Orion
Orion
About
- Username
- Orion
- Joined
- Visits
- 124
- Last Active
Comments
-
@GraviteaUK said:
@Orion said:
Stream sniping is and should remain bannable. However, if you're going to put your stream link in your username, you should also take precautions to avoid stream sniping. The whole point of turning yourself into a billboard is that people go watch your stream; you can't have it both ways.The whole point of this is the survivors or killers drop in AFTER the game so you can chat, give each other a GG, possibly make an SWF group after.
Not so a killer can trivialise the whole point of the game by knowing where you're heading or where you're hiding.
Of course survivors do this too if one of them dies in a SWF they can ghost a streamer killer.
Either way it's lame.
Like I said, you can't have it both ways. Using a URL as your display name is an implicit invitation to everyone to click on/follow the link. That's why you take precautions such as stream delays.
Personally, when I'm streaming, I post the link after the trial is over, instead of turning my name into an ad. That prevents stream sniping. -
Stream sniping is and should remain bannable. However, if you're going to put your stream link in your username, you should also take precautions to avoid stream sniping. The whole point of turning yourself into a billboard is that people go watch your stream; you can't have it both ways.
-
@The_Crusader said:
It's never works as simple as you make it sound because there's little co-ordination. Not with randoms anywayWith SWF however? It's easy.
So again we end up where it's just better off to play SWF.
So take perks that help with coordination. Kindred, Bond, Empathy.
-
@altruistic said:
Shh you’re on the forums. You’re supposed to say Killer is unplayable, Survivors are favored and Killers are always being nerfed.Are you a farmer? If not, why the strawman?
-
@Orion said:
To stop camping, all Survivors on all platforms would need to stop feeding campers for a prolonged period of time.Adding to this: if Survivors wanted to permanently stop camping, they would need to stop rewarding it for the rest of DbD's lifetime. That means no more hook rushing, no more following Killers to the hook, no more obvious baits, etc., forever.
-
@se05239 said:
@Orion said:
@se05239 said:
@Blueberry said:
A large amount of toxicity is from the game being unbalanced. There will always be toxicity, but it would reduce drastically if we had more balance.Toxicity has always, even in the first beta and release, come primarily from Survivors.
True infinites were exploited to hell and beyond for the sake of them being douches.
Hostage taking situations.. post-game chat toxicity..It has always boiled down to survivors surviving 'too well'. When they're too safe, they become cocky.
Don't say that too loudly, otherwise people might call you biased...
I ain't afraid to speak my mind and the actual truth.
It was a joke. Anyone who's been here from the start knows the truth.
-
@se05239 said:
@Blueberry said:
A large amount of toxicity is from the game being unbalanced. There will always be toxicity, but it would reduce drastically if we had more balance.Toxicity has always, even in the first beta and release, come primarily from Survivors.
True infinites were exploited to hell and beyond for the sake of them being douches.
Hostage taking situations.. post-game chat toxicity..It has always boiled down to survivors surviving 'too well'. When they're too safe, they become cocky.
Don't say that too loudly, otherwise people might call you biased...
-
No. The devs and mods just need to start punishing toxic behavior instead of letting a few things slide. They can ease restrictions after the toxic portion of the playerbase has died off, like cutting off blood vessels to a tumor.
-
@The_Crusader said:
@DocOctober Can we stop with the insults please? Things have chilled out now. Lets not start it all up again.@Wolf74
Yes some survivors do bad baits. Like running into extremely secure areas which the killer isn't going to fall for.However some killers flat out refuse to leave the hook. Or some only leave if you give them a guarenteed new hook. At which point they then camp the new guy. You can't keep feeding a camping killer new hooks.
I don't see why it's on survivors to feed some lazy troll new hooks to get them to move.
You're new, so I'm gonna explain how camping started.
Back when DbD was released, Survivors knew not to rescue against a camper. If someone was being camped, they signaled it by faking self-unhooks, and everyone else stayed away, working on generators.
As Survivors became cocky, they tried to force the unhooks, even if the Killer was right there.
Killers, in turn, learned that Survivors would stop all generator progress if even one of them was hooked, which bought them some much-needed time and tilted the game in their favor. So, Killers started to camp more and more, and Survivors just kept rewarding it by stopping generator progress.
