Massquwatt
Massquwatt
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I think luck will probably end up being retired sooner rather than later, maybe by the end of the year if I were to guess. It just doesn't have a place in the game anymore and you can't rework it into anything without it being an immensely frustrating thing.
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As some people said, changing it to hook based requirements allows you to get some value out of it during a match rather than waiting for your teammates to die. I'm surprised they didn't do anything with left behind since it could probably use a little extra something during the match rather than it being one specific thing.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118463#Comment_4118463
I’m all for improved tutorials and I’ve advocated for killer bots in custom games for a long time so survivors can practice looping without learning entirely through trial by fire.
But I don’t think WOOs impact can be reduced to “people just need better tutorials.” It provides information in a game where that information constantly changes. From the maps, to map variants, to things you have no control over like used pallets. I wouldn’t be surprised if chase efficiency dips after the change, just like I’d expect killers to struggle if gen auras or scratch marks suddenly disappeared. Of course it’s possible for everyone to play without that kind of information, but the game is much more difficult and frustrating without it.
That’s why I’ve never understood the “run to yellow = brainless” argument. Killers use blood, scratch marks, gen auras and sound cues to reduce uncertainty all the time. Nobody seriously argues that a killer following scratch marks means they don’t know how to chase or a killer going to a red aura generator means they don’t know how to patrol a gen. Information about the resources around you is valuable regardless of whatever role you’re playing, and having that information doesn’t automatically mean you know what to do with it.
Sure but I think at some point information and RNG play into a larger part of the game than people are willing to admit, there's a reason why WoO is the most popular perk for survivors by a far margin and that's because it solves both issues of lack of information and rng and people develop a reliance on that. There's not a lot of ways around this, you either accept that sometimes you're gonna have to make judgements based on lack of information or alternatively we just make all maps have fixed loops and spawns from here on out eliminating most of the need for perks like WoO. I think most people will do fine without it if the changes stick and even if you continue using the perk you'll see windows and get the bonus vault speed which is fine.
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Looking over the arguments being made here and I don't know about you guys but if the nerfing of WoO means that the looping ability of survivor players goes down collectively because of it…I think it's time we look at other ways at trying to improve the looping skill of players rather than letting everyone's skill be dictated by a singular perk. cough improved tutorials cough.
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A lot of generic survivor perks got some really nice buffs though and overall that's a really, really good thing for newer players. Besides, the more new players lean away from WoO the better, I'd rather them take de ja vu instead because them knowing which generators to prioritize is a lot better for survivability long term rather than knowing which pallets to pre-drop.
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Yeah, I'm pretty much fine with every other change EXCEPT for BT. Although I speak from personal bias, it's pretty much the perk I use one everyone almost all the time and have done so far several years. It takes up a permament spot and it's muh baby….Please don't kill it, I genuinely cannot live without it.
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I don't think WoO has been a beginner perk for a very long time, it's just been the meta perk. Splitting it between itself and Five Moves is probably the best outcome and a whole bunch of generic perks also got some really nice buffs now so that's always great. But personally I'd rather more beginners run de ja vu than windows because the formers teaches them not to three gen which is arguably the more important knowledge to have first.
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I think the judgement would quite literally break 2v8. Aside from it being like shooting fish in a barrel survivors have a tendency to not….go for unhooks because everyone thinks somebody else has got it. I can't imagine the complete clownshow that'd be having 4+ survivors exiled at once.
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I feel like implementing a hard timer into the length of the match would just give killers a legitimate reason to tunnel as much as humanly possible.
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I would say pop is the better perk and works best with more mobile killers. Turn back the clock while not as good is nicer for low mobility killers. I actually really like using Turn back the clock with Nemmy because it helps you keep your momentum while the explosion itself notifies zombies keeping them around the area which is nice.
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I mean I can justify their choices for the Judgement's design easily.
