Withered8
Withered8
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114456#Comment_4114456
Judgement has the highest skill ceiling and a high skill floor, Henry has a decent skill ceiling/floor and both requiring good prediction form the killer, so idk where you got the "brainless" from. There are stronger killers than both of those killers which are low A tier.
Do you wanna talk about "brainless" stuff on survivor side?, or are you going to say there's none...
If you think they aren't brainless you are coping or don't understand what makes a killer skillful.
Just because judgements power is awkward to use, doesn't mean it's difficult to use. 2 different things.
Why did it take me about 5 games to learn both of these killers? Since then I've had no problem destroying literally every lobby with only 1 perk on. Meanwhile it would've taken me at least 500 games to learn blight sufficiently, and thats a killer even the best players are still learning things on.
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@AliceNull said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114487#Comment_4114487
Yes, I do actually think she is deliberately baiting out certain called shots and reacting in ways that are hard to read, I think those things are explicitly a skill, and that these players are doing it deliberately and with intent. Some players might execute it better at a given time across games or the like, but its not just random. The fact that Henry isn't super common and there aren't a lot of compilations against him that have taken place is unfortunately roadblock. Like, essentially having to rely on the perspective of the killer makes this a frustrating conversation in ways that are obviously not your fault, unless you've running some kind of secret anti-Henry world programme I don't know about (likely collaborating with the shadowy organization that keeps fog vials undertuned, I'm on to you), and it means I tend to have to pull footage from the Henry players themselves.
I also come from a fighting game background, where there are - across a lot of different games and subgenres - very small interactions and mindgames that might seem random to an outsider that are very much intentionally done with intent. When I see players pre-emptively juking backwards when cutting near a corridor or LOS blocker, I don't see a gamble, I see the same decision making that goes into (just as a random example) a shimmy, or a safe jump against a player or character who likes to DP jump-ins, even if the interactions are much more simple in DBD than in fighting games. A lot of interactions with Henry especially feel the same way from both sides, and while I'm not personally a fantastic player or anything, when I do well against Henry (or on Henry!) when people are even bothering to try and counterplay eachother, its often because I'm baiting out specific reactions on purpose and then taking advantage of them. Going back to an earlier example you gave, I also don't really see the distinction between a good Billy player reading a flare-out and getting the down by cutting wide on purpose vs. a Henry reading a double-back and getting a hit for it, same with the opposite interactions and results from the survivor POV.
Can you give me an example of a Henry player that you would describe as good - even in your position of Henry being a low skill ceiling character - that is not making 'silly mistakes' in your opinion, that is losing chases to people behaving randomly?Also is there a DM's system in the forums or something? I have a game I just played I'd like to show you I just put unlisted on YT.
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@AliceNull said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114487#Comment_4114487
Yes, I do actually think she is deliberately baiting out certain called shots and reacting in ways that are hard to read, I think those things are explicitly a skill, and that these players are doing it deliberately and with intent. Some players might execute it better at a given time across games or the like, but its not just random. The fact that Henry isn't super common and there aren't a lot of compilations against him that have taken place is unfortunately roadblock. Like, essentially having to rely on the perspective of the killer makes this a frustrating conversation in ways that are obviously not your fault, unless you've running some kind of secret anti-Henry world programme I don't know about (likely collaborating with the shadowy organization that keeps fog vials undertuned, I'm on to you), and it means I tend to have to pull footage from the Henry players themselves.
I also come from a fighting game background, where there are - across a lot of different games and subgenres - very small interactions and mindgames that might seem random to an outsider that are very much intentionally done with intent. When I see players pre-emptively juking backwards when cutting near a corridor or LOS blocker, I don't see a gamble, I see the same decision making that goes into (just as a random example) a shimmy, or a safe jump against a player or character who likes to DP jump-ins, even if the interactions are much more simple in DBD than in fighting games. A lot of interactions with Henry especially feel the same way from both sides, and while I'm not personally a fantastic player or anything, when I do well against Henry (or on Henry!) when people are even bothering to try and counterplay eachother, its often because I'm baiting out specific reactions on purpose and then taking advantage of them. Going back to an earlier example you gave, I also don't really see the distinction between a good Billy player reading a flare-out and getting the down by cutting wide on purpose vs. a Henry reading a double-back and getting a hit for it, same with the opposite interactions and results from the survivor POV.
Can you give me an example of a Henry player that you would describe as good - even in your position of Henry being a low skill ceiling character - that is not making 'silly mistakes' in your opinion, that is losing chases to people behaving randomly?If you come from a fighting game background you would know that good fighting games involve complex interactions and rock paper scissor style gameplay. This is why street fighter 6 is highly critised as the gameplay felt more 50/50 than complex 3 or 4 way interactions.
A good Vecna' can nearly always hit you if you simply try to react to his shots, it's quite literally unreactable. Thus, your option as a survivor is to predict when the shot is going to happen and pre-emptively dodge. The gameplay then becomes a 50/50 at every opportunity because its either "is he going to shoot and i dodge" or "is he not going to shoot and i don't dodge". The whole pathing aspect and direction of movement is rather irrelevant because it doesn't matter which direction you go, its either predict the shot and go any direction or don't predict the shot and get hit. Just to bring it back to that billly and huntress example, the direction you dodge and the movement you make absolutely DOES matter against these killers, whether its breaking away, playing around obstacles, going super wide or just a little wide, taking a 3rd pathing option etc. These things don't matter against Vecna, cause it doesn't matter where you dodge, only WHEN you dodge. That's the whole argument against his RNG gameplay.