Perks were created as a band-aid solution at the Survivors' behest, ranging from basic stuff like Kindred to OP stuff like Borrowed Time (at release, anyway).Fast-forward to now, camping is rewarded 9 times out of 10, and Survivors have become so entitled that they think they should be able to unhook regardless of the Killer's presence; i.e.: that the Killer's presence should be inconsequential to what they want to do. They call them "trolls", "scum", "#########", and every other name under the sun, to try to bully and shame Killers into what they call "playing fair" (which is just code for "letting Survivors do what they want to do").
To stop camping, all Survivors on all platforms would need to stop feeding campers for a prolonged period of time. They'd need to repair generators and leave, just as they once knew to do. Survivors created the camping problem, and every hook rusher, every hook farmer, every hook vulture, they all help perpetuate it. Because Survivors feel entitled to unhook every single time, they make camping worthwhile for the Killer, and because camping is worthwhile for the Killer, Killers do it.
Survivors hold the key to getting rid of camping, but they're unwilling to use it. They'd rather blame the Killers who learned that Survivors will almost always reward camping rather than their own attitudes that led to the problem in the first place.Believe me, besides actual trolls who camp just to trigger Survivors, camping is just as unfun for the Killers as it is for the Survivors.
-
If they were still in the pick-up animation, it was just poor timing on your part.
-
@Speshul_Kitten said:
I believe it’s for the standard 32 meters. You can usually distinct the killers radius by the intensity of the heartbeat.And if the Killer is engaged in a chase?
-
@Wolf74 said:
With Distressing? With M&A? With Insidious? While cloaked?While engaged in a chase? While the hook vultures are there?
-
@darktrix said:
I have a solution...design a better game.If people DC because they don't like the game, then why are they playing it in the first place?
-
@thesuicidefox said:
DUDE it is not a fact that GG is for trolling. GG = GOOD GAME. Nothing more nothing less. It's been that way for the last 20 years of competitive gaming. You are the only only assuming anything. Intention is irrelevant when you take it at face value like a normal [BAD WORD] person.Like talking to a wall. A very thick wall that twists every possible thing someone says as being toxic BM. I have been playing competitive games since 2002, and have played games against others online since the early 90's. I have NEVER seen someone say GG as a way to be toxic. Literally never. If someone plans to be toxic, GG is the last thing they would ever say.
What does the "LOL" reaction mean in the Dead by Daylight forum?
-
@thesuicidefox said:
@Orion said:
@thesuicidefox said:
@Orion I bet you are the type of person to scream at the customer service rep for trying to help you because you think they are only being polite for a paycheck. God forbid people actually have some manners.I'm pointing out the difference between how you intend to come across and how you actually come across. People you talk with aren't usually mind-readers, so they don't know how you intend to come across; all they've got is their own perspective. Since "GG" in DbD is mostly used to really rub it in after you made the other side's game as devoid of fun as possible, even well-intended people will be misunderstood, thanks to the #########.
Since we're being judgemental, you strike me as the type of person who blames a misunderstanding on the person who didn't know what you meant to say, because you implicitly expect everyone to know your intentions.
My intention is GG. Nothing more nothing less. If you take it for something else that's one you. Really not sure what you expect could be said that can't be irrationally misconstrued to be something else. Because everything people say online has to have some malicious underlying meaning and not just mean what they say.
Like I said, you implicitly expect everyone to know your intentions. Fact is, if GG is used for trolling more often than not, then "trolling" will become the default assumption. It's the same with literally any other word or action in all of human history.
-
@Kayleepaige said:
@Orion said:
@Kayleepaige said:
@Orion said:
@Kayleepaige said:
@I_am_Negan said:
Are you sure there getting off the hook themselves, and another survivor isn't lurking around the corner ready for the saveWhen all others are dead or downed?
Ive stood there watching them do it aswell. No one else is getting them off. I watched at least 4-5 of them doing it, the rest were when all other survs were dead/downed.
So yes, im 100% sure. There was no debuff from deliverance.
I mean if no one else is getting this i have to be the most unlucky killer in dbd history.
Self-unhook attempts follow a binomial distribution. For every 3 attempts, a Survivor has about an 11.5% chance to get off the hook. You can get unlucky and get a few (or even several) self-unhooks in any one interval of your trials. That's how probability works. 4% success rate for each attempt doesn't mean that if you try 100 times you'll have exactly 4 successes.
