RpTheHotrod
RpTheHotrod
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Even as someone who plays a lot of killer, the perk was just unhealthy for the game. I'm glad to see it redesigned.
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I have a feeling they are given xeno the same treatment as SM - make them so bad to play that they practically remove them from the game without actually doing it. The big question is why is BHVR wanting xeno to no longer be played? Xeno hasn't been particularly problematic as far as I've seen.
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Never understood why the perk existed to begin with. I'd be happy to see it go.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892624#Comment_3892624
The changes to heat build up and the amount it takes to remove crawler mode might not even matter if the two turret strat still works
Def seems like these changes lean more toward a nerf than a buff, though there are some buffs in there like faster tunnel exit time, longer killer instinct radius etc.
That's fair, 2 turrets will still guarantee a crawler loss. I wonder if after being burned out if that also takes 13x longer to regain crawler mode? I'd hope not - if so, maybe they want to force killers to use tunnels to get back crawler.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
it’s funny this thread was made days ago and just now the ptb has announced Xeno is getting buffed and changed
Not buffed, it's generally a massively huge nerf. Now you cant realistically lose your heat. Heat dissipation dropped from 25 per second to 2 per second and wont kick in for a multitude of seconds with a very slight increase to max heat buildup to compensate. To put it into perspective, it takes roughly 13x longer to lose your heat, now. The compensation isn't worth it, as the new setup, you're pretty much guaranteed to get dropped out of crawler mode now since the heat pretty much won't ever go away. Every single turret now, even a one second burst, will be problematic. Xeno already was a very low pick, and now they have uber nerfed it further. I feel they are essentially wanting to remove the xeno from the game without actually doing it.
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I mean it's a given it is, but it's just a silly gamemode to take a break from the usual. You can instantly heal people, 3 exit gates, multiple hatches, can literally restore pallets including shack, and so on. All but 1 match on the last week I played it had a single survivor death. I'll admit that as a solo queue that can loop well, I would go out of my way to get the killers attention if they were ever chasing someone on death hook (and intentionally give them an easy target and gain my first hook if necessary), but any survivor could do that anyway. The only killer that gave anyone trouble was legion.
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@PleaseRewind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890276#Comment_3890276
This is why I HATE the down vote button. Like why? I'm just sharing what I felt at the time. Why do people so feel so negative about my feelings? Negative feedback with no input.
I've had massive downvotes when I someone had complained about a perk and I replied with a hard counter that eliminates it entirely from a threat. Some people are going to downvote just because it's an option even if doing so makes no sense.
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If you feel you vsnt followup a hit with another in a chase try mixing in a nurse's calling with your sloppy - good way to catch people healing off guard with the longer heal times.
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Thematically the xeno judt doesn't work. They are supposed to be a stealthy hunter, but it has no innate stealth capabilities, and the survivors can set up turrets that eliminates its stealth attempts even if the killer uses stealth perks. Xenomorphs are also known for their speed and agility which doesn't reflect in the game whatsoever. Essentially, it's a xeno in visual design only. The tunnels are a very cool addition, at least. A lot more interesting than doggo teleports.
At the very least, it should have gotten the ability to leap onto a wall or ceiling using the same tech of singularity pods and then become undetectable while hanging from such a position and then be able to pounce down from said location on an unsuspecting survivor.
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With less people doing go next, I'm quite curious how much kill counts will drop on statistics.
That being said, if someone gives up on hook early instead of leaving a bot for their team, I usually declare the match a bust right then and there and let the remaining survivors escape, or I'll stop on their second hook then let them go. Sucks that they are gutted from the beginning because of someone with a lack of sportsmanship.
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@CryptoCoder said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891799#Comment_3891799
It is an exploit. The killer is exploiting a system that was intended to fix/discourage face camping, by using it to their advantge Knowing that if the surv escapes, there is almost a 100% guaranteed second hook for that player. So, if the killer decides you specifically are going back to lobby, there is NOTHING you can do about it.
The 120 I mentioned was a speed (120%), not duration, although I'm not actually sure how fast haste actually is. In the original post, I mentioned 45 seconds duration at most. I understand that is a long time and this can also be abused by swfs but the point of the post is to have a discussion about how it could be countered by the person it's happening to. We both know that in soloq, if you're being camped, almost every time you look up and not ONE person is doing a gen. So yes in theory, you're correct, but what does that matter when you are the one going back to lobby? How does that help you?If it was an exploit, they'd just make it impossible to do…similar to how pyramid head works. Facecamping is entirely allowed, but there are game mechanics to at least discourage it - it comes at a cost and risk to the killer, but it's still absolutely allowed. Not an exploit.
For speed, thanks for the clarification. To give you an idea, the survivor perk hope is a mere +7% which is almost enough to completely outrun a killer - it takes a killer QUITE some time to catch up to them. Here was Background player when it used to be +100% haste. 120% would just be ludicrous. (unless you meant +20%), but even then…that's 3 times faster than hope!
https://youtu.be/5ywFY8YrWzw?si=w1kXd56_C1XK5q9p -
Killer main here, well, I suppose it's more like 60% killer and 40% survivor with almost entirely being survivor for the past few months. These would be way too strong for killer. We need to be reducing the amount of aura readings in the game, not increase them. Mindgames make the game interesting. Guaranteed info makes it less so.
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I think generators are better than oooo spoopy skerry "magic" because generators are familiar to us, and to turn what we would normally find comfort in (the norm) and turning it on its head to be a fear point (working on a generator while under threat) is far scarier psychologically than force feeding something that we told to expect is already "scary" (oooo, totems...weird symbols...magic…) when it is not. It's like practical effects over cgi. Practical just feels more real because it actually is more real than cgi - it feels more familiar, like we can reach out and touch it. It'll always be scarier than cgi where we innately know it's fake in every way imaginable and in turn not actually be scared by it. Working on a generator while a killer stalks feels far more tangible and real than working on "magic" because we can actually relate to having cold hard machinery in our hands. We already know it - we are already familiar with it, we are comfortable with it, and now it's a danger.
