Abyast1
Abyast1
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098438#Comment_4098438
No his ranged attack is shot for shot much better than any of those individually. It's way easier to hit than huntresses, and is a guarenteed health state u like deathslingers. Plus the disruption of the push and lack of slowdown after throw makes it much easier to 2 tap people. And the 7 hatchets in reserve doesn't really apply when jason can just grab another spear from every junk pile and hook which are spread all over the map, midchase without any appreciable slowdown.
Fair point OE wouldn't be a particularly good power on It's own, but instant traversal with very little cooldown is strong on any killer and makes his powerful ranged attack even more OP.
"Its way easier to hit than huntresses"- its also way easier to dodge
"it is a guarenteed health state unlike deathslingers"- If your not getting the hit from a deathslinger shot then your doing something wrong, and since most deathslingers should be running forced penance if they bodyblock they get broken and you get a healthstate on someone.
"Plus the disruption of the push and lack of slowdown after throw makes it much easier to 2 tap people"- Unless the survivor walks into a wall they should make distance to the next loop from the pushback+speed burst. Your definition of 2 tap here has to be hitting twice within 30s, which huntress can do much better.
"7 hatchets in reserve doesnt really apply when jason can just grab another spear from every junk pile and hook which are spread all over the map midchase without any appreciable slowdown"- During a loop of any TL/jungle gym tile, you can reload at best twice, and even then have to go out of your way to reload the second time most the time. The survivor can then choose either to leave the tile or continue looping it. 7 hatchets is infinitely more forgiving then the 1 spike when after the first reload you need to go 4/5s out of the way (losing 10s total) to get another spike, and huntress lockers are everywhere. The slowdown is the 10s/12s he spends going out of his way to get said spike. And if he misses, look at where hes going to reload and make distance off it. ITS NOT HARD. this is easily the worst argument you couldve made.
"Fair point OE wouldn't be a particularly good power on It's own, but instant traversal with very little cooldown is strong on any killer and makes his powerful ranged attack even more OP." - we agree here. His ranged attack is made Strong (not OP imo, a few small tweaks are needed) by having the traversal and the haste off power. The issue is we see instant traversal on a bunch of killers (dredge, springtrap, xenomorph hey even arguably hag) and we see that that alone isn't strong. And again, his ranged attack alone would make him B/C tier, because its a 1 shot reload with nothing else and has a pretty unforgiving hitbox given how easy it is to juke.
Overall, the nerfs I personally think he needs are reduced haste from 25s to 10s, decreased scrap pile spawns and increase OE cd so he can't spam it, and once he uses it he has to commit.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098390#Comment_4098390
Yeah this is my issue with jason. Either one of his powers would work well enough on it's own for a killer. Particularly the spear, far and away the best single ranged attack any killer has atm.
Both together is kinda of nuts.
Are you absolutely sure his recovery is worse than huntresses? I might need to test them in customs but having played both I'm sure huntress is slowed and unable to swing for longer after a shot than jason. Or maybe it's the disruption of jason's attack pushing you and making you hut and object that you then have to move around.
On their own they're mediocre powers, if he just had OE he would be an m1 killer with a tp, so bootleg dredge. Or just a worse huntress, because huntress has 7 hatchets at once basekit, and can reload at lockers (much more convenient) and have a bigger hitbox then jason spears. This is just, on its own, worse than huntress/deathslinger/springtrap. It the issue of both of those plus haste making him unbearable.
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098304#Comment_4098304
Would literally just go back to the same style of game it was back when he could degress the deepwound survivors got by hitting them again in power. No way we should add that back in any form in my opinion.
If they did this, Id also implement a "if you hit a survivor in deep wound your forced out of power" to match, so the max they could do is 2 per power, and it'd only affect one person.
I also remember the old style, but that was downing someone off 1 use of power, this would take 3 if they hit someone not fixing deep wound.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098302#Comment_4098302
…does that not show the power difference AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.
The rules of these tournaments are typically match result vs match result under the same circumstances, not necessarily judged by how many kills you got. The kills metric is more what casual DBD uses. But the point stands. You are more likely to Win/Draw than you are likely to lose, if you measure by normal win standards. That is not however the perception of the community. The perception is that you almost always lose, which is incorrect.And the chance of them being a high tier killer with a sweaty build and 4000+ hours in the game are infinitely less
Not really. The killer always has all factors going for them. The only thing they need to bring is their skill level. Obviously, if the other team has a higher skill level, you are (typically) meant to lose.
As a killer, you simply select your killer, the best perks, and your strongest add-ons, which killers often run, and you're in as good as a position as you get. The match results shown are however of a way less common scenario. A full team of 4 BNP's occurs way less frequently as a killer simply running meta. So even in load-out alone, killers are more likely to run the strongest loadouts compared to a full survivor team.I will also say, however, that being good as killer takes a lot more than being good as survivor, which you acknowledged the skill floors of both roles are hugely different.
I do not necessarily agree that being good at killer takes more than survivor. What I do agree with is that, due to survivors only having to learn survivor once, and a killer typically diving into multiple killers, that they have a lot to learn if they are variety players. However, the role of survivor is probably the most complex, as a standalone by itself. But yes, if a killer switches between killers, there is more for them to learn in total, and it would definitely be harder to optimize ALL killers, versus only optimizing the survivor role.This is where you truly lose me. This would make soloqueue unbearable for the better survivors (mostly streamers) because
I'm not sure if I understand you here. What I'm saying here is not a suggestion. This is already the reality, and it doesn't have the effects you're describing it would. What it does however, is allow for the BEST killer players to be able to have a dominating experience with the complete killer roster, in which their winrate is 90-98%+Disagree as said before you've either intentionally looking at those stats faultily, or are framing them to make your argument for you.
I do not look at the stats faultily. I correctly acknowledge that you have bigger chance of not losing a match, when playing under the most extreme conditions that this game have to offer. Conditions so extreme that people will rarely if ever experience when playing as a killer in a casual max mmr queue.
Sometimes you might run into an SWF. Sometimes you might play against a full BNP team. Sometimes you might bump into a comp team that is win-streaking with unique perks. But seldom will you ever get a full competitive world class team on comms with absolute meta perks and 4 BNPs. And should you get them, than you, with your own available skill, should have a higher chance of getting a different match result than a loss on an A-S tier killer. Something that the community definitely has a hard time acknowledging.The rules of these tournaments are typically match result vs match result under the same circumstances, not necessarily judged by how many kills you got. The kills metric is more what casual DBD uses. But the point stands. You are more likely to Win/Draw than you are likely to lose, if you measure by normal win standards. That is not however the perception of the community. The perception is that you almost always lose, which is incorrect.
Agreed, you don't always lose, and if thats how you perceive this communitys perception of the killer role. Yes, that is wrong. However, As i said, this is at the highest level, and your own metrics show your less likely to win then you are to lose, a draw is a net neutral event, you didnt beat the survivors, the survivors didn't beat you, so to try and lump them in on one side SEEMS (although probably isn't your intention) disingenuous.
Not really. The killer always has all factors going for them. The only thing they need to bring is their skill level. Obviously, if the other team has a higher skill level, you are (typically) meant to lose.
As a killer, you simply select your killer, the best perks, and your strongest add-ons, which killers often run, and you're in as good as a position as you get. The match results shown are however of a way less common scenario. A full team of 4 BNP's occurs way less frequently as a killer simply running meta. So even in load-out alone, killers are more likely to run the strongest loadouts compared to a full survivor team."The killer has all factors going for them. The only thing they need to bring is their skill level"- this is just not true though. You yourself acknowledged that weaker killers struggle ect. And the same could be said to survivors. The best survivor will win more often than not against average killers, because thats who they'll face. Because all the best survivor needs to do is bring a meta build, a maxed out toolbox, and rush those gens, taking chase where possible, and even bad survivors will touch gens when not pressured. The best survivor can have high escape rates in soloqueue because theyre good enough to carry a team. Otz's soloqueue escape rate probably 70%.
"a team of 4 BNP's occurs way less frequently as a kilelr simply running meta."- But a team bringing 4bnps will be infinitely stronger than a trapper bringing hex build or full meta ect ect. Entirely depends on the killer.
I do not necessarily agree that being good at killer takes more than survivor. What I do agree with is that, due to survivors only having to learn survivor once, and a killer typically diving into multiple killers, that they have a lot to learn if they are variety players. However, the role of survivor is probably the most complex, as a standalone by itself. But yes, if a killer switches between killers, there is more for them to learn in total, and it would definitely be harder to optimize ALL killers, versus only optimizing the survivor role.
Your graph shows the skill floor of killer being 2 whilst the skill floor of survivor being 0. Your graph. The level of skill needed to be mediocre at killer is way less than the skill needed to be mediocre at survivor, due to how survivors can hold w at loops and drop pallets, whilst killers decision making and mind games take recognising survivor patterns, which takes a lot more. Learning 5 killers vs learning to play vs 5 killers, playing against them is easier.
I'm not sure if I understand you here. What I'm saying here is not a suggestion. This is already the reality, and it doesn't have the effects you're describing it would. What it does however, is allow for the BEST killer players to be able to have a dominating experience with the complete killer roster, in which their winrate is 90-98%+
Can you name a single killer main with a killrate of above 80%?????????? I watch some of the good killer mains and they average around 65% killrate. And it does have the effect im describing, because the best survivors already only play in their teams. Most comp squads stay within their comp squads and play tourneys/practice matches quite a lot, the best survivors already shift towards swf. And the latest stats say only 48% of survivors are soloqueue, which would mean the majority even outside of comps are shifting to swf. By definition.
I do not look at the stats faultily. I correctly acknowledge that you have bigger chance of not losing a match, when playing under the most extreme conditions that this game have to offer. Conditions so extreme that people will rarely if ever experience when playing as a killer in a casual max mmr queue.
Sometimes you might run into an SWF. Sometimes you might play against a full BNP team. Sometimes you might bump into a comp team that is win-streaking with unique perks. But seldom will you ever get a full competitive world class team on comms with absolute meta perks and 4 BNPs. And should you get them, than you, with your own available skill, should have a higher chance of getting a different match result than a loss on an A-S tier killer. Something that the community definitely has a hard time acknowledging."I do not look at the stats faultily, I correctly acknowledge that you have a bigger chance of not losing the match"- to act like a draw is a positive for killer is insane. To say that a draw is a net positive for killer means its a negative for survivor, which is just false. It is a net neutral event. So if we look at the win vs loss rate its loss heavy, which you have refused to acknowledge repeatedly throughout both your original comment and the later address to my comment, and have used it as a basis to fuel the rest of your post. Your not lying, your just misrepresenting the stats to fit a narrative you want to push.
"Sometimes you might run into an SWF. Sometimes you might play against a full BNP team. Sometimes you might bump into a comp team that is win-streaking with unique perks. But seldom will you ever get a full competitive world class team on comms with absolute meta perks and 4 BNPs. "- Firstly, SWF is 52% of the playerbase as per the most recent stats. Secondly, I could shift this entirely on its head. Sometimes you might face an S tier killer. Sometimes you might bump into an S tier killer with an insane build thats meta breaking. But seldom do you go against a full competitive world class killer with 4000+ hours on their killer with absolutely meta perks and addons. And should you get them, your within the mmr bracket where you should have a higher chance of a 4 escape than a loss if your doing all of this. The community also has a hard time acknowledging this.