Ive never had this before though. A survivor will usually get off once every 5 matches maybe not 1-2 every single match and ive been playing killer regularly for a year.
1 Survivor every 5 matches, so that's 1 Survivor out of 20 Survivors, which is 5%.
Yes thats what NORMALLY happens. Thats NOT whats happening now. Its at least one survivor every game.
Unlucky streak (and confirmation bias). It happens.
-
@xmenfanatic said:
Do what you want, but don’t act like you aren’t being selfish here. And if someone calls you out for being selfish, own it.What’s the point of even wishing people a good game if you don’t care about negatively effecting them and figure it’s their problem if you offend them?
At first I thought you meant well, but it really seems like you want the self gratification of coming off as a good person as opposed to actually giving people a real thank you/good wishes.
Thank you.
-
I know what you're saying, and I stand by my position. This is no different from fixing an exploit. When balancing the game, you shouldn't take into account conditions like exploits and bad framerates.
-
@KatFever78 said:
It's not my problem how someone chooses to perceive my gg. If they want to take it the wrong way then that's their problem. I'm not going to baby anyone out of fear of offending them.
Or maybe I should do the following; GG, and why I feel that way. An essay by KatFever78. 🙄If "GG" is used to troll more often than not, the natural conclusion is simply that you intend to troll. You could also choose to say nothing.
-
@skvirl said:
@Orion said:
@skvirl said:
@Wolf74 said:
@skvirl Are you new to internet debates? For real, calling someone "coward" just because he refuse to talk to someone? Some people are stubborn and impervious to logic and reason, after the Xth time explaining the same things to them, you just talk "around them". You can't hinder them to participate in a debate you are in also, but you can refuse to interact with them directly without leaving their nonsensical statements unresponded.He's completely free to not interact with someone. If you read my comment without putting words into my mouth or twisting it to fit your narrative, you'd see that I'm calling him a coward because he is talking about someone to other people, like this someone is not there. This is called rude, childish and cowardly behaviour. If @Orion disagrees with someone, he is free to do so. He is also free to ignore whoever he wants. What I find silly is that he feels the need to tell everyone how he's ignoring this person because he wants more people to join his cause. If he acted like an adult, he would just ignore and not try to gather more people to his "crusade" or whatever it is he's doing.. If I don't like someone, I will ACTUALLY ignore them, and not bring them up and call attention to how I'm ignoring them any chance I get. You know, like an adult.
The last part of your comment describes pretty accurately how you act on this forum. You can't be talked around either, you just turn to memes every chance you get. It's pretty obvious what you're doing, and I'm not really falling for the bait. Have fun.
Go find those examples of me talking about it, please. I have almost 5000 posts, so there should be a lot of them, if your complaints are to be believed. Go prove yourself right, show me the percentage.
What? How old are you?! You sound like a petulant child. I never talked about percentage, what are you on about? You've talked about this several times, in several threads. Also, you just admitted, in this very thread, you've said it several times. Why do I need to find these posts? I mean, I would if I had to, but like I said, you just said I was right. Or are you going back on it?
Are you trolling?
I said I've said it "a few times", you said I do it "so many times [you]'ve noticed a pattern". So no, I didn't say you were right. Hell, you even said that I say it to "everyone" and try to get people to do the same. I mentioned it to @Malakir after he came to the same conclusion, and not before. I was agreeing with @Malakir; not trying to influence his opinion.
I don't even mention the person you're talking about (or any other person I ignore, in fact) by name. This is in contrast to you and the guy you're defending, among others, who will actively try to influence people against me. -
This is not a nerf.
-
@skvirl said:
@Wolf74 said:
@skvirl Are you new to internet debates? For real, calling someone "coward" just because he refuse to talk to someone? Some people are stubborn and impervious to logic and reason, after the Xth time explaining the same things to them, you just talk "around them". You can't hinder them to participate in a debate you are in also, but you can refuse to interact with them directly without leaving their nonsensical statements unresponded.He's completely free to not interact with someone. If you read my comment without putting words into my mouth or twisting it to fit your narrative, you'd see that I'm calling him a coward because he is talking about someone to other people, like this someone is not there. This is called rude, childish and cowardly behaviour. If @Orion disagrees with someone, he is free to do so. He is also free to ignore whoever he wants. What I find silly is that he feels the need to tell everyone how he's ignoring this person because he wants more people to join his cause. If he acted like an adult, he would just ignore and not try to gather more people to his "crusade" or whatever it is he's doing.. If I don't like someone, I will ACTUALLY ignore them, and not bring them up and call attention to how I'm ignoring them any chance I get. You know, like an adult.
