maybesarahhh
maybesarahhh
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049285#Comment_4049285
Slugged survivor can not repair gens and requires help from other survivor ( excluding certain perks ) for complete recovery. Killer can tactically slug a survivor since it's a form of pressure that killer can apply on entire survivor team. Camping and tunneling are also form of oppression that killer can do, the difference is in potential efficiency of the action done.
There are cases where slugging is not wise too, but they are less often because they require more specific situations, perks and coordination between survivors.
Game does not reward killer for not hooking survivor. Hooking or slugging are choices that killer can make depending on the state of many other things in the game. Do not forget that slugged survivor can bleed out if left on the ground for too long. Survivor can be slugged more times than being hooked. Slugged survivor can recover up to 95% of the progress on their own where hooked survivor ( excluding few perks ) can't do anything on their own.
To start, I just want to make it clear that I'm not trying to argue whether or not anti slug/tunnel should exist here. BHVR already thinks it should or else they wouldn't have tested these changes out twice in PTBs and would not have spent an entire year saying they were working on it. With this in mind, I'm not going to argue whether or not slugging is a viable strategy. I'm not saying you can't use it tactically, I'm saying it's bad for the health of the game (and the developers seem to agree).
I'm going to reiterate that there are 5 real people that queue into each match. Denying one person the ability to do anything but lay on the ground because "oh they're occupying the killer's time" or whatever someone may want to say is toxic at the end of the day. I really don't think it's a matter of "should we allow killers to do this?" and is more of a "how do we stop killers from doing this without giving the survivors other unexpected advantages?"
Slugged survivor can recover up to 95% of the progress on their own where hooked survivor ( excluding few perks ) can't do anything on their own.
A slugged survivor also can't do anything on their own unless they have a perk to finish picking themselves up so I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at with this.
Game does not reward killer for not hooking survivor
Is it not easier to camp a survivor when they are on the ground vs hooked in the current state of the game? That's the benefit of leaving them there. Requesting that the game does something to make these two states equivalent (i.e. adding an anticamp timer to slugs) is more than reasonable.
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@Artimenius1307 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049311#Comment_4049311
Ah, see, this is where you missed why point 1 is abusable. Like bhvr in some cases, you didn't cover all possible scenarios when you were thinking about the situations which might arise. The anti-camp system, which is pretty flawed, is somewhat covered due to timer of the hooked survivor, this timer, is far bigger for the downed survivor, so the flaws of anti camp system will be much more dominant in slugging case. As for my argument being pointless, you seem to ignore that perks will very much enable the abuse, especially perks like Background Player. Not saying it's gonna happen often, it's not like dbd is filled to the brim with bully squads like it used to, but it can still very much happen
As for point 2-3, it's naive to believe that delaying info will do anything at all to hard tunneling, I mean, let's take a look at the flaw of the camping system: if people wanna camp, they now stand at a distance and immediately go in once they see another survivor going for a save, resulting in the system being more of a cosmetic one. Absolutely same thing will happen here, the killer who wants to tunnel 1 survivor out will simply be in a position where they can tell that the survivor got unhooked. So in the end, this hurts more those killer players that want to use the unhook notification as information, after all delayed info is far less valuableThe anti-camp system, which is pretty flawed, is somewhat covered due to timer of the hooked survivor, this timer, is far bigger for the downed survivor, so the flaws of anti camp system will be much more dominant in slugging case.
Wow, this was a difficult sentence to read but let me try to break it down. You're saying that the anti-camp is affected by the hook timer? It isn't. Anti-camp is purely based on how long the killer is in proximity. If you're trying to make the argument that the anti-camp timer is similar to the time to reach second state, sure, I guess? I'm still not sure what you are implying with how this will affect the slug situation. In a purely hypothetical situation, if they were to implement this, I would imagine the anti-camp would be the same length for the slugged survivor as it is for hooked. This makes sense because when you reach the end of a slug timer, you die, not move to another hook stage. Additionally, the slugged survivor has to be fully recovered before they can pick themselves up. If I totally understood you wrong please feel free to elaborate.
