Withered8
Withered8
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Do you know how broken it would be if he could spawn 3 guards at once….
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738804#Comment_3738804
What does this have to do with anything? You asked for things to do against Billy in chase... I said go watch those guys, they know what to do against Billy in chase and now you tell me it is not valid because they are comp players and also do stuff against other strong killers??
My man if your logic is that you cannot do those things they are doing because you don't play comp level, sure fair enough, you don't have 10k hours to spare or whatever other valid reason... But that is by definition a skill issue... If you cannot be asked to learn and practise counterplay for specific killers then you cannot complain about there not being counterplay... Because you are ignoring the existing things because you don't want to learn those things because they are too hard or too time consuming or whatever... Come on man that is not reasonable... (it is reasonable to not want to spend the time to learn those things, but it is then not reasonable to complain about missing counterplay.)
This was not about the strenght of the killer but about the things you can do against him.
I thought we were discussing whether billy is S tier or not.
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@LeFennecFox said:
Spirit being over billy is criminal & you could argue that he's better than blight especially with double iri nerf
Agree you could, this is a very conservative placement of billy. To be honest billy spirit and blight are all very close in power level atm, i think that they each are better in some scenarios.
People in here will tell you that Billy is A tier tho lol.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
At the very least, there should be 3 separate tier lists: 1 for overall, 1 for the top 5% of MMR, and 1 for the literal 6000+ hour comp players.
Having only one tier list isn’t very useful, and very often gets misused. For example, an average MMR survivor isn’t really playing against S-tier Nurses, because Nurse isn’t S-tier at average MMR. It would be much more helpful if each player could just use a tier list that was personally relevant to them, instead of using a comp tier list that involves 0.0001% of the total players.
I agree with this.
However at leats a comp player tier list accurately refelcts killers at the highest level, which is what is most interesting about them. However yes it would help to make lists for other players as well.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738610#Comment_3738610
Thats not at all how it is, because even if he sees you he does not know what you will do because you don't move that early... Just watch what comp players do against him, it is really not as bad as you are making it out to be... Even in comp Billy is nowhere near a guaranteed win for the killer.
Comp players also do things to blight and spirit and nurse, does that make those killers not S tier? No way. Even if you don't think billy is stronger than blight or spirit he's way stronger than any A tier killer like artist or chucky by a mile.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738258#Comment_3738258
Well you basically decide to go close or wide towards the loop, making an assumption whether or not the killer will curve further out or close towards the loop. Depending on whether or not he has he is in overdrive you need to take that into account because he cannot curve as close to the loop because of the increased speed. In addition to that you can crouch his saw so you don't get clipped by its edges. It really is the same as it always has been. It just got another layer because his overdrive is not always on it means you need to take that into account as well and adapt it into what you do. You can watch some comp footage of how they play against him or maybe the showcase Hens did some time ago when the increased curve window was rather new.
What do you mean by it doesn't matter if you miss saws? You go into cooldown, the survive can reposition... You want overheat back or what?
Not it actually does not mean that... If you buff a killer it can also just make his power more versatile without necessarily removing counterplay. Just because the power can work at different tiles now does not mean it cannot be countered the same way as before.
But the problem is, if the Billy can see you around any loop this doesn't work at all if the billy has half a brain. If your on a loop he cannot see around its a 50/50 at best, some billies will know how to tilt this even more in their favour. And even if you dodge or crouch it, you'll take an m1 in the back before making it to the pallet because of the recovery time. THe reason it doesn't matter if you miss is because you'll either get m1'd or he'll just take another shot at chainsawing you if he miss's, if he plays right the recover is so minimal you can't do anything about it.
In comp Billy is so strong that he's the only killer in the game who doesn't need to run corrupt which is insane. If you watch anyone like xeno for example play billy in comp its a complete blood bath, there's no chance of escaping.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/416980/killer-tier-list-8-00
Are we talking with all add-ons considered? Across all maps? Controller or M&K? Or both?
Addons are considered but its not a direct comparison between best addons, all maps, Keyboard not controller
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738209#Comment_3738209
You forgot about going close or going wide when trying to avoid a curve, making it around the corner is not that easy.
Ofc it is useful, but that alone does not suddenly turn him into a beast, you still need the overdrive to curve most things, there is a reason people ran double engravings and it is because it was basically required to curve most tiles... So 10% is not enough on its own to do that.
It offers the possibility to curve more tiles, sure, but his usual counterplay still applies, all it does is give Billy more options.
Curving is mostly about control, you need to have the skill to steer the right amount during the initial curve window, while all that stuff helps it does not suddenly become easy. There is a reason why Billy is the hardest killer in the game and the effort that goes into learning how to properly curve tiles is enormous.
His map mobility is a bit better, but I don't think that part matters too much... His mobility is still hindered by the same stuff as before, just as bit less because of the collision improvement.
