Judgement is Guess-Slop Garbage
This killer is legit Henry all over again, just pure guess work.
Killer guessed right (or aura perk) and spawns the ray under your feet? well ya getting hit with no counterplay
Killer guesses wrong by a few metres? well ya make a few metres distance til she tries another guess
literally everyone hates henry and you make him all over again, plus all the interaction (flash saves, sabos, pallet saves, wiggle in general is all useless so theres inherently just less interaction
this killer is simply annoying and not fun. dont be surprised when people AFK this shiii
Comments
"guess slop"? Every single Damm killer in this game is "guess-slop" guessing what the other player does is in every single pvp game dude
Yes, Guess slop. you guess blindly through walls and hope it hits. DEFINITION of guessslop
I think they are pretty unique honestly, sure could use some refinement but they aren't slop
Not “literally” everyone hates Henry. I like going against him. I also like going against Judgment, and so do a lot of other players.
The “guess-slop” as you call it is what makes it fun for many people. Looping any killer or chasing any survivors in this game is “guess-slop”. You are always trying to get a hit or dodge a hit by guessing that they are going to do. Pretty much every game in existence, whether it be video games, board games or sports, have various degrees of guessing what your opponent is going to do and that’s what makes it fun. If you don’t enjoy trying to guess what your opponent is going to do, I can’t think of any game that is going to be fun for you
100% this
So we're just calling anything slop now huh.
Is it guess slop if i wait out dead hard?
Litterally a good chunk of what you do in this game is guessing, if you think using your brain when facing the judgement equates to guess slop, then the concept of pvp itself is guess slop and that just sounds utterly ridiculous.
Executioner is sad you forgot about him guessing through walls first.
Words lose meaning so quick nowadays
Literally every PVP game…
Is…
Is anyone gonna tell him about 50/50's and mind-games?
Also, it's kind of hard for anything to take this seriously when you say things like 'DEFINITION OF [term-i-just-made-up]'
There is no definition of Guess-slop. It's a made up term. I googled it to be sure, and sure enough, no such term. But on that note: welcome to PVP games.
Judgement guessing?
Warning that J is starting the cast. You can see the aiming help. Irs ahuge friggin visible laser. Its aurais revealed itself to you.
Im sorry but you dont guess, you react to the laser
you can literally see beam through walls…
Yeah skillful gameplay is slowly being erased in this game for guesswork 50/50 gameplay. People will argue that other killers have 50/50 guess work but that’s precisely the problem, too many killers now and too much of the gameplay is 50/50s.
I think he's clearly arguing that 50/50s are bad for the game as a whole.
Old legion was unique should we bring them back because they were unique? Or how about ptb twins? Or how about old nurse? Old spirit?
Legion also got refined though, how about you stop inserting words in other peoples mouths and just say your own opinion.
I'm not saying they shouldnt get changed but the core concept of the killer is fun, it just needs changes.
Legion got completely reworked not just refined. The equivalent for judgement would be making his power only put survivors into mending rather than downing them.
How is the core concept of the killer fun? Its hella boring for survivors cause there's no looping, no adherence to standard gameplay, the killer ignores half of their perks, its easy to get tunneled. You can get crossmap sniped constantly with extremely unreliable counterplay. You cant play altruistically at all against this killer. You can't go for bodyblocks. You can't use windows or pallets, survivors main rescourse, at all. You can't flashlight save. You can't use pallets. What is there thats fun or interactive about this killer exaclty?
This is complete nonsense on almost every level. Predictions, pattern recognition/playstyle adaptation and reaction baiting are all skills, and have been integral to what skill even looks like in DBD for the games ENTIRE lifespan, down to the fundamentals of playing an M1 killer in the first place. What even defines '50/50s' here from the two of you? You have a pig avatar, so I'll start with that. Are vibe checks to bait people to leave tiles 'guesswork 50/50s'? What about mindgaming tiles while hiding your red stain for M1 plays? Are ambush reversals 'guess slop' because they rely on predicting whether or not your opponent is going to react a certain way and can be countered?
