vampire_toothy
vampire_toothy
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@fluffybunny said:
We should include things to give killers a better experience, too. Like taking points away for tbagging/taunting at pallets or in the opened door and so on.I was thinking about adding that, but I wanted to see how people liked the base idea first. I'm not opposed to making that part of the idea though.
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@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Honestly I consider this the lesser of 2 evils.In a perfect world we would be able to have SWF groups who never share info and the game would always be 100% balanced without the need for VC because friends weren't communicating with each other.
But that's not happening, so we can instead do the next best thing and give everyone the same tools so we can properly balance in accordance with reality.
Everyone having VC is bad sure. But only SOME people having VC is much worse.
Also perks made obsolete can be reworked to account for changes
You do have an interesting point, but it is a bit harder to sell me on the "give everyone VC". If there ever were to be one in the game I'd much rather it be a preference that anyone can have on or off - though odds are that most groups probably wouldn't bother to use the ingame chat when they already have programs like discord.
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@PubStar87 said:
Killers should not get to know where all 4 survivors are up to 12 times a matchPlease for the love of all that is holy remove it
To clarify, BBQ isn't even that bad of a perk to deal with. This perk by design encourages killers to leave the hook by being told where survivors are and granting them a stackable bonus in bloodpoints for each unique survivor hooked. Personally I'd say that the bloodpoints alone are a good enough reason for me to run the perk as it's excellent for cutting down the grind.
But sure, let's go over the aura reading - you're misinforming people who are looking at this post.
Out of the 12 times you will hook a survivor, only 11 of those times at most will actually mean anything as the 12th hook means everyone is dead. For the sake of simplicity I will only explain BBQ at tier 3. Whenever you hook a survivor it only allows you to see auras of people further than 40 meters away which does not count any other counters to the perk. This perk by definition is rewarding killers for doing well in a match and allows them to start their next chase sooner which is something the devs have said they wanted to aim for - more chases. Removing this perk only brings consequences as more killers will exclusively camp (more than what you see now anyways) and you only end up increasing the overall grind to the game itself which already requires a lot of grinding.Now, this perk also comes with a number of counters and they are the following ;
- Hide behind generators : This isn't a perfect counter as sometimes you aren't positioned right but it helps, infact whether it's intended or not, the aura color of generators actually is almost identical to the aura color of survivors as of 2.2.0 or otherwise chapter 9 which released the spirit.
- Mindgames : Play a game with the killer, be unpredictable. Count to four and then move in a totally different direction, a smart player can utilize this idea and make it work out (well, unless it's nurse but even then it's not impossible)
- Lockers : As of 2.4.0 which released the legion, you can just enter a locker and your aura will be hidden from any aura reading perk in the game.
- Distortion : This perk came out as of 2.4.0, you get 3 tokens and everytime your aura should've been shown it doesn't and you don't display scratch marks for 10 seconds. You of course lose a token everytime your aura is blocked, use them right!
- Be within range, the killer doesn't know where you are if you're within 40 meters. You can literally walk outside of this range the moment after the survivor is hooked.
- Position yourself at a loop : Well this isn't a counter but although it's subjective, in my opinion it's more fun to be chased, if you position yourself at a loop then you can just dive right into the action and that right there is just a win/win if that's what you're into.
For what it's worth, BBQ is actually healthier for DbD as good players will actually make good use of it to encourage more fun and exciting gameplay especially for longer time players.
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I believe my current build is something like this ;
Breakdown
Deliverance
Balanced Landing
Hope or Adrenaline -
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Literally just do the title.Everyone has SWF level info and coordination, then rework anything that needs reworking as a result of this, then Nerf survivors/Buff Killers to counterbalance the change.
Trying to avoid the issue of VC without removing SWF and the pregame survivor chat is futile, so instead just balance with the assumption that it is there
This wouldn't work, this is because there is no guarantee that a group of friends will want to use a VC with the solo to begin with. Some friend groups would rather just have a casual conversation as they play the game rather than have someone scream about what killer is being used or what they are doing and in return you end up causing certain perks which solo's occasionally use (example : kindred) to become obsolete. The main thing to keep in mind is that you don't know the random person you're going into a match with, you could hope that it will be a pleasant experience or it could just be a horrible match with nothing but complaints, slurs, screaming, etc. This is obviously worse case scenario, but I'm just not so sure about how many people are all that excited about the idea of having an ingame voice chat.
