Artimenius1307
Artimenius1307
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@MrMori said:
I think it's high time something is done about the awful 2v1 situation when 2 players are dead before at least 3-4 gens are done. Realistically, there's very little the survivors can do in this situation, especially if the killer is strong and they know they won't last for many minutes in chase while the other player does gens, if they even choose to do gens. This will be a pretty long post, but I have some interesting mechanics and changes I think would make the 2v1 much more interesting and seamless, less frustrating, and more rewarding for everyone involved.
I have a list of some general changes that I think would discourage hiding in the 2v1, while also making it less painful and more seamless for all players, and make it less of an ego thing where the killer desperately wants the 4k, while the survivors desperately hide to avoid being the person found next who will inevitably die and get nothing for it instead of a juicy escape bonus and potentially a hatch objective bonus on top for some reason.
Here's the changes:
General:- Each generator completed in the trial now awards all living survivors with 1000 Survival points (So once all 5 gens are completed, all the survivors will have 5000 Survival points each without having escaped)
- Survived score event reduced from 7000 to 2000 (You're still getting 7000 Survival points total for doing all the gens and escaping, but you'll get less total if you survive by getting hatch or gates without getting gens done)
- Survived score event from hatch reduced from 7000 to 1000 (You'll still also have whatever points you and your team earned by doing generators up until you got hatch)
- Hatch now automatically closes in 60 seconds
- 2500 Objective point bonus from Hatch escape removed
- Killer adepts now only require a 3k, not a 4k
2v1 specific changes that only apply once only 2 survivors are alive:
- Survivors can self-pickup after being down for 30 seconds and having a full recovery bar
- All bloodpoints earned are doubled (Except Survival points)
New 2v1 mechanic: Self-sacrifice
- Survivors can self sacrifice by activating a special prompt while downed. Doing so, the survivor will begin channeling The Entity in a cool animation that lasts 10 seconds. If the killer does not pick them up during this time, the survivor will sacrifice themselves to give their teammate a chance at hatch. This will give them 1000 Survival points as a bonus. If the killer picks the self-sacrificing survivor up, they MUST hook them, or they will immediately be sacrificed once dropped or if they wiggle off.
New 1v1 killer mechanic: Soul Offering
- Once 3 players are dead, a new object spawns in the basement, a dark portal the killer can use to communicate with The Entity. The killer can interact with this object to offer the souls of the 3 survivors they killed. Doing so will play a special animation and give 1000 Sacrifice points, but it will also cause the killer to leave the trial without it ending for the remaining survivor. This will immediately trigger EGC for the last survivor. The last survivor can now leave either through hatch or gates uncontested, or just abandon since the last survivor always has the option to abandon if they can't be bothered.
- This basically would work as a "I got my 3k, can't be bothered to find the last guy, I win, last survivor can do whatever they want, I'm out" option for killers that consider the game finished after 3 kills, and also works as an "official" second win condition for killer other than killing all four survivors.
And that's it. Do you guys this this would help make the final 2v1 less boring, pointless feeling, and lame? I'll give my explanations as to why I think it would here:
First of all, if we're thinking bloodpoints, there's currently very little reward for actually trying to do gens or taking chase in the 2v1. Chances are you'll get found and killed without getting much of anything, maybe some chase points. So why not give the remaining survivors more points for trying to actually progress the game? Not only that, but I've always felt it to be pretty lame how survivors can do their objective and get almost zero Survival points if they get killed near the end. It makes no sense and punishes survivors that actually play altruistically in the endgame. It's like if Sacrifice points for killer were only given for kills and not hooks. That would be dumb, so why is this how it works for survivors?
Second, self-sacrifice and self-pickup options. This gives the survivors two paths to take if they're found, both of which force the killer to sacrifice them, eliminating the awfully, mindnumbingly boring aspect of being the second to last survivor being slugged for a 4k. Instead, now the second to last survivor can choose to recover, continuing to do gens and actually try to turn the game around. If the game feels hopeless anyway, then they will still get a small consolation prize for actually surviving to be part of the last 2 survivors, as well as possibly trying to do gens, take chase, or whatever to grab the killers attention. Either way, the killer is forced to kill the second to last survivor, or they might either fight for their life and turn the game around, or screw your slug attempt over by self-sacrificing and giving the last survivor a chance at hatch.
And third the "Soul Offering" mechanic. Personally, I don't care what happens to the last and I find the whole hatch part of the game boring. It's also not uncommon for survivors that don't get hatch to simply hide for 2 minutes during EGC to waste time. Why not skip all that and let the killer simply declare their victory and departure, and leave the survivor with their consolation prize? And again, it's only an option. If the killer really wants the 4k, they can still choose to look for hatch and the last survivor to try and secure it. This simply gives the killer a quicker option to say "Got my 3k, I win, I'm out" and move on to the next match if they find the 1v1 boring and RNG, like I do.
Honestly well thought out changes, but if I were to add something, I would cover the situations in which 1 survivor is downed, but the other one is actively being chased. It's a rather common scenario where killer finds both survivors, downs one, and then follow the other which is still in line of sight/their general location is known. I feel like the ability to pick oneself should be disabled in such scenario, otherwise it might result into endless (well not really endless because bleed out timer) back and forth slugs → chases, which won't solve the problem of slugging for 4k but make it more obnoxious for both sides instead.
I also feel like self-sacrifice needs some sort of condition to activate as well, because from personal experience, I have sometimes slugged in 2v1 when I downed, but then thought that I saw the other survivor, went to the area to check, discovered nothing and went back to pick up the slug. Plus it affects the Adept gamers, though those are rare -
I really hope these Wesker fixes imply that bhvr will finally fix the incredible amount of bugs related to the techs, but then bring back those they find fitting as intended feature, so that it's no longer extremely specific, clearer and more accessible to all players, so that I no longer have to guess whether or not the killer I face atm is abusing the bugs or plays normally, and that I can do that myself as killer without feeling like I exploit bugs. They did that with Oni 180, so I hope this is something that will be done for most buggy killers, especially a certain pinball one
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@HexPectoPatronum said:
First: I play both sides nearly equally (2 survivor matches between 2 killer matches), play 2v8 since the beginning and have 8k hours in DbD.
1.) 10 generators instead of 8
You doubled everything in 2v8 except the gens and I don't understand why. I had a few matches where 5 gens were done in like 3-4 minutes while the killers only gained 2-3 hookstages meanwhile. I usually escape as survivor in 2v8 unless my team and myself "let the killers win", because we're too altruistic or don't do gens quick enough. If the survivors are just trying in 2v8, the killers usually have hardly a chance.
2.) Pallet density is still a problem
The pallet density in 2v8 seems still unbalanced on certain maps. On Red Forest or Shattered Square for example you have multiple pallets like every 3 metres and often doubled. Meanwhile on other maps like Coldwind Farm I still notice dead zones (I'm not talking about the edge of the map).
3.) Escapist is OP
The only role I have a problem with is Escapist, because you shouldn't be able to dodge a hit by using a button (that gives me old Dead Hard flashbacks). Sprint Burst is nothing compared to Escapist because you can already be running and still trigger Escapist and not just for yourself, but also for your mates. It's just too strong, I hardly play it myself as survivor.
