Abyast1
Abyast1
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090642#Comment_4090642
No gen kicks were given 5 percent baseline regression unless I'm mistaken which is why a lot of gen regression perks were nerfed to compensate for that addition.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying mate.
We agree.
I was stating what it was before the changes.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090598#Comment_4090598
they also buffed gen kicks and removed gen tapping, don't forget those!
Buffed gen kicks by removing gen tapping you mean, and that simply meant you couldnt remove 3s of a killers animation with 1s of a survivor tapping it. Gen kick was useless outside of PGTW before the removal of gen tapping.
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@TurnOffTheTVs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090564#Comment_4090564
Brother. I have been playing nothing but Jason… the push back is inconsequential most of the time and outright helpful at times.
brother, Id argue its only inconsequential because the survivors aren't using it to their advantage. When playing as jason, i see most survivors lose their spatial awareness for no reason and walk into walls after being spiked. So yes, when they dont have any idea whats around them it does nothing. I've seen a few people use it to just beat me to the next loop, as i hit them at a bad angle (could be a skill issue, but was slightly to late to hit them directly into the wall) so they slid vertically and continued pathing straight away.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090529#Comment_4090529
Its a thinly veiled excuse to hide the fact that your mad you got taken out of a game that you believe you deserved to have escaped.
It isn't. Being tunneled out at 5 gens after being hook camped and sent back to the lobby with 5k points is just garbage. The person gets no chance to play at all, never mind escape.
The devs have already given you some handholds, such as basekit BT and haste, as well as perks you can (and quite often do, according to survivor pickrate) take to make it as inefficient as possible because that's the nature of the game.
Anti-tunnel perks are trash. DS is easy to chomp through for at least half the roster. Off the Record is useless.
However, in the past when survivors were asked about increasing times on gens (which would be one of the many steps theyd have to take to make it more casual friendly for killers) it was overwhelmingly outcried by survivors publically because that "wouldn't be fun"
Gen times have been increased and now most gen perks have also been hit by diminishing (while most regress hasn't). Again, we have a killer that has built in slowdown (and we're about to have another) but the cheese has been worse than ever. Half the Jasons I encounter run full hex builds with Ruin, Thrill, and Penimento. It's almost impossible to sit on gens, and almost impossible to get rid of the totems. Gen times increases won't stop cheese, they'll make it easier.
It isn't. Being tunneled out at 5 gens after being hook camped and sent back to the lobby with 5k points is just garbage. The person gets no chance to play at all, never mind escape.
Again, the whole point is that the killers job is to have you not play for as long as possible. This is the killer doing their job as efficiently as possible. Thats a downside of playing an asymmetrical horror sadly.
Anti tunnel perks are trash. DS is easy to chomp through for at least half the roster. off the record is useless
So you used to have a much much stronger version of ds. It was abused again and again. If you abuse/exploit the good thinks given to you, you lose them. Because it turned into not an anti-tunnel perk but a free shield for 60s to do gens ect. However, as i said, anti tunnel perks cannot be too effective otherwise they just outright punish the killer for playing efficiently, which we both agree you don't want to punish otherwise you'd have argued against it already as it was the majority of my point.
Gen times have been increased and now most gen perks have also been hit by diminishing (while most regress hasn't). Again, we have a killer that has built in slowdown (and we're about to have another) but the cheese has been worse than ever. Half the Jasons I encounter run full hex builds with Ruin, Thrill, and Penimento. It's almost impossible to sit on gens, and almost impossible to get rid of the totems. Gen times increases won't stop cheese, they'll make it easier.
So, let me split this into 3 points.
Firstly, they got increased from 80s to 90s in 2022. Most the time theyve been kept at the 90s, and this was followed by nerfs to Pop goes the weasel (from 20% of current progress to 20% of overall progress, a huge nerf) and ruin ( percentages cut in half from 200% regression to 100%) which were the major forms of regression back then. So yes, regression was hit, massively.
Secondly- I don't know why you say the killer has built in slowdown, he doesn't. Jason doesn't require you to crouch/stop working on gens when using power unless your on death hook. He'll gain info, but nothing else. I don't know why your acting like you'll lose a health state or something if you stay on a gen when hes in power. The only reason currently it gives slowdown is because people are too scared to take chase and just sit there hoping someone else does.
Thirdly- if half the jasons run those perks (and your seeing almost all jasons), do you know what you should probably do. Run a map. Genuinely, running a map, or a perk like detectives hunch in your build and bam you can smash out those totems. Pentimento also slows down the killer, and ruin does very little rn. smash out gens and use detectives or your map to hunt them down. Hex perks like devour, ruin and pentimento are common anyway so taking it shouldn't be a burden at all.
However, this isn't a argument against jason (the third one), but an argument against that hex combo. Other killers also use that combo a lot, so maybe you should focus your energy at that here.
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@wesker_shades said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090565#Comment_4090565
Well, while release Drac had a lot of issues, he really can't compare.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090566#Comment_4090566
Ghoul is pretty much beating a dead horse at this point. We all know what their problem is.
And D&D Vecna was not as overtuned. He got a massive buff when they shortened the cooldown on Fly however.I do remember old Nurse and Forever Freddy, but Jason is in a league of his own. Sorry to all of you who like playing him, but the truth is that it is absolutely miserable to play against him, because of how much he has in his kit and his add-ons, for basically free.
I enjoy playing as and against him, otherwise i wouldnt be posting. He can definitely use a few nerfs but your overexaggerating here.
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@wesker_shades said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/468850/people-have-0-patience-anymore
If you are referring to Jason, he is overtuned.
Never have I ever seen a killer with THIS much BS mechanics since I started playing in 2018. And that is putting it mildly.You have. Ghoul, vecna on release and dracula on release are all comparible to this release.
The valid issues with jason are A) his haste last too long, B) his power is on a low cd and c) theres no real punishment for missing a shot, as scrap piles are many and all around. The other things complained about are usually a result of survivors not taking chase and refusing to take aggro (which you can choose who takes aggro due to his power, which is unique to him) which leads to standstills.
