Artimenius1307
Artimenius1307
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
For those of you who remember the Krasue anti-tunnel update, which went above and beyond, adding way too much and going way too far in trying to prevent tunnelling, slugging and other issues. From hiding when survivors get unhooked, built in 90 seconds unbreakable, etc.
This post is to suggest a new anti-tunnelling update that is aimed to make tunnelling way less appealing
BEFORE NOTE:
Before we get into that, I acknowledge that currently, tunnelling is in fact the de-facto balance for competitive play, and a proper removal of tunnelling would have to come with compensations for the killer and high level play to compensate. However, for the purpose of this post, we will not go into details about that compensation, but keep it in the back of your mind.
HISTORY:
Historically, to prevent tunnelling, many things have been suggested. 1 is giving survivors more gen speed when there are only 3 people alive, which would help, but it would also help survivors when the killer doesn't tunnel. More possible solutions have been introduced in the Krasue anti-tunnel update, which have been overbearing and awful.
So could it be that we have a perfect solution laying around somewhere that is already integrated with how the game works? The answer is yes!
THE ELEGANT SOLUTION TO TUNNELLING:
One of the problems with tunnelling is the "Death-Efficiency issue", which is the phenomenon where total team gen progress dramatically plummets per death of a survivor. Even at already 3 survivors alive, that team's efficiency can often drop to a total of 0% gen progress. The reason is because you will often be in the scenario where 1 survivor is hooked, 1 survivor is being chased, and the last other survivor alive has to spend their time unhooking (and potentially healing), ending up in a cycle of 0 gen progress.
So what is the solution? It is in fact a game mechanic that has always awkwardly existed within dead by daylight;
Self Unhooking!
- After 1 survivor dies, every survivor unlocks the ability to unhook themselves during the 1st hook stage.
So why is this genius? Because not only does it make tunnelling less effective as a strategy and allowing survivors still a functional game even after 1 survivor dies; it even addresses the degree of tunnelling.
If a killer has hooked all survivors before they take the first survivor out of the game, they aren't affected by this update. But for every degree that they resorted to tunnelling a survivor out of the match, the other team has extra tempo in which they can still progress the main objective at a somewhat similar rate to a 4 man team.
Remember the problem with a 3 surv team? It's that all the survs are occupied with something; being chases, being hooked and unhooking. This change makes it so that the 3rd survivor no longer has to occupy themselves with unhooking to the degree that tunnelling happened. Where if 1 survivor was fully tunnelled out of the hook, the survivor team will have 3 self unhooks available, giving them the tempo to reasonably put up a fight, even after the first survivor has died.
This simply change dynamically solves so many of the tunnelling problems, yet doesn't create much unnecessary and unintuitive complexity that doesn't make sense, like randomly increased gen speeds and other things.
The real solution to tunnelling has always stared is in the face, and we already had the game mechanics to fix them!
END NOTE:
This anti-tunnel update removes tunnelling as an equally effective strategy, but of course still allows a killer to physically tunnel out a survivor from the match from a fun perspective. To counteract such a thing, of course the only true way to solve that would be to allow survivors who are unhooking to choose whether they want to unhook the survivor at the current location or send them somewhere else where they then fall off the hook at an unknown location to the killer. If you are interested in this line of solving tunnelling, you can read more about it here: New DBD event (THE TRUE BALANCE EXPERIMENT) — BHVRI hope you all enjoyed this post and I hope it helped inspire you with ideas of how elegantly we can solve tunnelling ❤️
You are correct in why tunneling is so effective, when it's 4 survivors, 1 is always free to do gens, when it's 3, 0 are always free to do gens, on paper.
But your solution has a clear flaw. I mean, just imagining if it was implemented, it's obviously predictable what's gonna happen. 1 guy gets tunneled out, boom, other 3 are now getting slugged to death, because hooking isn't a good idea due to passive deliverance.
There are no easy ways out of tunneling, all of them will have flaws of their own. If a system is created which would make playing 1v4 for killers more tempting than 1v3, it's gonna be a complex one
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@Alen_Starkly said:
Over the years, a lot of killers and perks were made as a band-aid fix for a core problem in the game. There is a reason why perks like Shoulder The Burden are problematic. STB was made to help solo Q struggling with oppressive killers, but this perk hurts other killers, especially when facing a well-coordinated SWF. Band-aid fixes should be getting replaces by proper fixes.
List of things I feel like the game needs to fix some underlying core issues:
- Corrupt Intervention basekit. A simple solution to fix the killer losing gens too fast at the start. You could also make it so that the gens are unblocked only if X amount of gen progress is done on any other gen, to prevent the survivors from waiting/stealthing it out
- Spawns fixed: killer never spawns in the middle of the map anymore, letting the chance decide if they'll find the survivors right off the bat, or only when a gen is already done. Killer should always spawn somewhat close to the edge of the map, to always be able to have a general idea of where to find survivors
- Connecting to the previous suggestion, all offerings that alter survivor spawning place should be removed, retired or reworked. The purple shroud offering is most useful in coordinated SWFs, so it exponentially burdens the killer. Other survivor shroud offerings are kind of useless, and killer's offering is only useful if the killer correctly guesses that they're facing a coordinated SWF that brought the purple shroud.
- Thankfully you're reverting the off-hook endurance to 10 seconds. I would also like it if every hook stage went back from 70 to 60 seconds. From experience, 70 is too long, and means nothing, if the survivors aren't attentive.
- What would really help would be if we would be able to see our teammates' perks in a non-disruptive way. Currently, we have to press TAB, which obscurs the screen, and stops whatever action is taking place (e.g. gen repair). Letting us press a key, and then the perks etc. just pop up on the regular game screen, next to our teammates, would be much better. We could check perks mid-chase, too.