There are skilled Henry players who are hitting the majority of their shots in the majority of their matches, including ones behind cover without aura reading. There are skilled survivors who are able to run average Henry players for pretty extensive lengths of time and reliably dodge their M2s. Are you or OP going to sit there and say these players are just rolling dice all game and HAPPEN to get lucky constantly, across dozens or even hundreds of matches? If you're going to say yes to those, but not to Pig, where do you draw the line between them? Frankly this all seems to be 'fighting games are just button mashing!' levels of cope.
Theres a huge difference between 50/50 style predictions and pattern recognition gameplay and rock paper scissor style gameplay or more advantaged prediction based gameplay. Lets take a good killer like huntress for example. Imma credit someone who neatly explained this to me but let me demonstrate.
Lets start with your example of mind gaming tiles whilst hiding the red stain. Red stain mindgames are not 50/50s, they are many options available for survivors and killers. Survivors can double back, commit or break away, there's many directions of play they can make. Killers can predict this play and subsequently make moves to predict survivor movements or trick them. Survivors can subsequently predict these predictions and the loop goes on. Its a complex series of predictions but also recognising playstyles of different players, adapting to movement etc. Good survivors and cool killers can abuse the red light, movement, check spots, walking techniques etc which introduces a whole range of interesting gameplay interactions.
Lets go to some killer powers that are not 50/50s and i'll explain why. A character like huntress always has a beatable option and a drawback for committing to an option. For example, a huntress drawing up her hatchet is something she needs to commit to, and has drawbacks associated with it. Sure the act of do i or do i not drop the pallet against a huntress is a 50/50, but there's a million other interactions and predictions that can be made before you get into that situation. The gameplay around dropping the pallet on huntress also is not a 50/50, you can run through the pallet, drop the pallet, hesitate at the pallet to bait a windup and then continue running, you can hesitate and then pretend to run and then actually dodge. And just like the m1 mind game example there's limitless interactions and predictions that both the killer and survivor can make regarding each other’s movement and play, rewarding smart and mechanically skilled players.
For Billy, there's many options for both players in chases once again. If you're at a loop, he can flick you tightly, he can go wide with the chainsaw, he can predict you going wide and go wide himself, he can predict a break away, a survivor can predict him going wide and hug the loop regardless or play around corner pockets, they can utilise crouch techs and either side can predict crouch techs and play accordingly. There's a much greater depth to the interactions which can be made between the players.
Even the pig example you can fake dashing around a loop or commit to the loop and react accordingly, you can break to the loop, you could even pretend to play the loop and then drop the pallet, you could utilise a window set up. Many potential outcomes in a chase.
Henry is not entirely luck based but there's a very low and set skill cap to his killers power and interactions with the survivors. Once killers and survivors understand how it works, it comes down to whether the killer can hit the power or not. Survivors don't get much of a say in this interaction, they try to frantically and randomly dodge hoping that the killer misses the power. There's no adapting to the movement and play styles of the other play when playing either this killer or survivor, no drawback to using the power or making predictions, it's simply a waiting game for when the killer is good enough to hit their power consistently. Thus, all his chases end up playing out the exact same way.
You can body block her, by bodyblocking her herself, to obstruct her vision of the one you are trying to protect, I take m1's to save others with duty of care overcome all the time against her.
You're just talking in extremes, there is issues, you're just being really negative about her.
Get off tiktok and read some books, I beg you
It’s not so much words losing their meaning, as much as having such a small active vocabulary (meaning words they use regularly) that they describe everything with the same word.
There will come a time where the need for nuance overtakes the need for convenient and “humorous” expressions.
(They also spelled it wrong. Since it’s a neologism (a new word), spelling it with a hyphen “-“ is unusual, as hyphens are typically reserved for established phrases, eg., salt-and-pepper, or turn-of-phrase.)
