StarLost
StarLost
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@Cassiopeiae said:
Let me fix that for you.
When are we nerfing/not doing anything on Knight and reworking Trickster?
There you go, you're welcome.
Why would you nerf Knight?
Knight sucks.
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@Ayjay said:
I sometimes get killers who refuse to kill us or end the match and I can't leave witrhout ME getting punished. I don't want to waste my time in these matches, I just want to move on and play a real match. Why am I forced to endure this?
It happens on both sides - all you can do is record and report, sadly.
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@FlameGNG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293537#Comment_3293537
Yea i dont know... Havent seen a single survivor or killer use the snowman the killers tunnel and slug more frequently i mean i havent been slugged in months (slugged as in left to bleed out*) I had it 3 times in 5 matches when the event came out. Coincidence? I think not!
Really? I see a fair few people on both sides playing around with them.
@FlameGNG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293015#Comment_3293015
slugging is going to be changed soon? ooh yea by the unbreakable basekit which is a dumb idea... I mean they could fix it by just ending the match instantly without the basekit UB... Or well let the last survivor just have a bleedout button you hold...
the "focusing one person out" isnt really needed... however its much easier. But good thing the devs nerfed DS and made the stun 3 sec so now everyone runs off the record which allows you to just hit someone straight off the hook and now off the record is useless ;)
The idea needs work, yeah. But it's definitely a move in the right direction.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294107#Comment_3294107
-"They've also conclusively said that they will never balance SWFs differently to solos"
I understand why they have decided to "balance" the game this way. It's literally about keeping the 4/5ths happy. The result is that long term killers stop playing. The game needs new people cycling in to play killer because most people either don't want to play that role or can't play it well.
Literally everyone knows that premade teams are better than random teams with no communication. That's why most games limit how many friends you can bring to a match unless both sides are bringing a pre-made team. For 5.5 years the dev team said SWF isn't a big deal and offers little to no advantage. And then in year six they said : yea SWF gives up to a 15% escape rate - oops our bad. We're still not nerfing SWF tho.
-"You must be pretty damn good at this game"
I've been playing for 6 years and I watch lots of streamers to get better. I had 2x prestige 100 players tonight and a 8,900 hour player was my highest that was not private. I played Nemesis for 10 games and I killed everyone except 3 people got away on Torment Creek. I seem to lose every game on that map as Nemesis unless the opposing team is far below my caliber. I tried tunneling one survivor out but they did comp blocking and saved her twice. It was a SWF of at least two people (the rest were private profiles). The boons and medkits did not help.
"Not trying to be a jerk here, but your whole 'I wish new players still got put up against experienced players' thing does come over now a bit like 'I want easier matchups'."
I can see why you would say that. I want fair games like in the old days where I could focus on chases and not have to focus on 3 gens every game. The current meta is punish gen before friends by forcing someone to stage two and tunneling them out as a response to losing 2-3 gens when I get my first hook. That is just not fun to do every single game.
Aside from the smurfing problem DBD was more fun when your rank reset because you didn't have to dry off with a towel after every game. Every rank reset I feel like I'm going against the dream team in ash ranks.
I had a 20+ minute game on Abattoir in my 10 game set where the gens almost got completed about five times. I did not even have a proper three gen. This was really not fun I think for anyone in that game. Eventually most of the pallets were broken and I had full stacks/infection so it was impossible to escape a chase.
Several games later I had a 30+ minute game on Rotten Field where I had a three gen in a corner to win the match. They used an offering to start together , used voice coms to relay my position and then blasted the gen when I had pathed away. I lost two hooks - from some very clever and inventive SWF play (but not from their flashlight). I lost count how many times the gens went up to about 70-90% and I just walked the very close three gen circle until they completely reset. Then I chased someone for no more than ~35 seconds and either got a down or went back to the generators.
After this game my friend linked me the Hens game that lasted an hour. I immediately though : that looks familiar.
- I think it's more that they want to incentivize SWF play, not discourage it.
- Yeah, you are probably MMR capped or close to it. Keep in mind that this puts you into the vanishingly small minority of elite players. The game...can't really be balanced to cater to you and this minority.
- I think you and I have a very different definition of 'fair'. Putting a newbie against someone with over 8,000 hours wouldn't be close to fair. It may be fun for you to have an easier, less sweaty time of it - but it's not going to be fun at all for the other players.
- Again, less sweaty for you. For your opponents getting completely and effortlessly rolled...not so much. This is unfortunately the big complaint I see from the crusty forum veterans - 'it was less sweaty for me before', without realizing that those crazy meme 50 win streaks came at the expense of players like me, at the time.
- Yes, at the top MMR, there's going to be a rigid meta and it's going to be sweaty. That's...high MMR play in most games. If you want less sweaty games, you'll need to ease up - and take a few dozen losses. But then you're basically smurfing.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293859#Comment_3293859
"I don't think you understand how a human brain works, or how we really learn things"
I grew up playing games in arcades. If the person on the machine was too good for you to learn anything from your best bet was to just watch until they stopped playing. DBD is a rather easy game if you follow the simple premise of "money see, monkey do". Did you see the AT&T tournament where Dowsey turored some dbd noobs? They slaughtered the competition. One of the streamer's in the tournament was known for playing DBD as their main game. They came in something like 10/15th place.
-"Different MMRs for different killers...it's an idea, but not an elegant solution. And how would this account for survivors?"
Survivors are a skin so no difference. Your MMR would be inflated just for playing SWF. Your team total goes up by 200 MMR points for 2 linked people and it scales dramatically for each linked person. Three people in a swf would be at least 600 points and 4 people would be +1000 MMR. Yea that's extreme but that's one way to balance solo queue.
