Artimenius1307
Artimenius1307
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118938#Comment_4118938
Again no that's just not how the game works. It's much harder for survivors to get progress on the last gen because it's the last gen. The killer only has three places to protect and thus it's much easier to interrupt and stop survivors on gens. Likewise resources are going to be depleted and make it much harder for survivors to do the final gen safely. Finally if you do tunnel it requires almost perfect teamwork from the survivors to do. The last generator matters far more because of this and any gen regression or slowdown matters far more.
Agree to disagree then
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118899#Comment_4118899
… No, regression on the last generators matter far more than the first few. The only generator that matters is the last one and by making the last one or few harder to get through that provides far more value than slowing down the first few generators. I am sorry if this sounds patronizing but this is rudimentary gameplay flow that you should understand if you want to look knowledgeable.
Partially, you are correct. Last gen is the highest stakes state of the game and thus feels much more important in terms of defending.
However, you are wrong in thinking this is related to current discussion of pain res. The 18s of regression pain res provides are absolutely equal whether used at 5 gens or 1 gen. The 18s at 5 gens might as well be "18 seconds before survivors move to the crucial last gen".
And the bigger factor, is that it's not last gen that gives pain res bigger value. It's the 1v3 condition which gives it bigger value. But even still, ANY regression perk gets much bigger value in 1v3 scenario, this is not pain res exclusive. So it's not the design of the perk, it's the wide gap of 1v4 and 1v3.
As I said before, don't nerf the perk because it helps unhealthiest strategy, nerf the strategy itself or buff the healthiest one, spreading hooks.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118688#Comment_4118688
The point is to discourage tunneling one survivor until they are dead. Which the perk in it's current state does nothing to actually encourage and since it gets stronger the longer the game goes on it's incentivizing people to hard tunnel.
Yeah no. Current design neither encourages nor discourages tunneling/not tunneling. It's a simple gen regression perk. Disabling it after someone dies simply will, as I said before, make people replace it with another perk. This is not a solution to the tunneling, this is a suggestion to nerf perk instead of addressing the core issue. Do you really think nerfing pain res this way will affect tunneling in the slightest?
What really doesn't encourage not tunneling, is the game itself like lmao can we start suggesting actual benefits for spreading hooks? Right now there are none of them, spreading hooks, the healthiest strategy for the game, is also the worst one for killers to use
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@dadamek8 said:
The whole idea of Pain Resonance is to reward the killer for hooking multiple survivors instead of tunneling, but a lot of killers get the first regression for free, tunnel that survivor and then it's almost impossible to win for the other survivors when there are 2-3 gens left and the killer can activate Pain Res 3 times (and probably some other perks like Pop or Eruption)
There is a more elegant way to do this, instead of disabling it completely, which I feel is a bad design choice for any of the perk to do to deny their full potential.
Just make it "When you hook a survivor on Scourge Hook first time, for every survivor alive generator with highest progress loses 3/4/5% of total progress". This way pain resonances will be 20% while all survivors are alive, but 15% if one got killed. 15% of a generator is 13,5s, instead of 18, which is a big difference already.
Straight up disabling it after kill will just make people replace it with another perk, and what then? Make them disable after kill too? Repeat until all of them are disabled?
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@esarraf said:
The point is it's extremely popular and more fun than the regular game mode as proven by the extreme spike in players whenever it's active.
Current 2v8, steam charts show exactly the same amount, with barely any difference. Funny thing, you might not even be wrong, some players could be due to 2v8, but at the same time, equal amount could be due to dropping dbd because of 2v8.
I myself do not enjoy the game anymore, and only come back for chaos shuffle and 2v8, but this time, I don't want to play 2v8 in the slightest, there is barely any new stuff, and the few games I played seem to be affected by recent mmr changes. I am facing such absolute potatoes, that games are simply too easy. I do not enjoy facing players who barely put up a fight
In the end, I fail to see how popularity is still the main reason to bring back 2v8. Steam charts show that's not the case anymore. Fun is subjective though, I find 2v8 to be braindead and unfun for both sides, but that's just me
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116582#Comment_4116582
if you play the other games you can't resurrect them, nor should you force them to stay
More like there is more incentive to stay to interact with this secondary objective to save those sacrificed with the killer having a chance to confirm more kills with this greed.
Also lets not just go SWF this SWF that, coz everything is better with SWF lmaoIf can't resurrect if people left then I guess, but this way it sounds like simply a messy kind of system, a too complex one as a solution to hard tunneling.
As for swf, it is not an argument of being better in swf hands, it's an argument of it working ONLY in swf hands, and devs don't want to make the gap between swf and solo even larger. Why would anyone bother resurrecting a random Meg who can't run killer for long or doesn't do gens?
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
Playing killer clowns and Halloween recent years has made me think that death shouldn't be the end for players in a trial, giving them ways to interact with the match would prove beneficial for the games health, albeit optional.
If a tunneling killer manages to get their way, what if invocations were a baseline mechanic that with the right item and setup could bring back a survivor on death hook. A tunable time-sync mechanic which could turn the tides of what would seem to be a hopeless game.
The resource would be limited maybe augmentable with perks, to give survivors another chance against oppressive odds.
I know dbd players are adverse to change, but I'd love to be able to help people I meet on the fog have another chance and I feel it would get people to possibly even stop giving up so early in if they know there is a way to help others still/have a comeback.
it might not be a perfect idea, but I feel it's a way to not take away killer agency all the while needing a time commitment to save someone. <3The issue with this idea is outside of balance. What if a person leaves? Will you resurrect bot then? And to fix that, would it be required to force people to stay somehow? I can say with full confidence that won't be a good idea.
In short, probably too much for swf teams, does nothing for solo, not a good option
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@Arcturus said:
TLDR: Invoking Salt is not that interesting after a few games and is an active waste of time and puts every survivor in it at huge risk. The quests requiring survivors to play 2v8 to complete them are ridiculous and probably were made to make survivors play even if it isn't fun. Basically the only draw to the game mode is playing killer with a friend, which does nothing for survivor players.