I don't know any Vecna players cause like you said not many people play this killer much, because the skill ceiling is rather low and top players find the gameplay stale and luck based. But I can demonstrate what I'm trying to show you about how you aim the vecna power in a custom or something if you want. I will try and even get some footage to show you the ways you can aim and be patient and abuse the hitbox but also the spam ability.
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@pidgeon said:
I obviously do not develop Dead by Daylight but I am a game developer and here is my take:
Judgments initial power was going to be a hitscan beam, which is obviously overpowered in a game like Dead by Daylight so they changed it to an orbital ray which would be perfect.. If the Zealous curve didn't exist. Currently I genuinely love Judgment but she becomes terrible to play against, and unbelievable easy to play as once she becomes Zealous as her power just becomes free hits.
Aside from the fact that the Curve Window exists Judgment as a whole has a pretty great and rewarding design, her power (w/o Zealous) is hard to hit and in exchange you get a very powerful hook state being Exile. (Exiled survivors shouldn't spawn right next to the killer imo) Outside of Zealous Judgment is genuinely a pretty balanced killer, the power is dodge able at long ranged and close ranges.
This killer as a whole has a pretty great design imo, its just that the curve window is genuinely overpowered.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114470#Comment_4114470
This should be fixed next patch as for some reason the statues are not considered "killer items"
I'm glad someone on this cursed platform is finally acknowledging the disgusting curving you can do on that thing. It's incredibly concerning that the devs thought to BUFF the curve window since release, as if this killer wasn't already strong enough?
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@Massquwatt said:
I mean I can justify their choices for the Judgement's design easily.
We voted for it after all.Last i remember people voted on the THEMES of the power and chapter not specifically a cross map wallbanging damaging beam and all the gameplay nightmares that come with it.
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@AliceNull said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114453#Comment_4114453
Like I said, the titles and thumbnails are always a little (or more than a little) obnoxious but the videos themselves are quite good IMO. I really wish I could find more channels that do the no voice with text commentary thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tohymR42Io4
There are a lot of throughlines between survivors in the videos across their channel that are able to take longer chases, and this is a dedicated Henry specialist (though not a complete one trick) who plays on Hong Kong servers.
Also, being real, Henry just isn't that popular. I've gone to the stream of someone I consider a fairly skilled looper in the general playerbase rather than the extreme end with the comp scene (Cope ((the person)), if you're familiar at all) who streams multiple hours of the game frequently, and they almost never SEE Henry in their matches. While I skimmed because I'm not going to spend hours and hours looking or anything, I've genuinely seen more Onryo than Henry during their streams. Across 20+ hours of footage you might find 3~5 matches against the character, and the 1v4 means they're only going to be chased occasionally…not exactly easy to grab footage from that POV.
But, given you're talking comp players, lets talk comp players. Knightlight is known for calling Henry casino gameplay! So, its settled! …Until you actually pay attention to his mechanics instead of the talk on stream. When he's locked in, he's paying attention to the ground and directly reacting to M2s, dodging in specific ways on purpose that WORK, and is outplaying Henry in chase to last long in ways that are DIRECTLY similar to a lot of the successful survivors/strategies you'll see doing well in chases against people like ILoseToWin. If you wanted to go through KnightLight's footage and stitch together his matches against the character, somehow I doubt you're going to see him taking it seriously against average Henry players and just getting dice rolled to death on the regular, or see significantly less skilled players get the same results if you were to put them in these chases just by slapping their keyboards. I mean, you can compare him to his solo queue teammates in these exact matches, even.
Even if you want to say 'well, going AGAINST Henry takes skill, its PLAYING the character that has a low skill ceiling' why do we see specialists or highly skilled killer players getting outcomes that the general playerbase aren't? If you're willing to burn out your retinas watching his awful filters, do you think an average Henry is going to see even remotely close to the same kind of results as people like OnePumpWillie over the long term? That if a slightly above decent player tries their best with some practice added on, they're going to end up tossing out winstreak numbers in the triple digits on the character, or that they'll get the same chase results but eat dirt on the macro level exclusively?Okay thanks for at least sending me something. I wanna engage in this not as an argument but to try and show you my perspective and what I mean when i talk about this killer and the judgement. But I have to call out why I think this video doesn't demonstrate what this killer actually does. Also I know this is only one video so I'm not fully judging off that just making assertions off the video.
Sure this killer player plays alot of Henry and he's not Terrible but do you think this guy played really well this game? Or even just pretty decently? And do you think the survivors played well? Just start from there okay.
Watching this video this guy from my Pov made aLOT of silly mistakes that made the game alot closer than it should have been. He took alot of pot shots and missed lots of them, which was unlucky but also mistakes by him because he took alot of unnescasery risks, which he even mentions himself at one point in the video. He also makes alot of terrible macro mistakes involving bad slugs etc that cost him alot of pressure. Not relevant to Henry himself but to the result he gets which is part of the discussion on his power level. Most important I don't think he's always aiming correctly. He also aims a decent chunk of his shots really poorly and impatiently. Take the time stamp 1:35 for example. Over the next minute during this chase starting with his first shot he wildly misses many attacks, where it's quite possible to be slightly more patient and at the very minimum get a shot that's likely going to hit, let alone guaranteed. Infact he ends up just m1 downing this Cheryl because he missed so many. You could say that she "played well" but what did she do that was different or unique from other players? Or what made her so smart in this chase? She kind of just moved around sporadically around that shack, got lucky when he whiffed a significant number of his shots pointlessly and then just died anyway. Despite these things as well, there's alot more I could go into, he still ends up winning regardless, with quite a mediocre build and average macro.