As for my argument being pointless, you seem to ignore that perks will very much enable the abuse, especially perks like Background Player.
I understand how background player can be frustrating to face as killer, but I still don't think that's a valid argument for not adding an anti-camp timer to slugs. If you are saying perks like this are a reason a killer doesn't want to pick someone up, sure that is true, but it isn't a reason to stand there and refuse to let that survivor participate in normal gameplay for the rest of the match. You chase away nearby survivors and pick up, or you leave them there. If you aren't camping, they wouldn't be able to pick themselves up (unless they have a perk to do so), so another person would have to come get them, meaning you have one in chase and two off of a gen to get this heal figured out, leaving only one to be working on a generator. That's a wonderful situation for the killer to be in, the survivors can't put on any pressure at all.
As for point 2-3, it's naive to believe that delaying info will do anything at all to hard tunneling
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if people wanna camp, they now stand at a distance and immediately go in once they see another survivor going for a save, resulting in the system being more of a cosmetic one. Absolutely same thing will happen here, the killer who wants to tunnel 1 survivor out will simply be in a position where they can tell that the survivor got unhooked
If a killer wants to hard tunnel, you are correct that they are going to keep going after that person. These small changes would just make that a more difficult task. I would love to see other things, but I saw how easily they can be misused in the wrong hands. This, on the other hand, isn't really an exploitable mechanic. There are a lot of ways to sneak by the killer and avoid line of sight (especially if they are just standing in one spot staring), so this would reward survivors for being sneaky. Not saying it would resolve every case of tunneling ever, but it would help with a good chunk of them at least. If you have a better suggestion I'm all ears.
So in the end, this hurts more those killer players that want to use the unhook notification as information, after all delayed info is far less valuable
The information is only delayed for a few seconds according to my suggestion. If the killer isn't trying to tunnel, why would they need to know the precise time someone was let off hook? Not to mention, they would still know, as the amount of time before the HUD changes would be set so they could go "oh Nea got off the hook 4 seconds ago" and do with that information as they will. I agree that it is valuable information for the killer to receive, just maybe not that it needs to be instantaneous.
I just want to make it clear that I'm not trying to argue whether or not anti slug/tunnel should exist here. BHVR already thinks it should or else they wouldn't have tested these changes out twice in PTBs and would not have spent an entire year saying they were working on it. With this in mind, what I have suggested in the original post is the healthiest way I can imagine any changes being made. If you have something better to suggest I would love to hear it, but "they shouldn't change anything to fix this" isn't a good enough answer for me here, considering they spent all of last year trying to address it.
Thank you for providing your thoughts and feedback on my suggestion, it was nice to actually hear a written concern rather than the previous comments that only claim the PTB proves this won't work. Like, the PTBs were much more intense and had way more going on than what I've suggested in this post. I do genuinely like to hear what killer mains are thinking, though, so we can discuss and either come to an agreement or try to meet at a middle ground somewhere. Its frustrating trying to have these discussions when all anyone wants to do is be rude for no reason.
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@Artimenius1307 said:
Well, these are not as polished as you believe they are, especially point 1, you missed a rather important issue with it. But let's take it one at a time
For point 1, it is very much abusable in the hands of swf or coordinated players. You should take into account, that killers don't always have safe conditions to pick up a survivor. What if a survivor was downed right under a pallet, and another one is nearby ready to save, and you are not a nurse who can just ignore that? Well, the killer ends up in a lose-lose-lose scenario. Their choice ends up as follows:
1) Pick up the survivor, most likely outcome: survivor is saved via pallet stun, or even flashlight save.
