me in a custom game if you don't think the forums are a good means.
If you don't think you are the best survivor then even find a good survivor who can or someone who has demonstrated solid counterplay to a good judgement.
The problem is there are literally NO examples of gameplay that ANYONE can point to, and not one person has had the guts to try and counter my judgment first hand or anything. It's people talking out of their ass.
Also you admitted that this killer is complete guesswork when you said survivors should have to predict everytime they wan't to dodge. That is part of the list of problems with this killer, the RELIANCE on guesswork.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114657#Comment_4114657
I mean, how quick can you case a survivor at hag speed? Sure they can harass others while in chase but its a very obvious tell when its gonna happen. And each charge and fire of said beam slows them down, meaning more chase instead of more death.
What do you mean judgement cant be countered in chase, ofcourse they can. Can you counter slinger in chase or pyramidhead in chase? Yes you can, same as judgement. Pretty sure dodging and prediction are indeed survivor skills, which last i checked matters a lot to judgement.
Uhhh how do you chase people at 110? Idk maybe using ur RANGED ABILITY LIKE EVERY OTHER RANGED KILLER DOES? Have you even thought through this statement?
The main counterplay to deathslinger and pyramid head in chase is not dodging because their abilities are insanely hard to dodge. It's using obstacles that death slinger can't shoot through, abusing range limits that judgement does not have, abusing their significantly longer cooldowns and punishments than judgement, abusing elevant against pyramid head, abusing the fact that a pyramid head shot travels many times slower than judgements.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114660#Comment_4114660
They buffed the curve window when you use the beam right away, so when the activation delay of the beam is still at it's highest.But when they delay is at it's lowest, the curve window is still 0.3 seconds. Not sure if this is intended and was just communicated poorly, or if this is a bug, but I sure do hope it's intended, and that the devs realise that a curve window of 0.6 seconds for a beam that starts damaging after 0.3 seconds would be too strong.
And no, if the survivor dodges at the right time, you won't be able to react to the survivors movement with the curve window of 0.3 seconds in order to always to get a hit. This is because on top of the reaction time of the killer player, there is a small delay between aiming the beam, and the beam actually following your aim. It's like you are pulling the beam with your aim, instead of the beam being exactly where you aim it at. If Henry had some kind of 0.3 second adjustment time on his vine attacks, then those would probably be undodgeable.
So if you time your dodge right, and make the right read, you can dodge the beam.
I would have also argued that breaking line of sight is more effective counterplay against Judgment than against Nurse, for multiple reasons. For one, Nurse is constantly repositioning herself during chase, meaning even if she misses, she most likely gets into a position where it's harder for the survivor to break line of sight. Judgment doesn't do that, as a survivor, you mostly keep the distance you have to her after she uses her beam.
And Nurse has 2 blinks, she can reposition herself with the first blink, so it's often times enough when she just gains line of sight on the survivor after her first blink. Not to mention she has to be less precise because she has 2 blinks and a lunge out of her blinks. Judgment on the other hand has to be more precise with her beam, as it only has a radius of 0.6 meters, or 0.66 meters while in zealous.
And survivors can dodge the beam by doubling back into the beam as well, if they time it right. That's because of the 0.3 second delay of the beam before it starts damaging. In fact, some survivors try to run towards the beam while the Judgment is redirecting the beam towards the survivor and doesn't have line of sight on the survivor during that time. Which also brings me to the last point. While Nurse has fatigue, the Judgment sometimes has to look away from the survivor in order to charge up the beam for long enough, to then hit survivors at closer range, which also opens up counterplay against the Judgment.
So as you can see, I am confident that Judgment has a good amount of counterplay for survivors. Now this doesn't fully answer the question whether she is op or not, because other factors, such as the cooldown of her power, also contribute to that question. But she certainly does have counterplay.
Gonna start of by saying if you think judgement has a fair amount of counter play for survivors can you demonstrate this please? Preferably in a custom lobby with be but even video demonstrations would be great. Because I have a feeling you haven't actually played much or any survivor against his killer.
What you've said about judgements aiming power and second delay etc is true but its hardly relevant/hardly a limiting factor for this killer. What you've not done in ur analysis is account for all the variables that make it CONSIDERABLY harder to dodge on the survivors end than aiming as killer. These include movement delays survivors have, the fact they can only dodge on one axis, limiting their ability to move in confusing or smart directions, the fact that the beam is rather HUGE and survivors hitboxes also extend the potential hitbox of the beam, the fact that survivors also play on PING and have no chance of reacting to the beam EVER unless the killer does a horrrific shot. 0.3 Seconds is NO time to completely change the direction of movement as a survivor not withstanding hitboxes, and OBSTACLES that survivors have to worry about that the killer literally doesn't.
