Jason's most common playstyle
Currently since his release I'll admit that over 90% of the matches against Jason players involve him camping players on hooks in some form, either sitting in the omnipresent evil and waiting, or pretending to look for someone and then teleport back to the hook he is almost always there to throw something at the unhooked/rescuer in nearly every round. Has anyone else experienced this or is it just on my end?
Because with kaneki he could afford to fly around the map to find someone instantly and either begin chasing them or fly back to the hook as soon as the notification appears, but a ranged killer with high mobility power on a tiny cooldown, it seems very common they tend to not find someone fast enough or just like protecting hooks from afar.
Comments
Jason is just one of the best tunnelers in the game unfortunately, so many players lean into it.
Unfortunately?
It's called bad design. And I don't think anyone should defend this atrocious playstyle
I said unfortunately simply because the design of the character is out of our control. Aside from that I don't find tunneling much of a problem its just another strategy used to optimise the game. Sure its sweaty but at least that survivor gets to do the most fun part about survivor which is being in chase. Plus luckily nowadays its really hard to tunnel anybody with relatively good looping skills especially due to all of the new buffs to survivor we've gotten as of late.
I had a Jason come back to basement when i was hooked, throw a hook into me as I ran up the stairs, down me before i could do anything because the recovery after a throw is crazy fast, and then mori me. From unhook to down was 10s. Is that the most fun part of the game to you?
I mean throwing at the hook after or while the unhook is pretty normal for me because I played huntress before and it's a great crossmap-chance to take. And while I don't tunnel directly with him because it's so easy, I do it because I don't find anyone before - it does feel a bit stupid sometimes, but it would also be stupid of me to not do it if no one is on gens xD
The thing is hes either chasing someone alredy, or goes into omnipresent evil to look for someone and since everyone ends up crouch walking the only noticeable action is someone being unhooked, which he can go back to very quickly and alredy line up a shot.
I mean, he's very great at camping and tunneling due to his OE mode.
You just hook someone, OE away, wait for the unhook to happen, OE back.
I've had multiple Jason's do that to randoms or myself. It's either this, the ones who seek a javelin like a golden retriever and continuously spam javelins, if they cannot hit you they walk you down with a basic attack, or they just stay in OE mode waiting for you to touch or interact with anything like hexes, healing, or gens.
I'm not saying he's overpowered, I've won against him several times but I am thinking from the perspective of people who are not as strong in chase or the general health of the game where people will opt to DC just by seeing him in a match. Again, luckily I've only experienced like two DC's since his release but AGAIN what I experience isn't the norm and releasing a killer that pushes people into fear-based thinking (don't touch objectives) is objectively bad design.
Yes that's the reason I go back, otherwise would I prefer to the defend gens. I don't really know how you would fix that sadly:
I guess the other survivors could run or stay on the gen to take the aggro, jason could also use bbq - the problem with that is just that if I don't see anyone with it I assume that they are already close and start looking around. So I'm camping again
He has the most punishing anti-camp in the entire game built directly into his kit. Be real, you're healing under hook and going all surprised-pikachu-face when the Killer comes around to check.
It already does.
The Jasons I've went against are usually all Hex based ones
Ruin undying thrill and usually something like pain res. Seems pretty effective, started running Counterforce to try and offset it.
I will say though, one small thing that bothers me about Jason is - if he's trying to force out a survivor via proxying, he can eat through their endurance really easily if he hits the unhooker and unhooked survivor at the same time with a spear. Wesker can also do this if he grabs the unhooking survivor and slams them into the unhooked.
The big thing I noticed while playing Jason is that he is very punishing when it comes to Unhooking Survivors. Survivors normally just Unhook when he is in his Power. I would wait until he used his power so its on Cooldown and when he Is doing something else. I'll also not heal under hook against Jason because he really punishes that.