The last part of your comment describes pretty accurately how you act on this forum. You can't be talked around either, you just turn to memes every chance you get. It's pretty obvious what you're doing, and I'm not really falling for the bait. Have fun.
Go find those examples of me talking about it, please. I have almost 5000 posts, so there should be a lot of them, if your complaints are to be believed. Go prove yourself right, show me the percentage.
-
I understand what you mean, and this is why balance in an asymmetrical game is such a fragile thing. It's why the so-called "snowball effect" exists. If either side has a strong start, they can wipe the floor with the other one. It also occurs in any game where the extent to which one side can pull ahead of the other is theoretically infinite (MOBAs, for example).
There are two common ways to fix this.
- Give one side better tools to close the gap as their side begins to lose. In DbD, this could be something like increasing generator repair speeds as more Survivors die (but it would have to be inversely proportional to the number of repaired generators), or giving the Killer a boost as more generators are repaired (if the Survivors are still alive and well).
- Give one side fewer advantages for pulling ahead, so that they still become more powerful as they complete their objective, but not quite as much. I'm not sure what this could be in DbD because the gameplay is extremely basic.
-
@skvirl said:
@Orion said:
@skvirl said:
And here we are again, Orion telling the world how he ignores people on this forum because he disagrees with them. If you ignore them, you wouldn't be talking about them.
Pearls of wisdom - like your comment about your "knowledge of density"! I actually laughed out loud at that one! The way you phrase it is like it's some kind of foreign and hard to grasp concept only reserved for highly intellectual people XD I like how you always try to make your knowledge about simple things seem like complicated science to make yourself look smarter
I deal with people like this every day, and see right through it XDI didn't state my reasons for ignoring him, and yes, the OP seemed unaware of what density was, given his statement about pallets.
I've seen you in COUNTLESS threads stating that you ignore him. How about you stop talking about it and actually do it?
He never said he didn't know what density is. You just decided to be overly condescending. Again, I've seen you do this to people in countless threads as well. It's pretty unappealing.
Countless? I'll admit I've said it a few times, but I think I only said it to him once. Ignoring doesn't mean you don't talk about the person; it means you don't talk with the person. There's a big difference.
No, he didn't say he didn't know what density was, but he was behaving as if the concept was foreign to him, since he equated pallet redistribution (i.e.: pallet density becoming more homogeneous) with a decrease in the number of pallets.
-
@skvirl said:
And here we are again, Orion telling the world how he ignores people on this forum because he disagrees with them. If you ignore them, you wouldn't be talking about them.
Pearls of wisdom - like your comment about your "knowledge of density"! I actually laughed out loud at that one! The way you phrase it is like it's some kind of foreign and hard to grasp concept only reserved for highly intellectual people XD I like how you always try to make your knowledge about simple things seem like complicated science to make yourself look smarter
I deal with people like this every day, and see right through it XDI didn't state my reasons for ignoring him, and yes, the OP seemed unaware of what density was, given his statement about pallets.
-
@FengMinLithe said:
He seems to thing because he gets potato survivors he is good.😂I can't judge that, but like the person who started this thread, he figures opposition to his comments and ideas comes from the fact that people don't want to admit he's right, whereas the truth is that people simply don't like his comments and ideas.
-
@rafajsp said:
@Rebel_Raven said:
Bbq and chili needs to be in the shrine more often. I feel like it would help a lot if there was more incentive to not face camp.
More points to get fresh meat, so to speak.I hate to be like this, but maybe you should look into altering your playstyle some? Avoid the killer more, and let other people be the decoys more?
BBQ don't resolve camping, neither MYC or Devour Hope.
I see a lot of killers camping with MYC, other with BBQ or Devour Hope.In what context? I've camped with MYC because all three Survivors were cosplaying as vultures around the hook.
-
@Malakir said:
Thank you for the straw man now I know i have to skip you answersI do the same thing, but he figures it's because his comments are pearls of wisdom and truth that I'm just trying to avoid.
