Can a Developer justify or explain the design choices and balancing of the Judgement?
Not 1 person has been able to explain or justify the design and balancing choices in regards to judgements power. It would be great to hear the design perspective on this killer as many in the community are mind boggled at the insanity that's been created and desperately waiting answers. I'm curious as to if any devs are able to do so?
As anyone with a decent understanding of the game knows this killer is completely miserable and unfair to play against if the person in control is not brand new to the game. Skill is removed entirely from the survivors hands and placed into the killers as if it's a PvE experience. Many top players are in consensus that this killer is as unhealthy as skull-merchant yet as powerful as many S tier killers, a toxic and game destroying combination.
However, I'm more interesting in if anyone is able to provide some developer insights into the design philosophy/balancing technique of this new killer? Because it's as if no one who has more than 100 hours in this game was involved in play testing, and no one even thought about testing the survivor experience against this killer, the other 4/5ths of the players in a match's experience…
If there's no ability to justify or explain design choices behind this killers power level and power design, then there's simply no reason that they should not be instantly hot fixed disabled until they can be reworked entirely. I have a feeling the disconnect/giving up data against this killer is beginning to skyrocket as players move beyond the "first time bias" and someone is aware of this.
Comments
There is a Third Seal build going around now, prevents seeing Judgements statues, this killer even breaks the rule of blindness hiding killer items. So can easily cause teammates leaving you to die in exile. Again punishing SoloQ just for lolz
I mean I can justify their choices for the Judgement's design easily.
We voted for it after all.
I mean what you say here is just not true. No matter how good the Judgment, there is always a chance to dodge the beam at the moment. You just have to predict the aim trajectory of the beam properly and then you can dodge the beam. If however the Judgment aims well and predicts your movement properly, they will get a hit against you. That's how both sides have counterplay against each other.
But yes, the beam can always be dodged if you as the survivor make the right read.
Also, saying that the Judgment doesn't have any counterplay unless the player is completely new is also such an exaggeration on top of being false, since it undermines the skill that Judgment takes. Not saying Judgment is the hardest thing to ever grace a pvp game, certainly not, but playing Judgment is not easy either.
I can still see an argument for her being a tad op at the moment, due to her low power cooldown and/or aura reading potential. But to say she is completely unfair to go against because she has no counterplay is just not true. She still has to predict survivors movements in order to get a hit, which means survivors can also make the right predictions and dodge the beam.
Edit: I also haven't had many survivors give up in my matches yet at all. Most of them do realise there is counterplay I believe.
Would not call it counterplay. This is a guessing game, nothing more.
The skill Judgment takes is way lower than expected with Aura Reading. On the PTB I also thought that Judgment will be a very skill-demanding Killer, but her skill requirement is really low if you slap on Aura Read. (Which does not even come as such a high cost, considering that Hook-related Perks dont work on her, so it is not like you have to make that big of a choice)
Not saying that the skill is 0, but it is certainly not much.
@Topic:
The Devs wanted the "Community Chapter" to be a strong Killer. Obviously only for the Killer side, the Survivor is unpopular with bad Perks. But the Killer is very strong and not that hard to play.
IMO the Devs knew exactly what they were doing and it is 100% intentional. They also buffed A Nurses Calling to work on slugs again, and it works perfectly with Judgment.
The new survivor perks had 0 impact, didnt saw any of her perks since like 50 games.
This is straight up a bunch of lies.
Once she becomes zealous, her beam is UNDODGABLE. Unless your tragically bad at using the power or making really really stupid mistakes the 0.6 second window to change its direction means you simply let go of the attack a couple meteres before the survivor and change its direction if they dodge. It's literally a honing missile that you guide. Even before you get the zealous power, which is pretty much only for the first chase each game as you will have it permanently up for the rest of the game, its at minimum a 50/50 as to whether you get a hit. Combine the extremely low cool down and you will just down them eventually even if it takes 2 or 3 shots.
The judgement does not take much skill. You are confusing a killer with a weird/unusual power to use for difficulty. Weird and different is not the same as difficult. Her power is rather easy to use once you get used to the weird aspect, which took me about 5 games at most, and then you simply charge your power backwards, aim to the survivor and tap when its nearly on top of them. It's not that hard. The skill of the survivor is also irrelevant regarding how fast they go down because its on YOU to miss. It's far more difficult to play a killer who DOESN'T ignore half of survivors perks, has to understand how HOOKS work, has to understand how CHASES and TILES and LOOPS work and who doesn't ignore nearly every element of the game that other killers abide by. It's basically a separate game that anyone can learn, doesn't matter if you've never played killer or are an expert.