I'm interested to see this knightlight gameplay you are talking about and granted I'll need to look into it, but having some lucky chases or randomly good chases doesn't mean the killer isn't still a 50/50 uninteractive machine. I'd be willing to bet that Knightlight gets 2 tapped in just as many chases as he last a while despite playing the same way with the intentional and smart and decisive movement. T
Regarding your last paragraph I don't think going against Henry or playing against him takes much skill. When you play henry, you'll notice that its the survivors who don't look behind themselves, who aren't aware of their own or the killers movement and don't think intentionally about their movements that are harder to chase than the survivors with deliberate and precise and smart movement.
I might try and record some gameplay of my own to show you some of the things i mean in regards to mechanics and aiming etc, but we should continue this discussion, I think it's important for you to understand what I'm saying and demonstrate it.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114475#Comment_4114475
That's how both sides have counterplay against each other.
Would not call it counterplay. This is a guessing game, nothing more.
since it undermines the skill that Judgment takes
The skill Judgment takes is way lower than expected with Aura Reading. On the PTB I also thought that Judgment will be a very skill-demanding Killer, but her skill requirement is really low if you slap on Aura Read. (Which does not even come as such a high cost, considering that Hook-related Perks dont work on her, so it is not like you have to make that big of a choice)
Not saying that the skill is 0, but it is certainly not much.
@Topic:
The Devs wanted the "Community Chapter" to be a strong Killer. Obviously only for the Killer side, the Survivor is unpopular with bad Perks. But the Killer is very strong and not that hard to play.
IMO the Devs knew exactly what they were doing and it is 100% intentional. They also buffed A Nurses Calling to work on slugs again, and it works perfectly with Judgment.
Yeah if the devs are unable to answer for what they've blatantly done here then there is no other conclusion that can be drawn other than they've given up on good game design and balance and gone towards blatant killer cash grabs. Sadly it's a trend that's been going on for a while now. I would love for them to prove to me otherwise or tell me the good things about this killer but I'm waiting…
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Yikes gotta look into that never even heard of that third seal build as well sounds disgusting.
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@ad19970 said:
I mean what you say here is just not true. No matter how good the Judgment, there is always a chance to dodge the beam at the moment. You just have to predict the aim trajectory of the beam properly and then you can dodge the beam. If however the Judgment aims well and predicts your movement properly, they will get a hit against you. That's how both sides have counterplay against each other.
But yes, the beam can always be dodged if you as the survivor make the right read.
Also, saying that the Judgment doesn't have any counterplay unless the player is completely new is also such an exaggeration on top of being false, since it undermines the skill that Judgment takes. Not saying Judgment is the hardest thing to ever grace a pvp game, certainly not, but playing Judgment is not easy either.
I can still see an argument for her being a tad op at the moment, due to her low power cooldown and/or aura reading potential. But to say she is completely unfair to go against because she has no counterplay is just not true. She still has to predict survivors movements in order to get a hit, which means survivors can also make the right predictions and dodge the beam.
Edit: I also haven't had many survivors give up in my matches yet at all. Most of them do realise there is counterplay I believe.
This is straight up a bunch of lies.
Once she becomes zealous, her beam is UNDODGABLE. Unless your tragically bad at using the power or making really really stupid mistakes the 0.6 second window to change its direction means you simply let go of the attack a couple meteres before the survivor and change its direction if they dodge. It's literally a honing missile that you guide. Even before you get the zealous power, which is pretty much only for the first chase each game as you will have it permanently up for the rest of the game, its at minimum a 50/50 as to whether you get a hit. Combine the extremely low cool down and you will just down them eventually even if it takes 2 or 3 shots.
The judgement does not take much skill. You are confusing a killer with a weird/unusual power to use for difficulty. Weird and different is not the same as difficult. Her power is rather easy to use once you get used to the weird aspect, which took me about 5 games at most, and then you simply charge your power backwards, aim to the survivor and tap when its nearly on top of them. It's not that hard. The skill of the survivor is also irrelevant regarding how fast they go down because its on YOU to miss. It's far more difficult to play a killer who DOESN'T ignore half of survivors perks, has to understand how HOOKS work, has to understand how CHASES and TILES and LOOPS work and who doesn't ignore nearly every element of the game that other killers abide by. It's basically a separate game that anyone can learn, doesn't matter if you've never played killer or are an expert.
If you think it is at all reliably dodgable whilst zealous I have a bridge to sell you and a custom lobby waiting.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114456#Comment_4114456
…aren’t the first and Vecna 2 the same guy?
Sorry Judgement and vecna2 that was meant to say
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@esoteric0108 said:
now that theres 44 killers can we finally have the option to ban killers and prevent certain ones from queing?
if a survivor doesnt wanna play against a certain killer theyre not gonna play and thats that, for example if i load in and see its a Henry then im gonna run into the killer and go next, its simply not worth me investing my time in a match i know is not gonna be enjoyable.
99% of games have stuff like this
If killers want the option to have brainless and op ranged killers like the first and vecna 2, where's the survivors option to not play against the brainless and op killers?