Alternatively we could have fair rules for the game so no MMR adjustement is needed. All I have been asking for a very long time is to make it so that when playing in a SWF there can be no repeats for : characters, items, perks or offerings. This would have almost zero impact on 2 man SWF teams. Along with this add a UI graphic to show what everyone wants to use on the ready up screen. When the party queues the game would lock all their selections except their costumes.
"the Steam profiles I check sometimes have about 1000-2000 hours"
You're playing in the goldilocks zone. I get mostly 3 man SWFs when I queue as killer. It's common for me to see players with 5000-10000 hours. I don't play nurse or blight so it's just not fun when I get handed a BS map that pretty much throws the game . In order for me to play a weaker Killer I often will instantly leave a lobby that has 3 medkits (and usually they have a boon too).
In short we're playing a completely different game. If you could log into my steam account you would probably lose 4/5 games in a row with 0-1 kills.
Every game is 4 survivors who want to try and finish three generators by the first hook. Which means I have to camp that hook to stage two and then when they get off I tunnel them out. It's so boring.....
- As did I. And yes - the operative word here is 'tutored'. If Dowsey had just stuck them into a match with him and slaughtered them, they wouldn't have learned anything. My point being - why exactly do you think putting brand new players up against highly experienced players is good for the new players? I don't think either side would get much out of that arrangement.
- I've actually suggested ramping MMR for SWFs, but one of the devs responded that they tried it as a solution but didn't like it. About a year ago if I recall.
- They've also conclusively said that they will never balance SWFs differently to solos. It's another idea I...don't hate, and has been suggested many, many times over the years but it's not going to happen.
- 5000-10000 hours...uh. You must be pretty damn good at this game, because even Otz and co. don't face 10,000 players regularly at all. It's usually 3-4k, with anyone above that generally being another streamer. If that's the norm, then well done I guess.
- Not trying to be a jerk here, but your whole 'I wish new players still got put up against experienced players' thing does come over now a bit like 'I want easier matchups'.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293895#Comment_3293895
A perk that possible deny 120sec of progressing on a down is definitely not OP
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293911#Comment_3293911
Deadlock could be buffed if it wasnt so strong on campers
Shrug. 'Possibly' is not a good way to balance stuff, I think.
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@HR_Helios said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293648#Comment_3293648
Artist is one of the least interactive killers in the game by far. She put survivors in a position where they only have one option and that's hold W away from the tile. Killers that only give one option for survivors and killer to make are by design boring and uninteractive. Look at knight for instance, The gameplay loop is ; walk to pallet drop guard, surv holds W, repeat till in deadzone or edge map, surv gets hi
t. It's the exact same thing with artist
Maybe like 6 months ago? People have gotten really good at the sort of minimal movement needed to dodge a birb without running too far.
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@rezmax said:
Can we please fix this crap already? In solo q it's almost impossible to escape when people does this perk combo. Basically getting rewarded for doing absolutely nothing...
Uh...
Eruption is not generally paired with Deadlock, as they have an anti-synergy.
Mostly you see Er with CoB or (rarely) OC.
Deadlock is a fine perk. It's good, but not overpowering.
Eruption is...strong, but I'm not sure I'd call it OP.
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@Trex_Crazy said:
Ok so when you place your guard sometimes for a frame or two you can see survivors, however the real exploit is that when you order a guard to break a generator when a survivor is repairing it you can somehow bend the laws of time space to grab them off it cross map. I haven't read anywhere that this is intended so I assume its a bug.
Huh. Never seen that one.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
The meta perks did change, it’s just the play style didn’t.
And this is for both sides - killers are still full regression and survivors is still second chances + gen rush. The meta shakeup just gave the old meta a new coat of paint.
It sucks, but these play styles will always be meta.
Well...sure? But that's both a product of just how the game works (killers need to stop survivors doing gens) and how mediocre/bad non regression perks are. Like...can you name me three universally good killer perks that aren't aura reading or regression? Because I'd struggle to.
I'm seeing a very wide variety of survivor perks though. Lots of info on top of gen/ex perks.
The problem is that if you buff lethality perks, people don't like it - because it makes them die faster. Before Eruption took over the QQ train, it was STBFL, and before that Starstruck.
Unless you completely change the way the game plays, killers will always want a lot of regression.
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@Sava18 said:
YES. It's so baffling to me how the average player in this game is terrible and someone is considered good by dbd standards really isn't that good. An amazing survivor is so rare, I would love to go against them more. But even comp players who should be the best chasers in the game will have maybe 2 good chasers in my experience. But even then it's not because they are actually that good at chasing they just pre throw and w as much as they can even if it's shelter woods.
Are there definitely things that should be changed or nerfed for both sides? Yes, but it no online pvp game ever do you cater too much to bad players. Would it be healthy if they phase out tunneling and camping while also making it possible to win vs sweat squads without it? Yes. Will that happen? Doubt.
Not to split hairs, but the average player in anything is going to be average.
@Ryuhi said:
Ideally the game should be designed for low level play, while avoiding anything that high level play can exploit.
Imagine a game like Mario Party as an example. The skill floor and ceiling are relatively close in the game, due to the rng factor having a strong potential to both rubber band and split the gap very easily. It has a lot of the outcome be separate from the individual skill requirement, and doesn't pick favorites. If someone were able to manipulate the RNG by picking a specific person and ending rounds on specific tiles, the party nature of the game would fall apart and people would be fighting over being able to stack such advantages.