Ur kidding you genuinely thing that you can body block against a judgement with a brain? That's insane. Your legit just giving her a free hit if you're doing that, even worse probably a free down if they are half decent. She can also just ignore you and shoot the person she's tunnelling.
And by your logic, you can body block against a bubba by blocking his vision!
I strongly disagree with the idea that characters like Henry or Judgement have low skill ceilings or aren't interactive. While I'm not confident enough to come out with a called shot on whether we'll see some kind of disgusting tech on Judgement specifically or not in the future, Henry doesn't really have 100% setups unless you're animation locked or in an incredibly tight corridor with him body blocking you, and you have a lot of room for skill expression and mindgames even on the micro level on both sides, its just not strongly tied to traditional tiles or how they're usually played. I think you are REALLY oversimplifying these interactions.
The way someone uses line of sight breakers and whether Henry is able to predict their movement, how long the Henry holds after the initial sound indicator and whether a survivor can stay calm and react to when they finally use the M2, how much distance you're getting for each dodge and whether you use that distance effectively, where specifically you are dodging to and why, whether you're making use of open space or putting yourself in a bad position by committing too obviously - these are things each player can get into the other's head about, and can try and condition their opponents with. There are survivors who are skilled at dodging these M2 shots, even against good Henry players, and they're not achieving that on accident or by just haphazardly rolling their hands across their controls and hoping he misses.
Its easier to watch skilled Henry players streaming and focus on the survivors in the matches they lose to get an idea of what I mean - just because survivors aren't really making "VS. HENRY (or judgement)" compilations outside of like, maybe the first week or two of their release, though I'd like to see more of that - but they're not just jittering around randomly and praying, they're making intentional decisions that get them results. Playing vs. Henry (and Judgement) can be particularly difficult partially because its an entirely new skill you have to learn! The survivors in these winning vs. losing (or even winning but much closer) matches aren't just getting gambled on, they're playing in very different ways.
Look if you can show me a survivor player who can reliably and consistently juke a henry and last decently in chase i'm all ears, but I'm get to see it.
You made some statements there like "survivors need to stay calm and react, don't dodge too obviously" well the first one isn't true because his attack is literally unreactable if he's patient with it, and there's a difference between dodging not obviously and skillfully and dodging sporadically and randomly.
When you say that survivors beating vecna are making intentional movements that get them results can you show me examples of this? Survivors can beat Vecna by running to corners and just wasting time provided they get a good map and get a few lucky shots but i dont see reliable counter play at all.
When you mention breaking line of sight as a counter strategy, that only works against nurse as she's slower than survivors and has to fatigue after every power usage. Vecna does not, and he's 110, not 95.
So, its going to be difficult for me to find this sort of content from the survivor POV, especially from the survivor POV against an average or upper-middle Henry where the skill difference is going to be more pronounced. Those channels (or at least the ones I watch regularly) don't tend to have tagging system or character focuses in their videos, and kind of by nature I'd need to comb through a LOT of stream footage because they face a whole bunch of different killers.
What I CAN do is grab you a video from a dedicated, very skilled Henry player that showcases a couple 30~40 second chases with distinct differences in their movement both between levels of the survivors and the good survivor's own very different chase outcomes, and where the Henry notably adapts over time…as long as you're willing to deal with an admittedly obnoxious clickbait thumbnail and title combination from a creator I enjoy, if you'd like. (They do a specific editing style that I love but can barely find creators for, I've still not found a single survivor channel that does it despite searching for it and even most of the killer ones have stopped or changed styles.)
it's not guessing if you have empathy and think "what would my victims do?" Patience can be a virtue
I think the word 'slop' has officially lost all meaning.
Okay I'm happy to look just send a link or something.
It's difficult to find from the survivor pov however because its not reliable, you don't see comp players or likewise demonstrating and showing their skills against henry.