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I think this idea is neat but as stated before, Huntress Lullaby for the most part is fine as it is currently plus you could abuse this new version of the perk with thrill of the hunt while playing spirit as it's basically free prayer beads after a certain point. (It's possible that other killers like hillbilly, nurse and possibly wraith could do the same). The idea is neat, but I can see some things going wrong with it.
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@P3ToxicLaurie said:
Disclaimer: This post is very opinionated but reply with your own opinions!Im sorry but when I look throught the “balance fixes” or whatever its called category, all I see is killers complaining about slight advantages that survivors have. Im honestly hoping the devs will read this so they dont get convinced to do any of these.
-The Hatch.
I see a lot of salty killer mains on here complaining about the hatch. First of all, killer is already very overpowered. Removing the hatch would make killer even more unbalanced. Sure, the idea to close it was good, but thats basically a game over for survivor. Unless, they can clutch (assuming) three gens. Also, this is targeted toward specific killers who think theyre gods at the game but complain about hatch. If youre so good at the game, you should be able to track down the hatch, and grab the survivor. Perks like insidious would help. Also, you could just kill the survivors before the gens are done (its not that hard) plus, i dont think that you would want to wait around for an immersed survivor whose probably sitting in a locker, waiting for you to DC. If you really think that hatch is a free win for survivors youre wrong. Im sorry but you are.-Infinites.
Infinites are patched and it is basically impossible to infinite. Killer will get bloodlust and get you. Killer is so easy, and i can easily counter infinites. (im a trash killer)
I know my infinite point wasnt as in depth as my hatch breakdown. But the overall lesson is that killers need to stsrt getting used to not winning and grow a pair. ( y e e h a w ) 🤠
Also, i know the devs will most likely never remove the hatch, but if theyre thinking about it, this is to persuade them not to.
As far as the hatch goes, I could not care less about what happens in regards to hatch as the only time it's ever frustrating is if a survivor brings in a key which in that case it goes in two ways ;
A : 1 or 2 people die and the survivor uses the key to leave early which can upset the killer
or
B : A survivor uses a key and ditches their team so they die leaving their teammates upset.
So as long as you aren't using a key, hatch isn't an issue. In addition to this, a killer isn't a "god" if they get a hatch grab because that isn't a matter of skill, that's a matter of having the patience at a hatch standoff where both sides can be just as bad as each other where both feel completely and totally entitled to their own outcome. You also treat it like it's the easiest thing in the world for a killer to get all kills before a single gen or two gets done when in reality even the best killers can fail to do this unless the survivors are incredibly bad or unless you're playing like a dick with the strongest possible setup you can get your hands on.
tl;dr your opinion is flawed and you did not put very much thought into this at all, though I will agree that the hatch issue is a lost cause. Reading your post here really gives a "my opinion is law" and "I can never be wrong" vibe.Regarding infinites, this is actually the best way to describe a very good loop that against most killers in the community they might as well be called infinites just for how long a chase can be dragged out by them. Examples of these incredibly good loops generally include the disturbed ward center building (especially with balanced landing), haddonfield (structures with balanced landing + garage building if certain windows are open), badham's "house of pain" (same thing as on haddonfield), wretched shop has a pretty nasty loop and some of the coldwind farm maps are also notoriously bad but not just for bad structures but also the see-through jungle gyms. Bloodlust should not exist as it was a bandaid to many of the bad loops and infact was nerfed when thanks to the dev's many of the double pallets and near-infinite loops were patched. The real solution is to continue off of this which means to remove bloodlust and fix up the remaining bad maps - that right there is infact, real balance. The fact that you do not go in-depth about this yet can talk a lot about the hatch (which even that point is lackluster) tells me that you're lacking a bit in your points here whether that's intended or not.