I also have noticed Jason's counter play is just Ratting half the match which I would like reworked. Its not just boring for survivor its also boring playing as him
This after spending an ungodly amount of time with huntress, I can attest that throwing a hatchet across the map at an unhook is just muscle memory at this point not to tunnel necessarily but for a cross map or easy injury and pressure.
As far as Jason goes( all my matches are perkless) the only major issue I have is with him is OE has no timer he can stay in it indefinitely while most other killers have a set time. His spear is less forgiving than huntresses hatchets that I can see especially at pallets and hitting over objects seem very easy to crouch or dodge due to the hit box not being a sphere. However they are by far the fastest as far as charge and distance it can travel. All in all he needs some number tweaks for sure, maybe a 6-9 secs on sauna rock maybe, and a fixed time to be in oe that way the power feels like you have to prioritize when to use it vs just spamming it whenever with no downsides.
In my matches that I've played with the punish for teleporting around the hook works and seems fair, the problem is that you can just wait in oe until the unhook occurs. He's definitely a hyper tunneler and I can already see the skull merchant effect creeping up with the dcs. He is a new killer and as time goes on people will get better and better against him, "huge" knee jerk nerfs aren't gonna do the game any good for either side and neither will leaving him as is.
I see what you mean. Staying longer in oe is also just useless often - at least I can't remember a time where I stayed in for 1-2 minutes and actually found someone that way, so they can also limit it. I mean it only has 12 seconds cooldown anyways, I think that's lower than dredges even tho it's worse xD
Oh also I have a 83,33% killrate. While I'm sure that it will go down at some point when people find out the counterplay, I also think it wouldn't be too bad if it makes the people happy to weaken him a bit. (Funny thing about this quote is that I usually play with crossair and 120 fps and the same dpi of 2400. That score is on a gaming laptop on 60 fps, without crossair and a cheap mouse without a way to change dpi xD)
This!
a lot of the invalid complaints about jason are because survivors refuse to take chase/aggro.
Theres valid complaints like hooks/scrap piles being too easy to get to mid chase, his power regening to quickly ect.
But the issue is if survivors aren't interacting with his power, he will just go to the next people he know's where they are.
When i play vs jason and someone is on hook, if im not on death hook im running around tiles waiting for him to appear, trying to take aggro at least so someone else can go for the unhook. My average chase length vs him is over a minute because most jasons cant hit their spikes to save their lives rn, so i can dodge the ones that are obvious. within that time 1 person unhooks, or both, and then they reset and get back on gens from my experience.
When i play as jason, nobody takes aggro so if that happens and im forced to go back to hook (i will often go round the map, and i have bbq to try and help me move onto another target, but they often go into lockers ect) i will do so.
It seems a lot of this complaint could be dealt with by survivors taking aggro.
Except people are avoiding taking aggro because of how broken he is. And this does nothing to solve the fact he can easily ignore anyone trying to take aggro to tunnel someone out. He needs moderate nerfs to how he works. He should not have better information than doctor, a better projectile ability than huntress, and be able to travel around the map better than ghoul.
Go watch competent teams and count how often they heal under hook. Healing under hook is the most time efficient way to heal unless the survivor has a way to heal themselves. If the killer chooses to come back the time taken to move away can easily be the thing that prevents the heal from completing. Run away and scratch marks give you away and even if you walk you will leave a blood trail without gaining any real distance. In solo queue especially its often heal under hook or don't heal at all. Just saying don't heal under hook is the typical no nuance bad advice so many people try to push onto the survivor role.
He can't know who he's seeing in oe, so he can't tunnel with it really if survivors decide to let the unhooked person hide and the unhooker takes the aggro by running around. also his information are not better than doctors (the range is 16 meters of his jumpscare, doctor at least 40), his projectiles are kinda like huntress hatchets with the downside you have to go out of your way to reload (and a smaller hitbox btw) and you only have one and his ability to get around the map fast is not that unique.