What you've said about nurse getting 2 blinks and being able to reposition easier is true, she does get 2 changes to reposition, HOWEVER she can't just do that across the whole map, she needs to be very close to reliably do this, which cannot be said about judgement. None of that also negates or overpowers the facts I told you previously about nurse being 95% ms, having to predict survivors movement on 2 planes of relativity and having long visibility reducing fatigue's every time she uses her power, none of which judgement has to deal with. Much better trade for the judgement if you balance these factors accordingly.
This is not even going into all of the other toxic and unhealthy elements of this killer.
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@Drunkenmunky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114688#Comment_4114688
(up vote) btw
Just to be clear, you need to play her.
That pressure from randomly guessing to throw an orbital shot at a random gen while in a chase is only a bonus if you hit with it.
Her M2 slows her down considerably. Instead of 4.4 you're basically 1.1 while casting M2. And the speed of the shot is considerable. 0.6 seconds to redirect is insane for us normies. I simply don't have the reaction time for half a second.
Complaining about the reaction time is silly. Never has her boost been useful.
You're trying to discount my experience without experience.
Play as her, then come back.
If you're only looking at it from a survivor side you're not getting the whole story.I've played her a ######### ton plenty and it's quite clear she's broken unless your coping insanely hard. A human's reaction time is 0.3 seconds, 0.6 seconds is MORE THAN ENOUGH time for the average person to react to a dodge. Remember that survivors have to dodge BEFORE you launch the power anyway or they'll get it, so thats even MORE time you get to react to their dodge. If they dodge half a second before you press the button, thats 1.1 seconds of time you get to react. That is UNMISSABLE levels of reaction.
If you think that redirect time does nothing I have a bridge to sell you, and it involves a custom lobby with my judgement.
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@Drunkenmunky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114664#Comment_4114664
You're clearly not worth responding to as you have not clearly not played her as a killer or read (comprehended) anything I said.
Nor have you understood anything I've said.
GG and GL in your next game.Yeah right I definitely havn't played her ever.
You can't just say someone's not worth responding to when you don't like what they are saying. How about you stop running when you're confronted with facts?
The fact it ONLY took you 4 days to learn this killer "idk how many games this is but that's likely not many, you will have to tell me", kinda shows that the killer isn't hard. It doesn't take only 4 days to learn a hard killer, unless they actually aren't hard… And people are trying to pretend otherwise. You know how many games it took me to learn this killer? About 5. That's it. Smashed everygame with her since using only 1 perk. It's disgusting broken and everyone knows it.
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@Drunkenmunky said:
All that said; Judgement's power is really difficult to use. Ya, throwing at gens and aura's isn't hard however; using her power mid range during chase is almost just luck. Anticipating where the survivor will be while trying to perform a wacky slingshot that breaks your line of sight is extremely difficult. When I am in close range I often use her power to try and corral the survivor to an M1 position out of fear as I'm unlikely to actually hit with M2.
I'm more likely to get a M2 while the survivor is running away from me. The angle is more shallow and much easier to anticipate. 30 and 60 degree angles are much easier to manage than a hard 90 at close range. It's also easier while the survivor is running away because the distance they are trying to gain actually plays in my favor. Due to the charge and distance and angle, it's much easier to get that second hit since they are now in the kill box. Landing the M2 at close range is just not something most people can do unless they are overdosing on caffeine.
While I understand the OP's frustration I would suggest they try to play her and attempt these close range shots.
I don't use aura read for the same reason I don't take most add-ons as Nurse.
You can only really learn these difficult killers by getting a feel for it. The add-ons ruin that feel.
The only way I can explain that is Nurse training.
Knowing your exact distance from a gen you can perfect blink to in a single blink. It's just kinda an estimation of the size of the gen on your screen vs how long it takes to max charge a blink.
It's similar to the Judgement in the sense it's a charge time vs distance issue.
It took me about 4 days with zero aura read to start getting 4ks. I still miss 90% of my M2's. I'm just better at using M2 to corral survivors to an M1 position. While my MMR is catching up with me; the only reason I'm still getting 4ks is because the survivors in my games are to cocky. They get 4 gens and flashlight me 8+ times and through all that attempt to bully me only to ruin themselves at the end. They stay way to close and I only need to M1 them.
I'm sure this will change soon. I'll end up losing more as my MMR is raising faster than I can learn her power effectively.
It really is easy to dodge. Unless they are in that weird kill box distance of around 30m. The charge time and distance just makes 30m the easiest to aim at.
Closer than 30m is really hard to aim at. After 30m, just dodge.
I'm a survivor main but I love Nurse and Judgement. I just don't have the energy to play them regularly and I get tired of the stomp. I don't even play Nurse anymore cuz people hate it so much. If I do, I let 2 survivors go if they are only at 4 gen. I understand the frustration. I also find learning difficult high skill killers fun.