Lastly, some (not all) survivors are just as bad with their complaints. With a community like this, both sides are split to the point where the moment one change is implemented to help one side, the other will riot about it. I could make a post talking about how survivors complain about everything, but at the end of the day that wouldn't solve any of the problems in the community and the game itself. You become part of the problem when you complain about the fact that people are complaining.
By no means is this an attack just to clarify, but I do think you need a broader look at the game itself as both sides have their issues.
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Spirit is definitely my favorite, she's fun to play with an excellent power that can turn anything into a mindgame plus her lore is good and her design is probably my favorite out of all the killers.
Coming in a close second place though has to be Wraith, there is just something so basic yet relaxing about using wraith. Plus the cosmetics he gets are pretty cool.
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After Nurse and Billy I'm going to have to go with Spirit. Spirit is great because she can use her power for mobility and can turn absolutely any loop into a mindgame if you know what you're doing. It's also nice that she can make good use out of plenty of timer based perks such as MYC thanks to her mobility.
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Depends on my mood, sometimes I don't use addons but if I know for a matter of fact that the survivors I'm going against are good I will use addons (or if I'm bored).
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@Tucking_Friggered said:
@SenzuDuck said:
@Tucking_Friggered said:
Yes, we do base balancing the game around what the best groups can do because if you do not then they can exploit whatever balance issue is there and become unbeatable.Yes, you can absolutely exploit bad killers, all they need to do is stop posting and play the game to gain more experience.
I find it odd how they all claim they dodge SWF but still have a major issue with it - almost like they just want the fun removed.
If you think SWF is hard, and you start buffing around that, you make the game impossible for solo players, well done, you've further ruined the game because some bad killers on the forum can't handle SWF.
At any point are you going to post something that isn't pointless rhetoric? The posts you are making are remedial. You can boil it down to "leave SWF broken and OP because i'd like to convince you that if you buff killers to deal with them you leave solo survivors hosed, while at the same time I hope that you aren't intelligent enough to know nerfing the living hell out of SWF will solve the issue and have none of the drawbacks."
Some of the best killers in this community know and state SWF is broken and you, an unknown in comparison, speak as if you breeze through SWF like it's nothing. It's all hot air. Nobody cares about potato groups it's about the best of the best getting a free ride because the game is exploitable with VoIP and they know how to do it to the Nth degree.
I don't agree with Senzu very often but I think you're looking at the wrong issue. You're not wrong when you say that SWF grants an advantage to players considering that they are more likely to have more information than solo's and put that information to good use but the problem isn't the fact that people want to play with their friends.
The real problem comes with the duration of the matches if you use half of the killers in the game, in which case the real problem we should be taking a look at is good players on bad maps. If you take a look at maps like disturbed ward, haddonfield or pretty much any coldwind farm map then those are horrible for killers let alone if you put a survivor with any form of a brain on them. Once you fix up the problematic maps, it's really only a matter of making some of the more lackluster killers (Trapper, Leatherface, Pig, Doctor, Legion & Clown) more worthwhile to use.
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@tt_ivi_99 said:
Devs said they wanted this "stalk" mechanic just like Myers but they felt It was unnecessary and they removed it.It's cool the fact that you can not abuse his power but not being able to hit survivors is too much. It would be better if you could stab someone just like It works now but the timing doesnt drop down, instead the survivor suffers from a random debuff, just to keep his power interesting.
Well, part of the issue from how I look at it is that legion uses the same exact cooldown mechanic as spirit with some slight changes to it, it's a little too similar too soon pretty much. Granted, we could ignore this and totally take out the stalking idea or keep it but it more so becomes difficult to rule it out when we don't really know in what way they wanted to do the stalk mechanic.
We could make it so the frenzy applies more debuffs, but otherwise there wouldn't really be a point to spam hit survivors other than letting them get even further away so this rework really just allows people to apply deep wounds and then actually be able to chase.