If you think it is at all reliably dodgable whilst zealous I have a bridge to sell you and a custom lobby waiting.
It is even a bit worse. Her best Perk (Salvations Cry) just hurts your team if you are against a Judgment with Deerstalker.
Yikes gotta look into that never even heard of that third seal build as well sounds disgusting.
Yeah if the devs are unable to answer for what they've blatantly done here then there is no other conclusion that can be drawn other than they've given up on good game design and balance and gone towards blatant killer cash grabs. Sadly it's a trend that's been going on for a while now. I would love for them to prove to me otherwise or tell me the good things about this killer but I'm waiting…
Last i remember people voted on the THEMES of the power and chapter not specifically a cross map wallbanging damaging beam and all the gameplay nightmares that come with it.
I obviously do not develop Dead by Daylight but I am a game developer and here is my take:
Judgments initial power was going to be a hitscan beam, which is obviously overpowered in a game like Dead by Daylight so they changed it to an orbital ray which would be perfect.. If the Zealous curve didn't exist. Currently I genuinely love Judgment but she becomes terrible to play against, and unbelievable easy to play as once she becomes Zealous as her power just becomes free hits.
Aside from the fact that the Curve Window exists Judgment as a whole has a pretty great and rewarding design, her power (w/o Zealous) is hard to hit and in exchange you get a very powerful hook state being Exile. (Exiled survivors shouldn't spawn right next to the killer imo) Outside of Zealous Judgment is genuinely a pretty balanced killer, the power is dodge able at long ranged and close ranges.
This killer as a whole has a pretty great design imo, its just that the curve window is genuinely overpowered.
This should be fixed next patch as for some reason the statues are not considered "killer items"
I'm glad someone on this cursed platform is finally acknowledging the disgusting curving you can do on that thing. It's incredibly concerning that the devs thought to BUFF the curve window since release, as if this killer wasn't already strong enough?
How would you define counterplay then? Of course that is counterplay, that is literally how both sides have counterplay.
You have to try and predict what the other side will do. If you could react to what the other side does, then the other side wouldn't have any counterplay against you because with good enough reaction you could always counterplay the opposing side.
This gameplay has to be prediction based or one side will end up with now counterplay against good players.
Also, I do get that aura reading makes this killer easier, but I wouldn't say she is easy to play even with aura reading. Not that hard, but still challenging enough.
Edit: Also by your logic everyone should be playing Judgment at the moment, but from what I have seen, many people have been actually claiming to see the new killer very rarely.
The 0.6 second curve window is a lie. It only applies when the delay is still at maximum, if you hold the power long enough for the delay to only be 0.3 seconds, the curve window is also 0.3 seconds, I tested it and am pretty sure this is how it works. Not sure if this is intended or a bug (I really hope it's intended, because the beam does NOT need a buff), but at the moment, the beam can always be dodged if you make the right read as survivor. Now if they ever make it so the beam can be curved for 0.6 seconds, even with a minimum damage delay after activation of 0.3 seconds, then you might be right that survivors have no counterplay.
But right now, if the survivor makes the right read at the right time, they can dodge the beam. And outside of zealous, it isn't always a 50/50. Especially when the survivor breaks line of sight, they have higher chances of dodging the beam than getting hit by it, at least in most cases.
And no, Judgment does take a lot of skill in general. Just because you didn't find her hard doesn't mean that applies to everyone. She is definitely one of the more skillfull killers in the game. With aura reading less so, but even with aura reading she isn't that easy to play. And as explained, the skill of the survivor at the moment is not irrelevant.
If you despise going against the Judgment that is totally fine. Everyone has killers they dislike going against. But that doesn't mean everyone feels that way, I for one love going against her.
BHVR forgot how to Limit a Killers power.
Let's look at Oni.
Oni has hyper mobility and an instant down… pretty powerful.
Does Oni start with this Power? No.
Oni must find a Survivor, engage in a traditional M1 Looping scenario and score a hit. He then needs to collect enough blood to activate His power.
Judgement.
Starts the match with their power on a 6 second CD… that's it. Gets more powerful after Exile.
Jason has a 12 second CD on OE… that's it. Can reload while chasing, (i'm not counting reload) even though it is a slight limitation, nothing compared to other reload characters.