We voted for it after all. -
@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113995#Comment_4113995
that's just irritating design that doesn't feel good to use, usually the perk is dead if it requires a time or resource commitment thats not just earned passively if history of the game is anything to go by.
I did outline one of those conditions could just a heal which in your words would count as being earned passively in the game. I'm not asking to tie it to chests or something silly like that, a heal is a more than acceptable condition.
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@Piruluk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113826#Comment_4113826
In modern dbd survivor perk design:
If you cleansed a totem and stunned the killer and opened chest and unhooked a survivor, then this perk activates for the next 30 seconds you can remove a debuff from a teammate. If removed a debuff you become broken and your aura revealed to killer for 60 seconds. If you arent downed remove broken.
After this the perk deactivated for reminder of the trial. The perk also deactivates once gens are powered regardless.
I never said it had to be an overly high cost, it could just be something relatively simple like just performing a heal to get a stack or something like that. You have to keep in mind with survivor perk balancing you always have to take cost into consideration because four survivors in the game so more powerful effects should naturally have higher costs associated with them.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
What really angers me is we have no alternative now for dealing with debuffs even if its a specific perk tailored to specific debuffs.
Bake faster status effect cleansing into Circle of Healing or something, like wth, why murder a supportive playstyle in cold blood with ZERO alternatives. I can understand the reason of it deals with too much, but do something or communicate your plans instead of just ripping it from us and going silent.
irritating.I think a better alternative would be to make a new perk entirely and give it some kind of condition and pay off. Like you meet some kind of requirement and interacting with a fellow survivor "cleanses" them of their negative statuses. I wouldn't tie the effect to a boon because it just runs the risk of being like Vigil again where it just passively affects you with very little interaction in the game.
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I don't see it as much and when I do see people with it they're a little more cautious about using it and I think that's fine really. Sprint burst's problem was ultimately that it a lot of people just used it as a crutch against their own poor positioning on the map.
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It would be a pretty bad idea overall for fairly obvious reasons. I'd be against it in all forms UNLESS I can use voice comms as the killer in which I will just blast memes and music just like the good ol' days with Half-Life DJ.
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Unless they're REALLY good with predictive beaming then most times when they try to beam you on a gen don't work out too well since you have enough time to react. It's also kind of a waste of time on their end and has the side effect of essentially telegraphing their position on the map at all times, whatever is gained from attempting to hit people off gens isn't really worth how much time you lose out on.
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Yeah I don't think that's really an issue with elusive, most killers for the longest time would know just to count to 10. A 10 or 15 second endurance off hook doesn't really deter tunnelling since you're still taking that hit regardless, the only scenario where the 15 seconds matter is end game when the generators are done. That being said the addition of elusive to unhooks is nice since it works in tandem with the unhooker to try and keep the killer's attention, as long as you unhooking people in the killer's face (if it can be helped) the effect really does help the unhooked to get away.
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I can't say that I'm too particularly sad over it. After all it gave you 66% faster recovery for nearly every single status effect in the game passively, in an AoE which is pretty silly when you really think about it. I believe it's still decent-ish since exhaustion recovery is always a good thing no matter what, could it have been handled better? Probably, but I feel like in order to keep vigil currently you'd have to rework a lot of killer powers to include very special, very specific status effects and making those special exemptions would possibly mess with the diminishing returns system on top. It's far too complicated to tweak so many different powers like that when it's just easier to remove all the extra baggage from vigil.
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I'd rather they just leave her be for the time being. She's not great but she's the only killer in the game who's a trap/stealth hybrid with real time tracking through the PDA. I'd rather preserve what we have out of uniqueness.
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Good ol' fashion exposure helps out a lot. When you play killer enough a lot of the stuff you see on doesn't phase you as much anymore and eventually it just becomes another one of those things.
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Generally I think it's a good idea although it needs to have short, important messages to get across and it shouldn't need more than 4-5 options. My biggest fear is that we end up with a bloated chatwheel and we end up in a situation where you're handing too much free information.