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@bubbleblowingfeng said:
@KoolaidInMyCup said:
If people wanna bring DS, they should be allowed to because they used up 1 of their 4 perk slots for something that gives them 4s of escape time.Exactly! I think that killers should behave like every single survivor has DS and act accordingly. If killers are really torn up about the four seconds of stun and release time, maybe they should work harder to become better players.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and give a reasonable response here ;
It's 4 seconds of stun time, not chase time. That means that in the 4 seconds that a survivor stuns you without counting any form of an exhaustion or speedboost related perk, that survivor is going to make about 16 meters in distance before the killer can move again. Keep in mind that most killers (not counting Legion, Nurse, Huntress, Spirit and Hag) are 115% movement speed which means they move 0.6 meters per second faster than survivors. To make up the distance gained without enduring, it will take you around 3.47 seconds to make it to where the survivor was ontop of that in which case you're spending roughly another 3 seconds to catch up right behind them meaning that in total decisive strike will cost you somewhere around 11 seconds in total in the best possible case scenario without enduring, if that survivor makes it to another loop then that's an entirely different story especially if that survivor has any form of a brain at all.
Now, add non-obsession DS to that and you get a whole lot more time wasted than that, which you won't know for fact that the said survivor will have non-obsession DS unless you played with them before. Any good survivor is going to make the most out of those "4 seconds" and any killer, including good ones are just going to get annoyed whether or not it's a quick down afterwords or not. Some killers of course are better equipped to handle DS thanks to their powers but it does not change the fact that DS like NOED rewards failure and punishes players who won. I for instance do not mind that there is a perk that can stun the killer for a short period of time, what I do mind is that there is a perk designed for bad players who can't play the game and get rewarded for their own misplay, the same can be said about NOED as those perks play the game for you.
Now, enduring is a totally different story as it is nice to get the reduced stun but it still does not change the annoyance DS brings to the game. Sure you can wait at a high area and a survivor can just fall but that itself can be negated with balanced landing and that survivor was just dumb to go down at a hill to begin with and dribbling, well that isn't really going to happen so much with the hook changes but if it does then you're still wasting a lot of time and making a risky move. I know I'll also probably hear something about slugging too, but that then I'd have to argue that you shouldn't have to lose your well earned hook points (and emblem) just because of a perk. It's why I like deliverance as a perk because although it lets the survivor go, you don't lose progress you made towards the game as the killer.
That being said, I do at least see the potential behind the new hook spawn generation and I think it's an important thing they have changed as of this moment because even if it's flawed now, we should wait to see if any improvements come to the numbers.
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@Master said:
@greylurker said:
A lot of People like being scared. That's a lot of the fun of a horror movie is the jump scares. You don't get that as the killer.Actually playing killer is the scary part of this game, my biggest jumpscare in DBD was a claudette jumping out of a shadow and dropping a pallet on me. The onyl killer you need to be scared of are the god nurses, but they are really rare.
I'd argue differently, Myers is a pretty scary killer at times knowing that he can pop tier 3 at any passing moment and you're kept on edge as you constantly look around (this is especially true for scratched mirror, it isn't strong but it's a scary one) and spirit is also pretty nice for getting a scare on people especially if you're running prayer beads. Hag and pig can scare some players.
Regarding the OP ;
Now, for me I already play roughly 60-70% killer but one thing that would get me away from my small pool of killers is to give the lesser killers (Legion, Leatherface, Pig, Trapper, Doctor and Clown) some attention with reworks or buffs respectively to make them more fun for both sides and/or also more viable. Every other killer is mostly fine with the exception of some tweaks to their powers every here and there and adjustments to some of their addons. If you did that, I can at least assure you I would move onto using more than just mostly Spirit and Wraith. -
S-tier is not something to go off of when considering what a balanced state for killers should be, this is mostly because if you did that, there would be no tier-list or people would still make a tier-list anyways that gains popularity. Now, if we're talking about what killer should be the baseline strength to go off of? In my personal opinion Spirit demonstrates the perfect level every killer should be at or around while also having addons like the ones on Wraith which demonstrate what addons should be (addons that actually change how you can play).