Ghouls issues were soo much more aggregious. Vecna's early mage hand cd and skulls cd were horrendously low and dracula had a low cd for switching between forms.
I also started in 2018. These are just the most recent examples. I remember back when nurse's attack didnt class as a special attack and worked with m1 perks for example. Or old slowdown freddy.
Jason is overtuned, but nowhere near as much as your comment seems to suggest
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@TurnOffTheTVs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090388#Comment_4090388
The push back genuinely means absolutely nothing especially because you can use it to your own advantage as Jason, it is not a negative you describe it to be. Most of the time they're hitting something and stopping anyway, or… you use it in a place where you're pushing them OUT of a loop or pushing them AWAY from resources, and at that point… you just get a free down with nothing they can do about it.
It is a negative in most situations, even if only minor. If you push them away from the current loop you risk them getting to another with the speed boost from being hit.
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@Raptorrotas said:
its funny how we're splitting hairs in the survivor character potential by obfuscating the single character into 3 groups but summarize all 40+ killers as nurse played by supaalf.
If one had to rnter the survivor character into ones favorite killer tierlist, they be somewhere in the upper A tier lol.
Agreed, but even when we split it into 4 groups comparing between casual swf and competitive swf they agree comp swf is above killer. And rightfully so.
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@Rogue11 said:
Starting every chase directly behind the survivor with a powerful ranged attack and 25 seconds of haste, after being handed infinite stealth, mobility, and information on a negligible cooldown? Skill-based means more than just "well at least its not autoaim".
Lmao ghoul has lowered the standards considerable.
But in all jest, jason's spikes hitbox is small, enough to be thrown through blinds in shack (unlike huntress hatchet). The infinite stealth doesnt allow him to attack during it and has to exit at predestined positions. The information can easily be denied by survivors and the mobility after exiting stealth is bullshit, we'll agree with that, as well as the cooldown being so low.
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@wesker_shades said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090525#Comment_4090525
Sure, casual SWF is stronger and more efficient than SoloQ by a large margin, but in relative terms of strength, many struggle to be on par with even B-tier killers, due to how bad the power creep has gotten.
I honestly don't know how much id agree with that, as having played as part of 2,3 and 4 man swf i can safely say my escape rate and my teams overall escape rate has massively improved outside of 2 man swf (which has improved slightly, but nowhere near as noticably). 4 man swf when me and my friends are playing (my friends have relatively little hours in the game, sitting at around 300hours, whereas myself sitting on just over 2k hours) and we're chatting chilling and vibing we're still saying whos in chase, where they are, who should unhook ect. It does massively increase our chances of winning.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090515#Comment_4090515
"Gen rushing" is something people say when they lose. It's a vague, abstract idea. There could be zero gen-boosting perks in play and no toolboxes and they'll say gen rushing. They could commit to one survivor for two minutes to get one hook and say they're being gen rushed. There's nothing else for those other survivors to do if the killer isn't spreading pressure. The killer, however, gets to choose who they'll hook next. Hooking someone three times in a row is tunneling. That part of it's definition isn't vague. Actual gen rushing is a 4man bringing full gen builds. I've never had that happen to me in thousands of killer matches.
We currently have a new killer who has built in slow down. He goes in OE and everyone gets off gens. I haven't seen this much inactivity in my matches since I was in the baby leagues. And do you know what I've seen in 50ish matches against Jason? Hard tunneling at 5 gens in almost all of them. More than I've probably ever seen in a short period. The gen rush excuse is bs. Killers default to tunneling either way. You slow down the gems and they just keep tunneling.
It's only the nature of the game because this company is too spineless to stop it. They tried. They put a bunch of work into a whole new gameplay system—and then they immediately caved to killers screeching that they'd quit the game. It's not like they're unaware of the problem.
To pretend like one side doing efficiency is toxic but the other isn't is what my post was saying.
I dont care the motives behind why someone plays efficiently. I wouldnt complain about a survivor looping efficiently, hugging the curb, bringing the optimum perks ect because thats them playing well. The gen rushing occurs when a killer doesnt apply adequate pressure, we agree. But you can bring things to make this harder on the killer, such as meta perks, a maxed out toolbox ect ect.
People complaining about tunneling are because its "unfun/takes them out the game" you dont know, nor care, why people are tunneling most games. Its a thinly veiled excuse to hide the fact that your mad you got taken out of a game that you believe you deserved to have escaped. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous. The unfun part is sadly a part of an asymmetrical horror, where the killer has to remove people from the game and is doing so efficiently. The devs have already given you some handholds, such as basekit BT and haste, as well as perks you can (and quite often do, according to survivor pickrate) take to make it as inefficient as possible because that's the nature of the game. They are aware of it and have put things in, but unless they wanted to casualise the entire game, it isn't feasible nor fair to add.
Any complaint about tunnelling has to be calling for a more casual game, because in nature your asking to stop the killers being efficient. However, in the past when survivors were asked about increasing times on gens (which would be one of the many steps theyd have to take to make it more casual friendly for killers) it was overwhelmingly outcried by survivors publically because that "wouldn't be fun". You cannot have it both ways, you cannot force the killer to remain casual whilst survivors can play in an efficient manner. It just isn't logical nor reasonable. The game would die the second that happened, and that's why I often remark the similarities between "gen-rushing" and the outcry against tunneling. Both are outcries against efficiency, and both should be treated with the same vein of respect.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090516#Comment_4090516
They say that the POTENTIAL of SWF is the biggest. This does not mean that SWFs beat Killers on a regular basis.
The comment you replied to, was responding to my comment "if both sides play hard" and then continued to talk about the best survivors vs best killer player.
The best SWF should by all means beat the best killer, which you should agree with since you said "the potential of swf is the biggest".
@wesker_shades said:
Tunneling should ideally only be a last resort kind of strategy. Not something you really should be able to do at 5 gens up, to heavily skew the match in your favor (not always guaranteed, but usually is).