DBD has a lot of issues that exist outside of the expected core gameplay loop, and can be taken advantage of on demand. The issue then becomes advantage stacking on both sides fighting an arms race to secure their position at the start of a match, and/or before it even starts. Tunneling is an answer to gen rushing is an answer to camping is an answer to god loops is an answer to 3 genning is an answer to...
The game just can't decide who it wants to appeal to, and tries to get everyone at once. This isn't even inherently a bad thing, until people know how to skew the odds in their favor, and then use that against the other side who isn't doing the same. The game really should have two separate queues to deal with this (with a ranked queue allowing everything and a casual one that forbids exploitation and limits synergies.) BHVR doesn't want to split their user base regardless of so many lopsided experiences for either side.
There's no way of knowing if the population would be able to sustain such a shift, so they instead try to balance around averages and hope it works out for as many people as possible. The problem is, people learn. Bad players can get better, and often do so by learning how to exploit the advantages that top players take advantage of, which creates a weird amalgamation of skill and strategy where it feels like everyone gets robbed in at least a few matches per session.
I don't know if there's a fix without completely overhauling the way a lot of the game works, but narrowing the win condition to kills and escapes was one of the worst ways they could have handled it, especially with how many challenges require purposely sandbagging yourself (and teammates on survivor side) in the process.
(also just in case anyone takes it away from this comparison, no, I don't want the game to become as skill-less as a game like mario party, that was mostly just an example on game design for comparison's sake)
It's very tricky. 4 years ago? Maybe. But I think DbD is now a bit 'middle aged' to be heavily focused on balance for new players.
It's already a lot more newbie friendly than it was even a year ago.
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@Someissues said:
i looped killer for 3 gens, 1 dc at start so we wiped. killer got mad and use me to farm for a good bit, give me false hope when he put me near the hatch then close the lid. then repeat farm me under the timer hits 0 and puts me on the hook.
Why would this be bannable?
I do this frequently. If there's a player I want to respect, but also need to kill (especially during my Iri grade push) - I'll make sure they'll get some BP and hopefully a pip before I kill them.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293160#Comment_3293160
-"You say 'refreshing'. I say 'awful'. It was probably fine for the experienced players, but it was an absolute misery as a newbie. It wasn't even something I could learn much from - just endlessly getting rolled."
"You condemn the MMR system for not being strict enough, but then say that newbies and experienced players constantly getting matched up was a good thing?"
It was totally fine to see good players as a noob when you were doing your "placement" games for the month when everyone was in the "white" zone.
Average players will develop bad habits that they think are good. But when they watch good players they will learn tricks that are actually much better. If good players never play average players then average players take a very long time to learn anything. Take a friend who has never played this game and give them a month with no instruction and just let them learn from playing (and no watching streamers or reading guides). Take a different friend and give them about 4 sessions of an hour (one per week) and let them play the rest of the month. The friend you teach directly will be miles ahead because he will know things that take hundreds if not thousands of hours to pick up otherwise.
If this game were going to be fair we would have MMR caps for certain killers. Let's say for example that Clown can't play against anyone over 1200 MMR as long as you are not using pinky finger. The numbers are arbitrary but you get the point. That would be fair for that killer as long as you don't use his uber addon. Doctor would probably need to have a 1000 MMR cap. Until we have some kind of protected match making where the game doesn't think Blight= Clown and Doctor=Nurse then random would be more fair.
-"And that's before how quick and easy it was to smurf your rating down. You can probably see some of my first forum posts were of the endless ultra-experienced folks in SWFs endlessly roflstomping newbies, then AFKing/suiciding matches out to drop rank again."
Smurfing is a big problem in almost any online competitive game. I've seen so many streamers play rainbow six siege in a team but they alternate who is smurfing so they can look good. Overall smurfing was really the only problem with the old system. I had a friend who played "no hook" Michael Myers for like an entire year and only about 30 people escaped. Most of the people who did were also smurfing.
To be perfectly honest SWF is kinda like smurfing because you're massively increasing your power level without being better at the game as an individual player.
The reality is DBD is probably never going to be balanced for anything other than very new players and the "middle" players who have not really learned how to play efficiently yet.
Hmm...
I don't think you understand how a human brain works, or how we really learn things. If you give a grade schooler an advanced calculus question, they will get it wrong - but they aren't going to get much out of it. Similarly, if you put a newbie up against a 2k monster, they will lose, but not in a way they'll be able you understand.
The term often used is 'scaffolding' - you put someone up against something slightly challenging, and even if they fail the first time, they'll learn. Then, once they've surpassed that challenge, you move them up a level. This allows both the motivation of success and incremental learning to occur.
If you can find an archive, Otz did a fantastic series where he tutored a new survivor - and he wasn't charging at her and wiping her out from the get go. And sure enough, she improved - and that was the series that actually made me play survivor on and off.
Different MMRs for different killers...it's an idea, but not an elegant solution. And how would this account for survivors?
My point about smurfing was that then it was so easy that even Fog Whisperers were doing it openly. Now - it's both a bigger time commitment and a much less exact science.
That said, 'SWF is like smurfing' is...a take.
I play...probably intermediate-low MMR survivor and intermediate-high MMR killer (naturally no way of knowing, but the Steam profiles I check sometimes have about 1000-2000 hours) and I mostly get decent matches. Even when I lose, it seldom feels like I couldn't have won if I'd done certain things better.
The odd game that goes sideways and I either get paired against newbies or a monstrous TTV SWF are just that - exceptions.
This was not the case under ranks.
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293544#Comment_3293544
I disagree. Throwing around a three dollar word like fractal isn't going to convince me.