The reason why I say this is that no killer should ever be totally brainless to play, all killers should feel like they require some form of learning curve with a great strength and some form of counterplay for good players to utilize and account for. Meaning, all killers should be great but only if you take the time to learn them.
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@Lateral said:
Welcome to DBD. This game is made for Killers enjoyment, Survivors are merely NPC's with players behind them.Killers, because every multiplayer game needs an easy-mode, hand-held, babied crutch class corrosively eating away at the games community from within.
And why is it this way? because killers /cried damn hard for their endless catalog of buffs and survivor nerfs.
Looking at all your posts, I think you're right - you sound like an NPC with the amount of times you've repeated that same exact line of "easy-mode, hand-helf, babied crutch". Change it up a little, your code can't be that outdated!
But what I don't think you realize is that if you don't count the legion, the game is the closest it's ever been to being balanced especially when compared to the very early days of the game. Personally I wanted fun killers that require some form of skill to use with a proper learning curve like the spirit, not the broken mess that's the legion that can ignore literally everything the game has to offer.
But to clarify, Legion being busted is not the fault of the community but instead the fact that if I remember correctly on the dev steam, they had to redo legion's power and because of that we ended up with the result we have now. Most of the skilled killers I've seen will agree that Legion in their current state needs to go because their power is neither fun for survivors or killers and removes any and all skill from the game completely while also not being so great.
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I'm surprised nobody has brought up disturbed ward. If there was one map I had to remove it would be disturbed ward because if you have balanced landing there is nothing you can do as a killer on the map especially as the structure itself can contain up to 4 safe pallets, 3 good windows and several dropoffs allowing for a completely unfun game. This is unlike the other crotus map which is actually balanced appropriately (the chapel).
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Thanatophobia really isn't worth it on its own, for me I find that these builds work pretty well for me ;
MYC / BBQ / Shadowborn / Sloppy Butcher
MYC / BBQ / STBFL / Sloppy Butcher
MYC / BBQ / STBFL / ShadowbornBasically I mix a couple of perks every here and there though I've been experimenting with spies from the shadow which I could see being somewhat useful though I could also recommend swapping MYC for pop goes the weasel too if you're looking to slow the game down in any sense.
More than anything, what Spirit needs is the ability to snowball and keep the pressure going so being able to find people for me is more important than just stalling out the players which is why I've recently found shadowborn to be pretty nice. In addition to this if you use Save The Best For Last you can close the gap eventually allowing for some pretty quick phase attacks without wasting too much of your power. -
Well, I guess the post already goes over this but I will not be putting any perks in here because they are overpowered but simply why I think they are bad design. here we go.
For Survivors ;
Adrenaline - As of the current state of the game, adrenaline simply does way too much plain and simple. Its existence alone can render particular builds as worthless as it can immediately heal you and grant you a 5 second speed boost, if a killer is in the middle of a chase then they can be greeted with a nasty surprise especially if more than 2 survivors are running this perk.
Decisive Strike - This perk rewards survivors for playing poorly while punishing the player for doing well in a match, it's the definition of a get out of jail free card and unlike the perk above, it should be totally removed as no perk should ever grant you a free benefit for failing.
We're Gonna Live Forever - Encourages people to farm their teammates. I love extra bloodpoints, but this perk is a one way road to being totally hated by your entire team and can throw off the game simply by the behavior it's most beneficial to.
Hope - This isn't really strong but for a long period of time this perk can allow you to move considerably faster than the typical survivor (I believe +5/6/7%?) and because of this increased movement speed, certain killers such Myers will totally struggle to catch up if they're running scratched mirror, vanity mirror or judith's tombstone. Other killers such as Spirit, Huntress, Hag and Legion will only end up being 3% faster though luckily in most cases they have a power that can help them on most maps except for Huntress if she's on the wrong map in this scenario.