Then again, when someone compares it to teabagging, it really isn't comparable.
Teabagging is more like taunting for attention, while hard-tunneling someone out is pure evil.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090516#Comment_4090516
Not quite true. The real ladder goes like this:
SoloQ → Casual SWF → Killer → Competitive SWFId say casual SWF are on par with killer tbh. Even casual gamers give callouts and an efficiency unheard of in soloqueue.
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@Yamalive said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090500#Comment_4090500
Hardly anyone agrees on that.
Otzdarva, hens, Scott Jund and a bunch of well respected top tier players have all said this on vod. Most agree it goes Soloqueue<killer<swf.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090395#Comment_4090395
I believe teabagging and tunneling we're brought up by OP hence why i used them in the quick post i made
Thr comparison is common. Tbagging tilts killers; tunneling frustrates survivors. Their similarities are that they both generate anger. We once had a thread that was pretty eye opening for me. I don't remember the topic but a lot of killers said they started tunneling not because of the classic "it's a strat" but because of tbagging, because dead survivors couldn't tbag them. At some point, I guess those sort of people stop doing it out of anger and just do it all the time. The connection between the two things is often emotion and not strategy.
i agree in the sense that if someone goes to stab me i might defend myself. If you go into games after a hard day at work and are met with humping/ hitting on hook after some particularly hard day you might be inclined to play a bit better and sweat after those games.
But what does that mean as survivor? I get humped for 4 games in a row and just decide I won't get downed so it doesn't happen again? That not really avoidable. But if I switch to killer and tunnel indiscriminately because I'm angry then that's childish. If you're playing out of anger then it's not tactics, its just random punishment.
what that means as a survivor is that instead of playing casually you progress your objective quicker, like the killer is doing, in the most efficient way. That might mean bringing sweaty perks, a maxed out toolbox, whatever floats your boat. You say "thats not avoidable" neither is it avoidable for the killer to not kill you. its part of their job. tunneling is just doing it efficiently. Complaining about tunneling should get as much respect as complaining about gen rushing, but it doesnt.
Just because one of them takes the other out of the game doesnt change this, thats sadly the nature of assymetrical horrors. The killer to win must kill you as quickly and effectively as possible. And survivors, they must rush the gens and loop and link tiles as effectively as possible to escape. Its like complaining about survivors holding w key, ridiculous.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090389#Comment_4090389
Stats say otherwise. So do streams.
Do they? Because most agree SWF beats killer, which is survivor. Which would be them playing in the most optimal sense.
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090489#Comment_4090489
Nope that dev or mod using dev account clearly did not know how his power works in game. I had this argument earlier in this thread with someone who did not want to believe that the dev could be wrong in their statement. I assure you Calm Spirit stops the screaming you can even test it yourself by playing Jason against bots equiping them with Calm Spirit and do jump scares around them they will not scream even if you get the killer instinct on them.
Ah ok ty :) thanks for clearing that up
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090483#Comment_4090483
They might have posted that but that is not the case. Calm Spirit does stop the screaming it just does not prevent the killer instinct.
I havent tried it tbh, so i just assumed the devs we're telling the truth
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@Cornil said:
So I just played my first game against Jason, killer decided to tunnel out the best player, it took him 4 and a half gens to do so, teammates refused to reset/heal so we ended up losing at the last half a gen. No big deal, I brought a hatch offering for killer's shack. Stealth my way over to the shack while my teammates are on hook, manage to make it there past Jason, get in the locker. Like, 15 seconds later the killer goes into omnipresent evil, teleports to the shack window, I scream in the locker and he opens it immediately.
Question: Is this a feature I never heard or saw during the PTB (if it is then RIP even harder to the OG stealth mechanics that make the game dynamic), is this a bug that happened between the PTB and release version that I should make a report for, or was this Jason player subtle cheating?
Would like to know if anyone else is experiencing this
Theyve already posted how calm spirit doesnt stop the scream, im assuming lockers are the same. It's meant to be a 3 metre unstoppable scream.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090464#Comment_4090464
I guess so.
His mobility is good onlky for big maps on small ones like dad dawng saloon its not worth using and his doors sometimes on some mains has terrible spawn like dead saloon where the door is under gen so survivors hear you come before they can even see you. Also its super easy to prerun if you have ears and he exits closest doors so not that great mobility for traveling across the map yes but overall not so goated as some claim.
His stealth is only good if he exits some doors bit further from gen he is coming to but still he has very loud footsteps and sound cue on axe so this breaks his stealth on close distance.
His axe is probably his best quality due to how good it can be at some loops that arent very long because its harder to use on longer distance then huntress is falls more so killer must aim higher but he has great orbital potencial its very hard but its there so high b-tier if you are good with axe like dude that palyed in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av2nh8E6yqs
here we could see that even best uknowns are just mostly harmless compare to good springtrap and some nasty shots he can pull if he is good.
Well done killer overall.
Still I remember when he droped the salt how his axe is op and from few people spaming posts here he is new ghoul (one even made sorry post for it latter).
XD id never say hes op, id say hes a good benchmark for what killers should be. A little bit of info, conditional mobility and a ability in chase, all tempered so its not op but still strong.
Jason has the basis to become just as good if not a better benchmark with a bit of nerfs.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090455#Comment_4090455
He was low a-tier now he is b-tier, the nerfs to his addons were so impactfull that they put him where he was without them.
Honestly we're just going to have to agree to disagree there. I believe his mobility, aura reading and info as well as ranged attack that has a low recharge make him at least low A. Not to mention non of this can be denied.
His add-on nerfs were impactful, but i dont think enough to take him out of A tier.
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@Raptorrotas said:
Oh we went from broken to "boring" already.
Anyways, which killer isnt? That stupid "boring" argument gets brought up for every killer.
Id agree if some parts of his kit didn't allow for much counterplay, when placed all together it makes him strong and boring.