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114077#Comment_4114077
the range means you have to actually interact with the killer, in this case a dodge to the side occasionally. this killers "chase" is very short but a single beam is still more interaction than some m1 killers as they have to physically walk towards you, allowing you to play on auto pilot with the visual heartbeat. pre running is the opposite of interactivity. Then there's killers like Artist who are so strong in loops they encourage no interaction as well.
The ghoul and blight's dashes mean you have to interact with the killer, in this case use obstacles to dodge their dashes and dodge an attack to the side when playing against blight occasionally. A few dashes is still more interaction than one sunbeam from the sky as they still have to physically walk towards you, as opposed to pressing one button from a range and not risking anything.
See how your logic can be used against you?
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@AliceNull said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114185#Comment_4114185
So, its going to be difficult for me to find this sort of content from the survivor POV, especially from the survivor POV against an average or upper-middle Henry where the skill difference is going to be more pronounced. Those channels (or at least the ones I watch regularly) don't tend to have tagging system or character focuses in their videos, and kind of by nature I'd need to comb through a LOT of stream footage because they face a whole bunch of different killers.
What I CAN do is grab you a video from a dedicated, very skilled Henry player that showcases a couple 30~40 second chases with distinct differences in their movement both between levels of the survivors and the good survivor's own very different chase outcomes, and where the Henry notably adapts over time…as long as you're willing to deal with an admittedly obnoxious clickbait thumbnail and title combination from a creator I enjoy, if you'd like. (They do a specific editing style that I love but can barely find creators for, I've still not found a single survivor channel that does it despite searching for it and even most of the killer ones have stopped or changed styles.)Okay I'm happy to look just send a link or something.
It's difficult to find from the survivor pov however because its not reliable, you don't see comp players or likewise demonstrating and showing their skills against henry.
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@tak47888 said:
Damn, this is why this killer feels so refreshing and good to play. You should try it! Not having to deal with Decisive strike (being used aggressively), unbreakable, Deliverance and shoulder the burden every match is a blessing. These are the second chance perks that give survivors a massive advantage, that alone will make most killers struggle heavily with their time management and can delete any pressure in an instant. Finally hooking does not feel like a punishment and a waste of time, even though it is the killer's objective. This is exactly, what encourages killers to go for the next chase with another survivor, because camping is simply not possible and it values the killers time spent to succesfully down a survivor. I think, more killers should get a rewarding experience like this for downing/hooking survivors. Why not make agitation in a weakened form base kit for killers? I think that this is a very welcoming change to the game, which is combined with a quite strong killer. This can feel quite oppressive on the Surivor side, I guess. But anyways, Surivor role is boring and should not be catered to more than it already has been in the past.
Oh it's nice getting to ignore all of the fundamental game mechanics and turn your brain off?
Okay when's my new survivor coming out who ignores fundamental mechanics?
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@Hoopme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114101#Comment_4114101
Your just generally wrong and the amount of dislikes attest to it. If you don't think ghoul isn't a strong and unfun killer your pretty delusional especially how bent you are trying to get Judgement gutted
Your legit making up my words. I didn't say he's not unfun. I didn't say he's not strong. I said he's not BROKEN or SUPER STRONG. He is unfun and he's a pretty good killer. But he doesn't completely break the game mechanics like the judgement and he's no where near as powerful as the judgement. The ghoul can get looped for days, the judgement cannot, the ghoul abides by basic game mechanics, the judgement does not.
Also oh no I've got dislikes on the forums where most people here are rather or are completely clueless on the game? No one here is a comp level or high level player. Ofcourse i've got dislikes from your little gang trying to cover up what's blatantly the most op and disgusting killer release probably ever.
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@AliceNull said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114157#Comment_4114157
I strongly disagree with the idea that characters like Henry or Judgement have low skill ceilings or aren't interactive. While I'm not confident enough to come out with a called shot on whether we'll see some kind of disgusting tech on Judgement specifically or not in the future, Henry doesn't really have 100% setups unless you're animation locked or in an incredibly tight corridor with him body blocking you, and you have a lot of room for skill expression and mindgames even on the micro level on both sides, its just not strongly tied to traditional tiles or how they're usually played. I think you are REALLY oversimplifying these interactions.
The way someone uses line of sight breakers and whether Henry is able to predict their movement, how long the Henry holds after the initial sound indicator and whether a survivor can stay calm and react to when they finally use the M2, how much distance you're getting for each dodge and whether you use that distance effectively, where specifically you are dodging to and why, whether you're making use of open space or putting yourself in a bad position by committing too obviously - these are things each player can get into the other's head about, and can try and condition their opponents with. There are survivors who are skilled at dodging these M2 shots, even against good Henry players, and they're not achieving that on accident or by just haphazardly rolling their hands across their controls and hoping he misses.
Its easier to watch skilled Henry players streaming and focus on the survivors in the matches they lose to get an idea of what I mean - just because survivors aren't really making "VS. HENRY (or judgement)" compilations outside of like, maybe the first week or two of their release, though I'd like to see more of that - but they're not just jittering around randomly and praying, they're making intentional decisions that get them results. Playing vs. Henry (and Judgement) can be particularly difficult partially because its an entirely new skill you have to learn! The survivors in these winning vs. losing (or even winning but much closer) matches aren't just getting gambled on, they're playing in very different ways.Look if you can show me a survivor player who can reliably and consistently juke a henry and last decently in chase i'm all ears, but I'm get to see it.