TLDR: it seems your response is removing all agency from the survivors, misrepresenting the stats and then whilst acknowledging the average survivors aren't comp squads (in which you don't blame them for losing) you decide that a killer not being a top tier 1% killer it is on them and just a skill issue. At this point I don't know if your just trolling, or this is the biggest rose-tinted speech I've seen in a while.
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@BloodBehemoth said:
Jason can throw junk at people, pinning them to walls, go invisible, move super fast while invisible, appear superfast nearby, and he can see survivors doing anything except crouching. He even gets a footprint tracking that gets around Elusive. ELUSIVE DOES NOT WORK ON JASON. Are you honestly telling me Jason is weaker than Legion and therefore needs that? Not asking for Jason nerfs, btw.
No, I don't care that you hate Legion. I COULD be playing something worse, like Aura Nurse, or any Blight/Ghoul.
I agree Legion needs a buff, I don't believe this is it. Not because I think it would make him op, far from it, I believe its a QOL change that would be used to deny future buffs.
My suggested buff would be make it so the stabs add up to a loss of a healthstate if you don't fully heal. Most good survivors don't waste time healing fully because you're just going to get deep wounded anyway for free. My suggestion would be that after 3/4 hits you go down fully due to being irreparably stabbed and have bled out, forcing survivors to fully heal after 1/2 or risk getting double hit and going down.
A big buff, but wouldnt make him op, and would help him benefit a bit more from the hit and run playstyle whilst allowing him to apply pressure and not have it removed in 10s so he can go after another survivor.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
Dead By Daylight is Surprisingly Well Balanced. And that is the hard truth 😊. Breathe in, breathe out. I know this can be a hard cope for certain killer mains.👍️
In this post we will be exploring in details 🔍, and with numbers, to prove how well the Devs have done their job in regards to tackling DBD's unique asymmetrical balancing changes and how well they have managed to balance the game ⚖️, in contrary to popular beliefs.
Let's dive right in! This is going to be a long, and detailed post~https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GNU3I5FLLTD7/image.png
UNIQUE CHALLENGES:
Let's first start with acknowledging the unique balancing challenges that come with a asymmetrical game like DBD.
For DBD in particular, there is an unequal learning curve. Meaning that for beginner survivors vs beginner killers, it is a lot easier for beginner killers to follow a beginner survivor and down them than it is for a beginner survivor to navigate a randomly generated map backwards. This unique learning curve makes it so that, even if DBD at its theoretical highest level of play would be balanced, all games with lesser skill would be biased towards the killerhttps://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JY3BTC8TWG9C/image.png
RED: Survivor learning curve & strength
BLUE: Killer learning curve & strength
This unique challenge for DBD makes it impossible to balance DBD at its highest level, without completely gutting lower level players, which will then all experience matches highly biased towards killer, and with worse match results vs killers with equal game-time and relative skill.
Similarly, certain killers have their own style of learning curves too. And this ultimately dictates whether they can exist as a healthy killer in the game or not; strong killers with high learning curves like Nurse or Singularity are healthy, because beginner killers aren't able to utilize their full power against beginner level survivors, creating a more equal learning curve for both sides. However, for killers like Ghoul, you will see a massive disparity as a lot of the power of Ghoul is easily accessible to beginner players, where as the beginner survivors won't have much to fight back against that with. This means that to have a balanced experience for all players across ELO, beHaviour can truly only fully balance killers with high learning curves, as otherwise, certain killers due to their intrinsic design will absolutely dominate all lower brackets of gameplay, even if they would be theoretically well balanced at their highest level of play.
Another unique challenge is that Voice Communications can heavily strengthen a team beyond any level that is normally possible through just the means of the game alone. This makes it so that Voice Comms player have access to a significantly more amount of information, or shall I call it, free perks, than any normal team would normally have access to. What would require normal players plenty of perk slots would be attained for free by Voice Comm players.
And another unique challenge is that survivors rely in heavily punishable team-play. This means that survivors have to rely on others. Just 1 weak link can destroy the entire team. This means that for survivors to play at their higher levels, there need to be a lot more conditions to be set right than just a 1 man team (killer) who fully controls their own side of the match results.
So how were these unique challenges addressed and largely solved by the Devs?
THE BALANCE STRATEGY:
The Devs have resulted to multiple balancing strategies to target these unique issues:
Strategy 1: Make survivors stronger than the killers. It seems like a simple solution right? As we follow the curve above, this leads to a more generally equal match outcome across different skill levels, with beginner games favouring killers and high level games favouring survivors relatively. But wait, doesn't this prove that the game then is, in fact, unbalanced?
Not as much as others would have you believe…
Let's look at the stats: Comp DBD players hosted a rules free tournament, meaning, survivors can pick any perks they want, including duplicates, and pick any item as well as add-ons, including 4 Brand New Parts. And needless to say, they did. The tournament was mainly played with higher tier killers, both S tier and A tier, among which killers like Krasue, Ghoul, Dracula, Spirit, Hillbilly, Singularity, Vecna 2, etc.
And what were the match results?
21 Losses (0-1k)
13 Wins (3-4k)
15 Draws (2k)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39gl0ZjHxgo
So what does that mean for killers? That means that if you are playing against quite literally the Best Teams in the entire world, who are all running 4 BNP's, Shoulder the burdens, etc and other abusing builds, YOU, as any higher level killer, ARE MORE LIKELY TO DRAW OR WIN against the best teams in the entire world, than you are to lose, should you be playing at the best level as well.
Now, to really realize how big that is, you need to realize how extreme the circumstances these killers were all playing under were. Because these are by no stretch of the imagination your ordinary games. These were fully stacked 4 BNP, shoulder the burden / full slippery meat maximum gen rush games with fully sweaty and trained voice communications that DBD doesn't even natively provide.
Yet even if you play under these extraordinarily rare circumstances, you are more likely to draw or win than you are to lose. And that is definitely not how this community has been selling it.
Now in the real world, the chance that you are playing against a fully premade team is already way lower. The chance of them all running BNP is already way lower. The chance of them using fully sweaty voice comms with trained call-out locations for every part of the map is already way lower. And the chance of them being highly organized and trained with thousands of hours training together and being in sync with their team play is already way lower. Yet with a quite wide roster of killers, while having to overcome little of such challenges of your own as you are always your complete 1 man team and are always under your own best conditions, you will more likely draw or win than lose, even against the world's best.
So what does that mean? Well, here is the hard truth; You're not as good as killer at you think. And I don't even mean that in the terms of getting a 1k, 2k, or any particular match result. Your personal results are inferior to other players on those same killers.
Which brings us to the following balancing strategy:
Strategy 2: Make sure the maximum MMR bracket is quite forgiving. Sitting around the top 18% of players.
For anyone who has played a lot of competitive games before, you'll quickly know that the top 18% isn't quite the best group of players in the world. Those margins typically sit around the top 2.5% of players, or for highest tiers, top 0.4%-0.1%https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TQ87LLAS9O1U/image.png
Being in the top 18% is kind of the equivalent to being somewhere in Emerald in League of Legends.
Now, what does this accomplish? Well, it quite accomplishes the following: This MMR is forgiving enough, so that weaker killers, like Trapper, can go on massive Winstreaks of 50+ 3-4ks, even perkless and add-on-less, if they are being played at their highest levels. That means that, even if they cannot buff a certain killer without destroying their balance distribution through all MMR's due to how their power access as affected by their learning curve, you, as a top MMR bracket player, will still be able to have a completely DOMINATING experience as killer in NEARLY all of your matches if you are playing the killer right. And if that is not your experience, it's sadly not the game that is the issue;
You are just not as good as killer as you thought you were. And other killers are outcompeting you in their match results by a long shot. It's not the killer that is the problem; It's you.
ON ANOTHER NOTE:
Now, considering that you can select a killer, just like any character in any competitive game, you can also select a weaker character. But you have nothing but yourself to blame for selecting a weaker character deliberately, as nobody is forcing you to either play with weaker killers, weaker perks, as neither are survivors being forced. However, for those killers who wishes lower tier killers to be buffed:
It is important to recognize that many killers cannot easily be buffed, specifically due to how their power level vs learning curve scales with each other. Should killers have to be strong, they need to be designed in such a way that makes that power not easily available, so that through MMRs they can exist as a balanced and healthy killers. And your suggestions for buffs for them should also follow that same philosophy; Buff weaker killers in ways that don't give beginner killers access to it. As that is the only way such a killer can exist in the game in a healthy manner. Otherwise they simply need to suffer the fate of being weaker. Not to the detriment of their general match results in this forgiving MMR, but for top level competitive integrity.
NO TRUE MASTER:
One thing that a lot of people also leave out when it comes to killers and survivors is, they also are very unique in their learning curves. Survivor mains of course, ALWAYS play survivor. They might have 10.000 hours playing survivor alone. One of the interesting things that happens is that, players with 10.000 survivor hours might play against a killer with 10.000 killer hours, but the killer may only have 300 hours in Singularity specifically, and perform significantly worse than had they had 10.000 hours in singularity to match the survivor's experience.
This is a part very few people talk about, but killers on their specific killers very often have inferior experience relative to the survivors have at their role. This also means that killers have not learned to max out their strength to the same degree survivors have.
To this day, we don't have a true master of something like Ricochet Trickster. Not even the best Trickster players in the world, like Wacek have learned to max out the potential of these killers. Obviously, for fun, killers vary their killer roster. But imagine DBD in which the only game was Trickster and everyone was trying to master Ricochet Trickster. The level at which that killer would be played at would be through the roof, and optimized beyond anything we see today.
Therefore, in a truly balanced game, it shouldn't be too weird that people with 300 hours (the singularity example) are losing against optimized players with 10.000 of hours at their specific role. DBD has a serious killer main optimization issue, even at the competitive level, and we haven't seen optimized Killer Gameplay nearly as much as Optimized survivor gameplay. With few people trying, Like One Pump Willie. But nowhere near at the level had DBD been a game with exclusively 1 killer, to match the hours of the survivors.
END NOTE:
With all of these subjects covered, I hope that you have an understanding now, at not only the unique balancing challenges DBD faces, but also, how quite well they were addressed by beHaviour, contrary to popular belief, to provide a good match experience for both sides, even at the highest MMR level.
The popular belief that killer is just underpowered for a large part comes from peoples delusion of not recognizing they are simply not as good as killer as they imagined themselves to be.
Sadly for these people, being outcompeted in match results by other killers playing the same killer with even weaker perks/add-ons will not sway them into believing they themselves are in fact the problem. And these people will go on and regurgitate the same old faulty beliefs.
But for those with a healthy ego:
If you are playing an A-S tier killer versing the most ferocious teams in the world who are going all out, and you are losing more than you are winning+drawing; YOU ARE THE PROBLEM
If you are playing killer at top MMR and you aren't nearly exclusively winning all your matches; YOU ARE THE PROBLEM
If you are an addonless perkless trapper at top MMR and you aren't nearly exclusively winning all your matches; YOUR ARE THE PROBLEM
If you are playing addonless perkless trapper against a full competitive team with abusable builds; well, in that case, you will lose that match. I guess that happens when you deliberately select weaker characters. But next to winning the next 20+!