I feel like increasing the amount of gens to 10 will not be a good way to go, true, it will be more balanced gameplay wise, but this will only increase the issue of all 2v8s so far: survivor will be even less fun to play as, and it is already borderline snoozefest as survivor because of how much the odds are in your favor and how boring it is to repair gens. If anything, I think a separate objective is a better way to go, one that isn't just holding m1 forever, but honestly can't suggest much, feel like dbd is very limited in that sense
As for pallet density, 100% agree, I could understand it if it was either a lot of pallets, but they aren't as safe, or some pallets, but they are pretty safe, but it is both a lot of pallets and they are safe, couple that with Scout ability to restore pallets, and even looping becomes extremely boring because unless it's SS tier killer, you can't do ######### about this pallets, namely, the greatly designed pallet on Yamaoka in between 2 shack sized logs. The spawns are also very inconsistent, some maps indeed have a pallet or a tile very 3m, while others have them spread around 10-15m apart
Escapist has been op for how many iterations now? I don't think they will change that, but if they do, well that would be more reason to tolerate 30 mins ques as killer. Right now though, with Escapist granting a chase start where you want? Naaaah -
@Rokku_Rorru said:
The recent survivor perks have all been really boring and overly undertuned and I'm really sick of it LOL
True, though it's understandable, the survivor's gameplay loop is exactly the same as back in 2016, and with general design unchanged the perks will eventually become dull and empty design wise because pretty much everything is already covered by them. It's why I believe if changing the gameplay itself is too hard to do, they could introduce perks which themselves change how the game is played for survivors, it could be pretty much anything, different ways of healing, doing gens, map maneuver, interactions with killer belongings like hooks, items or addons, anything
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@maybesarahhh said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049861#Comment_4049861
My apologies in advance for another long-winded reply, but I am enjoying this conversation lol.
Thank you for the edit, I now understand what you were meaning better! I genuinely tried before the edit and just wasn't 100% sure where you were going with it and was unfortunately a little bit off. As for the idea that there is no rush with a slug, I don't know that that is necessarily true. Yes, the timer is longer, but when it's over you're done. It's not like gaining another hook state where you still have another shot at life. There is also currently no way to regenerate the bleed out bar, it stays at the same amount it was at when you were last picked up the next time you go down. (Maybe a med kit addon for this or something could be an interesting thing for the devs to add?) I guess I could see the argument to make the anticamp timer (if that is what they decided to do) a little longer for a slugged survivor than a hooked one for these reason, though.
I do agree that the anticamp system could be better, but it also does work as intended sometimes (not as much as I would like, but still better than nothing). I guess the way I see it, when I'm playing survivor I'd rather have an option to get up in that situation, even if it did mean I'm instantly in another chase. That's at least fun. I don't really care about whether or not I escape, tbh. I play this game for a good time, not to run out of the exit gate. Don't take this as "I just throw I don't even try" because I try as hard as I can to either escape myself or make a sacrifice so my team can escape, I just don't need it to happen to enjoy the game (I hope this makes sense).
With how I play killer, adding a slug anticamp timer likely would have no affect on me at all, unless I'm making a dumb mistake (which would be on me lol) like being too paranoid looking for other survs or losing them in the grass because I have limited hearing abilities so the directionality is hard for me to catch sometimes. I'm having a hard time seeing how adding one would be unhealthy, I guess. I understand your argument for why you don't like it and why it's not perfect and I agree, but I just feel like it is better than nothing.
As for your example which cases to cover with anti-slug timer, I am genuinely confused, do killers in your games actually just stand on top of a slug and don't do anything? This style of gameplay is pretty much a game throw, no? I honestly haven't seen anyone play like that pretty much ever.
Yes, this happens maybe every third match for me. It's…. exhuasting tbh. I'm not the best player ever, nor do I think I'm the worst. I'd like to think I'm somewhere in the "average" category, maybe slightly above average. So I suppose it could just have something to do with my specific MMR and the fact that I typically play in the evening (which tends to be more toxic than daytime/morning games) but it happens a ton in my lobbies. I think I would be less adamant for a fix of some kind, even if it isn't perfect or the most useful in every instance, if I wasn't laying on the floor bleeding out in 15-20% of my matches. It's also just kinda frustrating bleeding out at zero hooks on every single person. It's just shorting survivors' ability to participate in the game.
As for the style of gameplay being a throw…. usually I would say yes, but for certain killers it really is difficult to counter, especially without a full SWF (which I almost never have). Example: the other night I was playing with a friend (so just a duo, 2 randoms) and we got in a match with a slugging clown and it was borderline psychological torture. he never hooked anyone, even when it was safe to do so. He would just slug, then throw purple bottles, walk away and kick a gen, come back and throw purple bottles, walk away and down another survivor, throw purple bottles on both, etc. I'm not even sure what we could have done to counter this style of gameplay, even with a full team. Nobody had hardened (it was chaos shuffle but also do people ever run that perk?) so they couldn't go through the mist to pick up survivors without clown instantly returning (he was returning as soon as he saw they were up on the HUD anyway but those few extra seconds are crucial to making sure at least one survivor stays up). They also couldn't work on gens because then they were just getting slugged whenever they tried. The match lasted almost 45 minutes. Everyone died to bleed out, not a single hook or mori. We tried to spread out, but we were on a small map (red forest temple). It was obvious this person got enjoyment out of making us suffer, because he managed to get all four slugged maybe 5 minutes into the game, but let my duo wiggle and pick someone up before starting the same exact pattern back up. He could have hooked all of us and moved on with his day but decided not to. That wasn't a mercy drop, it was because that clown wanted to make us bleed out and be miserable the entire match. I just find this playstyle problematic, for obvious reasons. Like yeah, I can just go next and emotionally I'm fine after the match, but I wasted a third of my available gaming time for the evening in this one match. I suppose I could have abandoned, but that kind of seems like a bandaid for a bigger problem, which is that this is even possible in the first place.
Regarding the hard tunneling, well, it's a hard issue to find solution for, as I said before, preferably I would want spreading hooks to be rewarded, so it is an actual choice between tunneling, which benefits you greatly, and not tunneling, which doesn't benefit you at all. Whenever I play killer I prefer to go with spreading hooks, and let me tell you, the game more often than not punishes me for doing so with quick gens, to be fair, I do run little slowdowns and I am no professional, but still.
I play with a similar game style when I play killer and I have to agree I wish there was a bigger reward for playing in a way that doesn't BM other players and spreading out pressure on different survivors. It would also be great to see better rewards for looping. Like, if I'm playing survivor and I manage to loop the killer for 4 gens, why am I always the lowest on the scoreboard? I arguably did the most difficult task for the longest amount of time, yet get punished because I didn't touch a generator during that time, even though there is no way I could have with the killer chasing me. Idk maybe these kinds of incentives would lower the amount of slugging/tunneling in games just because we want more BPs. I also wish if you get hard tunneled but waste enough of the killer's time to get a 3 out, that should still count as a victory towards your MMR. Like, ultimately it was your effort that got the team a win.
There is actually a long history of all the killer strategies getting nerfed to such oblivion that they either barely work or don't really work at all. Slugging, camping, hit and run, 3 gen (Thank got this one was removed though), all those strategies were nerfed quite severely to the point that they became far less effective, but guess which strategy was barely touched? That's right, it's the tunneling. Not saying they should nerf tunneling in it's entirety though, only the hard one. Preferably also make other strategies, except for 3 gen, more viable again.