With the new iteration of 2v8, the devs attempted once again to try and attract survivors to 2v8 with the Invoking Salt. This is a somewhat interesting mechanic, at least the first couple times, until you realize it's a deathtrap and a huge time waste:
In order to actually get decent value out of the salt, it needs to be used while you have zero hooks, since half the value comes from unlocking your ability that you would otherwise need to be hooked for. However, if you do this, then every time a generator gets popped during this period of potentially up to 40s, your aura is read by both the killers while you are extremely vulnerable. The animation to get off the Invocation is extremely slow, and especially against a stealth or Undetectable (Shadow) killer that sneaks up, or a movement killer like Blight or Oni that can close the distance before the animation can even end, that can make all the difference for if you can get up in time. In addition, the 5% haste (which obviously goes down by 1% every minute, becoming even less useful over time) is not even that good in a 2v8 environment. 9/10 of my chases have not ended in a 1v1, but whenever the killer decides he's gotten tired and calls his buddy over, in which case 5% means nothing.
This is not even taking into account the difficulty of finding the salt in the first place. Even while running Scout and opening 10-15 chests a match, it is not uncommon to still not get a single Invoking Salt, and even with a key that is a ton more time wasted. The devs must have realized the Invoking Salt was not interesting or valuable enough to actually lower killer queue times by getting more survivors in 2v8, as they made getting Invoking Salt mandatory to complete the 2v8 quests. While the one killer-only quest can be done in either 2v8 or 1v4, both survivor quests are only achievable in 2v8 because both require Invoking Salts. One of these is to simply complete 3 rituals. It's not too hard, but according to some people I know it seems bugged and may take 5 or so attempts instead. The second quest is ridiculous. "Place 10 Invoking Salts." I ran Scout only, opening 10-15 (sometimes more) chests every single game for 2 hours straight and I am still only at 6. If not for this quest, I would have played maybe 3 games or so of survivor to see the Invocation and that's it. But because I want to complete the quest, partially because I have run out of Tome challenges to do, I have spent a lot more than that. Not because the gamemode is fun or that I want to, but simply because the quest I want to complete requires it.
2v8 fundamentally will never be fun for survivor unless you have a big group of friends. If you are the rare group of people that is able to get a ton of people on all at the same time and pretty much fill out a 2v8 lobby, good for you. However, the majority of people are not that. And so 99% of the attraction to this gamemode is the fact that you can play killer with your friend. That's genuinely cool, I think it's awesome to be able to experience the solo side of DBD with a friend, but that gives nothing to survivors. Chase is the most fun part of DBD, and you could argue that 2 killers on one map means even if they end up switching targets a few seconds in, you're twice as likely to get chased. But like I said earlier, almost all of my chases end whenever the 2nd killer decides to come over and then the chase is done no matter what I do. It's not exactly fun to know you are doing a great job running the killer and then you die because you got double tapped by 2 killers. I recently also went against a Ghost Face (very rare in the matches I've gotten) and I didn't realize he not only exposes you for his own attacks, but for his teammate as well. So this Ghost Face went around Exposing a bunch of people while his Wraith came up behind them invisible and smacked them down in one shot. No hate to the killers for working together, like of course they are. It's just not fun at all.
This isn't even a balance complaint, I'm not even sure which side this mode favors. I escape a decent amount of times, but even when I do it's not particularly interesting or exciting. In the games where it's a killer victory, it just ends up where the last several people are usually just getting cleaned up by both the killers walking around together double teaming them within 15 seconds because now they can afford to. Not exactly a satisfying way to end your game.
Someone on the forums recently brought back up 5v5, which was one of the modes we were allowed to vote on years ago. I'd still love to see this mode made, I think depending on how it's implemented it could also help a bit with the "us vs them" mentality, and I've even heard people talk about how it could work as a ranked mode. Personally I have reservations about a ranked mode mostly because I don't know what kind of rules would even be in place, or if BHVR can even pull off a decent ranked MMR system, but either way. As of now most of the people playing survivor in 2v8 are probably just playing while they wait to play killer. I for one am going to finish this awful quest and probably leave this mode to collect dust for the next couple weeks.
Fundamentally survivor side is barely any fun because it's been boosted to such a degree that it simply can't be fun due to being non-challenging.
What's the survivor gameplay? First of all, doing gens. It's never been a fun mechanic, it's essential but it's not top tier fun. They 100% could experiment with how generators are repaired, maybe something with extra details, or skill checks, etc.
Second part of survivor gameplay, getting chased. I would argue in 2v8 chase is absolutely dogshit. Reason being, if you are being chased by a solo killer, you can run them for eternity. The pallets are too numerous and too safe to die quickly if you use them properly. But if you are getting chased by 2 killers? Then it's the opposite side of the coin, what you do as a survivor does not matter, you will get down because the game was never meant to be 1v2. In my view, the abundant amount of pallets but only encourages the braindead 1v2 chases.
Lastly, part of survivor gameplay is macro. That's absent from 2v8 entirely. You don't need to save resources, or track where killer is, or which gens are done, just go with the flow. It's empty, there is no complexity.
Personally, I do like playing as survivor in 2v8, but it's sort of "I can just do whatever I want, other 7 should handle rest", but that's empty fun. I don't feel any actual thrill from looping killers, saving with flashlight, escaping or dying, and this iteration with even bigger boost to survivor side, I actually don't even want to return to this game to play the mode, and I always did for 2v8s when they arrived. It's probably because this time I finally gave up on it, devs don't change the mode, they keep boosting survivor side, it doesn't work and doesn't bring new survivor players, and they keep doing it again.
