maybesarahhh
maybesarahhh
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@Zakon05 said:
My main concern currently is Borrowed Time. I feel like making it mend you passively is worse than its current effect. Just don't have it extend the Elusive buff, the 10 extra seconds of Haste was really good for an altruistic anti-tunnel perk.
You can inadvertently mess up your ally's build if they're using Made For This, for example. Such a player would likely prefer to stay Deep Wounds if hit off hook. The only time this effect will really be useful is if the unhooked person is running Dead Hard.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117472#Comment_4117472
Couldn't they use the new This Is Not Happening to help with this?
i think you might misunderstand because borrowed time is now an effect for yourself if you get hit into deep wound while having endurance rather than being a perk to help your teammate out
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@Crowman said:
Seeing that we're modifying perks like Agitation and Iron Grasp to have better T1/T2 stats, why not just get rid of perk tiers? If the difference between tiers is going to be minor and we're going to keep getting new perks every few months added to the pool, it would be a lot better for the playerbase as a whole if we just didn't have perk tiers anymore.
i agree with this but think it would be a nightmare to rework the entire prestige system to accommodate this change so it will probably never happen lol
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@Mortimer said:
There’s absolutely no need to kill ‘WoO’ – a beginner-friendly perk that’s particularly useful for solo queue. The perk is purely for information purposes and doesn’t grant any additional effects.
This new version makes no sense at all, and I expect it to be reverted because it’s disgraceful as it is now.i was expecting a change with either windows or 5 moves ahead because they kinda did the same thing previously. while i'm not a huge fan of the change, i think it is understandable. i just wish they would have given a better buff to balance the nerf of taking away pallet vision. i think something like blocking the window for the killer for a few seconds could be an interesting addition to the perk to make it a bit more valuable with the update
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@Abbylynn16 said:
I am disappointed in the change to Stake Out. Specifically changing the skill check from "Great Skill Check" to "special" and intentionally nerfing the interaction / synergies with other skill check perks.
While I understand the purpose was likely to nerf players running crazy gen rush builds. I was using its synergy with Corrective Action as as a way to compensate when playing with a my spouse or friends with disabilities who struggle with Skill Checks. So much so that due to this hurdle the anxiety of Skill Checks made the game unplayable for them : ( I purchased Detective Tapp specifically to accomplish this and was happily willing to "sacrifice" half my perk slots to effectively do the skill checks for them if it enabled their to enjoy the game with me.
I know this is probably a specific situation that no one cares about but wanted to share feedback as something to consider.
Thanksi'm sad about the change too, but i understand why it had to happen. i think the interaction with hyperfocus was making it difficult to control the speed at which generators are able to be completed. :/
maybe try running this is not happening instead? they updated it so you no longer have to be injured and both the great and good zones of the skillcheck increased in size. might be a good perk for your friends to run this one too since it makes skillcheck zones 2x bigger than normal
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@nikodemo said:
Monstrous Shrine: Please ensure the perk visually indicates when I'm within and outside the 24m radius. I have no idea how to judge that distance otherwise.
Thank you!
I kind of think the point of not knowing is to prevent you from proxy camping just outside of that range. The perk is meant to encourage leaving the hook area entirely. -
@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113067#Comment_4113067
It goes away the second you're unhooked but while you're hooked it's there.
I think maybe it needs tweaked, there isn't enough time between the alert that someone got unhooked and moving to dodge it (even if you are holding sprint and instantly dodge 90 degrees to the direction its coming from)
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Just want to add that a lot of these are starting from across the map, then holding the beam near the hook and waiting. I don't know if that's a way they are bypassing the anticamp mechanic or what? Or maybe I'm missing something strategy-wise here. I've tried waiting for them to release then go for the unhook, but they are always able to spawn another one before I'm able to finish the animation/evacuate the area.
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@Xendritch said:
But there is? You can't fire near a hook and the beam stops at the hook when someone is hooked so you can't actually hit it.
Either this is not true or its bugged, as I've been getting hit during the unhooking animation/less than 1s after in most of my trials…
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Glad to see that a fix is being worked on @ThatRyanB! <3
I tend to mix and match my outfits instead of wearing what "goes together" but not being able to rotate is making it difficult for me to tell if my fits are cohesive :(
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i wish the devs would go back and show this map the love it deserves. it has always felt like a rushed, unoriginal map to me. hell, the only reason i knew it was the walking dead map on release was because the of door inside main.
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as a survivor main, i absolutely LOVE this idea (along with tweaks and adjustments mention
ed in comments from @Anti051 and @AlwaysInAGoodShape). i think this would bridge that awkwardly large gap between dash killers and m1/slow killers and encourage players to actually play other characters. it would be so refreshing to queue into dbd for the night and not know what killers i'll be seeing. -
i like this idea a lot, it would make getting mori'd more fun.
as a survivor main, I would be incredibly jealous that I don't also have different equippable emotes, though LOL. i understand people worry about them being used in a toxic way, though. maybe some kind of emote to do during the animation as the survivor exits the trial would be less worrisome though?
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i'm a survivor main and wesker was NOWHERE near my list of killers that need something addressed for balancing….. in fact, wesker was one of the few that i actually thought was decently balanced, so i'm surprised to see any changes to his kit.
i'm sorry, wesker mains. yall didn't deserve this </3
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As a survivor main, I played multiple rounds in the map showcase without seeing my killer for nearly the entire trial. This is INSANE. I could have understood a couple games due to people still learning the map, but it shouldn't be so complicated to navigate that survivors never accidentally run into the killer or get found for an entire trial while not even trying to hide. I'm honestly not sure how we could address this, maybe it will resolve itself as people learn the map or maybe we need to sneak in a few more doorways to access different areas more easily.
I have also noticed that pallets are…. hit and miss on this map. Either the pallet is an extremely strong god pallet, or its absolute trash that you will get injured at every single time (so bad it isn't even a 50/50 at that point lol). There aren't really any middle of the ground loops or 50/50 setups on this map it seems. I think strengthening a couple of these really bad pallet spawns into something decent (or at least something we can go for a 50/50 on), while possibly removing some of the god pallet spawns from rotation would help balance this out.
The totem spawns are interesting. Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of them are right out in the open. This is odd to me, considering this is pretty much an indoor map. There have to be better corners/parts of the map that disguise them a bit more, I don't understand why we are placing them where they will be instantly spotted. I will say there are a handful of really good totem spawns on this map, I just wish we would remove some of the obviously bad ones from the rotation. I'm a hex/boon lover, so I like when you guys give us sneakier totem options lol.
Visually, this map is 11/10 for me. The lighting and setting look amazing and I love seeing something that is entirely new to DBD. Your artists did a fantastic job with making this map look awesome. My ONLY concern is that there seem to be flickering/flashing lights in a lot of locations on this map. It might be wise to look into an accessibility option to disable the flickering on the lights, as there are some gamers out there who are at a higher risk of a seizure from this lighting (while you're at it, a flash to black option for players getting blinded would be a welcome accessibility setting too).
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i thought i was tripping last night when none of the classrooms on one side of midwich had a pallet in them. i was seriously scouring the ground for pallet remains thinking my randoms somehow used all 4 of them really fast, but seeing this makes me realize they probably never spawned….
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@Classic_Rando said:
Scouts are helpful, but in my experience the main reason for losses on the survivor side is very simple: teammates who are just very bad at the game. People are constantly getting downed like 5 seconds after chase starts. There are pallets galore in 2v8 and there is simply no reason for people to get downed that quickly unless they’re getting double-teamed. Even if you don’t have the Escapist class to see all the pallets, they are literally every few meters on most maps. I also lose my mind every time I see someone doing totems, which happens quite often. Totems should either be removed from 2v8 or actually make them help the team somehow if they are cleansed.
i agree that a lot of people are just really bad... 2v8 has no MMR iirc, so it's even more unbalanced than the regular gamemode (which they can't seem to figure out either). i've noticed most of my matches go one of three ways: a) the killers work well together and absolutely demolish the entire lobby quickly, b) the gens FLY and everyone escapes with like 3-4 hook states for the entire team somehow, or c) the bystander effect screws everyone over because no survivors are going for unhooks. a bunch of people hit 2nd state/die on hook and the game is lost when it otherwise likely could have been a more even match…. there is literally zero variety for me from these 3 results lol. with the struggles to get MMR to work correctly in even 1v4, doubling the number of players only heightens the noticeable imbalances in matchmaking. :/
i also have a confession….. i do the totems sometimes when all the gens pop super fast (or if i'm last man standing and hatches are closed)…. but i feel like due to it being situational its fine, right? don't hate me LOL, i'm just trying to farm some BPs with the huge bonus on the game mode
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@Shinkiro nobody is "making" killers play to get a small buff. this in no way nerfs anything lol. if you don't care about the little gen block, then keep playing the game as you are currently. OP did not suggest anything that would affect that style of gameplay, simply gave a suggestion that would make not tunneling a more viable option for some killers (not everyone).
@Pasi i like your original idea, i think its a nice way to reward killers for not tunneling rather than punishing other killers who do tunnel. gives an incentive to play differently, but doesn't force anyone to use it. i also like the idea of gens always getting blocked (as a survivor main btw) because i have seen people be left on hook to go second stage far more often than should ever happen. if nobody could work on a gen, it seems like this is less likely to happen. like maybe it would encourage some players to go for unhook that normally wouldn't?
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I wish DBD would just give us some volume sliders for things tbh…. It would be nice to be able to balance terror radius vs. generator sounds vs. everything else on the map. I do understand this could create some weird situations though, so they'd have to be careful how they implement it. (For example, killers could mute ambient map sounds so they can hear survivors better, etc.) I think giving us some customizability with our sounds would be helpful for a lot of players.
For me personally, I'd love to be able to make doctor quieter. I understand the mind games with how loud he is are an important part of his character design though. I'm not sure how they could implement sliders without getting rid of this aspect entirely.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4053639#Comment_4053639
i remember wayyy back in the day when dribbling was a thing but the thing tyat no onr talks about when they tried to buff it to 5 seconds on the ptb and got rid of the enduring counterplay
they've gone back and forth on the ds stun timing multiple times over the years lol
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4037540#Comment_4037540
i did play back then vbut i find it hilarious when survivors pickrate of a perk starts spiking it gets made basekit but if killers pickrate start spiking it gets nerfed into the grounf or in the case of knockout delete and change it
this isn't really true, look at decisive strike for example. they nerfed it a long time ago for this very reason lol. i'd say bhvr is just really inconsistent in their reasoning for changing things
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@supersonic853 said:
An idea I saw that wasnt too bad was a faster bt degrade the longer you stay near who unhooked you. So like with a grace period of like a second or 2 anyone within 6 meters of a ally has their protections degrade 3x as fast or something. At least helps with the survivor completly running behind their teammate. And with the grace period they can get enough away to keep the normal duration. I guess one scenario is if its solo and they happen to run the exact same way which is kinda unlucky but possible on some maps and stuff like basement. Nothings full proof really.