Maybe what you're saying is true for highly competitive eSports games but it's not true for DbD, for the most part. There are no leaderboards in DbD.
Most of DbD's players are casuals who likely don't even know what the meta is. They look at the perks, make comparisons and decide for themselves what they want to run. If perks were balanced they are less likely to stumble on the meta. Unless the player is getting destroyed, they are not going to go look up what the meta is. This is different than now where players will more easily identify Pain Res, Eruption and a few other perks as being better.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QEPNY4OAF3HQ/image.png
Here is a graph of recent perk usage from an aggregate data site. The first 4 perks on the left are Pain Res, Call of Brine, Jolt and Eruption.
If perks were more balanced, it would result in more builds being viable in games which would result in more perks being used and we would see more variation in perk usage. This would result in the graph flattening out.
Anyways, I doubt I can change your mind. Nice chatting with you.
Is it a three dollar word? I think it's just a good word for what I'm trying to say. Infinitely complex - is that better?
Is that perks being balanced, or is that just the power of meta and player-see-player-do?
Which site, by the way, and what MMR?
That said:
- Could perks be more balanced? Sure. A lot of perks need buffs. A handful need small nerfs.
- Is pick rate below...say 50% a good indicator of balance? I'm not sure. I know Surge/Jolt isn't all that amazing on most killers, but it still gets picked a lot. Ditto self care on survivor.
- Even casual players probably do a 'best build for x' Google after they get stomped.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293440#Comment_3293440
After creating the post I was salty after getting tunnelled for 3 days straight but after some time off the game this is the correct conclusion for the three perks.
DS does need to go back to how it was
DH is honestly fine how it is now with a 50/50 chance, mindgames still work with it.
Boil over DOES need to be buffed against PC killers, it has ZERO effect on wiggling against PC players and can be seen clearly in any one of my streams (as they still walk in a straight line without wiggling), or anyone else's stream who plays against PC players for that matter. It is still fairly effective against console players but still needs a slight buff (I've had ZERO issues still hooking people who had boil over, apart from one or two on the off chance that I couldn't find a hook).
I think your opinion for the Nurse is semi flawed, Why?
Well, because I'm trash as nurse too but there's also been times where I've missed say one or two blinks the entire game and took down everyone first try, lower MMR nurse is very OP, Higher MMR she is completely broken. I think the only thing that needs nerfing for her is her blink ability, at least make it so she's unable to turn once she blinks for the first time, or at least make it so her second blink can only traverse her 10% of her first blinks distance.
Nurse has the lowest gross kill rate in the game.
Why do you think that is, if lower MMR Nurse is brokenly OP? She just needs a top down rework.
DS - no argument here. I go out of my way not to tunnel, so it really doesn't bother me. Just disable it in endgame, which can feel very unfair when it turns a bad loss into a complete blowout 4o.
DH - is fine. Actually still very strong at higher MMRs.
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@Pulsar said:
Yeah, Map of the Realm and Dried Horsemeat are insanely vital.
I have a bit more luck with the double assassin (as it's the only minion that seems...halfway good at offense) and horsemeat, but this killer - awesome visuals aside - feels like another case of 'could have been amazing but kinda sucks'.
@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293680#Comment_3293680
Yeah, and Pig. And Legion... and Hag... and Doctor... and GF ... and Caleb... Many-many coughs
With Pig it's a yellow. Legion...nah. Hag just has boring addons allround. GF - two vital browns.
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@EntitySpawn said:
I always see "most survivors arent that good" used for reasons of so many balance changes in the game and I dont get it.
Sure there are alot of bad players in DBD, there is in most games you just dont tend to notice because they have a far better SBMM system in play and you wont have bad survivors verse a good killer etc.
But even if theres more bad players (like any game) why does that mean so many other things need changes? Why is it such a crime to say people need to improve?
DBD isnt a complicated game for either side, survivor is also the easier role in terms of micro management and skill caps (hard thing about survivor is your team or versing a stronger killer). So why do X need to be changed for bad players?
Alot of loops and tiles can be pretty safe in matches and theres even alot of god pallets basic killers cant do anything about (even some loops killers cant use their powers at) and these things aren't hard to learn.
I get people can be bad, I get people can be chill but why does stuff need to be nerfed for those players so they can win more? Surely if they wanted to win more they could just put in more effort and "sweat" like killers do.
I personally see alot of good survivors, theres alot out there and I'd definitely class myself as one. I wouldn't class myself as one of the best by a long shot but theres so many things I see people use as an excuse to nerf thing and I dont think it's fair tbh.
I like any game I play to be a challenge, I don't want mega easy wins or places the killer cant do anything about. This excuse balancing for bad players is weird, it just causes worse balance as more people get better.
Maybe I'm just outdated but games use to make you put effort in to win and get better, you're meant to work hard and if matched properly by skill it's meant to be hard and a tough match, DBD community seems to want the opposite. Maybe they're confused and use this excuse because of bad SBMM/matchmaking in general?
If you arent constantly trying, pushing and playing your best you shouldn't expect to do amazing. Not saying you have to play that way just dont expect to win or out perform the other side if you aren't putting in the effort.
Try to get better, learn new things. These arent insults or bad things to have to do, everyone does it and even if it's at different rates it doesnt matter but please stop using it as a reason to make stuff easier.
Because two things can be true at the same time.
It's entirely possible that people need to get better, or learn to play around stuff more.
It's also entirely possible for stuff to be broken, or just so overwhelmingly strong that it's detrimental to the health of the game - or just really unfun. Prenerf, post rework Thana and Boil Over would be my best examples.