Like I said, the titles and thumbnails are always a little (or more than a little) obnoxious but the videos themselves are quite good IMO. I really wish I could find more channels that do the no voice with text commentary thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tohymR42Io4There are a lot of throughlines between survivors in the videos across their channel that are able to take longer chases, and this is a dedicated Henry specialist (though not a complete one trick) who plays on Hong Kong servers.
Also, being real, Henry just isn't that popular. I've gone to the stream of someone I consider a fairly skilled looper in the general playerbase rather than the extreme end with the comp scene (Cope ((the person)), if you're familiar at all) who streams multiple hours of the game frequently, and they almost never SEE Henry in their matches. While I skimmed because I'm not going to spend hours and hours looking or anything, I've genuinely seen more Onryo than Henry during their streams. Across 20+ hours of footage you might find 3~5 matches against the character, and the 1v4 means they're only going to be chased occasionally…not exactly easy to grab footage from that POV.
But, given you're talking comp players, lets talk comp players. Knightlight is known for calling Henry casino gameplay! So, its settled! …Until you actually pay attention to his mechanics instead of the talk on stream. When he's locked in, he's paying attention to the ground and directly reacting to M2s, dodging in specific ways on purpose that WORK, and is outplaying Henry in chase to last long in ways that are DIRECTLY similar to a lot of the successful survivors/strategies you'll see doing well in chases against people like ILoseToWin. If you wanted to go through KnightLight's footage and stitch together his matches against the character, somehow I doubt you're going to see him taking it seriously against average Henry players and just getting dice rolled to death on the regular, or see significantly less skilled players get the same results if you were to put them in these chases just by slapping their keyboards. I mean, you can compare him to his solo queue teammates in these exact matches, even.
Even if you want to say 'well, going AGAINST Henry takes skill, its PLAYING the character that has a low skill ceiling' why do we see specialists or highly skilled killer players getting outcomes that the general playerbase aren't? If you're willing to burn out your retinas watching his awful filters, do you think an average Henry is going to see even remotely close to the same kind of results as people like OnePumpWillie over the long term? That if a slightly above decent player tries their best with some practice added on, they're going to end up tossing out winstreak numbers in the triple digits on the character, or that they'll get the same chase results but eat dirt on the macro level exclusively?
Okay thanks for at least sending me something. I wanna engage in this not as an argument but to try and show you my perspective and what I mean when i talk about this killer and the judgement. But I have to call out why I think this video doesn't demonstrate what this killer actually does. Also I know this is only one video so I'm not fully judging off that just making assertions off the video.
Sure this killer player plays alot of Henry and he's not Terrible but do you think this guy played really well this game? Or even just pretty decently? And do you think the survivors played well? Just start from there okay.
Watching this video this guy from my Pov made aLOT of silly mistakes that made the game alot closer than it should have been. He took alot of pot shots and missed lots of them, which was unlucky but also mistakes by him because he took alot of unnescasery risks, which he even mentions himself at one point in the video. He also makes alot of terrible macro mistakes involving bad slugs etc that cost him alot of pressure. Not relevant to Henry himself but to the result he gets which is part of the discussion on his power level. Most important I don't think he's always aiming correctly. He also aims a decent chunk of his shots really poorly and impatiently. Take the time stamp 1:35 for example. Over the next minute during this chase starting with his first shot he wildly misses many attacks, where it's quite possible to be slightly more patient and at the very minimum get a shot that's likely going to hit, let alone guaranteed. Infact he ends up just m1 downing this Cheryl because he missed so many. You could say that she "played well" but what did she do that was different or unique from other players? Or what made her so smart in this chase? She kind of just moved around sporadically around that shack, got lucky when he whiffed a significant number of his shots pointlessly and then just died anyway. Despite these things as well, there's alot more I could go into, he still ends up winning regardless, with quite a mediocre build and average macro.