You could say this about both sides to be completely honest. Survivors have seen so many nerfs over the years: Spine Chill, Distortion, Conviction (although this one is still good, not being able to get the charge on a self heal anymore is rough in certain matches), med kit addons, flashlights, perma-loops (3 vault limit in chase), early hatch escapes, keys and maps, pallet spawns (this could be argued for either side honestly, this seems to be constantly changing. understandable, they are working to find balance I think), self care, etc… It's all in the name of balance, which I think makes sense. They also recently started punishing survivors for countering the tunnel/slug by leaving people there to die and just getting the gens done and leaving. People get bans for this, so it forces them to put themselves in a bad position (they have to attempt to do something for the other survivor or else they will get a ban), thus rewarding the killer for proxying or whatever the situation may be that made it undesirable to intervene in the first place.
What I think a lot of the player base doesn't understand (not saying you because it seems like you actually have a pretty balanced take on this stuff) is these changes are constantly happening on both sides of the coin and it is a good thing (for the most part). Nerfs don't happen because a playstyle is bad, they happen because a playstyle is too strong for the other side to reasonably counter with average level players (we can't lump the super high MMR players who have been playing since launch and only play in SWFs into this and I fear a lot of people who only play killer act like this is what the entire survivor base is like when in reality it's only the top maybe 10% of players).
And personally, what I would do for anti tunnel system? Hmmmm, well, I did have an idea of first 3 unhooks getting different kind of protection, one where you get only 5 seconds of endurance (10 if basement) which cannot be modified with perks in any way, but something like 20-30 seconds of 15% Haste. Short duration of endurance so that you do not go straight with bodyblocking, and prioritize getting the heck away, and lengthy haste so that chasing you is still an option, but with a heavy price. The rest of the unhooks get current 15 seconds of each. And honestly should be shortened in egc it is so dumb how I just shift w into exit games in egc and killer can only watch me
This is a good alternate suggestion to be honest! Although I do think the 10 seconds of endurance should probably stay unless we make the first 10 seconds even faster (say 50% haste) so they actually have an opportunity to get distance from the killer (reminder we have so many dash killers nowadays). Obviously I don't know the perfect numbers without any PTB with this type of thing in my time playing on PC (i played on console for years before i swapped over a few months ago), so those numbers could be fine tuned based on a PTB.
Oh I don't think such anti-slug system would be unhealthy for the game, however it must be looked at from the point of view of "How can bully squads abuse this?". They are notorious after all for not caring about escaping as much, opting for ruining killer's experience as much as they can instead. If I were to add, I would probably make the radius for the other survivor canceling timer build up larger, instead of making the build up itself longer. In the slug cases, it is more likely that the killer will be closer to the slug rather than survivor, especially with Background Player or Sprint Burst making it way safer to do.
I am gonna be honest, I am indeed very surprised that there are killers who play like that. It sounds like they don't just stand still on top of the slug, but rather perform the hardcore slugging strategy, and last time I saw a hardcore slugger was back in 2024 I believe. I mean, there is no longer even the old Deerstalker perk to do so, so it's even less effective now. Though I believe it is indeed a very bad choice of a strategy, I can see it playing out well considering that it's similar to facing a specific killer once a year: you never play vs them ever so you either forget or never learn how to counter them, though I would suggest trying out WGLF or Tenacity considering how often you face such playstyle
For survivor's reward via looping, yeah, they honestly should've added a +1000 obj score "Well Run" for a generator repair whenever you are in chase a long time ago. With current bp economy in shambles, extra 1000 for something like that wouldn't matter much. Ofc you could lose those +1000 if chase broke or get them for free if chase just started and a gen pops, but hey, it's better than nothing
As for both sides getting nerfs, for sure, yes, but I mostly meant that in killer context because killers don't have a lot of common general strategies, majority of them revolve around hooks or kills, after all, that's the goal of killers, to kill as many as they can. Sure some specific builds exist on specific killers, but they aren't good on all of them, after all some killers excel where others struggle. And whenever one general strategy was getting nerfed, that naturally meant that others would become better and would appear more often, even if they stayed the same. As of right now, I would say that there are only 8 general killer strategies: 3 gen defence, slugging, camping, tunneling, spreading hooks, hit and run, totemic, and a mix of all prior except totemic (totemic is a bit of a stretch but eh, many killers can utilise a build with them). Majority of them got worse, some for valid reasons, some I believe for bad reasons. In the end, after the many nerfs, the most effective one became tunneling, the least nerfed imo, so that's a given
P.S. Sorry I don't refer to your words like you do for better clarity, unfamiliar with how to use Element Toolbar yet -
@maybesarahhh said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049463#Comment_4049463
The anti-camp system, which is pretty flawed, is somewhat covered due to timer of the hooked survivor, this timer, is far bigger for the downed survivor, so the flaws of anti camp system will be much more dominant in slugging case.
Wow, this was a difficult sentence to read but let me try to break it down. You're saying that the anti-camp is affected by the hook timer? It isn't. Anti-camp is purely based on how long the killer is in proximity. If you're trying to make the argument that the anti-camp timer is similar to the time to reach second state, sure, I guess? I'm still not sure what you are implying with how this will affect the slug situation. In a purely hypothetical situation, if they were to implement this, I would imagine the anti-camp would be the same length for the slugged survivor as it is for hooked. This makes sense because when you reach the end of a slug timer, you die, not move to another hook stage. Additionally, the slugged survivor has to be fully recovered before they can pick themselves up. If I totally understood you wrong please feel free to elaborate.
As for my argument being pointless, you seem to ignore that perks will very much enable the abuse, especially perks like Background Player.
I understand how background player can be frustrating to face as killer, but I still don't think that's a valid argument for not adding an anti-camp timer to slugs. If you are saying perks like this are a reason a killer doesn't want to pick someone up, sure that is true, but it isn't a reason to stand there and refuse to let that survivor participate in normal gameplay for the rest of the match. You chase away nearby survivors and pick up, or you leave them there. If you aren't camping, they wouldn't be able to pick themselves up (unless they have a perk to do so), so another person would have to come get them, meaning you have one in chase and two off of a gen to get this heal figured out, leaving only one to be working on a generator. That's a wonderful situation for the killer to be in, the survivors can't put on any pressure at all.
As for point 2-3, it's naive to believe that delaying info will do anything at all to hard tunneling
…
if people wanna camp, they now stand at a distance and immediately go in once they see another survivor going for a save, resulting in the system being more of a cosmetic one. Absolutely same thing will happen here, the killer who wants to tunnel 1 survivor out will simply be in a position where they can tell that the survivor got unhooked
If a killer wants to hard tunnel, you are correct that they are going to keep going after that person. These small changes would just make that a more difficult task. I would love to see other things, but I saw how easily they can be misused in the wrong hands. This, on the other hand, isn't really an exploitable mechanic. There are a lot of ways to sneak by the killer and avoid line of sight (especially if they are just standing in one spot staring), so this would reward survivors for being sneaky. Not saying it would resolve every case of tunneling ever, but it would help with a good chunk of them at least. If you have a better suggestion I'm all ears.