On a side note, what the hell happened with 2v8 players? I know it's mostly casual players, but this time a bit too special, so many of them, including killers now, who don't do basic stuff, feel like they are playing while sleep deprived and not eating whole day, functioning at last 1% of their capacity
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I don't like this at all as it'd basically be punishing survivors for just doing what they're supposed to do.
I think as a whole we need to stop adding perks that punish either side for doing their objective. Kinda like how Fast Track punished killers too much for hooking, this would be exactly the same thing
Yes and no to be honest.
While yes, the design is similar to fast track as in the side is punished for doing their objective, there is a rather big gap in how it would work in comparison.
For Fast Track, it was hooking, which is unavoidable unless slugging. If you brought a hooking related perk, slugging wasn't really a good option. The killer was also not notified at all whether or not Fast Track is in play, so can't even determine whether playing around it was required.
For Undone, it would be hitting great skillchecks over good ones. While you do lose the extra progress, you could counter the perk by hitting good skillchecks only. Additionally, if a killer hits a gen and it becomes blocked, it's a visual tell that the killer has Undone. Extra note, while the gen is blocked, it is not regressing, so while you could defend a hot generator and commit to chase by knowing that it can't be repaired, it is not the best choice of a perk for passive defense of generators.
Tldr, Fast Track was imbalanced because it was pure positive without any negative by doing nothing, Undone would be somewhat positive with somewhat negative by doing nothing
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@Weepeme said:
Instead of going off when you stop healing, it should be like "we'll make it" perk, which it has a timer after you activate it, like this it would be more useful.
Road life for sure could use a buff, but honestly I think even like that it will still remain bad, because main drawback is the condition under which you get the tokens, being injured as a requirement means you will have a big delay before you get to the situation in which you can freely gather stacks
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@Mentally_Mechanical said:
Undone is, as we all know, not a good perk. While the actual effect is nice, up to 30% generator damage on kick followed by 30 seconds of that gen being blocked, the requirement of missed skill checks makes it completely useless.
The solution, I feel, is simple: change Undone to gain tokens through great skill checks. This would do several things:
- Be more consistent to obtain
- Not punish newer survivors more, aka not so much a "win more" perk
- Act as a healthier method of gen regression, as its strength is proportional to the survivors' ability to hit skill checks
- Fit the theme more—you are Undoing their progress
You could also decrease the amount of tokens gained per skill check from 3 to 2, since greats are far more common than misses.
There are numerous suggestions which propose exactly that, to switch it from failed to great skillchecks, sadly, no action from devs yet
Also whoever is downvoting is a psycho
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@khalee4all said:
My husband and I had just gotten back into playing the game a lot and were having a ton of fun — until the new Killer came out.
We were excited to try him. Then we played our first match.
This Killer genuinely makes the game feel like a completely different game. You can’t loop him properly, you can’t flashlight save, hook-related perks become basically useless, and doing gens feels impossible because of his insane map control combined with four aura-reading perks.
And yes, that includes his own perk, which lets him see Survivors’ auras within 40 meters.
Meanwhile, the only Survivor perk that can hide your aura within 40 meters only works after two Survivors have already died.
How are we supposed to play against a Killer who can see every Survivor basically all the time when Survivors have no reliable way to counter it?
What I find especially weird is that the Survivor released alongside him doesn't have a single aura-hiding perk. It honestly makes me feel like the team didn't really consider how this Killer would interact with the Survivor side of the game, or how existing Survivor mechanics could have been used to give us some actual counterplay.
I don't mind strong Killers. I don't mind learning new counterplay. That's part of the game.
But there needs to be counterplay.
Right now, playing against this Killer doesn't feel difficult or challenging. It just feels pointless. So much of what Survivors normally use to outplay a Killer simply doesn't work against him.
We were having a lot of fun before this Killer was released, but after playing against him, we've completely lost the motivation to play.
So yeah, we're probably done for now.
"We were excited to try him. Then we played our first match"
I would like to clarify, was this entire post made after a singular game against Judgement? Because if yes, why did you bother making it? You are objectively not going to perfectly learn playing against a killer right away after only 1 game, so the entire post is redundant
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@pidgeon said:
The anti-tunnel and anti-slug PTB were both completely scrapped due to how easy it was to purposefully use against the killer even when they weren't going out of their way to tunnel and/or slug survivors. So is there any way to punish this without it being super overpowered? My only suggestion would be something like:
- New Status Effect: Incorporeal | After the survivor is unhooked they cannot be interacted with by the killer for X seconds this effect ends if they use a conspicuous action. (Possibly gain temporary invisibility)
It's not as complex of a problem to solve tunneling really, bhvr just didn't really do it with the anti tunnel PTB. That PTB pretty much obliterated the strategy as a whole without understanding or covering any nuance.
What should've been in detail: Separate tunneling in 2, hard tunneling, and soft tunneling. Hard tunneling: 5 gens still left, going straight for the kill. Soft tunneling: A tunnel after 2nd hook at any point in the game, after multiple other hooks were made (so basically you got like 5 hooks, then decide to tunnel death hook survivor out cuz you low on gens or they are in a dead zone whatever.).
Now, does hard tunneling need a change? I would say absolutely yes, it's unhealthy for the game, so it should probably be reduced in how good it is. How to do it? I would say, make first 3 unhooks of the game special, like give the survivors the Incorporeal you suggested. Just to make it harder to get them. I personally thought of shorter endurance unless basement hook, but much bigger Haste with larger duration, so that the priority would be to get away instead of bodyblocking.
Now, does soft tunneling need a change? I would say that no, there are certain moments in the game where killer has to hook, or the game would be lost for them, especially at lower count of generators remaining.
In that PTB, both of these were practically destroyed, which is just horrible way of doing any game design really. They could revisit it, but judging by the second PTB they did after that original one, I don't think they will suddenly understand how to do it this time
Side note: I would personally prefer a nerf to hard tunneling coming together with the Hook spread buff, so that this strategy, which is non-benefitial at this moment would see more play
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@Mandy said:
Will just post our response to the debate here for clarity.