-
There will never be such a solution, because while Killers want incentives to leave the hook, Survivors just want to punish Killers for not giving them free unhooks.
-
@thesuicidefox said:
@Orion I bet you are the type of person to scream at the customer service rep for trying to help you because you think they are only being polite for a paycheck. God forbid people actually have some manners.I'm pointing out the difference between how you intend to come across and how you actually come across. People you talk with aren't usually mind-readers, so they don't know how you intend to come across; all they've got is their own perspective. Since "GG" in DbD is mostly used to really rub it in after you made the other side's game as devoid of fun as possible, even well-intended people will be misunderstood, thanks to the #########.
Since we're being judgemental, you strike me as the type of person who blames a misunderstanding on the person who didn't know what you meant to say, because you implicitly expect everyone to know your intentions.
-
@FoggyDownpour said:
For the number of times you've seen a survivor, I can petty much guarantee that you've walked right by at least double that amount. Just because you see them that time, doesn't mean that they haven't been missed before.I can't even tell you the number of times I've had a killer double take in my direction and then walked right by me to go to some unseen notification. It's all a matter of perspective :>
Same. I juked an invisible Wraith who walked by me so closely it was like I was playing Wraith (because of how loud the growl was).
-
Don’t move! He can’t see us if we don’t move. Their vision is based on movement.
-
Yeah, I misread it. I hope he did.
-
We've been through this. Even dark goddesses get lonely from time to time.
-
@Kayleepaige said:
@Orion said:
@Kayleepaige said:
@I_am_Negan said:
Are you sure there getting off the hook themselves, and another survivor isn't lurking around the corner ready for the saveWhen all others are dead or downed?
Ive stood there watching them do it aswell. No one else is getting them off. I watched at least 4-5 of them doing it, the rest were when all other survs were dead/downed.
So yes, im 100% sure. There was no debuff from deliverance.
I mean if no one else is getting this i have to be the most unlucky killer in dbd history.
Self-unhook attempts follow a binomial distribution. For every 3 attempts, a Survivor has about an 11.5% chance to get off the hook. You can get unlucky and get a few (or even several) self-unhooks in any one interval of your trials. That's how probability works. 4% success rate for each attempt doesn't mean that if you try 100 times you'll have exactly 4 successes.
Ive never had this before though. A survivor will usually get off once every 5 matches maybe not 1-2 every single match and ive been playing killer regularly for a year.
1 Survivor every 5 matches, so that's 1 Survivor out of 20 Survivors, which is 5%.
-
@DarkGGhost said:
@Orion he say that he searching the files of the game and he run a program he have for finding specific code. After 2-3 hours he find thos numbers.I'm not buying it. Data mining is unreliable.
-
@Vietfox said:
This is from a salty killer:
Ok so i was playing with friends, 3 but 1 were at the exit gate. I rescued the 4th one (i had BT) but i got downed, then when LF tried to pick me up the friend i rescued used the flashlight and we all 4 escaped. That's what my friend got after the match.I hope you reported him.
-
@Kayleepaige said:
@I_am_Negan said:
Are you sure there getting off the hook themselves, and another survivor isn't lurking around the corner ready for the saveWhen all others are dead or downed?
Ive stood there watching them do it aswell. No one else is getting them off. I watched at least 4-5 of them doing it, the rest were when all other survs were dead/downed.
So yes, im 100% sure. There was no debuff from deliverance.
I mean if no one else is getting this i have to be the most unlucky killer in dbd history.
Self-unhook attempts follow a binomial distribution. For every 3 attempts, a Survivor has about an 11.5% chance to get off the hook. You can get unlucky and get a few (or even several) self-unhooks in any one interval of your trials. That's how probability works. 4% success rate for each attempt doesn't mean that if you try 100 times you'll have exactly 4 successes.
-
@DarkGGhost said:
@Orion one friend of mine try to find the numbers and this is what he find outAnd how did he find the numbers, exactly? Ask him what his methodology was and post it here.
-
@DarkGGhost said:
is bace 4 % and for every dead survivors you add 5-7%This is false. It's just 4%, period.
-
Yes.
-
@Raptorrotas said:
RBT shouldn't be such a survivor entertainment mechanism, i remember the rollercoaster metaphor for it.
Thrilling, but not actually dangerous.
Even Swfs who care for their mates dont care for activating them. Thats saying a lotThis is not a balance discussion, please stay on-topic.