I don't think the comp players put him in S tier... I'd argue they still think Blight and Spirit are better because crouch tech exists, without that maybe. He is really strong now sure, but he still has counterplay and you seem to forget the effort that goes into mastering him... It is only fair that the opposing side needs to put in is equal to the effort the killer player has to put in and if you argue a master Billy is too strong then you can only compare that to a master survivor player. Everything else is not a fair comparison... And before the changes nobody played him because he was the hardest killer to player and really weak at the same time... It is great to have more Billy's again :) his counterplay is still the same as before and it is fun, it is just that you won't get away as easy anymore, you are not as heavily favored as before.
Those buffs matter to his strenght, but they don't matter to his counterplay, because it is still available, working and effective if you do it right. You just cannot be as sloppy as before and get away and the Billy does not need superhuman precision anymore to have a chance to get a saw. I think that's fine.
What's the effective counterplay against new billy? I don't see much other than dropping every pallet instantly.
Once again i'd agree with you if this was old billy, but new billy is so much easier because he's wayu more forgiving, it doesn't matter if you miss multiple chainsaws anymore.
Also if you buff a killers strength, it means youve removed counterplay or made it more difficult to counter the killer.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738173#Comment_3738173
Might be true if crouch tech was not a thing... Because of this his hitbox is really small.
It's quite easy for a billy to predict or play around crouching, plus even if someone crouches you it doesn't matter that much because the cooldown is super negligable. Crouching is the only chance you have at a loop to not get hit everytime pretty much but it's not exactly reliable. Crouching a blight or a demo is alot more punishing for the killer.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738165#Comment_3738165
The charge speed is reduced by 5% and only in Overdrive. Otherwise it's exactly the same as it was before. 5% of 2.5 seconds is 0.125 seconds. That's really not that big of a deal for something that only happens in Overdrive.
The movement speed while charging remains unchanged. It was 3.68 m/s and it still is 3.68 m/s.
His base movement speed also remains untouched. They gave his chainsaw a 10% speed buff from 9.2 m/s to 10.12 m/s and in Overdrive 13 m/s. You have a very audible clue for when that happens and you can also clearly see it because his chainsaw emits blue flames.
The curve window was increased from 0.75 seconds to 1.0 seconds. That's a 33% increase. It's a lot but not gamechanging.
He could go straight for 0.25 seconds before and still get the 90° turn. The difference is not as significant as you think.
Zigzag curves have always been a thing. The longer curve window doesn't do much when it comes to this part of his gameplay.
Curving itself wasn't changed and I have no idea what you mean about being easy now. It's still the exact same mechanic it was before. The difficulty didn't come from the 0.75 seconds turn window but from the highly increased sensitivity, which remains the same.
I already covered everything there is about Overdrive.
The cooldown before the rework was 3 seconds. Now it's 2.5 seconds. That's a 16.67% difference. It's noticeable but again not that crazy considering he was overly punishing before.
The bumping penalty is 2.5 seconds of moving at 1.84 m/s second and not being allowed to do anything else for that time. Again, he was overly punishing before, now he is pretty forgiving but still fair considering his counterplay.
He didn't really have limitations on his map mobility and power usage anyway. At least not for good players. They had already toned down overheat to the point it didn't do anything other than unnecessarily nerfing DriftKing Billy, which is a meme build.
Before you make such a list, at least fact check that stuff. About half of what you said is simply not true and the other half is grossly exaggerated. All of these things add up to a killer that is very strong, no doubt. But we are talking about a killer that was considered C-tier (sometimes even low C-tier) before and is now A-tier just behind Artist and Plague, making him the 6th best killer in the game. He has a lot going for him but he ultimately lacks these situations in which you simply go down no matter how good you play compared to those above him (unless of course you do what the survivors in that video did and give him absolutely free hits).
The charge speed is reduced because in order to have the current speed billy has now, he used to have to run engravings addons which would significantly increase the charge speed and was a huge detriment. Now he gets base charge speed with engraving like effects in his base kit, excluding all the overdrive buffs which exist. 0.125s matters alot when your moving at 13 metres per second during overdrive and when your playing against a killer who the counterplay is being able to make it to the next pallet or around a corner in time.
You're right the movement speed whilst charging is the same, that was meant to be the movemetn speed during the cooldown is now faster.
10% speed increase is incredibly useful basekit alone, excluding the crazy overdrive effects or anything the iri engraving does. There's a reason double speed blight was and still is incredibly powerful, speed matters alot.
An increase to the curving window once again even only 0.25 seconds is really really huge. There's a reason adren vile on blight went from being the worst addon to one of the best once the turning restriction was reduced slightly.
Curving is alot more powerful and easy now than it used to be because of all of the stat buffs i just mentioned. You move faster, charge faster, curve for longer, have much more generous collision and have a much smaller penalty for missing or bumping.
You can't say that his map mobility is the same it used to be. Its much better now. Moves faster, has overdrive, and even if as you say overheat didn't mean much most of the time, that was because people didn't rev as much as they used to. It still somewhat limited your ability to hold m2 like you can now.