As much as I want to agree, this would only make endgame and basement unhooks nearly impossible for the unhooked survivor to navigate. :\ I really didn't mind 10s BT, 15 feels like a lot (especially when it comes to endgame, 15s is enough to get to most gates if you aren't on the opposite corner of the map). I feel like if they increased haste for the unhooked survivor, it might encourage more players to leave the area with that speed instead of trying to body block. This leaves the question of what happens to the babysitter perk?
Idk I honestly kind of suspect that tunneling will always be an issue and there aren't a lot of ways to counter it at the moment. There are perks that I would love to see reworked to be more effective/worth bringing into the trial but I doubt it will ever happen because it is so complicated to account for the other survs and body blocking. There are a few perk changes that could be made that I believe would help this situation greatly, though:
- Change the conditions of decisive strike deactivating. 60s is honestly a pretty short loop and most people at a mid-range MMR can probably out-loop this timer. As it is, the survivor is either encouraged to bait a pickup (for example, by jumping in a locker) or they lose their perk. I think it would make more sense for the perk to be deactivated after one of the following circumstances: (1) an inconspicuous action is performed, (2) another survivor is hooked, or (3) the perk is used. Cons to this would be I just KNOW there are survivors that will stand around not doing anything until the killer comes for them/will bait chase and not heal teammates etc in order to get value out of their perk. As much as changing the conditions would make sense for the average user, there's always someone who will misuse the mechanic.
- Rework borrowed time. This perk became pretty useless when it became base kit. I'd love to see it be useful again, just maybe in a different manner. Maybe something like "When you unhook a survivor, you grant them protection. For 60s (this is a random time, would definitely need to be studied to see what works best) any damage given to the unhooked survivor will be inflicted upon you instead and you become broken for 30s (again with the timing idk what would work best)." Make this a one time "protection hit" situation instead of just giving the person extra time (which isn't really that helpful in most situations since the addition to base kit). They could add rules requiring that the rescuing survivor must be healthy during those 60s in order to steal the damage, etc etc…. There are a lot of ways they could rework this perk into something useful again. I suggested the broken condition to prevent people from unhooking then hiding in a corner with self care or something, but I'm sure there are other ways to prevent that. Maybe there is a cost, like your aura is revealed to the killer for 5s when you take damage for the other survivor or something.
- Buff babysitter. This perk is great for getting an unhooked survivor away quickly, but I would love to see some additional protections for the unhooked survivors. Reducing the volume of the unhooked survivor's cries for the duration of the perk's effects would be helpful. I think the aura reading that happens for the unhooker should also be given to the unhooked (so they don't just accidentally run straight into the killer off hook).
- Slightly buff for the people. This one sounds odd but hear me out. If survivors could instantly heal the unhooked survivor and take the damage themselves (instead of unhooking then using the perk, which requires an extra second for starting the healing action), it might encourage the killer to just get the easy down instead.
These are just a few suggestions that would give survivors some more room to work with the tunneling dynamic and counter it if they have the right perks equipped. I think there are a lot of perks that could be reworked or adjusted to help counter hard tunneling but these few seem the most obvious to me
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@BoopTheDemo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050775#Comment_4050775
This right here but these survivors have never played killer once in their lifetime.
Lol, I play both. I also don't run this meta build because it isn't fun for me. Was just explaining to you all why other people are.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050619#Comment_4050619
Unless your going against a baby killer those 3 seconds would change literally nothing, if a killer is looking at a hook and they want to tunnel, there gonna tunnel. There only gonna be distracted by the person actually getting the person off the hook if they wanted to HARD tunnel. A information nerf when a killer is literally monitoring the hook (hard tunneling) changes nothing.
And hard tunneling is the most anoyying version of tunneling to go against,
I also didn't get an answer for what is so negative for a killer that isn't tunneling off hook to have a 3s HUD delay?
This wasnt your question
What is really the difference between the HUD changing 3 seconds after someone is unhooked, other than the fact that those two survivors are maybe 10m further away from the hook?This was your question. which you later contradicted with..
Killers hard tunnel without directly face camping all the time by returning to the hook and going after the injured survivor as soon as they know they are off. This would help dramatically in situations like that, especially if using perks that hide scratch marks or quiet your cries.
you implied it wasn't that much of a difference, then said it was. You just want to nerf killers getting info on a survivor being unhooked that ONLY works when there doing other things, other then monitoring the hook. Killers shouldn't get a info nerf for doing other things on the map when someone is hooked. That's not hard tunneling.
A Killer having to run off and do other things instead of monitoring a hook should be the goal when it comes to tunneling. A killer shouldn't get nerfed for doing that.
If anything it would've made more sense for you to propose a change that actually affects killers who sit and monitor the hook on first hook, because this change does nothing about that. Which is the most annoying to face.
The whole ancient "Tunneling is OP" thing has been said for 1000 years. The reason its still here after time and time again because it just isnt. There's tons of counters to it, and if its that "unfun" play a different game honestly.
Getting tunneled to me makes me better in chases and gives me a chance to embarrass a killer and loop him for 3 gens. Its not always about winning. Its ok to die as survivor nobody is mad at you for it. Switch up the builds and try new things based off what you want to experience.
Pay attention to how you lose, and think of ways to prevent it next time. that's the problem, players dont feel like learning new things so they complain and look for nerfs out of pure laziness. a "average level player" doesn't have to be "average" forever. Your mindset will determine if you will be or not.
I use to be a terrible survivor but the more i played and paid attention to things I struggled with, I got better, same with killer. If you just scream "OP" your just giving your brain cope to not improve and learn.
Something that is OP is something that is very strong with little to no counterplay, that's not tunneling.
This wasnt your question
It actually was my question, and still remains unanswered.
This was your question. which you later contradicted with..
The thing you are quoting here isn't a contradiction. I was stating why it would be helpful to reduce tunneling. I would still like to hear why it would be problematic for killers. It would greatly help me understand your POV if you could actually use your words here.
If anything it would've made more sense for you to propose a change that actually affects killers who sit and monitor the hook on first hook, because this change does nothing about that. Which is the most annoying to face
I have been working on this, but can't seem to find a suggestion that isn't exploitable by high-level survivors. Open to whatever you have to suggest.
The whole ancient "Tunneling is OP" thing has been said for 1000 years
I never said this. I explain my concerns with tunneling in a previous reply to you, please go read it again (or for the first time if you skipped over it).
The rest of your comment is unwarranted advice, considering I already stated my stance on not caring about escaping lmao. The tone is also coming off as very condescending, and you put words I didn't say or even imply in my mouth multiple times. With this in mind, I'm going to respectfully decline to respond to it.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050766#Comment_4050766
I have no issue saying it. 🤣 That's been the case for the last 4 years honestly. They say they're aiming for the 60% KR (which is terrible enough as is), but it always feels like they're overshooting it. It's been a lot of BS for a long time now, but getting to the point last year where players were getting locked out of the game for playing incorrectly (primarily on Survivor, since that was the target) was way out of line. I don't know what else they can really do to convey how unimportant they find Survivor to the framework of DBD at this point.
It's funny that survivors get punished for playing incorrectly, but when we mention something that's kind of toxic and doesn't allow the survivor to play correctly should be nerfed its the end of the world for a lot of these guys. Idk I think adding a couple of permanent game modes would resolve a lot of the community complaints haha. Like imagine if we had hide and seek mode (survivors that want to ultra stealth and killers that like to seek them out or try to jump scare them), competitive mode (all strategies allowed on both sides, no 3 vault block on windows, no anticamp timer, etc….), and casual mode (what we have now).
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050757#Comment_4050757
Yeah, I really only take issue with the vine attack sniping too easily and the ease that aura reading provides. And we can all expect he'll be nerfed when the chapter's over since that happens like clockwork. But I think he's been designed so delicately that one wrong move and he's dead in the dust.
I hope not, its actually really refreshing to have another killer with a different chase strategy. Makes playing survivor feel kinda new again, it's fun!
I think you could make the aura reading sniping concern hold true for a lot of killers, honestly. Pyramid Head, Dracula, Artist, nurse can all hit you through solid objects with aura reading. If they make a few tweaks to Henry to slow him down a hair (like I mentioned in my previous comment) I think this will be less problematic. Once the survivors learn how to counter this killer and start having longer chases, aura reading builds won't be all that strong. You have no generator regression pressure, no wasting time perks (like plaything to make them go look for totems instead of doing gens), no anti-loop perks to block windows/pallets or break pallets/walls quicker, etc. It is only strong right now because survivors don't know what they are doing against him yet lol.
The thing with new killers is that it takes survivors MUCH longer to learn how to counter than it does for the killer to learn how to play them/use their power. This is partially due to the lack of a good tutorial, but mainly because (I know this is gonna piss someone off) playing survivor inherently takes a lot more technical skill due to the unbalanced nature of the game. Killers have to be strategic, but they don't necessarily need to have strong technical skills (at average level MMR) to win. This tune changes slightly at the very top of the top group of survivors because they are just so skilled that they start to challenge the killer in a technical manner rather than just a strategic one.
This was a lot of yap to say in a few weeks, this aura reading build will probably only give half the value its giving you today and will likely let some survivors escape (because they will be able to get gens done quickly without any gen pressure perks).
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050712#Comment_4050712
Absolutely. But there's not a whole lot of logic behind it I don't think. 2025 showed me that regardless of what is said, they can switch on a dime.
Maybe this is a bit of a hot take but I feel like survivors have been getting the short end of the stick a lot recently. They changed a bunch of perks and nerfed med kits because of the anti slug/tunnel stuff then cancelled the anti slug/tunnel but kept the nerfs they gave…. They've since reversed most (if not all?) of the perks they messed with in this update, but we still don't have syringe heals (arguably one of the best countermeasures to a killer that is aggressively slugging or tunneling if you can hold a chase for a little bit) and the replacement for it still burns your entire med kit with far less value. I could have accepted a nerf that made the heal take a little longer to pop off or something, but to remove that function entirely is still frustrating. Styptic is also pretty useless now, pretty much just does the same thing as adding charges with gauze but only for self heals (so you're better off just adding more charges in case you need to use it on someone else).