I hope this post helped you gain more insight into DBD balancing and that you hopefully learned something about the real balance of DBD, which as it stands, is actually pretty neat!
So get your decently wide a-s tier killer roster and enjoy drawing and winning against the top tier teams in the world! And if that's not you? Time to start improving as a player ❤️21 Losses (0-1k)
13 Wins (3-4k)
15 Draws (2k)So what does that mean for killers? That means that if you are playing against quite literally the Best Teams in the entire world, who are all running 4 BNP's, Shoulder the burdens, etc and other abusing builds, YOU, as any higher level killer, ARE MORE LIKELY TO DRAW OR WIN against the best teams in the entire world, than you are to lose, should you be playing at the best level as well.
I could also refraim that as "You are more likely to lose or draw than you are to win". Or even better, since there was 21 losses (-1) 13 wins (+1) and 15 draws (0) you ended up with a score of -8. Now I don't know the rules surrounding this tournament ect, I dont follow tournaments that well, but If it is true that they were close to double the amount of losses to wins, does that not show the power difference AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.
Yet even if you play under these extraordinarily rare circumstances, you are more likely to draw or win than you are to lose. And that is definitely not how this community has been selling it.
See previous reframing, I understand you want to minimize these stats, but if your going to bring fourth stats at least apply them neutrally.
Now in the real world, the chance that you are playing against a fully premade team is already way lower. The chance of them all running BNP is already way lower. The chance of them using fully sweaty voice comms with trained call-out locations for every part of the map is already way lower.
And the chance of them being a high tier killer with a sweaty build and 4000+ hours in the game are infinitely less. I've seen people shitpost about one of my friends who had less than 500 hours in the game, If your going to acknowledge in your post that killers aren't facing the best survivors (which i agree heavily) you also have to acknowledge the average killer is nowhere near as good as them.
So what does that mean? Well, here is the hard truth; You're not as good as killer at you think. And I don't even mean that in the terms of getting a 1k, 2k, or any particular match result. Your personal results are inferior to other players on those same killers.
I'll agree that a lot of killers believe they are insane and still getting duped by your average soloqueue survivors, but ill also say survivors often believe they are in the top 1% going against the best nurses/blights/jason's and have no way to play against them. This inflation occurs on both sides. And yeah, people inflate their skill level to seem like they're an authority. See how I've gone through this entire argument without invoking my hours in the game ect, people as a whole on this forum seem to be unable to do this.
I will also say, however, that being good as killer takes a lot more than being good as survivor, which you acknowledged the skill floors of both roles are hugely different. On top of this unless you have someone who can coach you its difficult to teach newer killers decision making (a key part of being a good killer). A lot of survivor loops/maps/ techs can be taught and doesn't leave a lot of difference, making their skill floor a bit lower. so overall yes I agree with this point, just some revisions.
Being in the top 18% is kind of the equivalent to being somewhere in Emerald in League of Legends.
Now, what does this accomplish? Well, it quite accomplishes the following: This MMR is forgiving enough, so that weaker killers, like Trapper, can go on massive Winstreaks of 50+ 3-4ks, even perkless and add-on-less, if they are being played at their highest levels. That means that, even if they cannot buff a certain killer without destroying their balance distribution through all MMR's due to how their power access as affected by their learning curve, you, as a top MMR bracket player, will still be able to have a completely DOMINATING experience as killer in NEARLY all of your matches if you are playing the killer right. And if that is not your experience, it's sadly not the game that is the issue;
This is where you truly lose me. This would make soloqueue unbearable for the better survivors (mostly streamers) because , as you mentioned league, the difference between top 18% and top 1-4% of survivors is huge. Making the soloqueue divide which is already insane at high mmr even worse. Which will alternatively lead to the other issue you've skirted over when talking about balancing. The dreaded SWF.
Now, I'm not gonna even argue that the average swf is insane comms ect. I play in a casual 3-4 man swf constantly, but even playing casually it gives a decent advantage. Being able to comm saves/ whos in chase/ who should take chase makes a massive difference. And being able to help my more employed friends on when to focus totems/gens/saves ect makes a huge difference in their fun in the game. And thats a casual swf. I cannot imagine 4 insane survivors all playing together to comm every pallet drop ect. And this will push top end survivors to swf with people they enjoyed playing with.
Now, considering that you can select a killer, just like any character in any competitive game, you can also select a weaker character. But you have nothing but yourself to blame for selecting a weaker character deliberately, as nobody is forcing you to either play with weaker killers, weaker perks, as neither are survivors being forced. However, for those killers who wishes lower tier killers to be buffed:
I agree and disagree with this statement. Yes, choosing a weaker killer shouldn't then be a justification to complain about the survivors you were facing. They owe you nothing, and vice versa. However, survivors also don't enjoy playing against the same killer game in and out, which is what your advocating for here. I think most killers should be buffed/nerfed/removed (nurse) to dracula/vecna level and see where we go from there with nerfs/buffs to balance playstate. Yes my examples are decently strong killers, but also most would prefer some variety and then balance around killers being that strong.
It is important to recognize that many killers cannot easily be buffed, specifically due to how their power level vs learning curve scales with each other. Should killers have to be strong, they need to be designed in such a way that makes that power not easily available, so that through MMRs they can exist as a balanced and healthy killers.
Another grey statement. I would prefer a multitude of killers (difficult or not) being strong. However, that does not mean their skill floor needs to be massively raised, I'd be fine with their skill ceiling being raised. Trapper should have some techs that allow him to pull some wacky stuff mid loop to make him viable. Myers moonwalk dash stab would be incredible and a pain in the ass to code but stuff like this would be my suggestion for buffs. basekit buffs for the weakest of killers, but more techs/interactions for C+ killers. Then nerf the S tiers.
Edit: you went on to say that later in the statement, seems we agree here somewhat.
Therefore, in a truly balanced game, it shouldn't be too weird that people with 300 hours (the singularity example) are losing against optimized players with 10.000 of hours at their specific role. DBD has a serious killer main optimization issue, even at the competitive level, and we haven't seen optimized Killer Gameplay nearly as much as Optimized survivor gameplay. With few people trying, Like One Pump Willie. But nowhere near at the level had DBD been a game with exclusively 1 killer, to match the hours of the survivors.
I agree, but a lot of skills can be passed on to different killers. If I'm first timing singularity (a weird example you chose) but mained ghoul/ xeno before there are skills that can be passed on. I think singularity is the worst example for this, but like nemisis/xenomorph, myers/ghostface ect ect, skills aren't killer specific for the most part. And yes, whilst they might struggle they shouldn't be completely outclassed if they have 10k hours in killer, because their general knowledge/decision making and mindgames will be the same. They should still stand a chance, they are more likely to lose sure, but they shouldnt be completely outclassed. Even in this extreme example.
The popular belief that killer is just underpowered for a large part comes from peoples delusion of not recognizing they are simply not as good as killer as they imagined themselves to be.
Sadly for these people, being outcompeted in match results by other killers playing the same killer with even weaker perks/add-ons will not sway them into believing they themselves are in fact the problem. And these people will go on and regurgitate the same old faulty beliefs.I agree most killers aren't as good as they think they are. I disagree that killer is op the better you get at the game. I very much believe the stats are inflated due to soloqueue and bad mmr, rather than killer being this op echelon that some believe it is. But yes, also, the killer can always improve. Lets not take away agency from the player, when you lose in DBD 90% of the time there is things you could do better (unless they hacked), and should strive to better yourself. This is even true for soloqueue.
If you are playing an A-S tier killer versing the most ferocious teams in the world who are going all out, and you are losing more than you are winning+drawing; YOU ARE THE PROBLEM
If you are playing killer at top MMR and you aren't nearly exclusively winning all your matches; YOU ARE THE PROBLEM
If you are an addonless perkless trapper at top MMR and you aren't nearly exclusively winning all your matches; YOUR ARE THE PROBLEM
If you are playing addonless perkless trapper against a full competitive team with abusable builds; well, in that case, you will lose that match. I guess that happens when you deliberately select weaker characters. But next to winning the next 20+!- Disagree as said before you've either intentionally looking at those stats faultily, or are framing them to make your argument for you.
- Also disagree with this. Top tier killers (im going to talk about otz/hens/jrm/scott jund/ alf) can lose quite often against good survivors, especially when not playing A+ tier killers. It's quite often in the survivors ball court how often they win/lose imo, but killers can certainly better themselves, as i doubt anyone reading this is at their skill level, and im certainly not anywhere close.
- Yes and no, again players want to be able to play all killers to have fun, and so them choosing a weaker killer whilst suboptimal should not be used as a reason why its their fault they lost, people are allowed to play whatever killer/build they want and still stand a chance. If the winrate of perkless trapper is sub 15% id say trapper probably has an issue if hes that perk dependant.
- Lmao, and no perkless trapper shouldnt win but I know thats you being hyperbolic for the people in the back who can't read social queues.
With all of these subjects covered, I hope that you have an understanding now, at not only the unique balancing challenges DBD faces, but also, how quite well they were addressed by beHaviour, contrary to popular belief, to provide a good match experience for both sides, even at the highest MMR level.
I hope this post helped you gain more insight into DBD balancing and that you hopefully learned something about the real balance of DBD, which as it stands, is actually pretty neat!
So get your decently wide a-s tier killer roster and enjoy drawing and winning against the top tier teams in the world! And if that's not you? Time to start improving as a player ❤️I agree BHVR are better at balance then people give them credit. My major issues are because OP killer stuff is infinitely more important to nerf than OP survivor stuff (because the killer role has to remove people from the game, so OP stuff from them takes priority, which makes sense but rubs me the wrong way).
And also, the S-tier killer roster is 3/4 killers out of 40ish, and yeah, as said you've taken that stat the worst way possible, maybe should reframe the way you look at it for a second.
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@Arcturus said:
@Yamalive yeah i mean i think the people who still say that (especially the killers in my end game chats whether they win or lose) are just riding that first day impression of the game, whereas in reality 90% of killers have shifted to running killers and builds that counter the event to some extent, and with poison the balance of the event has flipped the other way around
I mean i disagree with the statement "because killers are running X killer with X build the balance of the event has been flipped" but the sentiment is true. I play 50/50 killer survivor (queue up killer then queue as you wait survivor for a game) and my games as survivor have been what most people have seen, legion/jason/plague/bubba, and it has made it certainly more diffcult, definitely still favouring survivors.
When Im playing as killer, as others have mentioned with their pinhead comments ect, I play huntress/deathslinger/jason (I don't run hex build on principle, its not needed) and a bit of ghostface. I struggle a lot more with ghostface/huntress/deathslinger than I do with Jason, its not even close. I've yet to try bubba/hillbilly but I'm assuming id find them easier than the ones I main normally anyway. Im usually having to sweat somewhat as killer, and yes I've tunneled my fair share of times, because if I don't pressure can get removed at a press of a button by the banquet. This event is incredibly survivor sided, as shown by the queue difference only being 1.25x on survivors rather than the usual 2x.