- Connecting to the previous point, it would also be nice if we could see the perk current state for our teammates too. Status ailments too. Like, how much longer until the broken effect is gone, how much longer until a teammate's blast mine is charged, how much of the medkit/flashlight on the teammate is still remaining. Sometimes we position ourselves to be flashlight saved, not knowing that our teammate's flashlight is empty. Or we unhook someone with a medkit, and let them heal themself, not knowing that their medkit is spent already. Seeing whether Deliverance or Clean Break is charged would help a lot too. ALL of these things are things that coordinated SWFs know and can easily communicate. Bridging the gap between SWFs and solo Q is a must. Otherwise the game is too hard to balance.
Of course, there are more things that would fix some core issues, but these are a good place to start. Thank you for reading!
I'd agree with everything except for corrupt intervention basekit, but purely because I just don't like the idea of basekit corrupt, it feels too much like a bandaid fix imo, though I can't suggest any alternative.
Imho last point would be hard to implement properly, most likely icons of perks will be smaller for teammates, so any showcase of their current state, as progress or tokens, will be even harder to see. Though if it's possible to do, that would be ideal
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@BYxSAMASTI said:
Hook distances are currently too short, especially in certain areas of the map. Killers can often hook survivors in very close proximity to each other, making it extremely difficult for survivors to safely rescue and reset. This can create very oppressive situations with little counterplay. I believe hook spawn distances should be increased slightly to create a healthier balance and give survivors more opportunities to make rescues.
Uh, survivors can very much still unhook 1 of them, no killer can be present to prevent unhooks in different places at the same time.
There are indeed some maps with hooks being weirdly very close to each other, but then again, if you somehow got 2 survivors downed in same area, I have a feeling that it is entirely on survivors, in which case killer gets to snowball off of it
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@QuantumEcho said:
I honestly do think that the people at BHVR really needs to fix the pallet density as there is just so many pallets everywhere to the point where it makes it really rough to play the weaker killers that are in the game who cannot keep up with how fast paced this game has become, i think either BHVR needs to bring back dead zones or just get rid of the pallet density update because a lot of killer players really hate how many pallets there are now to the point where they just stop playing the weaker killers and just play the strongest ones in the game like Blight, Ghoul or Nurse.
I do not know why normal 1V4 has 2V8 pallet balance and it honestly needs to be fixed ASAP.
Something tells me that it will not be reverted ever, and this is the end point. It's bad for sure. I still don't understand who tf thought it was needed for almost all maps, sure, if you say it was needed for something like Haddonfield or Borgo, I would 100% agree with you. However, this was slammed on majority of maps, even those that were viewed as "Pretty balanced".
It's a big critique I have of bhvr, they are choosing lazy ways of doing pretty dn important things. A pallet density update requires careful analysis of whichever maps could have spawns with basically nothing to use, to filter out maps which had plenty of resources as is. I can name countless swamps with empty middle, a 6 pallet on top Borgo portal map, or dead zone fiesta haddonfields, which was the case before pallet density. Now though? Holy, it's pallet in-between 5 others, I guess weaker and casual killers can go away do some other activities.
I would say it certainly requires a revision, I would prefer maps power lower over omega boring reworks to make killers twice as strong to compensate. Though that would require to reduce the power of top tier killers too
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@Ohyakno said:
Unhook protections should scale with the number of generators completed. At 5 gens unhooked survivors could have 15s by and elusive, for example. Then it scales down to the normal 10s bt by the end of the game
Proposing to go back to more balanced 10 seconds of protection at the end of the game? How vile of you.
Seriously though, they should've reduced it to 10s at the end of the game like ages ago, the fact you can bolt to gates and most likely make it is hilariously absurd
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101497#Comment_4101497
It's over and over again. OG killers are significantly weaker then new killers and they need tweaks. The current game is more balanced around more popular stuffs. Most of my surv games are Jason, Wesker or Ghoul… like 80 % of them, so it makes sense. Older killers will always suffer not having everything in their kit.
Eh, more like game's balanced around brain damage stuff, where survivors lost the need to manage resources carefully, and killers in exchange get reworks like current Clown or Myers, which made them strong but so straightforward. I completely dislike balancing direction they are going at the moment, it's a "If everything is straight dumb op, then nothing is" one
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101472#Comment_4101472
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7HY9YBEAUO63/jungle.jpg
Im not going to look for one in game sense it would take forever but when these 2 combine into a mega jungle with pallets around it its basicly infinit if the killer doesnt wave mobility or a way to stop one of the windows. so like on ghost face or trapper it can basicly be impossible to character good survivors here. and pallet dencity made the stronger spawning pallets around these mega loops
Hm, yes, I see what you mean. Basically a connected set of very strong loops like long window jungle gym/LT wall/Shack/Main etc etc.
Yea, it's undeniably an issue now too, one which I can't thank bhvr enough for introducing with pallet density. It's lumberjack simulator for weaker killers, I personally witnessed some of the spawns and they bring back memories of 2018-2020 spawns, which aren't pleasant. Well, they were pleasant when I was playing survivor myself.
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@Domicci said:
what about infinite loops where the survivors can loop the windows infinitely if they killer doesnt get to bl3
also with pallet decity m1 killers rely on blood lust more then ever sense survivors can just go from loop to loop making it hard more m1 killers to catch up
Name them, or show pictures of which loops you mean
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Well ye bloodlust 3 is outdated as heck, should be removed
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@SkeletalElite said:
The second oak has barely any effect and the third and fourth do practically nothing because of diminishing returns. The oak wasn't your problem
Game manual states absolutely nothing about hook distance being affected by diminishing returns, so unless it's not there for some god knows what reason, the effect of petrified oaks is not affected by diminishing returns and is therefore stackable to full
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@Elan said:
Hex: Huntress Lullaby needs complete rework, something like…
First time you hook survivor, hex totem ignites and your TR is transformed to it for 20s and you earn a token. Each next token grants extra 5s and is earnt for every ongoing hook.
Wouldn't the hex getting the terror radius be an incredible detriment? It's basically revealing it's location to everyone this way
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@PlottingClonettv said:
I've done a lot of thinking about this idea, any feedback in the comments is appreciated.