As said in a lot of other posts, his power cd should be increased, his haste needs to be decreased in time its active and his scrap piles need to be fewer. Aside from that i enjoy both playing as and against him.
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@TheGoon224 said:
I am mainly talking about licenses that realistically could happen either due to the license holders being too stingy or literally just because the character that you want it’s just out built different, or maybe the license in general just sounds completely ridiculous in the context of DBD. That’s mainly what I want to talk about here so if you just have a license that is just you know way too out there go right ahead and say it I don’t judge. I wanted Godzilla in for a long time. And honestly, I still Kinda do. ( primarily either Shin or Minus one Godzilla)
I really want 2 licenses, and if either of them happen ill be over the moon.
Azula from atla as a killer, with aang as a survivor (killer could be a ranged with lightning attacks, and have perks surrounding snowballing off hooks/kills to show her madness) (aang has a new exhaustion perk or perks that punish a killer for missing a hit (like how he airbends in fights, exploiting openings/weaknesses).
Jim carrey's the mask, could either be a skin for michael or as a killer (id buy it instantly).
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090398#Comment_4090398
Springtrap held low a-tier only due to like 2-3 addons and they get nerfed asap and he isnt nowhere top tier more like in the middle.
Sure, springtrap is helf low a tier. low a tier is still a top tier killer. Anything above B tier should be addressed as top tier. Just because springtrap isnt ghoul levels of broken doesnt make him not strong. Blight is classed as A tier aswell.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090439#Comment_4090439
I addressed most of this in an earlier comment but for the unique points you've made I'll address them.
The spear hinders you if you remove it and gives free aura on the survivor. It's dramatically stronger than huntresses ability especially due to the fact it does not give you more distance as if you are pushed into a wall or any nearby object you lose the majority of your speed and can in many cases be doubletapped.
Ghouls ability is better in chase, however that's not what I said. Jason's ability is better for map traversal, ghoul still has to acknowledge different maps exist like RPD and the Game for his map mobility. Jason handles the maps that Ghoul is weaker on far better and travels through them at a much faster pace due to being able to teleport between floors with ease.
Jason's kit is extremely powerful and his spear is strong enough to be a power all on it's own given how it's better than springtraps axe. While he'd be weak if that was his only power he's got far too much going for him.Thank you for your time at the very least.
I agree with the hinderance, but springtraps also gives the same aura reading correct? Huntresses is weaker then his ill admit but he only has one, and i believe his animation is slower than huntresses.
Agree with the ghoul points, i just wanted to say he had comparible map mobility. And we all thought ghouls mobility was top tier anyway. only difference is he has to be at predetermined points.
And i agree he has way too much, hence my comments on other posts about nerfing his power cd, ability to reload and haste after shifting. but to say every part of his kit is op is a bit ott. as you yourself said the spear alone would make him weak. its not so much each individual part as it is having all of them (Ahem Vecna)
Thanks for the reply tho
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@Vergiveren said:
If he can be 4.6 range killer,why other range killers can't be?
I think the issue with jason is a lot of each individual parts of his power are mediocre. put together theyre insane.
Some nerfs to the speed boost duration, placement of scrap heaps and power cd would make him a strong b low a tier killer, and make him feel fairer to go against.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090396#Comment_4090396
Except people are avoiding taking aggro because of how broken he is. And this does nothing to solve the fact he can easily ignore anyone trying to take aggro to tunnel someone out. He needs moderate nerfs to how he works. He should not have better information than doctor, a better projectile ability than huntress, and be able to travel around the map better than ghoul.
I agree and disagree with this statement.
the parts i agree with: "moderate nerfs"- exactly, moderate nerfs to specific parts of his kit that are either overtuned or oppressive. examples: exhaustion add on and the cooldown to his tp/spirit phase. Also could use things like less scrap piles ect.
the parts i disagree: "better information than doctor"- this is objectively false. Doctors cannot be cancelled by crouching/ getting of a gen. And doctor has anti-loop and madness on top of his information.
"better projectile ability than huntress"- again hard disagree. If we look at the ability alone, it gives the survivor space by knocking them away and he needs to constantly reload in comparison to huntresses 7 hatchets.
"Travel around the map better than ghoul"- i agree and disagree with this, because ghouls ability is much easier to use in chase and also gives a unblockable free hit, but jason's gives info so its 50/50 for me.
Jason's issue isnt that any single part of his kit is strong as hell, it isnt. If he didnt have all 3 of these, he'd be c/d tier. Without the info hes spirit phasing and not able to hit out of it, and having to pop out at predetermined destinations. Without the ranged attack hes a worse wraith arguably.
People are avoiding taking aggro, which removes the part of the kit that is his weakest. Sure, before first chase this doesn't apply, but as soon as someone takes a hook a healthy survivor should take aggro so the others can unhook/ sit on a gen. If nobody is willing to do that, then that speak volumes on the survivors your playing with and yourself. You can loop a good jason unlike nurse. He is playable against.
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@Mr_K said:
Playing against the same killer over and over is boring. Guess what happens during a new chapter? The only killers that haven't received new chapter hate are the ones killer players find boring to play.
Agreed, and when a killer is incredibly weak (imo nemesis and trickster fit into this category) they often dont get played enough.
The issue is we've had some incredibly strong killers as of recent (ghoul, vecna (the first one) springtrap, jason,dracula, houndmaster on release) that make it so on release dealing with them non-stop isnt fun. Hopefully after a week or two it should slow down
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090342#Comment_4090342
The thing is hes either chasing someone alredy, or goes into omnipresent evil to look for someone and since everyone ends up crouch walking the only noticeable action is someone being unhooked, which he can go back to very quickly and alredy line up a shot.
This!
a lot of the invalid complaints about jason are because survivors refuse to take chase/aggro.
Theres valid complaints like hooks/scrap piles being too easy to get to mid chase, his power regening to quickly ect.
But the issue is if survivors aren't interacting with his power, he will just go to the next people he know's where they are.