Billy used to be C tier yes, but you ask any streamer or comp player what they think of billy and they'll tell you he's S tier. Infact alot of players think he's number 2 right now over spirit and blight.
The point is all these buffs which you've wiped away as "minor" or they don't matter that much matter so much more than you think. No one said that the hit speed recover buffs killers got a while back were "minor", they were huge. And billy got a huge number of those buffs which have compiled to make him incredibly strong.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738166#Comment_3738166
why do you think Demogorgon is on same level as Leatherface?
Mostly because of his chase potential. He can shred pallets akin to a bubba but having a ranged like dash attack is really good in alot of situations at getting hits other killers could only dream of, and it has a really big hitbox so its difficult to dodge or react to. However i'm not totally familliar with buffed bubba just assumed he'd be around here.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738165#Comment_3738165
Walks faster when he is charging? Do you mean his movements peed while revving his saw? Because as far as I know that did not get touched at all, if it did I'd be glad to see the source.
You're right it's not faster whilst he's revving, it should say faster whilst he's in cooldown because he moves faster after letting go of the chainsaw.
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@Yippiekiyah said:
Is slinger really that good?
He got buffed, but more importantly he's basically a pyramid head without the tunneling ability but with a greater threat range and better choke and 3gen controlling imo.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738151#Comment_3738151
Billy still has the same counterplay he always had. You win the mind game, you're safe. You know which loops he can curve and play around that and suddenly his strength is not all that great anymore. I main this killer and I have done that for 2 1/2 years. Believe me, I know a thing or two about his abilities and his limitations. Hillbilly cannot readjust. If he misses, then he misses. Blight on the other hand can readjust. That's what puts them apart. The only thing that migth push Billy up close to Blight are the LoPro Chains. They were fine when he was weak but with all his other strengths they just aren't fair anymore. At least not in that form. Maybe if they had a big downside.
Artist doesn't need map mobility because she has map pressure. As long as you're not profitting from elavation, you are never safe against her. She can down you from across the map through objects. That's way more powerul than Chucky trying to use Slice & Dice for mobility. When it comes to loops, there is also no doubt that Artist is a lot stronger. Against her, you cannot loop anything. You need to chain. Against Chucky you can do both and even then Artist can play around you chaining loops better than Chucky.
I think your assuming that old billy is the same as new billy, they aren't remotely close. What your describing is old billy who if you knew what he could flick he was not strong in chase, he was way slower, way longer charging time, easier to read and had a massive limitation on his power usage.
New billy has:
-A shorter charging speed
-Walks way faster when in cooldown
-Moves way quicker
-Can curve corners at over 180 degrees now
-Can go straight for half a second and then curve 90 degrees
-Can curve 90 degrees one way and then 90 back the other way to go around tight bends and obstacles
-Way more generous curving and easier to use curving, flicking as billly used to be really hard, now its really easy
-Has overdrive which is up about half of the time and moves faster than a nurse blink and has an even faster charge time
-Has a wayyyy shorter cooldown after ending a chainsaw sprint
-Has a minimal penalty for bumping now and can move whilst bumped
-Also has no limitation on his map mobiliy or his power usageThese things add up because it means its extremely difficult to survive in a chase. You can't play any loops because he can hit you around anything. Predropping is inneffective because of his break speed. He can also hit you around dropped pallets similar to a blight. Hiding behind walls or obstacles is much less effective because its infinitely easier for him to simply curve around them now or hold his rev until he gets overcharge. In overcharge as well you have to instantl drop every pallet and hope he doesn't hit you around it or on the way to the next one or you're dead.
So what's billys actual weakness now? He takes slightly longer than the other S tiers hit you. BUT when he does hit you its an instadown so.
You can't chain loops or simply loop a chucky he'll hit you anywhere unless you have an insane god pallet infront of you or something, its like trying to loop a blight you'll just get hit around everything. Except that its way harder for chucky to miss. Artist does have to take a bit of time to zone you and catchup again to kill you which means on average you'll probably have quicker chases as chucky than artist against good survivors.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738101#Comment_3738101
Yeah and that video is hilarious. I mean, he couldn't have shown something more biased and false if he tried. First, compare the builds. Then look at how these supposed comp survivors actually played. A comp player that doesn't know how deadly a Hillbilly is around the syn cars? Another comp player, that is in a dead zone with SB and instead of running, he walks so that the killer has an easier time back revving? Hilarious. Seriously, they looked like they weren't even paying attention half the time.
Public survivors play better than that. At least they wouldn't make these kinds of blatant mistakes. This looked like they didn't even try.
Also, the Chucky changes were some heavy nerfs. He can no longer scamper windows or pallets without using Slice & Dice. That's huge. Artist isn't broken either. Just way better than Chucky. Chucky has no map pressure, no mobility, a chase power that is weaker than Artist's and when it comes addons he is also weaker.
I don't see how Chucky would be comparable to Spirit. Both are 4.4 m/s killers but that's where their similarities end.