Judgement is my new Nurse. I'm not there yet, but, getting to the point where I can land those M2 shots at 90 degree angles easily is a goal. It's just unfortunate I'll no longer want to play at that point cuz everyone will hate it so much.Your statement is completely contradictory
You said that these killers are "hard" and also that you "hardly play them".
Yet in the same breath you said you stomp every game with them?
Can you explain this?
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114480#Comment_4114480
The 0.6 second curve window is a lie. It only applies when the delay is still at maximum, if you hold the power long enough for the delay to only be 0.3 seconds, the curve window is also 0.3 seconds, I tested it and am pretty sure this is how it works. Not sure if this is intended or a bug (I really hope it's intended, because the beam does NOT need a buff), but at the moment, the beam can always be dodged if you make the right read as survivor. Now if they ever make it so the beam can be curved for 0.6 seconds, even with a minimum damage delay after activation of 0.3 seconds, then you might be right that survivors have no counterplay.
But right now, if the survivor makes the right read at the right time, they can dodge the beam. And outside of zealous, it isn't always a 50/50. Especially when the survivor breaks line of sight, they have higher chances of dodging the beam than getting hit by it, at least in most cases.
And no, Judgment does take a lot of skill in general. Just because you didn't find her hard doesn't mean that applies to everyone. She is definitely one of the more skillfull killers in the game. With aura reading less so, but even with aura reading she isn't that easy to play. And as explained, the skill of the survivor at the moment is not irrelevant.
If you despise going against the Judgment that is totally fine. Everyone has killers they dislike going against. But that doesn't mean everyone feels that way, I for one love going against her.
First of all they literally buffed it to 0.6 seconds a few days ago for some strange reason, are you saying the devs lied about this change or just ######### it up?
Even if what you are saying is true it doesn't change the fact that a redirect window is still insane. The speed that the beam travels at 0.3 seconds is MORE than enough time to redirect it to react to a dodge. You could even do the maths on this to demonstrate it.
Just because you can see the attack coming SOMETIMES doesn't translate into dodging or "counterplay". You need to account for the insane width and speed of the beam, as well as the terrible survivor movement acceleration values, huge hitboxes of survivors and literally any single obstacle on the map that decreases the ability to dodge.
Breaking line of sight is much harder against this killer than nurse for an infinite number of reasons. Nurse is SLOWER than survivors, this killer is 110. Nurse has HUGE fatigue windows where she can't see properly and can barely move. There are also a crazy amount of aura perks and addons available to this killer. ONTOP OF THIS, nurse has to predict survivors location in 2 axis. X and Y. Judgement only needs to predict survivors movement in ONE axis, something that is INFINITELY easier to do.You can't double back a judgement, only guess left or right ASSUMING that the killer doesn't even try to hit you in a creative way or is terrible at timing the power. Like how many more physical pieces of evidence do you need to see it.
Once again having a clunky or weird power to use or get used to IS NOT THE SAME AS DIFFICULT. Case and point the Krasue. Judgement also doesn't take alot of skill. She's been out for less than TWO WEEKS and people have already figured out the best way to play her and are STOMPING people. I dont remember blight stomping people in less than 2 weeks on release, people thought he was bad because he ACTUALLY had a high skill ceiling. Same with Wesker.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114455#Comment_4114455
I don't see a difference between a blight beam or a judgment beam. Blight occupies 1 survivor at a time entirely whereas Judgment occupies none but harasses everyone. I get that people enjoy the idea of attempting 5 gen chases but that's really boring for the people not in chase. I want some of the action too!
The risk is the same if neither Blight nor Judgment are translating power usage into downs they lose time and the game. Each Judgment miss is almost 10 seconds of repair. If the Judgment is playing risk averse by sitting in one area then they lack meaningful pressure.
Huh are you saying judgement cannot occupy one survivor at a time
entirely? Ofcourse he can he just chases them lmao, are you suggesting
you can do a gen whilst being chased by judgement? Judgement can fully
occupy one survivor whilst simultaneously harassing everyone else bro.Blight
can be countered in chase and judgement cannot, blight requires more
skill the better the survivor, judgement doesn't care about survivor
skill. It's that simpleJudgements cooldown on his power is 5
seconds not 10. Blight takes over TEN seconds to recharge his full power
AND has a 2.5 second fatigue window, if you wanna play the numbers game
it's not in ur favour. -
Huh are you saying judgement cannot occupy one survivor at a time entirely? Ofcourse he can he just chases them lmao, are you suggesting you can do a gen whilst being chased by judgement? Judgement can fully occupy one survivor whilst simultaneously harassing everyone else bro.
Blight can be countered in chase and judgement cannot, blight requires more skill the better the survivor, judgement doesn't care about survivor skill. It's that simple
Judgements cooldown on his power is 5 seconds not 10. Blight takes over TEN seconds to recharge his full power AND has a 2.5 second fatigue window, if you wanna play the numbers game it's not in ur favour.