I'm interested to see this knightlight gameplay you are talking about and granted I'll need to look into it, but having some lucky chases or randomly good chases doesn't mean the killer isn't still a 50/50 uninteractive machine. I'd be willing to bet that Knightlight gets 2 tapped in just as many chases as he last a while despite playing the same way with the intentional and smart and decisive movement. T
Regarding your last paragraph I don't think going against Henry or playing against him takes much skill. When you play henry, you'll notice that its the survivors who don't look behind themselves, who aren't aware of their own or the killers movement and don't think intentionally about their movements that are harder to chase than the survivors with deliberate and precise and smart movement.
I might try and record some gameplay of my own to show you some of the things i mean in regards to mechanics and aiming etc, but we should continue this discussion, I think it's important for you to understand what I'm saying and demonstrate it.
Yes, I do actually think she is deliberately baiting out certain called shots and reacting in ways that are hard to read, I think those things are explicitly a skill, and that these players are doing it deliberately and with intent. Some players might execute it better at a given time across games or the like, but its not just random. The fact that Henry isn't super common and there aren't a lot of compilations against him that have taken place is unfortunately roadblock. Like, essentially having to rely on the perspective of the killer makes this a frustrating conversation in ways that are obviously not your fault, unless you've running some kind of secret anti-Henry world programme I don't know about (likely collaborating with the shadowy organization that keeps fog vials undertuned, I'm on to you), and it means I tend to have to pull footage from the Henry players themselves.
I also come from a fighting game background, where there are - across a lot of different games and subgenres - very small interactions and mindgames that might seem random to an outsider that are very much intentionally done with intent. When I see players pre-emptively juking backwards when cutting near a corridor or LOS blocker, I don't see a gamble, I see the same decision making that goes into (just as a random example) a shimmy, or a safe jump against a player or character who likes to DP jump-ins, even if the interactions are much more simple in DBD than in fighting games. A lot of interactions with Henry especially feel the same way from both sides, and while I'm not personally a fantastic player or anything, when I do well against Henry (or on Henry!) when people are even bothering to try and counterplay eachother, its often because I'm baiting out specific reactions on purpose and then taking advantage of them. Going back to an earlier example you gave, I also don't really see the distinction between a good Billy player reading a flare-out and getting the down by cutting wide on purpose vs. a Henry reading a double-back and getting a hit for it, same with the opposite interactions and results from the survivor POV.
Can you give me an example of a Henry player that you would describe as good - even in your position of Henry being a low skill ceiling character - that is not making 'silly mistakes' in your opinion, that is losing chases to people behaving randomly?
If you come from a fighting game background you would know that good fighting games involve complex interactions and rock paper scissor style gameplay. This is why street fighter 6 is highly critised as the gameplay felt more 50/50 than complex 3 or 4 way interactions.
A good Vecna' can nearly always hit you if you simply try to react to his shots, it's quite literally unreactable. Thus, your option as a survivor is to predict when the shot is going to happen and pre-emptively dodge. The gameplay then becomes a 50/50 at every opportunity because its either "is he going to shoot and i dodge" or "is he not going to shoot and i don't dodge". The whole pathing aspect and direction of movement is rather irrelevant because it doesn't matter which direction you go, its either predict the shot and go any direction or don't predict the shot and get hit. Just to bring it back to that billly and huntress example, the direction you dodge and the movement you make absolutely DOES matter against these killers, whether its breaking away, playing around obstacles, going super wide or just a little wide, taking a 3rd pathing option etc. These things don't matter against Vecna, cause it doesn't matter where you dodge, only WHEN you dodge. That's the whole argument against his RNG gameplay.
I don't know any Vecna players cause like you said not many people play this killer much, because the skill ceiling is rather low and top players find the gameplay stale and luck based. But I can demonstrate what I'm trying to show you about how you aim the vecna power in a custom or something if you want. I will try and even get some footage to show you the ways you can aim and be patient and abuse the hitbox but also the spam ability.
Also is there a DM's system in the forums or something? I have a game I just played I'd like to show you I just put unlisted on YT.