Urban Evasion - Not exactly my definition of strong, just my definition of purely annoying as the most annoying thing to experience in this game for me is the inability to find people where devs have been pushing for a game that revolves more around the killer chasing rather than seeking at this point. A perk like urban evasion allows you to sneak away without effort and remain hidden causing the greatest annoyance to some killers especially if paired with a map like rotten fields.For Killers ;
Rancor - For the entire endgame the obsession can do absolutely nothing without being instadowned and getting a free mori. It isn't really a strong perk but admittedly it's rather annoying where even if you don't run an obsession perk you're denied any ability to properly contribute to the end-game and are forced to either hide or leave early instead of being able to save teammates.
Ruin - This perk plays the game for you in an unhealthy way. Learning to properly apply pressure to the map is something you should learn and experiment with in various different ways especially when there are other perks and mechanics that can do its job much better but with just a little more effort. In addition to this, the perk becomes meaningless as only newer players will struggle as veteran players will hit skillchecks at ease and will find the totem due to bad spawns (which to the credit of BHVR, they are working on that). While I'm aware that there are other perks that play the game for you to an extent, they at least accomplish a healthier playstyle and rewards all players that use them alike.
Fire Up - Simply put, it can do what multiple other perks can do but in a lesser state. The values are horrible yet I cannot see a viable way to buff it without totally breaking it when paired with other perks. I'm more in favor of keeping the concept of the perk in mind but reworking it and even buffing other perks in compensation. At no point should a perk be just a "lesser" version of another.
Dying Light/Remember Me - Both of these perks have the same problem. They don't make being the obsession a risk, they just make being the obsession unfun as there is simply no reason not to totally tunnel them to the ground with these perks The obsession isn't penalized with a new risk, your team is penalized with holding M1 down for even longer.
Legio - Wait, that's not a perkOverall, that's just my opinion if I had to take a look at a first selection of perks I think are unhealthy. Not because they are strong or unbalanced even if some of them actually are but because it just creates an unfun experience for people at the end of the day.
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@Zagrid said:
NOED change would be fine as long as DS gets changed to slow the killer by 10% for 1 minute. So the killers don’t get free kills and survivors don’t get free escapesThe thing to keep in mind is that certain killers and builds would end up getting pulverized by such an idea. All 110% or 4.4 m/s killers would suddenly become the same exact speed of a regular survivor (100% or 4 m/s) while other killers with specific addons such as scratched mirror, vanity mirror or judith's tombstone on Myers would actually cause him to be slower than survivor for up to a full minute meaning that change would just be totally unhealthy for the game for an entire minute. A 10% movement speed boost would be no different than getting 2 stacks of the current PWYF, infact you'd lose it faster than that perk as opposed to losing 1 token per hit you'd just totally lose it by hitting a survivor. As for the pallet breaking part of that perk, survivors would still have jungle gyms at their disposal meaning it would not be a free kill especially considering that most pallets should be broken by the end of the match anyways.
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@Vietfox said:
Any TL;DR pls?If you can't be bothered to read the entire post then you might as well not comment at all considering the fact that condensing such a post causes you to lose important details, not everyone is going to shorten their post because a few people can't be bothered to read and hear out the points provided. I'd recommend taking some time to read it as it really isn't that long of a post.
Going on with the actual post itself, I only deem a person as a "tryhard" the moment they avoid any concept of skilled play and use cheap tactics for the pure intent to win and only ever to win without ever changing their playstyle, essentially they play in the cheapest and most annoying way possible or end up doing something so insane that to the majority of the players it should not be possible at all, though that last bit isn't something that can happen in DbD.
For this reason, I do not consider an optimal player on either side to be a "tryhard" as for a survivor they play to their goal to survive and as a killer they play to their goal to kill. This is simply because there really isn't much to learn so playing the game right isn't the biggest challenge in the world meaning there is nothing really annoying or cheap about playing the game as intended, just frustrating. This is a part I find a lot of players get mixed up about as they often blame their frustrating experiences on tryhards rather than admitting that the killer or survivor was playing right to accomplish their goal.
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@PiiFree said:
@Vietfox said:
I've seen Umbra_bug, she's a beast with the huntress. She gets 3-4K in almost every match, 2K when survivors are good.