So in the end, this hurts more those killer players that want to use the unhook notification as information, after all delayed info is far less valuable
The information is only delayed for a few seconds according to my suggestion. If the killer isn't trying to tunnel, why would they need to know the precise time someone was let off hook? Not to mention, they would still know, as the amount of time before the HUD changes would be set so they could go "oh Nea got off the hook 4 seconds ago" and do with that information as they will. I agree that it is valuable information for the killer to receive, just maybe not that it needs to be instantaneous.
I just want to make it clear that I'm not trying to argue whether or not anti slug/tunnel should exist here. BHVR already thinks it should or else they wouldn't have tested these changes out twice in PTBs and would not have spent an entire year saying they were working on it. With this in mind, what I have suggested in the original post is the healthiest way I can imagine any changes being made. If you have something better to suggest I would love to hear it, but "they shouldn't change anything to fix this" isn't a good enough answer for me here, considering they spent all of last year trying to address it.
Thank you for providing your thoughts and feedback on my suggestion, it was nice to actually hear a written concern rather than the previous comments that only claim the PTB proves this won't work. Like, the PTBs were much more intense and had way more going on than what I've suggested in this post. I do genuinely like to hear what killer mains are thinking, though, so we can discuss and either come to an agreement or try to meet at a middle ground somewhere. Its frustrating trying to have these discussions when all anyone wants to do is be rude for no reason.
I have edited my previous message to make it clearer, it was indeed messy in the anti-camp timer part. As you could probably tell, I am not a big fan of how anti camp system works in dbd, since I find it to be mostly a cosmetic system which invades into killer's freedom more than it should and isn't nearly as detailed as it should be, while not really doing anything regarding camping really (To be quite honest I don't think it should I never found camping to be a big issue excluding cases with one shot killers or specific ones which can deny the hook entirely, like Doctor). It's partially why I don't agree with similar suggestion of copypasting the system for slugging as well
As for your example which cases to cover with anti-slug timer, I am genuinely confused, do killers in your games actually just stand on top of a slug and don't do anything? This style of gameplay is pretty much a game throw, no? I honestly haven't seen anyone play like that pretty much ever.
Regarding the hard tunneling, well, it's a hard issue to find solution for, as I said before, preferably I would want spreading hooks to be rewarded, so it is an actual choice between tunneling, which benefits you greatly, and not tunneling, which doesn't benefit you at all. Whenever I play killer I prefer to go with spreading hooks, and let me tell you, the game more often than not punishes me for doing so with quick gens, to be fair, I do run little slowdowns and I am no professional, but still.
There is actually a long history of all the killer strategies getting nerfed to such oblivion that they either barely work or don't really work at all. Slugging, camping, hit and run, 3 gen (Thank got this one was removed though), all those strategies were nerfed quite severely to the point that they became far less effective, but guess which strategy was barely touched? That's right, it's the tunneling. Not saying they should nerf tunneling in it's entirety though, only the hard one. Preferably also make other strategies, except for 3 gen, more viable again.
And personally, what I would do for anti tunnel system? Hmmmm, well, I did have an idea of first 3 unhooks getting different kind of protection, one where you get only 5 seconds of endurance (10 if basement) which cannot be modified with perks in any way, but something like 20-30 seconds of 15% Haste. Short duration of endurance so that you do not go straight with bodyblocking, and prioritize getting the heck away, and lengthy haste so that chasing you is still an option, but with a heavy price. The rest of the unhooks get current 15 seconds of each. And honestly should be shortened in egc it is so dumb how I just shift w into exit games in egc and killer can only watch me -
@maybesarahhh said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049277#Comment_4049277
Your argument for point 1 makes zero sense. Anticamp timer pauses when another survivor is nearby. Not sure how many hours you have in this game to not know how that mechanic works whatsoever.... Maybe you were just ignorant IDK.
For points 2 and 3: why is the killer being rewarded with information from an event that can be done stealthily? I'm not saying erase the HUD for unhooks on killer side (as we saw in the first ptb). i'm saying there should be a small delay so survivors can move away from the area before the killer is alerted. This isn't taking away the information, it is simply adjusting the timing in which it is shared. This would counter the hard tunneling that you are complaining about by giving the injured survivor a moment to go somewhere else and avoid another chase/recover.
As for personally not experiencing slugs, good for you? I personally see it in about 1/3 of my matches, so it feels like a problem to me.
Ah, see, this is where you missed why point 1 is abusable. Like bhvr in some cases, you didn't cover all possible scenarios when you were thinking about the situations which might arise. The anti-camp system, which is pretty flawed, is somewhat covered due to timer of the hooked survivor being only 70 seconds per stage, this timer, if implemented for slugs, would be far bigger for the downed survivor due to no stage therefore no rush, so the flaws of anti camp system will be much more dominant in slugging cases. As for my argument being pointless, you seem to ignore that perks will very much enable the abuse, especially perks like Background Player. Not saying it's gonna happen often, it's not like dbd is filled to the brim with bully squads like it used to, but it can still very much happen
As for point 2-3, it's naive to believe that delaying info will do anything at all to hard tunneling, I mean, let's take a look at the flaw of the camping system: if people wanna camp, they now stand at a distance and immediately go in once they see another survivor going for a save, resulting in the system being more of a cosmetic one. Absolutely same thing will happen here, the killer who wants to tunnel 1 survivor out will simply be in a position where they can tell that the survivor got unhooked. So in the end, this hurts more those killer players that want to use the unhook notification as information, after all delayed info is far less valuable -
@maybesarahhh said:
Here are a few simple suggestions for anti slug/tunnel that wouldnt break any current form of gameplay and shouldn't be able to be abused.
- Put a camp meter on slugs. Works the same way as the hook radius, if the killer slugs they can't just sit on top of the body, allowing for someone to actually be rescued. This prevents killers from hanging out next to someone they slugged to bleed them out when they have zero hooks. This could also be disabled in endgame, similar to hook timers.
- Remove the loud noise notification on unhook. This loud noise pretty much begs the killer to come back and tunnel the unhooked survivor.
- Add a small delay to the HUD on killer side for interactions like unhooking and healing from the downed state. This rewards survivors who are stealthy/able to get past the killer undetected to unhook/pick up a teammate when the killer is proxy camping. It would give them time (5 or 10 seconds would be plenty) to move away from the location before the killer sees they are gone on the HUD.
Most of us aren't asking for free pick ups or extreme changes, as we saw the way they could be abused in the PTBs. These are just some small QOL changes that would help prevent tunneling/slugging that I can't see a way could be misused.
Well, these are not as polished as you believe they are, especially point 1, you missed a rather important issue with it. But let's take it one at a time
For point 1, it is very much abusable in the hands of swf or coordinated players. You should take into account, that killers don't always have safe conditions to pick up a survivor. What if a survivor was downed right under a pallet, and another one is nearby ready to save, and you are not a nurse who can just ignore that? Well, the killer ends up in a lose-lose-lose scenario. Their choice ends up as follows:
1) Pick up the survivor, most likely outcome: survivor is saved via pallet stun, or even flashlight save.
2) Do a back and forth with the other survivor, most likely outcome: The bar fills up, survivor picks themselves up, meanwhile 2 gens are being repaired, 0 pressure gained
3) Leave the slug, commit to the other survivor, forces 1 survivor to actually come and save, but you will be now too far to punish that or use that to make more pressure
No matter what killer does, they end up in a disadvantage. If the player feels like their choice doesn't matter, aka feel powerless, this leads to easy frustration with the game, I would advise to think of ways which do not punish one of the sides severely like that.