2) Do a back and forth with the other survivor, most likely outcome: The bar fills up, survivor picks themselves up, meanwhile 2 gens are being repaired, 0 pressure gained
3) Leave the slug, commit to the other survivor, forces 1 survivor to actually come and save, but you will be now too far to punish that or use that to make more pressure
No matter what killer does, they end up in a disadvantage. If the player feels like their choice doesn't matter, aka feel powerless, this leads to easy frustration with the game, I would advise to think of ways which do not punish one of the sides severely like that.
As for points 2 and 3, they are kind of similar so I guess I can cover them both. It wasn't great on ptb that killer gets robbed of a pretty crucial information which they might use not for camping/tunneling, but to have the general idea of survivor's whereabouts and, if they have a clear line of sight even if far away, their possible location if they move away from hook right away.
As my general opinion on the matter of slugging/tunneling, I barely ever face slugging as legit strategy so I don't understand the general frustration with it, therefore can't really say much. Tunneling however is something I face quite often, and find only the hard tunneling to be problematic, especially when done by already S tier killers. The solution however to hard tunneling I feel doesn't lie in the nerfing of the tunneling, but in encouraging spreading hooks, because as of right now, you actually do not gain any advantage from spreading hooks, except for perks, but those benefit you after tunneling as well.If we go with encouraging spreading hooks, then it must be something really tempting for killers to do, otherwise it will never beat the benefit of hard tunnel. And it's a great benefit indeed, we all know the regular situation of 1 hooked, 1 chased, 1 saving and 1 repairing. If you remove 1 survivor, the 1 repairing suddenly vanishes from the equation. That's why I would think more into encouraging hook spread instead
Your argument for point 1 makes zero sense. Anticamp timer pauses when another survivor is nearby. Not sure how many hours you have in this game to not know how that mechanic works whatsoever.... Maybe you were just ignorant IDK.
For points 2 and 3: why is the killer being rewarded with information from an event that can be done stealthily? I'm not saying erase the HUD for unhooks on killer side (as we saw in the first ptb). i'm saying there should be a small delay so survivors can move away from the area before the killer is alerted. This isn't taking away the information, it is simply adjusting the timing in which it is shared. This would counter the hard tunneling that you are complaining about by giving the injured survivor a moment to go somewhere else and avoid another chase/recover.
As for personally not experiencing slugs, good for you? I personally see it in about 1/3 of my matches, so it feels like a problem to me.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049162#Comment_4049162
If a killer is camping a survivor, then the camped survivor is still participating in the game by keeping killer occupied. Sure it's not as ''fun'' as making killer take a pallet in the face but it still serves the purpose - give space to the remaining survivor so they can repair gens.
It's a competitive game where one side must escape and another one kill, by all means physically possible. People should understand that there is no rule that forces anyone go ''easy'' or ''hard'' on other player, hence there is no point complaining that someone got less opportunity to play in the way they wanted than another.
This isn't normal gameplay. Killers should not be rewarded for not hooking survivors. Answer this: why is the survivor in a worse position slugged than on hook? These two states should be equivalent (anticamp, endurance on unhook/pickup from anticamp).
As it is now, the game rewards killers for not finishing their objective (hooking the survivor) by not having a camp timer on the slugged survivor.
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@diablo916 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049267#Comment_4049267
Perks to solve problems are bandaid that dont improve the health of the game though. Thats what BHVR always does and a killer can only bring 4 perks. What if the map has 5 problems? Lol also, tell me you dont play killer at high MMR without telling me. A survivor with god pallets up arent even worth chasing a lot of the time. Theres a reason why its better to drop chase with a survivor who's running to shack. I still like my idea better than just "make more perks to solve core gameplay flaws". All survivors want to do is escape as fast as possible with no counterplay. Completely shut off their brains with sprint burst and free value perks, meanwhile killers have to earn every drop of value they get.
A couple of strong pallets existing is not a core gameplay flaw lol. There are many ways to play around a pallet, this suggestion is way too OP for killer side and would be extremely unbalanced.