I don't think killers are solely to blame for the horrendous mess this event has came up with (unless you run hex jason, in which case disregard this comment, you are a problem) because the huge divide between killers that can pressure constantly, and killers who can't. The difference between Jason/Bubba/legion/hillbilly and ofc nurse vs Ghostface, plague, Myers, deathslinger and the majority of the killer cast is so wide that it feels horrible playing anything other than the Stronger killers if your metric for having fun is winning (I like winning, but I also like a challenge personally so for me I'd prefer a satisfying loss than a sweep for example)
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097805#Comment_4097805
The deputy badge nerf was essentially nothing. It was just a note people could point at and say "look, a nerf happened" that doesnt actually effect gameplay. They could reduce the range to 0 and it wouldn't matter since the whole point was you can regress gens while in OE, not that the range was somehow helpful. I promise you no one that used it before saw the changes and switched off because of it.
I agree, but if they take the same sort of philosophy for the nerfs in the future they'd be good. Minor nerfs at the stronger parts of his kit until he feels better to play against for survivors.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097786#Comment_4097786
to be fair, only had the one here with em
the issue is this isn't what happens with killers.
The thing is this IS a possibility that can happen no? Could they do this instead of ONLY the highest or average? Thats my point of contention.
That said i think they kinda do, they're just bad at it. The huntress movement (im assuming your talking about the movement speed when holding a hatchet yes?) allowed her to simply zone survivors instead of actually try to make a shot without any major drawback.
I've been here since Doc came out, i've personally seen and experienced the BS of both sides. Killers are generally the target of nerfs because most the BS survivors could use are gone (Working on a gen with DS and Unbreakable, infinites, instant heal medkits, etc) or are minor/have a decent cost (having 5 second heals after an unhook [and before you whine about this: It costs at minimum 1 perk slot between 2 different survivors and a hookstate with a relatively safe unhook), and many killer nerfs aren't even that bad.
"If the survivors don't do the play you think is best atm, does that mean they're less skilled?"- of course not, people make mistakes ect or are just chilling after a long day at work.
Here is what Reinami said which prompted the question:
My point is, you are saying that Jason shouldn't require people to be coordinated (in a team game btw) because most people aren't. Thus you are advocating for balancing around lower skill and average level players.
Since not everyone can be coordinated nor perfect, but they arent lower skilled players, are we actually balancing around the lower skilled by reducing the level of coordination needed against Jason? Or is it something else?
Personally, idc as i think jason is almost perfectly fine, but its something nagging at me. Also why are you answering for Reinami?
"most the BS survivors could use are gone"- I'd argue a lot of the complaints about certain killer perks arent BS killer perks, theyre just strong. For example:
The dark arrogance nerf in patch 9.2.0.
Batteries included and machine learning nerfs in 9.0.0
weave attunement nerf 8.4.0.
But these are strong, not insane/BS . The new evasion perk on survivors came out and I doubt it'll be touched at all for months, but because totems are strong rn not only will thrill get hit but ruin probably will too. DS and dead hard took years to nerf, killers often get fixed within months, as will be proven when we see a nerf to thrill before next patch (it needs it because hex build, but id argue a lot of the survivors perks needed it and took too long). I'm more than happy to balance both casually, but often people ask for this when asking for nerfs targetting killer, and that kinda rubs me the wrong way.
Also not answering for reinami, just putting in my 2 cents on a convo on a public forum. They could go in an entirely seperate direction.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097790#Comment_4097790
I feel like alot of the nerfs ppl ask for is just so they can maybe see the killer less often. Right after the deputy badge nerf I had someone like "SEE!!! They nerfed it", meanwhile im just scratching my head thinking it basically changed nothing. The "bug" basically had no real impact since you could only do it 1 time per use of OE, but it seemed super impactful when a YouTube edits like 80 seconds of footage to show a 99% gen get regressed to 50%.
I feel like its a healthy bit of both. He is strong, he is a lot lower of a skill floor then other killers of his power level, and he currently doesn't feel very punishing in power. I don't blame Survivors wanting nerfs to him. I feel like some minor nerfs would massively help his image and peoples fun vs him in the game.
The deputy badge nerf was a step in the right direction, because it was a minor adjustment on the things that are strong on him to make him feel less oppressive.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097785#Comment_4097785
I feel like alot of his jungle gym/pallet loop gameplay is similar to nemesis or xeno except if THEY miss, they can try again. Some of the people on here saying Jason ONLY has to wait 12 seconds after a miss to OE over to a reload spot to try again is kinda nuts for that. This is also ignoring that he has the same exact need to reload if he hits. You arnt just making misses more punishing but making HITS more punishing too if you do things like reduce reload spots.
Oh absolutely, and lets be clear id be fine with that. Currently they usually have 2 reloads readily available per chase without OE, if you miss 2/3 shots you should be punished, because the rest of his kit isn't very punishing and allows for snowball esq effects.
Theres 1 of 2 worlds in which i see their nerfs:
A) make one part of his kit useless but buff the other part, so hes forced to take perks to supplement it and hope this doesn't kill his playability (this would remove the hex build issue aswell)
B) Make minor targetted nerfs that punish him missing ect whilst not making him feel clunky, and with a minor power tone down he hopefully is seen as more fun to play against.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of the complaining is because solo-queue is a pain, and solo queue survivors make jason unbearable because theyre unwilling to take chase. But there is some nerfs to be had, my suggestions are:
Reduce scrap heap spawns, Decrease haste out of power to 10s, slight increase in Power cd by like 5-9s.
These would mean that correct decision making, and outplaying him feel rewarding, whilst also not making him clunky and removing too much power from his kit
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@Wibwob said:
Title. I asked the same thing over a year ago just before Ghoul was added - back then, killers people wanted to face more were pretty diverse with a few names coming up more than others (Bubba, Demo, Vecna 1, Pyramid Head).
Blight was by far the one killer people had grown the most tired of seeing.
I'm curious if perceptions have changed since then with the various balances and new entries
The old post/responses if for some reason you're curious: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/438216The killer I wish to see less of is Legion tbh, with his new anti-pallet build is pretty ruthless. Don't hate it, its just very formulaec. Outside of that It probably is Jason, just due to their proclivity to take the hex build.
More of: deathslinger and hillbilly. Deathslinger because I enjoy the mindgames/threat of his gun, and the chase music slaps. Hillbilly because hes strong af, and I enjoy the challenge every time I see them whilst every game against them feels different.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097597#Comment_4097597
So ignoring the facts of the uncertainty of anyone having any of those titles, the sheer unrealism of having a subjectively "balanced" map (each killer would have something different for "balanced") with no RNG, which is an inherent part of the game, and all those matches have the exact same spawns and either not including thinks like add ons and perks or free for all for them, id say: Wraith, Billy, Nurse, Myers, possibly hag (subjective "balanced" map remember), Huntress, Freddy, Clown, Spirit, Plague, Demo, Oni,Pyramid, Bleet, Twins, Trickster, Neme, Pinface, Artist, Dredge, Wesker, Xeno, Unknown, Vecna, Drac, Houndmaster, the Ghouls, Springtrap, Krasue, Henry, Jason. All them have a good chance to win about half their matches.
Now that I answered you, care to answer me?
Whats stopping the devs from looking at both the highest and lowest and making tweeks using that data?
If the survivors don't do the play you think is best atm, does that mean they're less skilled?
Not going to go through the last few comments you've had with the guy, they seem pretty hectic, just gonna comment on this bit I just saw.
"Whats stopping the devs from looking at both the highest and lowest and making tweeks using that data?"- the issue is this isn't what happens with killers. Huntress movement speed nerf is something that was neccessary for the better huntresses but your average huntress doesn't need this nerf. Same with the blight Hug tech, the good/top tier blights were horrendous to go against, sure, but the average blight was a goofy little goober dashing around the place trying trickshots or just gobbling up pallets whilst being unable to chain stuff. There is a bunch of killers that are made fundamentally weaker/clunkier to stop the best of those killers being oppressive. Old hillbilly is another example. I'd be fine with balancing for both ends, if it happened on both sides. The oppressive stuff is all thats really nerfed on survivor side (olds ds, old dh, old COH) whilst these nerfs that make some of even the weaker killers (huntress) feel clunkier/weaker.
I've played since 2018, old school killer was lethal (old ruin/pgtw) and needed these nerfs. However, more recently I've been leaning towards killers being targeted with their nerfs. Things that have been meta and strong for a long time on survivor haven't been touched (Lithe/adrenaline for example) whilst a lot of killer-wide "meta" builds get targetted pretty quickly.
"If the survivors don't do the play you think is best atm, does that mean they're less skilled?"- of course not, people make mistakes ect or are just chilling after a long day at work.
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097634#Comment_4097634
If he is not fun to play against then 80% of the players in a match are not enjoying it. Personally I have only had one or two fun games against Jason, mainly because they were playing more chill and not the most cheese 4k guarantee build.
There also seems to be a kind of mismatch between when Jason appears for survivors, and when the killer player "arrives" with the knife swing animation. To the survivor he appears almost instantly as has a very fast movement speed when vaulting a window on arrival, for example.
I've played against jason maybe 50 times now, Ive enjoyed around half of them (and yes majority of the ones I didn't enjoy were against the hex jason build). I don't hate playing against jason, It definitely is worse than the majority of killers, but IMO could be a lot worse, I feel like dodging is rewarding, and jason struggles against jungle gyms (if you can find one/get to one and use the tls you can just make his life a living hell).
And yeah I can also understand why people don't enjoy him, he doesnt get punished anywhere near as hard as he could given the other parts of his kit, so would like him missing his ranged attack/ a survivor correctly predicting where he appears to mean more. But I also don't want him gutted, like some have asked for, because he is enjoyable to play as, and with a few minor tweaks would be enjoyable to play against.
But yeah, IDK whats going on with those animation bugs, maybe they should give him a slower arrival, thats another smaller nerf that could be added to my list id be fine with.
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Personally, I think its not too bad, but he could Certainly use some targeted nerfs. The issue is I've also seen a lot of people asking for him to be gutted. Yes hes fun (not to play against), but to the majority the stronger killers are fun (blight, ghoul and Jason are all seen as incredibly fun due to their high mobility and chase powers, allowing them to snowball).
The main takeaway is we shouldn't want them gutted, targetted nerfs to make them more punishing/rewarding for dodging should be where we aim the nerfs at rather than trying to make them feel less fun or gutting them.
How that would be done is to be tested, tbh id rather an overnerf then buffs to balance him to put him in a decent spot. I just don't want an emergency nerf then hes left untouched for months.
As in my other comments, the nerfs I've suggested are reduced haste duration to 10s, decreased scrap piles spawning and increased power cd. This would leave him in a much better spot, where he can't spam haste, and gets punished for missing his ranged attacks.
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@HexSlugged said:
Hopefully this question makes sense, playing killer is a very stress and pressure heavy role for many including me.
While generally speaking i am not competitive and dont typically care if i win or lose in games, while this is also true when i play survivor, killer is just different.
It is incredibly stressful to me. I think a good reason is that I am by myself and the only support i have is myself and i have 4 people who all view me as the enemy and are working together to stop me and i have tools at my disposal and so do they.