Last Friday, during the Chorus of Sin Discord Stage a spur of the moment joke was made about Streamers looking at their chat. We understand that this caused frustration and while we never intended for this joke to be the focal point of the Divine Light change, we'd love to give a little more context behind our thought process and ultimately, share an update on the visual indicator we had mentioned..
What we should have, and failed to mention clearly, is that the changes were there to assist with accessibility giving a short visual warning to Survivors that they are being sniped, due to the speed of the Divine Light and its ability to travel through walls. This is not something that will be happening at release however, we will be monitoring the need for it closely before proceeding, in the event that the increased aura reveal range on Divine Light is not enough.
Chorus of Sin releases tomorrow and we will be monitoring the reception, and we hope you enjoy the first Community Chapter!
Could this "Joke" be used more often actually? Like, legit, tell us straight the logic behind any kind of change you do, what waw the thought process behind it, what's the aim. I, for one, legit believed that the reasoning was to counter Hex totems, and in a rather classic move, this change would miss it by a mile. I also wholeheartedly believed, that such change aiming to counter Hex builds on judgement was the worst kind of decision to make, and it had poor logic. But then the actual reason was said, and I was honestly amazed, because I was proven wrong twice, the reason was different AND it was worse.
I know yes satire can be annoying but I am actually dead serious about sharing more in detail what kind of decision making and goal was used for certain changes which are pretty impactful for Killers/Game modes etc etc. I feel like this would greatly improved the feedback from the community to the devs
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109936#Comment_4109936
Even if you want to throw away the argument for solo queue (which I still think is completely valid), that was only one of the issues with it that I mentioned. The perk is too powerful for its purpose, where it is more powerful than most Hex perks while simultaneously guaranteeing way more value, if they're all cleansed it probably ends up being more than a minute of survivor's time, and if they aren't cleansed then you have a permanent 20-26% decreased repair speed for the rest of the match. The survivors are forced into a huge lose-lose scenario when Pentis are up, and they are also actively punished from the beginning for doing the only counterplay for Hex perks. The time sunk into cleansing Penti's could be even more if it's a build with Thrill and the survivors have not found it.
If solo que is the main argument, then yes, it should be thrown away, solo que suffers from a lot of things, because solo que itself is a nightmare, not the perks. Prime example of consequences of using solo que logic: Knock out. It was sheit vs swf, strong vs solo que. Now it's just sheit.
Pentimento's effect is powerful, I can't disagree with that, but there is nuance: it is physically impossible to use this perk until at least one totem is cleansed. You might get your first cleansed totem after first 2 gens are already done, and then it's effect no longer as good.
On the other hand, the build that must accommodate Penti. Option A, Plaything for extra hexes. Those can be ignored by survivors, as usually paying extra attention will prevent Oblivious from being too good. And even then, they should know the location of the Plaything they cleansed. Option B, 3 other Hex totems without Plaything. In this scenario, Penti at most should proc 3 times. And even then, if one of the 3 is a defense totem like Toth, then survivors might get lucky and not cleanse it as last one, so only 2 pentis in that case.
And tbh I once again find Aven_Fallen suggestion to work better as a supposed nerf to Pentimento, that Rekindled totems are their own thing and aren't affected by Toth. (And for fairness, they probably shouldn't be affected by something like Counterforce as well)
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@Arcturus said:
The current Penti is a bit more manageable than old Penti, which would flat out slow down repair speed by 30% with one totem without having any aura reading to find where it is, but current Penti is still problematic and too strong for its conditions.
The aura reading mitigates it somewhat, but this adversely affects solo queue survivors, as they will have more difficulty finding totems cleansed by other survivors. In addition, it just punishes niche survivor builds made around the idea of cleansing totems, such as Inner Strength and Overzealous.
Penti is something that can be applied to up 3 different totems, 4 if you run Plaything and survivors are dumb enough to keep cleansing. Yet despite that, just one of its totems is more effective than its most comparable Hex, Wretched Fate, as although it is 20% instead of 30%, it applies to all survivors instead of just one and also applies to healing.
And this is supposed to be a perk that sort of compensates you for losing your other Hex perks, but its effect is stronger than most Hex perks in the first place. Even if, let's say you set up 3 Pentis on your way to generators or survivors around the map throughout the game, and the survivors are on comms so they are able to retrace their steps and cleanse the totems pretty quickly, that's half a gen worth of time just recleansing totems they already cleansed, + however much time they took running across half the map to get to them. This doesn't even include that it probably wastes multiple survivor's time which is more beneficial.
Even though this perks design is terrible to begin with, the simplest solution is to make it weak enough that its a valid decision to just work on gens through it. If one totem was something like 12%, depending on the amount of gens left survivors could cleanse it or push through it more easily without a huge lose-lose as it is now. The other possibility is making it scale so that survivors may be able to ignore one totem, but not two or three (such as scaling from 8% and increasing by 8% for each totem so that survivors can cleanse one or two totems but leave one if they don't know where to find it.)
Solo que should not be an argument to nerf any kind of perk/addon/killer unless they are top tier already. If you apply "Solo que gets stomped by this so it should be nerfed" then pretty much 90% of killer side should be nerfed.
If anything, this should be used as an argument to provide better info for said solo que, which is coming in a form of an emote wheel at least.
And even then, at which point solo que can be excused? Survivors still get notified if someone cleanses a totem, and they should pay attention to their approximate location, especially if shortly after they cleanse the hex, they get chased (Wherever killer now is was the location of a hex). Needless to say, the one who cleansed hex has the info on the totem location and should prioritize it if penti's in play
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I would really love to know, whether or not this change to see the beam was made explicitly with hex totems in mind. Because if it was, holy the miss into a kilometer long football gates. It won't do anything to a hex totems build Judgement, you will see the beam in advance yes, but you still have to stop cleansing hex totems, or you get hit
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
Before his rework I feel he was in a good place where people liked him, current Myers isn't super fun to face coz of how easy he is to control and shred pallets with.
