RpTheHotrod
RpTheHotrod
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@RoyC87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863588#Comment_3863588
So I wanna compare this game to Evolve which is where my mentality comes from having played it from 2015-2021 and playing in it's comp scene. In terms of "balance" it is as the exact same. Same senerio at it's core Solo Q vs having a team (SWF). Perks and everything. Even right down to it's monster. In the world on Evolve Elder kraken would be the blight or nurse of Evolve .You wanna know what determined the true balance of that game and is the end balance of DBD it is the effort put into the game you could not consider yourself to understand the "balance" until at least minimum 2-3 years of playing a single role (mine was support) and having teammates that understood their role the same way even then the perfect monster player understands their role(monster and killer learn to play good much faster than it takes a true team that's able to win). It became a game of who makes the first mistake. I don't think the way DBD is and it's also the way Evolve was nobody wants to put in that kind of time but DBD is still a game that people love playing just because of what the game is where Evolve had it issues most time being referred to as a running simulator. It's those people who don't understand how roles worked on Evolve unfortunately. All in all how long does it take to truly understand this game? I've played it on and off since it's release and I know I don't. I feel like I'm leaving out so much. I guess my conclusion is on both games you have to be extremely dedicated to be the player you think you are as much could be said for any asymmetrical game who really knows? It a different genre so far not smiled upon. The answer on Evolve was and I was part of the forums there too if Solo Q is such a big problem then find people to play and practice with it's a overall easy answer for the devs and makes the most sense. It will be more fun than solo q and you'll probably get a few more wins. DBD has the tool (custom game) to improve.
DBD is definitely a "mistakes lose the match" kind of game. Perfectly played survivors are going to win. Perfectly played killere can still lose. The match at high mmr always comes down to the amount of mistakes the survivors make and the killer's ability to capitalize on them. Survivors have all the tools in the world to guarantee wins, but it's difficult to make perfect plays consistently. That's why we see some SWFs ha ing 200+ wins in a row - some survivors are just that good at the game. The reality is, the game really is survivor sided, but how easy it is to make mistakes as a survivor is what makes the game playable as a killer. While it's easy to say skill issue, the amount of knowledge and experience it takes to always win is so great, that it's not realistic for any average survivor to ever win consistently. Buffing survivors definitely helps the average survivors win more, but it also makes experienced survivors absolutely unstoppable (unless nurse/blight is in play - they legit are incredibly strong in good hands).
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
Well because what tends to happen is you get on what I like to call the Killer Treadmill. That goes like this:
- You find a Killer you really like. You click with them well and learn them.
- You play them a lot and find yourself winning many games, because you got to know how they work. Congrats, you are competent at The [Killer].
- You then keep stomping everyone until you hit the MMR soft cap with them. Once you hit this you face decent Survivors who know how to play, and you start getting confused why you are losing. Realistically, it's because you're good but not yet super competent.
- You get frustrated and do one of two things. You either call the Killer trash and drop them, or you actually start to learn how they work and REALLY get good. Congrats, if you do the latter you now are very good at The [Killer].
- You continue to do OK and then finally hit another stopgap point. Now you are struggling again so you need to start adding in stuff like multiple gen perks, strong meta, etc. to stomp more and more, and of course you don't want the shame of going back DOWN in MMR. People will call you a baby. You won't pip. You will feel an ego wound. So you start playing really nasty.
- You then hit actual high MMR by playing this way, and wonder why you can't go further, so you "trade up" to another Killer hoping to stomp.
- Go back to step one.
In all cases for all Killers you get stuck on this treadmill. It's easy to do because the game supports it and encourages you to always win all the time, because it punishes failure by giving you less of the BP and dopamine you want. The only way off the treadmill is to stop caring about winning so hard, and just play the Killers you like for the sake of playing the Killer. Stop "trying to improve" and chasing the win dragon. Allow yourself to lose more and START playing the way you REALLY want to play instead of falling into a miserable cycle chasing dopamine highs only possible if you win. It's very hard to do that, but the more you do it the easier it gets.
tl;dr - Killers feel they need to win all the time because that's what the game and this community SAYS matters, constantly, all the time. And then when they don't do that, they feel inadequate, especially if they play Killers not traditionally seen as strong. And this happens to everyone who plays Killer at SOME point in their career in this game, because it's extremely easy to feel you have to win when the game rewards wins and punishes failures.
This is pretty true. What helped me as killer was playing anonymous. Now I don't feel like I have anything to prove - nothing is tied to my name. I'm just some anonymous p100 ghostie that occasionally gets asked if I'm some streamer hiding my identify, lol.
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The devs keep making any non tunneling tactics unviable. Now they are making hooking people unviable to encourage mass slugging tactics. Why? Heck if I know why, but they seem pretty insistent on turning the game into focusing heavily on tunneling and slugging.
Id rather them encourage killers to hook as opposed to slugging, and I'd rather them bring back gen regression viability so the majority of the killers (especially m1 killers) aren't so dependant on tunneling out someone asap just to stay afloat.