As for points 2 and 3, they are kind of similar so I guess I can cover them both. It wasn't great on ptb that killer gets robbed of a pretty crucial information which they might use not for camping/tunneling, but to have the general idea of survivor's whereabouts and, if they have a clear line of sight even if far away, their possible location if they move away from hook right away.
As my general opinion on the matter of slugging/tunneling, I barely ever face slugging as legit strategy so I don't understand the general frustration with it, therefore can't really say much. Tunneling however is something I face quite often, and find only the hard tunneling to be problematic, especially when done by already S tier killers. The solution however to hard tunneling I feel doesn't lie in the nerfing of the tunneling, but in encouraging spreading hooks, because as of right now, you actually do not gain any advantage from spreading hooks, except for perks, but those benefit you after tunneling as well.If we go with encouraging spreading hooks, then it must be something really tempting for killers to do, otherwise it will never beat the benefit of hard tunnel. And it's a great benefit indeed, we all know the regular situation of 1 hooked, 1 chased, 1 saving and 1 repairing. If you remove 1 survivor, the 1 repairing suddenly vanishes from the equation. That's why I would think more into encouraging hook spread instead
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@Dinadin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048820#Comment_4048820
How about not faking math for your sake?
"Why can a killer secure a kill (Not always can, unless he has oneshot ability or fast damaging killer like huntress, which is entirely different argument to discuss), but survivor on hook is not supposed to still be saved (Very much still can, unless oneshot or fast damaging killer like huntress)"
I didn't really get what you meant by faking math, but I am not sure why you think 1 survivor dying at the very end of the game is something that must be always preventable when it's 4 total survivors -
@Dinadin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048723#Comment_4048723
So why is the killer supposed to be able to secure their kill, but the survivor on hook isnt supposed to be able to still be saved? Double standards.
"why is the killer supposed to be able to secure 25% of their victory but the survivor on hook isn't supposed to be able to secure 100% of theirs" It's assym game it can't be absolutely equal everywhere
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@TaMeiRen said:
Again, not sure if this was removed a long time ago, but if the killer only has a 1 or potential 2k, then too bad. Standing directly in front of the hooked person in the endgame is weird and kind of annoying.
Open to polite discussion
This was never a thing so no, it wasn't removed. And tbh while killers have gens to protect which prevent survivors from leaving via gates, it makes sense for them to leave the hook to delay gen progress, but once gens are done, then there is nothing preventing survivors leaving except killer themselves, but that only applies to 1 survivor instead of all 4.
I know it usually feels bad for that 1 particular survivor who ends up downed in end game, but it's still not the end for them, many killers are incapable of one shotting survivors, so a skillful hit trade into save can still be performed by survivors if at least 2 more remain, adding anti camp to endgame will remove that very interesting aspect of the game.The other issue I see in this, is that this very question stems from a belief which I find harmful: Why do you think that the survivor that got downed in end game, and by extend every still living survivor together with them, absolutely MUST be able to escape still? Sometimes if you get caught you die on the hook, that's normal, there nothing wrong with killer securing the only kill they can at such stage
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@TaMeiRen said:
I don’t know if they’ve had this before, but why don’t totems keep their cleansing progression?
I just watched a streamer get THREE CROWS trying to cleanse a Thrill of the Hunt AND Face the Darkness THREE TIMES because the cleansing restarted every time.Simple, when they first introduced totems, they kept the cleanse progress, this resulted in a very obvious outcome: hex totems were useless because you couldn't even protect them, their demise was eventual and impossible to prevent.
As for the streamer example, cleansing a TOTH while affected by face the darkness 3 times and never understanding why this wasn't a good idea is entirely on the streamer -
@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4045598#Comment_4045598
One of the unwritten rules of this game is when you make a build to counter something, it never happens.
I get slugged 5 games in a row, bring anti-slug, get tunneled.
Get tunneled, bring anti-tunnel, killer spreads pressure
Bring gen repairs/healing, get slugged
Rinse and repeat. Not complaining btw, it's kinda hilarious.This is so true it hurts honestly. I know I sound like tinfoil hat member, but I can never forget how iron wills suddenly start popping the second I switch to playing Spirit, or how Urban Evasion appears after tens and hundred of matches without it when I suddenly play Hag XD
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Man, where are all these slugging killers at, as a gamer with Tenacity addiction I strive to play vs slugging killers and they are never there
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@Artimenius1307 said:
The perk has 2 counters to reduce it's effectiveness, either let go of the generator before a survivor is hooked on pain res, then continue repairing it, optional choice if you think you can manage finishing it before killer comes. Or the other counter, move in advance to a 0% generator in order to tap it to waste the switch entirely
@Dinadin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044337#Comment_4044337
How is it the same counter? Tell me.
It is quite literally still same way of countering dms even with Vecna's new perk to explode gens at a distance. And to be fair, if the killer ends up in the 20m radius of the perk, the dms is likely gonna proc on that gen regardless (Unless ofc it is wasted on a 0% gen, idk why people don't counter dms like that I do and it is a waste of a slot perk with such counter) because the killer themselves is present to deny generator repair
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The perk has 2 counters to reduce it's effectiveness, either let go of the generator before a survivor is hooked on pain res, then continue repairing it, optional choice if you think you can manage finishing it before killer comes. Or the other counter, move in advance to a 0% generator in order to tap it to waste the switch entirely
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Yes you are correct that some swf play it for funsies, and yes you are correct that some swf do not perform well, and yes you can absolutely lose vs 4 solos who are just good at the game. Saying that majority of swfs are playing only for funsies, and as high as 99%, is just blatantly lying and doesn't help your point.
The bigger picture however, is that power outliers like non-casual swf and top tier killers, for some reason do not get addressed, and with time (thanks to mmr system) it created a rather big bubble when bhvr started to bring everything closer to the level of power outliers, which is far less healthy for the game than simply reducing what's strongest. As a result we have killer like clown who got a rework and can absolutely stomp pubs, yet still struggle vs coordinated teams.
You can't and absolutely shouldn't balance around those best at the game, that's never been a good idea in literally every game ever. Yet, those killer/survivor changes are absolutely revolving around best levels of gameplay, all the reworks overbuffing killer into oblivion, all the changes they made this year for survivors which giga buffed swf, those are exactly what balancing around best is. Both highest tier killers and highest tier survivor players are shackling this game, it has always been like that, however this issue greatly escalated with the mmr system. Which is quite an issue on itself too, can you tell me how many middle ground games have you had recently? Me personally, it's either 4 good players, or 4 absolute newbies struggling to survive. Either way, there is no fun in such games, since they end up too one-sided -
Tbh this should be a really high priority, I don't know if it's my rotten luck or there is a discount for cheats but I have got 5 blatant cheaters an a span of a week, they really seem to be producing via spores right now. Heck, I am writing this as I am held hostage by 5th right now XD
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@Raptorrotas said:
It might be ancient knowledge by now, but didnt the devs explicitly state they will not balance survivor differently for solo or swf?
For the devs there isnt solo or swf, but only survivor. Technically theyre already the same too, since comms are 100% third party tools.
You'd rather start balancing survivor around good players like people demand for killers.
If that's really their design philosophy regarding survivors, then there is sadly no real hope then, it's same like saying trapper and blight are same thing since they are both killers. But oh well, nothing we can do about it.