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@UnicornMedal said:
Honestly they only need to tweak a few things, but I'm expecting that they'll change him in a way that will make him incredibly unfun to play after the sales die down and we won't see him too often again.
I hope they don't do a huge nerf. Once I started playing against him with the same mindset as I play against a nurse, I was doing a lot better. Those first few matches where I was getting a feel for him were BRUTAL, but that makes sense. You can't loop this killer like you loop other killers in this game (with the exception of nurse) or you will get downed VERY quickly. When that was figured out, I can extend my chase a bit longer now. I really do think some minor adjustments are in order (either a longer cooldown on a missed vine attack or a smaller radius for the vine attack) but nothing too major really needs to be done.
I did witness a vine attack coming out of a wall rather than the floor twice on Tuesday and thought this was a super busted mechanic (this happened in Hawkins and the vines spread across like 75% of the hallway width and were not passable), but have since realized that was a bug (its only supposed to be placed on floors). I unfortunately don't have clips or game log from when these instances happened so I've just been waiting for it to happen again so I can make an official report with a clip lol
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Have you all ever considered so many survivors are running this random ass meta build because we have so many dash killers nowadays?
@Elan said:
100 % agree.
Sprint Burst
→ decrease speed boost to 125 %
Vigil
→ decrease value to 20 %
Dramaturgy
→ remove add ons from items
→ increase exposed
→ scream reveal location same as bardic inspiration
This is just so incredibly overkill IMO.
For sprint burst, 125% doesn't get you away from a kaneki, blight, nurse, henry, mikey, etc. which kind of defeats the purpose of this build being to counter these incredibly fast dash killers that are selected for 90% of the games.
For vigil, I agree we should decrease the value, but 20% is far too low. I'm thinking we test 30/35/40 instead to see if that makes it a bit more comfortable on the killer end.
Dramaturgy should not be touched, honestly. It isn't a strong perk to begin with. You aren't guaranteed the item, and oftentimes you just get exposed with nothing to show for it lol. It's a meme perk.
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I don't know that The First is necessarily completely broken, but I think a few things could be tweaked to give survivors some loop ability (especially on indoor maps). Some of the main issues I've noticed:
- On indoor maps, it is incredibly hard to dodge/go around the vine attacks. The paths are simply not wide enough in any of the locations to not be read like a book by a half decent killer player. Like, even if I do predict where he's going to put it down, there often isn't a lot I can do. If I run back to dodge (which often times is the only option you have on an indoor map), then I just instantly get hit with an M1 because there is virtually no cooldown after he uses the vine attack. I think either slightly reducing the radius of the vine attack circle or adding a slightly longer cooldown after the attack would make this killer a lot less oppressive on indoor maps. I don't think they should take either of these nerfs too far if they do make them, though. It would be a shame if this new really fun killer got nerfed into the ground IMO.
- It seems to be too easy to activate worldbreaker mode for how powerful it is. The reason I say it's powerful is it gives you the range of a nurse without actually leaving your spot, meaning you can pinch survivors to guarantee damage if you are in a corridor of sorts if you use this power strategically (if the surv runs straight they get hit with the vine attack, if they run back they run into you and take a basic attack). Do I think this should be nerfed? Not necessarily, because there is a counter (doing the clocks to make the mode end quicker). I kind of wonder if addressing what i said in point 1 would fix this anyways, as it might be more difficult for the killer to gain tokens with some slight adjustments to the vine attack. It might still be nice to implement some kind of cooldown on the worldbreaker mode, though. For example, when it ends the killer can't reactivate it for 30 seconds or something.
My best advice for anyone trying to figure out how to counter this killer that is feeling entirely lost is to start looping The First like you'd loop a Nurse. This killer can't really be mind gamed around a pallet or something like others, as he can place his vine attack wherever he wants inside of the placeable radius around him (20-30 meters, not sure where exactly this ends). It's almost better to hold W and look for some tall obstacles to block yourself from the killer's line of sight. Do some silly pathing once they can't see you, continue bobbing and weaving through different obstacles. It's also better to deny the worldbreaker tokens and just take an M1 if you are in a position where you have to choose between that and the vine attack. Perks that disguise your scratchmarks are strong against this killer, as breaking line of sight is your best line of defense.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050623#Comment_4050623
Exactly. Even when the community collectively agreed it was in a great spot, it still had to be nerfed because it was easier to deny tunnels and consolation kills. For it to be active without the perk, even in its weakened state, we'd face yet another Killer apocalypse of the week. 😵
I find it interesting that perks that have a high pick rate tend to be nerfed for survivors because they are "overused" but I constantly see the same 10 perks on killers with nearly no variance. Why is that same logic not followed for both sides? If it was we would see nerfs to perks like BBQ, pain res, DMS, bam, blood favor, etc…. Because from my understanding, that's the reason why DS was nerfed, not necessarily because people were complaining about it being broken.
Btw this is NOT me saying we should nerf those killer perks, just an observation. It's interesting that they haven't been nerfed when previous logic has been "too many people use that perk so it must be OP/broken." Personally, I think it would make more sense to do the opposite. Look at the perks with the lowest pick rate and either rework them or give them a buff. Then nerfs could just be based on community feedback/game performance stats (not just whether they used a perk but what the outcome of the match was when they used it type of stats)
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^ sorry this was delayed in review lol, I see your comment above and I get what you are talking about now. (also idk why that posted twice)
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050290#Comment_4050290
well no your hud shouldn't be lying to you at all. all the changes in that ptb patch was bad and having the hud actively lie in order to maje up for teamnates being bad/the unhooker not bringing perks to prevent it is unhealthy
As it is, there is no perk to obscure the HUD from the killer, nor is there a perk to prevent the loud noise notification on unhook.
What, specifically, is your concern with having, say, a 3 second delay on the HUD? You are still getting the information and know it has a 3 second delay. This just would give rescued survivors a small window to leave or try to do a quick heal or really anything at all rather than instantly being tunneled
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I'm a little confused, what is causing the exit gate to be blocked? If the door is open and you don't have blood warden, the survivors can exit whenever as far as I'm aware. Any claws seen blocking the gate from the killer's POV are not actually there to block the survivor, they are just showing that you can't leave with them.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050403#Comment_4050403
I kinda don't get why anyone can see anyone. I'd rather everyone be anon until scoreboards. But if we're gonna keep it this way I don't get why the killer can profile shop and stream snipe and the survivors can't.
It's nice for survivors to be able to see each other (good to get at least some coms if someone is a live TTVer or something), but yeah, I don't really understand why the killer can see the survivors and not the other way around.
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I'm a little confused, what is causing the exit gate to be blocked? If the door is open and you don't have blood warden, the survivors can exit whenever as far as I'm aware. Any claws seen blocking the gate from the killer's POV are not actually there to block the survivor, they are just showing that you can't leave with them.
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@UnicornMedal said:
I wouldn't mind changing DS if its current implementation became base kit. Given how prevalent tunneling is, it's counterproductive to limit protection against it to a relatively weak perk.
I can only imagine the uproar if they made DS base kit, but I agree. I wouldn't want to get rid of the function it has now, because it proves useful in a lot of matches
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050403#Comment_4050403
I kinda don't get why anyone can see anyone. I'd rather everyone be anon until scoreboards. But if we're gonna keep it this way I don't get why the killer can profile shop and stream snipe and the survivors can't.
It's nice for survivors to be able to see each other (good to get at least some coms if someone is a live TTVer or something), but yeah, I don't really understand why the killer can see the survivors and not the other way around.
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@UnicornMedal said:
I wouldn't mind changing DS if its current implementation became base kit. Given how prevalent tunneling is, it's counterproductive to limit protection against it to a relatively weak perk.
I can only imagine the uproar if they made DS base kit, but I agree. I wouldn't want to get rid of the function it has now, because it proves useful in a lot of matches
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@Artimenius1307 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050220#Comment_4050220
Oh I don't think such anti-slug system would be unhealthy for the game, however it must be looked at from the point of view of "How can bully squads abuse this?". They are notorious after all for not caring about escaping as much, opting for ruining killer's experience as much as they can instead. If I were to add, I would probably make the radius for the other survivor canceling timer build up larger, instead of making the build up itself longer. In the slug cases, it is more likely that the killer will be closer to the slug rather than survivor, especially with Background Player or Sprint Burst making it way safer to do.
I am gonna be honest, I am indeed very surprised that there are killers who play like that. It sounds like they don't just stand still on top of the slug, but rather perform the hardcore slugging strategy, and last time I saw a hardcore slugger was back in 2024 I believe. I mean, there is no longer even the old Deerstalker perk to do so, so it's even less effective now. Though I believe it is indeed a very bad choice of a strategy, I can see it playing out well considering that it's similar to facing a specific killer once a year: you never play vs them ever so you either forget or never learn how to counter them, though I would suggest trying out WGLF or Tenacity considering how often you face such playstyle
For survivor's reward via looping, yeah, they honestly should've added a +1000 obj score "Well Run" for a generator repair whenever you are in chase a long time ago. With current bp economy in shambles, extra 1000 for something like that wouldn't matter much. Ofc you could lose those +1000 if chase broke or get them for free if chase just started and a gen pops, but hey, it's better than nothing
As for both sides getting nerfs, for sure, yes, but I mostly meant that in killer context because killers don't have a lot of common general strategies, majority of them revolve around hooks or kills, after all, that's the goal of killers, to kill as many as they can. Sure some specific builds exist on specific killers, but they aren't good on all of them, after all some killers excel where others struggle. And whenever one general strategy was getting nerfed, that naturally meant that others would become better and would appear more often, even if they stayed the same. As of right now, I would say that there are only 8 general killer strategies: 3 gen defence, slugging, camping, tunneling, spreading hooks, hit and run, totemic, and a mix of all prior except totemic (totemic is a bit of a stretch but eh, many killers can utilise a build with them). Majority of them got worse, some for valid reasons, some I believe for bad reasons. In the end, after the many nerfs, the most effective one became tunneling, the least nerfed imo, so that's a given
P.S. Sorry I don't refer to your words like you do for better clarity, unfamiliar with how to use Element Toolbar yetOh I don't think such anti-slug system would be unhealthy for the game, however it must be looked at from the point of view of "How can bully squads abuse this?". They are notorious after all for not caring about escaping as much, opting for ruining killer's experience as much as they can instead.