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First it's not an exploit, it's just a terrible move by the killer that likely leads to him losing since it provides absolutely zero gen pressure.
Second, 120 seconds of haste is beyond unacceptable, not to mention being literally immune to all damage during that time for a hit. Thats an entire 2 minutes of bodyblocking potential and location reporting risk free.
All this does is add another way for being hooked to be weaponized. You should not be rewarded with super speed and god mode for 120 seconds just because you were hooked and the killer was facecamping. Being facecamped is already a massive boon for your team already - absolutely zero gen pressure which is practically a win handed to the survivors unless the killer is banking on endgame perks like noed.
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This would be like playing kingdom come deliverance and demanding the devs add sniper rifles and laser guns. Ifnyou really want to be on the offensive, consider killer or otherwise call of duty or something. The game is literally about trying against all odds to survive against a ruthless killer. It's even in the game name - dead by daylight.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890657#Comment_3890657
What the heck are you on? If he's chasing someone to the hook, then obviously no one else can rescue either, because now literally the WHOLE LOBBY is at the hook.
I'm going to assume you are pulling my leg. If by some bizarre circumstance you are not, I recommend looking up some videos on how to do contested hook saves - it'll open up your gameplay far, far more.
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Edit - forum glitch
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890645#Comment_3890645
Bubba is STILL a problem with the whole camping bit. This system literally does nothing to prevent him from running behind a survivor going for the unhook and doing the exact same thing as without the system.
It allows wiggle room. If he's chasing a survivor to hook, that survivor isn't in a position to unhook, but it leaves ample room for other survivors to rescue. With a camping bubba, he just has to sit there and powerup when anyone approaches and not much can be done about it.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
I don't think the bar should fill FASTER, but the range is definitely way too pathetic. I'd suggest slowly increasing the range up to 32 meters over a period of 50 seconds.
The thing is that proxy camping is MORE powerful than face camping. The anti-camp mechanic pretty much only taught killers that want to camp how to be good at it. Because the only thing a killer has to do is just be somewhat close to the hook. As soon as they see a survivor going for the save, they can be right there to interrupt, and some killers have instadowns or the ability to hit multiple survivors at once. So this also still enables tunneling.
Even if the camp "fails" .. well, it simply doesn't. You get free hits and free pressure from uncoordinated teams that aren't on comms. The only way to get even a remotely safe save from a camping killer is if one person ultra-stealths to the hook and isn't seen nearby. Then someone else has to get kind of close and briefly take the killer's attention. Even in this scenario: the killer is already in a chase with said distraction person. And they can still quickly go back to the hook and immediately resume a chase with either the person who unhooked or the person who was just unhooked and tunnel them out.
It's not to prevent proxy camping, at all. It's to prevent facecamping. It's mostly entirely designed around stopping bubba from being a problem with his aoe one shot kill on demand power.
It serves it's purpose. I have not seen a single facecamping killer since it's inception with the exception of one, and that survivor successfully self unhook hooked and eventually escaped the match.
If the killer isn't just within 1-4 meters then it's pretty much completely unrelated to facecamping.
What the OP wants is an anti camping feature in the game, but that doesn't exist. Killers protecting hooks is one of their literal tasks.
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They are pretty darn useful already. I usually weaponize them by NOT using them. If you have enough game sense to know when the killer is coming your way while you're on a gen, leaving a bit early usually has them assuming your are hiding nearby, and they'll waste a lot of time checking empty lockers.
They are also very handy in a pinch during a chas especially if you have quick and quiet.
They are great at slowly getting into them if the killer is coming your way and doesn't know that you're there. They usually don't bother to stop and check for lockers unless they think someone is there.
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I may be completely misunderstanding your post here, but it seems you want MMR to be different for the killer per killer they play?
That's currently how it is but to a certain degree. Essentially, every killer gets its own MMR ranking, so if you play a new killer, you'll be in a lower bracket. HOWEVER, once your MMR crosses a certain threshold on any of your killers (or is it the average of all your killers, I forget), there is a minimum MMR base that you cannot go under. This is to prevent an experienced players that knows the general gameplay from being matched up against new players. Essentially, while you may be hopping over to a brand new killer, you still have some general experience on how the game goes, so it isn't a complete reset of your MMR.
Long story short, every killer you play gets it's own MMR rating, but all your killers also somewhat share a bit of MMR to prevent you from having a complete MMR reset and going against brand new players.
Lets say MMR was 0-100. 0 is a brand new player. 100 is a master lets say you mastered one killers so you're at 100. If you jumped over to a new killer you've never played before, the MMR might drop to 50 to give you some wiggle room to learn the character and climb back up, but won't let you drop below 50 against genuine lower MMR players.
This is also why you can't swap killers in the lobby. The players loaded in were matchmade on your killers MMR. Swapping killers would invalidate the whole MMR matchmaking for that match, so swapping killers isn't allowed.
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How about a compromise...why not have BHVR classifying each perk for example, perks relating to gen progression is a gen progression classification. Looping perks are a looping classification. Healing perks are a healing classification. We would then be able to see what classifications our teammates have equipped without specifically seeing their perks. We know Benny over there is a looper, and we know Sammy over there is running heals. Samantha over there is running a gen progression and heal build.
Less likely to dodge if all classifications are inherently useful. We could at least plan our build...if we have someone who only has healing classification on, then we might swap out our heal perks with looping perks.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890077#Comment_3890077
First off, I appreciate the civil tone of your responses! It's refreshing to have a discussion without condescension or hostility. :)
I think one of the main issues I have with understanding where you're truly coming from, is regarding the points about SWF. From your posts, it seems you view high-tier SWFs as the baseline for survivor strength rather than an outlier. You do acknowledge that Nurse and Blight are exceptions to the rule, yet don’t seem to extend that same logic to top-tier SWFs. My issue with this is that I can make the exact same argument in reverse: If an experienced SWF can "stomp" killers using their tools and coordination, then an experienced Nurse or Blight can do the same. Both are outliers, not the standard experience.