Krasue at least had to infect Survivors first providing some limitation but she was so overtuned on release it didn't matter.
First of all they literally buffed it to 0.6 seconds a few days ago for some strange reason, are you saying the devs lied about this change or just ######### it up?
Even if what you are saying is true it doesn't change the fact that a redirect window is still insane. The speed that the beam travels at 0.3 seconds is MORE than enough time to redirect it to react to a dodge. You could even do the maths on this to demonstrate it.
Just because you can see the attack coming SOMETIMES doesn't translate into dodging or "counterplay". You need to account for the insane width and speed of the beam, as well as the terrible survivor movement acceleration values, huge hitboxes of survivors and literally any single obstacle on the map that decreases the ability to dodge.
Breaking line of sight is much harder against this killer than nurse for an infinite number of reasons. Nurse is SLOWER than survivors, this killer is 110. Nurse has HUGE fatigue windows where she can't see properly and can barely move. There are also a crazy amount of aura perks and addons available to this killer. ONTOP OF THIS, nurse has to predict survivors location in 2 axis. X and Y. Judgement only needs to predict survivors movement in ONE axis, something that is INFINITELY easier to do.You can't double back a judgement, only guess left or right ASSUMING that the killer doesn't even try to hit you in a creative way or is terrible at timing the power. Like how many more physical pieces of evidence do you need to see it.
Once again having a clunky or weird power to use or get used to IS NOT THE SAME AS DIFFICULT. Case and point the Krasue. Judgement also doesn't take alot of skill. She's been out for less than TWO WEEKS and people have already figured out the best way to play her and are STOMPING people. I dont remember blight stomping people in less than 2 weeks on release, people thought he was bad because he ACTUALLY had a high skill ceiling. Same with Wesker.
They buffed the curve window when you use the beam right away, so when the activation delay of the beam is still at it's highest.But when they delay is at it's lowest, the curve window is still 0.3 seconds. Not sure if this is intended and was just communicated poorly, or if this is a bug, but I sure do hope it's intended, and that the devs realise that a curve window of 0.6 seconds for a beam that starts damaging after 0.3 seconds would be too strong.
And no, if the survivor dodges at the right time, you won't be able to react to the survivors movement with the curve window of 0.3 seconds in order to always to get a hit. This is because on top of the reaction time of the killer player, there is a small delay between aiming the beam, and the beam actually following your aim. It's like you are pulling the beam with your aim, instead of the beam being exactly where you aim it at. If Henry had some kind of 0.3 second adjustment time on his vine attacks, then those would probably be undodgeable.
So if you time your dodge right, and make the right read, you can dodge the beam.
I would have also argued that breaking line of sight is more effective counterplay against Judgment than against Nurse, for multiple reasons. For one, Nurse is constantly repositioning herself during chase, meaning even if she misses, she most likely gets into a position where it's harder for the survivor to break line of sight. Judgment doesn't do that, as a survivor, you mostly keep the distance you have to her after she uses her beam.
And Nurse has 2 blinks, she can reposition herself with the first blink, so it's often times enough when she just gains line of sight on the survivor after her first blink. Not to mention she has to be less precise because she has 2 blinks and a lunge out of her blinks. Judgment on the other hand has to be more precise with her beam, as it only has a radius of 0.6 meters, or 0.66 meters while in zealous.
And survivors can dodge the beam by doubling back into the beam as well, if they time it right. That's because of the 0.3 second delay of the beam before it starts damaging. In fact, some survivors try to run towards the beam while the Judgment is redirecting the beam towards the survivor and doesn't have line of sight on the survivor during that time. Which also brings me to the last point. While Nurse has fatigue, the Judgment sometimes has to look away from the survivor in order to charge up the beam for long enough, to then hit survivors at closer range, which also opens up counterplay against the Judgment.
So as you can see, I am confident that Judgment has a good amount of counterplay for survivors. Now this doesn't fully answer the question whether she is op or not, because other factors, such as the cooldown of her power, also contribute to that question. But she certainly does have counterplay.
Gonna start of by saying if you think judgement has a fair amount of counter play for survivors can you demonstrate this please? Preferably in a custom lobby with be but even video demonstrations would be great. Because I have a feeling you haven't actually played much or any survivor against his killer.