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@random1543 said:
You cant nerf SWF, unless dbd can make a deal with discord to make it not work when they are playing dbd.
You have to bring the power of Soloq up too what SWF levels of comms are.
but if these changes did come to the game, can soloq survivors get the same treatment if a top tier killers are just sweating with the best perks? limit them to one perk if they are versing soloq :DThere is no way to bring power of solo q to even close level of swf, without it directly buffing swf as well. Best example, pallet density before it did a 180 in current patch: It was a huge buff to solo q, bringing it closer to swf level before the patch, but at the same time, it also sky rocketed power of sfw to such height that it was honestly laughable. And quite frankly, not a lot can be done that will increase power only in solo/duo que without it affecting swf
One thing that they can certainly add, is something similar to what exists in Carnival Hunt, a system of specific pings which tell the entire lobby what you are up to. This will definitely make communication clearer for solo q teammates, HUD does that somewhat well though I am afraid some people are blissfully unaware of it -
@Lavoonus said:
I don't think SWF specific nerfs are really the way to go, mainly due to the fact that SWF penalties need to be balanced around the most competitive (Coordinated squads with synergistic builds) and the most casual (Occasional players that only get on to play together).
However, there was a variant I saw suggested at some point that could work at least a bit better for this: Instead of strict perk limits, have the tier of a perk decreased each time it's stacked in a 3 or 4 man SWF.
So for example, if 2 people in a 4 man have DS, both have their perk become the tier 2 version once they're in the game. If 3 or 4 of them have background player, it becomes tier 1 during the game.
From there you could rebalance perk tiers around that concept. Lower tiers of Deliverance could increase the safe unhooks needed, or tier 1 Sprint Burst could give you a slightly shorter sprint duration.
Do I think it's a good idea to put into the game? ...not wholeheartedly. But it's at least a concept I found interesting to consider.
Oooooh that's a curious idea as well, and less invasive, I can see this one being healthy for the game as well, though a lot more work too, to change the levels of perks
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@CompetitifDBD said:
My only problem with this is restricting players to 1 perk across the whole team. People have a preference for their preferred exhaustion for example, what If I want Lithe and it's taken by the members of a SWF? I understand your motive of wanting certain strategies gone, (like Head On bully squads on certain maps or full flashlight and flashbang SWFs who constantly Die under pallets with Background Player) but what about the people who are running those perks just because they like to and find it suitable to their personal playstyle? That's where things like these need individual changes, like maybe a certain form of save can only occur once every 30 seconds or so (for example, one pallet save for a while, or one flashlight save for awhile)
Certainly this suggestion is raw and can be improved upon, something like a synergy with mmr levels perhaps? Or a limit of 2 for certain perks. Either way there is room for polishing, but I believe it could be done well. Your suggestion is imo too hard to adapt into the game because a lot of individual things would require covering with it
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@AcesSpeedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028374#Comment_4028374
It's quite sad how you check the history and see that it seems this year they seem to have chosen hearing survivors over killers.
i think people forget that they're listening to survivors —now— and making all of these changes because survivor gameplay has been more or less the same since the get-go. killers got spoiled with new powers to play every patch, meanwhile survivors only got a new cosmetic. no new items, no new gameplay mechanics, just the same gameplay loop since the day the game released. they even stated that their reasoning for all of the new qol changes was because they neglected the survivor role over the years. so to claim that they're listening to survivors over killers is ludicrous to me, honestly.
they miss the mark in balancing for sure, but i think it's fairly obvious that they don't favour any sides and want to do what's best for everyone, except they are just god awful at executing whatever plans they put forward. i don't think it's fair to push this narrative, that they're favouring sides, when they're making changes based on what feedback people have given them, but like i said, they just suck at it.
QoL is definitely nice and should be added, as well as something extra for survivors, it's true that the gameplay loop and variety has only been influenced by new perks which isn't really much anymore, though, the changes they made, namely pallet density and anti-tunnel/camp/slugging are neither QoL nor they change survivor gameplay, like at all.
I believe that they should definitely go more experimental with survivors, and start with something small, like new/reworked items. Previous version, Fog Vials, they barely tested it, nerfed it into the ground, reworked keys and maps but those 2 still remain rather useless. I wish they returned to that, especially to fog vials which got killed and then just kinda left dead. Or a rework to how chests work, reason why keys still remain useless outside of hatch is because their chest opening feature is revolved around, well chests, and chests are extremely outdated in current bp economy. Same with maps, they were meh, still meh, just use Windows of Opportunity
Then once they get the simpler stuff they could experiment with more complex stuff, like a whole new mechanic for survivors or an extra objective, though, I am gonna be honest, I no longer have the slightest hope that they will know how to implement that, unless ofc they actually cooperate with at least fog whisperers, ideally with playerbase more so we know in advance what ideas they have -
Okay 9.3.0 released and it's definitely proving Slan's right, somehow devs exceeded my expectations, and made it EVEN WORSE. No bugs fixed, more bugs introduced, pallet density update somehow did a 180 and now it's extremely in killer's favor, no content, no nothing, I am genuinely stunned at how much worse it got. Whoever is responsible for these changes being made, there is simply no sugar coating it, they are terrible at their job, and if nothing changes I am afraid this will truly mark the beginning of the end
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Agree, this should be addressed, though it's hardly the top priority right now. On the other hand, it would be really perfect if they addresses all of these techs (bug exploits), removed problematic ones, made non-problematic ones a feature like they did with Oni 180, this would definitely be an operation health. It doesn't matter how cool or hard these techs are, they are still bug exploits at their core in majority of cases, so if they finally got attention of bhvr that would be great
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028643#Comment_4028643
They don't only listen to survivor mains, we've been getting killer changes for years. We just need more killer changes to make it more forgiving, the same can also be said for survivor rn. Your bias shows, I think both sides really need help where it counts rn. Killer needs more breathing room on gens for when they play without gen regression perks, survivor needs to be more forgiving when hard tunneling and slugging are in play.
The biggest annoying thing they've done recently is release overtuned killers and make killer mains who think that's how they are meant to be get attatched to them, then they get nerfed. That's probably the biggest sin they are committing recently, I don't think Kaneki/Krasue should have ever been buffed going into live.
Then there is going onto all the bugged and ugly unfinished cosmetics they keep releasing and all the bugs that keep amounting up ruining the game for everyone, with no QoL for those in sight either.
I'd rather them try new things and take the game in new directions, or stagnation will happen. This games design road is very comparable to mmos, which after 10+ years like FFXIV are also suffering from stagnation and keeping things simple.
Also killers are barely leaving, the queues for them take an age even with the pallet changes WHICH ARE BEING CHANGED, it has been confirmed. The pallet increase needed to happen on maps like Haddonfield etc.