Is there any intention to revert or balance him? He used to be a killer I really was excited to play against, now he is kind of… jank and wierd.
Not the most helpful feedback but my friends who mained him are upset he is changed, and quite frankly I loved the rework before the turn changes, but I also really miss old myers.No, and expect other killers to get similar changes in the future, to bring them more to the current level of game. Trapper will be able to dash with his trap open, and if it lands it will down survivor right away, or break a pallet. xdd
I mean this is a joke, but I am afraid it's not far from truth. It can't be denied, Myers is much stronger than before, but now it's not only playing against him, it's also playing him that became a boring bulldozer simulator
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109627#Comment_4109627
I still think the core issue is Snug pulling to his grab spot instead of the Houndmaster.
On release/PTB he pulled to where you cast him from, which caused the pallet problem. The fix for that went too far the other way: now he pulls to the grab spot, which just means he’s constantly getting stunned at pallets and it feels awful on both sides.
Ideally he should pull directly to the Houndmaster’s current position, with slightly increased pull strength so you can actually secure value without needing a perfect setup or eating a pallet every time. That keeps him a real threat without turning him into another release Krasue 2.0.We also can’t compare Krasue to Houndmaster. There are too many differences in their designs..although I hear you. I would like to stay on topic.
Hmmm, I tried to imagine Snug pulling towards Hiundmaster, and tbh I couldn't quite imagine what would be the difference, wouldn't it still be pretty much the same thing, and he will still be counterable by standing in the pallet if Houndmasters begins whistling?
And by comparing her to release Krasue, I didn't mean design ofc, I simply meant that, if she is buffed a bit too much, she will end up like release Krasue, who always won in looping no matter what survivor did.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109580#Comment_4109580
For me personally, that’s why I think she could really benefit from a stronger pull on the dog so he also pulls back to her. It’ll help reduce frustrations significantly while, still keep a healthy counter play.
Probably yes, but that's a sketchy road too. Currently, outside of pallet camping, Snug is a legit threat, with low cool down and all of that. Landing him isn't guaranteed, but if you do land, the hit is 200% extra guaranteed, because Snug holds survivor for enough time to catch up, break a pallet, make tea, have kids, and then hit the captured survivor. It's gotta be done carefully or it might end up a release Krasue 2.0
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
Lots of things are annoying in this mode. Getting blastmined is annoying. Getting unhooked, only for the hillbilly that hooked you to sprint up to you 3 seconds later is annoying. Scouts with wall hacks are annoying. Oni is annoying. Sprint burst is annoying. Queue times are annoying. Other random team members are annoying. Gen speeds are annoying.Pallet density is annoying. Constantly having your aura revealed is annoying…
One thing I really think they should do is adjust the comeback mechanic so that repair speed does not increase per hook, but per death. A healthy survivor with no hook states can repair generators just as fast as an injured survivor on death hook.
The comeback mechanic working via hooks instead of deaths is ironic, bhvr is trying really hard to discourage tunneling, but this comeback mechanic encourages tunneling very much, which I find to be the funniest joke
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109561#Comment_4109561
Are you sure she is "one of the weakest killers in the game"?, in many tier lists she is A and when playing her she seems to be very strong with a great chase power as well as mobility (tho locking the search command on a gen is very hard sometimes) and she is definitely stronger than majority of B tier killers like wraith or Chucky.
Dog is very easy to dodge and redirecting mostly hinders than help.
Projectiles are supposed to possible to dodge like that's where you need skill, you should be skilled enough to hit the survivors with the first dash and redirecting.
Ig pallets are the only counter to houndmaster and they were not that hard to deal with personally like you can send the dog over the pallet then redirect to hit the survivor (which you should be skilled enough to hit) and you have enough time to break the pallet and M1 them like camp them until you get your dog back, the cooldown is not that long.
I just think you underrating her A LOT, if pallets are really that big issue for you then use perks that help against pallets like brutal strength to break them quicker.
Elan's right though, pallets that aren't dropped yet make Snug completely useless. From personal experience, if you hear her whistle and you are in the pallet, just stand in the middle of pallet. If she sends the dog, drop the pallets, dog is now gone, and there is a pallet between her and you. If she doesn't, the cancel is pretty hefty, you might even do another loop if the tile is not too long. And even if you stay in pallet, you can now drop it, and go to another loop, unless she stays in said loop without breaking the pallet.
Unsafe pallets aren't as safe to just drop the pallet, but you can still somewhat drag the snug in a way where you are still in the middle of the pallet and can drop it any time (I mean it's Snug, he is notorious for being buggy, especially when he is dragging survivors)
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@chaosdragon_25 said:
I think the Knight needs a small buff for his Guards. He isn't a great killer, and there is counterplay—like touching windows and pallets without vaulting them—but lately, I keep seeing survivors running in a straight line without using that tactic and still not getting caught. Even the Assassin often fails to catch them. And if you don't want the Guard and the Knight both chasing the same survivor, the Guards really need a small buff, because playing against good survivors is getting really frustrating.
He was nerfed quite a while ago, but he was good before that—though still not an S-tier or even A-tier killer; he was in a solid spot. That’s why, to this day, I’ve never understood why he kept getting nerfed again and again after the rework.If Knight uses a guard to chase survivor but then the knight himself goes to do other things, then the sole purpose of that guard is not to get the hit, but to waste survivor's time. Suggesting to make guard hits be more likely to happen isn't a good one, as the action of being chased by a guard isn't the most fun thing ever.