His pure chasing is the same like huntress with the ability to actually throw over rocks (at least some of them), he is 4.6 if he jumpscared you before but even that is not really insane because there are a few 4.6 killers that can hit you dropping palettes and are 4.6 (pyramid head, dracula and artist if played over corners, just to name a few). The pushback of his spear actually gives you more distance after a hit I believe so it's even better for you.
So the only really insane things about him are probably oe and some of his addons. There is really no reason to be so scared being chased by him that you let him tunnel someone else instead.
He uses his ability to return to hook in a matter of seconds, if the unhooked person crouches they are not far enough away to get anywhere and if they run then sure it could be a 50/50 but either way the unhooked person is still likely within sight of the hook. Similarly the 'advice' of don't do anything ever besides crouching is just a prolonged way to lose the game and incredibly boring.
Doctor can only static blast every every 45~30 seconds if I recall correctly and has very obvious counterplay of lockers or just not being in his terror radius. Jason not only ignores lockers and every stealth perk and resource survivor has but more importantly can act on his information instantly. Doctor still has to go to wherever people scream at while Jason is already there. That is why his information is dramatically better. He also has no real way to tell when he's nearby unlike doctor so again the 'counterplay' of do nothing the majority of the match besides crouch is not a real solution here.
There are so many scrap piles and hooks that you won't actually have to go out of your way the majority of the time so that's a moot point. Also his chase is not the same as huntress. Huntress is a 110 movement speed while Jason is 115. He's able to zone dramatically easier as his wind up is significantly shorter than huntress. His haste lasts for 25 seconds after jumpscare which means he's practically speaking always a 115 movement speed. And as for your counter examples of other ranged killers, none of them have Jason's level of free mobility and free information, if Jason's spear was his only power then sure you'd have a great point but it's not and thus your point is moot. Also the spear does not give you more distance because his attack cooldown is incredibly short and he can throw you into a wall which negates all of the boost.
While I respect the fact you have taken time to write this comment it's clear that you need to do more work in understanding the simple fact that Jason is horribly unbalanced in his current state and is easily an S tier killer.
I agree and disagree with this statement.
the parts i agree with: "moderate nerfs"- exactly, moderate nerfs to specific parts of his kit that are either overtuned or oppressive. examples: exhaustion add on and the cooldown to his tp/spirit phase. Also could use things like less scrap piles ect.
the parts i disagree: "better information than doctor"- this is objectively false. Doctors cannot be cancelled by crouching/ getting of a gen. And doctor has anti-loop and madness on top of his information.
"better projectile ability than huntress"- again hard disagree. If we look at the ability alone, it gives the survivor space by knocking them away and he needs to constantly reload in comparison to huntresses 7 hatchets.
"Travel around the map better than ghoul"- i agree and disagree with this, because ghouls ability is much easier to use in chase and also gives a unblockable free hit, but jason's gives info so its 50/50 for me.
Jason's issue isnt that any single part of his kit is strong as hell, it isnt. If he didnt have all 3 of these, he'd be c/d tier. Without the info hes spirit phasing and not able to hit out of it, and having to pop out at predetermined destinations. Without the ranged attack hes a worse wraith arguably.
People are avoiding taking aggro, which removes the part of the kit that is his weakest. Sure, before first chase this doesn't apply, but as soon as someone takes a hook a healthy survivor should take aggro so the others can unhook/ sit on a gen. If nobody is willing to do that, then that speak volumes on the survivors your playing with and yourself. You can loop a good jason unlike nurse. He is playable against.
I addressed most of this in an earlier comment but for the unique points you've made I'll address them.
The spear hinders you if you remove it and gives free aura on the survivor. It's dramatically stronger than huntresses ability especially due to the fact it does not give you more distance as if you are pushed into a wall or any nearby object you lose the majority of your speed and can in many cases be doubletapped.
Ghouls ability is better in chase, however that's not what I said. Jason's ability is better for map traversal, ghoul still has to acknowledge different maps exist like RPD and the Game for his map mobility. Jason handles the maps that Ghoul is weaker on far better and travels through them at a much faster pace due to being able to teleport between floors with ease.
