Massquwatt
Massquwatt
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Considering that you can freely abandon the match if you get slugged twice(?) I think that's fair. That condition technically isn't game ending in itself so the scenario where the gates are open, all remaining survivors are at the gate should be grounds for an abandon for the killer. 99% of the time you aren't getting anything out of that scenario so there's no point in having to wait for them to leave. In that specific scenario, I think it should be allowed to abandon.
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The only real problem she has at the moment is how quickly you can attack after going into head mode. It should just be a tiny bit longer. The projectile really isn't an issue. Getting hit applies Leeched I and nothing more. Extra hits doesn't affect the infection rate in anyway, it purely exists just for the follow up in head mode so it being somewhat easier to land is OK.
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New Deerstalker is pretty interesting on Vecna since it gives you free aura reading based on what magic items survivors are using so that's pretty cool.
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As horrible as the changes are in a really funny way I've been having a hell of a time with Freddy. Because of the sheer amount of pallets it's also upped the potential spawns massively too, so some maps like the swamp basically allow you to place down 8 dream pallets right off the bat which is nuts.
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All they need are number tweaks again. Keep them strong but keep the limited uses, also change that green addon to give you an extra charge.
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I think it's generally agreeable that there's still stuff to do in making the game more enjoyable for both sides and doing those will reduce disconnects a little bit. However, that being said. The big disconnecting issue we see today is a result of poor attitudes than anything else. People aren't disconnecting because they find themselves in "no win" conditions all the time, they disconnect because they THINK they're in a "no win" condition. You've probably seen it yourself, a match that winnable but either your teammate or the enemy survivor just gives up and DC's or self-sacrifices themselves for no reason. And I don't know what Behaviour can do about that aspect.
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I feel like preventing matchmaking based on number of blocks could be pretty disasterous for both ends. Putting killer aside, one survivor with a lot of blocks from killers could potentially hold up the matchmaking of the other three and it wouldn't be obvious who that survivor is. It also doesn't take in account for survivors blocking other survivors which would further complicate matchmaking even more. There's also the issue of Anonymous mode because I'm pretty sure you can't block people using that, avoiding it entirely. Even with that all worked out, Overwatch did the same thing and had to remove the system because eventually too many people were just unable to play the game and I'd argue there's a huge difference between preventing someone from playing because they broke the rules and because they play like a knob. Whether you like it or not camping, slugging and tunnelling are NOT against the rules.
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Basekit Artist is fine, you can't change much there without it causing problems down the road. I'd look at giving her a small addon pass, something to spice up her playstyles and add more interesting things there.
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I mean I'd be more than happy to pay for Xeno's PTB theme. I actually like it a whole lot.
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Kit wise I think Myers is in a pretty good spot, most of his problems really are just the slaughtering strike and how awkward it is to use. Just make it a bit smoother and adjust some of the addons to make them more attractive and I think he'll be in a pretty great spot.
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I'm a little more worried about how liberal they're getting with those awful double pallet setups.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007884#Comment_4007884
No it's both. What is the actual point of the whole projectile if it's so easy and has no counterplay?
Like I said, the projectile is only one half of the power. The head form is the other, Leech I is there to enable the head form. The actual projectile itself is quite tiny and has a really heavy arc and since you're slow while charging it's fairly difficult to land direct hits around corners. That's why it's encouraged to bounce your shots off walls/props, giving it the autoaim is fair since the projectile itself does not damage survivors, it infects them to enable the use of the intestinal whip which is where the actual counterplay should be centered around.
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The autoaim on the spit really isn't an issue as the spit itself applies Leech I and nothing more, hitting players with the spit while they are leeched doesn't do anything afterwards. The spit only serves to enable the use of the head form since the leeched effect is entirely passive. Removing the autoaim just makes things uncecessirely harder for the Krasue and it's the head form that's the actual problem, not the human one.
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I think the auto-aim on the vomit is least aggregious part of her kit. After all once you're hit it puts you on Leech I and nothing more. It's not like plague where continuous hits increase the infection, once Krasue has you at Leech I it's entirely passive at that point. The vomit is there simple to enable you to get into head form and attack from there. I think it's fine for it to have auto-aim since the ability itself is only there to enable the other half of her kit, it doesn't need to be harder to do for no reason. It's the head form that actually needs balancing around.
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I feel like discourse on all platforms has taken a major hit across all social media platforms. It's either ragebaiting, incoherent screaming or downright passive aggressive snarkiness. I want to say it's been a main theme ever since the Walking Dead chapter where people are quite comfortable for just saying that the game's dead/dying and are looking for ways to lash out at bhvr or other people.
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Yeah it's really not a good change. The old values were great for killers with smaller TR but the new % values only really benefit Wesker I guess? Even Doctor, the perk he gets the most value from really doesn't benefit from the new values now.