With current Knight design, there is just no wiggle room really. He is good at macro, but his macro is very simple, and therefore boring. Basically his entire looping gameplay is: Spam a Guard -> Guard chases -> Chase with guard via different path -> get the hit -> repeat.
Macro is a bit more interesting, as it's at least where choice is made, and survivors can in theory, outplay it by hiding behind objects (Ignoring the whacky ways Guards can sometimes still see you through said object regardless).
Imo, only a rework which would make the killer much more complex would make it a possibly fun to face killer, and maybe even more fun to play as.
Personally, I enjoy knight, but that is entirely because I got the medieval kid in me being very fond of Knights and all about them. His gameplay however, I can't take more than 1-2 games at most before switching to another killer. I would love a macro heavy Knight, where you really have to think hard to get good payoff, and naturally, the payoff being worth it
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You really don't like killer side of the game, do you?
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109171#Comment_4109171
I tend to disagree, although the most obvious game mechanics are affected by things like medkits and toolboxes, the fog vial isn’t necessarily based on a game mechanic, it’s essentially just a smoke bomb. I think looking at different, more unique ways we could affect the game would generate fun ideas. What about an item to affect lockers? What about a noise machine? What about something to affect pallets or windows? What about traps? I think there’s a lot of potential ideas you could come up with, especially if you think outside the box
There is a lot of potential, that is true, but even then, all ideas that you listed, while fun, will most likely end up being used as often as current maps/keys. It's just way too hard to dethrone the kings of items, those being Medkit and Toolbox, since the meta all being about pressure, naturally means that items that are most anti pressure, are the most valuable ones.
I really want new items, and screw it even if they aren't as good, but I am afraid that even if they are added, they will quickly fade away, they will remain a niche funny item to be used and get some value sometime, and that's honestly not too bad.
I also kinda agree with @Aven_Fallen about it ending up a big blood web clutter, while I also agree with you that it is solvable, but that's dbd we are talking about, an addon/offering revision ain't coming soon, and definitely not with new items, if those were to come
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Tbh, while I completely agree with this idea, I can't quite think of any new items, which wouldn't be either useless, or much too niche to be used. The current ones already kind of cover the entirety of the game's aspects, don't they?
It's part of bigger issue of stagnation of dbd mechanics wise, it's same after 10 years, and it's pretty hard to add something as big as an item with it's own unique mechanic, when it pretty much can't cover anything new, and the old is already fully covered. Similar issue with perk designs, many new ones are plain useless, because they are a variation of another perk which serves same purpose.
For an idea like this, I think there might be a need for a new mechanic or new aspect to the game first, so that something more could be added to extend the complexity of said new thing
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109158#Comment_4109158
Yeah, I meant that the killer powers are enhanced for the mode, not just for Escapist. It varies wildly per match which classes are chosen by the survivors, and usually it is quite spread out - but I can understand it's frustrating if you always get 4 in the few killer games you might play. It is the most visible effect as well I guess. In the end it's a casual mode, the speed boost is just meant to be a bit of fun. Maybe they will nerf it to 2 seconds like Sprint Burst, but I don't think it's necessary.
I would be lying if I said that yes I face 4 Escapists every game. No, that's not that case, I do face them often, but not nearly every game, so yes, it's not always the class which is picked all the time.
Doesn't change the design flaw of sprint burst on demand. As you correctly stated, it is the most visual of the abilities, as Medic, the other visual ability, has a much larger cool down, so it's seen less frequently
The other issue being, the flashbacks of old Dead Hard. As a killer, you are not outplayed by skill, you are outplayed by pressing a button, and it leaves such sour aftertaste. It's made worse by the fact that it's an actual sprint burst, so the possibilities are so much larger compared to dead hard for distance.
Needless to say, the peak of frustration is when it's 4 Escapists. You are pretty much forced to always be next to your killer partner, because solo you are now powerless, every survivor you chase might be an Escapist, or have an Escapist nearby, they press button, and now even if you snuck up on them, they win the start of the chase, cuz button pressed. And you can't just leave and go find other survivors, they have Escapist too.
It's previous iteration, which was an aura sprint burst pretty much, was already strong, and then they giga buffed it more, and never did anything with it. I mean, they could at least make it 1v4 exhaustion timer, but now, it's 20 seconds, which is laughable
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@CrimsonMothKing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109125#Comment_4109125
You would still need to Kick the generator. So it wouldn't work with TBTC or Auto Regression like Ruin or Jason's addon.
Oh, right, sorry, I haven't used these perks in such a long while I totally forgot how they even work mechanic wise, you are right, this isn't as cheesy as I thought.
More proof that such an idea would be absolutely great for testing tbh, revive the dead class of perks, being more of them in theory
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109121#Comment_4109121
It might seem overpowered but I don't think it has too much influence on the match outcomes. It's the same as Sprint Burst from the normal game, it makes everyone nearby Exhausted and so if one person uses it, anyone else that has Escapist can't use it until their Exhausted is gone. Many of the killer powers are enhanced to compensate for this (like 3 bound Wesker, 3 pounce Dracula wolf) and there are also some killer classes that give Haste.
To be honest since they introduced Torchbearer that has probably reduced the number of Escapists as well.
It's not nearly the same as Sprint Burst, it's much more potent and versatile. I can describe a lot of situations in which Escapist power can be used, while basic Sprint Burst wouldn't be available, but majority of them simply come down to the fact, that the sprint burst is forced to be used upon pressing shift, and Escapist power is not. And no, many killer powers were enhanced not because of Escapist, but because everything in this mode was enhanced, which makes sense since it's 2v8
And I disagree, if anything Torchbearer would likely reduce the amount of any other class but Escapist (Especially you know the such a fun class as Engineer)
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@CrimsonMothKing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109094#Comment_4109094
I would say 30s is long enough as with this change you could theoretically have it permanently active.
Currently, when a gen is completed the perk activates, whilst active you can kick another gen and compromise it straight away.