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@RoyC87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3862629#Comment_3862629
I think you need to consider a high MMR killer actually sweating on nurse or blight they will always win if we are talking about the highest skilled killers vs survivor. IDK why everyone suggests that when if you simply watch twitch you'll see it. It will be clear as day. I do no include DBD comp because of perk and add on bans. Comp doesn't reflect the way most play the game. Suggestions like the one you have made is why the game is in the state it's in . I'd say low MMR survivors get stomped mid get stomped but still do a few gens and high can win but struggle to do so if the killer is going all out playing the most reliable perks to get the win which most don't. I watched Tofu's Oni streak to 100. Oni isn't even a S tier killer according to him and he only faced a team that somewhat scared him a little 1 out of every 15 matches. I think of killers like Lilith omen's blight. Who can beat that? If he is absolutely wants to win? 1 out of 15 survivor teams has a chance. These are the highest MMR players playing. I'd say it's the opposite killer>survivor. Just did a little research highest survivor win streak end a month ago at 173 and highest killer win streak is a blight with 1947 wins this is complete opposite ends of a spectrum.
I think you may have completely misread my comment. I said the exception is nurse and blight which always overperforms at high mmr and needs to be nerfed. That's also why it's almost always those two at high mmr and especially competitions since the other killers become less and less viable at high mmr.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861897#Comment_3861897
I'll trade you my matches then. In most of my matches, one of us (or sometimes all of us) are on death hook before the first gen gets done.
Granted, various MMR levels will have different experiences. The lower end MMR bracket has killers absolutely stomping. Mid MMR it's roughly balanced, and high MMR survivors have a lot of control over the killer. At high MMR, a match loss or win usually comes down to the amount of mistakes survivors make or do not make. Perfectly played survivors are unstoppable. Perfectly played killers can still lose. High MMR, it's all about capitalizing on survivor mistakes, but very experienced survivors make very little of those. That's why you can find survivor SWF groups who have 200+ wins in a row.
The exception is solo queue which naturally is in a weaker position vs killer than being in a SWF group. Additionally, nurse\blight is strong enough to even cause trouble for very experienced killers - those two killers are just genuinely broken, imho.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861546#Comment_3861546
There's already plenty of mechanics in place to keep Survivors from looping too long: Killers gain bloodlust, pallets get broken, windows get blocked after vaulting it so many times in chase, etc.
Looping Isnt the problem - gen speed is. Looping is fun because it takes at least some sort of skill to perform. Generators is just holding a button, and it's pretty silly you can finish a gen within 30 seconds these days. Usually killers lose 3 gens by the time they get their first hook.
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@Witchubtet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861392#Comment_3861392
but they both have 40 second cool downs. These two would scream within 4-8 seconds. I can handle screams every half minute but under ten seconds? Made me want to homescreen (i didn’t because i did that against the first batch)
Could have been iron maiden. Every time you exit a locker, you scream.
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/435315/seasons-greetings-from-the-fog
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859614#Comment_3859614
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/RBDXCHQGRNCM/tmp.gif
I am beyond myself with gratitude. 💐💐💐
Sincerely, I love horror. I love this game. And I love this community. I’ve always found a home in the horror genre- I’m sure many of us can relate. For one reason or another we are all here enjoying this game together.
@TheSingularity (pre and post 😊)
@C3Tooth We all miss you
@CountOfTheFog 😊😄💐
@Shroompy 😊😄💐
+ Everyone else I didn’t list!!! 💐💐💐
I’m a huge fan of being the change you want to see. The above people have demonstrated a willingness to be that change while remaining their authentic selves. I see Dbd reflected in every single person listed and on this forum. These people will give you the best that they have to offer. Why not match that passion and be the change you want the dbd community to become? Why not? It can happen. They can help you get there.
I wanted to thank @For_The_People for being the first person from the forums that I’ve ever played Dbd with. He is a very sweet person who will give you his time of day in earnest if you need him to. He’s one of the prime examples of politeness in this community. Thank you for being a positive force in the community. 😊😊😊
Lastly I need to thank @solarjin1 . What can I say? When you meet a friend that gets you, you both just know it. Her courage to be funny and humorous is so infectious. She told me that the small pallet in rpd was the most op pallet. I was so naive of game knowledge that I believed her! LMAO! After that I realized that it was anything goes when it came to humor with her. I’m at my best when I can be silly. Solarjin1 is that friend who brings out the best in me. Thank you Solarjin1 for all the laughs and for the laughs to come 😂 I’m going to be collecting🤣🤣🤣
None of this would be possible if we didn’t have a phenomenal community team here to support us discussing this twisted hobby we all have. Thank you again to everyone at Bhvr for putting your hearts and souls (ha!) into everything that is Dbd.
They say you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar…
Let’s just use blood instead 🩸😈🩸
Happy Holidays everyone, I hope everyone stays safe and has a wonderful New Years 😊🎉
Huzzah! May you dodge every swing and avoid every hook for seasons to come! Cheers
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I feel It really comes down to the quality of the survivors in question.
Like these here are all solo queue situations for me
https://youtu.be/rCWNuSN42AY?si=TFc_q1cq95zL1Bap https://youtu.be/SmXWT7gN3qw?si=gNAgXixc8BrgSW8AAnd getting a 4 man out with a face camping nurse
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/s/iiPateoWPS
You may say something along the lines that, "well, the survivors i get teamed up with in solo queue doesn't work like a team like that." but once again, that's comes down to the quality of the survivors. You cant balance around people's willingness or lack of willingness to work together. While comms for everyone would be helpful, sure, if you have survivors playing to help each other like they should be, you're fine in in solo queue. The problem is less solo queue and more players deciding to actively not work together. That's hard to fix.