I was trying to keep this in mind when coming up with these suggestions, tbh. I think with the timer being paused if another survivor is in the area, there really aren't a lot of ways to abuse this. I've also been thinking it would make sense for the anti-camp radius to even be a little bit smaller on a slugged survivor, since they can crawl away/get out of sight and they can be rescued more safely. I also think it would be important for killers to get some sort of visual indicator (similar to say the hex symbol that appears on the righthand side for survivors) that they are inside of the anti-camp radius (regardless of whether the meter is going up or not) for slugged survivors due to the added mobility of the survivor that doesn't exist when they are on hook.
I suppose I could see these types of survivors "abuse" this mechanic by using tenacity and try to crawl back into the anti-camp radius when they are left somewhere, which is why I suggested the visual indicator above. I think an argument could be made for background player as well, since they could be outside of that radius and still be close enough to get a save. I like your suggestion of increasing the radius that pauses the anti-camp timer for survivors (so the radius is smaller for killers to start increasing the timer and larger for survivors to start pausing the timer) to try and account for this. (Or at least I think that's what you meant by the end of that first paragraph.) Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything else painfully obvious that could conflict with this interaction though.
I am gonna be honest, I am indeed very surprised that there are killers who play like that. It sounds like they don't just stand still on top of the slug, but rather perform the hardcore slugging strategy, and last time I saw a hardcore slugger was back in 2024 I believe. I mean, there is no longer even the old Deerstalker perk to do so, so it's even less effective now. Though I believe it is indeed a very bad choice of a strategy, I can see it playing out well considering that it's similar to facing a specific killer once a year: you never play vs them ever so you either forget or never learn how to counter them, though I would suggest trying out WGLF or Tenacity considering how often you face such playstyle
I was shocked to see it return, too. When the first round of anti slug/tunnel changes failed in the PTB, it came back pretty aggressively, then got worse when the second round failed too. I was hoping by now the playstyle would get boring/not meta again but that hasn't been the case. I do run WGLF a lot, but it only does so much once the killer realizes you are the only survivor with WGLF, so they target you instead of whoever else. As I mentioned before, this is a lot easier to face as a SWF and I just don't have the opportunity to play with 3 other people all the time, so I have accepted that in a lot of these situations there really isn't a lot I can control and I just have to lay there and wait for the game to end and move on. Maybe I'll try adding tenacity too, it just sucks that that means I'll have half of my perk slots filled with stuff just to prevent something that shouldn't be as big of a problem as it is in the first place.
On a semi-related side note: this is funny because when I see killers complain about something like this in the forum (like having to use LB and starstruck because of bully squads but wanting to use more gen regression perks), it feels like everyone sympathizes. But if a survivor does, a lot of people will tell them that's the point of the game. I don't know, I wish more people in the community were willing to hear each other and empathize with the player experience of the other side.
For survivor's reward via looping, yeah, they honestly should've added a +1000 obj score "Well Run" for a generator repair whenever you are in chase a long time ago. With current bp economy in shambles, extra 1000 for something like that wouldn't matter much. Ofc you could lose those +1000 if chase broke or get them for free if chase just started and a gen pops, but hey, it's better than nothing
I feel like this could also be addressed by giving points based on how many minutes (or seconds for some) a survivor is in chase for the duration of the trial vs. how long the trial lasted. Or maybe some combination of the two lol. All I know is that it's super disappointing right now.
As for both sides getting nerfs, for sure, yes, but I mostly meant that in killer context because killers don't have a lot of common general strategies, majority of them revolve around hooks or kills, after all, that's the goal of killers, to kill as many as they can. Sure some specific builds exist on specific killers, but they aren't good on all of them, after all some killers excel where others struggle. And whenever one general strategy was getting nerfed, that naturally meant that others would become better and would appear more often, even if they stayed the same. As of right now, I would say that there are only 8 general killer strategies: 3 gen defence, slugging, camping, tunneling, spreading hooks, hit and run, totemic, and a mix of all prior except totemic (totemic is a bit of a stretch but eh, many killers can utilise a build with them). Majority of them got worse, some for valid reasons, some I believe for bad reasons. In the end, after the many nerfs, the most effective one became tunneling, the least nerfed imo, so that's a given
Yeah, I kind of agree with this sentiment. I just think the power balance is too far off between the different strategies right now and it's making slugging and tunneling too good to not (if that makes sense). Hell, sometimes I wish they would just implement a competitive/casual mode so I can run a funny build and not get instantly destroyed every once in a while. Sometimes its fun to run the bad perks and do things that aren't necessarily the smartest in terms of getting out of the trial, just to switch things up a bit.
In all honesty, I wouldn't even be mad if they only made these anti slug/tunnel changes effective for the first half of the game. Like once the second or third generator pops, they could be disabled. Allow killers to use this more aggressive approach without penalty as the survivors are putting on more pressure, I don't really care. It's just disheartening to see one or the other (or sometimes even both) happening at 5 gens in nearly every match. 4k at 5 gens doesn't reward anyone. I have never seen a game end at 5 gens and any player (killer included) have more than 20,000 points on the scoreboard at the end. I assume you play this game enough to realize how low this is/how few blood points you would get from these matches.
P.S. Sorry I don't refer to your words like you do for better clarity, unfamiliar with how to use Element Toolbar yet
No worries! I just do it to keep better track of my thoughts because I have ADHD lol. If you're on PC, there should be a little paragraph circle to the left of the line of text you are on. If you click that, then click on the quotation mark, there is an option for a quote. It will add that little indent and you can paste whatever you are referencing on top of it. I'm not sure if it works the same on mobile, I haven't checked. There are some other tools under that paragraph button, but that is really the only one I use lol.
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@Artimenius1307 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050220#Comment_4050220
Oh I don't think such anti-slug system would be unhealthy for the game, however it must be looked at from the point of view of "How can bully squads abuse this?". They are notorious after all for not caring about escaping as much, opting for ruining killer's experience as much as they can instead. If I were to add, I would probably make the radius for the other survivor canceling timer build up larger, instead of making the build up itself longer. In the slug cases, it is more likely that the killer will be closer to the slug rather than survivor, especially with Background Player or Sprint Burst making it way safer to do.
I am gonna be honest, I am indeed very surprised that there are killers who play like that. It sounds like they don't just stand still on top of the slug, but rather perform the hardcore slugging strategy, and last time I saw a hardcore slugger was back in 2024 I believe. I mean, there is no longer even the old Deerstalker perk to do so, so it's even less effective now. Though I believe it is indeed a very bad choice of a strategy, I can see it playing out well considering that it's similar to facing a specific killer once a year: you never play vs them ever so you either forget or never learn how to counter them, though I would suggest trying out WGLF or Tenacity considering how often you face such playstyle
For survivor's reward via looping, yeah, they honestly should've added a +1000 obj score "Well Run" for a generator repair whenever you are in chase a long time ago. With current bp economy in shambles, extra 1000 for something like that wouldn't matter much. Ofc you could lose those +1000 if chase broke or get them for free if chase just started and a gen pops, but hey, it's better than nothing
As for both sides getting nerfs, for sure, yes, but I mostly meant that in killer context because killers don't have a lot of common general strategies, majority of them revolve around hooks or kills, after all, that's the goal of killers, to kill as many as they can. Sure some specific builds exist on specific killers, but they aren't good on all of them, after all some killers excel where others struggle. And whenever one general strategy was getting nerfed, that naturally meant that others would become better and would appear more often, even if they stayed the same. As of right now, I would say that there are only 8 general killer strategies: 3 gen defence, slugging, camping, tunneling, spreading hooks, hit and run, totemic, and a mix of all prior except totemic (totemic is a bit of a stretch but eh, many killers can utilise a build with them). Majority of them got worse, some for valid reasons, some I believe for bad reasons. In the end, after the many nerfs, the most effective one became tunneling, the least nerfed imo, so that's a given
P.S. Sorry I don't refer to your words like you do for better clarity, unfamiliar with how to use Element Toolbar yetOh I don't think such anti-slug system would be unhealthy for the game, however it must be looked at from the point of view of "How can bully squads abuse this?". They are notorious after all for not caring about escaping as much, opting for ruining killer's experience as much as they can instead.
I was trying to keep this in mind when coming up with these suggestions, tbh. I think with the timer being paused if another survivor is in the area, there really aren't a lot of ways to abuse this. I've also been thinking it would make sense for the anti-camp radius to even be a little bit smaller on a slugged survivor, since they can crawl away/get out of sight and they can be rescued more safely. I also think it would be important for killers to get some sort of visual indicator (similar to say the hex symbol that appears on the righthand side for survivors) that they are inside of the anti-camp radius (regardless of whether the meter is going up or not) for slugged survivors due to the added mobility of the survivor that doesn't exist when they are on hook.
I suppose I could see these types of survivors "abuse" this mechanic by using tenacity and try to crawl back into the anti-camp radius when they are left somewhere, which is why I suggested the visual indicator above. I think an argument could be made for background player as well, since they could be outside of that radius and still be close enough to get a save. I like your suggestion of increasing the radius that pauses the anti-camp timer for survivors (so the radius is smaller for killers to start increasing the timer and larger for survivors to start pausing the timer) to try and account for this. (Or at least I think that's what you meant by the end of that first paragraph.) Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything else painfully obvious that could conflict with this interaction though.
I am gonna be honest, I am indeed very surprised that there are killers who play like that. It sounds like they don't just stand still on top of the slug, but rather perform the hardcore slugging strategy, and last time I saw a hardcore slugger was back in 2024 I believe. I mean, there is no longer even the old Deerstalker perk to do so, so it's even less effective now. Though I believe it is indeed a very bad choice of a strategy, I can see it playing out well considering that it's similar to facing a specific killer once a year: you never play vs them ever so you either forget or never learn how to counter them, though I would suggest trying out WGLF or Tenacity considering how often you face such playstyle
I was shocked to see it return, too. When the first round of anti slug/tunnel changes failed in the PTB, it came back pretty aggressively, then got worse when the second round failed too. I was hoping by now the playstyle would get boring/not meta again but that hasn't been the case. I do run WGLF a lot, but it only does so much once the killer realizes you are the only survivor with WGLF, so they target you instead of whoever else. As I mentioned before, this is a lot easier to face as a SWF and I just don't have the opportunity to play with 3 other people all the time, so I have accepted that in a lot of these situations there really isn't a lot I can control and I just have to lay there and wait for the game to end and move on. Maybe I'll try adding tenacity too, it just sucks that that means I'll have half of my perk slots filled with stuff just to prevent something that shouldn't be as big of a problem as it is in the first place.