You made some statements there like "survivors need to stay calm and react, don't dodge too obviously" well the first one isn't true because his attack is literally unreactable if he's patient with it, and there's a difference between dodging not obviously and skillfully and dodging sporadically and randomly.
When you say that survivors beating vecna are making intentional movements that get them results can you show me examples of this? Survivors can beat Vecna by running to corners and just wasting time provided they get a good map and get a few lucky shots but i dont see reliable counter play at all.
When you mention breaking line of sight as a counter strategy, that only works against nurse as she's slower than survivors and has to fatigue after every power usage. Vecna does not, and he's 110, not 95.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114129#Comment_4114129
You can body block her, by bodyblocking her herself, to obstruct her vision of the one you are trying to protect, I take m1's to save others with duty of care overcome all the time against her.
You're just talking in extremes, there is issues, you're just being really negative about her.Ur kidding you genuinely thing that you can body block against a judgement with a brain? That's insane. Your legit just giving her a free hit if you're doing that, even worse probably a free down if they are half decent. She can also just ignore you and shoot the person she's tunnelling.
And by your logic, you can body block against a bubba by blocking his vision!
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@AliceNull said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114110#Comment_4114110
This is complete nonsense on almost every level. Predictions, pattern recognition/playstyle adaptation and reaction baiting are all skills, and have been integral to what skill even looks like in DBD for the games ENTIRE lifespan, down to the fundamentals of playing an M1 killer in the first place. What even defines '50/50s' here from the two of you? You have a pig avatar, so I'll start with that. Are vibe checks to bait people to leave tiles 'guesswork 50/50s'? What about mindgaming tiles while hiding your red stain for M1 plays? Are ambush reversals 'guess slop' because they rely on predicting whether or not your opponent is going to react a certain way and can be countered?
There are skilled Henry players who are hitting the majority of their shots in the majority of their matches, including ones behind cover without aura reading. There are skilled survivors who are able to run average Henry players for pretty extensive lengths of time and reliably dodge their M2s. Are you or OP going to sit there and say these players are just rolling dice all game and HAPPEN to get lucky constantly, across dozens or even hundreds of matches? If you're going to say yes to those, but not to Pig, where do you draw the line between them? Frankly this all seems to be 'fighting games are just button mashing!' levels of cope.Theres a huge difference between 50/50 style predictions and pattern recognition gameplay and rock paper scissor style gameplay or more advantaged prediction based gameplay. Lets take a good killer like huntress for example. Imma credit someone who neatly explained this to me but let me demonstrate.
Lets start with your example of mind gaming tiles whilst hiding the red stain. Red stain mindgames are not 50/50s, they are many options available for survivors and killers. Survivors can double back, commit or break away, there's many directions of play they can make. Killers can predict this play and subsequently make moves to predict survivor movements or trick them. Survivors can subsequently predict these predictions and the loop goes on. Its a complex series of predictions but also recognising playstyles of different players, adapting to movement etc. Good survivors and cool killers can abuse the red light, movement, check spots, walking techniques etc which introduces a whole range of interesting gameplay interactions.
Lets go to some killer powers that are not 50/50s and i'll explain why. A character like huntress always has a beatable option and a drawback for committing to an option. For example, a huntress drawing up her hatchet is something she needs to commit to, and has drawbacks associated with it. Sure the act of do i or do i not drop the pallet against a huntress is a 50/50, but there's a million other interactions and predictions that can be made before you get into that situation. The gameplay around dropping the pallet on huntress also is not a 50/50, you can run through the pallet, drop the pallet, hesitate at the pallet to bait a windup and then continue running, you can hesitate and then pretend to run and then actually dodge. And just like the m1 mind game example there's limitless interactions and predictions that both the killer and survivor can make regarding each other’s movement and play, rewarding smart and mechanically skilled players.
For Billy, there's many options for both players in chases once again. If you're at a loop, he can flick you tightly, he can go wide with the chainsaw, he can predict you going wide and go wide himself, he can predict a break away, a survivor can predict him going wide and hug the loop regardless or play around corner pockets, they can utilise crouch techs and either side can predict crouch techs and play accordingly. There's a much greater depth to the interactions which can be made between the players.
Even the pig example you can fake dashing around a loop or commit to the loop and react accordingly, you can break to the loop, you could even pretend to play the loop and then drop the pallet, you could utilise a window set up. Many potential outcomes in a chase.
Henry is not entirely luck based but there's a very low and set skill cap to his killers power and interactions with the survivors. Once killers and survivors understand how it works, it comes down to whether the killer can hit the power or not. Survivors don't get much of a say in this interaction, they try to frantically and randomly dodge hoping that the killer misses the power. There's no adapting to the movement and play styles of the other play when playing either this killer or survivor, no drawback to using the power or making predictions, it's simply a waiting game for when the killer is good enough to hit their power consistently. Thus, all his chases end up playing out the exact same way.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114124#Comment_4114124
Other way around at higher mmr, I'm #1 in Judgment adepts and #17 in Divine Light hits.
Then please show me how you can reliably dodge his power and the high amounts of skill involved in shooting it.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114112#Comment_4114112
Legion also got refined though, how about you stop inserting words in other peoples mouths and just say your own opinion.