When i play vs jason and someone is on hook, if im not on death hook im running around tiles waiting for him to appear, trying to take aggro at least so someone else can go for the unhook. My average chase length vs him is over a minute because most jasons cant hit their spikes to save their lives rn, so i can dodge the ones that are obvious. within that time 1 person unhooks, or both, and then they reset and get back on gens from my experience.
When i play as jason, nobody takes aggro so if that happens and im forced to go back to hook (i will often go round the map, and i have bbq to try and help me move onto another target, but they often go into lockers ect) i will do so.
It seems a lot of this complaint could be dealt with by survivors taking aggro.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090244#Comment_4090244
Tbagging and tunneling aren't fair comparsions. Tbagging is a usually pointless exercise in gloating; tunneling removes someone from the match. It's like some people are so tilted over someone tbagging them once that they use it as an excuse to punish random strangers.
And nobody voted that tbagging is fine. I don't tbag and it doesn't stop killers from tunneling me, nor does it stop them from the actual equivalences like hitting me on hook or humping me for no reason. But I don't react like a child and start tbagging random killers, nor do I become a merciless monster as killer, even if I get tbagged every match. Reacting that way is an inability to manage emotions.
If the community wants to shift to a more casual style of play, absolutely and once one side initiates this if the other doesnt then we can morally shame one side
There aren't sides here. There's no committee voting on these. Most people likely play both, and the way they act on one side is the way they'll act on the orher. You and you alone are responsible for your behavior.
I agree in the sense one is furthering the game.
Both are competitive esq behaviours though. As said, teabagging can be used to further the game especially if you are good at chases and want the killers attention. I believe teabagging and tunneling we're brought up by OP hence why i used them in the quick post i made.
"you and you alone are responsible for your behaviour"- i agree in the sense that if someone goes to stab me i might defend myself. If you go into games after a hard day at work and are met with humping/ hitting on hook after some particularly hard day you might be inclined to play a bit better and sweat after those games.
Im saying that quote for those that believe toxicity is one sided and their just reciprocating it to those that are indefinitely more toxic to them. If they believe their side is the non-toxic one, then they can also prove that by removing their toxicity.
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@NotPhoenix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090231#Comment_4090231
Yeah, sorry — I was mostly just venting and saying a lot of things I’ve seen commonly, but I apologize for making you think it was a troll post. It wasn’t, sadly. I do regret saying some things after reading your post, but there are some things I ran into from personal experience, like having to slug or tunnel or run OP perks on survivor because I simply get bled out. The whole ‘nobody having fun’ and ‘toxic community’ thing was because in every match I was getting death threats for simply playing the game and I was told I either don't make the game fun or ruin the experience for everybody. So it was mostly just venting/personal experience, and I was wrong about some things and needed fact checks and humbling in lieu of other words I can't think of rn, lol. So thanks.
(Side Note: Apologies for using abolutes in the original statement and I was quite a bit blunt unintentionally)
Ahhhh ok, nah thats chill. I can understand after a few rough games having quite a negative opinion especially getting bleed to death it really does hamper your fun in the game. I was just responding to it like most the posts here, apologies if ive been too harsh, after all its ok to feel frustrated after some incredibly harsh games it seems.
And death threats are incredibly OTT no matter how you played, im sorry you had to deal with that and hope your doing ok :)
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090244#Comment_4090244
This is a general rule in games, but DBD is balanced in such a strange way that if both sides play hard you will still see one win more often than not. It's by design. More often than not, fairness falls on the players' shoulders despite the game doing everything it can to tell you that that's not how to play. And that's not even getting into player mentality.
If both sides play hard, survivors often have the advantage. The best nurse vs a decent comp team can lose pretty easily if they mess up 1/2 times.
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@TurnOffTheTVs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090251#Comment_4090251
The problem is no one wants to take chase because he's incredibly oppressive in chase. Taking chase, means giving up your position and getting hit by jump scare. Getting hit by jump scare means most likely getting hit with a 13 second long exhausted effect because of his addon.
Then you have to deal with a chase against a 4.6 killer with one of the best ranged attacks in the game, that is automatically starting the chase from 5 feet away because unlike other ranged killers he doesn't have to make his way to you, giving you time to put space between you two (how it's meant to be) and he has very little real warning on his actual appearance.
Quite literally the only real way to gain distance against Jason is exhaustion perks… but he has an addon that completely shuts down that option, leaving you with nothing.
He's just poorly put together. It's a lose-lose currently.
id agree about the exhaustion perks and his needing a nerf to cd (the phase shift thing), however he doesnt have the best ranged attack in the game (pushes you back, so you gain distance), huntresses basekit is better and she doesnt need to reload, so is springtraps cuz again being push back is quite a big bonus to most survivors.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
After basically every recent survivor match being against Jason, I’ve concluded that he’s easily the most boring killer in the game to go against. The matches take forever because a vast majority of the time is spent with him in Omnipresent Evil while survivors crouch walk around the map and don’t do gens. Just incredibly lame and terrible design that actively discourages interaction between killer and survivor. I’d much rather go against Legion for mend simulator. Wondering how many others here feel the same way.
The issue is, hes only boring because survivors refuse to take the chase. Your complaint here is people crouch walking and getting of gens to avoid being chased.
That'd be like saying "oh X killer is boring because people have decided to hide in lockers instead of progressing the game and so it takes them forever to play the game".
Yes crouching helps you avoid detection from his power, but if all 4 survivors refuse to take chase then of course theres nothing he could do. And seemingly survivors response has been "but why can us crouching not cancel all info the killer power gives".
You shouldn't cancel out a killers power by crouching around the place. springtrap has similar mobility and you cant just stop him using his cameras or doors by looking at them.