I feel constant pressure on me and if i feel i am starting to fall behind in the game or just facing people better than me even though it is a game I as a person feel a sense of failure and that brings me stress. or insecurities about being insulted or people thinking i suck(even if randos online that ill never knows opinion shouldnt matter it FEELS like it should to me)
This causes alot of games to feel unfun. Not in the sense that i am genuinly having a bad time playing the game except for the matches i do get fully frustrated but that in the enjoyment i am having is coming from the satisfaction of overcoming a challenge and winning but not having a real sensation of "fun" when playing.
Im unsure if that makes sense so to clarify a bit, lets say i am in a match and im against a group of loop gods soim just not ending chases quick and when i do end them there is a flash save and im justy achieving nothing all game. then i get a down in end game and i manage to secure a 2 or 3k at the end.
I did not have FUN doing that but it was satisfying and it did feel nice because i overcame a difficult situation but its not the same as just having a fun time to me.
i decided to start trying huntress a couple days ago. i had used her a few times 5 plus years ago but only a few times and i was bad at hatchets. I wanted to practice with her and i also love love love the baba yaga skin so honestly thats really why i started using huntress now.
I decided that my only goal was to practice throwing hatchets. thats it. not to win the game or kill anyone and no using the m1 at all. just land hatchets. and of course all i did was whiff at first but because im potato handed but when the gens were popping and a chase went forever it was fine because idc if the gens get done, i just need to manage to hit a hatchet after missing the last 15.
Doing this and pulling back from the mindset of winning and focusing on a different aspect of the game led me personally to having genuine fun. an experience i dont really recall having for ages in dbd. I like playing dbd but these were games where i was laughing to myself and having fun experiences with the players especially when they realised i just wanted to practice a loop with them, or throwing and a bunch of survivors have played along and we all had a good time. Meanwhile i am getting better and better at throwing hatchets and if i keep doing this i think ill eventually start being pretty dangerous with her. currently im able to win my matches if i really want to (partly because i think ive tanked my mmr into a playerbase of…..well at least they could figure out how to boot the game) but converting that into actually winning currently isnt very important to me with huntress.
That being said, im unsure how to generally have that mindset with other killers, especially ones that i play alot of and am good with. Like Twins, i am good with twins but ive never been able to generate the same kind of mindset as i have with huntress as i went into huntress expecting to lose because i had no skill with her yet.
So I guess my question is, I want to capture the fun ive found with huntress and experience that with other killers and overall care less about winning.
If there is any advice, what advice would you have on how to foster a better mindset that doesnt get trapped in the competetive quagmire that many of us players are stuck in?
The obvious answers are:
find your niche, enjoy said niche, and don't let anyone tell you how to have fun.
If you enjoy trickster, but it requires you to sweat/bring a sweaty build do it.
If you enjoy basement trapper do it.
If you enjoy ghost face but need 4 slowdowns to make him viable do it.
Do whatever it takes to have your fun, find your killer/build you like and run with it, Put on music and blast through having a blast, ignore end game chat and go next. This is how I have fun, its how I always have had fun (I've played since 2018). Huntress and deathslinger with doom music in the background just loud enough i can hear it but not loud enough I can't hear audio queues. I run whatever build i feel (usually 2 slowdown perks, 1 info perk and 1 killer dependant perk, e.g deathslinger: Corrupt, Pgtw, spies and either forced penance or bamboozle depending on how im feeling).
Don't focus on your kill metrics, focus on how much fun your having. If your fun is based around winning however, remember the better you are the better the survivors you face, and its a downwards spiral to only playing A+ killers to keep up.
Outside of that, happy hunting.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095461#Comment_4095461
"I can't use my miniscule cooldown infinite duration stealth mobility power unless im constantly handheld exactly where to go to immediately start another chase with a massive advantage. And i refuse to use by brain or perks to synergize with mobility powers the way you would with half of the current killer roster. Please dont let go of my hand BHVR. Survivors should just watch the grass moving and not do literally anything useful in order to counter me"
"I can't do anything unless the killer has his hands off the keyboard, a blindfold on and move half the speed of me, even then they might hit a ranged attack on me so i must get a new second chance perk every single chapter that makes me invincible for 60 seconds. I refuse to take accountability for my actions because how dare BHVR not make a game where I can win without trying. I refuse to use my brain and consider how to play against the killer who has a level of counterplay greater than what any other killer has. Please never stop making my role any easier BHVR for i might have to leave the game if I have to put in a modicum of effort. Killer's should just listen to gens pop and never put any pressure on me or I may die from the toll it would put on my heart
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095431#Comment_4095431
If you can't play a killer without all the information in the world constantly handed to you, and refuse to use perks to augment that weakness, its understandable why you're against balancing him.
"if you can't play a killer without all the information in the world"- see the insane pivot you just did. It went from " oh but you can use a perk to be able to use his power" to "you can't cope without permanent wall hacks". His power is useless without information, which you agreed, and then tried to say "oh but other killers have the same requirements" which they don't and now you've resorted to adhomnym attacks without actually having a decent conversation.
Im not against balancing, infact most the posts give 3 nerfs that should be done against him. The balances you have suggested would gut him and require him to have a perk just to use his power. So let me address you with the same respect you have shown me:
If you can't play against a killer without them being unable to use their power and have to gut every marginally strong killer without even attempting to learn their counterplay, its understandable why you're so hell bent on gutting him
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095406#Comment_4095406
So throw on BBQ, Tremors, or any of the plethora of aura perks and suddenly you have all the information you need.
Or just use your game sense to predict what gens survivors would be working on. You know, like most every other killer on the roster.
I can't think of a single killer that can't fundementally use their power without a perk. There isn't one. No amount of game sense changes the fact this would make is tp fundamentally useless, and now your shifting to "well you can run a perk which can allow you to get some value from your power". This is top tier rage baiting if I ever saw it
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095368#Comment_4095368
The ability to cross map at high mobility in complete stealth is not useless. Limiting the information or duration might force people to run something other than 4 slowdown perks or 4 hexes as he currently essentially gets several chase and tracking perks basekit.
"the ability to go cross map at high mobility in complete stealth is not useless"- the ability to go across the map blind, see nothing, and have to appear at pre-destined spots is basically useless on its own.
The 4 hexes build needs touching, outside of everything else. And he gets the info because without it again, his power becomes useless. Because hes then in a worse spirit phase.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095335#Comment_4095335
I dont want every advantage/aspect of his power nerfed. I just wanted to point out he gets a bajillion things handed to him every 12 seconds and its too much compared to other killers. I personally think the spear is fair, but exhaustion/turn back the clock add ons need to go, as well as haste when he already starts chase directly behind survivors with killer instinct and a ranged weapon. OE either needs limited duration or limits on the information it gives.
Also idk if its bugged but I've been getting jump scared even while crouched and sitting still.
the scream goes off no matter what I believe if your within 3m, but the rest shouldn't. Might be wrong on that, don't quote me.
I agree, I also don't want every aspect of his power nerfed, I was just pointing out that one of the nerfs you were asking for was a bit much, and would essentially make a part of his kit useless, which would mean other parts would need to be buffed to compensate at which point we get another ranged killer with an insane ranged attack and has some form of mobility (although itd be near useless if you couldn't see stuff)
And OE already gets limited information, you can crouch to remove any and all information it gives, and allows you to choose which survivor he goes after (which no other killer does btw). Doing either of these makes the power useless because either theres no downside to survivors just stopping everything and he loses power (making it useless) or he gets no info in his power (making it useless)
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@NotAnotherDoctor said:
I play on Xbox so anon mode isn't an option or I would turn it on 24/7.
Played a few games last night, and today I went into my playstation app to see what was on sale, only to find I had messages full of abuse from people who tracked my account
Why are some of you like this? It's disgusting and this is an absolute awful community.
Agreed, and sadly I think its because both sides don't feel heard and so vent through the game.
Survivors feel like tunneling/slugging/bleed to death ect ect are horrible to play against and don't see the devs doing enough in their eyes to punish these unfun playstyles.
Killers feel like the event/old ds/ bully squads/ swf are horrible to play against and don't see devs balance things around them in their eyes and so aren't doing enough to help them against these unfun playstyles.
And so both have devolved into this "ill play how i want playstyle because X games ago someone slugged/teabagged/flashlight clicked/ tunneled me so I'm going to play for my fun" and its ended up for those who only play one role making it an US vs Them problem, which has only furthered the divide.
Every nerf is seen by a majority on that role as a personal slight "given X is still going on why dont they focus on that" and it translates to hate/abuse. Its not ok, and nobody should be doing this. But they feel as if its their only way to vent against what they see as underhanded/toxic/sweaty/all of the above.
My advice, from what I can remember you can mute message notifications on xbox, and if this game is something your spending a considerable amount of time playing id just keep them off and give the people who matter an alternate way to communicate with you so you never look at those messages.
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@Jonkler340 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095231#Comment_4095231
If this killer isnt braindead then what is he? Where other killers get punished for playing bad, this killer has forgiving mechanics and a low skill floor. If you miss your shots on huntress you have to stop at a locker, but jason replenishes his ranged attack mid chase with no slowdown. Cant let the ADHD kids get discouraged by risk/reward gameplay. If you have trouble finding survivors, just stay in the OE form. He may have a high skill ceiling but he also has a pretty low skill floor and probably the most forgiving ranged killer in the game.
Huntress gets 7 hatchets basekit and her hatchets have a bigger hitbox than jason's, so is infinitely more forgiving with her ranged attack than jason.
"If you have trouble finding survivors, just stay in the OE form"- Yes, which means survivors can choose who takes chase and spread out hooks that way.
Yes he needs nerfs, but he definitely isn't the most forgiving ranged killer. I say this as someone who mains huntress and deathslinger, but has been using jason during the event. Survivors can much more easily dodge my spikes than huntress hatchets which you need to time your dodges much better than against jason.
The issue with Jason is him having all of the above, not just one part being super strong. Each individual part of his kit would make him C tier at best, remove his ranged attack hes a worse freddy, remove his phase shift hes a worse huntress. Its because each of these comes with so much you need to be careful with how you nerf one part or he just becomes useless.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095207#Comment_4095207
I don't agree sorry, he is the problem, his kit is overloaded (buffs and debuffs, information, ranged attack and mobility galore) and people need to stop being in denial over it.
I'm so bored of the community not being self-aware.
Also sorry if this is rude but a Consultant should not be getting win streaks for content, this just feels like he is manipulating balance so he can get views at this point.I agree HE needs some nerfs, but he himself needs a few targetted nerfs/ add on nerfs and he'll be fine. A lot of the complaints are around the hex build and that build in general is problematic on weaker killers, no matter Jason.
My suggested nerfs are:
Decrease scrap pile spawns, decrease haste duration and increase his powers cd would do the trick to make him strong but fair.
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@Rogue11 said:
He doesn't need 25 seconds of haste + killer instinct + bs exhaustion add on + turn back the clock add on + infinite mobility + infinite information + zero reload slowdown on top of starting every chase with a massive advantage and a potent ranged attack. Holy handholding BHVR
Agreed, but part of your statements wrong. Theres definitely nerfs to be had but:
"infinite mobility"- but can't do anything in said mobility unlike other killers and it is projected when he uses it to the whole team.
"Infinite information"- you mean he can see you when your doing an action, and you can deny it by stop doing an action, so you can choose who takes chase.