I'm not saying they shouldnt get changed but the core concept of the killer is fun, it just needs changes.Legion got completely reworked not just refined. The equivalent for judgement would be making his power only put survivors into mending rather than downing them.
How is the core concept of the killer fun? Its hella boring for survivors cause there's no looping, no adherence to standard gameplay, the killer ignores half of their perks, its easy to get tunneled. You can get crossmap sniped constantly with extremely unreliable counterplay. You cant play altruistically at all against this killer. You can't go for bodyblocks. You can't use windows or pallets, survivors main rescourse, at all. You can't flashlight save. You can't use pallets. What is there thats fun or interactive about this killer exaclty?
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114120#Comment_4114120
What is this CoD lmao? I don't care if you don't know how to dodge that's a you issue, I already know it's true because I face actual good survivors that do dodge.
So you can't prove that what you are saying is true? Then most people will see this and conclude you're lying or ignorant.
"Can you dodge a ghoul attack? If you can't then that’s just a skill issue because i face actual good survivors that do dodge."
This is the exact kind of poor argument you're making, and I doubt your about to tell me ghoul's attack is dodgable.
You're likely at a very low skill mmr level if you're having issues hitting your attack that often.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114115#Comment_4114115
At this point it's clear you don't have much experience on the killer because everything you're saying is wrong (like nothing protects from the beam when in fact lockers do) and I'm not bother trying to convince you otherwise because you clearly have no desire to learn.
HAHAHAHA so you've just conceded you can't contest my points. You know I'm right bro.
Mate I can guarantee i have far more experience on the killer than you. I've spammed him since he's come out. If you don't play them a ######### ton you can't come to a fair conclusion. I've also played plenty against him and customs against good players who actually know how to play against him.
If i'm entirely wrong as you say then you'll have nothing to lose by showing me some evidence of what you're saying, whether by videos or even come play some games against me to show me why I'm wrong. I want to be proven wrong but you cant prove anything so far.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114117#Comment_4114117
I mean there's only no issue involved if the survivor is not paying attention or wants to greed a gen so that feels like a problem for low MMR.
Just because you know it's coming doesn't mean its 100% dodgable.
Come prove it to me if you think otherwise. I'll be waiting
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114109#Comment_4114109
This is a gross oversimplification of Judgement. If you wanna get hits up close you need to chase a survivor while charging the power and lining it up with where you think the survivor is going to be. That's worrying about your position their position and the beams position. This idea that you just fire the beam without thinking is pure fantasy.
First of all your position is entirely irrelevant as it doesn’t matter how close or far you are from the survivor.
Seond the survivors position doesn't matter that much because no obstacles or elevant can protect them from the beam, literally nothing.
All that matters is if ur able to follow your cursor onto the survivor accurately enough or get lucky enough to hit some random shots if you aren't exulted. You don't aim where you think the survivor is going to be that's how to incorrectly play him, no wonder he seems weak then.
And yes the thinking he needs to do to fire the beam is far less than any other ranged killer in the game. Huntress needs to adjust based on loop heights, ur charge time, the speed, the range and where u aim etc. Not withstanding huntress's projectile is far more react-able than judgements. It's legit slower even at full charge. A similar list could be written about other ranged killers in the game, excluding vecna 2 who has the same issue as the judgement.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
I think they are pretty unique honestly, sure could use some refinement but they aren't slop
Old legion was unique should we bring them back because they were unique? Or how about ptb twins? Or how about old nurse? Old spirit?
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@NeverSolus said:
Is…
Is anyone gonna tell him about 50/50's and mind-games?I think he's clearly arguing that 50/50s are bad for the game as a whole.
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@esoteric0108 said:
This killer is legit Henry all over again, just pure guess work.
Killer guessed right (or aura perk) and spawns the ray under your feet? well ya getting hit with no counterplay
Killer guesses wrong by a few metres? well ya make a few metres distance til she tries another guess
literally everyone hates henry and you make him all over again, plus all the interaction (flash saves, sabos, pallet saves, wiggle in general is all useless so theres inherently just less interaction
this killer is simply annoying and not fun. dont be surprised when people AFK this shiii
Yeah skillful gameplay is slowly being erased in this game for guesswork 50/50 gameplay. People will argue that other killers have 50/50 guess work but that’s precisely the problem, too many killers now and too much of the gameplay is 50/50s.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114102#Comment_4114102
Nurse is not hard you put cursor on survivor then readjust if needed with second blink. Meanwhile you're doing trigonometry on Judgement lmao.
I think you have it horribly backwards and I can make it real practical for you.
Judgement is the killer who you just put your power near the survivor and fire. You don't need to take into account obstacles, aim time, loop heights, speed of the power, range, elevation etc. All of these factors which could add skill to a killers power are irrelevant. You don't even need to understand how to play hooks, hook macro, how to play around most survivor perks, how to macro since you can attack anyone anywhere, basic fundamental dbd skills are irrelevant on this killer.
Meanwhile nurse needs to still understand distances with her blinks, play around obstacles and interactions with the blink mechanics. Pallet stuns can be somewhat threatening against a nurse. She needs to be good at macro since she cant pressure 2 sides of the map at once with a ranged ability.
What more practical proof do you need:
Are you able to demonstrate with a video or by playing against me or someone in a custom how nurse is simply about placing a cursor on a survivor? Or how judgement needs to do this fancy triangulation ######### and account for a huge range of variables with his ranged power?