Huntress Lullaby keeps its previous effect, maybe lowering the 6% bonus regression.
But in addition: This perk hides all hex perks. Hidden hex perk effects are not shown to survivors, IE getting a skill check with lullaby equipped. Totems no longer make fire-like crackling noises. Hex totems appear as dull totems.
These additional effects last until:
A. This totem is cleansed
B. Hex:Huntress Lullaby has 3 or more tokens
C. Survivor misses a skill check while Lullaby has at least 1 tokenEeeeh, doesn't really fit the flavor to have it work like that, if anything that's something that should be added to Third Seal and Blindness as a whole, the hex totems appear as dull ones.
Not showing hex effect at all via hud is not the wey though, like ever, it would make hiding devour hope much more powerful. Granted, some hex perks definitely shouldn't reveal themselves at all, like Krasue's Hex or Undying.
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@Darkest_Night said:
Add one Perk Slot for killers. Make the total 5 instead of 4 for the killers, and see what balancing can occur from there. The 5th slot will allow for more flexibility and allows better meta shake up without overwhelming buffs/nerfs while also gathering extra data that can be used to fine tune anything that needs direct nerfs and buffs. 5 perks vs 16 perks seems like a fair trade in my personal opinion.
Generator kicks- Make them Unlimited, untill either 1 generator remains or 2 survivors remain. This will allow for better match quality ma it won't force anyone into a hard lock for either side. Generators have always been a source of trouble, but when the kicks were unlimited, it allowed for more creative play, and interesting ideas. Now that kicks are Limited, it forces everyone into a stagnant and stale meta that isn't fun. This will shake up the meta and allow for more creativity and experimentation with builds and, it will also help everyone get just a little better at understanding lesser seen perks
5 perk slots is something they should've experimented with like 5 years ago through some ptbs at least. Granted, I have a high suspicion that some rather specific builds will become so much stronger it will not be funny, but hey, T stands for testing so it's definitely worth a try. It would definitely bebetter than the cursed DR we got which shook the meta alright, by murdering it
As for gen kick limit, I feel like it should be unlimited, until last 2 gens are to be done, purely so that some perks like eruption or surge don't drain charges from potential future 3 gen killer might have to resort to
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Slam a 25% repair speed penalty while all survivors are alive and tunneling will be gone, ez
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@jesterkind said:
With a day and change between us and the Black Banquet ending, I wanted to write up a thing talking in a bit more depth about my feelings on the event, as well as some constructive criticism on what I'd want to see learned from it for whatever next year's anniversary will be.
To start, I want to go over some pros before we get to the cons. It's not just a futile attempt at even-handedness, though, I do genuinely think there were some good elements that should be highlighted in comparison to the (admittedly much more front and centre) bad parts that I'll get to afterwards.
For no particular reason other than that I like this format, I'll put the pros in bullet points, but the cons are probably going to be a bit more lengthy.- First off, and likely the least controversial comment imaginable, the presentation was fantastic. The visuals in-trial, the cosmetics (especially their descriptions this year, Dwight's was neat to read), and the neat little 3D object viewer that unlocked little lore teases were all really good and I do think that is worth mentioning. Good stuff there, all my gripes with this event are mechanical.
- Slight addendum to the above, I love that Tryks was mentioned again. Few people but me care, I'm sure, but contextualising Tryks not being here as her actively avoiding something she thinks is over the line was interesting.
- There are heavy asterisks on this one, but I liked the shape of this event, I thought the "courses" idea was interesting and I liked that - at least for survivors - this event had more structure and decisionmaking than previous ones. Again, my gripes are mechanical and I'll get into that below, but the overall shape of the Black Banquet was pretty solid and I'd like to see it repeated.
- Specifically, I think the invisibility was a good and well designed event ability in a vacuum. It was strong, so worth using, but could be used poorly and could be answered by the opponent. It's the only effect that I'd actually like to see come back.
That's all I wanted to highlight before getting into the meat of things. There were elements of this event to like, but they were overshadowed by the real brunt of the event's issues. Put simply, this event wasn't very fun to play, but just saying that isn't very constructive so I want to expand on it.
There are three major problems I had with this event, followed by cascading smaller ones that exacerbated the big ones. Those are:
- Survivors got far more interesting effects to play with; survivors had all the structure-defining gameplay with morsels and banquet tables, and they also had all the effects that actually opened up new gameplay scenarios, for lack of a better term.
- The one major thing killers got, the poison, was incredibly strong but incredibly boring. Throwing it on a survivor basically guaranteed a hit nine times out of ten, without much the survivor could've done to outplay or the killer could've done to really play around it intelligently. Throw bottle, follow survivor, hit them when they're forced to walk.
- Specifically the instant team-heal from filling a banquet was so unbelievably unfun and frustrating to face. The other effects ranged from kinda whatever to strong but reasonable, but the heal in particular was so aggressively awful to play against that it warrants a big bullet point here instead of being collected in smaller issues with the effects— not to mention that it was the one universal effect, so there wasn't any avoiding it.
With that out of the way I want to clarify that I don't think the survivor's array of effects were all stellar and fun to play with. The armour/invincibility was kinda bad due to the long startup and limited duration (the latter of which is obviously fair for balance, to be clear), the sprint was relatively boring, and consuming the morsel to see pallets wasn't very interesting either.
What I am saying though is that the survivor effects were at least designed to be interesting, especially the invincibility, and were underwhelming (when applicable) because of balancing. Given how this event tilted towards survivors overall I'm not complaining about that in a vacuum, but it's still valuable feedback.This is kind of the big issue overall, here. The problem with the Black Banquet, outside of stuff like the free heal (and honestly the unbreakable pallets too) being too strong in ways that could easily be iterated on for next time (alongside other small pain points like the portals becoming randomised making them way, way stronger for survivors unfairly), was plainly and simply that the interesting and structure-defining gameplay was only given to one side.