Statistically, high-level SWFs win about 8% more than solo survivors, but they still remain under a 50% win rate even in the top 5% of players. That suggests they are far from an instant win button and are less common overall. To me, these highly skilled SWFs are the survivor equivalent of a strong Nurse or Blight player, both are extreme ends of the skill spectrum. That's why I struggle to follow when conversations use top SWFs as proof of survivor strength while excluding Nurse and Blight as proof of killer strength, and are only considered as exceptions. If feels like a double standard. In my opinion, if we’re going to use SWF success as proof of survivor potential, then we need to do the same with Nurse and Blight success for killers.
I'm happy we agree with the need for more survivor-side tools for learning/practice, like killer bot matches or tutorials for both roles. The knowledge gap between roles is massive, and it’s only growing with every update. I feel It’s unrealistic for new players to enter the game as Solo and perform well, when the learning curve is so much steeper than for a killer playing a single character, simply due to the amount of control that you do and don't have between the two. I would like SoloQ to have better incentives compared to SWF, especially as the expectations for survivor performance and knowledge keep increasing, thus making the standards for perfoming well higher and higher.I think it's better for the game as a whole, and can help with many frustrations for both roles. (less DC's please!)
Your opinion on, "100% skill, knowledge, and experience," SWF has the clear advantage (excluding Blight and Nurse) feels contradictory, due to what I've already mentioned before. If we’re excluding Blight and Nurse because they’re exceptions, why isn’t a fully optimized SWF with 100% knowledge, skill, and experience considered an exception too? Why is one removed from the equation while the other is used to define the rule? Despite them both being statistically uncommon?
Overall, I think we agree on quite a few things and we may be on opposite opinions of others, but I’ve enjoyed hearing your thoughts. For clarity, I will explain as well that I am not entirely sure where I stand on SWF or Blight/Nurse. It feels like you need both because the other exists, and if you took one away then the other would completley dominate. And at the same time, it's because they exist that it holds back buffs or perks etc. that would greatly benefit the majoirty. Maybe some kind of ranked mode where only certain perks, killers, items, and add-ons etc. can be used,? And those same killers, items, perks, add-ons etc. are restricted from the standard mode? I'm not entirely sure. But I agree that in top tier play, both have potential to be unfair and unfun.
(I really have enjoyed this back and forth and I mean no disrespect to you or your opinions and if any of my points feel that way please know it's not my intent, sometimes tone can be tricky in text format) 🙈
I see where you're coming from, and it's an interesting perspective, but the biggest difference is that the tools available to survivors are basekit for the entirety of the playerbase. Nurse and Blight are very specifically a balance problem for those very specific killers and isn't a basekit problem for all of the killer roster. Survivors' potential and its problems applies to the entire side. Nurse\Blight potential and their problems are very specifically them and not a problem with killer balance as a whole.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889684#Comment_3889684
I admit I do have some trouble trying to follow some of the reasoning. The idea that survivors have all the tools to succeed while killers inherently do not is simply not supported by evidence. I truly believe if that were true, we wouldn’t see killers achieve 1000+ winstreaks, nor do I think we would see them win in matches where they play 100% perkless and only rely on the killers built in power. I think both roles are designed with the tools they need for a chance of winning. (though that's not to exclude the need for improvements for diffrent factors/tools/mechanics etc. in the game)
I don't agree with the claim that survivors can be 'unbeatable,' to then immediately contradict it by admitting that Nurse and Blight exist and are exceptions to that very rule. I feel that alone disproves the idea that killers don’t have the tools to succeed, if they truly didn’t, then there wouldn’t be 'exceptions' that dominate at all levels of play. But again, statistically all killers are performing well, and that's not exclusive to those on the top of Tier lists. Every killer is statistically winning more than they lose (which is good!)
To be honest, the claim that survivors just need to put in effort to win does rub me the wrong way as I feel it ignores a major disparity: killers have multiple ways to practice. You can practice in customs or against bots with every perk in the game, and against every perk in the game regardless if you own it, and any map of your choosing. Survivors have no way to practice counterplay outside of live games. Learning counters to 38 killers, plus all perks, add-ons, and playstyles, is a trial-by-fire experience. In addition you have to learn the fundamentals of survivor, primarily looping, which is a skill and takes time and practice to be good at. Saying survivors 'just don’t want to make the effort' comes across as dismissive when killers have significantly more resources available for improvement. By that logic, should every struggling killer just play Nurse? She’s free, and shes the most powerful thing in the entire game. Why couldn't that be considered "practicing all the tools made available to them"? If you apply that standard to survivors, it should also apply to killers, but I don't agree with that because everyone has preferences and natural strengths and weaknesses.
Ultimately, we may just disagree at a fundamental level. Every kind of statistical evidence, along with both my personal experience, contradicts the idea that killers always lack the tools to succeed while survivors always have them. Survivors and killers both require skill, experience, and game knowledge to perform well. And while the game is designed with killers in favor for the power role, that (usually) doesn't diminsh the effort it takes to get those wins, nor does it (usually) diminish the effort it takes to survive in a role that is designed with intentional lower odds.
Thanks for the discussion though! Even if we don't agree I appreciate your perspective!
"Learning counters to 38 killers, plus all perks, add-ons, and playstyles, is a trial-by-fire experience."
100% agree. Survivors have a LOOOOOOOOT to learn - a massive amount to learn - in order to reliably succeed on the regular. Putting time into that will absolutely show positive results, but there isn't a lot of people with that much patience or time. There's a reason that a lot of the community says that 500 hours of DBD means you are no longer a "beginner". While that seems "the accepted truth" in DBD, putting that logic vs other games…the reality of it is just bonkers…most people don't even PLAY games for 500+ hours, ha. The point though is, by design, the survivors literally have the advantage over the killers (talking SWF here considering the game is balanced around SWF), but the amount of experience it takes to reliably do that isn't exactly fair….scratch that…isn't remotely fair for the casual playerbase (which is why BHVR tends to balance around the average player and not vs the experienced players). That's why so many high tier players who play killer complain, but their requests go ignored - BHVR isn't balancing around high tier play - they are balancing around the average player. So it's true that survivors absolutely have all the tools to just stomp killers, but it's unrealistic to expect the average player to ever get enough experience on survivor to ever reach that point. As for players who excel at DBD and move beyond the average player, they start falling into broken balance territory which won't be changed to avoid hurting the average player base. So generally, it's a skill issue, sure, but the amount of time it takes to invest to overcome killers on the regular most players simply either aren't willing or aren't able to apply. Again, 500 hours is becoming "decent" at the game…a claim that would be ridiculous in 99% of the games out there but rings true in DBD.