What you've said about judgements aiming power and second delay etc is true but its hardly relevant/hardly a limiting factor for this killer. What you've not done in ur analysis is account for all the variables that make it CONSIDERABLY harder to dodge on the survivors end than aiming as killer. These include movement delays survivors have, the fact they can only dodge on one axis, limiting their ability to move in confusing or smart directions, the fact that the beam is rather HUGE and survivors hitboxes also extend the potential hitbox of the beam, the fact that survivors also play on PING and have no chance of reacting to the beam EVER unless the killer does a horrrific shot. 0.3 Seconds is NO time to completely change the direction of movement as a survivor not withstanding hitboxes, and OBSTACLES that survivors have to worry about that the killer literally doesn't.
What you've said about nurse getting 2 blinks and being able to reposition easier is true, she does get 2 changes to reposition, HOWEVER she can't just do that across the whole map, she needs to be very close to reliably do this, which cannot be said about judgement. None of that also negates or overpowers the facts I told you previously about nurse being 95% ms, having to predict survivors movement on 2 planes of relativity and having long visibility reducing fatigue's every time she uses her power, none of which judgement has to deal with. Much better trade for the judgement if you balance these factors accordingly.
This is not even going into all of the other toxic and unhealthy elements of this killer.
I have in fact gone against many Judgments already, luckily. And I have always had fun against them, no matter how good or bad they were. I definitely also had some close dodges that indicate to me that she does have some counterplay.
More importantly though, I am pretty sure from playing as her, as well as looking at her ability, that she does indeed have counterplay. Which I already explained. The delay of the beam is 0.3 seconds, in that time survivors cover a distance of 1.2 meters. Meanwhile the beam only has a radius of 0.6 meters, or 0.66 meters. I get that survivors have some momentum loss when changing directions, at least those that are more than 90 degrees, but I am pretty confident that there is still enough time for survivors to dodge the beam despite that.
In the end, as the Judgment, you have to predict the survivors movement. And that means survivors can also predict the killers aim, and dodge the beam.
Now if you argue that the beam doesn't have enough counterplay, i.e. the likeliness of dodging the beam in zealous form isn't high enough, that I can understand. I don't think I agree, at least not for now, but I can understand that. But the beam does have counterplay, especially outside of zealous.
Also, I have been clipped by beams and didn't take damage, so I am pretty sure the hitbox here is not a problem. Not against normal ping killers at least. And I am pretty positive the survivors can not only dodge on one axis.
And survivors shouldn't be able to react to the beam, they should have to predict it. Otherwise, good survivors could always react to the beam and always dodge it, rendering the killer useless against good survivors.
When it comes to the counterplay of breaking line of sight, I already explained why I think it's more effective against Judgment than Nurse. You are right that she doesn't have as much range as Judgment though, but that doesn't really affect the breaking line of sight counterplay much. And I do believe that survivors can dodge the beam on two axis, as survivors can try and run through the beam right before it starts doing damage. It's true that Nurse has to endure fatigue and move at 95%, but in my opinion that doesn't outweigh the downsides of Judgment when it comes to breaking line of sight.
Now I don't think I can demonstrate this on the forums though. For one, if I showed a video of me dodging beams against a Judgment, you would probably be of the opinion that the Juddment just missed and that's it. And I am also not the best survivor anyways.
Come show me in a custom game if you don't think the forums are a good means.
If you don't think you are the best survivor then even find a good survivor who can or someone who has demonstrated solid counterplay to a good judgement.
The problem is there are literally NO examples of gameplay that ANYONE can point to, and not one person has had the guts to try and counter my judgment first hand or anything. It's people talking out of their ass.
Also you admitted that this killer is complete guesswork when you said survivors should have to predict everytime they wan't to dodge. That is part of the list of problems with this killer, the RELIANCE on guesswork.
Can you point out any examples of matches where the survivors never had any chance to dodge the beam? Because I think you will not be able to do so either. I am sure if I'd watch some very good Judgment players that I would however see survivors dodge the beam multiple times as well, even in close calls. But then you would just say that it's the killer that missed, even if it wasn't the reason the survivor dodged.
So what we are left with is the analysation of the power itself. And when doing so, I come to the clear conclusion that the beam always has counterplay. Whether it's enough or not is of course subjective, as that is not measureable, but it certainly does have counterplay.
And yes, this killers counterplay is based on guesswork, or better said, prediction. Pretty much the entirety of DBD's counterplay is based on prediction. You always have to try and predict what the opposing side will do. Because if one side could just always react to what the opposing side does, then the opposing side would have no counterplay against the other side.