Being constructive, if the Black Banquet comes back next year - and the aesthetics/theme were great, I'd be totally down for that - then it needs to more evenly split its interesting mechanics across both roles.To clarify again: I don't actually care if an event balance-wise leans to one side more than another, as long as it doesn't tilt too far (like this one did) and as long as both sides at least have interesting toys to play with (like this one decidedly didn't).
A good point of comparison is the original Bone Chill, where only survivors got to play with the snowmen. They didn't offer much of a competitive advantage (they didn't, I was there, I've had this argument), but that doesn't really matter because it still only left one role able to play around. The current Bone Chill, with omni-role snowmen and a shared snowball fight mechanic, is basically perfect, and I have faith the Black Banquet can get there too with iteration.So, TL;DR repetition: Both sides need fun toys to play with, and generally speaking the actual strength of those toys probably should be toned down for both sides as well, because wow did some of those effects suck to play against.
I'm not gonna pitch too specific options for what this should look like, but even something as simple as engaging with the morsel/table system to get Undetectable at least opens up gameplay options for the killer, so it doesn't have to be as fancy and unique as the invisibility.Also bring Tryks back for more commentary on how awful the banquet is next time please and thank you :)
Yeah, they should take notes of the 4 horsemen of this event, and try not to recreate them in the future
The 4 horsemen being:
1. Unbreakable Pallets
2. Completely random portals for 60s during meal time
3. Team wide global heal
4. Killer's poison thrown directly at survivor
All 4 of these had kind of "play with yourself" design, where the other side doesn't really have options to counter them, outside of specific scenarios.
It's honestly kind of funny how design and presentation of the event were polar opposites
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A while ago I made a suggestion that undone would gain tokens for Great Skill checks instead of missed ones (I believe it was my first ever suggestion). That way, not only will it gain tokens against great survivors, it will also be a sort of information perk.
Sadly though it seems like Undone perk is just kinda omega forgotten and can only work on doctor against inexperienced players
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@Alen_Starkly said:
It's insane how rampant the usage of Lightborn has been during the event. But also in general, this perk has been problematic, and it needs to be addressed. It has 0 counterplay, no requirements to unlock/charge, and pushes survivors into super boring play. Killer's got Lightborn? Go sit on gens for ages…
Earlier this year I proposed that Lighborn be remade into a fair perk that challenges survivors. With the reworked Lightborn equipped:
- the timing for flashlight/-bangs/-crackers saves reverts to the old one, with much smaller time frame to blind the killer. This brings back that skill into flashy saves.
- upon picking up a survivor, all survivors within X meters around the killer become exhausted for Y seconds. You could also add the effect that any survivor within that range immediately reverts to base 4.0 m/s movement speed, even if they had already started sprint bursting. Background player doesn't trigger because of the exhaustion that activates prior to this. In other words, the survivors' movement speeds gets capped to 4.0m/s until the killer is out of the pickup animation.
So new Lightborn would have these 2 effects, (1) and (2). It wouldn't just be an easy impenetrable wall that the survivors can do nothing about. It would actually be fair, but more challenging. The perk called "Forever Entwined" from the Ghoul exists, as well as "Fire Up" from the Nightmare, in case you want to use those instead of this, or combined with this. Forever Entwined and Fire Up do not just blatantly block flashy saves, they make them harder, but doable.
While I personally would prefer the above-proposed rework to what I'm gonna mention now, I'll still mention it because it can have merit.
So, the other proposal would be to keep current Lighborn as it is, but add penalties to it. Similarly how No Mither has a penalty (an unhealable injured state), Lightborn would have penalties as well. Those would be +25% increased gen speeds and +25% increased wiggle bar progressing, throughout the whole match.
Reasoning number 1: if a survivor brought a flash-item, and now cannot use it and is forced into boredom (due to both inability to blind the killer AND leave the match without a penalty), then at least shorten the duration of that boredom. Make the gen speed faster, so the boring match can end sooner.
Reasoning number 2: just like No Mither can be used by experienced survivors to pull off interesting plays and challenge themselves, so can this version of Lightborn be used by killers. Streamers have already done something similar in the past, where they would AFK for the 1st 30 seconds of the match as killer, before starting to play. This version of Lightborn would facilitate those challenges by streamers (or any other people) that want to hard-challenge themselves. Trying to win with higher gen speeds and faster wiggle progress (hook planning needs to be really on-point) would be a gigachad work.
I would prefer the former solution, but the latter also has its merits. The current existing Lightborn though is ridiculous. Slapping on impenetrable shield because you don't want to work on baiting out flashy savers etc., which also makes survivors' match miserable, because they are forced to suffer through the boredom of doing gens. If you really struggle with people flashy saving against you, there are better, fair(er) options: Forever Entwined, Fire Up, Infectious Fright, Forced Hesitation, slugging.
If you've come this far, thank you for reading, I appreciate it. I'd just like to ask you to not bring in the "but the survivors have this/that…" into the equasion. Feel free to make separate posts for those things you'd like to change. My Lightborn rework proposals do not go against fixing unfair stuff that killers have to do deal with. Please do encourage the devs to change those, if you'd like. I have however, proposed fair changes to Lightborn, as well as alternative perks for dealing with flashy saves.
You need to specify what you mean by old timing of flashlight save. Do you mean that it has to be precise, with no 1 second d buffer during which it will still count, or do you mean the longer overall time required to do the blind?
If it's the latter, your rework really doesn't change anything, if blinds both need longer blind time, and the sprint perks are disabled by it pretty much, when blinding will be just as impossible to pull off.
Personally, I don't care about lightborn myself, I prefer Forever Entwined over it, though naturally forever Entwined is not a free perk.