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I like it conceptually but on a practical level there's a lot to be desired which is a shame because dark maps look great. Hell killers like Springtrap would be awesome on that mode because there's an actual use case for the door cameras but why would you when it's just easier to smash your head against a gen and do it in like 40 seconds?
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Anti-camp is more like anti-facecamp and anti-close-proximity camp. In the case of Jason his power would genuinely get screwed over on maps like Midwich where teleporting on floors above or below a hook in the classroom/hallway would trigger the anti-camp measure for no reason.
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Apocalyptic Ingenuity is getting buffed? That's cool, I still kinda wish it's activation wasn't directly tied to chests though. I think having it on a 120 second cooldown or something while opening/rummaging chests cuts it's cooldown in half would be a way better idea. Those temporary pallets really aren't worth being tied to such a limited resource like chests considering that currently running the perk on the own can maybe net you…one pallet which is nuts.
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I don't really lithe getting touched at all in the future as there's a pretty good consensus amongst everyone that it's a fair perk for what it does. Your value from lithe depends on making a good read against the killer and rewards that. It's a lot more engaging than just the guy who's slowly walking away from you because you know he's just going to sprint burst and waiting that out or going against someone who actually knows how to 99% it and having that being an aggravating experience.
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SB's popularity is still going to remain, what they're shaving off in distance they're giving back in giving it an activation key apparently which makes saving it and using it demand a hell of a lot more better. I honestly don't see people giving it up even after the nerfs.
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@Leshi said:
It should honestly be reworked since it's constantly a problem.
Make it so totems take longer to cleanse at the start of the match for 90 seconds then goes back to normal cleanse time
I'd give it a new effect entirely, I'm just gonna spitball an idea that follows in idea with it's name:
Thrill of the Hunt - When a hex totem is cleansed, a dull totem is lit and every totem on the map gives you a 5% haste within a 16m radius. The effect remains until the Thrill of the Hunt totem is cleansed.
You could make it into a batteries not included but for totems. -
Honestly I would be OK if it got a rework into something more like it's namesake or something. Now that we're starting to get more hexes that are conditional on their activiation maybe giving it a strong new effect based on a hex totem being cleansed would be kinda cool.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102238#Comment_4102238
I'm just repeating what my original statement was actually aimed at, which was the specific take of whether BHVR listen to survivor complaints or just ignore them. Since the other stuff in this patch is aimed at addressing some survivor complaints, you can't really say they're outright ignoring survivors.
Whether their proposed solutions are good enough or whether they're picking the right complaints is a different conversation entirely, that's all.Though for the record, Elusive post-unhook is a pretty solid form of anti-tunnel. I'm not sure if reducing the duration of Haste/Endurance as well is a good idea, but adding Elusive is a pretty good stopgap before real structural changes can be made. It's also a direct response to people talking about how parts of the anti-tunnel PTB could be implemented, as far as I can see.
The solution to anti-tunnel isn't stacking more effects onto people. All we really need is just a 3-5 second unhook notifcation delay and we're pretty much golden.
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I think it's worth remembering in these blance mud flinging matches is that survivor balance and killer balance are two different ball parks because it's a you know, asymmetrical game. Killer perks typically have to be stronger because there's just one killer and those perks should be balanced around how it can affect up to the other 4 players. As for Survivor perks, a strong perk can be potentially up 4 times as strong if everyone runs it and that can severely affect the killer. Overall balance has been better now than it has been in the past and with the upcoming balance changes BHVR seems to be taking the diminishing returns more into consideration now so hopefully we'll get to see more individual perks get buffed on both ends but we'll have to wait and see until we get the full patch notes.
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The game counts the hatch escape as a neutral condition for matchmaking. For all intents and purposes a hatch escape is basically a pity escape for the last survivor. If it's closed and EGC begins, if the survivor manages to escape through the gates I think it counts as a win for them? Which makes sense because you've escaped through the worst circumstance. I don't think we should just be giving free escapes for the last survivor because it creates a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario for the killer.