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@doobiedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859571#Comment_3859571
Why do you keep saying "balance swf and solos differently" when thats not what I suggested. Are you confused? Well you must be to say that killers dont win more which is an objective fact. Solo's very much do need buffs because it is impossible to nerf swf. If swf also gets a small advantage from one of these buffs oh well, if swf and solo are in a closer place at the end then that is still better than before. Like I said, if you're so worried about too many buffs I said killer can then be buffed to compensate after we get swf and solo as close as possible.
I play almost exclusively solo queue as survivor (i don't have any friends who play dbd, so not much choice). While i mostly play killer, I don't really have issues in solo queue. What's the general issue? I feel it's the lack of communication with the other players, but generally, I feel that as long as you can hold your own and work to help the team, it isn't much of an issue. I go take protection hits, unhook, and so on. Heck, if I have a hook state to spare and someone is on death hook being chased, I'll go down intentionally just to get the death hook survivor time to get to safety. Sometimes I feel it's more like solo queue survivors just expect to go at it alone without interacting with the other survivors then everything falls apart because you essentially have two survivor teams working against each other.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
I feel like as Survivor I could stare them straight on and never reveal them meanwhile as Killer I get revealed through walls from miles away.
It definitely has issues, Idk if it has to do with new versus old tilesets, but it definitely has issues.
As a survivor, I've revealed him while he was literally behind me (not even in view). Got that one on video, too. It's pretty silly.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859277#Comment_3859277
I was told once by someone on the forums when I had a question about my own “win rate” that the 40% is distributed between all survivors as a whole, not individual. Survivors as a whole have a 40% winrate, not a 40% winrate individually. Again this is just what was said to me, so I’m not necessarily saying it’s right or wrong. I haven’t been able to find any proof or clarification on the 40% being all survivors claim or the claim that the 40% is for individuals through the Devs, so if you have some I’d really appreciate it! As it’s a question I’ve asked before and gotten a different response to. Thank you for taking the time!
It's a fair question. The devs have made it pretty clear that the game is 4 individual survivors up against the killer, and each survivor gets their own specific win condition. The survivors don't actually win as a team or lose as a team. A survivor wins if they escape, and lose if they do not. This is also reinforced in the endgame screen. It never says survivors win or survivors lose. It is simply if you personally escaped or not. They dont keep tabs on "survivor team wins" because they don't win together. Otherwise, they would have to define what a win is for each side which they wholeheartedly avoid doing. The community has defined what they consider a win since the devs won't acknowledge what a win would be. For example, most of us say 3+ kills is a killer win, but the devs won't state this and instead refer to the match as the killer getting 3 kills.
Now you may ask why they avoid defining team wins. That's because it would get really weird. Since the match is 4 individual 1 v 1 scenarios happening simultaneously, then a killer killing a single person would win that 1 v 1. That means a killer could get anywhere between 0 and 4 wins in a single match. Due to this, the devs abandoned the notion of trying to define what makes a team "win" and literally account for everything being the common denominator of whether or not a survivor escapes or not for the survivor, and whether there is a kill for the killer. That's why we get kill rates, not killer win rates. As for survivors, and escape is interchangeable with a win, but it's strictly at a per survivor basis. Otherwise, they would need to define what a survivor team win is. That's also why you don't see ties being reported in their stats, because it's impossible for 1 v 1 situations to have a tie. One side always wins, and one side always loses. If the survivors DID win as a team, then ties would be relevant and reported. Alas, they are not.
Now, why did someone tell you otherwise? The community members sometimes have the view that the game IS a team vs team game, and that survivors all win or lose together, but the devs have clarified multiple times that this isn't the case. Regardless, some feel the designers are "wrong" and declare it is a team game. Regardless of those community member feelings, the designers of the game do their stats at an individual level.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859285#Comment_3859285
I get that (including the edit) and I don't disagree with it. My comments were addressing a post that was trying to frame the 60/40 statistic as immutable. Basically correcting that each individual player will not uniformly fall into line with this statistic. There will be survivors who win more than 40% of the time, just like there will be ones that survive less than the average.
Absolutely. I recall seeing a solo queue survivor having a 60% TEAM win rate (as in 3+ had to escape to count it as a win). That's pretty nuts, but certainly not the norm. Survivor potential is practically unlimited. Perfect survivor plays guarantee wins. Perfect killer plays can still have a loss. The game just comes down to how many mistakes the survivors make and how the killer can capitalize on them. So while the survivors have ALL the tools available to them to make them unbeatable, not many players can take advantage of all of those consistently.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859277#Comment_3859277
well… yes?
My entire point was that the stats do not force outcomes like people always like to argue, they are a data point that has a very large deviation in either direction and not "I will lose 60%/win 40% of my games" guaranteed.
It's certainly variable. The numbers are just averaging across a multitude of matches. You could win 10 in a row (a 100% win rate!) then suddenly lose 50 in a row (so much for that 100% win rate, lulz). I edited my post to include mathz.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859062#Comment_3859062
That has nothing to do with what I said. I only mentioned SWFs as a variable that contributes to the average, so I don't see what that has to do with my comment.
Bear in mind that stat is still at a per survivor basis. If 3 of the 4 survivors escape, one of them on the stats still show as a failed escape despite the survivors "winning". The game stats are built at a per survivor basis and don't count them as a team, so if it's, 48% per survivor with SWFs (IIRC), their overall rate of escaping is actually decently high.
If you have 4 "things", and each "thing" has a 48% chance of being positive, then you actually end up with a pretty high chance of it being in your favor. It's a 68% chance that half of the survivor team escapes. That's two survivor winners and a killer loser. (survivors win are entirely separate per survivor - they either win or lose. Killers need 3 kills for a win).