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We'll definitely get ones for Plague in the future. Freddy is tough because the nightmare on elm street license is complete ass to work with.
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I think whatever data and feedback that was gathered was probably enough for BHVR to do readjustments, after all they said they're going to put the revised changes back into the next PTB and that's fair. I don't think people understand that this upcoming chapter was going to have a new killer/survivor, the Myers rework as well as both the Anti-tunnel and anti-slug measures. Like that's A LOT of stuff you can't account for in a single PTB. Because if we've all learned something it's that rushing everything like with the Walking Dead chapter is just going to leave a gigantic mess that'll take a year to fix. It's much better if they do the revisions and release each feature one at a time.
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Like it's always been, mostly a gamble. Because of it being a team-based role you're highly dependant on your teammates being good which they aren't most of the time. It's not entirely their fault but I think it goes to show that the tutorial mode should really get another overhaul, have it more comprehensive and use it as an opportunity to try and drill good habits into the heads of new survivors. It won't completely solve it but it'll go a long way to giving everyone a better time.
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I still use franklin's/weave on Pyramid Head. It's pretty devilish really, draw a trail over the dropped item and when they pick it up they get tormented regardless if they're crouching or not.
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It's kind of a tough balancing act to follow on really because you're adding an extra layer of balance on top of everything as well. The ideal solution is to give killers their own unique incentives for unique hooks but doing like 30 different effects on top of perk and addon balance is just unrealistic. I guess the only suggestion I can think of right now is that rather than having the single set of benefits from hooking you divide them up into categories? AKA depending on the killer themselves, some just give the haste effect from a hook, some get the gen kick bonus from a hook, some get the aura reading from a hook, etc. My logic is that not all killers are gonna benefit from having every effect and maybe you could adjust the numbers individually from there, but I dunno. it's a lot of work.
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The hope, or at least what I'd like to see is that we get another PTB with the adjusted changes so we can test them again after all that's the point of the PTB. But the general issues with the new systems appear to be that the anti-slug/tunnel stuff promoted extremely aggressive survivor play while enabling bad decision making (healing under hook). While with the killer hook bonuses, good in theory it's issue is that even with the reduced bonuses is still heavily empowers top-tier killers while not doing all that much for ones who already struggle like Trapper.
I think it should really be hammered here but the anti-slug, anti-tunnel, post-hook bonus systems are THE BIGGEST FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE THIS GAME HAS EVEN SEEN. And to that effect, I cannot stress enough that these changes need to be tweaked, changed and test A LOT before going live. Revamping fundamental aspects to the game in a rushed, half baked manner will only added months or even years more of uncessary work to unscrew the system. So please, anyone reading this please PLEASE encourage Behaviour to release the revised changes for the next PTB, test them and give them feedback. If we all do our part then we'll be a lot happier with the end product. -
At least from my experience the system was a little too restrictive for killers railroading them into a single playstyle and was a bit too forgiving for survivors by letting them just make bad plays. I think some things can be ported over to live like the hidden hook timer and delayed unhooking, that's the easiest to balance around but the anti-slug and anti-tunnel need more work. I can't say that I'm fond of having tenacity basekit because it enables cordinated players a little too well, personally I think the bigger issue overall is that we try to keep making perks basekit for both roles. I don't really like that but at the same time we can't just keep releasing more perks to bloat the pool anyway, admittedly I don't really know what the long term solution is for balance.
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Having the anti-slug measures, anti-tunneling measures, new killer, new survivor and myers rework all rolled out in a single chapter and NOT having it be a complete clown show is an unrealistic expectation to have. Behaviour did highlight these are for testing purposes and hopefully we'll get the chance to revisit those changes for the next PTB. In an indeal world they'd roll out the systems one at a time after enough testing and tweaks. Release the anti-slug first, then the anti-tunnel, etc. etc.
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Considering that (November's?) Chapter is getting delayed for more QoL patches I think it's safe to assume that we'll probably get revised numbers and changes to the anti-slug and anti-camp features for further testing and I would like to hope this is what behaviour has planned for us. We've seen them rush big changes before and it takes months for them to fix it. I'd rather they take the time to get the features as close to good as possible before launching them into the main game, the important thing is that behaviour update us on further changes and give us more opportunities to test them in the PTB.
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I'm not against the anti-tunnelling measures but what survivors get for free when taken off the hook is honestly a bit excessive. Because once you're off a hook you get:
A 10 second delayed notification to the killer
30 seconds of the following:
-Haste
-Endurance
-No scratch marks
-No blood pools
-No pain noises
-No killer instinct
-Seeing the killer's aura within 32 meters (Not sure if this is affected by open handed yet)
And if somebody else is using borrowed time, those bonuses go up to 42 seconds. That's nearly three quarters of a whole minute. Like you could just keep the delayed unhooking notification, the 30 seconds of endurance and haste and that'd be more than enough to discourage tunneling. I do think there's such a thing as putting too much into something and it almost feels like the game's just hand holding you? -
At this point, if survivors can freely abandon after being slugged twice I think it's more than fair to allow killers to abandon the match once the gates are open and no surivors are currently hooked/slugged. A very narrow timeframe but one that at least saves a little bit of time.