-
@Fibijean said:
@Orion said:
@Fibijean said:
@Orion said:
@Fibijean said:
I get that BM is definitely a problem, but who in their right mind would wait FORTY FIVE MINUTES for a survivor to leave a match under those circumstances, rather than hitting them and forcing them out the gate? Honestly at that point, it's your own fault.Who in their right mind would wait FORTY FIVE MINUTES for a Killer to force you out under those circumstances, rather than leaving? Honestly at that point, it's your own fault.
It works both ways, you know.
For goodness' sake, everything doesn't have to be a survivors vs. killers debate. Don't you get that by making everything about an "us vs. them" mentality, you're becoming part of the problem?
The answer to your question would be a troll who has nothing better to do. But of course it works both ways. Obviously the survivor was doing the wrong thing. I acknowledged that. The point was that there's no reason to wait around that long except pride, and you're only wasting your own time there. Cutting off your nose to spite your face, as it were.
Survivors behaving badly is a valid complaint, but implying that they are holding the game hostage by teabagging at the exit is not. It's annoying, but at the end of the day it's in the killer's power to solve and says more about them (the survivors) than anything else.
Dude, you're the one who's turning Survivor trolls into a "blame the Killer" situation, and I'm to blame because I point out the source of the problem?
You're to blame for being so on edge that you assume someone is "blaming the killer" when actually they're doing nothing of the sort, yes. There is no problem to point out, except the dangers of jumping to conclusions.
You literally used the sentence "Honestly at that point, it's your own fault.". I'm not assuming anything; those are literally your words.
-
@Fibijean said:
@Orion said:
@Fibijean said:
I get that BM is definitely a problem, but who in their right mind would wait FORTY FIVE MINUTES for a survivor to leave a match under those circumstances, rather than hitting them and forcing them out the gate? Honestly at that point, it's your own fault.Who in their right mind would wait FORTY FIVE MINUTES for a Killer to force you out under those circumstances, rather than leaving? Honestly at that point, it's your own fault.
It works both ways, you know.
For goodness' sake, everything doesn't have to be a survivors vs. killers debate. Don't you get that by making everything about an "us vs. them" mentality, you're becoming part of the problem?
The answer to your question would be a troll who has nothing better to do. But of course it works both ways. Obviously the survivor was doing the wrong thing. I acknowledged that. The point was that there's no reason to wait around that long except pride, and you're only wasting your own time there. Cutting off your nose to spite your face, as it were.
Survivors behaving badly is a valid complaint, but implying that they are holding the game hostage by teabagging at the exit is not. It's annoying, but at the end of the day it's in the killer's power to solve and says more about them (the survivors) than anything else.
Dude, you're the one who's turning Survivor trolls into a "blame the Killer" situation, and I'm to blame because I point out the source of the problem?
-
@Fibijean said:
I get that BM is definitely a problem, but who in their right mind would wait FORTY FIVE MINUTES for a survivor to leave a match under those circumstances, rather than hitting them and forcing them out the gate? Honestly at that point, it's your own fault.Who in their right mind would wait FORTY FIVE MINUTES for a Killer to force you out under those circumstances, rather than leaving? Honestly at that point, it's your own fault.
It works both ways, you know.
-
@redsopine01 said:
Two maps are put on like one for game other for autohaven and the map you get could be either and then the offering is gone from your inventory right afterWell, yeah, the offering was used. When two different map offerings are used, there's an equal chance that either one will be picked, but you still threw your hat in the ring, as it were.
-
Unused how?
-
@Boss said:
Kinda odd the game can detect when a Survivor DCs, hence the DC icon on the HUD OR not having to do 5 gens when loading screen DCs, but not when a Killer DCs.
Or it can detect it, but they decide not to do anything about it for a while.Why are you assuming the Killer DCd? I've had the game crash on me at the most inopportune moments, from both sides. Killer seems more unstable, though, I'm guessing because they're the host.
-
@KatFever78 said:
In the end, I will continue to say gg. If you get offended that's your problem.Like I said, if your intent is to just say GG, do as you please, but you'll be perceived as an ######### many times thanks to your fellow Survivors. If your intent is to get your point across, you'll need a couple more words (or just say nothing).
-
When it's a SWF group I think will be a particular pain in the ass, or if there are too many toolboxes for my liking.