Maybe you need to try another perk loadout or killer to see if you have more success. Some killers that have good counters to pallets built into their base kit: huntress (can throw a hatchet instead), mikey (can very quickly break pallets in T3), pyramid head (ranged attack can go through pallets), dracula (see pyramid head), krasue (can vault pallets in head form), chucky (can go under pallets when dashing), nurse (for obvious reasons), kaneki (can go over pallets), singularity (strategically placing and using your cameras/sticky ball is antiloop for pretty much any tile in the game). I'm certain I am missing a few here tbh
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This is a bit overkill, imho. A pallet is already only a single use item (assuming the killer breaks it) and there aren't very many of these "god pallet" spawns on any given map anyways (with recent density updates I think we are down to 1-3 of these per map, correct me if I'm wrong here). Having to waste time building pallets and opening windows instead of being on a gen is extremely unproductive for survivors. Not to mention this would give killers an insane buff at the beginning of a match that they quite honestly do not need. We already have perks like blood favor, spirit fury, enduring, and brutal strength to help deal with undesirable pallets.
Alternatively, I think there are a variety of killer perks that could be added to help deal with pallets. Examples include: a perk that allows the killer to "trap" a pallet so that a survivor gets injured when they throw it (limited to a set number of pallets per game or needs to have some kind of prerequisite to activate); a perk that shows the killer auras of upright pallets (similar to windows for survivors, would allow a killer to know if the corner they are going around is clear or not).
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049162#Comment_4049162
A Killer staying by a downed Survivor in such a manner is such a rare occurrence that it should not dictate what does and does not get changed.
If it's "so rare" then it really shouldn't matter to you, as it won't affect your gameplay whatsoever.
I personally have seen it in around a third of the matches I have played in the last month. That doesn't really qualify as "rare" to me, but if it does for you that's awesome!
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049159#Comment_4049159
You shouldn't have to watch external videos to learn a game though. Not everyone interacts with that stuff. The game needs to tell players how to play. I've learned everything in this game through experience, not CCs, and it's taken a long time just to be halfway decent. It doesn't make any sense to me that survivors especially are thrown to the wolves for a thousand or so hours. I didn'thave nearly so much to learn as killer.
I would genuinely love to see BHVR work with the partnered DBD content creators to create an actually decent in-game tutorial. There is so much to survivor gameplay that isn't even touched by the tutorial. It would be helpful if different gameplay mechanics were shown/explained in the tutorial in more depth.
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@hollyweird said:
Thats what I am wondering as well. Tunnel and slugging may not be same as breaking other ToS like cheating but devs and player base dislike it and dont want to see it. But I couldn’t find a post where devs talk about how are they going to solve the core issue to why slugging/tunneling is a valid strategy instead of hooking survivors ‘successfully’ one by one
I think the argument is less that it isn't a viable strategy (because it is) and more about not holding another player hostage. It's extremely oppressive for the other player who has to just lay there and wait to bleed out. You're punished for DCing if you don't want to participate in that, even though it is incredibly boring.
It's a multiplayer game, it's supposed to be playable for everyone, not just one side. I understand why you want to tunnel/slug to win, but it simply isn't fair to the other side who doesn't have a way to counter that built into their base kit. This argument is especially strong for slugging, as there are some protections around hook (anticamp and basekit BT). Yes, the killer is still on the survivor and they will have to strategically run in their chase to avoid death, but they still have a chance to participate in normal gameplay (running from the killer). Unfortunately, if a survivor is slugged and the killer is camping them, there's pretty much nothing they can do unless they have a certain perk equipped or their entire team comes to help (which is extremely unlikely unless the survivor has a full SWF). Camping a slugged survivor takes away their ability to participate in normal gameplay or do anything at all. This is just problematic from a QOL point of view. All 5 players who queue into a match should be able to participate in normal gameplay activities, not just 1 killer, not just the 4 survivors.
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@Elan said:
I'm afraid the Weaving Spider isn't the invocation that needs huge buffs. Surely it's not meta but treacherous crows is literally perk to troll team
I'd like to see treacherous crows reworked as well, but do think the suggestion on this post is interesting/worth testing out.