Jason's kit is extremely powerful and his spear is strong enough to be a power all on it's own given how it's better than springtraps axe. While he'd be weak if that was his only power he's got far too much going for him.
Thank you for your time at the very least.
I agree that it doesn't help if he's instantly back at the hook but I don't know how your eyes work but literally sitting behind a rock would work for him to not know that you exist. As long as the person that was unhooked crouches behind a nearby rock not moving and the other person just rans or stand there you have succefully taken the aggro. As soon as his oe ends you can just run away behind cover and you're good. He could still hear or see you, but at the point he's not on top of you and you didn't get surprised and it's pretty likely that he will chase the other person.
Those information you're talking about could you also get by looking around. People behind a rock crouching won't be screaming anyways, people running would you most likely also see by just looking around after appearing again, people at gens and totems you can even hear if I remember correctly. His screaming alone is not really information specific to him. What you could say is that you're able to move quickly around the map to get these but you know what? You can also get those informations with dracula and sprit because people crouching at rocks are not detected anyways and you can also hear them in both cases - the only difference there is that you can't see people walking but even them you can hear in theorie. I guess the point with the lockers and stealthperks is something, but why even bother with that if you could just crouch?!
His the windup of his spear does not matter at all. I can also threaten you with a hatchet not charged, and you know what? You also can't instantly throw with jason, he also has to wait a bit - because of his smaller hitbox it's even easier to miss shots like this. Also he walks 3.2 while holding his spear, so his 4.6 don't matter at all for that. Also his reload still makes him worse than huntress or can he throw 7 spears without reloading once?
As of the ecample of the rangekillers, those where purely for being able to hit you behind a palette and being 4.6, all 3 of them can even hit you behind the loop. Also the information from jumpscare doesn't help you chase, also his mobility doesn't really make him any more op than any of those 3 (maybe artist, because you have to setup). Oh while we where at zoning above, pyramid head is a monster in that too, so it's not even unique to huntress and jason - you can litterally hold the line with him and block the palette because the survivor will never step over it, it's even easier now with the new speed of his attack.
I can't say anything against the boost being gone if you're thrown against a wall, but how often does this happen if you not on a indoor map that's generally bad for jason? So this does not even matter in 90% of the cases, even less because he has to reload in some way so he wastes time yet again. The attack cooldown is also something I guess I can agree with, but I don't think it's worth the extra distance of the speer after which you still have to reload.
Basically all of your problems come only from the infinite duration of oe because in chase he simply is not as good as you believe, his information are also not that insane and I won't go down from this opinion. Your crouching would also be fixed that way, or you just look around and start being aware where he could appear - then you can also just chase against him and even bait him to jumpscare at specific palettes.
I don't understand how you could ever compare that to a nurse or blight (which you did by calling him s-tier) even tho a simple rock can already make you cry lol.
I agree with the hinderance, but springtraps also gives the same aura reading correct? Huntresses is weaker then his ill admit but he only has one, and i believe his animation is slower than huntresses.
Agree with the ghoul points, i just wanted to say he had comparible map mobility. And we all thought ghouls mobility was top tier anyway. only difference is he has to be at predetermined points.
And i agree he has way too much, hence my comments on other posts about nerfing his power cd, ability to reload and haste after shifting. but to say every part of his kit is op is a bit ott. as you yourself said the spear alone would make him weak. its not so much each individual part as it is having all of them (Ahem Vecna)
Thanks for the reply tho
Hell yeah we're all sick and tired of the camping and tunneling Jason players!
I don't think it's enough that he is 3 times slower to come out of his power, that we have base-kit borrowed-time, 10 extra seconds on each hook stage, pallet density, heavily improved UI (to improve coordination), body blocks, and 100 perks to counter tunneling!
we need more hand-holding! plz devs give survivors more buffs and nerf killers!!