"zero reload slowdown"- he gets locked in an animation and can only reload at specific areas (theres much less scrap piles/hooks than lockers). A decrease to scrap piles spawns sure, but if you loop him he shouldn't both get punished by going away from the loop to reload and a slowdown, he has 1 hit and has to go out of his way to reload, he doesn't also deserve a slowdown.
The rest i agree with, they need to cut the time of haste and exhaustion, and hit some of the addon's, and a scrap pile nerf sure.
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@Wyndsor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095147#Comment_4095147
I mean people are doing this on even 'D-tier' killers so at this point its really hard to discuss killer balance.
I still maintain these changes for Jason:
-Remove 'potential' pallet spawn points being a thing, I have no idea why Xeno and Springtrap have limitations to their power but Jason can TP pretty much anywhere, it's dumb.
-Increase animation for reloading or reduce reload spots, him using his power 4+ times in a chase without losing any distance makes him too easy-Time limit on OE and remove the info denial delay, you should never scream whilst crouched or in a locker. Hell I'd say standing still should counter the power as well.
-Haste cut in half, exhaustion cut in half.
Maybe all of these would be overkill, but I'd at least like to see three of them.I agree with all these except the third. I believe reducing scrap piles, cutting the haste by 10/15s would be fine for him and exhaustion in half is fine.
The third point would be way too big a nerf. My suggestion would just be increase the power cd. If he doesn't get ANY info whilst in power it becomes useless, and would need a correction to other parts of his kit to him good (not broken, just good). We've seen killers with good mobility but 0 info be weak (legion, dredge, freddy) and this would make him a ranged killer with 1 shot, has to stop to reload and essentially a tp that is projected to the survivors.
But yeah your not doing too much overkill, your nerfs are touching the right things rather than just "remove x ability from jason"
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095139#Comment_4095139
Well thats what I mean, something like that only for extreme cases.
I tried to introduce 2 new players tonight and they got slugged and said they'd never play the game again, by a try hard blight. It's really really hard to explain to newer players why these things are how they are. Jason is really bad for it too.
There needs to be more of a forgiving experience in DBD for both sides, killer is punishing too for that matter, there is a lot they could learn from 2v8.
IDK it's just demotivating trying to share a game you love and people are just always highlighting how ######### the game is for casual players. We need stuff in place to help both sides, leave the comp strats for custom games, or a ranked mode.This!
I'd love to introduce new players to dbd, but most people I play it with have played it for a while casually, on and off. Introducing it to a new player is like introducing them to league, its not welcoming and theres a bunch they need to learn to even begin to have fun.
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@Nazzzak said:
Pretty sure some well known content creators are doing some sort of slugfest competition among themselves. I would assume viewers are copying their builds, and that's why there's an increase.
Yeah alf and hens are hosting slugfest, but killers like epidemy and lillith do a lot of slugging anyway and theyve became increasingly popular aswell
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094863#Comment_4094863
Honestly if they could make the distance more consistently long ranged and a time commitment, I wouldn't be so bothered by it. It's the extreme cases where the carts are next to the tables I think it's horrible.
Oh absolutely. If 1 survivor had to take a minute/ minute and a half to get this i wouldnt mind at all, But when theyre 5s away from the table, its a bit annoying when they can spam heals.
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@Cornil said:
Survivors have to waste time going back and forth in an area, hopefully not being looped in or the killer is being actively lead toward, four times in order to get the healing affect. Survivors can try to strategize and save it for when they need it most, but the issue is you never know if the killer will poison it and waste your time, or be in the area of that banquet table when you finally need to get the global heal. The only killers this affect truly hard counters is hit and run killers, or people running exclusively healing builds. That's about it. So, about a fifth of the roster at the very most. Dredge, Wraith, Legion, all have the potential to be pretty miserable. But the rest of the killer roster is unphased if you know how to play a little macro or map control. Bubba and The Lich are both monsters in this event, Bubba for sheer short-chase potential, and The Lich for his ability to shut down entire parts of the map and negate unbreakable pallets.
I actually find the invisibility the most problematic not as a killer even, but as a survivor. I get tunneled out before 2 gens are finished in over half of my games because my teammates just stuff their faces with food and get invisibility every time the killer is nearby. They get frustrated, go back to the hook, the teammate healing me does the same, runs off while invisible, and I get caught injured, already have a hook state, and no help from my teammates. I've started bringing nothing but second-chance and anti-tunnel perks to try and alleviate this but it only extends the amount of time when I'm tunneled out from 1 gen being finished to maybe 2 gens. Sometimes its none if my teammates waste their time trying to fill banquet tables while I'm already on hook or downed lol
They need to go back and fourth (aka, spend maybe 45s in most cases I've seen because theres always a trolley near one of the tables) and for it get to heal the whole team a health state, and get a huge buff like extra pallets/ speed/ teleports.
It affects most killers, because healing a health state is healing a health state and unless you can apply deep wound itll heal them all 1 healthstate. Its why legion/deathslinger are popular in the event, because it nullifies the healing.
Its not a "little macro or map control" its sb on no cooldown, healing a health state, portaling around or resetting pallets.
Invisibility is easy to track for most killers ive played against, its not that strong. If you are getting tunneled out before 2 gens 1 of 2 things are happening, either the survivors aren't touching gens at all, or theyre being overly altruistic. There is a thing called doing too much altruism, and if theyre getting you off hook instantly then theyre playing into the tunneling.
Your already running second chance perks and getting tunneled out before 2 gens, that sounds like the soloqueue special ngl. You do get some of those survivors who wont do anything (gens/banquet/ chase) and will opt to just hover. Sucks, but doesnt speak to why the powers arent incredibly strong. We wouldn't look to the worst examples of a killer to decide how to balance them, we'd look at what their potential is (hence why spirit/blight/nurse get nerfed, because they have the potential to do the same), we should do the same here, and look at what the potential of the event is when talking about balance, which is survivors playing somewhat efficiently and the killer having an incredibly hard time because of it.
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@Cornil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094852#Comment_4094852
I wouldn't blame them if they were losing the match. The problem is they do it from match start, when its not necessary, and continue to tunnel even when they're winning. 3 or 4 banquet tables filled is the most I've seen tbh, and like I said my teammates were rushing them as fast as they could to the point that doing gens would've been more efficient.
For context, my last 20 survivor games since the event started, I've escaped 7 times. That's a 35% escape rate. Total escape rate from the last 30 days, including those 20 matches alongside my matches before the event? 54%. I mean, am I just slowly going insane here or is that not a ridiculous drop in escape rate? Not to mention that my matches are sometimes as short as 5 minutes because I get first chase then singled out until I'm dead.
The issue is, as I have seen in some of my games, if i hadn't tunneled from the start Id have lost an extra gen or two which couldve cost me the game and made it a 4e, id rather tunnel, then tone it down after a couple of chases if they aren't doing anything insane, than wait and see and then get stomped.
It is a big drop in kill rate, my assumption would be because its the stronger killers playing the event because your average wraith/myers/clown wont cut it, so your going against the stronger killers who are still playing the event.
But i feel you, it is bad, but as i said I don't blame them from it because if they don't they can often get walked on. Now if they continue when no progress is being made, then thats them just pubstomping. still don't blame them, but its certainly less fun and sportsmanlike in those cases.
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@Cornil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094840#Comment_4094840
Just played a game against a Lich where they didn't tunnel, my teammates were good and got multiple saves, we managed to get 3 global heals and unbreakable pallets from the tables, but only finished a gen and a half before he was able to have half my team on death-hook and one person dead. Its simply not the guaranteed win for survivors that people have been hyping the event up to being. You need like, a super coordinated 4-man SWF with proper communication to actually make the event problematic. And surprisingly, I haven't seen that yet in the 20 killer games I've played.
I've escaped one trial as survivor in the past 10 matches and it was because it was a default-cosmetic Blight who stopped tunneling once the player he was tunneling DC'd, and then I managed to be the lone escapee since my teammates got caught and the bot is programmed to just leave the trial immediately
Sadly, 3 heals isnt a lot mate. As i said, I've played 15+ mins games where every chase I took i had to abandon because 2 of them focused 1 table when they took an injury and healed them every time i got damage off then popped on a nearby gen when they weren't injured. Those games probably had about 10+ global heals. They got 3 gens done, but would've done more had i not tunneled my ass off from the get-go. You don't need a super coordinated 4 man swf, you need a 3+ man swf who can talk to each other on discord, thats it. It's not a guaranteed win, your correct, but my escape rate is 43% in soloqueue only, I can't imagine if i was playing with my mates, that'd be hell. I'd say its heavily in the survivors favour as long as they use the banquets (which are pretty easy to use, but most soloqueue don't for some reason).
But yeah, I don't have an insane escape rate rn as survivor, probably about 43% (down from my original 60% from the first 10 games). And yeah theres a bunch of tunneling. As said I dont blame them.
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@Cornil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094836#Comment_4094836
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Y3NY5XU25YGR/image.png
I have and I never tunneled intentionally (invisibility can make it hard sometimes)
I've played just under 50 games of the event as a killer, 22 games as survivor. Out of the killer games I've played against now 18 games of survivors who knew how to stock the table, and did so frequently enough that getting kills was horrible. Im talking 15+ min games just because they knew how and when to heal using the tables. Those games i hard tunneled and im not gonna apologise for. The other games i could play a bit more chill, but im still only playing ranged killers (mostly huntress and jason, with a bit of springtrap) so for weaker and m1 killers this could be horrendous. You have the added benefit on bubba of instadowns so these heals arent as bad (not saying bubbas strong, but your not as badly affected by extra pallets/haste/ healing
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@Cornil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094834#Comment_4094834
sometimes survivors (like my teammates most games) leave the killer no choice by just going invisible and leaving the unhooked survivor to get tunneled, but its happening far more than just in those scenarios
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094833#Comment_4094833
I've never had a problem with tunneling in my games until now. I have never been the target of, or witnessed so much tunneling since May of last year where I watched every Ghoul player abuse his absolutely busted ability to just two-tap people who had been freshly unhooked. I have consistently been tunneled or someone on my team has been tunneled in probably 90% of my games. Going back to look at my DBD stat tracker I saw that almost every single match I played either I or someone else had below 15,000 score because the killer yeeted them out of the match before they could even think about touching a gen or healing a teammate
The survivor buffs are insane, to the point where if they do go against a team that knows to stock the tables, theyll suffer. Yes theyre going to tunnel, because if they don't and you spam tables theyre gonna have a hard time
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@Cornil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094829#Comment_4094829
As you typed that I started a third match, Ghoul, Lara Croft teammate tunneled out at 4 gens. I never had a problem with tunneling in the normal gamemode before the anniversary event began
It was for some, its become infinitely more-so because again the survivors buffs from food are bs, a guaranteed teamwide heal and then some other buffs (speed/haste, unbreakable pallets or portals).
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@Cornil said:
Title. Been tunneled out at game start in at least half of my matches as survivor. And ones I'm not tunneled out in, I always watch one of my teammates get tunneled out instead. Anyone else experiencing this? I thought it was just me but now I'm convinced its been enough of my matches that it has to be widespread. Killer players just given up on playing normally with the event modifiers? Because I just get hit with the slowdown ability off of hook, rinse and repeat 3 times and I'm dead
Edit: posted this then immediately got 4-man slugged by a Bubba at 5 gens, game is really at an all new low lmao
Edit 2: 4-man slugged by a huntress
Yeah, but tunneling was complained about occuring too often before the event, with the event giving survivors a lot of strong effects Its been a common occurence for most, but personally I don't blame the killers this time.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
You are not the only one, but yet you think it is important to open another Thread about it instead of using one of the 33 already existing ones.