Killer either shuts the hatch and potentially loses out on the last survivor through gates.
Or the killer camps hatch to prevent the survivor from making any meaningful moves.
It just creates a really bad dynamic overall. -
Kinda bad so far? But I'm waiting to see how it'll improve perk balance in the future. It honestly kind of sucks because you can't do fun silly stuff like running ultra-giga pickup Myers anymore and I'm the kinda person who likesto combo perks together and the new system just kills the fun of it.
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Balance changes are bit of a mixed bag I feel. Vigil and SB nerfs are great as SB in particular was kind of a brainless perk so having to be a little more selective about it's use is nice. Deliverance being nerfed is just kind of dumb, it never was an issue at all. coulrophobia I don't mind the nerf because I get it being a problem with slugging although I wish bhvr would add in an exemption so it doesn't affect healing downed survivors, WGLF only grants the healing bonus on downed survivors so they can totally do that.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100721#Comment_4100721
Which is still alot more practical agency compared to what the survivors can do. The killer is not forced to sit that whole timer despite peoples claims to the contrary, the killer can still earn points via powers or pallets, the killer can still get lucky with an idiot survivor (and we all know theres plenty of those). The survivors meanwhile can do what when they abandon? 4slugged/on hook: Crawl and pray that someones got a perk.
You know as well as I that if you give the abandon as soon as the endgame starts that alot of people will simply abandon right then and there because they THINK they can't do anything and "lost". People don't like to be rational on dbd.
Earning a pittance in points for power use/pallets is hardly what I call agency and neither is ushering out survivors to end the match. Giving an abandon with a replacement of an afk bot is a lot more respectful to both parties. The killer can skip the EGC and get a headstart on matchmaking while the remaining survivors can use that extra 2 minutes to complete any challenges they might need to do before leaving. A killer who thinks a game is lost is not going to engage with the match no matter how much you might disagree, the most practical solution is to just give them the bot so it doesn't abruptly end the match for survivors so their time is respected as well.
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It's been said before but I'll say it again a situation where EGC is in play and all survivors aren't hooked or slugged I think it's fair to have an abandon option as the game is functionally over 90% of the time anyway. Just replace the killer with an afk bot when they dip and it pretty much doesn't affect gameplay at all and both sides are basically kept happy in this outcome.
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I think the general problem philosphy wise is that mobility is king. It's an easy power to create, implement and most importantly, balance around. When you're fast you can get around to the objectives faster, it's easier for survivors to understand and play against. Dbd's problem for a while now is that things have shifted increasingly towards the chase aspect which is fine, I get that because the chase is the most exciting part. But when you focus on that killers who don't have great or even mediocre mobility suffer. Of course there's the alternative, killers who promote more macro-oriented play like Pig, sadako, Pinhead, etc. I want to see more of those but unforatunely survivors typically kind of hate going against killers that require to do something outside the dynamic of "gen/heal > chase > gen/heal > chase" etc, etc.
Unfortunately it's just kind of a self-fufilling prophecy. -
Reassurance is still a great perk. Regardless of hook timers and the camp meter you're still giving somebody an extra 30 seconds per stage on the hook at the end of the day. That's quite a lot of time in the grand scheme of a match and should never be sat on. Solo or not, it's best value is in it's consistence because it doesn't matter the situation if you still activate it your teammate is getting extra time regardless.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098669#Comment_4098669
I agree with you he does not need death by 1000 cuts but what about longer cooldown on how much he can use OE rather then a cooldown on time spent inside OE? (Would also avoid issue of him being spat out when he genuinely had no info)
I personally would like a 30 second cooldown on being able to use OE after coming out of it. Perhaps remove cooldown on hooking to not punish fast chases and would encourage him to chase more with spear rather then hurry back off into OE.