2400dpi is diabolical lmao. I learned my nurse way before I touched huntress at 2300, but then I found hunty and now I hover around 900-1200 dpi. Dann you cooking with Jason bro lol I'm hovering around 63ish but that also due to me allowing teams to leave when I know they're new etc. my win rate however with him is 83% currently on a 10 game perkless win streak first couple matches I played him had no clue about his power or anything. (Not that they mean squat).
Are you more consistent at the higher dpi or the lower when I started learning years ago I followed Ralph and Coco heavy and barely caught Robo before he left.
2400 is nothing, I have muscle memory for 2400 (basically everything especially ranged killers) and 4000 (blight, hillbilly, chucky and so on) at the moment. My old was 6k where I played mostly blight. With 900-1200 I couldn't play, this is way too slow for me :D
I didn't lose a single of those matches, the first two of the 30 where actually the first one a disconnect and the second a game crash. The 28 after that where mostly 4k's sometimes a hatch escape - so in theorie I'm at a 28 streak with hatchescapes allowed. But I also use ruin, undying, bbq and bamboozle with the iri that reloads at vaults and kicks and the one that lets you kick gens in omnipresent evil.
I am more consistant with 2400 which I would consider slow xD
get rid of the killer instinct and give the reloading spears a cooldown way too easy to play Jason
Ah, Apologies I did not realize how new you were to the game I had written my previous comments with more experienced players in mind. I'll try to explain why your wrong, please let me know if there's any terminology you don't understand. Please however let me know if you are a more experienced player and simply forgot how being injured works.
So… to start with the reason why you can't just crouch behind a rock is because after being unhooked you are in the injured state and make a lot of noise. While you could then say just run iron will, his popular and broken add-on the sauna rock disabled iron will. Likewise many maps and hooks will have areas where there's no cover and no way to really hide given the blood trails and scratch marks one would leave behind and as established crouching does not get you enough distance to get away and you would instantly be heard thanks to being loud from being injured.
Second, survivors can't spend the entire game not doing gens and while dracula and spirit have their own things, they aren't nearly as strong. Dracula has a long and very obvious time for survivors to react and he can't see survivors while in bat mode and spirit has directional audio ques. Jason has neither as his is a global effect and as such there's no real counterplay besides do nothing and be bored until he decides to come out of his unlimited power. Thank you for mentioning spirit by the way as a comparison, she at least has a power gauge to help balance her, Jason has none. Seriously I can't stress this fact enough, no other killer's counterplay is to do nothing for the majority of the match. That is insane slowdown for free and that's before adding in perks and add-ons.
Third, the windup matters a lot. He's faster than huntress and all the ranged killers due to his haste and in addition having a faster windup speed means he can zone and catch up faster than any other ranged killer in the game. This means several things. First being that in chase if the survivor reads correctly the Jason they are still punished as he is much faster than other ranged killers and will be able to get m1s the other killers would not be able to get just by walking around thanks to his fast speed and if not an m1 then easily able to get a m2 thanks to his low wind up time. Finally Jason does not really need to reload like huntress. There are so many scrap piles and hooks on maps that he will always have a quick and easy way to reload and not lose any distance in chase. Huntress has a long animation and is a 110 movement speed killer. If you manage to juke her enough that she runs out then you will more or less win the chase and get away or massive distance. Jason has none of this and just needs to be in the same area as a hook or scrap pile. His animation is quick and as far as I can tell does not slow him down in any real way.
The boost being gone matters a lot since again because Jason is a 115 movement speed killer he can easily catch up to m1 range, throw you into something and then doubletap you within a second or two. Other ranged killers this would be much riskier but Jason is faster and thus has minimal to no risk for extremely high reward. Likewise he can simply throw a survivor into a deadzone or in many cases back down into basement by camping the top of stairs which is also an easy way to get an instant down and quite frankly the argument of he's allowed to be broken and impossible to win against on some maps is not a great argument.