The hens video wasn't the best quality but theres plenty of others as well showcasing just how strong new billy is, he's very akin to blight powerwise except he can instadown which is insane for a killer of that tier. If a billy player is good it's extremely difficult to last that long in chase because not only do you not get a second chance because he can instadown, but predropping isn't even effective against the killer. He also has the best mobiliyt in the game, has no cooldown on his power unlike any other S tier character and has instadowns.
As for Artist and chucky, artist also has no map mobility either, infact i'd argue it's worse than chuckys because chucky can use his really short cooldown now to dash across the map akin to a wesker. Chucky also i'd argue has an equal or in some cases better chase power. The reason chucky and spirit are comparable is because they do the same thing. They are 110 killers who rely on their extremely strong chase power to down people really quickly and win through fast downs. Chucky and spirit can both hit you nearly anywhere except around a few dropped gods, which in both cases they'll simply break and hit you after like any killer would. Also chucky gets a good stealth ability as well for some strange reason.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
I dont think Chucky Is as good anymore.
I'd argue the chucky changes were net buffs. His cooldown was nearly halved which is absolutely ridiculous, his cooldown is now quicker than spirits for an ability nearly as strong if not stronger in some situations. Not being able to vault over pallets doesn't matter too much because most pallets you can hit around as chucky similar to spirit, and shack and stuff you can just break and then get a hit straight after.
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@Jaredleto1234 said:
It's crazy people still think trapper is bad. Anytime I need to do a 4k challenge I immediately pick trapper. Using the addon for carrying all traps at the start and the free reset every 30 seconds is a nearly unwinnable situation for survivors. You can make a web around 3-4 gens and never leave your web from the start of the game. Even with the nerfs to how much you can regress a gen, it is still plenty.
It has been very funny to see killer mains try and gaslight people into thinking Vecna isn't at the very least very high A+ tier. I would rather play a Spirit or billy before I played against a Vecna.
Trapper has good addons don't get me wrong, but without addons he's completely terrible, which is why both him and myers r in C tier. Other low tier killers also have insanely good addons like trapper as well so its not a trapper excusive thing.
Vecna is very strong yes, but there's so many strong killers in the game these days its tough competiton. I'd argue half the killer roster these days are strong or very strong killers.
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@Xernoton said:
Seeing Billy in S-tier is kind of wild to me. Yes, he is extremely good. Just not that good. I'd rank him right after Plague (who would be number 5 thanks to her addons right after Artist). Chucky is also way weaker than Artist. She can force hits in every loop and also has huge map pressure. Plague simply has the pressure and addon advantage as well as one of the most powerful chasing tools DBD has ever known.
Other than that, I'd put Dredge above Nemesis and Freddy right at the bottom. He is the only killer that absolutely cannot snowball, he has about 4 good addons (2 of which are killer instinct after teleporting), a base power that is so lackluster, downsides upon downsides and self-inflicted restrictions. No way he is better than any other killer in the game. Myers has Tomb Stone Piece and Tuft of Hair, can snowball and is also a bit stealthy, Trapper has some very mean addons and has huge snowball potential and Legion has better addons, a way better chase, built-slowdown thanks to constant mending and the ability to traverse maps quickly.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737743#Comment_3737743
Wouldn't that put Artist at number 2 and Huntress at 3 though? They can hit you from almost anywhere on the map, if they're good enough and their skill ceilings are close to infinite.
There's a video by Hen's I believe showcasing Billy vs Blight where they conclude that Billy is even stronger than blight (which i don't nescaserily agree with), but the point is new billy is incredibly incredibly stupidly strong. I'd suggest you watch it and see what you think.
As for chucky vs artist don't get me wrong artist is completely broken, but the chucky changes were pretty much just buffs and i think he's basically an easier to play spirit now.
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@NODD3RS said:
i dont reallt think spirit is that good anymore, I think she’s middle A tier. I would move slinger to low b. Oni and chucky should swap places. Xeno is B. Just my opinion
Just curious why do you think spirit isn't as good anymore? What's your thoughts behind that?
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@VantablackPharaoh91 said:
Map is really busted.
Bad infinite possible against M1s in the Dungeon. Two strong pallets in that strong area of the Dungeon. Loss of Bloodlust through portals, can't send Killer powers through portals, can't hook in the Dungeon more than six times because only two hooks. The Cage Room could be used by players both sides to block people in that room and hold them hostage. Bad design overall.
Topside there are weak loops everywhere, every portal has a gen nearby. No reason to ever defend Shack gen because it's strengthened by two slightly weaker pallets. There's a pallet with a gap that is useless to use as defense, period. There's a spot where two pallets spawn one on top of the other. Not a single safe gen on the map. Map itself is too big for M1s to do much with and the indoors is hard for any ranged or speed Killer to deal with due to so many collision spots. Spawn logic for Players, Killer items, Hatch, and other crucial things is broken.
Oh, and there's a broken spot with the pillars leading into Vecna's lab that Ghostface and Myers can clip into and stalk through without being seen, to the point they will never be noticed and Ghostface never revealed there.