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@Piruluk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114101#Comment_4114101
Yeah ghoul in the end still just m1 killer
Ghoul also doesn't ignore most of the fundamental mechanics of the game. You still need to somewhat understand dbd to win on ghoul at a high level. Sure he's not the most skillful killer but he follows the rules of the game and yeah like you said is mostly m1 at the end of the day.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114079#Comment_4114079
The only reason I'm not worried is the reason Nurse doesn't get touched much despite being a touch too strong is because they consider her hard enough to play that it's warranted. Considering they see Judgement the same way it would be a blatant hypocrisy of their own balance philosophy if they gutted Judgement.
Once again judgement is way easier to play than nurse and nurse has far more obviously exploitable weaknesses.
Also nurse has been nerfed countless times over the years so saying "nurse doesn't get touched" is not true.
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@Hoopme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114083#Comment_4114083
And there it is your saying it's something far worse then Skullmerchant in order to justify wanting to Skullmerchant them.
But thankfully I don't think Devs are going to repeat that mistake because they haven't done anything about Ghoul a Killer that's still absurdly strong way more accessible and has the highest pickrate in the game and is way more unfun so I shouldn't really worry so much.
Idk you seem to be ignoring all the points I'm making which is quite telling in itself.
Ghoul is not absurdly strong he's a noob stomper. Unfun? Sure. Absurdly strong? No. If you thing ghoul is absurdly strong no wonder you think judgement is weak, you're average killer player or survivor play may think this but its not true at higher levels.
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@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114075#Comment_4114075
Did Piccolo tell you I believed all that? That's impressive. I must seek out the tutelage of the Namekian.
What? You said that with the meme you posted. What else would you be implying with that meme?
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@Hoopme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114080#Comment_4114080
Your making a difficult Killer that's gonna have a low player base sound like a blatant op killer while trying to paint it as the second coming of Skull merchant. I'm glad we're at least in the 1 month immunity phase and during an MMR reset so the Devs will just ignore all this and the stats
Nurse has a low player base and is difficult does that means she's not the best killer in the game?
It's not the second coming of skull merchant, it's something far worse. Skull merchant was never a super strong killer, she was just unfun. This killer is slightly less unfun than skull merchant but BLATANTLY OP and breaks so many game mechanics its not fair.
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@Hoopme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113862#Comment_4113862
Sigh talk like this makes me fearful cause I really don't want judgement to get the skullmerchant treatment
Uhhh the truth makes you fearful that a killer might get nerfed? No way a killer gets nerfed they can only be BUFFED.
Do you actually know why skull merchant got nerfed?
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113898#Comment_4113898
when the answer to every killer is to pre run and not engage, it makes sense to get a killer that forces survivors to dodge the killer. There's a reason people turn to Ghoul. But the only other answer to pre running is hyper mobility, which we already have enough of.
How many Nurses, Blights and Ghouls do we need?
What's the difference between hyper mobility and hyper range? The judgement just does the same thing as the other killers except at a longe range which is arguable better than having hyper mobility and he doesn't even need to commit to a chase…
You can loop a ghoul, you can do alot of things in chase as a good player to massively delay him. Blight also has huge amounts of chase counter play as well especially since his nerfs. Even nurse has distinct weaknesses that can be punished. What is the judgements weakness? He has none. You can say no mobility but he doesn't need it when his range is longer than other killers mobility.
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Umm okay so if a killer is OP you just need to stay calm and get better, but if survivors have anything OP it must be instantly nerfed and deleted and also we must nerf survivors even more whilst we are at it because they are all toxic and suck.
Perfect logic
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113898#Comment_4113898
I mean Artist is way better at shutting down loops than Judgement is so I could see someone who prefers micro play over macro preferring Artist. I also disagree that Judgement is easier than Nurse, I mean at a base level against survivors that don't bother paying attention and let you snipe them sure. But against good survivors paying attention you suddenly rely on prediction shots a lot more which is a lot harder than Nurse just teleporting to you twice.
Artist might be better in very specific scenarios in certain loops but thats it. As a survivor you have options against artist in chase you can play distance, play elevation, play for bodies or people to take the crows, you can break to other loops and she heeds to hit you twice with her birds to get a hit unless you walk right in front of one. She also has a longer cooldown than judgement, her crows are much more predictable and you get a huge indicator when they are flying towards you.
Judgement might not seem easier than nurse right now because she's only been out for a week and nurse has been out for 10 years. Of course she's going to seem easier when people have had TEN YEARS to figure out how to play her. Give people a few months to figure out this killer and they will be more disgusting than nurse you bet. Infact in only 1 week people have already figured out some of the most disgusting things this killer does and are dramatically improving on her.
If you're solely relying on prediction shots as the judgement then you are playing her incredibly one. Once she's zealous, her beam is literally unmissable because of the 0.6 second curve window if you are decent. Even before that, you can angle and direct the beam in ways that make it basically impossible to dodge given its insane width and travel time. All it takes as well is one lucky prediction and suddenly you are zealous and the game snowballs like mad.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113862#Comment_4113862
Reading this makes me more confident Judgment is fine because most of this is just not true. Camping with her isn't free, she can't use her power around hooks and there's two shrines you can rescue from exile with. I'm not even going to address the idea she counters EVERY survivor perk because that's obviously a joke and she can't hit you anywhere on the map it's only 60 meters which is about half the map usually.