The information from his jumpscare/ominpresent evil matters a lot. This cuts down on time that killers need to look for survivors. There is a reason why Lethal Pursuer is one of the best perks for killers due to the fact it shows where survivors are at the start of the match. By spending more time applying pressure to survivors it makes everything the killer does more effective.
My problems with him comes from the fact he more information than any other killer in the game, he has an insanely strong projectile that is better for getting downs than springtrap or huntress, he's impossible to beat if he tunnels, and as has been talked about many times so far his only 'counterplay' is to do nothing and just wait around for awhile until the server closes. In short, he's oppressively boring to play against which is unforgivable in a game.
Bro I have almost 3600 hours. But I realized now that we won't come to a conclusion we both agree to, so I just end it here xD
He needs longer cooldowns on things for sure, and also a duration cap to Omnipresent Evil, considering how he can stay in that form indefinitely.
Now that I got to sleep on it for a bit, I think the best adjustments to his kit and power would be the following:
Also, getting a free "Turn Back the Clock" on every gen he pass by in power is not a good design, especially considering how spammy his power is. At least TBTC requires you to be out of power to use it.
I've had a jason camp me until i died and didn't get a full anti-camp timer, they need to fix it
i would say 40-50% of my kills stem from healing under hook. i really think thats one of biggest ways for survs to get themselves killed.
If im not actively in chase, i will always rotate back to hook because 90% of the time 2 or more survs are hook healing which equals another hook for me in very little time
Anti camp in general sucks, they need to remove the stopping it if a survivor is nearby unless they are in chase, it's stupid. A change like this would help solo q so much honestly, the amount of people who've made me go into phase 2 when someone hard camps me.
Also Jason's strongest playstyle is definately tunneling, the locker reveal particularly needs to go while in OE, if crouching works so should that.
True, he was in his power invisible it's crazy i didnt get any anti-camp, there's few killers i can name that go into invisible mode and the timer goes up rapidly. Him being able to see you in locker shouldn't be a thing either
I am not saying you should always heal under hook, I am simply stating that the advice to never heal under hook is equally bad advice. If you know the killer is busy/across the map it is better to heal under hook. If the killer has shown a habit of returning to hook or you have a way of knowing that they dropped chase to possibly return (like Jason going into OE) then don't unless you know the heal can be completed before they get there. Teammates trying to get away from hook to heal somewhere "safer" has often been what resulted in them going back on hook because we didn't have time to finish a heal before the killer found us and we would have gotten a heal off had we stayed. Its not a simply do or don't, its a nuanced decision to make with solo queue further compounding the nuance since as I mentioned its regularly heal now or accept the possibility of never getting healed. I run bond in basically all my solo queue matches in part to find people to finish heals (and generally keep tabs on my teammates).
Springtrap does not give hindered when removing the ax but yes, they both give aura reading. Also no his animation is much faster than huntress, consider the time it takes to fully charge a hatchet, he has that all the time faster than it takes for huntress to just pull out a hatchet.
Ghoul's map mobility is so good it's almost a killer power by itself, I just wanted to use them as a benchmark to show that Jason's broken.
You are right that it's only when every part of his power is together is he op, the spear alone would make him slightly weaker than springtrap. Likewise if he just had omnipresent evil he's probably be on the same tier as doctor. It's only the fact that he has so much going for him that he's overpowered.
Also you are welcome, I hope you are having a good day.
I feel like his most common playstyle, at least in my experience revolves around two addons:
Those two addons in combination feel dirty af. Tunneling is semi-common and can be performed using the above strategies.
Have we forgotten bubba
I mean realistically hot take Jason is better at tunneling than Bubba due to the fact that Bubba needs to be right next to hook in order to snowball off of the tunnel whilst Jason can 2 tap from ranged, or snipe then teleport up.
If your fully charging hatchet as huntress as the majority of your shots you doing something wrong.
Most the time your holding it for a second more maybe.
2nd point is fair.
And yeah my day is going amazing, hope yours is too :)