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I think it's going to be really hard to tell how good the killer changes will be until we get the numbers. Although the one thing that worries me is that they'll most likely further the gap between top tier killers and low tier killers even more now, even though it's reduced, blight will benefit from the built in bbq, haste and kick A LOT more than say, Trapper would. That and to shamelessly take one of otz's points, these changes don't exactly unlock new perk variety. You're still going to be running the same gen regression and block perks to keep up, now you'll just be relying on them more than ever now.
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Strong but fair. He can be incredibly powerful but making misplays with your powers can also be incredibly punishing too.
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Honestly I really love the camera mechanic and how in depth it is for survivors but holy moly is it the most optional thing ever. Most matches survivors will just go entire matches without using doors or cameras because why would ya? I really wish I had a good suggestion on making the cameras better without them just screwing over Springtrap's power entirely, I also think it's pretty funny that the batteries on the doors are so generous that you can have to go out of your way to drain them on purpose.
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Well I'm glad they finally got their charges as I believe that they should be in line with other items having limited charges. With that hopefully we can get a revert on some of the opacity nerfs to keep them in line of strong effects but limited uses, I'd also like to make suggestion of changing the green addon so it gives you an extra charge rather than making the fog expand faster because I don't think it's really that useful of an effect.
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I personally would like a cooldown, fragile pallets themselves aren't strong enough to warrant such a high cost because of their limited placement. However barring that I think an acceptable alternative would be to lower the chest/rummage to just once to unlock the ability. And a bonus I'd like to propose that you should be able to stack up to 3 pallets for use at any time because the most annoying part about the perk is all the back and forth you do between chests and the broken pallet to replace it, it makes it into a huge time waster.
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With the recent changes I'm very much in favour of making the fog thicker again but giving the vials limited uses in the match. My biggest problem with them is that people would misuse them by spamming them to avoid getting into chases altogether hoping the killer doesn't bother and leave. Hopefully with limited charges people can be more selective about using them.
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@SAWII said:
BHVR does not ban people for using (known) bugs. If it is bad enough, they will kill switch it…. Oh wait.
I believe people got banned for using Knight's teleport grabs when that was a thing. whether or not streetwise abuse is bannable yet I'm not sure, I suppose it'd be harder to prove unless you record somebody in the act of doing it with hoarder or something.
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Yeah I'd be fine with them having limited charges, if maps and keys have to have limited charges I don't see why it can't be the same for fog vials. Consistency seems to be another issue too, some maps they're relatively weak while others straight up blind you but I think it's dependant on the lighting. Killer interactions are wonky as hell too, Myers and Ghostie can't stalk through the fog, Singularity can't tag people even if the pod itself is in the fog and they're straight up useless against Dredge since he can see through the night shroud anyway. They definitely need a lot of tweaking going forward but I do like them.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but don't new keys also show the auras of shut hatches? Granted you have to use a charge to see it but being able to see the hatch and open it with the same key is kind of crazy. Makes left behind kind of useless now.
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@ThatRyanB said:
I appreciate the different perspectives in here! If you don't mind me interjecting to ask two questions (since I'd love to share this feedback with the team):
- What is one change that would increase your enjoyment of the Map item rework?
- What about for the Key item rework?
Honestly I'd like to see the map addon for tracking killer belongings come back. While it's not the greatest effect ever I did enjoy the interesting interactions where you could track things like trapper's bear traps, hooks and more importantly chests too. As for the keys I don't really have much to say about them, I think they're just okay.
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Fog vials really freakin' suck if you're playing as Myers/Ghostie or Singularity since the clouds can block your ability to stalk or tag survivors with your cameras. I hope they end up fixing that aspect at least.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973553#Comment_3973553
Skull merchant got nerfed because of her awful 3 gen potential, not because of her haste lol
Even after they got rid of chess merchant people were still complaining about her post-rework to the point that we ended up with what we have now. Her haste stacking and hinder being a sore point for a lot of people which is why those two aspects got nerfed the way they did. And with so many people complaining about clown's hinder they overbuffed the hell out of haste instead.
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I just think it's really funny that Skull Merchant got nerfed into the dirt because of her conditional haste (a tiny 2%? based on each recent scan) and moderate hinder (-10% after the third scan) and yet clown basically gets 15% and more worth of haste for free.