It's funny how people use Tru3's video as an example of poor balance, i guess we gotta balance the game around killers without perks and addons, what could go wrong when using perks and addons?
It's funny that you always pick the top killer streamers to justify balance.
Let's take a look at No0b3, who just managed to get 50 escapes in a row. Let's also not forget all the other Survivor streamers with escape rates of 80% and higher.
It's simple to look at streamers that made it their job to play Dead By Daylight and use them as a reference for balance when you watch them stomping casuals.
Have you ever watched streamers play against each other? Whenever I see that, they play like pussies because they don't want to destroy and embarass the other streamer.
It appears to me that most players in this community simply never played in a coordinated SWF. If they did, they would have realized how broken it is.
I would just like to point out, if you're looking for examples you aren't going to get what you want out of videos cherrypicked by youtubers or even if a streamer or youtuber had a good day as winning most of your matches is not the problem as most players are not really that great at the game. If you really want to get real results you need hard statistics of the very best players in the game as a whole and have them all play against each other and really see where that ends up going on average. General statistics hold a better answer to the issues the game has than what any video a single individual can pump out.
What becomes problematic is not what the best players are capable of as they should be rewarded for their ability to play the game well, what becomes problematic is that options become limited the more people are driven to strictly just want to win and this is where against serious players you end up with killers like leatherface, doctor and pig for instance being totally worthless and depending on the situation, just an annoying nuisance to the game itself, the same can be said about certain perks, items or addons both survivors and killers alike might have.
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@mint said:
A lot of survivors (especially the really skilled/high hour ones) seem to hate legion. why? Whenever I play against them it seems like they get gen rushed, and only end up killing one person. Maybe I'll grow to hate them now that the new patch is out.Legion has a long line of issues and unfortunately a lot of this stems from the fact that there really isn't that many interactions in the game at all to account for a killer as fundamentally broken as legion. When I play legion there is no skill involved and I know that I'm guaranteed a kill or even more by moonwalking or using frank's mixtape, with legion the outcome is always very predictable and it simply comes down to "will the survivors do the gens or heal?", if the answer is gens you lose but not without taking someone down with you, if the answer is heal you win. Unlike Nurse, legion can break the game with no skillful impact as all skill is removed because I can vault windows, pallets and if I really wanted to be a dick, I can moonwalk to ensure every single chase ends in 20 seconds or less. As a survivor I know that nearly anything I do against a legion will be meaningless as anything I do will result in me being hit anyways. For these reasons, a lot of the previously most hated killers (Nurse, Freddy, Doctor) ended up being less hated than Legion and for me it's gotten to the point where I actually feel relief going against Nurse because there is at least something I can do as a player.
TL;DR - Legion removes skill and nothing matters as the game becomes a preset result.
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@Blueberry said:
@Jack11803 said:
You sit on a throne of lies! We were complaining about him using no perks or add ons. AND HE STILL ISNT! STOP WITH THESE DAMN POSTS!No perks or addons bar extreme outliers like ultra rares would have made any difference almost whatsoever there.
Actually, while I can agree on the fact that the current objective in the game is flawed there are some perks that could've helped out his case other than being better at nurse.
1 : MYC would've allowed for faster downs and really allow him to snowball.
2 : Discordance can be used to track where multiple survivors are at if they do the same generator.
3 : PGTW could've been used to take a huge chunk of generator progress away from the generators which can be combined with MYC and even BBQ to get some real snowballing going on.
4 : Well, ruin sucks but that's also an option.
5 : Sloppy butcher can slow down healing, if you pair this up with either thanatophobia to further increase heal times or with nurses you can take advantage of long heal times especially as the nurse.
6 : New surveillance isn't half bad if you kick gens a lot.
7 : Deerstalker can allow you to slug survivors which slugging is a very powerful strategy if you do it right
Addons such as omega blinks can better provide map pressure as nurse, even on the wraith you can run things like speed and all seeing addons too. The truth is that a lot of the perks and addons in the game can greatly improve and even change the quality of your games, the issue is that neither side should need perks for a more enjoyable, less stressful game.@powerbats said:
At least you're not too blinded by biases to see that and yes changes do need to be made to satisfy both sides not one like some on here want to do. The new secondary objectives will go a long way towards that.Well if you look further back they're responding to the same core group with an agenda usually as evidenced by these ridiculous videos. They do sometimes bring it over to randoms who don't know any better and see the trolls agreeing with them or get baited into stuff.