If that and totem mist was added I don't think I would have as much issues with Jason as I do. I don't like how survivors get any info while he is in OE but think that would balance it out.A 30 second cooldown on OE is honestly pretty excessive and not necessary, Jason already gets a longer cooldown on a successful Jump Scare so tripling it would just cripple him for no reason. I think the problem is more duration more than anything else and I suspect why there's no limit on the duration is because forcing jason to come out of it would be tricky to code around. If that doesn't work then I would say after 10-20 seconds in OE perhaps Jason can become more visible to survivors in a mist form or something so they don't feel as compelled to crouch around and do nothing.
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Hard tunneling sucks ass but the actual cases of real hard tunnelling off hook aren't as common as people might think it is. I think perception is pretty important to consider in these conversations as there's a huge difference between "I'm getting tunneled off hook" and "I happen to be at the wrong place during the wrong time". I think we're mostly balanced in that regard however I do think a good move towards preventing tunneling is to add a small 3 second unhook notifcation delay. It gives just enough time for survivors to move away from the hook without it being a free heal under hook either and if the killer wants to tunnel then they have dedicate MUCH more attention to the hook rather than defending gens.
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I dunno I feel like a lot of people's approach towards Jason seems to be "death by a thousand cuts" type changes. As he currently stands he's mostly balanced with most of his more aggregious stuff like Deputy's badge shaved down and fixed. Ultimately he only needs two real changes?
Remove the ability to see survivor's doing totems in OE.
Put a hard limit on time spent in OE by 20 seconds at most.
And that's pretty much it. -
Dead by Daylight by it's very nature is an assymetrical game so the power imbalance is always going to exist therefore the power role will always have that expectation in some capacity to perform to a standard. To be frank, outside of changing how the game works fundamentally BHVR can't really balance the anxiety out of the game. Unfortunately the issue of Killer anxiety will always be more of a social issue and it's not realistic to expect the playerbase as a whole to change their attitudes on each side, as sad as it might be.
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I'd say Scared to Death is the only bad perk, remove the basic-break requirement and it'd be honestly pretty good. Personally I like using Rampge with Endurance on Freddy, forcing survivors to drop dream pallets on you can be pretty sweet.
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@cogsturning said:
The portals. I actually don't mind any of the rest of it, but people who poof away as soon as they hear my terror radius drive me nuts. I would like them adjusted a bit.
Yeah going on this too. Everything else can be dealt with or some kind of counter but having people constantly prerun on your only to dip into portals is the most annoying stuff out because you absolutely know that following them is just gonna take you to somewhere you don't want to be.
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Hellraiser/Pinhead are back in Clive Barker's hands, right? From what I heard he's notriously hard to work with licensing wise and will be unlikely to do anything with BHVR in the future so the only hope is if they get it through another company like what they originally did.
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Eh, Jason's biggest problem really is the duration of the spooky mode. Hard cap it to 10-20 seconds and he's mostly balanced out.
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To put it simply. Do we need a DC penalty? Absolutely. Are there reasons why people DC and that we should address those? Also absolutely. Are those reasons to DC an argument to loosen or drop the DC penalty? Absolutely not. Realistically, it's simply unfeasible to address every single pain point that players have with the game and using it as a means to stop DC's is just silly. Eventually people are going to have to understand that Dead By Daylight at it's core is kind of a frustrating game.
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I think most of the effects are tolerable to go against, the only one I think is awful is the teleport/invsibility combo. Watching others abuse the hell outta the invisibility is kind of aggravating.
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I like it a lot but with diminishing returns it's lost a lot of it's luster sadly and franky doesn't have much of a use until the values get bumped up more. It was fantastic running it with forever entwined with pickup addons on Myers because you'd just YEET survivors onto your shoulders but yeah by itself it ain't worth it anymore.
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Huh? unless you're running perks specific to picking people up off the ground then you should just let people auto recover until they hit 95%. At that point Coulrophobia is not gonna make a difference.