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@genny said:
It's an interesting idea, however selfcare is still played in solo queue, putting a condition on it would prevent it from being played solo, where it is most useful, and increasing healing speed would certainly cause balancing problems with perks that increase healing speed.
A survivor in soloq should still be participating in normal gameplay and team activities, such as healing another teammate. I don't see how adding the condition would prevent the perk from being viable in soloq. I also made a suggestion in my last comment about a balance for a potential speed boost on self heals
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049109#Comment_4049109
As I've said before, these are diet versions of failed ideas that would only be slightly less unhealthy than their PTB counterparts. Implementing any of them in any shape or form would only punish Killers for playing strategically even more than they already are.
Since this conversation regarding a shallow suggestion has resulted in you attacking me, personally, for criticizing your ideas, I am muting this discussion.
Sounds good man, sad to see you still have nothing of substance to say. I gave a detailed explanation as to why this is not true and either you didn't read it or don't have the comprehension skills to understand it. I was open to a conversation about this but you don't have any reasons why this wouldn't work or would be a bad idea so I'm having a difficult time seeing your point of view. Claiming it's a diet version of the PTBs doesn't make sense. They obviously tried to implement anti tunnel/slug for a reason, saying that they shouldn't try again in a different manner is like saying is like saying that reason no longer exists when it most definitely does.
You were incredibly rude with your response, but you can keep pretending mine was unwarranted if it helps you sleep better at night. I know you were only here to ragebait and that's fine. I hope the devs can see past your pointless comments and actually read the discussion about the post itself.
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I like the idea of adding an objective to "unlock" a self heal instead of just having it base kit soooo slow. I also don't think survivors should have to run a second perk to make the first viable (for those who want to say botany fixes this). If they made this change, I think they could also add a rule that botany doesn't help with self-heals (to appease those who think it would be too powerful for survivors to be able to heal themselves that quickly from anywhere) to help balance out the changes.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049092#Comment_4049092
Criticizing your ideas because they're merely copies of failed ones from prior PTBs is rude? Did you make this post just to have an echo chamber?
I was trying to have a discussion where you actually say something to back up yout point so I can understand your POV but you are refusing to participate in said discussion. I've explained multiple times that comparing this to past PTBs is comparing apples to oranges. You have yet to explain your own logic other than just "the PTB!!" when I've already explained how that logic doesn't make sense.
- Comparing an anticamp timer on a slug to the previous 90 seconds of slugging giving you a permanant self recovery doesn't make sense, as the entire mechanic is different and it adds rules that protect the killer. It is also entirely different than the 120 second version with the buff for multiple downed survivors. Anticamp on hook works. Being in the dying state should not put a survivor in a worse position than being on the hook. That is literally rewarding killers for not participating in normal gameplay. If the killer doesn't want to pick a survivor up, it should be for reasons other than to avoid anticamp on a hook.
- This was only in 9.2.0, which had a ton of incredibly broken things added to the mix. We have yet to see what simply taking away the notification would do. If the killer doesn't detect a survivor approaching the hook, they should not be rewarded with free information. The survivor could do everything right in this situation and still get tunneled because the killer knows the instant they are unhooked, even if they aren't aware enough to see the unhook themselves.
- Entirely different from the 9.2.0 PTB l, which masked the HUD entirely for the killer. This is a few second grace period to give the unhooked survivor a chance to get somewhere safe.
Clearly, these are not the same as the PTBs. Hence why I'm making the argument that your argument has no substance to it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049089#Comment_4049089
That's not an ad hominem attack.
It was still rude. Respectfully, get off my post if you aren't going to contribute to the actual discussion. Thanks!
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048893#Comment_4048893
Your ideas and responses aren't substantial enough to warrant anything longer.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049078#Comment_4049078
You said that I insulted you but have yet to provide any examples, which leads me to the conclusion that you don't match energy; this just is your energy.