I dont think it is as bad as people claim it to be. Certainly not a time where you want to prestige your Trapper, but I dont see much of a difference in the Killers I face and the queuetimes for Survivor in the mode are also only a bit longer compared to the regular queue (20 seconds instead of instant).
The good thing is that Killers dont need to play this mode if they dont want to. And this is what Killers said during the past Anniversaries which were killer-sided. This time they made it more survivor-sided, but it is not like Killers cannot perform. And it is not like they get less exciting abilities than before, the poison is equally as boring as Remote Pallet Breaks for example. The only difference is that now Survivors have actual good abilities.
And to be fair, with Jason releasing, they could not really afford another killer-sided Anniversary Event. This would completely have killed the queuetimes.
I am just wondering how long the "Dont be mad, it is only a gamemode, it is not supposed to be balanced"-squad will complain about the Anniversary Event being unbalanced, just not in the "right" way.
Hey again :)
I think your understating how strong the abilities survivors get are. Sure, i agree with most of your post. Especially it needing to be survivor sided+ if you don't enjoy it don't play.
However, as I said (although wasn't on the forums for the past ones) to my friends, that they should improve survivor abilities for the past anniversary events. They were weaker (marginally imo, but that'd be a semantic argument) than killers but still around the same power level. I believed the killers were stronger because they were balancing for the 1v4 aspect rather than the 1v1 aspect of the powers, which makes some sense but all the "powers" from invitations were used in chase and heavily affected the 1v1.
This year, they haven't attempted any semblance of balance. Survivors got some insanely broken abilities (multiple of them, on top of a teamwide heal) and killers get a watered down clown bottle. Its not weak, especially on certain killers, but its definitely not strong.
I do believe that the complaints are valid, with especially the pressure on it being a 10th anniversary and the issue with the cakes being a double whammy to killers (they also affected survivors, and worse so) and they just didn't need it after 2v8. At least they didn't need it to be this unbalanced.
But I do think the killers who don't enjoy it shouldn't play. queue times should reflect this, and then the message will be passed on to the next event. I personally enjoy most matches, but some get drawn out way too much due to instant health state recovery + speed bursts/ pallets.
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094754#Comment_4094754
Or not as can also mean there is more survivors in the event mode than in the normal. We don't know how many killer players are playing either mode or how many survivors. It could literally be even on killers but its faster on event because there is more survivor players.
Funny thing I just played two matches in both I ran over the survivor team in the start felt so bad I let them fix the gens and farm because its an event I don't see point to play a round where I end it from the start. I have had no reason to DC in this event don't really ever do it anyway as I play this game for fun and would not play the event mode if I would not enjoy it. Its at least different from the normal mode that I can play anytime.
Its a mixture of both imo, survivors are trying out the new mode because its fun and has some cool (but broken) mechanics, killers are avoiding it because they get a worse clown bottle as a secondary power.
For reference, my queue times are:
Event: Survivor (3 mins) Killer (instant/20s)
Not event: Survivor (40s), killer (7-10 mins).
And yeah I've had both sides of the coin and it hinges on one thing ususally. Whether or not they know how to abuse the banquet. If they have someone filling the banquet constantly, and allowing your team to heal at the best moment, have permanent boosts ect, its gonna be a rough game. If not, it can be pretty easy, so i can chill a bit more. I also don't DC, but id understand why as I've had multiple 20 minute games where the gens dont get completed but theyre constantly healing teamwide and maxing tables.
And yes it is definitely different from the normal mode, but its very much unfun for killers, as their fun hinges entirely on whether survivors know how to use the event efficiently or not. Now, again, thats happened a handful of games, and if i notice it i try and tunnel out the one focusing banquets (only been in a couple of games with swf where theyve been able to swap roles fluidly) to give me some room to breathe, every other time I don't mind the cake effects ect, or if they do the tables once, Its the repeated heals that get me on top of a free extra effect.
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@Vergiveren said:
I remember 2021-2022 dbd and survivor queue times were similar to killer queue times(1m),today survivor is almost instant,killer is 4-5m minimum.
I remember 2018 queues when killers were instant and survivors were 2-3 mins. I remember the 2020+ queues after COH nerf that left killer with longer queues and it hasn't gotten better.
The easy answer is it requires 4 survivors per 1 killer, so even if there is 70 survivors to 30 killers there will be wait times because theres "not enough survivors" even though they over double the amount of killers.
The other answer is soloqueue is a coinflip whether you get decent survivors or new players and that can really hamper your fun as survivor, and since 41% of the survivor base play soloqueue half of them are bound to suffer (this is by recent stats). And people have shifted to swf because of how annoying soloqueue can be. So even if there is 3 times the amount of survivors as killers, thats not enough and will have substantial wait times.
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@SolariusYuuhi said:
This has been a staple every event for who knows how long, and it's gone now? Why?
I dont understand the killers not getting points for hooking, but it takes you two seconds to get a cake and eat it, its infinitely easier to farm the points by eating cakes/ bringing them to a table and you get buffs.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094338#Comment_4094338
- Depends on how long you chase the wrong person, but regardless of that I often switch chases and still don't feel pressured to tunnel. Its a person by person base on what they feel and unfortunately a large amount feel that need at the slightest provocation. One scenario i often find is I chase S1, hit, find S2 while chasing S1, hit S2 and chase them, see S3 hit and chase them. And while chasing S3 i find S1 doing something and go catch them relatively quick. During this time 2 gens have popped on the outskirts and another or two has been worked on to some progress. The reason I don't feel pressured to tunnel despite switching repeatedly and loosing gens is because I got one on the hook, 2 injured, the two gens are in unimportant areas, and who knows how many resources were burned. I got 2 potential easy targets, the gens that popped were in unimportant places, and I got near guaranteed shorter chases all due to the previous. It's how people look at their situation.
- I mean, if they literally threw themselves at the killer they should be out of a safe position and injured or worse case down. If the killer literally doesn't bother to grab them (assuming it's safe to) despite that then yes it becomes a problem because the killer is so hyper focused on that one the rest are basically getting no interactions until that tunneled survivor dies and that one basically has one long chase with nothing else going on that trial. Feel free to disagree all ya want but that's where my line is drawn and a lot of others have similar lines.
- You are not me. Just as you could probably do something amazing with huntress that I could only dream of, I'm able to fight swat squads with the likes of Ghost face with things like dark devotion. Everyone is different, which I suppose is the moral of the 3 points here.
It's all basically opinions. Though I personally disagree with some of yours as shown above.
It feels like this is the furthest we can go since it seems our disagreements are based on our own assessments of the game/skill at the game, so im happy to call it here. Thanks for the back and fourth tho, has been an interesting conversation.
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@BlackJimmy88 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/469337/hot-take-on-the-exposed-condition
Nurse is in the game, so we can't have that.
Nurse is also why BHVR is too scared to buff Killer perks.
If exposed worked on, just spitballing, legion attack, trickster blades, jason spike, dredge ranged attack, ghoul attack or most powers that dont instadown itd be pretty insane.
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@Condealx said:
this event is “so survivor sided” that I never saw a Jason losing a match with no more that 1-2 gens done . Every single match 4k
Jason is a strong killer with a low-ish skill floor, so with a meta build he will be on the higher end, but even still others will struggle with the constant healing, sb, invisibility, portals ect ect. I understand your experience might not be such, but a lot of people's are just this.
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@shadownigh said:
I know it's do to the event but the gap in que times for killer is bad 7 minutes to play normal and 3 for the event its just something I noticed
Most survivors have switched to event queues because it has a fun gimmick for them instead of the usual is the optimistic explanation of why, or it is incredibly one sided and easy to farm bp is the pessimistic explanation as to why theyve switched (or both, is my opinion) which means that even though the queues were high before the event, most killers will choose the event because the queue times are lower, and there aren't anywhere near as many survivors playing the normal mode so its queue time will still be decently long.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094150#Comment_4094150
The issue is this is an argument only against the killer playing optimally, because they can take survivors out of the game, which is their job.
It's not just a killer thing, it's both sides (the playing optimally bit). The thing is that no one really calls out survivors on it even when they could OR try calling it just because they lost. Personal theory is because it's A: rarer (bar this event) B: the killer is still able to play the whole trial.
I've played against bully squads, proper bully yada yada this paragraph
Hence the above. You could have absolutely called "tryhard" on those survivors, yet didn't. I know some of my friends will call some survivors tryhards, either in good nature or scorn, but generally in discord or something and not in trial to them. That's a people thing.
I've made a couple posts about it, but if the game wants to remove these "below the belt tactics"
While I'm personally not opposed to free upgrades, I'ma point out something shocking. Killers don't need to sweat from the start of the trial to stand a chance against the average groups. It's when the survivors sweat first that the killer generally needs to sweat, but if the survivors don't sweat and the killer is sweating first they're going to die fast or in a crippled position at best. It's a weird "who draws first bead of sweat" stand off.
Funny enough tunneling and Slugging in itself isn't really below the belt. When you only see that recently unhooked survivor, no one sensible will argue. When you down someone under a pallet and there's someone else nearby no one should complain about being slugged. It going out of your way to tunnel at 5 gens despite other survivors literally throwing themselves at you where that becomes a problem. With Slugging it's "for the bleed out" or "I wanna slug everyone cause I'm a coward afraid of perks" or everyone's favorite "I'ma slug cause I neeeeeed that 4k for....I don't really know". See the difference? If not can't help ya.
Killer is definitely stronger than your average soloqueue
What I quoted is true. I can win as the likes of GF, Pig, and Trapper even against your average swat squad with gimmicky builds. Now, I got to work my butt off for it compared to say Artist, but it can be done. Generally, all I see is people copying the meta or content creators which then leads to trouble when against people who know what they doing. Killers as a whole are just fine.
ill go point by point here:
- Killers don't need to sweat against your average survivors, your correct. However, realising they're your average survivors or not takes a chase or two, and gens can pop incredibly quickly if you chase the wrong person. To switch from chase 1/2 times and not get a down makes you feel the pressure to tunnel, even if only one gen has popped. I usually play sweaty for the first few chases then turn it down when i realise theyre just not that strong. It depends on the survivors and whether i can comfortably get a hook or two before 2 gens pop.
- I agree with tunneling/slugging not being below the belt, was just paraphrasing using the terminology used in the comment i quoted (might've been yours), im completely fine with good survivors playing efficiently and good killers playing efficiently. The comment "It going out of your way to tunnel at 5 gens despite other survivors literally throwing themselves at you where that becomes a problem" again i disagree. Much like how if a survivor group plays efficiently from the outset i don't scorn them. Its after a two/three chases that i start to question whether theyre slugging/tunneling cuz they have to or can. Even if 1 survivors throwing themselves under, doesn't mean two gens cant pop straight after, and then the heat is really on. But yes, you should tone it down once youve noticed theyre not that good.