Like no disrespect, but there is truth to both sides of the coin here and I think if you played more survivor you'd see it.Well, the trap situation they put themselves in is now closed, and now we are in another problematic situation, there is literally barely anything interesting in this 9.3.0 patch, a whole chapter gone to complete waste. It's why I agree with Slan, 9.2.0 and 9.3.0 were a massive waste because the direction the devs are going in is just completely missing the mark. They could spend all this time and effort to solving the issues in another way, but they decided to literally reintroduce 9.2.0 in this 9.3.0 ptb and wow it was still not taken well, who would have thought? Everyone could honestly it's not rocket science
Well, there were a couple of good points to see in the future in the stream, so hopefully we do get better thought out changes later, because in this terms I agree with you, game needs serious changes as well, it's stagnating, and the fact they reverted most of it, while good in my eyes that they did that, is also aiding in game's stagnation, which is also an issue. This ended up a lose-lose scenario for bhvr, they push these changes, there is a big problem, they don't, it's still a big problem
I swear though if they reintroduce these thoughtless changes AGAIN later I will legit die from cringe -
@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028028#Comment_4028028
I mean I can see your reasoning, but we can't know how effective it is until we see it in actual use cases on the live servers.
So many people (not you) parrot content creators who are just the same as them, people who play the game, rather than coming up with opinions they actually feel match their personal experience.
A big change like this needs to happen I feel at least so we can see what works and what doesn't and go from there. I'm glad its causing discussion of what the best course of action is coz we've needed this for a long time.
I agree making not tunneling more enticing would be a good option, but much like you see that as a nerf to killers when the shoe is on the other foot, survivors will see it as one to them. So it doesn't matter what way we go we'll face the same issue.
So the best option is to cater to both I feel, regardless, coz they aren't gonna make everyone happy regardless, so might as well make the majority happy.I would argue we can already see right now how effective it will be, it actually won't be effective at all. I have been playing survivor more because killer is just unfun for whenever matchmaking system dropped years, and from what I could see it's really telling, the biggest problem I had in the games was always one and the same: my teammates giving up almost instantly.
And the issue of people giving up is just not something that will be fixed with these huge buffs, hell, I still see it today with pallet density literally making it nigh impossible to down people quickly, yet they still get downed, and proceed to dc or afk, it's breaking my mind trying to understand what more they needed. And it's not like I play vs Nurses/Blights/Kanekis all the time, people left after being quickly downed by pretty much any killer, last time it was Springtrap I believe
And another case and point of it, I have seen survivors give up on first down, IN 2 V 8. They have an entire deck stacked in their favor there, and they still give up because they got downed first. These people are beyond help, you can make them invincible and they will still find an excuse to give up. You can even see on this forum, bhvr removed legion from current 2 v 8 and what happened in here? Threads of "Well damn Oni too strong please nerf/remove". Catering to players like this, who refuse to improve, or adapt, or learn, is an extremely short-sighted decision, and bhvr is following through on this decision, which can prove fatal.
Another reason it can prove fatal is as follows: Let's pretend they do introduce all these changes as they are, as you suggest. Okay, they enter live, and people start playing around with them. What is most likely gonna happen? Numerous times it was proven that whenever something that can be abused is added to the game, will be abused, it's true for both survivor and killer sides. These changes are highly abusable, can't deny that.
30 seconds of Endurance is really potent for bodyblocking, and in combination with perk changes can be made even stronger.
Anti-camping already had issues of "Bait and switch"? i don't know if this has a name, but basically when survivors bait killer from hook an away and anti-camp meter was filling up to full due to that, though truth be told it was pretty rare. With extra 4 meters it will be easier to do but maybe harder to perform with +50% slower meter. Anti-slug is not really abusable looking but maybe people will find a way
And then comes the biggest problem: Time. These changes go through, they will remain withing the game for a long time, and they will come without pallet density being addressed. And we are in the middle of November, meaning most likely, bhvr will go on holiday break, so we will be stuck with combo of these changes + pallet density for a LONG while. I believe it will be fatally long time for the future of the game -
I agree with these points, this was one of the best mods for me to play, and the most fun I've had in dbd in a very long time, but after newest iteration with barely a change, it is simply no longer that fun
As for survivor side, it became too easy to be interesting, I genuinely can't understand why bhvr thought that only Guide's ability was problematic and reworked it into a new one, when quite frankly all classes had busted abilities, and still do have them with the exception of Guide who ends up the most balanced one, though it has a couple issues too.
The maps are littered with pallets, which I find to be too many even taking 2v8 into account, and let's be real 2 killers is not really an argument for five hundred pallets, if you get chased by 2 killers they won't save you, if anything such a large amount of them discourages killers from going solo, and we all know how fun it is to be 2 man tagged.
And as an extra, the survivors got buffed with keys rework, they can now get an insane amount of items from chests, as long as they find keys which let's be fair is almost a guarantee. The survivor side overall is so loaded that it only has 1 flaw really: the players themselves
On the opposite side of the coin, the killer side could definitely use some love. The classes are not nearly as powerful as they should be, brute could definitely have pallet break as passive instead of it disabling if you give haste to your ally, Enforcer while interesting, is definitely the worst, for a simple factor that Coup aspect of it is impossible to use well, you need to let your ally know if their lunge is increased now, and even then, people simply don't have this muscle memory of how long the lunge is to utilize it. Shadow is definitely one of the strongest classes, but it does come with a downside of people seing in lobby that shadow exists, and therefore can play around it easier. Fearmonger is too specific of a perk to use widely, though I use it on Trapper too, helps with mobility and tells me if survivors see me when I am laying down traps, if Haste disappears
As for the killers themselves, it's the biggest mystery to me on how bhvr decides which buffs to give. We have Wesker, probably the most fun killer in 2v8 for the very simple fact of having 1 extra dash. We then have Slinger who has… 2 buffs, one of which is minimal effect. Now we also have Dracula who, maybe not as strong as in 1v4, but has extra pounce too which enables interesting place. And in the very same group, Pyramid Head, with nothing burger buffs, which makes me thing bhvr kinda forgot that cages are pretty much basekit in this mode so he has 50% of hiw power basically worthless. Nemesis is another example of just, idk, nothing being special about him in 2v8? He is the same, zombies the same, yes he had buffs ofc, but he is exactly the same gameplay wise.
I believe we barely get anything changed in 2v8 because well people play it anyway so bhvr already entered their comfort zone, and that a lot of effort and time was spent on 9.2.0 and 9.3.0 update, so we ended up with barely any changes to events and modes, which is sad, because they are quite enjoyable -
@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4027932#Comment_4027932
It's not adding nothing to the other side, they do have fresh hook incentives we just need more, and they said they'd add more if it's needed, not to mention Syringes and styptics have been reworked too and that's a HUGE deal for killer players.
Like I totally get your concern but to say they are doing nothing is just not true, we just need to keep giving constructive feedback, they do listen, it's just with two very different sides they aren't going to implement everything one side wants.
The casual experience needs a lot of work in this game, for both sides and the QoL is trying to address that.
And it's okay about the quote you have nothing to apologise for, the forums are just wierd.It would be true if they added the rewards for unique hooks from 9.2.0 into this ptb, but all they added is +750 bp and bloodlust for 15s or until you use your power, one has 0 impact on ongoing match, the other being mostly a nothing burger except for interaction with Beast of Prey. So in the end, they added nothing to killer side because really, what else they got from this? From anti-camp? Nothing. From anti-slug? Nothing. From anti-tunnel? These 2 things above.
It's my other big gripe with how bhvr handles this whole thing. There are 3 main ways they could go about it. Either A, nerf the existing killer strategies, the one they chose to go with, and probably the worst one. Option B, to buff other strategies to make them more tempting to use, I believe this would be the best choice. Or Option C, to to nerf both existing killer strategies and survivor's strongest stuff at the same time. I take it back, this is probably the worst option, it's too hard to do right away, and too complex of an issue.