"I don't agree with the claim that survivors can be 'unbeatable,' to then immediately contradict it by admitting that Nurse and Blight exist and are exceptions to that very rule."
There are always exceptions to rules, that's what makes them exceptions. There's also the phrase of the exception that proves the rule.
"To be honest, the claim that survivors
just need to put in effort to windoes rub me the wrong way as I feel it ignores a major disparity: killers have multiple ways to practice."I seriously feel that survivors should have the ability to do killer bot matches to practice outside of the tutorial. It'd be awesome if BHVR came out with some ingame scenarios on looping and such - even if they outsourced it to volunteer players to put it together for them.
"Every kind of statistical evidence, along with both my personal experience, contradicts the idea that killers always lack the tools to succeed while survivors always have them. Survivors and killers
bothrequire skill, experience, and game knowledge to perform well."You have have misunderstood this point. I'm talking about if you assume 100% skill, knowledge, and experience, and both teams have that, the SWF has the clear advantage over an equal level killer. Teamwork and the tools survivors have simply trump the majority of killers (nurse\blight being the exception). The trick is having that skill, knowledge, and experience…which as I mentioned the average player will not. I'm just saying design-wise, survivors do have the upper-hand. The rest is up to the players to utilize those tools appropriately to succeed. Some are crazy good at it - some dedicated SWFs have 500+ wins in a row.
I appreciate the well mannered discussion. Nice to see on the forum - even if we don't see eye to eye. Cheers!
Edit - While I claim to be a killer main, my playtime is more like 60% killer 40% survivor, and over the past 2 months, I've only played survivor.
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I'm a big fan of stealth perks on nemesis because it's just scary just doing your thing and suddenly hearing STOMP STOMP STOMP right behind you without any terror radius music going off.
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Slugging in general isn't an issue. Slugging then leaving all players slugged just for spite and letting them slowly bleedout imho isn't acceptable. Bear in mind, there are some cases where even 4 man Slugging is required, but that's only if the survivors force it by all being under a pallet or something similar. In general, I'm in favor of BHVR's thoughts of adding a surrender option if everyone is slugged.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889768#Comment_3889768
I can understand this rule. It makes sense. I would assume this isnt common business knowledge, but maybe its just me lol.
I will always shame cheating, but this rule makes sense. Ty.
Absolutely. Something it helps to peak under the hood on some of the seemingly unusual choices made from companies.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
The response is 'Dont shame the cheater.' Im floored.
For what it's worth, that's fairly standard protocol on gaming forums. I have 20 years of game forum moderator experience, and nearly every one of them had that rule set up. It's not to protect cheaters, but to mitigate risk of people being publicly and falsely accused of cheating when they actually weren't. It's a blanket rule across the board - not a protection to certain individuals.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889680#Comment_3889680
I quit the game, actually. I still keep up with it, and I like to talk to people here, but I don't play anymore and probably won't play significantly again unless something changes.
Since it is not possible to completely remove the advantage from SWF, it's likely that Solo Q may only receive a 5% bump. The difference between High MMR 4-man and High MMR Solo is about 10%, but the biggest advantage for SWF, imo, is being able to pick your teammates.
Indeed, P100 means nothing. I had a P100, but I was not a good Survivor. Willie is good, but I always thought he was a specialist, maybe he has expanded.
It's been about 8 or 9 months since I played DBD, I think and probably a year or more since I played consistently. I'm somewhat sure I could win most of my matches, but I don't have much of a reason to go back to DBD, at this point
Fair, I have taken a killer break ever since shoulder the burden hit the PTB. I primarily focus on the underdog killers (ie ghostie, deathslinger, pig, etc…), and considering I play "nice" as a killer, I just didn't want to deal with the inevitable 4 man STB sweat squads. Just been doing survivor, but even then, the killer just doesn't feel like much of a threat. As long as you are good at looping, do checkspots, and so on, it's just more of the same. Heck, I played a bunch of 2v8 last week (I never did any of the challenges for 2v8, so I was burning through them the last day of the deadline), and the majority of the matches had a single survivor death. Probably going to step away from the game for some time and come back to see if any changes are made. I see their upcoming "health" update, so I'll keep tabs on that, at least.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889638#Comment_3889638
I completely agree that arguing based on perfect play is pointless since nobody plays perfectly. My issue with the original argument wasn’t about perfection, it was about the way they framed it. Saying that 'killers only win if survivors make mistakes' was presented as a negative, when in reality, the role that makes fewer mistakes should win. That’s how competition works.
I also don’t expect perfection, and I agree that it’s unrealistic to base balance discussions on that. But if someone’s argument is that 'the only way to win is to play flawlessly,' then that already says something, especially when it also implies that even if survivors do play flawlessly (which is impossible), they still shouldn’t win.
Beyond all this, statistics show that killers are succeeding, even when mistakes happen (which is good!). We should acknowledge that stats need nuance but every piece of non-anecdotal data we have shows that killers perform well, including in high MMR. And since nobody plays perfectly—not killers, not survivors, not even bots lol, It’s impossible to prove that a flawless killer will still lose, just like it’s impossible to prove that a flawless survivor will still lose. That’s why the argument itself doesn’t hold up because it’s based on an impossible, hypothetical standard rather than what actually happens in real games.