Killswitch this map, fix the glitches, tweak it to be smaller, rework the portals and the hook and Killer Interactables spawns, then put it back in rotation. Ideally BEFORE Masquerade.
Smaller? You want the smallest map in the game to be even smaller?
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
Nurse is one of the most unique Killers in the game, like it or not.
She is the ONLY killer from ALL 35+ killers that you have to play differently againts and as her. You have to change your playstyle.
She was nerfed like X times in row, like almost every year she gets nerfed. How much you people want? Do you want to make her just bad killer to play? She is one of the few killers if not the only one who even the most skilled Survivors have to respect (her power).
Yeah so those killers like spirit, blight, billy, singularity, unkown, plague, hag, twins you just have to play exactly the same against as eachother definitely…
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@DBD78 said:
Clown is a lot better now no question but B-tier rather than A-tier. And yes Dredge is dredgeful so he should be this low.
Yea clown could maybe go down hard to say atm i just think his chase is ridiculously better than any b tier killer.
Dredge wouldn't be so bad if locker spawns were fixed. Simply add a maximum locker spawn distance when playing dredge like 16m or something.
Dredge on midwhich for example is B - A tier forsure.
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@Unusedkillername said:
I agree with almost everything but chucky, demo, clown and singularity.
I think singularity is kinda weak compared to where the community thinks he is, I think clown is just mid tier he seems more at home with the B tier bunch than As tbh, I think chucky is a little overrated because his anti loop but i think getting some pressure going against good surivers can be rough, and i think demo is just a bad killer imo better than the worst but he is where you put wraith for me.
On a side note I like to see slinger getting the credit I think he deserves. I kinda think he's a little underrated by the community i remember seeing a thread where people seemed to be in agreement he was the worst ranged killer but i think hes way better than trickster.
I would've placed slinger above huntress before the huntress buffs honestly, his value comes from being really good at the killer and being very consistent. It's alot easier to get better results on other ranged killers.
What makes you think singularity is worse?
Yea honestly clown could go to top of B+ which might be more suiting, I'm not entirely sure but i just think the clown buffs really pushed him over the edge in terms of being ridiculously stupid in chase especially with the right set up (like playing brutal rapid clown)
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@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703744#Comment_3703744
billy is very oppressive even without his best addons. He can be anywhere on the map in seconds and his cooldown doesn’t really exist with an instadown threat. You are not safe at really any loop against him you just let him eat your pallets so the game doesn’t instantly end.
Oh yea dont get me wrong i think the killer is super op and you definitely aren't safe at any loop if hes got iri graving in particular. The zoning capabilities are just ridiculous. I just think at the very highest level like against comp teams and stuff spirit has a very slight edge because the killer is more reliable, you can have more rough games on billy than spirit and the best teams once they get better at playing against new billy will have slightly more options against him than spirit,
Very subject to change though like i think the killers are very close and there's a good chance i'd move him above spirit in the near future.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703745#Comment_3703745
How is Legion better at what Myers does? imo they're nothing alike
Myers has to spend and waste alot of time just to become a killer let alone be able to insta down for a little bit. Legion gets to injure people for free which is making them 1 shot anyway.
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@ratcoffee said:
Myers is not that bad. He's not good, but outside of organized comp matches he's decidedly not bottom 2, he's just out of bottom 5 at worst
He's not that bad but I think every other killer is just better, back in the day actually he used to be considered an A tier killer, i think this showcases the power creep in the game tbh because yea he's not unplayable but every other killer is just better, like legion and ghostface are better at what myers does and freddy has more map pressure and a slightly better chase power available.
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Yea blight definitely either bottom of S or top of A+ afer the changes, we will see how much it impacts playing loops as to whether it makes him closer to artist or closer to billy/spirit.
I would put billy above spirit however I think that at the very very top level against surviors who know how to play against both killers i think spirit gets a slight edge, just because spirit is always goign to have more reliable chases and also is a killer who doesn't really care how good you are at survivor that much.
This is excluding lopros however, lopros billy is completely broken, maybe better than daughter ring spirit, but otherwise billy is more addon reliant than spirti is, particuarly on engraving.
Average games though billy is better i'd agree.
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True
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@Xernoton said:
I'd put Billy as one of the top A-tier killers but not S-tier. I think Plague is better than Chucky too because she has the addon power on her side with a base kit that is already very strong. In order for the top A-tier killers I'd probably go: Artist, Plague, Billy (he is very strong but he has no combination of addons that reaches Plague's level), Chucky.
Deathslinger is in no way better than Oni though, is he? His time management (shooting, hitting, reloading, catching up, shooting, hitting reloading) is just horrible. On top of that there are so many loops where you can get a hit but you'll never get the down with Slinger's power as long as the pallet is still up. I'd say he is a solid B-tier killer.
Seeing Clown in A-tier just looks wrong to me. He is still fundamentally the same killer with pretty much the same weaknesses. His time efficiency became a lot better because he doesn't need to reload as often but other than that, he isn't that much stronger. I'd put him in B-tier between Bubba and Nemesis.