On a semi-related side note: this is funny because when I see killers complain about something like this in the forum (like having to use LB and starstruck because of bully squads but wanting to use more gen regression perks), it feels like everyone sympathizes. But if a survivor does, a lot of people will tell them that's the point of the game. I don't know, I wish more people in the community were willing to hear each other and empathize with the player experience of the other side.
For survivor's reward via looping, yeah, they honestly should've added a +1000 obj score "Well Run" for a generator repair whenever you are in chase a long time ago. With current bp economy in shambles, extra 1000 for something like that wouldn't matter much. Ofc you could lose those +1000 if chase broke or get them for free if chase just started and a gen pops, but hey, it's better than nothing
I feel like this could also be addressed by giving points based on how many minutes (or seconds for some) a survivor is in chase for the duration of the trial vs. how long the trial lasted. Or maybe some combination of the two lol. All I know is that it's super disappointing right now.
As for both sides getting nerfs, for sure, yes, but I mostly meant that in killer context because killers don't have a lot of common general strategies, majority of them revolve around hooks or kills, after all, that's the goal of killers, to kill as many as they can. Sure some specific builds exist on specific killers, but they aren't good on all of them, after all some killers excel where others struggle. And whenever one general strategy was getting nerfed, that naturally meant that others would become better and would appear more often, even if they stayed the same. As of right now, I would say that there are only 8 general killer strategies: 3 gen defence, slugging, camping, tunneling, spreading hooks, hit and run, totemic, and a mix of all prior except totemic (totemic is a bit of a stretch but eh, many killers can utilise a build with them). Majority of them got worse, some for valid reasons, some I believe for bad reasons. In the end, after the many nerfs, the most effective one became tunneling, the least nerfed imo, so that's a given
Yeah, I kind of agree with this sentiment. I just think the power balance is too far off between the different strategies right now and it's making slugging and tunneling too good to not (if that makes sense). Hell, sometimes I wish they would just implement a competitive/casual mode so I can run a funny build and not get instantly destroyed every once in a while. Sometimes its fun to run the bad perks and do things that aren't necessarily the smartest in terms of getting out of the trial, just to switch things up a bit.
In all honesty, I wouldn't even be mad if they only made these anti slug/tunnel changes effective for the first half of the game. Like once the second or third generator pops, they could be disabled. Allow killers to use this more aggressive approach without penalty as the survivors are putting on more pressure, I don't really care. It's just disheartening to see one or the other (or sometimes even both) happening at 5 gens in nearly every match. 4k at 5 gens doesn't reward anyone. I have never seen a game end at 5 gens and any player (killer included) have more than 20,000 points on the scoreboard at the end. I assume you play this game enough to realize how low this is/how few blood points you would get from these matches.
P.S. Sorry I don't refer to your words like you do for better clarity, unfamiliar with how to use Element Toolbar yet
No worries! I just do it to keep better track of my thoughts because I have ADHD lol. If you're on PC, there should be a little paragraph circle to the left of the line of text you are on. If you click that, then click on the quotation mark, there is an option for a quote. It will add that little indent and you can paste whatever you are referencing on top of it. I'm not sure if it works the same on mobile, I haven't checked. There are some other tools under that paragraph button, but that is really the only one I use lol.
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@NightmareKnight25807 said:
I assume the slugging camp meter will also be disabled if a player is nearby like the hooks? Because that's the only way that could work
Yes, that is exactly how it would work. And would also be disabled after gens are finished, like the hook timer. I swear I'm not trying to pitch a broken idea, just something that would help people have more fun before they die in these increasingly common toxic games.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050289#Comment_4050289
the first statement you highlighted and responded to was not a response at all you responded to it as if it was about slugs when i asked why add a HUD delay on unhooking when the killer can just watch the hook? If he wanted to tunnel to be toxic.
and if a killer is watching the hook I'm pretty sure a hud change of 3 seconds doesn't help with a sneaky unhook at all.
So the only benefit would be from them actually leaving the hook. This changes nothing about tunneling being used in a toxic way. Just being used in a effective way.
What is really the difference between the HUD changing 3 seconds after someone is unhooked, other than the fact that those two survivors are maybe 10m further away from the hook?I dont understand the question. There will be 0 difference with this change if the killer watches the hook. Why nerf something that does nothing to actual HARD tunneling?
Also trying to stop a basic fundamental strategy in a killer / survivor game just doesn't make any sense there are plenty ways to deal with something as ancient as tunneling in this game, plenty of perks and builds you can play with to try and avoid it all together, and if your playing with friends? Even better, SWFs have insane potential and coms are everything.
Secondly no killer is downing a survivor and camping him unless hes on a pallet, flash saves, trying to find the last survivor or there all close. These are all valid. If a killer downs someone and camps then he will lose lol. If theirs 3 people left and 2 of you get caught together AND downed simultaneously that is 100% fair play. Thats not toxic.
If a killer is staying out of anti-camp range to prevent a self-unhook, then the 3 seconds would help in a lot of cases, actually. It's quite easy to distract many different killers for a moment or two while another teammate swoops in for a quick rescue. Maybe you throw a pebble at a locker that is near the hook, but not in the current direction the killer is looking in. Maybe you start a gen right behind them so they want to turn around and kick it or try to grab you off of it. I'm not saying that adding a HUD delay would 100% fix every tunneling problem ever, but it would help in a variety of situations.
Why nerf something that does nothing to actual HARD tunneling?
Killers hard tunnel without directly face camping all the time by returning to the hook and going after the injured survivor as soon as they know they are off. This would help dramatically in situations like that, especially if using perks that hide scratch marks or quiet your cries. I also didn't get an answer for what is so negative for a killer that isn't tunneling off hook to have a 3s HUD delay?
I can think of a ton of things that would help with hard tunneling with camping you are thinking of, but you (and many others, myself included tbh) would hate them because they would be exploitable/broken if used improperly (which we all know will happen). I mean, look at what happened in the PTB when we tried to do something that would actually help this lol. If you have a stronger, yet non-exploitable suggestion for a fix, I would love to hear it because I can't think of one myself.
Also trying to stop a basic fundamental strategy in a killer / survivor game just doesn't make any sense there are plenty ways to deal with something as ancient as tunneling in this game
I recommend reading my replies to another user here. They're a bit lengthy, but explain the logic pretty clearly.
@maybesarahhh said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049463#Comment_4049463
The anti-camp system, which is pretty flawed, is somewhat covered due to timer of the hooked survivor, this timer, is far bigger for the downed survivor, so the flaws of anti camp system will be much more dominant in slugging case.
Wow, this was a difficult sentence to read but let me try to break it down. You're saying that the anti-camp is affected by the hook timer? It isn't. Anti-camp is purely based on how long the killer is in proximity. If you're trying to make the argument that the anti-camp timer is similar to the time to reach second state, sure, I guess? I'm still not sure what you are implying with how this will affect the slug situation. In a purely hypothetical situation, if they were to implement this, I would imagine the anti-camp would be the same length for the slugged survivor as it is for hooked. This makes sense because when you reach the end of a slug timer, you die, not move to another hook stage. Additionally, the slugged survivor has to be fully recovered before they can pick themselves up. If I totally understood you wrong please feel free to elaborate.
As for my argument being pointless, you seem to ignore that perks will very much enable the abuse, especially perks like Background Player.
I understand how background player can be frustrating to face as killer, but I still don't think that's a valid argument for not adding an anti-camp timer to slugs. If you are saying perks like this are a reason a killer doesn't want to pick someone up, sure that is true, but it isn't a reason to stand there and refuse to let that survivor participate in normal gameplay for the rest of the match. You chase away nearby survivors and pick up, or you leave them there. If you aren't camping, they wouldn't be able to pick themselves up (unless they have a perk to do so), so another person would have to come get them, meaning you have one in chase and two off of a gen to get this heal figured out, leaving only one to be working on a generator. That's a wonderful situation for the killer to be in, the survivors can't put on any pressure at all.
As for point 2-3, it's naive to believe that delaying info will do anything at all to hard tunneling
…
if people wanna camp, they now stand at a distance and immediately go in once they see another survivor going for a save, resulting in the system being more of a cosmetic one. Absolutely same thing will happen here, the killer who wants to tunnel 1 survivor out will simply be in a position where they can tell that the survivor got unhooked
If a killer wants to hard tunnel, you are correct that they are going to keep going after that person. These small changes would just make that a more difficult task. I would love to see other things, but I saw how easily they can be misused in the wrong hands. This, on the other hand, isn't really an exploitable mechanic. There are a lot of ways to sneak by the killer and avoid line of sight (especially if they are just standing in one spot staring), so this would reward survivors for being sneaky. Not saying it would resolve every case of tunneling ever, but it would help with a good chunk of them at least. If you have a better suggestion I'm all ears.
So in the end, this hurts more those killer players that want to use the unhook notification as information, after all delayed info is far less valuable
The information is only delayed for a few seconds according to my suggestion. If the killer isn't trying to tunnel, why would they need to know the precise time someone was let off hook? Not to mention, they would still know, as the amount of time before the HUD changes would be set so they could go "oh Nea got off the hook 4 seconds ago" and do with that information as they will. I agree that it is valuable information for the killer to receive, just maybe not that it needs to be instantaneous.
I just want to make it clear that I'm not trying to argue whether or not anti slug/tunnel should exist here. BHVR already thinks it should or else they wouldn't have tested these changes out twice in PTBs and would not have spent an entire year saying they were working on it. With this in mind, what I have suggested in the original post is the healthiest way I can imagine any changes being made. If you have something better to suggest I would love to hear it, but "they shouldn't change anything to fix this" isn't a good enough answer for me here, considering they spent all of last year trying to address it.
Thank you for providing your thoughts and feedback on my suggestion, it was nice to actually hear a written concern rather than the previous comments that only claim the PTB proves this won't work. Like, the PTBs were much more intense and had way more going on than what I've suggested in this post. I do genuinely like to hear what killer mains are thinking, though, so we can discuss and either come to an agreement or try to meet at a middle ground somewhere. Its frustrating trying to have these discussions when all anyone wants to do is be rude for no reason.
@maybesarahhh said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049861#Comment_4049861
My apologies in advance for another long-winded reply, but I am enjoying this conversation lol.