I believe the statement generally reflects that at the core, survivors have all the tools available to them to always succeed and killers do not. True, nobody plays perfectly, but survivors have the capability of being unbeatable, while killers inherently do not. In other words, if a survivor just simply cannot win, it's because they need to improve on their skillsets provided to them, not because it's impossible to win. Regardless, I do feel that nurse\blight is an exception to this - I genuinely do think they are fundamentally broken and unfair towards survivors at all levels. That is just my opinion, however. Beyond that, I feel that a lot of survivor complains about killers being impossible to beat comes down to just needing more experience. I used to get my butt HANDED to be as a survivor until I went out of my way to truly learn the game - that opened a LOT of possibilities and my success rate shot up after I started mastering looping, check spots, seeing hook states as a resource, and so on instead of just seeing "gen" as "the" gameplay. I just feel that many in the community don't want to make that effort. Just in the thread recently, I made the comment that certain perks have counters that can be used to overcome them, and boy did the community hate that idea - just downvotes upon downvotes. Survivors seriously have a lot of power - if one works on practicing all the tools made available to them, their gameplay would improve significantly.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889364#Comment_3889364
I did stream, on occasion. Some people here watched it and saw what I did, they have some basis for why I think the way I do.
The average game held nothing of any note for me. No challenges, no enjoyment, no learning. So, I started playing in scrim nights for a bit, which was enlightening. I competed in one of the Community Cups, didn't get far enough to be streamed, I don't think, but fun all the same. Played against a couple good comp teams in pubs, didn't exactly blow through them, but I did perform well.
All this to say, I know what I am talking about. I have not seen anyone employ that strategy to any real boon. It is rather like old PGTW. It would often let you "win harder" and turn games you would've won into landslides. I have seen it done in comp, and against me in scrims. When it worked, the Killer was already on the back foot and likely going to lose. It had little to no effect often though, as committing one person to babysit a gen is a tall task amongst opponents of equal skill.
I hardly think that anyone will recommend Solo Q to 99 a gen for the whole match. That would simply be ludicrous. A team with no communication can hardly pull that off consistently. If you are doing that, you are not helping your team in the rest of the match, which is not great.
Seems likely to me that you are simply playing against players worse than you.
I agree that 99's a gen for a whole match is ludicrous. Not sure where you got that idea from, but yeah….probably a terrible idea. Naturally, doing a 99 decoy gen is only relevant while there's PR triggers available. Once the decoy eats the 4 PR hits, then leaving it 99'd is pretty pointless.
Why quit streaming? I've considered doing it myself. I usually just do yt videos. I'm a bit too asocial for streamer content - I play too much for the game and less for a "crowd", ha.
As for a team communication, like I mentioned, the game is balanced around SWF in mind, so communication is expected. When solo queue comes into play, it throws everything off. I think we can ALL (I'm looking at you, killer mains) agree that solo queue is inherently at a disadvantage. I'd imagine a lot of killer kills are from taking advantage of that inherent disadvantage. If the solo queue disadvantage was somehow removed, I'd imagine kill rates would likely be far, far less lower than they are.
As for me playing vs players worse than me, you can say that about every player in the game - the MMR sometimes works, and sometimes it completely fails. I'll say I've faced off against One Pump Willie and such, so I'd imagine if you consider him worse than me, it's quite the compliment…so thanks, I guess? Outside of a few popular names I've faced, most of my matches are P60-P100 squads. Sometimes I get a few full blown 4 man P100 squads, but let's face it, you can still have poor players that are P100.
Try hopping back into streaming. If you're as good as you claim to me, I'd swing by sometime. Watching someone better then the professional dbd players would be quite the treat. I'm always up for improving.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889260#Comment_3889260
Eh, Killers still kill over 50% against "High MMR 4-mans"
Likewise, whilst I played, I was winning the VAST majority of my matches, even against competitive players like those on Misery. It would be statistically impossible for me to not be in the highest bracket, not that it means anything since MMR is useless.
In competitive, this was also not a winning strategy, in most matches. It merely wasted Survivor time that they often could not spare. It only helps you win harder, as it were.
Suffice to say, I am not convinced of anything in your explanation except that you think you know quite a bit and are more sure of yourself than even I would be, in your stead.
I mean, you can disagree with me all you like. My basis is based off of strategies and techniques of some of the most experienced players in the game. I just took those as a learning process and applied them to my own games and it has made a tremendous difference in win rates. If you disagree with those players who practically bleed DBD, then hey, maybe you know better than them. Perhaps you could join some of their teams and show them the ropes. There's room for improvement no matter the level of experience. If you genuinely know better that who many consider to be the best players in the game, then that is incredibly impressive. Should start steaming, you'd make one heck of a following.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888901#Comment_3888901
So, I never said or implied that PR was impossible to counter. In fact, the counter is nearly trivially easy, because you just let go as the killer hooks and then get back on the gen after it explodes. That also counters DMS.
You don't need a literal comp level team with coordination to do so, and I stand by the facts that I gave that 99 ing a gen as a "counter" is just the worst play in basically every scenario.
But the fact that you have to go back to a video from November 2022 says a lot. They knew the killer up front. They knew the map up front. They had an entire slew of perks that have since been nerfed. Dead hard, prove, distortion to name a few. Most of the tiles, tile logic, and pallets on those maps have also since been nerfed. You gonna go back to 2016 and claim that insta completing gens with BNP or perma sabo is still a viable strat?
Does your "people just don't want to learn to counter" apply to everyone? Prove got nerfed because people didn't want to learn to pressure more than one survivor. Distortion got nerfed because people can't use game sense, context, scratch marks, and every other cue to find survivors. Maps and pallets got nerfed because people can't learn to use bloodlust correctly, loop tiles properly, or zone survivors.
I'm not sure where you got on this tangent, but this doesn't have anything to do with pain res anymore.
Look, I'm not trying to sound insulting, but I'd just suggest you'd read how PR works before discussing further. You're going off a misunderstanding of how PR works. Letting go of the gen just before they get hooked doesn't counter the perk at all, it still loses its progress. All Letting go does is avoid a particular perk combo which locks the gen, but that's an entirely different topic.