You have only a few possible outcomes
0 survivor winners, 4 survivor losers, 1 killer winner
1 survivor winner, 3 survivor losers, 1 killer winner
2 survivor winners, 2 survivor losers, 1 killer loser
3 survivor winners, 1 survivor loser, 1 killer loser
4 survivor winners, 0 survivor losers, 1 killer loser
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I used to play daily. One of my favorite games. However, i like to master underdogs, so I mained ghostie. P100. I also am not out to make anyone's experience miserable, so if I'm playing and notice the survivors getting stomped, I back off and let them catch up. If I end up getting a lot of hooks at once, I'll hold off and let people get unhooked and reset. I also almost always give last hatch.
However, I have not played in over a month, now. Why? Every patch, they keep kicking the weaker m1 killers in the gut making them weaker and weaker all in the name of global killer nerfs and survivors buffs because 1 or 2 killers are problematic. Playing "nice guy" killer and getting more and more difficult to play. Now we have shoulder the burden which can all but guarantee that m1 killers won't be able to get any eliminations before the endgame if you're in that higher mmr bracket. M1 killers cant compete in the endgame with 4 survivors up unless using the cheap perk NOED.
Nurse and blight are such a problem, and instead of addressing them, they just mass nerf all killers or mass buff survivors to "fix it", but all it does is make underperforming killers perform even worse to the point where it's just complete frustration to play them. What is the effect of this design philosophy? Friendly/fair killers stop playing the game or swap over to being sweaty, or killers just stop playing the underperforming killers and we end up having almost every match always nurse/blight/wesker.
DBD is falling apart because the devs are heavily encouraging fair play killers to quit the game or otherwise play sweaty. That means all we have left are sweaty killers, excessive sluggers, and so on along with a small variety of killers to actually face.
In the end, playing a fair killer just isnt an option anymore unless you want to deal with 4 man teabags st the exit gate every match.
Here's an example of how I typically play.
https://youtu.be/aU9_G7vlDTA?si=qR542CTs74p3OXT- -
The fastest way to kill any game is to provide instant gratification and overly casualize the game even if just a game mode. People generally will always take the easiest fastest gratification option. It ends up killing the quality of the standard game.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
he needs a huge tweak to empower his stalking mechanic and discourage the "Chaseface" strategy since he is a killer meant for ambush downs
I just wish we still had smolface. Smolface was bestface.
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@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858506#Comment_3858506
So a person should not be doing gens but wasting time following him, wow just wow.
Following him isnt wasting time. It's literally ensuring your team wins. On almost every match in dbd, you don't want all 4 people on gens. There's always someone that should be getting the killers attention which buys time for the other survivors to knock out gens. It's just a bit different with ghostie where someone is in charge of ensuring the killer can't use his power. If you have all 4 survivors on gens, you probably have an afk killer.
If anything, we should be appreciating killers who play these low tier killers. They go out of their way to put themselves at a major disadvantage against the survivors, and we get more variety than just seeing nurse and blight every match. If you demand nerfs on the weakest of killers, all you'll end up with is only blight and nurse for the rest of the game's life.
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He is literally one of the weakest killers in the game. Survivors can also entirely eliminate his powers the entire match turning him into the weakest possible killer period - just an m1 killer with no powers.
Your issue here is that you don't want to counter him and instead be left to your own devices. When playing vs ghostie, all you need is for someone to follow him around and keep tabs on him. That's it. He can't go into stealth at all if you have someone dedicated to keeping eyes on him.
He doesn't need nerfs, he needs buffs. Even if he somehow exposes you, he has absolutely zero chase powers or anti loop.
If you're losing consistently to ghosties, I don't know what to tell you other than the problem isn't that he's overpowered.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856779#Comment_3856779
…Send the guard out to patrol and catch the survivors, then act on that information by chasing them himself.
If it's a high priority gen, the survivors working on it are the ones you should be chasing, not ones across the map. Mindlessly damaging it over and over without trying to stop survivors from repairing it won't do anything for you.
and the moment he chases them, another survivor pops right back onto the gen. It's a lose-lose. Either way, the gen is a loss guaranteed. Chase off the survivor, the gen gets worked on. Dare touch it, and that's one less charge. Don't touch it, and that gen gets pushed further to further to 100%. You're expecting survivors to not touch the gen while you chase off survivors - that isn't realistic. In any situation, if you chase, someone else is hopping onto the gen. If you just camp the area, then you're losing all the other gens on the map.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856478#Comment_3856478
As a survivor, you are completely incapable of forcing the killer to aggressively damage generators again and again.
I've seen this video before, and it's a good example of what this system does punish. This Knight is very clearly trying to stall that generator for the sake of stalling that generator, and isn't attempting to use the generator as bait for pursuing their actual objective.
Whether they just didn't realise what they should be doing, or they were making an active choice to try and stall the match out, doesn't really matter. All that Knight needed to do to both play ten times better and completely invalidate the anti-3-gen system was just send that guard out to patrol the area and harass the survivors, not continually damage the gen for no benefit. This system does kind of punish you for mindlessly kicking gens over and over, but I'm okay with that false positive, it can push players into unlearning bad habits.
Gen defence is often misunderstood, I think. I think a lot of killers could do with remembering that it's just a tactic to give you more time to achieve your objective, not your objective in and of itself.