Soft counters exist, but they shouldn't just shut out the killer from their power especially basekit otherwise they'd have to make the rest of his kit stronger to compensate. the reason hes a 4.4 is because his information is strong (otherwise he has 1 ammo as a ranged killer that has to move away to reload, hed easily be a 4.6 and have the rest of his kit buffed) and they recognise that. thats why they let survivors choose who gets chased, because hes freely given that info
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@HoodedWildKard said:
Braced for the downvotes but here we go. Try reading the full post before you knee jerk react.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like hard tunneling some killers just use it as the fallback or baseline playstyle, and they suck. Lots of killers tunnel because it's expedient, it's an excellent crutch for new/bad killer players and for mid/low skill survs it's basically a guarenteed loss and really sucks to play against. Tunneling someone out at 4-5 gens is proper maidenless behaviour. But mid-late game a tactical tunnel is often necessary.
Thing is, if you have a survivor team with 2 good chase runners who can out skill the killer, won't give an inch and 2 weak chase runner who the killer can down. What is going to happen? Prizes for the correct answer.
When I play killer, if I identify a survivor who can string a chase out and chain pallets, vaults, loop efficiently, 360 effectively etc then I won't commit to a straight up chase with them because it'll lose me gens. Double that if they're obviously trying to encourage chase, beckoning, clicking etc. I don't consider myself a particularly sweaty killer (I will often let 1 or 2 survs go per match) but I'm not going to double down on chases that will lose me the game. I'll wait until either they misplay for a save or unhook, or when I'm at a point where I have control of the game and can chase and down them at my leisure.
My Point is if you can outskill the killer and you stick the figurative boot in by never letting them hit you, then you're encouraging that killer to go after weaker members of the team. At which point you either rush gens as hard as possible and sacrifice a team mate to get out. Or you over commit to trying to wind up the killer and give them free pressure by not doing gens, throwing the game.
Sometimes to need to encourage the killer to go after you, not by antagonising them but by making them think they can get you. Walk around injured as an enticing target, make deliberate misplays to feign that you're bad at chase, even (shock horror) just full on deliberately take a hook.
Special mention for those particular individuals who deliberately take an endurance protection hit when you've just been unhooked then complain when you get tunneled straight away. Honestly what did you expect?
@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090161#Comment_4090161
I'm a strong advocate for tunneling in the current meta: but that being said, I'm not a fan of tunneling to tunnel. Tunneling should only be done when you get the feeling that a looper is too strong, a bully tactic is present, etc. In this particular context I'd agree with Aven - walking into every match thinking 'I'm gonna tunnel' is just fatherless behavior. Those killers I could care less about. If you are putting active, ongoing, intentional forethought energy into tunneling every game than you deserve the ire you get.
My one cent in this is that if you play the game to win, on either side, you should expect the other side to do the same. If the general survivor community is ok to gen rush, teabag at exit gates ect, they should also be ok with killers camping, tunneling and slugging ect.
If the community wants to shift to a more casual style of play, absolutely and once one side initiates this if the other doesnt then we can morally shame one side ect, but the complaining about efficiency on one side needs to stop. Survivors can encourage tunneling in many ways, and it could be from the match before ect.
Ive always been a "play how you wanna play" kinda gamer, so maybe im underthinking this.
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@SummerBreeze said:
Perk Extrasensory Perception doesn't work with Jason. Im not supposed to have killer instinct on me, but I do with Jason. Also, I shouldn't scream if I have Calm Spirit equipped. Jason power feels like cheating.
EP stops aura reveals, not killer instinct.
as the other guy said, crouch when hes in spirit form or whatever its called and its not a problem.
Hard counters are bad for the game, if 1 perk shut off all of jasons info it'd be bad for balancing. cuz then they'd have to balance around you possibly having that 1 perk.
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@Jay_Whyask said:
Just had a Jason DC almost immediately in a match with 4 party streamers because he thought a Lara was subtle cheating, she had Dramaturgy & used it while line of sight was broken.
In the future if a player has haste it would be wonderful if the perks granting Haste were visible in the bottom right corner of the screen similar to Dissolution.
The issue is, if this was implemented cheaters would just activate the perk using their cheats and the symbol would appear anyway, solving nothing but highlighting when a survivor used a haste perk and giving the killer more information.
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@NotPhoenix said:
DBD was a fun game, unfortunately it is getting close to being beyond repair and that's due to the toxic cycle this game has become, Run Meta or Get Crushed. If you don't slug or tunnel as killer then you get abused by OP survivor perks but if you don't run OP survivor perks then you still get bled out or tunneled. Even after that people STILL complain that their side is harder than the other but it all boils down to the age old statement of "My thing is more difficult than yours". The reality of it is that Behaviour has nurtured their game so poorly they made a community of hateful people who hate pretty much everything and a game that almost nobody finds fun anymore. It's out fault for becoming this way but it's Behaviour's fault for letting it slide.
The fact that this is your first post gives the impression that its a troll post, but ill play ball.
"run meta or get crushed"- if thats your impression, theres 1 of 3 reasons why it could be. 1) you've ran meta which has inflated your mmr past casual levels to the point you cannot exist playing "casual", 2) your secretly one of the 1% that 40% of this forum thinks they are part of or 3) killers/survivor casual players have been bullied out of the community, so you tend to get a better level of survivor/killer as the casuals get bullied out. Im assuming you believe its the third, but my suggestion is going to be its the first. try resetting your mmr, and playing without it. you might lose a couple games but it should (especially when theres a bunch of players) balance out eventually.
"if you dont slug or tunnel as killer you get abused by OP survivor perks"- see point 1 about resetting mmr, and take losses on the chin. Its sometimes unfun, but eventually you can be a casual gamer like a lot of us are.
"BHVR has nurtured their game poorly"- sadly this is not the case, as its easy to blame the game designers. Asymmetrical horrors have this issue, as do all online multiplayer games that pit people against each other. Toxicity is just a part of game due to its innate 1v4 nature, and theres nothing BHVR could do to completely stomp that out. Now is that to say they couldnt have implemented chat restrictions sooner, no, but they arent to blame for this community.