Your second rework proposal however... +25% gen speed? Genuinely, are you insane? That's an obliteration nerf, not a fun challenging nerf
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Oooooh, you're right, I totally forgot that diminishing returns nuked even luck builds, yeah, because of it there really is no point in luck anymore
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099204#Comment_4099204
If it was completely hidden, like NOED, I could understand. But the person on the hook sees it. If I play in a duo I just type "monstrous" and my teammate knows to hurry it up. Let's face it, even if they did add a debuff indicator for the team, half the team would have no idea what it meant anyway…
Wait, hooked person already sees the monstrous shrine as notification? Lmao, this perk is never gonna be played then
Hm, well, I mean, being real, it won't change much anyway really, even if monstrous shrine is nerfed, perk is already unusable in current meta, and many survivors are already blissfully unaware what are UI notifications
But in my opinion, this ain't the right way to go about the gap between team players and solo survivors. The lack of tools to be used by solo survivors to somehow communicate, after 10 years, is honestly the bigger issue to this whole ordeal. I mean, 10 years, and we finally got the ability to see each other perks. 10 more years and we surely will get a tutorial which covers all UI specifics, right?
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
It would not be a nerf, it would be quality of life. I would gladly trade the debuff indicator for Turn Back the Clock (not very useful) for Monstrous Shrine. Anyway, it was just feedback, quite reasonable considering players on comms just send a message or tell their teammates. I find Monstrous a bit of a cheese perk and would rather not give the killer free stages.
It's nowhere close to QoL, revealing a perk in action to survivors will reduce it's power right away, it's similar to playing cards but your opponent is forced to reveal one of their cards for some reason
The weakness of the perk can be somewhat excused if it's a sneaky one, which monstrous shrine partially is (though 20% faster sacrifice should be noticable), removing the sneaky part will make this perk from useless to useless²
Also, funny trade of you suggested, yeah remove notification of obvious perk and replace it with one of hard to tell one
Again, with Decisive Strike comparison, would you list such change as QoL? I certainly wouldn't, if a killer could tell for sure whether a survivor had ds, it would obliterate the perk, making it useless to use, and greatly impact the gameplay
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Suggestion to nerf a never picker scourge perk is not something I had on my list in big 2026
Unironically, that can be done, and nothing will really change, because the perk is already run by at most 1-2 new killers who haven't unlocked all the perks yet
It's still kinda wild though, to suggest a nerf to a weak perk, without giving anything to compensate, and what a nerf, to simply tell survivors about the perk, I'm sorry, why do survivors deserve to be told about this particular perk of a killer? I can sort of understand some of them being told, like hex or those that apply status effect, but for monstrous shrine it's pretty much giving free info for no real reason
In exchange, Decisive strike should be visible as a glass shard in survivor hands whenever it's active, that's totally not gonna make perk worthless trust me
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@kawaiibats said:
For survivors:
No scratch marks for a while after being unhooked.
If the killer hooks the same survivor twice in a row, the haste given from being unhooked does not go away until healed or knocked down.
For killers:
If the killer hooks a survivor who is not the same as the last hooked survivor, the generator with the most progress goes down slightly (and/or perhaps highlighted).
[If you dragged the game out], (this benefit).
—BHVR's original anti-tunneling system made it too easy for the tunneled survivor to protect other survivors, which was definitely unintended. With this system, the killer can continue to target the same survivor three times in a row if they wish, it is just more difficult to match with the massive benefit the killer gains from tunneling one player out. I don't enjoy tunnelling, but I think there should be leeway to kill the same person three times still. I would say it's generally well known that if you remove one player quickly, then the game slows down drastically in the killer's favour. This should come at an increased difficulty rather than be both A) easier to do and B) the far stronger choice to win.
I also think the original system was far too punishing on the killer when they just so happened to hook the same survivor twice in a row. This happens frequently without targetting the unhooked player or otherwise tunneling — so I would give the injured player with 2 hook states a choice: if they are getting tunnelled out of the game, they receive a speed boost to help with their final chases. But if they are safe, they can be healed a health state instead and lose the speed boost. I feel like this would punish the killer mostly in cases when they chase the tunneled survivor to finish them quick, but not really affect incidental back-to-back hooks as much.
In my opinion there should be some sort of extra entity-given incentive for killers who prefer spreading hooks and causing pain on living survivors for as long as possible to do that, because I think those types of matches are more fun/fair for everyone in the match.
So an incentive to drag out the game/torture probably given by the entity. However, I'm not sure what the best metric to differentiate a killer's torture pleasing to the entity and deserving of a reward, versus an instant execution of most players which doesn't give the buff/reward.
I am unsure why people dislike the infinite haste for tunneled survivor, technically speaking it's going to be a 1 time thing only (unless ofc Shoulder the burden but that's a different topic). Even with such system you still can pretty much tunnel someone out you just need 1 hook in-between 1st and 2nd hook of survivor you wanna tunnel out.
One can say it's again, hand holding, giving free stuff for survivors, but if it comes together with some good stuff for killers who spread hooks? Hell yeah count me in.
On the other hand, the flaws of your system are similar to design of Pain Res. It sounds like a design to discourage tunneling, but ends up working much better after tunneling. Similarly, if a killer tunnels a survivor out, they now also get the passive benefit of spreading hooks since that's usually what is done after.
It is why imo to design a proper hook spread or anti tunnel system, it needs to be separated into different scenarios, depending on the state of the game. Because frankly speaking, a full meta Blight killing someone at 5 gens, and a trapper on his last gen who really needs that kill as fast as possible shouldn't be treated as similar situations
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@Scr3am3r said:
I play killer and have almost 300 hours in the game, yet every match feels like a coin flip.
One match I get survivors with around 1000 combined hours who play worse than bots and rarely manage to finish even 3 generators. The next match I'm against a squad with over 20000 combined hours that finishes all 5 generators in about 6 minutes.
Yes, total playtime isn't a perfect measure of skill. But let's be honest—most of the time there's a huge difference between someone with 300 hours and someone with 5,000. On top of that, I've reached the highest Killer Grade, yet that doesn't seem to make the matches any more consistent.
Killer queues already take 6–8 min, while Steam alone often has over 100,000 online. With that kind of player base and queue time, it should be entirely possible to create much fairer lobbies. I wouldn't mind waiting another couple of minutes if it meant getting opponents around my skill level.