And what was his other option? Just let survivors freely push the gen to completion?
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@jesterkind said:
I don't think this'd be a good change, personally. For one, it'd still allow killers to stall the game quite a bit with a 3-gen, since getting to eight regression events tends to take a while- especially with just kicks.
I've seen the argument about Surge blocking generators before the endgame before, but I'm always a little unsure how you could've gotten eight downs and not had at least most of them convert to hooks. Plus, eight hooks (if it is that many) is extremely likely to have someone dead already, and even if you're going out of your way to spread hooks as much as humanly possible, that's still everyone on death hook.
Do you really need to kick generators when you're that close to winning? I don't see this affecting someone unless they're going for generator stall over their objective, which is what this system was designed to tackle, in the broad strokes.
As a survivor, you can effectively forced a gen to get the 8 gen limit within 6 minutes of a match. That's actually one of the meta strategies. Find an incredibly important gen, such as rpd lobby, repair it, and the moment you hear a tr, just flee. The killer has no choice but to regress the gen or otherwise let it get completed for free. Then once they leave, you immediately hop back on. The center of the map is vital to win, so they'll be patrolling that gen very often, not to mention almost everyone runs through lobby through chases. They either don't regress it and lose the gen, or they regress it, but since it's such a high traffic gen, you can guarantee that the gen is completed or reached 8 regressions within just a few minutes.
Example of said strat. Half the charges gone in 3 minutes.
https://youtu.be/JsA8ApZOCTA?si=IgAbGTRn5_MLMjhv
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855056#Comment_3855056
I'm sorry, but I almost always kill someone around the 6-8 hook, while playing killers that are considered low tier.
I'm playing against people that call themselves comp, so take that as my statement regarding mmr. I'm where they are at.
If I can do it, others can definitely do it as well.
First hooking everyone is not a problem in public lobbies. I don't know why you make it one. Some of the arguably strongest slowdown perks in the game encourage doing it (Grim Embrace / pain resonance). Obviously this depends on the group of survivors, the map and the killer / their skill, but that goes for all things dbd.
And still. It requires that multiple people use this perk, which, as far as I know and see, is not the reality as of now.
So I have another question for you: why is it so bad to have everyone hooked once?
Having all 4 survivors is a large amount of pressure against the killer. That's a load of gen progress getting done. If you're single hooking each survivor first, that's that large amount of pressure existing consistently during the vital part of the match (early and mid). No one on deathhooks means gens getting slammed out since theres no risk or threat for the survivors. If it gets to the mid match, and no one has been eliminated yet, then survivors essentially have all of the power over the killer going into the endgame (assuming survivors are playing optimally and not throwing/being silly). If all 4 survivors are active in the endgame, even if you hook someone, they have everything they need to safely unhook hook anyone and escape. It's pretty vital to have at minimum survivors down to 3 by the middle of the match. If you're spreading hooks evenly, with how fast gens fly in the current game state, you simply won't have enough time to get an elimination by the time endgame begins (unless you're playing nurse/blight as they are just broken and need nerfs). Taking turns just isnt viable for killers, and STB forces killers to do just that. If it's the endgame and all 4 survivors are still up, the game is as good as over for you unless you dedicated your build to end perks like NOED which imho is kind of cheep.
Exception: some killers are overturned and can snowball in the endgame, but the majority of killers don't have this viably such as the m1 killers with no map traversal.
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Fair thiught, but at the end of the day, we know that the competitive scene players definitely have insane looking matches on the regular vs the majority of average gameplay we see, so high MMR definitely is a thing vs low to mid MMR. Is that's high MMR where you see those death squad survivors.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854693#Comment_3854693
It was not intended to be misleading. I am not disagreeing with the idea that those in high MMR might be experiencing SWF more often, but that doesn’t mean that there are more SWF players. Those that may experience SWF every other game or so do not have average matches because they are not an average killer. SWF do technically win more than solo (40%), that’s correct. Average SWF wins 3% more and top 5% MMR wins 8% more.
Clarification, I don't mean your post - i mean the stats themselves are a bit misleading.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
Taking a hit seems like a pretty stupid idea, since being injured means he just downs you with a basic attack anyway. But now you're making extra noises and leaving pools of blood everywhere.
MAYBE that would work with bite the bullet and self care, and you pretend to be a bush.
If he has no power, he's just a dude with a knife. It's literally the easiest and most optimal outcome for a survivor in the entire game. He's even weaker than trapper at that point. If you're having trouble with that, i don't know what to tell you. I might recommend looking up some looping videos. It's really, really important to know how to loop as a survivor - It's something that's mandatory to utilize in this game.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854773#Comment_3854773
You know, I have TRIED to do that, but it turns out, we get into the same problems I already mention.
I break ghost face out of his stealth, he already has me marked 80% of the way. Then he just has to follow me around for like 15 more seconds and can instantly pop his instadown.
Admittedly, I am not a great survivor player and rather suck at looping. But your response to cheap instadowns can't just be something like "just don't go down."
If you are marked at 80%, then someone wasn't following him around. That's definitely needed. Even if you're marked, he's an m1 killer with no chase power. You have a myriad of options to be safe at loops or at the least buy a load of time for gen repairers.
Btw, a fun trick that sometimes works vs ghostie if you know you are 99'd and he's waiting for his cooldown. Get up in his face and keep on him. If he stealths to expose you, you'll instantly clip through him, as a stalking killer loses collision. You'll dissappear off his screen, duck inside his model, and since you're in third person camera, you can instantly reveal him. Now he's stuck having to wait for a cooldown again or just hit you normally and lose all the stalk progress. Doesn't work all the time vs veteran ghosties, but you'd be surprised how often I get away with it.