The other side of this is that should shouldn't need to be amazing to have fun, satisfying matches. Part of this is matchmaking's responsibility, but part of this also comes down to balance.
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@fussy said:
I really didn't like the Knight on PTB. But after the release, I fell in love with him a lot. These small changes really made him better, but not perfect.
The problem is that it's ONLY good with this addon.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2ZBJBGA6G1JK/image.png
I watch a ton of dbd content while I'm working, and literally all streamers agree that without this addon, Knight feels much worse.
Another problem is that he has terrible addons below purple. And there are only two addons that somehow make his ability better. The aforementioned one and Dried Horsemeat.
Dowsey literally did his winstrike only on these two addons, because the difference with and without them is huge. Almost all good players on Knight play only with these two addons.
My suggestions to make Knight enjoyable and playable:
Basekit:
+3 meters Vision range of Guards on patrol
+2 seconds of Hunt duration
Addons change:
Map of the Realm: +3 meters to the Vision range of Guards on Patrol
Dried Horsemeat: +3 seconds to Guards' Hunt duration
Broken Hilt: Guards inflict the Haemorrhage and Mangled Status Effect when damaging a Survivor
Chain Mail Fragment: +5 seconds to Guards' Hunt duration
I really hope that you, BHVR, will bring the Knight to the ideal, and not abandon him, as it was with Sadako. This is really one of the best killers in the game. But he needs a some love <3
Mm. Although, to be fair, this isn't the only killer with a mandatory brown that should be basekit (cough Sadako).
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@HR_Helios said:
What makes DBD fun is the chase, both chasing survs and being chased by the killer are the most fun things in the game. Thus, a fun to vs and play killer is one that is:
1. Skillful to utilize and master; so that there's plenty of room to improve on the killers end and you can respect the time they put in from the survs end
And
2. Reliable counterplay and ability to punish survs mistakes; so that survs have something reliable to work with to outplay them and the killer has the ability to punish wrong read from the survs.
Billy has both of these.
Takes thousands of hours to not only master the mechanical skill of curving and feathering accurately but also to build the game knowledge and map knowledge to know how to zone efficiently and utilize your map mobility to it's max potential.
He also has extremely reliable counterplay such as; going wide on tiles when Billy is going for a curve, crouching next to corners Billy is about to curve causing him to glide off of you (crouch tech), getting in corners of tiles that Billy is about to curve so that he goes around you, and of course dropping pallets early. And almost all of these pieces of counterplay if read by the Billy will result in a down punishing the surv.
I plead my case, may be a tad biased cause I'm a billy main but come-on. Show Billy players more love. They play a difficult to learn and average strength killer that's fun to vs and most even play without slowdowns. Spread the love
Billy is a fun killer to play against.
Playing him feels like a lot of work and skill to make anything happen - he's not like Artist or PH where, if you get good, you can do some insane things. He's the worst of both worlds - high skill floor, without much reward until ridiculously high skill levels.
I'd say 'Artist' fits the bill better. Tons of interactivity, lots of character, but isn't tooth grindingly frustrating to learn.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293638#Comment_3293638
I'm not trying to skirt around anything, they just weren't a free health state.
You could be hit while entering the snowmen, and you got extremely little distance after being hit out of one due to a lack of a speed boost. Even less distance if the snowman was struck from the front. I played during that event, and I remember that this was all overblown overreaction at the time, too.
It's been a year. It's time to let it go.
They were and they weren't.
If you timed them right, especially against certain killers, they could definitely act as a third health state - but without the speed boost.
The problem was that, on top of DH, you could use them to extend already obnoxious chases even further.
They could also backfire, or could be hard countered by other killers.
It was just a...mess of an event, all told.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293615#Comment_3293615
Myers couldn't stalk through them but was otherwise unaffected, he'd just smack them. Trickster laceration may be reset, but his knives also broke the snowmen entirely iirc so he was actually one of the better killers to play if you wanted to completely ignore them.
Even if it were four, more than four killers completely invalidated the snowmen entirely. Even if we were to assume the snowmen actually functioned as a third health state (as opposed to what they were, a highly situational and marginally useful protection hit), the amount of killers that completely circumvented them would've made them a mild annoyance at best. A three or four, not a ten.
They weren't actually a problem last year, people overreacted. Still, for the record, this year is better, since there were edge cases that prevented the snowmen from their intended purpose.
Eh. We'll have to agree to disagree here. I found them crippling on Myers and Trickster against savvy teams. Let's just say...I played a lot of Doctor during the event.
@brokedownpalace said:
"yeah I know it's kind of unfair now, but it was really unfair a year ago so it's ok!"
How about the devs just think things through before implementing so they're fair for every one, every time?
It's very close to fair now. If you don't know where the killer is, and there's a snowman hugging the hook, assume it's them and treat it like any other camper, just without their power.
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@MrMori said:
I never run slowdown, boring as ######### to face so I don't run it. I also feel like it gives you wins you otherwise wouldn't get against players that are clearly better than you in chase.
On the other hand, I always run Dead Hard even though I still think it's bullshit and wish it was changed again so it wouldn't be the most used survivor perk again. So that's hypocritical.
It's just so god damn strong and has such big impact when used right. A good Dead Hard can extend an important early game chase and allow gens to fly, make up for a failed 50/50, force a hit near a window or pallet, and completely change the pace of the game.
As for survivor gameplay, I never tbag or wait at gates or anything. I get hit on hook 50 times but get to gates? I'm out. I make sure my teammates get out of course, but I never stay at gates once it's over. Don't care. Go next. That's how I want people to play against me too.