And on the other side, they nerf 3 of killer strategies, what is going to be available for use? There aren't that many of them to begin with, and playing fairly is not a strategy, you don't benefit from it directly. What's there at all, Camping, Tunneling, Slugging, 3 Genning, Endgame, Hit and Run, Totemic, and I guess Macro control? The only widely available are the first 4, others are either too niche or work only on some killers. So by nerfing first 3, we might just end up with no strategies being good as killer, which completely destroys the agenda of letting players make their own choices -
@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4027926#Comment_4027926
I strongly disagree with your first line, they have been trying to cater to both hense how the previous version of the anti-tunnel was walked back.
The issue with this community more than anything else on BOTH sides is the us vs them mentality, there is glaring issues on survivor side and there is glaring issues on killer side.
We shouldn't be getting upset one side is getting QoL, coz Killer will get some in due time, Otherwise we end up in this cycle where nothing changes coz we are scaring BHVR into doing NOTHING.
Let the Anti-Tunnel come out, let them refine it, much like the pallet update they are going to refine it. Nothing especially in this game is perfect when it first comes out.
I honestly feel this game really needs to buff the lower tier killers to A rank and bring the S-tier hyper mobility down to Wesker's level.
The PTB is an awful testing environment, everything which has come from it has flopped, it will need to go onto the live servers to get actual real feedback for further refinement.
Change needs to happen, and it will happen if we let it, it has to start somewhere, they've even said they'll change killers if the Anti-Tunnel is too effective.Ah forgot to quote sorry
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No, this is simply bad balance design philosophy to introduce significant changes to one side while adding nothing to the other, it simply won't work in assymetrical game
If you slam such serious changes, it will simply mean that other side will be far better to play as, while the other side will become far more terrible. And what follows? That's right, lobby simulator time
And quite frankly, it's naive to say that they will buff killers in return after pallet density and the stream. How many months passed since pallet density? It's soon to be 2 months, and they only started colelcting feedback for it now, meaning the pallets will stay for more time, enough time for people to leave, switch sides increasing lobby time, or abandon the game entirely. And yet, not even a whisper of doing something for killers in return
I know I sound kind of doom posting, but that's just what we have in the game right now -
Agree with pretty much everything, it was going rather well up until after Springtrap dlc. The dlc had a few issues too but nothing serious, and most of it got reverted too. But after the dlc? It honestly feels like the entire balancing crew got fired and completely new people were hired, because things got bad REALLY quick.
The entire walking dead chapter was a buggy mess on par with Twins release, some bugs still existing to this day never addressed, never fixed, but at least still it was mostly just bugs, though the patch itself was weird it wasn't that weird
But then, the absolute banger drops, the 9.2.0 with changes that basically cancel out years of what bhvr was doing prior to that, anti-everything changes that lack any attention to the finer detail of the game, a random Myers rework, a killer with a really bland design, sure she was and is strong, but her gameplay loop is extremely boring, and the cherry on top, pallet density "QoL" change. (I wonder if they removed a whole hook stage from survivors would they call it quality of life?)
Some of 9.2.0 were reverted, but now we have 9.3.0, and it looks like uuuuh nothing was learned, somehow it became even worse, that community stream was really eye opening in terms of just how bad devs understanding of the game is. I completely agree, getting hardcore tunneled (The only problematic type of tunneling imo, 3 hooks=death one) by S or A tier killers sure feels terrible, but these changes are bloated out of proportion tremendously.
And honestly, they can't even claim that they do this to make game easier for casual players. Yes, these changes make life easier for casual survivors, while also insanely buffing swf. But why oh why there is NOTHING for casual killer players? Are they not also part of the playerbase? Are they not deserving or buffs to killer? Because right now, casual killer players got shot in the knee with pallet density update, and they will be shot in another knee with these changes.
Do you want to know the really important issues with the game right now bhvr? It's easy to tell you which ones they are, it's an absurd amount of game changing bugs, like Slinger having no animations, or Greenville having smoke bug if you enter corner, or Blight being bugged for so long that players accept it is as feature now.
It's the incredibly powerful potential of full squads swfs, shackling the design freedom of survivor items/perks/addons, because you have to always design around possibly 4 people using it, because for some reason you still haven't introduced something like a limit per person which only applies to a full squad swf
It's the overtuned S tier killers which dictate game balance and map designs for years, I don't understand why you never address Blight bugs that make him stronger, it's super simple too, either remove/fix them, or make it a feature available to everyone, like you did with Oni flick
It's the terrible disconnect epidemic, people are leaving or giving up for the tiniest issues, which greatly affects enjoyment of the game for others. You probably need to consider harsher dc penalties, BUT at the same time prevent it from applying if people are forcefully disconnected by hackers
It's your current changes lacking any thought in the deeper layer of the game. Why are slugging changes not taking into account Twins and Oni? Why are camping changes not taking into account multi floor maps? Why are you nerfing perks or addons based purely on statistics, like Unknown's Vanishing Box?
It's complete lack of any effort for events/modes. You readd them almost entirely the same, of course nobody is asking for a whole overhaul , but simply something new, and something new not being meaningless. I honestly liked the new autogen repair aspect of crystals from halloween. The 2v8 is barely changing, while being extremely survivor sided, and extremely boring for some killers (Compare Deathslinger with 2 buffs vs Wesker with incredibly fun 3 dashes)
I was in a toxic relationship with this game since 2017, but I will not lie, I was loving it more up until Springtrap dlc, it was really going in a nice direction, and you fumbled it, fumbled it really hard, and you keep at it, extremely saddening to see -
Personal idea I had for Still Sight, is that activation time is lowered to 3 seconds on tier 3, but the deactivation time is also 3 seconds. Meaning, stand still → perk activates, auras are shown → once you start moving the perk begins to deactivate within next 3 seconds → during those 3 seconds the auras are still revealed to you. Kind of a lingering effect only usable for a short amount of time, to give Still Sight a minor power in terms of mindgames, since standing still during chase for 4 seconds is unreal scenario. Tbf, standing still for 3 seconds also sounds unreal though
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919480#Comment_3919480
30 seconds is just in case you wanted to use it more often. Yes 60% sounds crazy, but you're never getting 60%. I think you're expecting this to get tokens way faster than it's realistically going to. As soon as they see you use this perk they are also going to stop doing greats.
This depends on whether or not the token system remains the same. If it does, 1 great skill check = 3 tokens, so you only need 10 great skill checks from 3 survivors (assuming 1 of them will be in a constant state of being chased) is not impossible to get in about 2-3 minutes, especially on higher level of play. But if it gets nerfed to something like 1 skill check = 1 token or 2 tokens then yeah, you can greed it but it will take quite a lot of time
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The cooldown is not really a problem for the perk since you do still gain stacks while it's in cooldown, and it is unlikely to hit max even if the perk worked with great skill checks in just 1 minute, though I will agree 30 seconds would be much better just in case survivors really hit them well. As for regression, possibly could be increased but I would rather first see the perk in any form of action at all before further adjustments, plus possible 60% of total regression sounds kind of busted to be honest
Additionally, the perk will become somewhat of an info perk as well, since if let's say you gain tokens when only 2 survivors left you do get an idea of their possible whereabouts