"nobody finds fun anymore"- theres lots of people who find it fun, thats how the games lasted so long. However, the better you get/play the stronger people you'll be against, and the less "casual" your experience will be.
"its our fault for becoming this way but its behaviour's fault for letting it slide"- im heavily of the opinion that had bhvr implemented half the stuff they have now it would've died off on release. chat restrictions, ip bans and much more moderation might've killed the game from those more toxic/sweaty (who were a majority of the playerbase back then and we are slowly shifting to becoming more friendly to newcomers) . I don't think we'd have made it to this point without those toxic tryhards, who kept the game afloat for years before it became the icon it is now. But yes, they couldve done more, however the blame primarily resides in the players, not BHVR
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4090175#Comment_4090175
I mean I just want countering Jason to feel meaningful, I wanna say 95% of my frustration with Jason is the constant OE. The spears I think are fine for the most part it's just frustrating you can dodge spears all day long but still get run down because he's 115% for some reason.
Your countering is meaningful, just not a hard counter my friend. As i said the stealth helps u if someone else actually decides to take chase. your issue is that everyone was unwilling to take chase. Everyone wanted someone else to take aggro so the game didnt progress because you all hid. this would happen vs any other killer, it just feels more prevalent because everyones being cowardly around jason and overestimating him
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@Xendritch said:
I think in a vacuum Jason's powers are all fine but after giving this enough time I'm realizing making mistakes on Jason basically doesn't matter. Miss a spear? Reload at a scrap pile or hook that are literally everywhere with a reload time that makes Huntress jealous while having more range than slinger while basically being 115% the whole time. Survivor make too much distance? Go back into mist form and catch right back up. Did they make too much distance again? Well your cooldown is 5 seconds so go right back into mist form. Didn't protect a 3 gen? Doesn't matter with his mobility. Survivors know the counterplay to mist form and you can't find them? Well you can basically just stay in mist form forever and force them to do something or else you're all stuck there forever.
I am okay with Jason being able to do everything he can do but this handholding is dumb and outplaying him doesn't feel good because any advantage you get is minimal because Jason can basically reset the situation anytime he wants. This feels like ghoul again but this time the skill floor is higher for sure but this time BHVR has provided an escalator for anyone that struggles reaching it.
So, the only thing in this post I agree with is the power complaint about him shifting too quickly. Everything else is down to your pathing/awareness. For instance, I agree with increasing his power cooldown by 5-15s depending on testing and finding the sweet spot.
However, him being able to pick up extra shots mid chase and you not gaining extra distance is down to how you path. His spikes are arguably a slightly stronger huntress hatchet, and she gets 7 of those. Being able to reload mid chase is nothing new.
Do you know what the good thing about mist form is for survivors? you can basically choose who takes chase and balance hooks that way, especially in the early game when he can only really pressure 1 survivor. Choosing who takes chases when is a huge advantage i dont see many posts acknowledging, since the others can crouch/not interact with gens and not get found.
The second paragraph seems like your advocating for hard counters, which im 90% certain your not because most people dont like it when either side can just shut down you doing something. Like if a killer could give infinite exhaustion ect. Hard counter's arent good for the game, because they just shut out one sides ability to do something. Crouching is currently a soft counter to jason, and it should stay that way
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@Cyndi_Looper said:
love his kit and play style however my index finger is sore holding down crouch for 3 minutes because no one wants to interact while he’s in his power. Can we get a time limit of how long he can be in omnipresent? 30s or something? He’d still be able to travel map wide, some games are held hostage by this and it’s boring
also the add on where he breaks gens is crazy opThe add-on breaking gens is strong imo, not op.
But to address the elephant of the post, the issue there is stated with what you said. You, and all other survivors, wanted to hide for 3 minutes rather than continuing the game and taking chase. Had one of you taken chase the rest would be free to hop on gens risk free, alas, you didnt. You instead wasted time.
For reference, this could happen with any other killer if you ran a stealth build and avoided gens, touching chests/totems to remove/stop birds and hiding in lockers. The only difference is Jason allows you there to essentially choose who takes the chase, whereas the others are down to who he see's first.
I understand, you don't want to be the first seen/aren't that confident in chase/ playing a gen build with 0 chase perks/ any other valid reason as to why you wouldnt want to be seen, but if you just choose to permanently hide rather than take chases this could happen in literally any other game.
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@For_The_People said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089987#Comment_4089987
Thanks very much and yes, I broadly agree with your point. My view ultimately is that as BHVR will probably best be able to look at, implement and test a solution or solutions that, although no doubt won’t be popular universally (as with most of the changes ever made in a live service game), it would be worth exploring and testing these things based on what the underlying data behind the sentiments are and if it presents a paradigm shift (which it will as regulating or managing slugging In whatever capacity or form certainly would drastically change things), then it would need handling as well as possible and may need a willingness to commit to the wider layers and nuances that would follow. Above all it would need courage.
I remember just how popular something like dead hard, CoH Franklin’s and gen kick era etc were. Those changes drew outrage in many quarters and is still grumbled at by some but the game has survived. Who knows, it may even lead to new metas or better health. It may even be worse - who knows? and that’s why I feel courage is needed to make changes IF they are warranted.Thats fair, nothing is worse than stagnance in games, especially when it comes to issues the general population can agree need to be addressed. IMO BHVR have came a long way since conception (I've played the game since 2018) and are slowly becoming better and better at addressing the playerbase's needs.
So yeah courage is needed, even if it makes it unbearable for a week or two, as long as when they set on that warpath, they commit to it. they dont do this as some sort of half-assed bandaid and then abandon any further attempts to balance it. This would need to be something they devoted considerable time to.
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@MeduSnake said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GSHQPTGHN4MZ/32554.gif
Hey look at me please don't eat that food to get free buffs until I poisend it so your a bit hindered for 3 seconds.
As i said on the other post, killers get variety by choosing their killer, and so most events try to focus on extra's the survivors can do and how the killer can interact with that.