Vs ghostie is all about denying him his ability to stalk. That's up to the survivors on focusing. You cant let him get stalk off.
If you know you are 99'd, another thing you can do is bodyblock him if he's carrying a survivor. He either has to drop the survivor, get stunned due to a wiggle out, or hit you which dumps your stalk back to 0. If you're 99'd, you can stand at a hook and essentially guarantee that hook is not able to be used unless your stalk is resetdue to a hit.
Even being 99'd, you can weaponize it against ghostie. He usually can't afford to hit you if you're 99'd if he's carrying someone.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854508#Comment_3854508
Ah, so we're justifying unfair mechanics by assuming all gameplay occurs in a SWF comp tourney… How classic.
It's not just comp tourney play. It's literally how you versus ghostie. I was just following up as an example that its not just some random suggestion that everyone is claiming. Even the tournament players acknowledge he is incredibly simple and easy to versus and that's how you do it.
Contrary to your belief, following the killer around doesn't require a competitive match - anyone can do it, and you can entirely shut the killer down to being a meager m1 powerless killer. That in itself is enough to shut down the killer's match. If you want to go overboard, then hop on comms with a team to communicate his whereabouts to really make a point.
The only reason people have issues against him is because they dont want to make the effort to counter him, don't want to look around while doing gens, and so on. It's no different than versusing xeno and refusing to touch turrets. You just have one person following him, and he's entirely powerless.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WZ8L877TPOZO/average-party-size.png
The most common type of SWF is two player, but the 4 man SWF which is what most people refer to as they are deemed to be the most problematic, is extremely small. Statistically speaking they are an outlier.
It's accurate but a bit misleading. The higher the MMR you are at, the more likely you're going against SWFs since SWFs have a ton of potential and are usually more successful than solo queue. High MMR players tend to go against SWFs more consistently than the average player, as at that skill level, they are typically getting matches against other players around that skill level. SWFs thrive at high mmr, while solo queue does not and drops lower. SWFs get more wins than solo queue, so their MMR rises. So when some people say they keep going against SWF sweat squads, that very well could be the case if they at at high MMR, while average players would only see SWFs once every blue moon. Organized SWFs naturally rise to the top.
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DeBecker, quotes are broken at the moment, but this is a response to you.
STB is incredibly strong, so strong that it has to come with a downside. However, killers who DO NOT proxy camp cant take advantage of that downside, so it's just sheer power against fair killers.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854620#Comment_3854620
If they play "nice" , they usually don't tunnel someone. This results in the perk giving almost no value.
They don't need to get the exposed down. They more likely than not didn't lose anything.
This doesn't harm "nice" killers.
As a Pig main, I could not care less about this perk.
This isn't true, though. It affects all killers - tunnelers or not. This allows survivors to force the killer to have evenly spread hooks throughout the match. If you have evenly spread hooks throughout the match and you get into the endgame, as an m1 killer, that's essentially a loss unless the survivors are throwing. M1 killers cant afford to have zero kills during the endgame - even a single kill at that point can mean an easy 3 survivors out. Before STB, a non tunneling killer could at least cycle between 2 or 3 survivors and get someone eliminated by the middle of the match. Now survivors can pretty much guarantee no one is eliminated by the time the 5th gen is done (at least vs m1 killers and assuming thr survivors are at least have competent).
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853215#Comment_3853215
Yes. I’m still seeing many games where multiple survivors are using this perk in coordination:
Sometimes one of the survivors has a bunch of chase perks, and they 100% want you to be tunneling them because they will have the longest chase times. So if the killer tries to chase someone that has zero hook states, the chase perk survivor will start aggressively bodyblocking because they want to take multiple chases, with the knowledge that their teammates would stack STB on them.
SWFs are weaponizing this perk, because the perk can be stacked multiple times on the same survivor.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853450#Comment_3853450
STB should be a high risk high reward perk, but against many M2 killers it's a low risk perk, because those killers can't properly take advantage of the survivor being exposed.
STB should make the survivor broken instead of exposed, so it can be high risk against these M2 killers.
It also kicks nice killers in the gut who don't camp hooks. They can't even take advantage of the exposed status since they arent near the hook camping it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854356#Comment_3854356
i mean that is what 2vs8 did. 1vs4 has perks to increase gen speed when you lose but the corresponding perk are probably considered like among top 10 most worthless perks for survivor. who really runs fast track or Sole survivor? i mean they can buff the perks but i sincerely don't think anyone would use them. Maybe i am wrong.
Cant really use 2v8 as an example. That threw in absolutely unbalanced features all over the place that it's hard to tell if one particular new mechanic was actually good or bad. You had catch up mechanics, but also had instant heals, and 5 second gen repairs.
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Most of the nice guy killers have been pushed away from the game. We keep getting punished every patch to the point where it's just frustrating. That, and normal hook gameplay just isn't feasible when the devs keep punishing killers for hooking survivors (especially share the burden which affects all hooking, not just tunnelers) , so that just brings in more slugging.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853235#Comment_3853235
Doesn't really matter if he's "C-tier" or not. All the tier lists big streamers make are trash anyway. Pretty much every exposed hit this guy gets feels cheap and unearned.