As the function would now be more consistent and easier to achieve, you wouldn't want it to last too long as it could be chained together too easily.
Yeah tbh with some perks I can see them being rather potent, for example Hex: Ruin or TBTC (Henry's perk) for their spammability of regression, or things like Jason's addon to often proc the regression
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@HommeBizarre said:
For the love of god, I would like to understand who had the idea of countering everything. Just, BECAUSE.
Press F to escape for free.
I think it's a dead horse, Sprint Burst on demand has been this overpowered over many iterations now, unlikely they will suddenly realize that oh damn, the sprint burst on demand IS overtuned, need to nerf it to proper level.
It is indeed just old Dead Hard on steroids, I swear it makes my blood boil when I see it in 2v8, and I am very apathetic about the game at this stage
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Pyramid Head needed a buff 3 days before he was released in 2v8. It's unclear who thought that "Hmmmm his cages are pretty much basekit, his power is lower in terms of zoning cuz loops are much closer, yep, sounds good to go!" when it was obvious that he needed A LOT to compensate his power being much less relevant
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@CrimsonMothKing said:
- No longer requires the generator to be completed
- Perks activate after the compromised Gen has stopped regressing
- Reduce the duration/effects of compromised perks
- Machine Learning: 30s of 8% haste or 30s of 5% haste and undetectable.
- Help Wanted: 30s of 25% basic attack cooldown reduction
- While repairing a compromised Gen, survivors are given a visual warning
Hoooo, that's an interesting idea to tie it to regression stopping instead of gen completing, I would love to see how they would perform with a condition like that.
- No longer requires the generator to be completed
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Personally I always thought Krasue's current design is just bland and boring, it's not about power, it's about her whole gameplay loop being extremely boring. I mean, her gameplay loop is Fly in Head-> Find survivor -> Body form -> Spit-> Back to Head -> Wound&Down&Hook -> Repeat.
There is no complexity in Body form, you need it to break a pallet or to infect non-infected. There is also no complexity in her Head form, you can now dash and vault pallets/windows, woaw. There is also no complexity to her infection, I mean, it does something? No it bloody doesn't, it's a status effect with 99% purpose of enabling Head form attacks to injure, that's it.
And honestly you are suggesting to bring back release Krasue but without tunneling with these buffs. Tunneling wasn't here only issue then, it was her being uncounterable in Head form no matter what you did
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If anything, Ghoul in 2v8 would be perfect place for casual players to play against. Arguably, he will be oh so much weaker due to 500 pallets all over the map, something that Ghoul can't leap himself over easily, reducing his cutoff and vault potential.
Anyone who says Ghoul would be worse than Legion are plain false, matter of fact, Legion could run around and wound many people in a very short duration of time. Ghoul would take much more time to wound that many survivors with his power, since it can only affect one survivor at a time.
The real issue however, is that first, Ghoul's a licensed character, it will take more time to get permission for him to be added in 2v8. And second, Ghoul himself is VERY fun to play as, while also being very easy to learn. This will drastically affect que times as killers, which is already an issue since the first 2v8 iteration
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So you are suggesting, that A. Oni's power no longer one shots, and B. His power on hit drains even more. Despite the fact that currently Oni's power lasts long enough for 2-3 downs at most, and that's if you are lucky as Oni. I mean, you don't need to think more that a little to realize, that's gonna make him worse than Pyramid Head.
And it's still exactly the same counters to him as in 1v4. Do not give him first hit for free, drop the pallets if he is chasing alone you got 500 of them and they are recyclable, avoid unsafe pallets against him, give first hit to the other killer if they are chasing you both. It's not rocket science to reduce how fast Oni gets his power up, his biggest gains happen when he hits healthy survivors
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@Camophlo said:
If its the normal 1v4, lights out, my little oni or 2v8 they should let you bring offerings with limitations (not bringing map offerings in modes that have limited map choices as example). Main reason i personally don't play the modifier modes outside of not enjoying some is that they get less blood points per match due to not being able to bring cakes/streamers and the like. I would definitely play them more if I could.
Agreed, it is unclear why bp offerings aren't available to be used in any kind of mode, that would help people get rid of the infinite bp offerings in certain category, cakes, or bloody party streamers, and would help newer players get more bloodpoints. They could even skip or a do a 2 at a time offering screens for 2v8 so it doesn't take long
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Are you sure about that? Lemme shorten your suggestions
1) Survivor rather big nerf
2) Killer Obliteration nerf
3) Killer nerf
4) Killer nerf
5) Survivor buff
6) Actual good suggestion, bots are kinda special atm
7) Killer nerf
8) I didn't quite get this one, what do you even mean by pallets being disabled if killer swings? Supposedly killer nerf
9) Killer nerf
So, 1 survivor nerf, 1 buff, and 6 killer nerfs, yeah, that looks like suggestions to help both sides
P.S. Please don't tell be the game you mean is the Halloween one
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4104523#Comment_4104523
Any Lich who has at least 1hr in the game will use sphere on you. Don't make yourself believe that any magical item worths.
Eeeeh, that doesn't change much, even if he uses sphere, the time it takes to get an item passing by a chest is a single second, that's no time at all. Besides, one of the items will showcase the sphere either way. You make it sound like it takes a minute to get the items, when in reality it's barely 10 second (unless of course you are going out of your way to get the better items which does waste a lot of time but who does that?)
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If this is a vent post like you said, alright, vented.
Don't claim that whatever you wrote is truth however, it's far from it, written under the effect of frustration after facing a troll nurse
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@SpyUA said:
You lost to one good nurse player, like there's still counter to nurse so no offence but idk if I can believe your SFW "very skilled", maybe not against nurse at least also if you don't like tunneling so much then use shoulder the burden in your SWF, it's so strong against tunneling.