You're correct you don't need a comp level team. You're reinforcing what I'm saying here. I'm saying that's simply how to counter PR. Anyone can do it, you just need enough experience to know what the counter is and how to use it. Many people cry foul saying PR is overpowered. Thats just a lack of experience. I'm just saying what the counter is so people learn more and have improved survivor matches. PR isn't a big deal and it's easy to invalidate it. DBD has a LOOOOOT of stuff to learn - it isn't newcomers friendly due to so many variables being in the game. You got core mechanics, tons of perks, tons of killers each with their own counter - even people with 10,000+ hours still learn new stuff. The entire game is about getting more experienced and learning how to effectively counter your opponent. Every single one of us needs more experience, and as we gain that experience, we become better players. I'm not saying you're a newbie, for example. I'm sure you've played a while. I'm just saying after more experience, you'll come to realize PR does have a hard counter and utilizing it will trivialize its presence in the match. Learning new things is a good thing. Heck, I'm 2,000 hours in and I STILL learn things. Thats part of the process, not an insult.
The video could be 5 years old or 5 days old - doesn't matter. The point of the video is experienced players don't just hold m1 on a gen. I'm just showing that even to the most experienced players, adapting to the match is the key to success. PR is something to adapt to. If you do, you trivialize it. You're accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about, so I'm just pointing you to a video that even the most experienced players in the game have to adapt to what comes at them. As fornyou bringing up BNP and sabotage, now you're just going way off topic trying to change the subject.
As for your '"people don't want to learn to counter" apply to everyone" question, I'm having a hard time believing you're genuinely asking this question, but I'll humor you. Naturally it doesn't apply to people actually adapting and countering. I'm referring to people who just want to hold m1 on gens and get upset when something easily countered prevents them from continuing from just holding m1 all match.
It's not a difficult concept: succeeding in DBD and becoming a better player is all about gaining experience and utilizing that experience to counter and overcome challenges that impede your progress. The fact that you refute this, well, I don't know what to say other than what I said previously...just keep playing and once you get more experience, you'll start understanding that counters exist and utilizing them will be a springboard towards more successful matches.
You can see there's an issue of people not wanting to adept with downvotes over the statement that the game requires people to learn and adapt to challenges. A lot of people don't want that (as you can clearly see from the votes). They just want a streamlined path of success. In DBD, it's just not going to cut it regardless of how much they want to downvote the idea of overcoming challenges. We have literally had people post that killers are OP because survivors can't outrun the killer. Is that the case? Of course not - they just need more experience to start learning how looping works, the difference between slow/medium/fast vaults, and so on. With PR (or any perk for that matter), it's no different. There are counters, and it all comes down to learning how to deal with them. Occasionally we will have a problematic perk that definitely needs rebalanced, but PR is one of those basic learning experiences to put under your belt. Bam, now you're even better equipped to be a rockstar survivor completely invalidating PR for your team. Thats strength! The alternative is just bashing your head on that vital gens in the center that is constantly getting blown to pieces by PR then being stressed out over it declaring the perk is broken. Thats just not realistic.
Edit- typo fixin'
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888901#Comment_3888901
As someone with that all elusive "more experience", the only time I have ever seen that employed was during scrims and "competitive" matches.
I cannot recall ever having seen that strategy employed to ANY success in pubs.
If you're not seeing it in your matches, then you're likely not in the mmr where people are taking advantage of the hard counter. You'd greatly benefit your team if you'd set up and run the counter yourself, though if you're not in a swf, the others may not realize what you're doing and accidentally sabotage the team allowing PR to affect vital gens again. One of the problems with solo queue is a lack of communication which is something I feel most of us wants to have addressed. I know they refuse to do voice chat, but I'd love to see some pre-made text prompts you can do (ie hit chat key, then 1 is gen related which then prompts other choices such as finish gen, don't finish gen, I'm doing gen, etc...) for example, you could hit V (for chat) 1 1 when aiming at a gen and it'll say Finish that gen. Or V 1 2 for don't finish that gen. Etc...
The game is balanced around SWFs, they generally innately have communication. Adding a chat kind of pre-made comms would allow people to communicate in a limited form to/from solo queue players. This would end up making survivors stronger than they already are, so BHVR would have to keep an eye on how it affects killer gameplay. I have a feeling a lot of killer kills are due to solo queue kills with their inability to properly interact with the team in a way the game is balanced around (SWF).
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888684#Comment_3888684
Since I can't make the point any clearer, best of luck to you in your matches.
No worries, you'll figure it out eventually with more experience. Great way to essentially force the killer into having one less viable perk in the match.
One of the problems we have at the moment are players who go up against a particular playstyle and refuse to adapt to counter it - expecting to play how they always play every time to always work for them then cry foul when throwing themselves at a wall didn't work. That goes for both sides. Survivors playing a particular way - the killer needs to adjust accordingly. Killer playing a certsin way, the survivors need to adjust accordingly. If PR is being run, and survivors keep throwing themselves at a center gen while its constantly getting nuked to 0% are likely going to fail. That doesn't mean PR is OP, that means the survivors did not bother to counter it. A problematic hex totem? Dont pretend it doesn't exist, find it and destroy it. Ghostface in the match? Dont just keep your heads down and staring at the gen - keep a keen eye out and have one survivor dedicated to keeping tabs on him and revealing him. The matches success is always about adaptability. You're welcome to watch tournaments of some of the best players - they all play VERY differently depending who the killer is and what he's running. While the below isn't a tournament, it showcases how a professional team faced off against a ghostie.
https://youtu.be/5LJ_lC7-VJM?si=RyjDP9xkL46YBYZqYou'll notice immediately that they don't play their normal routine, they specifically changed their gameplay to counter the ghostie. Playing vs PR is no different. Adapt or face a rough match. The fact that such a statement is downvoted just shows how much players really don't want to make the effort to counter anything. I can promise yall that starting to actually put effort into your matches and adapting to what challenges come will make for a much more positive experience for you. Just try it. Instead of just holding m1 on a gen the entire match expecting success, consider what is going on around you and how you can counter it. Survivors have all the tools in the world to overcome the killer. That's the challenge - that's the fun. It's a far more dynamic experience.