Eh, some killers can work with an unga-bunga chasedown, zero regression build - until you get sent to Eyrie or Badham.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293604#Comment_3293604
In terms of being unbalanced? Nah, it went from a 2 to a 0. The snowmen weren't unbalanced last year save for the interactions with Twins and Ghostface, and they're not unbalanced at all this year.
They also wrecked Myers...and unless I'm mistaken, they reset Trickster laceration?
That's 3, possibly 4 entire killers countered. 10.
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@jesterkind said:
I was wondering if someone would start complaining about snowmen being unbalanced in the opposite direction this year, I'm surprised it took this long.
Regardless, I don't think that's necessarily required, but it would help emphasise the stealth element of the snowmen. Maybe next year!
Eh. This is more like going from a '10' one way to a '2' the other way.
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@Seanzu said:
Not sure if you've all seen the teleport exploit with knight or not but what do you guys think are the odds he gets nuked until fixed?
I doubt it. For something to get killswitched, it has to be massively game breaking (like the IH bug) and this is more just a silly, janky bug on a pretty meh killer.
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@Mockingjay_S451 said:
If killers are getting free Insidious by using a snowman, why are survivors not getting free old Iron Will?
If killers are allowed to go completely silent, why aren’t survivors?
Shrug. It's a bit of an overcompensation after last year, where survivors not only had a free health state, but snowmen also completely broke several killer's powers.
Hopefully next year will be a bit more balanced.
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@Emeal said:
and you can't bring it out too close to the loop
Then stand back, its a pain but the only solution atm.
The issue is that the solution is the problem. Unless they make a serious mistake and hang around the loop, by the time the guard is out and I'm back up, they are miles away.
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@Emeal said:
Here is my run down
Chase survivor, when survivor gets to a loop with pallet.
Unzip your guard. Keep your eyes on Survivor as the guard unfolds.
Punish the movement a Survivor is forced to make.
Trying it at present, just faced a TTV SWF that completely pantsed me.
The summon has a delay and you can't bring it out too close to the loop, due to the weird restriction on where it can be summoned. By the time it's up and the animation is done, the survivor is already halfway through to the next loop.
The only areas where I'm finding them consistently useful are:
- I down someone, I know someone is coming for a save so I summon to discourage it.
- Quicker pallet breaks, if I've got Carni.
- Forcing survivors off shack.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but if they leave the second I summon, they gain time on me compared to if I'd just chased them.
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293475#Comment_3293475
I don't know how you could think that. It's not based in logic, that's for sure.
If all the slowdown perks were close to equal to each other people would pick whatever suits their playstyle and not be forced to pick the meta because no perk would stand out or at least not stand so far out. They wouldn't feel like they have to choose Eruption or Pain Res because they are by far the best regression perks currently in the game.
If Ruin didn't have its regression rate nerfed along side it getting deactivated once a survivor dies, it would still have a decent pick rate because there are players that like its automatic regression without having to kick gens or use scourge hooks. But now the only people using Ruin are people that are returning to the game after a hiatus that didn't know it got nerfed hard enough to be a dead perk.
Here's the thing. Balance is fractal.
Even if the perks were at 1% of each other (a nearly impossible goal, without making them ridiculously simple and similar), whichever perk is 1% ahead would be picked substantially more.
That's just how a meta works.
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@HugTechLover said:
instadrop guards at loops vs drawing lines. Works much better. You can also make an insta pallet break guard build that works really well.
I also tried that, but the second I do, they just leave the loop. And that power has a monster cooldown.
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@Beatricks said:
Bubba and Demo. Solid killers that don't have insane skill ceilings.
Weirdly, I'd say that both of those are killers with high skill ceilings :)
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@Nirgendwohin said:
sorry to say this but he is just an awful design for the killer and for the survivors.
I've only really started learning him, so it's entirely possible that I just don't 'get' how he's supposed to play. But yeah, thus far - not a fan at all.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293416#Comment_3293416
I don't think that makes it less rewarding, it just makes it slightly harder to pull off. It's more rewarding than its ever been due to the aforementioned passive gen slowdown and the increased gen time, basically nerfing the one and only counter.
Gens haven't slowed down too much, especially when you factor in stuff like PTS, Hyperfocus etc. The answer to camping is a bit different now at least, in that you can trade effectively.
Unless it's a Bubba, but that's another topic.
The answer to camping used to be 'just leave the person to die, while you slam gens'. The answer now is more like 'slam gens, and when the person is getting close to death run in, unhook and replace them'.
It's still not perfect, but - as BHVR themselves have said - it's very hard to 'fix' in a way that doesn't break the rest of the game.
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293423#Comment_3293423
"All you can do is shake it up from time to time."
What a horribly flawed way to look at maintaining game. Sadly I think BHVR agrees with you.
But they do have another, better option. The can try to balance the game. I know it's a shocking idea, but hear me out.
They could divide perks into categories and then try to balance the perks in those categories. In the slowdown category they could have easily done this in 6.1.0 but not overnerfing Ruin and Pop and not overbuffing Eruption, Overcharge and Call of Brine. For Exhaustion perks they could buff Balanced Landing, Smash Hit, etc to bring them in line with Dead Hard and Sprint Burst.
We'd see much more varied loadouts if BHVR took this approach. Unfortunately they appear to be controlling the meta so players have to buy licensed DLC to get meta perks. This is especially evident when it comes to slowdown perks.
I played this game yesterday:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TWOONDYUKSWF/image.png
It certainly didn't feel like the survivor meta has changed much.
Perk categories and restrictions have been suggested before, but I think that would create an even more rigid meta. People would literally just pick whatever was currently considered the 'best' perk of each category, but with more restrictions on mixing and matching.