Nurse is by far the strongest killer in the game and for many other killers it's a much different situation from her, you are not winning perk less on someone like nemesis against a good SWF cuz of the lack of mobility he has as an example, if this won't convince you that killers do need perks to stand a chance then tell me how would you win on perk less hag.
Survivors got many buffs so they arguably strongest they have ever been, like there's has never been that many pallets on the maps (cuz of pallet density update) and if you pre-drop every pallet many killers are unable to do much against them and also base kit BT getting buffed to 15 seconds and also buffed later to have elusive (instead of the 5 seconds), elusive is a broken status effect (can do everything other perks do like iron will but with one status effect).
Oh no, there were many more pallets once, current pallet density still pales in comparison to 2016 dbd
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@Elan said:
Tips are just ignore his chests and never crouch a skulls in a loop if you don't have a few meters distance.
People looting his chests wasting so much time just to find a single usefull anti-mage hand item that is still disabled by a sphere.
Please just ignore his chests they are not worth your time at all.
What is this Lich propaganda KEKW
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@Voiden said:
Allowing us to play killers and survivors in private matches will let us test killer/survivors we don't have, which will help us choose on getting or not.
That's a truth nuke right here
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@epi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103715#Comment_4103715
but the point of dbd is for perks to utilize with one another so when none of them work together im like, whats the point then? haha. that's all im saying. to me it just feels like im playing a dbd mode with no perks on. that's honestly how it feels.
The point of dbd, like any game, is to have fun. Which way you have fun is entirely subjective. Some people like randomness, some people don't, it's normal.
If you dislike chaos shuffle as it is, that's fine. Suggesting a different style for a mode is also something that's welcome, atm the only modes we have are getting repetitive, having specific builds but you get a random one as a mode does sound interesting to try at least, but that's up to bhvr
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@epi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103398#Comment_4103398
It's unplayable because nothing make sense hence why I don't see the point. Even in 'chaos' there needs to be organisation. i know, sounds contradicting but it really isn't.
If you make a game mode that doesn't relate to anything I'm questioning why do some enjoy it? I'm genuinely curious. Some ppl find loosing matches and bad teammates as unplayable and I disagree with that. I can enjoy my time even with bad teammates and if i loose (i have a bad time if they're purposely body blocking me though). So that is what i mean by unplayable.
My suggestion is to make the game mode more fun and playable base on what i think and base on some sort of structure. Not a diff mode.
right now im just unsure how ppl play this game mode. because if 3 perks dont work with each other or with my item then its an UNPLAYABLE perk. it becomes redundant, obsolete. so again, unplayable.
"Hehe funny perk I never used I will try and get value out of it" and "I know I got a mess of a build, but most likely others too so nobody brought the most potent stuff" are the 2 main reasons people like chaos shuffle
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@Guardian116 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103595#Comment_4103595
Its nerfing unfair game play as it is, he even mentioned positives and incentive for the killer which they dont deserve just for playing the game fair and not griefing survivors. There needs to be more negatives for the killers to stop that griefing, just because your mad at the world doesnt mean you should take it out on others and get them to feel like crap like you do. Thats all tunneling and slugging is about, making others feel as crappy as you do so you choose to grief other players.
Discard the belief that tunneling is griefing, this is the objective of the killer, to kill survivors and prevent them from escaping. Or do you consider doing gens griefing too?
You want less tunneling, bring more strats for the killer to use, like there used to be, before bhvr nerfed them for some reason, like hit and run, which was existing purely due to sloppy butcher, but was obliterated with sloppy butcher nerf
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103270#Comment_4103270
I think the same strategy for slugging would suffice as well. Allow survivors to recover themselves when on the ground after, say 70 seconds, after 1 person dies.
That would mean that the entire tunnelling and slugging fix would require no more complexity than:
- After 1 survivor dies, survivors gain the ability to unhook themselves during the first hook stage
- Survivors gain the ability to self recover on the ground after 70 seconds after the first survivor dies, and after 40 seconds after the second survivor dies.
This simple ruleset would solve both tunnelling and slugging for a big part as well as the infamous 2 survivor 1 slugged 4k strategy and keep the game playable even after 1 survivor dies, even at that stageOkay now that's just going too far. A change like that absolutely must come with something in return, if you wanna nerf how killers can play so severely, there must be an alternative in exchange, and just as good as the nerfed one.
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This kind of reminds me of a funny idea I had during last event, where whenever survivors would consume a morsel they would get slightly wider, so you could gorge yourself and create an absolute chonker of a survivor.
Hard to implement due to cosmetics though as stated above, the only option I see is using face really, with it either becoming bloodier and bloodier, or maybe the face itself showing more and more painful expressions depending on how many hits/hooms they took
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@Cool8324 said:
In my opinion, a way to incentivise NOT tunneling is to reward killers for fresh hooks. The rewards can’t be too little otherwise its useless and just not worth it and yes perks will have to be changed if this gets considered/added. This gives killers choice whether to go for the same unhooked survivor or go for a new one and get rewarded.
NOTE: Things can be added, subtracted, changed, etc. You are free to agree or disagree with whatever it is. THIS IS NOT OFFICIAL
For Fresh hooks (hooking a survivor for the first time):
- Gain 5/10/15% haste (depending on the killer) for x seconds and gets deactivated if they start a chase, injure/down a survivor, or use their M2
- The next time a killer kicks a gen, that gen instantly loses 10/15/20% (depending on the killer) of its current progression
- OPTIONAL: Aura read on any non death hook survivor for x seconds
- 5-10k BP (idk about the actual value)
The bonuses for fresh hooks ends if a survivor dies
Obviously S tiers will receive less of these rewards (5% haste and 10% gen kick) while trapper/ghostface etc will receive more of these benefits.
Now this guy gets it, especially with the system disabling when 1 survivor dies. A system with design like that to encourage spreading hooks is my preferred way of addressing tunneling as first step, not nerfing tunneling itself