Lastly, I'd put Sharp Hand Joe in the lowest tier. He is a sad mess. Addon dependent, undertuned, predictable, overcompensated regarding counters and overall just not very good. Myers and Trapper both have the ability to play nasty and get better results that way but Freddy? He has nothing. For the most part he is a pure M1 killer with no power. You hook someone, they wake up. You interrupt them on a gen, they wake up, if they miss a skill check, you hit them and they're still awake thanks to the micro sleep immunity from the alarm clocks. On top of that, he has only 2 really good addons (Paintbrush should not even exist as an addon but be base kit anyway).
I think people are still figuring out billy but hes got everything the other S tier killers have.
The main thing that used to hold billy back was his chase wasn't very good and he was very difficult, both of these things now are basically not true anymore.
His chase is now insanely strong because he can basicalyl hit you at most loops, zone you incredibly easy with his really short cooldown and he also has an insta down so he can cut chase lengths in half. He's also alot more forgiving now and it's easier to redirect his chainsaw whilst flicking or charging, the fact he can 180 now or flick 90 one way 90 back is absolutely bonkers.
Like other S tier killers, he basically has minimal weakness compared to A tier killers who usually have more noticable weaknesses. Also i think him with the lopro chains is akin to old mother daughter ring spirit, it puts him blight levels of powerful if not stronger.
Chucky im not too sure about havn't seen him a whole lot or played him alot against the best players so maybe.
I might be a little biased like from a comp perspective but the reason i have slinger and clown so high and oni lower is because slinger and clown are killers who basically get better the better the surviors they play against. You have to play these killers very well and mistakes can be very punishing but when they are played well they basically down people so fast they put surviors on a ticking time bomb, and slinger gets alot of zone, 3gen control as well as he's good at playing around unhooks.
Oni is really strong don't get me wrong but you can be significantly disadvantagd if you can't get an m1 fast, and the best surviors will basicalyl abuse bloodlust breaker pallets like shack to make it take quite a while to get an m1 unless they make a mistake or you make an outplay. In an average game he's def better but against the best survivors i think slinger and clown are more reliable.
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They can theortically down faster than nurse because victor moves at such a fast speed.
At the start of the match you can find survviors incredibly quickly and injure everyone like instantly.
Twins also doesnt care about exhasutions or you using distance to waste a bit of time because victor is just so fast.
Only a few specific pallets like shack can maybe waste a little bit of time but usually not, otherwise loops and pallets are completely useless but unlike nurse, walls and distance is also useless.
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I can see that argument,
Ultimately what makes artist and chucky better imo is they are more consistent and less map reliant, they will always have fast chases and always have alot of pressure. Plague can be a little less consistent and is slightly more counterable but still really really strong.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703029#Comment_3703029
He is kinda weak. Not horrible, not the worst killer mind you, but weak againts any decent Survivor team and you rely on locker spawn and good addons.
For me he is High C tier (I have S,A,B,C,D).
Yea the biggest problem is locker spawns being really bad, fix locker spawns and he'd go up a tier or so. He's really strong on maps like midwhich and probably like B to A tier on midwhich alone but other than that not great.
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Hahahah don't you dare hold that remnant at my hook.
On a serious note though, where would you place dredge?
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
if this was ptb right now. Twins would be number 2 in S tier
If this was ptb right now i'd have twins above nurse tbh, and blight would b at the bottom of s tier below billy.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
No, it has never worked in the past, and it never will
DBD is not designed to be a competitive game, it is a mess of RNG and unbalanced mechanics, and every single time Competitive has been attempted it has just devolved into "Tunnel one guy, pre-drop every pallet, camp in end-game" rinse and repeat, and the massive amount of restrictions just completely neuter any and all soul this game has, this game is designed to be unbalanced on purpose and attempting to make it "competitive" just kills the reason why people play this game, to have fun
Comp DBD is not only a stupid idea in theory, it's a stupid idea in practice, it has never been fun to watch and trying to turn a party game into a competitive sweatfest makes everyone involved look like fools, why people are so obsessed with trying to make it a competitive game when it is the anthesis of competitive AND despite how often the attempts have gone up in flames boggles the mind
Because some people enjoy the competitive aspect of games? Comp dbd isn't hurting anyone i don't see why you can't just let people play it.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692446#Comment_3692446
Aa the whole games base balance being predicated on killers being slightly faster; there should be no perks that make survivors faster without some existing on killer side. There is a reason why MFT was so problematic, and why Yew Seed Brew got removed from Huntress. Only haste survivors should have are exhaustion perks and on hit boosts
Yes thats true exhaustions should be the only speed boost perks. But killers are getting alot of speed boost perks and addons which you basically can't tell when they have and they arent healthy at all. It's going to be a much bigger problem on killer side for now. Because they havn't added any new speed boost perks to surviovrs since mft.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691772#Comment_3691772
As long as they are removed from both sides im fine with that.