Bear in mind, the game is balanced around SWF, so if you solo queue, it will be a lot more challenging. You'll essentially need to bring your A game and be able to hold your own. You'll want to learn how to efficiently loop. You never know how experience your teammates are, so you'll probably need to do the countering all by yourself. If you see no one is countering, then you'll need to. If they are countering, then you have room to do gens and such. What's rough is when you're countering but others don't realize you are and can ruin it. Thats a problem with solo queue - it's innately weaker than swf. Sadly, the game just isnt balanced around solo queue, so it'll be harder to succeed. Communication with teammates is key, so hopefully we have some sort of way to do so in the future. Solo queue needs some love.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888669#Comment_3888669
this perk can actually be very beneficial in soloQ too, but with people basically griefing soloQ matches quite often, you can't get any proper value out of it there
I'm pretty decent at looping and evading the killer. I usually have to end up getting the killer's attention and take a hook state to avoid someone else from getting eliminated. STB has been helpful to be able to use my ability to loop well to the teams advantage. If I can evade the killer, then I'm at less risk of being downed and eliminated while it saves the other survivors who are more likely to be downed some extra wiggle room in their hook states.
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When you compare what other killers have in their kits, gf is a joke. He needs to have the drop leg knife sheath entirely basekit at the very least.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888451#Comment_3888451
I mean, we agree that it's apparently MMR dependent, but I mean it in a different context than you implied you do.
Cause to me, that's some "wood tier" level of strategy.
So, if the killer isn't running PR, and you leave a gen 99'd, you're just playing into regression. That gen can be hit by surge, pop, or even a dry kick and you're giving up progress for literally no reason.
Even if they are running the perk, are you planning to finish that 99'd gen?
Because finishing it means that not only are you still having to repair the regression from PR, but you're giving up maximum value. Instead of "at most 20% progress", you're choosing to give up that maximum 20% progress. Not to mention you can simply stop regression if it hits the gen you're working on, as opposed to extra regression value of a 99'd gen in a corner somewhere.
Not finishing the 99'd gen is the worst possible scenario: congratulations, you did 99% extra gen repair to play around a maximum of 80% extra gen repair. Mind blowing value.
TLDR: there's no scenario where 99'ing the gen is better than simply finishing it.
The 99 thing is specifically a counter to PR. It prevents it from ever hitting vital gens that will be battled over. For example, the snow retreat map has a gen in the center. It's a real fight to knock that out since it is patrolled so often and easily. If it's completed, survivor success goes up much higher since it means the remaining gens are further spread out - it's much harder to patrol if gens are far from each other. By having a gen way over in a corner far away, the gen will naturally be less often checked since vital gens are more towards the center. Now no matter what the killer does, he's in a lose lose situation. If he PR hooks, the gen that gets hit is the gen that's far in the corner. This leaves any progress made to center gens maintained. Pushing that middle gen can be difficult, but if that thing gets dumped 25% every pop, it'll be nigh impossible by the time bodies start dropping. If he actually goes over to the 99'd gen, that's precious time the killer has blown with zero pressure on more vital gens - more importantly, that's an uncontested center gen. The most optimal place the survivors would want the killer to be is far away from vital gens. Once all PR tokens are used up, then the fen can be completed. Doing a 25% repair on a low priority gen miles away from the killer patrolis far more viable than trying to do extra 25% per hit repairs rightwhere the killer will be on a regular basis.
As for no PR, 99% a gen usually isn't worth it unless you are trying to avoid a 3 gen, but the moment the killer spots the 99 gen, the gig is up and he'll likely not bother checking that gen anymore, so might as well complete.
Long story short, if PR is hitting, you want it hitting on a low priority gen (usually the gens the killers give up since they arent worth protecting). Survivors have complete control over exactly which gen PR affects.
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@A_T_E said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887030#Comment_3887030
Source?
I do not have a source at hand, but it's part of their automated system. Too many reports of the same kind, from different people, against the same player, results in a ping to mods to check them out.
Their internal systems on how they check your behavior is of course secret, but I've had successful messages ingame telling me people have been actioned for various reportable reasons, and I've never reported anybody on these forums with footage or screencaps.
The whole actioned response only means that your report was looked at. It doesn't mean anyone was punished. It says the appropriate action was taken. Sometimes that action literally means to disregard the report.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888298#Comment_3888298
Yeah, sure. And we were told that the anti gen tap would cause people to hold 4 seconds and let go to keep regression going and deny further kicks.
Neither of those things actually happen in regular matches. Survivors aren't sitting on so much gen progress that having one 99'd is a thing. Most games, by a huge margin, are either 3k or 4k where survivors aren't finishing 5 gens, let alone a decoy 6th.
I mean that's mmr dependant. That's the usual go-to technique in my matches. PR in use? Go to a gen not often patrolled and 99 it. PR becomes a nonthreat. I did premise with the caveat that it's smart survivors who do it. If something is problematic, don't just throw yourself at a wall - counter it.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885743#Comment_3885743
pain res only works 4 times pop requires hook + walking to a gen you want to regress and surge eats through the 8 "kick" system like crazy and requires being in a certain radius aka its rng and non reliable the only reason most killers run these because without them the game would be over after the 2/3rd chase.
Smart survivors also simply get a far corner gen 99'd to eat up all PR charges so they never affect any vital gens.
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@SoGo said:
Reminder:
Anti-slug will only likely impact the extreme cases, as they explained in the post.
Anti-camp will likely just be a smaller improvement to the already existing AFC mechanic.
As for the anti-tunnel, I'm not sure what will it do.
I doubt it'll happen in extreme cases, as they said that when it came to the 8 regression limit. Regardless of their claim, it still happens in legitimate matches where 3 gen camping isn't remotely occurring. The whole "it won't affect anyone unless there's a problem" speech simply doesn't add up in reality. As a survivor, I can force the 8 regression limit on vital gens (such as RPD lobby) within the first 5 minutes of the game easily. As a killer, I've seen survivors weaponizing it just the same.