- "What I quoted is true. I can win as the likes of GF, Pig, and Trapper even against your average swat squad with gimmicky builds. Now, I got to work my butt off for it compared to say Artist, but it can be done. Generally, all I see is people copying the meta or content creators which then leads to trouble when against people who know what they doing. Killers as a
wholeare just fine." sorry ima block quote and then pick it apart. I cannot get a consistent 2k with some of the weaker killers on none meta builds. I often play some of the weaker killers for fun (hag, cenobite, ghost face, doctor old myers ect). Yes that could be a skill issue, especially since im not as well versed with those killers (i main deathslinger, jason, wraith and huntress right now, very much a ranged killer main), but even when i play my mains i generally don't play the META build (for example my jason build is discordance, bbq, ruin and pain res rather than the totem build or friends till the end and furtive chase with two slowdown perks) but not weak builds as i understand the killers need them to play more casual. I agree killers as a whole are fine, i would also say survivors have a lot of tools to change that, and id rather overestimate them at first, see how the game goes, and then play depending on how skillfull they are than underestimate them, have to sweat my balls off to possibly get a 2k because I didn't go in sweating
I don't think we disagree on much here tbh.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
No, or we end up with the nurse situation we had years ago, or blight would become even stronger.
powers should not interact with certain perks, it's by design.i shudder at 7 blinks nurse with starstruck and IF. that was pain
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@YaBoi0215 said:
I don't know if the issue is my where I'm at in MMR or just getting crappy matches but I have had the worst time in the event. Every match is just Killers hard sweating for the 4k, tunneling, proxy camping the entire time. Or it's survivors just hard genrushing from the start and nobody in the lobby interacting with the event. If I wanted to hard sweat and win every match then I would just playing regular 1v4 without all the wacky and goofy stuff. Which is exactly what I've gone back to doing. I just don't see why it's so hard to just have any sort of fun in this game. Everybody treats every match as life or death. As if they lose this match they won't win million dollars or their family will perish.
All I ask from the community is to just have fun. Enjoy the wacky and silly things that you can do in the event. Have fun with the other people in the game that you normally would be at odds with. These events are meant to bring people together and to have laughs and farm BPs. I've had 2-3 matches so far where I've honestly had a wonderful time. Using the invis or the invul to make plays, lose killers, and do other funny things. Did I escape? Nope. Do I care? Absolutely not. The event isn't meant for winning. It's meant for fun and goofs. Just go have fun and goof around with each other. I promise you'll enjoy it more and you won't raise your cortisol trying to hard sweat in a mode where somebody can invul sabo your hook and auto pick the whole team up with a banquet table.
So the issue is 1 of 2 things:
- If you don't bring a good build/killer if you go against a co-ordinated group of people your going to struggle.
- If you take too long to judge how well the match is going to go it can end up with an autoloss, this even more-so then others.
I've played games where it started off fine, got 3/4 hooks in the first two gens done, then i struggled, especially with the buffs they can get by setting the table, and they end up with a 4e that feels entirely because i played chill and they didn't. If i had sweated a bit harder earlier, maybe then i could've got one person out then chilled and it wouldve felt less devastating. This isn't so much on the survivor side as the killer side.
As a killer, i feel if i misjudge it i get a very unfun game mixed with teabagging, and frustration at being unable to down anyone/them getting healed up by the banquet.
As a survivor, ive yet to have a game, but could very well run into a game, where the killer starts chill then ups the ante on jason/ghoul/nurse/blight and starts sweating and i struggle, but then I blame myself and the team for not being able to play it out, whereas there's much less room to react to these things on the killers end.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094054#Comment_4094054
This is pretty much my assumption as well. The past few events have been killer-sided and I really think that the Devs this time went the other way around. And in theory Killers should also be fine with it, because "You dont have to play in the event queue" was a common thing to say when someone complained about the killer-sided event. Seems not to apply this time for some reason.
Overall I think they did not want to do another killer-sided Anniversary Event when Killer Queues were already long due to Jason. Even now I dont have long Survivor Queues, I wait 20 seconds instead of them being instant, so not much has changed for Survivors here. Event Queues for Killer are also better than they were before, which is a good thing.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094104#Comment_4094104
I don't think the event is as survivor-sided as everyone else does because you can get some really broken generator spawns and survivors often waste a lot of time messing with the event stuff rather than getting gens done. But I'm not really thinking about it that much. It's more about getting 18 cakes for every ~3-4 games I play which makes the game so much more bearable.
I would agree. I did not play the first day, simply because currently my country is in a heatwave and it is not really enjoyable to sit in front of the PC and sweat (no pun intended). But I dont think it is as bad as people claim it to be. I dont think that I will play or run into any low Tier Killers in the event, but this is just normal for me. The only difference I see is a higher Legion count and thats about it.
Its very 50/50 imo, I've played maybe 20 games of the event (and im in the UK with the heatwave, its killing me) and ive had i think 7 games where they knew how to abuse the feast mechanic, stocking it up then using it for aoe heal and boost mid chases whilst pressuring gens, and making the game incredibly hard for me. The other games I had casual gamer's who weren't sweating and and used the cakes ect but stocked up maybe one or two times the banquet.
The games with the less casual gamers were 10+ minute games due to me having to drop chases, allow them to reset whilst chasing someone else and then hook when it was safe. It took me so long, even with tunnelling when possible. Genuinely sweat fests all around, and it wasn't enjoyable at all. It really did extenuate the difference between killer/survivor in the event if they knew how to play.
The casual games i kinda just let happen, committed to all my chases even when it was bad and had a blast against some good survivors. They didn't spam heals/cakes ect so I kinda just relaxed and didn't play efficiently (even though my killer/build were made incase they were good survivors).
In the games with less causal gamers, i either 3/4k or they all escaped. there was no inbetween. In my games playing laid back, it was usually a 2e just because my gen pressure wasn't all that and even if i returned to hook i tried to focus the unhooker unless they bodyblocked for them. Idm, it was more fun when i wasnt trying as hard, but it definitely can go from 0 to 100 depending on the survivors and how good they are in the event.
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@CorgiSploots said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094079#Comment_4094079
I despise this argument because it's such a strawman and playing obtuse for the sake of playing obtuse. There's a massive visible difference between playing to win and abusing aspects of the game to ensure you're the only one having any fun at the expense of everyone else in the lobby. We already have anti camp abandon bots base kit BT, and these werent added in for the sake of it. They were added as a result of killer players refusing to play fair in any regards. It was so bad before basekit BT you might as well write off the match if hooked because killer would instantly tunnel.
We have anti-camp and base kit BT because devs realised to remove tunneling/camping they would need to rework most of the game, and that whilst being tunneled/camped isn't fun and just telling survivors to rush gens and get out isnt fun for the survivor on hooks, removing the ability to play efficiently massively nerfs killers and makes it so against good (not competitive, not bully squad, just competent) survivors it becomes a struggle.
"refusing to play fair in any regards"- it is playing fair, its playing by the rules of the game. What you mean is you don't like them playing hyper-efficiently because they're struggling/want to win and it removes your ability to play the game. My response is going to be that yes, yours and other survivors fun is IMPORTANT. heavily so, which is why when they added basekit bt/haste and anti-camp i was glad. But unless the game moves in a casual way, you cannot remove the advantage tunneling/camping gives. By this i mean not just removing camping/slugging/tunneling (or make it entirely innefficient), but also making it easier for killers to give pressure round the board and making it so they're able to slowdown the game/snowball without tunneling/camping (which a lot of killers struggle with as it stands). The devs have made it clear through their targeted nerfs that they don't just care about casual play but comp/tourney scene and high levels of play, the nerfs i can use as an example is the DH nerf, and the nerf to huntresses ms. Both of these heavily impeded casual play whilst DH still has uses at high mmr because its still good.
So yes, i feel for the people who hate camping/tunneling/slugging, i do. In fact i advocate for balancing more casually. But they need to balance casually around the board. Because whilst killer is stronger than soloqueue survivor, it is also widely accepted its in its least fun state is been in for years, with the constant need to apply pressure, constant uptime and pressure whilst survivors generally get downtime. Survivors (at least the average/soloqueue experience) is weaker than the average killer experience, doesn't make killer fun right now.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094079#Comment_4094079
Your free to play on the normal mode, but your going to be called on for being a try hard if you play like there's a knife at your neck. And no you can't complain about it because you KNOW there's nothing really at stake yet continue to play like that in effectively a casual game. No one's getting banned over being a tryhard, but everyone has a right to call people on stuff that makes the game unfun for them. Your just as free to say something like "my fun is tryharding" and people got to accept that's what you like or whine just as when you get told to stop being a tryhard you either accept people don't like it or whine. But honestly in my opinion it would make the game more enjoyable to not have people sucking the life out of the game by optimizing themselves to basically be robots.
Moving on, it's not playing to win that's the problem. It's playing to win using every below the belt tactic and taking any joy out of the game for the others. Sure sometimes you even get the occasional game where everyone is tryharding and everyone enjoys themselves with everything silly or scummy thing happening, but are you really going to tell me that the average survivor likes to be non stopped chased from the start of each unhook to dead having about 3 or often less minutes actually being able to play? (Time on hook and dirt do not count towards these 3 or less min) That's why the "chill" players complain. The chill ones don't really care about winning, but if they lost due to cheep or straight up dull tactics instead of something interesting like a close game or a funny stomp…well skippy what do you think happens?
As for the second paragraph...are you talking about the event or normally? Cause let me tell ya...in normal 1v4 killer is the stronger of the 2. Que the outrage.
The issue is this is an argument only against the killer playing optimally, because they can take survivors out of the game, which is their job.
I've played against bully squads, proper bully squads not just some rando's with flashlights, and I've played against some pretty pretty insane blights/nurses/hillbillys (I've played against lillithomen's blight, and alf's nurse) but never complain about the sweaty/optimised playstyle because everyone's trying to win. Thats the point of the game, its only playing like "holding a knife to your throat" when a killer trys to win asap, but when survivors bring ds, head on, dead hard/sb, adrenaline with 4 flashlights and try and make your life a living hell whilst having 1 person set on gen's and them all being decent loopers, you also feel the "Knife at your throat" playstyle from them. At the end of the day, thats less likely to happen on survivors sure because 58% of survivors soloqueue, so most the time your against rando's, and so it feels worse to be tunnelled out/slugged for the 4k ect ect, but theyre both being tryhards and ignoring one sides fun for another.
I've made a couple posts about it, but if the game wants to remove these "below the belt tactics" that your of course alluding to (only from the killer, tunneling/slugging are the first that come to mind but theres probably 5/6 more you could educate me on) we need to casualise the game, which means whilst removing these tactics, also making it easier for killers to gain pressure (such as a basekit thanat) and make it easier to snowball so they don't need to sweat. It needs to be easier for killers to gain pressure, and also punish/remove the ability to tunnel/slug heavily. Doing one without the other just ruins one side, and I wouldn't advocate for either of them alone.
Killer is definitely stronger than your average soloqueue if they play the best killers/builds. The average killer vs the average survivor, killer probably beats. But we want diversity in killers/killer builds from the sounds of things, we want the trappers, ghostfaces and huntresses. So we do need the weaker killers to be stronger, and buff the communication between the soloqueue survivors so they go up to casual swf, and balance around that.