Other than background player which is an outlyer and op atm, theres no new speed boost perks for survivors and theres not many in general compared to the amount of speedboost options which killers get. It's definitely more problematic on the killer side atm since mft nerfs.
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@solarjin1 said:
if nurse have to float around the map for 40 seconds without blinking she gonna lose. I like his idea of it being a universal perk but that about it
@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/409916/why-otz-says-buffing-ds-is-bad
Disabling a killer's power for 30-40 seconds? I am sorry, but what? I don't always agree with Otz, but never have I heard him say something that makes me say what the heck is he thinking?
He said resets the power if you watched the video which is 6-10 seconds at most.
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Why are the devs OBSESSED with speed boost perks and addons now.
Devs please STOP they aren't healthy for the game at all and comes across as if it's lazy design.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3688977#Comment_3688977
I mean that's just kinda how Live Service games are. Things will become too strong relative to everything else, get nerfed, a new meta emerges, that gets nerfed. It's an ongoing cycle.
Fair point that's true.
Just think background player was currently a more problematic perk but oh well. I have a problem with them not touching new broken perks for a set period even when they are blatantly op, like considering how long its taken then to change ultimate weapon. If they can change adren why not change all these other perks which are probably far worse.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683522#Comment_3683522
People have kinda complained about Adrenaline somewhat consistently over the years, and the nerfs to other meta perks has caused the use rate to climb significantly. There were just bigger priorities back then.
Adrenaline allows you to slam generators with little risk of an endgame snowball. It nullifies the need for resets in the lategame, which is too strong imo. Like a lot of other people have said in the past, it would not be released as it is if it was made today.
Ok so when adrenaline's nerfed however what's next on the chopping block, are they more perks you think are too OP? Are people still gonna complain about it after the upcoming nerfs? I think the upcoming nerfs are rather fair.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683522#Comment_3683522
There are not many Perks left which make Killers lose the game. Before now it was Made for This, but Killers who were losing games while Made for This was Meta (and before...) are now still losing games. There HAS to be another Perk which causes it.
And this time it is Adrenaline. (And I am pretty sure Threads like this are opened if it happens that a Survivor heals during Chase with the Killer... Which does not happen THAT often to be honest. Most of my Adrenalines are used up while I am healthy and not in a Chase, just giving the the Speedboost)
Exactly, no one's denying it strong but if people want it nerfed i would like to know why they suddenly think its such an issue now and to explain their reasoning.
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Ok but why Is it only problematic now? Adrenaline has literally been in the game since release and no one's ever complained about it.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682291#Comment_3682291
Yeah but how much of that is attributable to Killers being overpowered vs. SoloQ survivors not playing well?
How many times have you seen a random player running around aimlessly for 45s to 90s trying to find a totem to break for Inner Strength or a chest to try to get a medkit, instead of doing gens? Some people are doing tome challenges. I see this kind stuff a lot, and it's only since I've been playing with some pretty high skill players that I've started to notice it.
If you wanna get an idea of how daft people can play in SoloQ, take Kindred and Empathy, and just watch what people do... it's quite eye opening.
Really think about it, if the Survivors are making these kinds of mistakes, and not playing efficiently... how weak do you want the killer to be to make it so the 1 or 2 survivors playing seriously can win, when their teammates are making these kinds of mistakes and/or being this inefficient?
I've faced SWF teams who try to goof off, hit me with sabos, flashlight saves, etc, etc, as a pre-buff Pig and I've absolutely smashed them. I've also played against soloQ teams who were all running perks like Distortion, Lithe, WoO, We'll Make It, Deja Vu, with decent medkits and toolboxes, and gotten absolutely rinsed even as a Spirit on Dead Dawg... and I didn't play noticably bad... I made no serious mistakes, I was pretty efficient with my chases, I held onto the core 4 generators well... I mean maybe I wasn't quite mean enough camping hooks and tunneling hard... but I wasn't a slouch... and I still got pretty comfortably whooped...
What the problem for SoloQ is you have casual players mixed in with serious players. If you get 4 serious players in soloQ, you can get pretty hard matches as killer... but you get 4 survivors not on the same page (and thats the usual case)... and you get some pretty big chinks to exploit in the survivor teams armour.
Yea it is true to a degree that solo q players and even a general pub swf are either imcompetent or just playing for fun. That's typically why people like myself played alot of comp.
I don't know how you fix this other than potentially improving matchmaking somehow, adding some sort of proper ranked mode or system would be really fun but unfortunatelly there isn't the playerbase for that, which is why you'll find actual good killer players dont really play that much pubs or well handicap themselves so hard just to make the experience interesting. I can't play any S tier killers with more than bbq or it just ruins all degree of enjoyment.
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@Nos37 said:
So the rest of the playerbase who cannot 4k every match have to struggle more because you're a god?
Have you tried making the game more challenging for yourself?