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@XtremeDBD said:
Personally, it feels like these killers can harm a new player's experience with the game if they simply don't understand how to use their power/counter power, making them lose miserably and go on rage rants about perfectly healthy kits
A fix to this and many other frustrations are the following:
- Pre game lobbies now last 2 minutes
- All players names are now hidden in the pre game lobby (this is to prevent tunneling the weak link, or the person with the least hours. This is a big contributing factor to the casual experience)
- The killer is picked in the pre game lobby, and can be switched before a lock in timer of sorts
- Survivor item types, rarities and number of add ons are revealed to all players (this is a feature on mobile, essentially being ported)
- The killer being played is made public to the whole lobby (This change i feel makes sense since most killers are revealed at the start of matches anyway
- When it comes to lobby dodging, a lock in timer would prevent all players from leaving a pre game lobby at a certain point, meaning that no matter who the killer picked to play, the survivors and killer must play it out)
- Survivors who haven't played against the killer 3 times at least will get a notification directing them to the killer's power breakdown. For reworked killers, this prompt would reappear the first 3 times, for example with Freddy's rework
- All killer power breakdowns are available in an experience journal (this would track whether you've seen a certain killer and how many times you've encountered them and your escape rate against them)
- Bloodpoints are no longer spendable in the pre game lobby (incentivise instant readying with regards to killers being known to everyone. Survivorswho care will likely modifytheir builds to combat the killers power)
- Bloodpoint cap is removed (compensates for no more spending in the pre game)
Really simple fixes im suprised are not in the QOL Initiative changes. Informing players of whats to come almost forcefully is the perfect way for players to understand and improve, thus staying attached to the game. The stats tracked in the journal is more of a bonus for curious eyes, not to sure if BHVR knows an individual player's escape rates against certain killers, but if they don't, these stats can be used to make changes to killers with plentiful data
As much as these seem like killer nerfs, the extra preparation shouldn't impact generic escape rates all too much, since survivors often don't seem to care about running counter perks and just stick to the meta
All personal preference, i just think this can alleviate alot of problems with the casual/new player experience. Sorry for the rant : )
Just a quick note on this one:
- The killer being played is made public to the whole lobby (This change i feel makes sense since most killers are revealed at the start of matches anyway
This would be bad because it makes stealth killers (already weak killers) even weaker. One of their most crucial aspects is being able to capitalize on the element of surprise. An early down by punishing survivors not paying attention can sometimes make or break the match for the killer - especially with Shoulder the Burden existing. Additionally, revealing who the killer is in the lobby would be bad because survivors (especially SWFs - something already incredibly strong) can change up their loadout to perfectly counter the killer in question. Know you're going up against the plague? Everyone drops their medkits and puts on toolboxes. Part of the balance is the unknown factor of what the match will be. That's also why you don't truly know what map you're going to until everything is locked in. You build around mitigating what may come, not meta-hard countering guarantees.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/439036/are-people-blind
So lets look at the 3 scourge hooks you mentioned in the first match. I'm assuming you are talking about pain resonance. Lets talk about it.
Pain resonance reduces the gen with the most progress by 20%. Gens take 90 seconds. So this would knock off 18 seconds on a gen.
Some people don't realize this, but it takes the killer about 15 seconds or so to hook a survivor after they down them:
- 2.7 second wipe animation
- 3 second pickup animation
- ~7-8 seconds to walk to a hook
- 1.5 second hook animation
2.7 + 3 + 7.5 + 1.5 = 14.7 seconds. Lets say around 15 seconds.
So how long were those chases lasting? Is the real question here. Because it sounds like they were lasting maybe 5 seconds? Which at that point, i think your team has bigger problems then knocking 18 seconds off a gen. Also, given the fact that it hit your gen 3 times, that tells me that the rest of your team was not doing gens. I don't know what they were doing, sure 1 was being chased, maybe going for the save and what not. But all 3 of them doing no gens for 3 chases and hooks?
Accurate. A well oiled squad will get a gen that's far from the others (less likely to be patrolled) to 99 to eat all of the PR hits and then get it back to 99. This leaves all of the vital gens 100% unaffected and safe from PR and also gives the killer a false sense of security thinking he has one extra gen left when it's actually one tap away from completion. PR isn't remotely problematic and is easily countered.
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If a killer just camps a downed survivor, then the survivors win. That's completely uncontested generator progress.
Not to mention, 2 survivors can easily get a downed survivor up. The moment the killer attacks one survivor, they judt run which gives the second survivor plenty of time to tap the downed survivor to get them up. Same concept as rescuing from hook. Naturally a downed survivor would be crawling to a strong loop, so the moment they get up, everyone is at a good defensive position against chases. Exception of course is if it's a nurse which can pretty much end any chase at will, or bubba who will always one shot rescuers so taking hits aren't an option.
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I sometimes give props in case some day it actually does something and they might retroactively give credit.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887987#Comment_3887987
Yeah I know, which is why the video proof is required as well. I think everyone can agree that a trail replay system would be so invaluable for tons of reasons, not just reporting stuff. Maybe in a potential DBD2?
Trial replays would be awesome in general - especially on how to improve at the game.
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Whatever they do, go next detection should disable once a certain amount of time or objectives has passed. Sometimes if it's a 4 man out, and the killer was having a rough time, I'll offer myself up if everyone else is clearly escaping as a sort of "gg, have some extra BPs for the match on me" type of thing. Would suck if the system detected that as goo next since I'm walking over to a hook.
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Just a heads up, BHVR (i believe it was Mandy?) clarified that getting that feedback popup only means that they read your report. It doesn't mean they banned anyone. Sometimes the "appropriate" action is no action. Thats what they mean by appropriate - if they feel they were cheating, it's a ban. If they feel they were not cheating or not enough evidence, they drop the report. In either case, it's the "appropriate" action taken.