ALL the ghost faces I wind up going against just use a little semblance of stealth to get closer, but it always ends with there being a stare down and them being revealed. Well that's great, you probably say, thinking everything is fine. But the problem? Now my stalk meter is like 80% just from that, so no matter how clumsy and hamhanded they handle their stalking next time, they just get a free down.
At the very least, the devs need to make it so that:
- Ghost face can't stalk you while he's in chase.
- The meter decreases slowly over time like with trickster, or when you reveal him.
- Give him something else to compensate. Faster cooldowns, more speed while sneaking.
Hes one of the easiest killers to go against, though. When ghostie is the killer, all you need is one survivor dedicated to just following him around. He won't get ANY time in stalk. He's literally a powerless m1 killer the entire match - literally being the weakest possible killer in the entire game at that point.
In tournaments vs ghostie, all survivors also don't touch ANY gens when they don't know where he is. They only do gens the moment his position is known and they arent near him. He has no map traversal abilities, so it's always an easy win.
Have one survivor follow him. Survivors only touch gens when his position his known. Easy win. Losing vs a ghostie is always completely up to the survivors.
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@vol4r said:
BHVR can't really increase gen speeds. It's boring to do gens, which means people will get bored even more, which means they will play less. What dev would want that?
Gens need an overhaul and have their own sort of mini-game or something. Longer gen speeds could be for more interesting interactions with the gen as opposed to just holding a button for longer.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854179#Comment_3854179
By embracing what this game has become.
The game was originally designed around being a game of hide and seek, which is clear from how people originally played it. Eventually, it turned into a game of freeze tag, which is what we have today. The problem is that the "freeze" part of the freeze tag, is a bit unfair. The freeze part doesn't last long enough, and when you get "unfrozen" you have to hop on one leg for 30 seconds before you can actually run away properly again, meanwhile you are able to get frozen again.
So basically, my suggestion would be a "time out" when you get unhoked. A guaranteed timeout of some set amount of time, where, you get unhooked, maybe for 30 seconds or 45 seconds. The time doesn't matter too much, that can easily be tweaked, but the general idea is that you can't do anything, as a survivor, you can't work a gen, you can't heal, you can't progress the game. But, in return, you also are immune from anything the killer does, and completely invisible to them, so they don't even know where you are.
After this timeout period, you automatically get fully healed, and are back in the game.
So, yes, you tell that 1 survivor "You are untouchable" but also "you don't get to progress the game for a bit".
I'd also probably couple this with survivors sharing the 1st hook state. That way the earliest you could kill someone from the game is at the 6th hook. Which should be well into the game at that point.
This would be the "simple" fix that they could do, but honestly i think the entire game should be reworked from kills and escapes, to creating a "hope" meter, that is filled by the killer. The survivors still do what they do to attempt to escape, but instead of the killer "killing" the survivors, their ultimate goal is to fill up that meter by doing various actions like hitting survivors, downing them, etc and then if it fills up the entity kills the survivors, meanwhile the survivors goal is to escape before that meter is filled.
That would be much more lore accurate anyway as it is the entire point of the game. It is why the game rewards you so little for camping in terms of bloodpoints.
Ironically i think the old system we had of the different emblem categories did it better than the one we had now, The problem was people still tied kills/escapes to winning and losing rather than pips, which is how it should have been seen. That sort of thing showcases more skill from both sides, because you can't just "gen rush" or "hard tunnel/camp" someone out, otherwise you don't pip.
But anyway, such a rework would likely never happen because its too risky, so the first change would probably be the simpler one to implement that doesn't change the core game too much.
Hmm, so sort of like getting transported to the void (halloween event), but you have to perform some sort of objective while there to get pulled back into the "real world"? I'd imagine there would be a 30 second time limit in there to keep survivors from staying in there indefinitely…and the whole mechanic would disable once the exit gates are powered.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853023#Comment_3853023
we should buff Fast Track to increase the survivor gen speed by 4% every time killer hooks a survivor. Sole survivor should grant 100%/150%/200% healing speed increase for 1/2/3 survivors killed. Number of tokens is increased per tier of the perk. (1/2/3). For example Tier 1 Sole survivor would be 4 →3. Tier 2 would give you 4 →3→2. Tier 3 would be 4 →3→2→1.
they would never add this as base mechanic but they could buff corresponding perks which reward survivor for losing. Fast-track being for gens and Sole survivor being for healing.
The more you punish killers for hooking people, the more killers are going to just slug more often. Is that what we're really wanting?
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Punishing the killer for doing their objective isn't a good idea, imho. You may well punish survivors for every gen they do at that point by survivors getting exposed status or broken if they get 3 gens done. Doesn't make any sense? Exactly.
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It's the devs pushing slugging though. They continue to punish killers for hooking every patch as well as punishing defending gens. They even punish defending hooks (but frankly I think that's a good thing). Killers are running out of options other than to slug. With share the burden, winning via hooks just isn't much of an option at higher mmr where you judt get teams all running the perk. Evenly spreading hooks is a sure fire way to lose at high mmr - someone NEEDS to be eliminated before you start getting into the endgame. If all gens are done and no one is eliminated, it's going to be a loss. Now you can guarantee that happening at higher mmr as a survivor team. Hooking is getting less and less appealing.
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@akaTheBARON said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852136#Comment_3852136
Ok, good note. This kind of gives me a better idea of what range I want to do. I did want to take into an account that with some of these killers, they're essentially M1 killers, but with a different twist, so the ones I start with, a lot of that will carry over. This helped, thanks!