Thank you for the edit, I now understand what you were meaning better! I genuinely tried before the edit and just wasn't 100% sure where you were going with it and was unfortunately a little bit off. As for the idea that there is no rush with a slug, I don't know that that is necessarily true. Yes, the timer is longer, but when it's over you're done. It's not like gaining another hook state where you still have another shot at life. There is also currently no way to regenerate the bleed out bar, it stays at the same amount it was at when you were last picked up the next time you go down. (Maybe a med kit addon for this or something could be an interesting thing for the devs to add?) I guess I could see the argument to make the anticamp timer (if that is what they decided to do) a little longer for a slugged survivor than a hooked one for these reason, though.
I do agree that the anticamp system could be better, but it also does work as intended sometimes (not as much as I would like, but still better than nothing). I guess the way I see it, when I'm playing survivor I'd rather have an option to get up in that situation, even if it did mean I'm instantly in another chase. That's at least fun. I don't really care about whether or not I escape, tbh. I play this game for a good time, not to run out of the exit gate. Don't take this as "I just throw I don't even try" because I try as hard as I can to either escape myself or make a sacrifice so my team can escape, I just don't need it to happen to enjoy the game (I hope this makes sense).
With how I play killer, adding a slug anticamp timer likely would have no affect on me at all, unless I'm making a dumb mistake (which would be on me lol) like being too paranoid looking for other survs or losing them in the grass because I have limited hearing abilities so the directionality is hard for me to catch sometimes. I'm having a hard time seeing how adding one would be unhealthy, I guess. I understand your argument for why you don't like it and why it's not perfect and I agree, but I just feel like it is better than nothing.
As for your example which cases to cover with anti-slug timer, I am genuinely confused, do killers in your games actually just stand on top of a slug and don't do anything? This style of gameplay is pretty much a game throw, no? I honestly haven't seen anyone play like that pretty much ever.
Yes, this happens maybe every third match for me. It's…. exhuasting tbh. I'm not the best player ever, nor do I think I'm the worst. I'd like to think I'm somewhere in the "average" category, maybe slightly above average. So I suppose it could just have something to do with my specific MMR and the fact that I typically play in the evening (which tends to be more toxic than daytime/morning games) but it happens a ton in my lobbies. I think I would be less adamant for a fix of some kind, even if it isn't perfect or the most useful in every instance, if I wasn't laying on the floor bleeding out in 15-20% of my matches. It's also just kinda frustrating bleeding out at zero hooks on every single person. It's just shorting survivors' ability to participate in the game.
As for the style of gameplay being a throw…. usually I would say yes, but for certain killers it really is difficult to counter, especially without a full SWF (which I almost never have). Example: the other night I was playing with a friend (so just a duo, 2 randoms) and we got in a match with a slugging clown and it was borderline psychological torture. he never hooked anyone, even when it was safe to do so. He would just slug, then throw purple bottles, walk away and kick a gen, come back and throw purple bottles, walk away and down another survivor, throw purple bottles on both, etc. I'm not even sure what we could have done to counter this style of gameplay, even with a full team. Nobody had hardened (it was chaos shuffle but also do people ever run that perk?) so they couldn't go through the mist to pick up survivors without clown instantly returning (he was returning as soon as he saw they were up on the HUD anyway but those few extra seconds are crucial to making sure at least one survivor stays up). They also couldn't work on gens because then they were just getting slugged whenever they tried. The match lasted almost 45 minutes. Everyone died to bleed out, not a single hook or mori. We tried to spread out, but we were on a small map (red forest temple). It was obvious this person got enjoyment out of making us suffer, because he managed to get all four slugged maybe 5 minutes into the game, but let my duo wiggle and pick someone up before starting the same exact pattern back up. He could have hooked all of us and moved on with his day but decided not to. That wasn't a mercy drop, it was because that clown wanted to make us bleed out and be miserable the entire match. I just find this playstyle problematic, for obvious reasons. Like yeah, I can just go next and emotionally I'm fine after the match, but I wasted a third of my available gaming time for the evening in this one match. I suppose I could have abandoned, but that kind of seems like a bandaid for a bigger problem, which is that this is even possible in the first place.
Regarding the hard tunneling, well, it's a hard issue to find solution for, as I said before, preferably I would want spreading hooks to be rewarded, so it is an actual choice between tunneling, which benefits you greatly, and not tunneling, which doesn't benefit you at all. Whenever I play killer I prefer to go with spreading hooks, and let me tell you, the game more often than not punishes me for doing so with quick gens, to be fair, I do run little slowdowns and I am no professional, but still.
I play with a similar game style when I play killer and I have to agree I wish there was a bigger reward for playing in a way that doesn't BM other players and spreading out pressure on different survivors. It would also be great to see better rewards for looping. Like, if I'm playing survivor and I manage to loop the killer for 4 gens, why am I always the lowest on the scoreboard? I arguably did the most difficult task for the longest amount of time, yet get punished because I didn't touch a generator during that time, even though there is no way I could have with the killer chasing me. Idk maybe these kinds of incentives would lower the amount of slugging/tunneling in games just because we want more BPs. I also wish if you get hard tunneled but waste enough of the killer's time to get a 3 out, that should still count as a victory towards your MMR. Like, ultimately it was your effort that got the team a win.
There is actually a long history of all the killer strategies getting nerfed to such oblivion that they either barely work or don't really work at all. Slugging, camping, hit and run, 3 gen (Thank got this one was removed though), all those strategies were nerfed quite severely to the point that they became far less effective, but guess which strategy was barely touched? That's right, it's the tunneling. Not saying they should nerf tunneling in it's entirety though, only the hard one. Preferably also make other strategies, except for 3 gen, more viable again.
You could say this about both sides to be completely honest. Survivors have seen so many nerfs over the years: Spine Chill, Distortion, Conviction (although this one is still good, not being able to get the charge on a self heal anymore is rough in certain matches), med kit addons, flashlights, perma-loops (3 vault limit in chase), early hatch escapes, keys and maps, pallet spawns (this could be argued for either side honestly, this seems to be constantly changing. understandable, they are working to find balance I think), self care, etc… It's all in the name of balance, which I think makes sense. They also recently started punishing survivors for countering the tunnel/slug by leaving people there to die and just getting the gens done and leaving. People get bans for this, so it forces them to put themselves in a bad position (they have to attempt to do something for the other survivor or else they will get a ban), thus rewarding the killer for proxying or whatever the situation may be that made it undesirable to intervene in the first place.
What I think a lot of the player base doesn't understand (not saying you because it seems like you actually have a pretty balanced take on this stuff) is these changes are constantly happening on both sides of the coin and it is a good thing (for the most part). Nerfs don't happen because a playstyle is bad, they happen because a playstyle is too strong for the other side to reasonably counter with average level players (we can't lump the super high MMR players who have been playing since launch and only play in SWFs into this and I fear a lot of people who only play killer act like this is what the entire survivor base is like when in reality it's only the top maybe 10% of players).
And personally, what I would do for anti tunnel system? Hmmmm, well, I did have an idea of first 3 unhooks getting different kind of protection, one where you get only 5 seconds of endurance (10 if basement) which cannot be modified with perks in any way, but something like 20-30 seconds of 15% Haste. Short duration of endurance so that you do not go straight with bodyblocking, and prioritize getting the heck away, and lengthy haste so that chasing you is still an option, but with a heavy price. The rest of the unhooks get current 15 seconds of each. And honestly should be shortened in egc it is so dumb how I just shift w into exit games in egc and killer can only watch me
This is a good alternate suggestion to be honest! Although I do think the 10 seconds of endurance should probably stay unless we make the first 10 seconds even faster (say 50% haste) so they actually have an opportunity to get distance from the killer (reminder we have so many dash killers nowadays). Obviously I don't know the perfect numbers without any PTB with this type of thing in my time playing on PC (i played on console for years before i swapped over a few months ago), so those numbers could be fine tuned based on a PTB.
Specifically, this if you don't want to read it all:
I just want to make it clear that I'm not trying to argue whether or not anti slug/tunnel should exist here. BHVR already thinks it should or else they wouldn't have tested these changes out twice in PTBs and would not have spent an entire year saying they were working on it. With this in mind, what I have suggested in the original post is the healthiest way I can imagine any changes being made. If you have something better to suggest I would love to hear it, but "they shouldn't change anything to fix this" isn't a good enough answer for me here, considering they spent all of last year trying to address it.
and:
What I think a lot of the player base doesn't understand is these changes are constantly happening on both sides of the coin and it is a good thing (for the most part). Nerfs don't happen because a playstyle is bad, they happen because a playstyle is too strong for the other side to reasonably counter with average level players (we can't lump the super high MMR players who have been playing since launch and only play in SWFs into this and I fear a lot of people who only play killer act like this is what the entire survivor base is like when in reality it's only the top maybe 10% of players).
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Does anyone know the out of plane range for the vine attack? I had Henry place vines on a wall and hit me from shockingly far away on a few occasions while playing surv last night.
I'm wondering:
a) Is it intentional that the vine attack can be placed on walls or is this a bug? For some reason I thought this attack was only meant to come out of the floor, similar to ranged M2 attacks of other killers.
b) If it is intentional, how far away from the wall do I need to be to not get hit with the vine attack? There were times when I'd be in the middle of a Hawkins hallway (those are pretty wide) and a vine attack would hit a wall next to me and connect with me.
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@Classic_Rando said:
It’s clear that DC penalties are still not harsh enough
I'm wary of them making DC penalties more harsh with the game still not being able to tell the difference between a crash and a rage quit. If my internet goes out because the wind is blowing 80 MPH where I live (happens somewhat frequently), the 5 minute delay can already be annoying if it for whatever reason got detected as a quit by the DC system. If it were longer/more harsh/permanently there to affect my next DC (that would happen for a similar reason, I don't really DC matches unless some really wild stuff like mega sandbagging from my team is going on and I get the abandon option), then I would be getting unfairly punished for leaving the match under circumstances I could not control.
Maybe if they introduced some kind of appeal system a longer ban would be okay, but I feel like the developers already have too much on their plates with this game so this likely wouldn't really work all that well.
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If you're seeing this often enough running solo queue and it really bugs you, I suggest adding hardened to your build (Lara Croft perk, if you are FTP just keep checking the shrine it will show up in there eventually). Not only will it stop you from screaming, but it will also reveal the killer's aura to you every time you would have screamed. You do have to clean or bless one totem and open a chest for this perk to activate and it will often be a waste of a perk slot (unless, again, you are seeing this build constantly) so there is kind of a payoff to this. I typically like to run this with Inner Strength to get some extra benefit from messing with the totem, but you can also run it with a boon that you enjoy or just not double dip lol.