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@Gamall said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293428#Comment_3293428
Not sure by your first consideration, but I respect that
Mean people in a videogame tends to be remembered, while the dozens of other good or fair games just get memory holed.
One bad experience tends to fill all the available space despite being quite small in the grand scheme of things. I call it 'the fart in an elevator' syndrome.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
The rise in tunnelling/camping proved the 3 perks were heavily effective at stopping this horrible playstyle from killers
Hahaha. No.
DS was fine.
DH was broken.
Boil Over was so spectacularly broken that it didn't just win games, it allowed survivors to stall games out forever by becoming unsluggable and unhookable.
@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292437#Comment_3292437
And?
There are NO counters to a good nurse, you see dev's implementing any changes to her? No.
Unfortunately, Nurse is a weird case where her gross kill rate is ridiculously low, meaning that - while she's overpowering in the hands of an expert - she's hot garbage in the hands of most other people.
I'm not a fan of this, but it's a different discussion. Short answer: she needs a rework, but the game isn't balanced around one outlier killer.
@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292799#Comment_3292799
So it should be kept the same for console but toned up for PC because it doesnt affect PC players.
No. Boil Over allowed people to be completely unhookable on some maps (IWOM, Eyrie). Due to the way falling worked with it, you simply couldn't get a survivor to a hook if they went down in the wrong spot. So what people did was equip No Mither and basically just stand there all game, forcing you to slug camp them.
It was like playing against a lag switcher.
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@BillsHere101 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293327#Comment_3293327
Asymmetrical games can't be balanced. Stop smoking that weed yo you're trippy as hell
False dichotomy detected. Deploying logic.
There is a massive area between 'let's just not bother balancing and fixing stuff at all' and 'rigid Esports balance'.
While it'll never be perfectly balanced, there's no reason not to at least try. Because the more balanced the game is, the more varied it can be.
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@roundpitt said:
Equip Gen kicking perks, kick gen, leave guard on gen. Profit
I assumed that was how he worked, but what'll happen is that one person just leads the guard away and the other gets back on the gen. Best case scenario, it just extends the game a bit longer.
He's fine if people are derpy, but that's most killers.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
I was wonding if anyone else refuses to use perks that they don't like facing? For me it's eruption I don't run it because I hate getting hit with the incapacitated effect as a survivor so I don't put other players though that.
So does anyone not use a perk or even combo from either side?
I seldom run Eruption, because it tends to be a 'win more' perk. It can turn a winning game into a crushing victory, but it can also be essentially a wasted slot.
I prefer to run stuff that's consistent.
Call me a snowflake, but I also have an aversion to playing 'overplayed' characters and builds.
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@Gamall said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293423#Comment_3293423
I know right that mean people are on both sides, simply the discussion was about killer meta changing and thus my reply
Your reply implies that 'killers' are just mean people looking to make survivors miserable.
I'm saying that:
- This is a tiny minority of people.
- This minority occurs on both sides.
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@RakimSockem said:
So remember back when there was this big hoopla about how 40 perks were being changed and this was supposed to shake up the meta and make different playstyles come to light.....
Yeah that happened on the survivor side, but the killer meta changed very little (if at all).
95% of my games yesterday against various killers were "Eruption, Call of Brine, Pain Res, + insert aura reading perk here". Now while you can argue that "technically" it's a meta change because Eruption wasn't used before the buff, it has the same affect as the old meta perks so the playstyle is the same, except more boring now because killers break chase every 15 seconds to kick a gen.
Meanwhile when I look at survivor perks in most games, there's a huge variety of perks being used and different playstyles at play. Some people go for extreme healing builds. Some go for gen rush (I find those boring), some go for stealth, while a few stick with the old meta (Dead hard, CoH, etc)
So I would love to see an ACTUAL change to killer meta perks to the point where I don't have to run into the same boring perks 30 games in a row
Okay, so.
Here's the thing. 'Meta' just means 'the right way to play the game at this point in time'.
There will always be a handful of perks that are considered 'better'. The higher your MMR, the more likely you are to see people running 'optimal' builds and the more rigid the meta is.
All you can do is shake it up from time to time.
This isn't helped by the fact that a lot of killer perks range from 'rubbish' to 'meh'. There's a reason nobody runs Grim Embrace, Furtive Chase etc.
@Gamall said:
Killers would keep running regression perks even though gens repair would take 3 hours just to make the game miserable for others and get the "4k perfect skill game" as the devs want, so...
Most killers just want to win ASAP at higher MMRs. Very few are looking to make things deliberately miserable, they're just playing to what they believe is the optimal 'build'.
Also - not sure why you're making this an Us versus Them thing. A few months ago, they buffed Boil Over and you had so many survivor groups abusing it to become literally unhookable and stalling games out forever.
Hell, I have maybe 1 game a day where two survivors just hide the entire game to be annoying.
There are mean people on both sides.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Any killer except Knight.
I've been trying to learn Knight, and unless I'm not seeing his 'trick', he seems bottom tier.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3291879#Comment_3291879
Is it?
I know people can overexagurate about camping but i wouldn't say it's less rewarding then ever
In the past gens took 10 seconds less and you did 't have passive slowdown like deadlock
Can you explain why it's less rewarding now?
In the past, you could instantly knock down the unhooked person unless they had BT, as well as killing the rescuer. Now, if the rescuer plays it right, they can trade - and you've got perks like OTR and Solidarity that make it even harder.
There are some exceptions (Bubba...) but yeah.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293026#Comment_3293026
Most people hate the new MMR system.
The old system was random assortment. Over a long enough timeline random assortment is the most fair model.