Ill say that putting a lot of time into a weak m1 killer will really up your success rate for almost all other killers. This is because they almost entirely rely on mastering mindgames and loops since they cant depend on any strong powers. If you're a beast at a lowly m1 killer, you'll be a force at a higher tier killer.
I got accused of being a high tier streamer when playing anonymously as an m1 killer not top long ago because they didn't expect an m1 killer to have strong plays.
My point is, don't rush passed all the m1 killers too fast, you'd be surprised how much being forced to focus on mindgames and loops will increase the quality of your matches.
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I don't think anyone seriously believes that. Anything is valid unless you're cheating or playing in a way to make the experience as drawn out and miserable as possible (for example bully squads who refuse to do gens and just do bullying in an attempt to hold the killer hostage until be DCs).
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850721#Comment_3850721
It doesn't though, at least not if the killer has more awareness than a brick.
The perk announces itself when used, so the killer can just switch targets and get someone out of the game early.
It also just switches the "strategy" from tunneling to hard camping, since the survivor who just took the hook state is literally a free kill and hook. I honestly don't think it's suddenly "too hard" for killers to figure this out, since camping and tunneling are literally the go-to (only) strategies some people understand in any capacity.
Problrm here is that its only effective for killers who are proxy camping the hook. It punishes nice killers who entirely leave the hook and allowing for safe unhooks since they are never near enough to the hook to take advantage of the exposed hit. In other words, it rewards proxy camping and punishes not proxy camping.
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@Vishlumbra said:
One idea could be introducing a 'friendship' style Mori, where if the game is already lost, the last two survivors could agree to concede the win to the killer, triggering a unique, collaborative finisher. Personally, I view the finishing Mori as Dead by Daylight’s version of a ‘fatality.’ I love its inclusion—it’s a stylish and satisfying conclusion to the match. Whether I’m playing killer or survivor, I think having a cool finisher adds to the game’s charm and intensity.
Also like, showing "mercy" could provide an extra benefit to the killer. Like some Bloodpoints or whatever.
I've been wanting a "mercy" option for a LONG time. I almost always give last hatch. If the survivors had a rough match, I often let the last two go.
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@CrypticGirl said:
People need to start asking themselves WHY the killer feels the need to do those strategies, and I will tell you right now that its not as simple as "they're just bad".
WHY do Killers need to tunnel? You're right, they don't do it because they're bad. They do it because they can. That's it.
Can ask the top players in the world as well as tournament rules - sometimes tunneling is necessary. Survivors have a LOT of power over killers. The game is designed where if hooks are evenly divided, a LOT of killer selections will lose (especially m1 killers without map traversal abilities).
Want to see ONLY nurse/blight/spirit for the rest of the game's life? Remove tunneling entirely.
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@scoser said:
P100 is a problem because half of all P100 survivors instantly suicide on the first hook because they expect to win every game and rage quit the second the game looks even mildly challenging.
This is definitely my experience. If i see a p100, I can almost guarantee that they will give up on first hook. Bizarre behaviour.
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Killers are balanced around a 60% KILL rate, not a win rate. Having a 60% kill rate (on average around 2.4 kills a match) means on average, they are designed to get a win (3k+) slightly under half of their matches. You already have what you're asking for. In reality, many killers are well UNDER that 60% kill rate which means many of them are underperforming. If you want a 50% win rate, you're asking for killers to get buffs.
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@Alen_Starkly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849504#Comment_3849504
I have seen and witnessed killers with Pain Res hard-tunnel someone out of the game. They don't care.
A possible good solution for tunneling is once a survivor is dead, all killer's slowdown perks get permanently disabled. So, if a survivor gives up early in the game, the other 3 have a decent chance of surviving. If the killer hardcore tunnels someone out, they can say goodbye to pain res and other slowdowns. If the killer plays like a chad, and survivors also play like chads, the killer keeps their slowdowns throught basically the entire match, until someone dies.
Fixing tunneling is easy. I suggested it several times. As long as the exit gates are not powered, once a survivor is unhooked, for 10 seconds, the unhooked survivor is shrouded and becomes invisible, makes no noise, loses all player collision, gives off no scratch marks, makes no pools of blood, and cannot interact with anything. This gives them plenty of time to vacate the area. The killer has NO idea where the survivor went. This gives the survivor plenty of time to get to safety and get a reset. It also prevents healing under hook which usually screws over survivors anyway.
Now, after the reset, if the survivors is spotted again, sure the killer could go after them, but the survivor had plenty of opportunity to get out of danger and reset before hand.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848361#Comment_3848361
it is designed to make killer spread hooks. So if a killer hook player 1 and 2 and they're both on death hook, you can trade a hook trade with player 3/4 to make everyone have equal hook states.
it is not specifically tailor towards hard-tunneling. the perk end up working as anti-tunnel perk if 1 person is focused down but it also works if two player are focused down. The killer now has to hook entire team to win.
Luckily, there is a perk that saves the day. Devour hope. with devour hope, you can ignore this tunneling problem and focus on getting 5 hooks than you mori anyone.
Big problem is that for a lot of killers, spreading hooks is pretty much going to be a loss (mostly m1 killers, especially ones without map traversal such as pig\ghostie\myers). They need to get a kill out early due to how weak they are. This perk alone pretty much screws over the weakest killers. Some of them were already dropping to a 50% kill rate (ie only 2Ks on average once at 50%) - now it's going to go even lower.