I dont want to win every match. I dont mind losing. I just want competitive games instead of matches that are complete stomps in either direction.
Dead by Daylight is one of the most successful asymmetrical multiplayer games on the market. That's exactly why it's disappointing to see matchmaking feel so inconsistent. I've played much smaller online games with far better matchmaking, and I think a game this successful should be able to do the same.
Wowee what is this truth nuke
In all seriousness ye, ever since sbmm dropped my enjoyment of playing killer dropped straight to 0 real fast. It's indeed as you say, you either get 4 newbies which don't know what are gens, or 4 really good players, there is no in-between. And it's just not fun when games go completely in one direction, either killer stomping or getting stomped.
Thought truth be told, I am no expert in this area, so I can't even propose any sort of alternative
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@Scr3am3r said:
I play killer and have almost 300 hours in the game, yet every match feels like a coin flip.
One match I get survivors with around 1000 combined hours who play worse than bots and rarely manage to finish even 3 generators. The next match I'm against a squad with over 20000 combined hours that finishes all 5 generators in about 6 minutes.
Yes, total playtime isn't a perfect measure of skill. But let's be honest—most of the time there's a huge difference between someone with 300 hours and someone with 5,000. On top of that, I've reached the highest Killer Grade, yet that doesn't seem to make the matches any more consistent.
Killer queues already take 6–8 min, while Steam alone often has over 100,000 online. With that kind of player base and queue time, it should be entirely possible to create much fairer lobbies. I wouldn't mind waiting another couple of minutes if it meant getting opponents around my skill level.
I dont want to win every match. I dont mind losing. I just want competitive games instead of matches that are complete stomps in either direction.
Dead by Daylight is one of the most successful asymmetrical multiplayer games on the market. That's exactly why it's disappointing to see matchmaking feel so inconsistent. I've played much smaller online games with far better matchmaking, and I think a game this successful should be able to do the same.
Wowee what is this truth nuke
In truth ye ever since sbmm dropped my enjoyment of playing killer dropped straight to 0 real fast. It's indeed as you say, you either get 4 newbies which don't know what are gens, or 4 really good players, there is no in-between. And it's just not fun when games go completely in one direction, either killer stomping or getting stomped.
Thought truth be told, I am no expert in this area, so I can't even propose any sort of alternative
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@MashedBroccoli said:
god no, please no. It wasn’t just about the scratch marks, it was just ugly design period and looked like spaghetti vomit.
Well, to each their own. I liked the old lighting, it was unique, and not as bland as other maps. I can agree though that maybe it was a bit too bright.
Honestly, they should do a poll asking community whether or not we want old lighting on Borgo
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@HexSlugged said:
i didnt dislike the original lighting much but i remember the map design feeling terrible but i cant remember exactly why
Most likely you remember the last iteration of it before the lighting change, and Borgo was plain empty then. There were like 8 loops spread over whole map, it wasn't really interesting to play on as survivor
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
This is an amazing idea, you should post this on other socials too to make sure they see it!
Probably should do that, but I am not really aware of any other place except for Reddit
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4091584#Comment_4091584
I like the spikes in general. Granted, I almost never see them fully block a Gen, but I like the visuals and the sounds. But they appear after 4 Kicks or so? Which is really irritating for me, because I always think "Wait, I should not be that close to the limit" and in reality, I am not close to it.
Another advantage of the proposal would be that a Killer can see before they kick the Gen how many Kicks are left. Would help with decision making to kick it right now or maybe risk it to wait a bit longer when there is a PGTW to use on that Gen.
I am pretty sure, though can't confirm, that spikes start after 4th kick and then rise higher with each kick, but even if it's true, then such system is not really comfortable fro killer, sometimes you need to look around right away instead of looking at the generator, especially if you use something like turn back the clock
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Would be a way better way to display it than the spikes. I find the spikes quite irritating since they already appear when you are quite far away from reaching the limit.
If only there was some info on how to tell via spikes at least. But honestly, the absolutely crisp sound of spikes themselves is so good I would wish they stayed even if suggestion above gets implemented
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@pidgeon said:
I'm pretty sure matches that were abandoned aren't taken into consideration for anything, could be wrong tho. Either way most people are at the soft cap for MMR so it likely won't affect you as long as you consistently play the game. This is why in some lobbies you get the best survivor teammates you've ever had, then you get potatoes.
Oh I already got the answer, this post is ancient and was made like a week ago but only now went through, so yeah this is irrelevant now
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Thank you, feeling a little stupid now, checked various sources except for the obvious one
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089750#Comment_4089750
No it does not count as a draw it counts as a loss in that situation. The only time it is counted as a draw is when the survivor in question is the last survivor and all other survivors in the match are bots.
Survivors have three possible Abandoning situations and the third one so far not mentioned is "Entering the Dying State a third time after having previously recovered or healed from it twice" willing going into dying state does not count like Plot Twist. This one also is counted as a loss.
Killer has two possible Abandoning situations. First is if all survivors are bots this is counted as a draw. Second is if there is no gen been finished in the last 10 minutes this one is counted as a loss.
Can you tell where to find info about those 3 survivor abandon options? I can't seem to find any mention of it
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@Wezqu said:
It does not count as escapes. Its just shown like that in the stats site. It has been tested by people confirming its just visual.
Abandoning by MMR either counts as a draw or loss depends of the abandon option. Its never a win.
The only info I found was that a scenario in which all survivors are in the dying state, then they can abandon, and the match will be considered a draw. Granted, this info is 1 year old, but if still holds true, then that's just absolutely wrong way to go about it.
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@CrimsonMothKing said:
The only part of his kit I don't like is the fact that he gains haste after using his jumpscare. What is the point of making him 110% if he can just counter act it permanently.
Springtrap needs to lose his ranged attack to be 115% but Jason just needs to tp on a short cooldown. His other issues are fixable with number tweaks, but his haste is the only thing I believe should be taken away.