The current SBMM sucks. Why? Because the cap is way too low in an effort to make matches fast. In so doing fairness gets thrown out the window. As an aside : there is no MMR "adjustment" given to 2 man/3 man/4man SWF teams and there most certainly should be.
SWF bully squads who win over and over again should be sitting in the match making queue for 10+ minutes. And when they get a match it should be try hardiest tournament Nurse or Blight. The fact that they play with "regular" killers hurts the system. Why? Because if 100 survivors leave then 25 killers have fewer people to play with. But if 100 killers leave then 400 survivors have fewer people to play with.
Monthly rank resets were refreshing. You had good players playing bad players and the good players won and were quickly sifted to the "better player" pool. This was healthy for the game because new players could see how a strong killer played. And they could learn things by watching better players in their matches. The only bad side about this arrangement was that it led to people losing and then crying on the forums : why did I play against a 2k hour killer?
You had good players playing good players too. Generally speaking people got sorted into their appropriate colors quickly and everything worked well. When you got to "red ranks" in the old system everyone there was a pro. It was a very fun experience for high level play even in solo queue. There were no "pretenders" that could stay at red ranks for long if they didn't have the skill to play in that league. (we're talking about your stereotypical immersed claudette running self care with no botany who uses urban evasion to walk around the exterior map edges).
Not sure how to break up posts, but okay. Let's drill down.
- Do they?
- Hahahaha what? No, no it isn't. I started out under ranks. I was facing reds within 10 games thanks to the ridiculous monthly reset. Within 3 weeks, I was in purples, and facing reds again. Me, with maybe 40 hours against people with 1000-2000, in SWFs.
- Is the cap way too low? AFAIK, we don't know what our MMRs are.
- MMR used to be a bit more fair, but they relaxed it after exactly what you're asking for happened. Endless queues.
- Right now, survivor is the unpopular role.
- You say 'refreshing'. I say 'awful'. It was probably fine for the experienced players, but it was an absolute misery as a newbie. It wasn't even something I could learn much from - just endlessly getting rolled.
- That is an entirely valid complaint. New players and 2k hour folks should not be getting paired up. I'm also confused. You condemn the MMR system for not being strict enough, but then say that newbies and experienced players constantly getting matched up was a good thing?
- And that's before how quick and easy it was to smurf your rating down. You can probably see some of my first forum posts were of the endless ultra-experienced folks in SWFs endlessly roflstomping newbies, then AFKing/suiciding matches out to drop rank again.
- Appropriate colors...what? I got into purple within my first month of playing, meaning I was facing red rankers half the time. And I barely had any idea what was going on - honestly, until red, the odd lucky streak could quickly inflate your rating, and it took a while to go back down again?
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@Unimatrix00 said:
I like to play Pinhead as my main, sorry. After him, I also enjoy playing Doctor, Plague, Legion and Nemesis on occasion as well.
I enjoy playing against Cenobite, actually - but yeah, he can be a misery solo.
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@LordSturm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3292924#Comment_3292924
Oh, I didn't even know that skin existed. It looks badass in the concept art but not so much in game.
The new Bone Chill Dredge skin looks really cool from the concept art, it has no neck from what I can tell, hopefully it looks great in-game too
Oh, if it doesn't have the silly neck then I'll all in.
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@Jurizaurz said:
It has been said many times before they're updating it. Recently they've made a system for player who haven't been playing for quite a long time. And what do we face? New players are still getting matched vs high MMR tryhards, returning players are still facing those who have high MMR and play every day.
Stop acting like you are actually "fixing it" when it's a complete lie and it literally NEVER worked, never works and will never work.
Haha what?
I played before MMR.
I played after MMR.
It's a million times better than it was under ranks, especially factoring in one week of every month being complete chaos due to the reset.
MMR isn't perfect, but it's definitely an improvement.
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Unfortunately, the OPW style is the only way to make this killer viable at decent MMRs.
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@FlameGNG said:
After the event has been released i just cant play survivor... Im playing with a friend who is new and obv he gets tunneled out every single match first i mean even when im bodyblocking or other teammates they just ignore them. ALL killers slug for the 4k too. I mean i've had games with 2 insta dcs and the killer still slugs xd.
Now i dont really care everyone can play how they want but i am a little curious if anyone else is seeing this trend? I mean i havent been slugged for a while in literally months (slugged as last survivor) ive had it twice today where they slug me for 4mins and i had one yesterday so something is up :D
A few things:
- Games with multiple DCs...yeah. Get them done ASAP - although it's a lose/lose for killers. Wipe everyone out ASAP? 'omG swEAtLord gieV us a ccHance'. Give everyone chance to recover? 'OMg TROLL just END'.
- Focusing one person out of the game ASAP is, sadly, how killer works. Try to 2 hook everyone? You're going to get destroyed and teabagged all the way to the gate.
That all said - yes, there are still campers, sluggers and the rest. But slugging is going to be changed soon, and it's never been less rewarding to tunnel or camp than it is now.
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@LordSturm said:
Demogorgon, I love how he scream and teleporting is cool
Dredge, I like teleporting and also nightfall is really cool
Legion, I love how he looks and sprinting around stabbing people is fun
Wesker, slamming people into things is very satisfying and throwing people is hilarious
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/357754/your-current-go-to-killer-s
Don't worry about the visual design, there's a free cosmetic set for him in the event tome that actually looks surprisingly good, so you no longer have to look like male genitalia.
Also there's the skeleton skin in the store for shards, that one's okay.
I use the Anniversary skin, which is an improvement, but he still looks like Cucumber The Conqueror.