- Play without meta perks
- Play without any perks
- Go for 12 hooks without hooking the same survivor twice
- Only use your power
- Only use basic attacks
Go look at Otzdarva's channel to see the challenges he put himself through for more elaborate ideas. 🤷♂️
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I play killer using the same build every match and I'm trying to remove variables from my playstyle so that SBMM can put me against the correct players, but it doesn't happen. I'm lucky if I get 1 kill. This is fine, but this should ALSO mean that my rating drops because of the 3 survivors who escaped. That is not the case if I am repeatedly getting matches where I barely get 1 kill.
If players couldn't lobby shop, which makes the backfill mechanic throw me into a match where I can easily 4k, my rating wouldn't be spiking up and causing me to be mismatched in the future. (Even then, the devs have said that the game very often knows the outcomes of matches. If survivors of a lower rating are matched against a killer of a much higher rating, the game limits the damage to all the player's rating anyway. So my rating should be largely unaffected by backfill matches.)
Who knows
That's the problem you literally need to blindfold yourself to make killer challenging sometimes. Doesn't matter how good you are at survivor doing a 4man our streak or even a 3man out streak is nearly impossible these days.
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@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675325#Comment_3675325
Is it pig buffs now yes. is this major buffs? No its more just quality of life buffs pig feels better to play as but doesn't raise her a tier or anything major she's still just the same as she always is still gotta run straps and grease to make her ambush and crouch any good
ONLY quality of life changes?????
So when is pig actually better? When her ambush never ends how about that? Or how about head traps are guaranteed to kill survivors now that sounds pretty good.
When does your constant call for buffs end? When will you actually achknlowedge buffs when they happen.
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@Krazzik said:
Ultimate Weapon is a big problem because it completely counters ALL stealth play unless you're running Calm Spirit, that's the ONLY counterplay in the entire game. There's nothing you can do basekit to counter it.
Stealth also happens to be the only counter to some killers in the game like nurse as well.. put 2 and 2 together and yeah recipe for disaster (or success if ur a devout nurse player i spose)
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
The power you get for simply opening a locker makes this perk one of the most stuffed values in the game.
I had this discussion with my partner for about 30 mins last night. They were under the impression UW was a very balanced perk. After stating my issues with it (the amount of power you get from the minor activation cost) and I was hit back with "But opening that locker takes time. Time the killer doesn't have."
I was silent for a moment but really didn't know what to say. I respect that PoV, but... I do NOT agree at all.
2 seconds to open a locker (or 3? Cant remember)
30 seconds of blind and a scream notification once a survivor wanders into your TR in that 30 seconds.
Didn't get anyone after 30 seconds? Just open another locker buddy, easy. Ahh, there they are.
Now, I've heard people say 'Just remove the blind.' That does nothing for the power this perk can hoist.
'Put it on a 1 minute CD' Its still the top perk for power vs activation, and leagues away from anything else in the killer arsenal. 1 activation usually gets a chase started, sometimes two. Unless the CD was like 3 minutes, I doubt it would even be felt.
The activation is the issue. Opening a locker AFTER hooking a survivor... now that's a good balance.
Don't people realise this is half of doctor's power in ONE perk? How can that ever be balanced? Imagine a perk allowd you to use half of freddy's power and teleport to gens.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676579#Comment_3676579
To date this is my best response to Ultimate Weapon:
Used to be quite vocal on this perk, kinda chilled out about it now, but the primary issue I see with it is purely its availability:
It is a Swiss army knife that allows the killer to find a particular target when they need them... it's not so much that the perk itself is the problem, it's more the nasty play styles it helps support that I think is where it takes the flack, especially on the strongest killers.
- Tunneling is easy because you can always find your target you want to tunnel, and can combine UW with Sloppy Butcher to really make it hard for that person to hide from you and heal. It also bypasses OTR and other methods of blocking aura reading.
- Camping is easier because it reveals anyone coming in to save from afar to help you stall the stage, and blocks survivor aura reading near, so it makes it really hard to coordinate saves without voice comms.
- 3 genning (the normal kind of 3 genning) becomes really strong, because you patrol with significantly less effort, and can make it really rough with perks like Dead Man's Switch.
- Slugging for hatch is basically a guaranteed kill that the survivors cannot prevent in any reasonable fashion (and its already nearly impossible to escape if the killer slugs, UW makes it no point of even trying).
- Other nasty strategies like Head Pop Pig and Devour Hope Demogorgon.
I have over time come to think, the issue isn't so much UW is overpowered... It's more the fact it is especially irritating to play against, as a result of:
- It is more effective vs. Solo players compared to SWF.
- It helps facilitate some particularly nasty methods of play (see above)
- It's disproportionately strong on mobile chase killers compared to less mobile killers, which exacerbates all the above issues even further.
It being very unfun and annoying may not be enough to nerf it... but I don't think its unreasonable to rework it.
Ultimate weapon is more strong in the hands of better killers against better swfs than solo. Best teams utilise stealth at the start of game, to set up for plays and to set up for hook saves. Ultimate weapon completely destroys the main counterplay against good killers.
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He's alot easier and thus more boring to play than wesker. There's not really any intuitive gameplay involved.