Edit: For those that don't know; After triggering a Jumpscare, Jason gains 4.5454 % for 25 seconds. Omniprescent Evil is on a 12 second cooldown
Edit 2: Also, when impaled by a Hook Spike. Jason can see the Spike through walls and survivors trying to remove the Spike are Hindered by 10%. Letting go of this action resets it's progress. He doesn't need to have haste when this mechanic exists.
I honestly can't tell? It's same thing as with Ghoul or Vecna II, technically there is a cool down, but they are in their special ability 24/7 so what's the point? It's a bizarre design, problematic, maybe not, maybe yes, but bizarre nonetheless
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@Feather said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086564#Comment_4086564
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086563#Comment_4086563
The Reason this perk combo is bugging me is Soloq. As you two pointed out, you can let go of a gen and proc dms on other generator. But in soloq you can get team mates that eat that combo every time.
Well, yes, but that's an issue of solo q having some... special players, not a perk combo issue. In general a lot of issues which fall under the category of "Pub stomping" is that A) Game doesn't teach people about killer specific power that well, yes the infamous useless tutorial. And B) People themselves not really learning, I mean, pain res dms combo should be as obvious as not step on the same rake twice, buuuuut
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Well, maybe if you ask nicely, I would consider sharing the secret info
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086215#Comment_4086215
It's not any more brain dead tunneling which is already a basekit thing killers can do. Camping, tunneling, and slugging all remove survivor agency for far longer than 15 seconds and have far less counterplay than count to 15. Do you support removing that as well or is this a my side deserves special favors kinda deal?
"Tunneling which is already a basekit thing killers can do"
Damn, killers can kill survivors, what a discovery.
Sorry but if you think camping/slugging/tunneling completely removes survivor agency, with plenty things survivors can do to reduce how effective it is, I don't think you can be convinced really
Just using your argument, should survivor be unable to repair gens under certain conditions? I mean, it's same thing really, it's basekit thing they can do
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086079#Comment_4086079
Okay, easy solution, they can't use items while in this hypothetical mode. Seriously if that's your only reason to be against this idea then problem solved.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086046#Comment_4086046
Lol, bait used to be better.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086066#Comment_4086066
Killers can just camp, feel like people forget the fact that the anti-camp doesn't really work.
Of course it's not my only issue with god mode, this was a hypothetical first idea I got after imagining what a change like that would be in an actual game.
My bigger issue with the whole idea of buffing anti tunnel even more, is that it was recently already omega buffed to braindead 15 seconds, if one needs EVEN MORE, that's saying a lot.
And in general, a godmode of any kind is an absolute no go, that's robbing killer of any agency, even if for 15 seconds.
And the examples of Yoshirama, I am sorry, is the action of unhooking supposed to be omega safe for the unhooked? Why should they be so Uber safe by default? That sounds stupid for an assymetrical game
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Survivor goes I to basement to unhook -> killer follows cuz why wouldn't they -> downs the unhooker -> unhooked survivor is in god mode but has a flashlight -> killer can't pick up cuz flashlight -> downed survivor picks themselves up with that perk from Michonne and endurance from that Cheryl perk -> guess killer should've played around it
In short, does tunneling need adjustment? Idk, maybe? I would prefer spreading hooks to be beneficial first and then maybe adjust tunneling. Does tunneling need your style of adjustment? Hell no, why would you even think an actual god mode no matter the conditions should be in the game
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@Mandy said:
There are no plans to have live design changes during new content release - history has shown us that this is more problematic in getting feedback on new content as well as the changes.
By history has shown it's problematic, do you mean mainly the ptb krasue patch and the one after with those massive changes to pretty much everything? (9.2.0 and 9.4.0 I believe)
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@kit_mason said:
…which vecna? at no point does this post explain enough about what makes the killer OP that it specifies which of the two vecnas you're talking about.
i could make an educated guess but i imagine bhvr's devs won't want to.
Considering such feedback regarding D&D Vecna can be easily described as "absolute lunacy" I believe it's regarding Henry. And tbh I can see it as being true Henry is an absolute pub stomper
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I actually do have an experience with what op means, I had Jake vault a window and stand behind the wall next to the window to check my next move. I wanted to vault the window, but instead when I dashed into it I simply grabbed the Jake behind a solid wall like it didn't exist. Happened at mother's dwelling main God window. Not sure it's easy to replicate but yeah that was the single most bullshit grab in my entire time playing
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/467191/2v8-executioner
I agree with this. PH feels really solid in 1v4, but in 2v8 he struggles a lot compared to other killers. His movement and map control feel too slow for how big the maps are in that mode, so his power ends up feeling kind of underwhelming.
I’d love to see some adjustments for him specifically in 2v8 so he doesn’t feel so outclassed.I would argue it was extremely obvious he would be terrible when he was first announced, because whatever makes him solid in 1v4 is absent in 2v8. Cages? Basekit. Zoning with power? Less reliable because pallets can spawn very close with each other.
And tbh I am not even sure what kind of buff he should get to make him actually decent, and the buff itself not being a solid rework by itself, because I feel like his power alone, no matter how much you buff, will still be lacking in 2v8
And tbh, Pyramid Head is not alone in this, I feel like killers with no mobility need extra help in 2v8, those with mobility don't really struggle with increased sizes of map, but those that don't can spend majority of time simply walking back and forth, exception being Nemesis I guess, his non-mobility is covered by zembies
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@Lexilogo said:
This is also what I would like to see too as an upgrade to SoloQ communication. We don't need detailed emotes or voice chat, just a quick set of things to communicate these simple things. I don't think it should come with a bubble ping but other than that I think it'd be a great addition.