Hopefully this helps in your future matches! <3
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@Elan said:
Rework:
The first time survivor starts repairing generator, your TR will be trasfered to it and dull totem will become a hex totem. When the generator is finished or hex totem is cleansed, perk deactivates.
At first I wasn't sure I was on board with this being the worst perk ever, but I actually really like this suggestion to get the strength on par with other hex perks.
Are you thinking just for the first generator in the game, or would it keep getting triggered when other gens are started for the first time (if the first is complete obviously, since you can't have TR on two gens)? I think it continuing to trigger on unstarted gens after the first generator is completed and if the totem wasn't already cleansed would be cool.
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I've been having trouble against this killer as well. Like there are obviously some matches where I can tell the killer doesn't know how the power works yet so it's easy, but the ones where the killers have already seemed to perfect it? Those ones are rough.
Even if they weren't to change the mechanics, some kind of indicator on the ground when he is aiming (similar to Pyramid head or Dracula) would be incredibly helpful. If this already exists, I need a way to change the color or something because I could not see it for the life of me in any of my games until about 0.5s before the attack actually hits (I would think you should at least be able to see it when the sound indicating that he has released it plays, but there is a delay after that before it shows). Due to this lack of information, this really feels similar playing against the nurse to me. Like, they both have a surprise ranged attack (kind of, the hit from the blink is technically a melee attack, but the distance from blink + hit has a ranged aspect to it), but Vecna (The First) has a faster base movement speed, faster recovery, and doesn't actually leave the spot they start the attack from. This last one is what is making this killer feel the most oppressive IMO, as they can forcibly pinch you by placing the circle in front of you and making you run back, especially on indoor maps where the circle is unable to be pathed around in the halls and many rooms without getting hit because the diameter is so large.
To give the benefit of the doubt, it's only been a day, so maybe there is a counter here that I'm not understanding yet. I do think this character's design and power are super fun and interesting and appreciate that we are getting some more variety in the killer power department. (Because tbh the last couple of new killers have felt familiar to me with Springtrap getting a combo of teleporting, projectile M2, and some base kit stealth, Kaneki getting a dash/deep wound attack, and Krasue getting infection and dash attacks.) I love seeing some new variety in the gameplay mechanics and understand it might take a few iterations to balance, but I'm optimistic this will be a really good addition to the lineup of killers.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048888#Comment_4048888
we had the hud lying in the first anti slug tunnel ptb
While this is true, that PTB had a much larger set of more complicated rules than simply just having a small delay on the HUD and removing the unhook notification. From the official 9.2.0 PTB patch notes:
Unhook Protections Update
- Survivors that are unhooked or unhook themselves receive Unhook Protections for 30 seconds, which include:10% Haste status effectEndurance status effectElusive status effect (new status effect that hides grunts of pain, aura, scratch marks, and pools of blood)No collision with other playersReveal the Killer's aura within 32 metersImmunity to Killer InstinctImmunity to AFK crows
These effects linger for 3 seconds after being healed for a full health state.
These effects are lost when performing a Conspicuous Action.
These effects are disabled when all generators are completed, except for the Haste and Endurance status effects.
The Survivor is still susceptible to attacks and powers.
Hook Status Update
- When a Survivor is hooked, the hook's status is obscured for the Killer:The Killer cannot see the hook's status in the HUDThe Killer can no longer see the hook's aura
- When a Survivor is unhooked:There is no loud noise notificationThe hook's status in the HUD is revealed 10 seconds later
These effects are disabled when all generators are completed.
IIRC, the main issues with this PTB were actually the unhook protections, although the hook status was also a bit overboard (especially against lower tier killers). I'm thinking something more like 3-8 seconds rather than 10 would be more appropriate, as well as the killer still being able to see the hook aura (and it disappearing at the same time the HUD changes rather than at the same time as the unhook).
So I guess you could call this one suggestion a diet version of one tiny aspect of the 9.2.0 PTB if you really wanted to, it wouldn't be entirely false. But for the rest of it my argument still stands, see here:
@maybesarahhh said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049095#Comment_4049095
I was trying to have a discussion where you actually say something to back up yout point so I can understand your POV but you are refusing to participate in said discussion. I've explained multiple times that comparing this to past PTBs is comparing apples to oranges. You have yet to explain your own logic other than just "the PTB!!" when I've already explained how that logic doesn't make sense.
- Comparing an anticamp timer on a slug to the previous 90 seconds of slugging giving you a permanant self recovery doesn't make sense, as the entire mechanic is different and it adds rules that protect the killer. It is also entirely different than the 120 second version with the buff for multiple downed survivors. Anticamp on hook works. Being in the dying state should not put a survivor in a worse position than being on the hook. That is literally rewarding killers for not participating in normal gameplay. If the killer doesn't want to pick a survivor up, it should be for reasons other than to avoid anticamp on a hook.
- This was only in 9.2.0, which had a ton of incredibly broken things added to the mix. We have yet to see what simply taking away the notification would do. If the killer doesn't detect a survivor approaching the hook, they should not be rewarded with free information. The survivor could do everything right in this situation and still get tunneled because the killer knows the instant they are unhooked, even if they aren't aware enough to see the unhook themselves.
- Entirely different from the 9.2.0 PTB l, which masked the HUD entirely for the killer. This is a few second grace period to give the unhooked survivor a chance to get somewhere safe.
Clearly, these are not the same as the PTBs. Hence why I'm making the argument that your argument has no substance to it.
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@top500spiderman said:
I mean honestly these really are just diet versions of the changes in the PTB
Iv read your post and something confuses me, If a killer wanted to tunnel someone out the game for the sole purpose to ruin someone's game, what would making them stand there and watch the hook change?
Why take away information when they leave the hook, when if they stay nothing changes? Unless your trying to say patrolling gens then going right back to the hook is OP
And if that's the case you want to nerf tunneling so survivors can play better against it to win more because you think its OP. It would mean that this has nothing to do with a killer trying to be toxic purposely. You just wanna win. Tunneling isn't OP and theirs counterplay.
Regarding your slugging suggestion, this is another change that seems masked to be for something done to be toxic when it kinda seems like you just want it for more hatch escapes or flash saves, because ummm correct me if I'm wrong but is camping a downed person in the middle of the game not throwing??
People typically only proxy camp a slug when their going against a team of flashies or the survivor is on a pallet, and also to find the last survivor. All of these situations are valid slugs. What are you trying to prevent here exactly?
I think you've got the wrong idea of where I'm coming from here.
If a killer wanted to tunnel someone out the game for the sole purpose to ruin someone's game, what would making them stand there and watch the hook change?
It's less about forcing them to hook, and more about giving the death state survivor an option. If there is an anti-camp timer on both slugs and hooks, this gives the survivor another opportunity to get back on their feet play the game if they are being face camped. Yes, the killer is going to continue to tunnel them, I never claimed they wouldn't. But at least they can run around and do a loop and actually play the game, rather than just sit there waiting. Most survivors know they are going to die no matter what when a killer makes that decision, so this would just make the time leading up to said death a bit more enjoyable/fun. I'm not trying to break the balance game, just make it a bit more enjoyable for the people who currently are sentenced to the most boring 4 minutes of their life when they get slugged and face camped.
Why take away information when they leave the hook, when if they stay nothing changes? Unless your trying to say patrolling gens then going right back to the hook is OP
This would help for situations where the killer is proxy camping to avoid a self-unhook, but having to walk in circles around the radius of the anticamp detection so they can see all sides of the hooked survivor. It gives another survivor the opportunity to get a sneaky unhook in if someone else distracts the killer for a moment. It opens the door for a lot of strategic gameplay for survivors. You are correct that this will not help with face camping, though.
Let me ask you this: What is really the difference between the HUD changing 3 seconds after someone is unhooked, other than the fact that those two survivors are maybe 10m further away from the hook? This is a genuine question, because when I play killer I never return to the unhook unless they are the last two survivors so I don't use this information in the same way other people might. I want to know why this is concerning for a lot of you because I don't see how those few seconds of delay would affect much at all (based on my own experience and how I use the HUD).
you want to nerf tunneling so survivors can play better against it to win more because you think its OP. It would mean that this has nothing to do with a killer trying to be toxic purposely. You just wanna win.
Believe it or not, the reason I want tunneling nerfed (even if only slightly) is so when people are playing with their friends they don't have to sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the match to end because the other three survivors have 0 hooks and only one generator is done because people were trying to make a play to save them. Oftentimes killers will continue to target the same survivor, even when other survivors are in a more vulnerable map position or doing everything in their power to steal the chase.
Additionally, you get almost no bloodpoints when you are a survivor and you are in chase the whole game. Most of your bloodpoints come from objectives (doing gens and cleaning totems) and being altruistic (unhooking your teammates and healing them), neither of which you can do if you are being hard tunneled. So not only did you just get killed and have to sit around waiting for your friends to either escape or also die, but you also are on the bottom of the scoreboard. At the very least, if there were more points rewarded for chases, I think that would make people feel a little less butthurt about it.
I also don't really care about getting out of the gate when I play survivor, I play DBD to have fun and laugh over the silly moments that can happen sometimes (like getting jumpscared - sometimes even by another survivor lmao). Slugging specifically takes out a lot of the fun for me and many others because there's nothing you can do. At least if I'm being tunneled I can run around and still have fun while I'm alive.
Regarding your slugging suggestion, this is another change that seems masked to be for something done to be toxic when it kinda seems like you just want it for more hatch escapes or flash saves, because ummm correct me if I'm wrong but is camping a downed person in the middle of the game not throwing??
When survivors started getting banned for just doing gens and leaving instead of helping that slugged survivor (sometime in the summer last year), it made this less of a throw and encouraged some killers to use it more often. In a lot of situations, it might still be throwing, but in some it isn't. Slugging is especially problematic on small maps where people can't really spread out because it is too easy to slug 2 people who are near each other and cause a whole snowball. Like sure, this is a great strategy to get a win, but it's not really a healthy style of gameplay, as it causes other players to just have to sit around and wait for the game to end. That doesn't even really feel like playing a game at that point, it's just boring. I don't understand how that's fun for the killer either, they're just standing around too.
So no, this isn't about getting a beamer save (I don't ever run a flashlight) or hatch escape. It's about wanting to have fun when I'm logging on to a video game lol.
People typically only proxy camp a slug when their going against a team of flashies or the survivor is on a pallet, and also to find the last survivor. All of these situations are valid slugs. What are you trying to prevent here exactly?