It's literally right there in your comment. You were rude first. You can think what you want of me and that doesn't make it true. On a real note, you clearly don't have anything useful to add to this discussion so I will no longer be replying to you.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049066#Comment_4049066
I have not attacked you in an ad hominem manner. You are making stuff up to justify your own antagonism.
i respectfully asked for you to expand on your argument because "the PTBs!!! waaaah!" is a really bad one. You were rude in response, so I matched your energy. That's on you <3
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048900#Comment_4048900
These ideas are terrible for all reasons that have been discussed thousands of times already, there really isnt any need to bother getting into a pointless argument over the same thing again and again, especially if you're gonna get defensive and start insulting people, at which point you're the one trying to ragebait and you have lost your credibility in any discussion so why take you seriously anymore?
But hey im sure you're okay with gutting survivor tools, information and strategies just as much right?
a ton of survivor tools already have been gutted and i'm fine with it. not sure where you are getting this idea from. these suggestions are extremely mild compared to what we have seen in the PTBs, yet you are saying those are the argument to why these won't work. you're comparing apples to oranges and acting like it makes sense.
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@XDgamer018 said:
so lets break it down one by one
#1 why should the killer be punished for using altruism? and what if the survivor is under a pallet or the other survivors have flashies toolboxes etc? are killer just supposed to give them the free pickup?
#2 Why remove critical information from the killer? (then we should also removve survivors being downed on their HUD etc)
#3 Again why remove critical information#1 you are failing to understand the root of the problem here, which is entirely blocking another player from participating in normal gameplay. it is extremely unfun to lay on the ground bleeding out for an entire match because your team is unabale to get you. they added anti camp on the hooks for the exact same reason, so someone isnt trapped there the entire game. i'm not saying that once this camp meter fills they can pick themselves up for free for the rest of the match, but each instance should have an anticamp timer, similar to the hooks. its a very simple concept with a mechanic that is already in the gamr and works.
#2 this isnt removing critical information, this is deterring people from instantly returning to the hook and going after the unhooked survivor, for the sane reasons stated previously.
#3 i'm not saying to remove it, simply add a couple of seconds of delay. i'd be fine with it on the survivor side too. the only argument against this is that this will only really affect soloq players, which is biggest player base struggling with the killer "strategy" of BMing another human and refusing them to participate in the game.
while i understand the sluggling and camping strategy and why it works, the reason for these change of mechanics is for the health of the game. all 5 people who queue into a match should be able to participate in normal gameplay. the first person to get downed shouldn't just be put to an instant death sentence (which is what that is when you are soloq) when you are meant to have 2 hook states before you die.
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@brewingtea said:
They already have a "beam of light" associated with maps. Just make that basekit and allow it to be applied to props like totems, gens, etc.
This is a wonderful idea and would add so much communication without adding words for soloq and even duoq
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048891#Comment_4048891
My argument is those PTBs. You don't get to just discredit all that proof because you don't like to be reminded of the failures of these ideas.
You've literally got zero words of your own? Lol okay.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048888#Comment_4048888
All you've done is introduce diet versions of those ideas. This time around, they'll only be slightly less unhealthy.
You have yet to make an argument to why any of these ideas wouldn't work. I assume your concern is mainly the first suggestion. How I see it, anti camp is anti camp lol. It shouldn't matter if a survivor is dying on the ground or dying on the hook. It would be the exact same mechanic, different location. This seems pretty reasonable to me. Changes slugging from "oh I'm going to ruin one survivor's game by putting them in the dying state and using them to bait their teammates or bleed to death and move to the next" to "i'm going to leave this guy here because i know his whole crew has flashies and i'm going to go kick a gen and do my other objectives"
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@[Deleted User] said:
These ideas have all been tried out on PTBs in some shape or form and have all failed. Playing strategically needs to stop being punished and instead get expanded into new horizons.
This statement simply isn't true. The PTBs had much more extreme anti tunnel and slug rules (such as survivors being able to pick themselves up) that made those iterations fail.