To be specific about what I think should be on such a wheel:
- "Danger near me"
- "It's safe near me"
- "I'll repair generators" (at end of trial, changes to "I'll open gates")
- "I'll cleanse totems"
- "I'll unhook"
- "We should heal"
Six simple prompts, little to no potential for BMing with a cooldown for spam, covers most important Survivor comms with the exception of specific communication about areas on the map, like clock callouts or specifically saying which generator you're working on
I think the best route for changing that would be some UI icons for specific locations, like shack/main/basement, but that obviously doesn't apply equally for every map, and would probably need some custom UI icons for certain maps to communicate things like main building on Pale Rose being a boat. It would most likely need bespoke landmark icons on many maps
I feel like notification bubble could at least be tested on something like PTB, but more likely that it would indeed be too much since it would somewhat render aura perks of survivors like Kindred useless.
As for map specifics, yeah I am pretty sure wheel can't cover that, some maps don't even have shack or main so to say, so putting location would be much too complex, and to be honest I am not sure if it's really as needed as the wheel, it would be already great to at least have a little idea of what your teammates are up to
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No, it won't make 3 genning possible as before
"At 2 gens left, you start to get a physical gen kick counter, starting at 10 on each gen, perks that don’t need you to physically KICK a generator do NOT add to this counter and are not included."
"At 1 gen left, perk regressions now have their own 8 limit counter. Any kicks you’ve done at 2 gens left on any gens left at 1, are subtracted to the counter"
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@P38Springy said:
Now I don’t mind the killer regression we have now a TON, but I’d love to see it get reworked, since the way it works now with any gen regression counting together globally (Kicks AND perks) the whole trial is really bad for killers like Trapper and others who require setup at the start of the game.
So, to fix it! Here’s my idea I thought about just now (Had Google help me put this into better words) :
Phase 1 (5 to 3 Generators Remaining) - Complete Freedom - Manual kicks and automated perk explosions trigger infinitely. There are no hidden global penalty clocks running early on. This allows setup killers to establish their map presence completely safely.
2 GENS LEFT: Perks Free / 10 Kicks - Individual generators receive an independent pool of 10 manual kicks. Passive perk explosions (like Surge or Eruption) run 100% free. Input-Only Tracking applies, meaning secondary shockwaves from perks like Oppression do not add tokens to distant generators.
1 GEN LEFT (The 3-Gen): The Dual-Counter Split - The Perk Counter is hard-capped at 8 automated explosions max. The Kick Counter is hard-capped at 10 manual kicks max, minus any kicks used on that generator during the 2-gen stage. Input-Only Tracking remains active so secondary explosions never bleed over to separate counters.
To summarize this : At 5 to 3 gens left, you get infinite kick and perk regression. No limits here since you’d be good at keeping pressure this early.
At 2 gens left, you start to get a physical gen kick counter, starting at 10 on each gen, perks that don’t need you to physically KICK a generator do NOT add to this counter and are not included.
At 1 gen left, perk regressions now have their own 8 limit counter. Any kicks you’ve done at 2 gens left on any gens left at 1, are subtracted to the counter.
(Basically any regression perk that requires you to physically kick the gen counts as a normal gen kick to the 10 limit [Overcharge, Undone, Pop, Call of Brine, Eruption, Oppression, Etc.] and any regression from something like Eruption or Oppression on OTHER gens don’t count towards either counter, only on the gen you initiated the damage action onto.)
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this, my first post here as well!
I really like the part of 5-3 gens remaining having infinite kicks, rewards killers who manage to protect those early gens well, and fixes one issue of perks like Surge which can screw you over later in the end game. Might bring gen kick perks back to life though I believe it won't be as potent as it was back in call of brine/eruption days.
Part with 2-1 gens left I think is way too complicated, and I feel like the 8 kick limit would be just fine at such stage already. Plus the survivors themselves would still be capable of still breaking the 3 gen properly
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@Yoshirama said:
I don't know why such mechanic just exist to screw SoloQ
When you were writing this, did you stop for a second to think which auras survivors see by default without using any aura perks? Because they only see aura's of downed and hooked survivors without using any perks. Technically you also see survivors aura when you are the one on hook but that's hardly affected by blindness. Your suggestion would make perk like Hex: Third Seal do literally nothing by default, which makes me believe that you thoughtlessly wrote this suggestion
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Yes, they should add anti camp in endgame, it's really unfair that a killer can just facecamp in end game instead of trying to get another survivor. I think they should also make it so if killer hooks someone twice, that person should be granted complete immunity for like 2-3 minutes, so that they can play the game instead of being tunneled
Oh and they should definitely remove bloodlust and window entity blocker, these mechanics are very outdated and make survivor experience not as great.
Oh and if killer is playing around 3 gen, the gens should start repairing themselves after 1 minute of inactivity
And they should also make something like bamboozle a one time use only, basically you can only block a vault once per game, for every window
And like really, basement is just too killer favored imo, they should add 2 more entrances to it
Almost forgot, but they should make it so the area under the hook grants complete immunity after the unhook for about 30 seconds, too many killers don't let people heal right under it
Then with all these changes the game will finally be good, cuz as of right now there is still too much thinking processes required to play survivor, I don't like that
Yea sorry a bit of a vent
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
Sprint Burst isn't so bad when you play with the other killer and cut them off, but it's designed for those kinds of situations.
Otherwise there wouldn't be many options when killers decide to work together, games would become really one-sidedI can't agree it was designed for 2v1 chases in mind, because if both killers work together against 1 survivor, nothing will help that 1 survivor, no sprint burst on demand no Uber safe pallet
If anything, needing the other killer to deal with escapist effectively really only proves that escapist is not balanced. And even if escapist was nerfed/reverted, it wouldn't suddenly make killer working together a no risk strategy, since that's still 2 killers chasing a single survivor out of 8
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/466796/2v8-escapist
Its strong but I don't think it needs a nerf.
It's previous version of just a normal sprint burst was already strong but balanced, current one is a swiss knife of glorious utility due to how many scenarios in can be used in
Getting caught by a stealth killer, or in an open field, or making a mistake in positioning, or baiting lunge, or pre running, or map traversal, or greeding, in all these scenarios sprint burst on demand is so much more powerful than a regular one due to simply having complete control over when it's used