This simply isn't true, I fear. Ever since the first failed PTB, I have seen more frequent slugging than I have ever experienced in my time playing this game. The second failed PTB only made this situation worse. It genuinely feels like by claiming they were doing things to prevent slugging and tunneling for the whole year then not doing it, BHVR indirectly encouraged a lot of killers to adopt this toxic playstyle.
In the situations mentioned with flashies or a pallet save, the anti-camp timer wouldn't go up anyways because another survivor would be nearby. So it's not like adding it would really change anything in that situation.
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@Artimenius1307 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049814#Comment_4049814
I have edited my previous message to make it clearer, it was indeed messy in the anti-camp timer part. As you could probably tell, I am not a big fan of how anti camp system works in dbd, since I find it to be mostly a cosmetic system which invades into killer's freedom more than it should and isn't nearly as detailed as it should be, while not really doing anything regarding camping really (To be quite honest I don't think it should I never found camping to be a big issue excluding cases with one shot killers or specific ones which can deny the hook entirely, like Doctor). It's partially why I don't agree with similar suggestion of copypasting the system for slugging as well
As for your example which cases to cover with anti-slug timer, I am genuinely confused, do killers in your games actually just stand on top of a slug and don't do anything? This style of gameplay is pretty much a game throw, no? I honestly haven't seen anyone play like that pretty much ever.
Regarding the hard tunneling, well, it's a hard issue to find solution for, as I said before, preferably I would want spreading hooks to be rewarded, so it is an actual choice between tunneling, which benefits you greatly, and not tunneling, which doesn't benefit you at all. Whenever I play killer I prefer to go with spreading hooks, and let me tell you, the game more often than not punishes me for doing so with quick gens, to be fair, I do run little slowdowns and I am no professional, but still.
There is actually a long history of all the killer strategies getting nerfed to such oblivion that they either barely work or don't really work at all. Slugging, camping, hit and run, 3 gen (Thank got this one was removed though), all those strategies were nerfed quite severely to the point that they became far less effective, but guess which strategy was barely touched? That's right, it's the tunneling. Not saying they should nerf tunneling in it's entirety though, only the hard one. Preferably also make other strategies, except for 3 gen, more viable again.
And personally, what I would do for anti tunnel system? Hmmmm, well, I did have an idea of first 3 unhooks getting different kind of protection, one where you get only 5 seconds of endurance (10 if basement) which cannot be modified with perks in any way, but something like 20-30 seconds of 15% Haste. Short duration of endurance so that you do not go straight with bodyblocking, and prioritize getting the heck away, and lengthy haste so that chasing you is still an option, but with a heavy price. The rest of the unhooks get current 15 seconds of each. And honestly should be shortened in egc it is so dumb how I just shift w into exit games in egc and killer can only watch meMy apologies in advance for another long-winded reply, but I am enjoying this conversation lol.
Thank you for the edit, I now understand what you were meaning better! I genuinely tried before the edit and just wasn't 100% sure where you were going with it and was unfortunately a little bit off. As for the idea that there is no rush with a slug, I don't know that that is necessarily true. Yes, the timer is longer, but when it's over you're done. It's not like gaining another hook state where you still have another shot at life. There is also currently no way to regenerate the bleed out bar, it stays at the same amount it was at when you were last picked up the next time you go down. (Maybe a med kit addon for this or something could be an interesting thing for the devs to add?) I guess I could see the argument to make the anticamp timer (if that is what they decided to do) a little longer for a slugged survivor than a hooked one for these reason, though.
I do agree that the anticamp system could be better, but it also does work as intended sometimes (not as much as I would like, but still better than nothing). I guess the way I see it, when I'm playing survivor I'd rather have an option to get up in that situation, even if it did mean I'm instantly in another chase. That's at least fun. I don't really care about whether or not I escape, tbh. I play this game for a good time, not to run out of the exit gate. Don't take this as "I just throw I don't even try" because I try as hard as I can to either escape myself or make a sacrifice so my team can escape, I just don't need it to happen to enjoy the game (I hope this makes sense).
With how I play killer, adding a slug anticamp timer likely would have no affect on me at all, unless I'm making a dumb mistake (which would be on me lol) like being too paranoid looking for other survs or losing them in the grass because I have limited hearing abilities so the directionality is hard for me to catch sometimes. I'm having a hard time seeing how adding one would be unhealthy, I guess. I understand your argument for why you don't like it and why it's not perfect and I agree, but I just feel like it is better than nothing.
As for your example which cases to cover with anti-slug timer, I am genuinely confused, do killers in your games actually just stand on top of a slug and don't do anything? This style of gameplay is pretty much a game throw, no? I honestly haven't seen anyone play like that pretty much ever.
Yes, this happens maybe every third match for me. It's…. exhuasting tbh. I'm not the best player ever, nor do I think I'm the worst. I'd like to think I'm somewhere in the "average" category, maybe slightly above average. So I suppose it could just have something to do with my specific MMR and the fact that I typically play in the evening (which tends to be more toxic than daytime/morning games) but it happens a ton in my lobbies. I think I would be less adamant for a fix of some kind, even if it isn't perfect or the most useful in every instance, if I wasn't laying on the floor bleeding out in 15-20% of my matches. It's also just kinda frustrating bleeding out at zero hooks on every single person. It's just shorting survivors' ability to participate in the game.
As for the style of gameplay being a throw…. usually I would say yes, but for certain killers it really is difficult to counter, especially without a full SWF (which I almost never have). Example: the other night I was playing with a friend (so just a duo, 2 randoms) and we got in a match with a slugging clown and it was borderline psychological torture. he never hooked anyone, even when it was safe to do so. He would just slug, then throw purple bottles, walk away and kick a gen, come back and throw purple bottles, walk away and down another survivor, throw purple bottles on both, etc. I'm not even sure what we could have done to counter this style of gameplay, even with a full team. Nobody had hardened (it was chaos shuffle but also do people ever run that perk?) so they couldn't go through the mist to pick up survivors without clown instantly returning (he was returning as soon as he saw they were up on the HUD anyway but those few extra seconds are crucial to making sure at least one survivor stays up). They also couldn't work on gens because then they were just getting slugged whenever they tried. The match lasted almost 45 minutes. Everyone died to bleed out, not a single hook or mori. We tried to spread out, but we were on a small map (red forest temple). It was obvious this person got enjoyment out of making us suffer, because he managed to get all four slugged maybe 5 minutes into the game, but let my duo wiggle and pick someone up before starting the same exact pattern back up. He could have hooked all of us and moved on with his day but decided not to. That wasn't a mercy drop, it was because that clown wanted to make us bleed out and be miserable the entire match. I just find this playstyle problematic, for obvious reasons. Like yeah, I can just go next and emotionally I'm fine after the match, but I wasted a third of my available gaming time for the evening in this one match. I suppose I could have abandoned, but that kind of seems like a bandaid for a bigger problem, which is that this is even possible in the first place.
Regarding the hard tunneling, well, it's a hard issue to find solution for, as I said before, preferably I would want spreading hooks to be rewarded, so it is an actual choice between tunneling, which benefits you greatly, and not tunneling, which doesn't benefit you at all. Whenever I play killer I prefer to go with spreading hooks, and let me tell you, the game more often than not punishes me for doing so with quick gens, to be fair, I do run little slowdowns and I am no professional, but still.
I play with a similar game style when I play killer and I have to agree I wish there was a bigger reward for playing in a way that doesn't BM other players and spreading out pressure on different survivors. It would also be great to see better rewards for looping. Like, if I'm playing survivor and I manage to loop the killer for 4 gens, why am I always the lowest on the scoreboard? I arguably did the most difficult task for the longest amount of time, yet get punished because I didn't touch a generator during that time, even though there is no way I could have with the killer chasing me. Idk maybe these kinds of incentives would lower the amount of slugging/tunneling in games just because we want more BPs. I also wish if you get hard tunneled but waste enough of the killer's time to get a 3 out, that should still count as a victory towards your MMR. Like, ultimately it was your effort that got the team a win.
There is actually a long history of all the killer strategies getting nerfed to such oblivion that they either barely work or don't really work at all. Slugging, camping, hit and run, 3 gen (Thank got this one was removed though), all those strategies were nerfed quite severely to the point that they became far less effective, but guess which strategy was barely touched? That's right, it's the tunneling. Not saying they should nerf tunneling in it's entirety though, only the hard one. Preferably also make other strategies, except for 3 gen, more viable again.
You could say this about both sides to be completely honest. Survivors have seen so many nerfs over the years: Spine Chill, Distortion, Conviction (although this one is still good, not being able to get the charge on a self heal anymore is rough in certain matches), med kit addons, flashlights, perma-loops (3 vault limit in chase), early hatch escapes, keys and maps, pallet spawns (this could be argued for either side honestly, this seems to be constantly changing. understandable, they are working to find balance I think), self care, etc… It's all in the name of balance, which I think makes sense. They also recently started punishing survivors for countering the tunnel/slug by leaving people there to die and just getting the gens done and leaving. People get bans for this, so it forces them to put themselves in a bad position (they have to attempt to do something for the other survivor or else they will get a ban), thus rewarding the killer for proxying or whatever the situation may be that made it undesirable to intervene in the first place.
What I think a lot of the player base doesn't understand (not saying you because it seems like you actually have a pretty balanced take on this stuff) is these changes are constantly happening on both sides of the coin and it is a good thing (for the most part). Nerfs don't happen because a playstyle is bad, they happen because a playstyle is too strong for the other side to reasonably counter with average level players (we can't lump the super high MMR players who have been playing since launch and only play in SWFs into this and I fear a lot of people who only play killer act like this is what the entire survivor base is like when in reality it's only the top maybe 10% of players).
And personally, what I would do for anti tunnel system? Hmmmm, well, I did have an idea of first 3 unhooks getting different kind of protection, one where you get only 5 seconds of endurance (10 if basement) which cannot be modified with perks in any way, but something like 20-30 seconds of 15% Haste. Short duration of endurance so that you do not go straight with bodyblocking, and prioritize getting the heck away, and lengthy haste so that chasing you is still an option, but with a heavy price. The rest of the unhooks get current 15 seconds of each. And honestly should be shortened in egc it is so dumb how I just shift w into exit games in egc and killer can only watch me
This is a good alternate suggestion to be honest! Although I do think the 10 seconds of endurance should probably stay unless we make the first 10 seconds even faster (say 50% haste) so they actually have an opportunity to get distance from the killer (reminder we have so many dash killers nowadays). Obviously I don't know the perfect numbers without any PTB with this type of thing in my time playing on PC (i played on console for years before i swapped over a few months ago), so those numbers could be fine tuned based on a PTB.