This does however mean the survivors have a side objective, which slows down the games which ultimately benefits the killer, so they need to get buffs through doing this otherwise theyll just power through the gens.
On top of this, its not a gauranteed buff because as you've posted, they can be poisoned and debuffed.
Also can give extra pallets ect ect. Overall, could be a pretty fun event. Definitely gonna try it before I finalise an opinion, and could entirely eat my words if the buffs are horrendously one sided to the point of unplayability, but ill let them cook for now.
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089988#Comment_4089988
Only other nerf I would put on him is that if he stays too long in his power he loses the information it provides. Just to make end games with one survivor left be more interesting than him just sitting in a hill or spot where he can see both doors. It would also make him come out of the power more so the game does not grind to a halt when survivors keep crouching and he just keeps patrolling. That is literally the most boring part of his power for both sides.
How long are we talking, because doing that with a cd nerf could mean that he just gets 0 info from his power if people play correctly, which is his major strength. I'm very much against "hard counters" because they make the killer be unable to do stuff.
But i guess BHVR would have to test it out, for sure id say after 30s in power, but thats currently, idk how much the cd nerfs would change my opinion on this.
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The nerf's I've found to be reasonably suggested would be to increase the cd of his power so he can't spam haste ect. Which is honestly fair, since hes balanced around being 4.4 and making him have haste up most the time in chase isn't good for him.
Even increasing it by 5-10s would be a hit to the cd and give a bit more counterplay in the sense of looping.
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@For_The_People said:
Don’t know if I should enter the fray but I’ll say my opinion based on my thoughts and experiences.
I’m going to raise two points - one which is on whether slugging is toxic and another on whether it is abused. The conclusion and what is or should be ‘done’ about it will ultimately be one that only BHVR can decide and what makes them ‘decide’.
So let’s get the straightforward part of what I want to discuss out of the way first:
what I will say is that, you can look at something like power struggle, DS, deliverance etc and say they ‘can/are’ abused, but you also have the status quo of slugging in the category ‘can/is’ abused.
So in a way it’s like saying, we can’t restrict this thing that can and is abused because it is a valid strategy against something survivors can and do abuse if we don’t.
As I said, there’s no point in arguing whose point of view is the chicken or the egg, but the status quo right now, is that slugging can be abused and is being abused by ‘some/many’ and is available basekit to all killers regardless of their power, perks and add ons they’ll bring.
So MY opinion is that something that can and is abused out of the box has a bit more of a danger to the health of the game than something which can and is abused based on whether a survivor brings it or not.
I will say what I THINK should be done and it will be subjective. First of all, I agree with @AbsolutGrndZer0 ooint in that such a nerf or ‘anti’ measure will need to be done carefully to consider things such as whether it will affect others undeservingly and what could be a proper implementation and compensation otherwise it may or may not go down well for some.
we’ve seen beloved perks, play styles and other things come into the game many times before. The game has evolved and so has the need for changes. There was a time where bloodlust wasn’t a thing but came into the game shortly after, ditto window blocking. We’ve seen nerfs to DH, CoH, Franklins, face™ camping and many others on both sides - some have not gone down well for those who relied on it but the game has moved on and it survived regardless.
In conclusion, yes the game has many elements in a tug of war and everybody experience can be valid for them as to why they want something changed. The ones who only can change things at BHVR. People do have a right to express their experiences to surface them for BHVR who have the means to analyse how much of said claims are founded and to what extent they are a focus for the current and longer term health of the game. And by that I don’t mean just number of players but the actual health and balance for the majority, experienced, new, god-like and total potatoes alike.Granted that isn’t an easy task and so here we are.
So I would respectfully and sincerely hope that BHVR can focus on this and ideally work on a best-efforts solution (as certainly none can be perfect and will go down badly for some regardless).
🍰This is wonderfully written, I will just add a tiny disagreement I have with the post that the killer should be required to bring in a perk to do it, given how they only have 4 vs the 16 of the survivor perks. If we talk solely about solo queue, then sure it might be a fair comparison given if 4 of them take it and the killer has to take 1 perk. But if we talk even outside that and 2/3 people take it and still get tremendous value verses the 1 killer taking it.
Sure, you can argue that the killer might not take it ect, but a killer might not tunnel yet most would argue taking decisive strike is a must. I would argue this goes in the same category.
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@JesterVittorio said:
if holding some one on the ground for 4 minutes not doing 1/3 of your role as killer and getting hooks then tea bagging at the exit gates and pallets shouldnt be considered toxic.
Slugging to gain pressure isnt toxic because its furthering their objective. Bleeding someone out is toxic however, because they had ample time to hook and chose not to.
Teabagging is toxic in the sense your doing it to show off, it doesnt further your objective in any sense then to annoy your opponent especially at the end gates when you could leave, which is bad sportsmanship. As said above, I also believe bleeding people out unneccesarily is also toxic, due to the time it wastes, but im sure there could be times when id say both are reasonable aswell.
Teabagging to get the killers attention since you know your good at a chase, I would deem not toxic personally as that's you trying to keep the killers attention whilst others do gen's and serves a purpose in furthering the gamestate.
I could imagine a scenario where you slug someone in the middle of a 3 gen that you have to protect and just don't have the time to pick them up and due to the pressure you continue to provide end up bleeding someone out, its definitely possible, but unlikely.
Overall, it depends on why you do either action. Like if a wraith dings his bell after killing you, or a killed smacks you as you ascend to the entity, teabagging at the gate also serves no purpose than to annoy/ celebrate in front of your opponent gaudily, and these examples are all toxic.
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Counterpoint: this gives survivors alternate objectives, and slows them down, whilst also allowing you to poison the banquets and greatly hinder a survivor.
Killers have a lot of ways to change the way they play the game, through playing different killers and what perks they have which can shape the game, survivors dont have that much influence on how the game is played.
This event, whilst giving relatively little extra for killers to do, makes the survivors have extra objectives and more "fun" things to do that should slow them down whilst flavouring their gameplay.