Okay if you take everything I said there literally sure but my point still stands.
This killer is the definition of mega power creep and creating more and more blatantly OP killers to satisfy a particular audience in the community. Why would you ever play artist when this killer exists, its blatantly a 1000 times better version of her, and artist ISN’T EVEN A BAD KILLER. People complained about nurse for years because she ignores fundamental game mechanics, but then when this killer and Vecna2 do just that suddenly its not a problem and I don't get it. These killers are even easier than nurse and way more frustrating to play against.
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@Piruluk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113793#Comment_4113793
She also isnt hard to play, most people run full aura builds, there is no defense against that on survivor side, she sees everyone all the time.
So she just snipes from afar constantly while holding 3 gens from the very start.
So hard is massive oversell, never saw a chase judgement at all its always long range sniping also she disables most of survivor perks as well.
I wouldn't be surprised if her winrate very high against solo especially
This killer does even better at higher levels as well because she negates most of the survivor skill. She has some of the best 3genning mechanics in the game, is insane at tunneling, can sort of camp for free, negates all survivor perks and can hit you ANYWHERE on the map.
If they are half decent, which is not that hard, they are pretty much unbeatable in chase let alone the insane map pressure, anti perk and time saving abilities in their kit. It's Vecna on steriods and that killer is already horrific enough.
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Answer: He's not, but people will cope regardless. Doesn't matter if they released literal thanos into the game its all fair
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Notice people only want distortion buffed since the judgement came out,maybe distortion and aura perks aren't the problem but the new killer itself… Interesting that everyone seems to be avoiding the elephant in the room
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It never used to be this way, but then noob players who want brainless killers and brainless gameplay with OP kits on release grew louder voices…
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044202#Comment_4044202
There are two types of players in this game: those who will buy this DLC as soon as it gets out, and those who won't. The first will intentionally advocate for OP stuff, because of course they want ez wins. Since purchased ez wins is the main revenue source for BHVR, devs mainly take their feedback into account, and they would rather push a new DLC killer towards the stronger side, even if the killer is already literally a better Nurse.
Yeah its absolutely crazy.
New killers used to be advertised on their unique powers, mechanics and high skill and interactive gameplay. Infact many killers used to take months before people worked out their true power potential.
Now the better and more noob friendlt the power, the better the sales.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044122#Comment_4044122
unstoppable force meets an immovable object, i guess
It's hilarous how people are so blinded by their power hunger as killer that they cannot see when killers are too strong, only when they are too weak.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4043884#Comment_4043884
No, I have in fact exclusively played survivor against the killer
Really? And you've come to the conclusion that he's healthy for the game and balanced?
How exactly is he balanced, if you've played against a half competent one you'd know that ass soon as your within 20 metres of him he will instantly vaporise you.
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Yeah you clearly have not played against this killer as a survivor. It's extremely uninteractive and possibly the most broken killer ever released. It downs people faster than nurse AND has more mobility than nurse lmao.
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@Legendary_deedee said:
Generators go to fast and hook stages should be shorter. Maximum 2 hook stages.
You're joking if you think killers need buffs in this mode.
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@Noobking3000 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3762834#Comment_3762834
The Devs probably know that, because they've probably played a killer that requires precision while having bad ping. Basically everyone has had at least one experience like that so they're probably able to figure out that "bad ping+precise control to use power=unplayable match"
Thats appalling then that theyd allow such a change to happen if they are aware of that, people are literally getting harrased for being on the wrong server when its not even their fault.
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@Noobking3000 said:
From what I've gathered, it's an intentional change that happened at some point around versions 8.0.0 - 8.0.2 and wasn't mentioned in any patch notes I could find, meaning it was silently added (which hopefully means it's a test run to see if people notice and how they react to it instead of it being a permanent change, although this is probably just wishful thinking)
This change combines OCE and SEA regions into the same server pool to "reduce queue times" and "find people with a similar MMR to you more easily".
Now what I've noticed, is that it has neither reduced queue times or found players of similar skill to me. The only things this change has done is increase queue times (for me at least) and increase ping of most players to 150ms+
I'd add links to other forum posts and steam discussions that cover this issue in more detail, but this is my second post and I'm not sure if that's allowed. If it is, I will add them later (maybe)
Also have the devs been made aware that playing as some killers and against some killers on ping is pretty much unplayable? like playing singularity on ping for example is nearly impossible. It seems like a change no-one asked for and no one is enjoying so hopefully it is reverted.
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@Noobking3000 said:
From what I've gathered, it's an intentional change that happened at some point around versions 8.0.0 - 8.0.2 and wasn't mentioned in any patch notes I could find, meaning it was silently added (which hopefully means it's a test run to see if people notice and how they react to it instead of it being a permanent change, although this is probably just wishful thinking)
This change combines OCE and SEA regions into the same server pool to "reduce queue times" and "find people with a similar MMR to you more easily".
Now what I've noticed, is that it has neither reduced queue times or found players of similar skill to me. The only things this change has done is increase queue times (for me at least) and increase ping of most players to 150ms+
I'd add links to other forum posts and steam discussions that cover this issue in more detail, but this is my second post and I'm not sure if that's allowed. If it is, I will add them later (maybe)
Yea the que times are even worse i'd argue now because people just permantly dodge lobbies till they guess they are in a lobby of their own server, its completely unhelpful to the experience of either sea or oce survviors. Has anyone made any comments on this like the devs or anything?