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I don't think ghoul is a great canidate for infectious, at least in terms of slugging potential. He still has to catch up to people and chase them down for the last hit anyway. You only ever really see infectious on Plague and Oni because they both have real snowball potential there. You can add a cooldown on the perk but I don't see why, it's not a super powerful perk or anything like that but if we have to then a slight 10-30 second cooldown will do.
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You only get one free DC a day don'tcha? That's fine so anyone who's ragequitting multiple games are just eating penalties and not being in games, that's fine in my book. I don't see actual ragequitting all that much these days anyway, more like people going afk but that can be fixed by completely ignoring them. Eventually once they realize you're not going to hook them they'll re-engage with the game again.
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Ghoul's in a pretty tricky spot, he's gotten nothing but nerfs since release but I don't know what else you can do to him that isn't just outright kneecapping him forever. The number changes are probably as close as you can get without making him feel like complete ass to play too. You can't rework him either because he'll just changed into something more boring overall. My only suggestion I can offer is to remove the pallet vaulting and replace it with a pallet break like Blight/Wesker's iri addon.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964561#Comment_3964561
Its just missing the bigger picture of it is all. Its not a lost match
Its basically suggesting for someone to body block an iri hatchet huntress thats tunneling, and then expecting her to hook you instead of just slug you and continue on with her tunnel.
You gotta think more macro about the match than just micro plays like an exit gate being powered. Or taking a hit against an insta down killer that is hardcore tunneling.
Theres more to the match than just "the exit gates are powered the match is over" and "you should throw yourself at the killer and expect her to hook you"
It would have been a massive mistake to attempt body blocking the huntress in my scenario as it would just add to her kill count. And then probably result in a 4k in the end. Gotta think more macro than just whats directly on the cards in the moment.See, that's the thing. I don't play Huntress let alone iri hatch Huntress. If the gates are open, all the survivors are there healthy and all then why can't I just abandon? I know it's a lost game, they know it's a win. I can still choose to do something about it but in the final 2 minutes of the match I think it's safe to say I'm not getting any more hooks so I think it's fair to abandon and move onto the next match.
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It's weird how it's so controversial. If the gates are opened and survivors are at them, I think it should be grounds for an abandon because outside of sheer stupidity it's basically a lost match. Just like how all survivor's being incapcitated is basically a lost match for them, why people are so insistant on allowing one but not the other I'll never understand.
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Yeah I'm pretty fine with the current anti-go-next system, it can always use tweaking but overall my quality of matches has gone up. Do I still get bad matches? Yeah, but your average survivor match is around 10-15 minutes and if I'm having a ######### time I just go take a break and come back the next day or something. You can even see killer averages starting to go down slightly too now that people are comitting to their matches rather than just giving up at every percieved slight against them, it's incredible. I just think it's insanity to perform these Herculean feats of argumentation to keep what is, an objectively bad system. (Sacrificing yourself on the hook to inflate killrates.)
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I have to be honest but I'm not entirely sure where people were coming from with the first iteration of the AFK crows. Unless I've always been a VERY active survivor player I've never once gotten crows since it's implementation. And from my perspective on killer matches I've only seen somebody get the crows once because they were afk for 5 minutes. I have to wonder what people were (or weren't) doing to gain crows in their matches because I've hardly experienced them or seen anyone experience them. The only way you're getting them was if you're just spending 2 or more minutes at a time doing nothing.
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I really don't think there's much you can do about tunnelling except for fundamentally changing the flow and objectives of the game. As it currently stands it's the killer's job to kill survivors and the survivor's job is to escape, one feeds into another. If you kill a survivor early then their chances for escaping are much harder but if all the survivors are still alive at 1 gen then their chances of escaping are much higher. People naturally want to win so tunneling a byproduct of that, whether it's hard tunneling or more tactful tunneling just depends on the player.
The only way you can change it is to reworker the killer's role so it's just purely about the hooks and killing is out of the equation. But that isn't very fun nor exciting. Alternatively you can pile on more basekit perks for survivors, but that isn't very fun either. I do support giving the unhooked survivor no collision as that'll eliminate a lot of annoyances but outside of that there really isn't much you can realistically do without just taking a huge dump on what makes playing killer fun, killing people.
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@Scarlett1111 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949185#Comment_3949185
If he just couldn't use the doors for the duration of the reveal from the camera it would be extremely balanced. He is only revealed for 10 seconds. But this is just a blanket fix for bigger balance issues he has.
Yeah I agree with the above poster too. Survivors could just escape chases through doors for free if springtrap was prevented from entering them. It also creates the secondary problem of him being a noobstomper where solos have a hard time contending with him while SWF's can just completely neuter him with coordination.
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Probably not a great idea, preventing him from using the doors entirely would just mean that survivors have free, unimpeded movement around the map which would be pretty over the top punishing for the killer. The point of the doors is that they're meant to be high risk, high reward for survivors and something you have to keep checks on as the killer.