If survivors could just react to the beam and always dodge it that way, who the hell would still want to play Judgment? So that is certainly not part of the list of problems that Judgment has.
Honestly I don't know what to tell you any more. You don't like the design decisions of this killer, and that's fine. But there are enough people that do like the new killer, and if you are waiting for some apology or justification from BHVR, you're going to wait for a long time. Because objectively, there is nothing particularly wrong with the killer. Maybe they will get a small nerf or two in the future, but I wouldn't expect any big changes.
There are not enough people who like the design of the killer unless you live in the echo chamber that is the dbd forums full of 5 hour killer players.
Oh yeah I could literally record plenty of matches right now and demonstrate why the judgements power is incredibly unfair. Do you want to see some examples and demonstrations of what I'm talking about? Once again though you keep saying you've come to the conclusion it has fair counterplay based on literally NOTHING with NO proof, and I've offered for you to show me once in a custom, but like everyone who seems to argue judgement is fair, you don't actually have the balls to come to a custom match or show some videos demonstrating it or anything. It's all a bunch of big talk with nothing to back it up.
The problem with this killer is the SOLE reliance on an UNHEALTHY type of guesswork. This killer relies on pure 50/50s that completely ignore survivor skill, it doesn't matter whether you have 5 hours or 5000 hours it's all irrelevant against this killer, which is precisely the problem. It ignores all skill expression from the survivor side.
I know this is a very late reply, but I don't care.
And no, I doubt it's only killer mains within the dbd forums that enjoy going against this killer. I have seen many posts on reddit for example that have said they enjoy going against judgment.
I have come to the conclusion that Judgment is fair the same way you have come to the conclusion she isn't, through experience with the game and looking at the numbers of the power and everything surrounding the power. So I am still convinced that Judgment indeed has counterplay, even when she is in zealous.
But if you have demonstrations of what you are talking about, I'd gladly watch them.
One thing is for sure though, the reason people don't want to go in a custom match is because they don't want to put up with setting something like that up and waste their time. It has nothing to do with having the balls or not lmao. Not to mention you are coming off as a bit hostile towards people that don't agree with you, so who would really want to get in contact with you to set up custom matches?
And as I said, every time I would manage to dodge your beam, you would most likely just blame it on missing with the beam.
Your last paragraph holds some truth. Dodging the beam is also somewhat luck dependent, as it does often come down to 50/50s, at least when Judgment is in zealous. But there sure as hell still is a difference between a 5 hour survivor and a 5000 hour survivor going against the Judgment. Also, saying that the beam is a 50/50 contradicts the argument that Judgment has no counterplay, because 50/50s mean survivors have a 50% chance at counterplaying the beam. Whether it's luck based or not is irelevant to the question whether Judgment has counterplay or not.
Every single popular survivor main and even the sensible killer mains put this killer in the top 3, many as the top killer in dbd right now. These people also complain about the fact that this killer is incredibly unfun and removes so much skill from the game. Quite clearly there are some problems with this killer and how he's being perceived
I'm happy to show demonstrations as to why this is as soon as they fix the bug he's got rn.
I can tell you exactly why it's luck dependent but also has no counterplay. At the very BEST if the judgement is bad or taking bad and greedy shots, there's an element of 50/50s to it. Now this is extremely problematic in itself because 50/50s remove skill from the game, create rng fests and the fact that this killers cooldown is like 5 or 6 seconds with minimal penalty or slowdown means he can constantly spam it on you like vecna 2. So EVEN if it was only a 50/50 that's a 50/50 every 6 seconds, your odds of lasting any decent length in chase alone are fked, let alone trying to show skill expression in a chase. Whether it's luck based most certainly is relevant to whether judgement has counter play, old deathslinger and old spirit were changed for this very exact reason.
But if the judgement is good enough, they can aim and time the beam ontop of your head to make it practically undodgable 90% of the time, removing the luck element from the killer's side of the equation most of the time. At this point you pretty much just go down in 12 seconds every time except for when he whiff's the ability. You can say that it's a survivor "dodging it" but that’s just not true when this killers power is to literally draw lines anywhere on the map that damage survivors, go through walls and travel at bullet speed.
If that were true that people just don't wanna waste their time in a custom, how come everyone on these forums who think judgement is broken are willing to go custom, i've seen plenty of players advocating for his removal or massive nerfs offer to custom. Not ONE person who thinks hes balanced, or fun or fair in anyway.