I'll try to take more of a look when I get a chance, I don't really look at the forums all that much so it's pretty easy to miss most of the drama that goes on here.
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I'm all for people having their own opinions, I never called you toxic for having one, I'm calling senzu toxic for resorting to insults which by definition is toxic behavior. Personally I just want a more open discussion but hey, let's just ignore what my previous post said such as how I thought your opinion on the game was wrong and provided a reason why. You can take the time to acknowledge why you believe nurse needs a nerf before objectives need to be changed instead of rambling on your pointless talk. But hey, I guess we're both getting a laugh out of this, aren't we? I'm asking you to be objective and to step aside until you can think objectively, if you can make an actually valid point on this post instead of dodging the points I've made I'll shut up right now on this post. Better yet, instead of cluttering this post with our own argument I'll even invite you and senzu to discuss this elsewhere so that the main topic of this post can continue to be discussed.
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@powerbats said:
Oh good grief, the amount of whiny trolling here is unbelievable, you'll cherry pick only the videos that backup your argument.It's become obvious you're Tru fanboys now and anytime he struggles it's because killers are grossly underpowered. It's never the killer making mistakes or the survivors just played better and you ignore every video where he stomps people.
But then it's always the excuse of well the survivor were potatoes, not that the killer gasp just played better I mean because admitting that would admit your argument was bad.
I'll acknowledge the killer in the video did poorly and missed a bunch of blinks, though I guess I forgot to bring it up in my first post (oops). Tru3 is definitely not a prime example of an excellent killer by any means, there are better people who can be used for these examples. I still do think that objectives are something that should be changed to be more satisfying for both sides however.
@SenzuDuck said:
Yea, did you read what he said? Why wouldn't I be bothered about being called that
"Can you please stop hunting posts who are showing how busted survivors can be? U r a survivor main, you are supposed to hide and keep quite."
He's saying I shouldn't have an opinion on things because I'm a "survivor main" but apparently your issue is with me OMEGALUL
Too many 4Heads to comprehend.
Personally I haven't seen the other person's post as much, I only called you and vietfox out as I've seen both of you being more problematic in these posts from my experience as I've often held back from responding to posts on the forums. But hey, want to be toxic in these posts instead of being productive you can be my guest, I'm just pointing out you shouldn't care about being given some phony "killer" or "survivor" main title because it means nothing and is only a roadblock to real discussion.
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@SenzuDuck said:
@vampire_toothy said:
@Vietfox said:
No perks no addons against survivors with instalheals and yet he got 2K. Sounds like we should nerf the nurse first
Edit: in normal conditions a good nurse can get 4K in less than 4 minutes.@SenzuDuck said:
@DwightsLifeMatters said:
Vietfox said:No perks no addons against survivors with instalheals and yet he got 2K. Sounds like we should nerf the nurse first
Edit: in normal conditions a good nurse can get 4K in less than 4 minutes.Only 2 kills because this ace played like an idiot. Otherwise 1 kill at best.
Why do you guys do this
Whenever someone does well in a match it can't because they played well, it's because a survivor did poorly.
Dude got to rank 1 killer without addons or perks - killer is ez, you're all mad you can't reach rank 1 WITH addons and perks.
This is the pure definition of bias, step back a bit and think more about this @Vietfox .
The fact that you brought up that a Nurse receiving 2 kills when objectives are being done in 4 minutes (or less with toolboxes) shows you're biased. Yes, Nurse is strong but what's worse than Nurse is the fact that any person who plays optimally can complete all the generators in 4 minutes or less which in my opinion a game should never end in 5 minutes or less in the favor of the killer or the survivor in an average or even competitive-styled match. An ideal match in my books should last 7 minutes on average (there would be outlier cases with different playstyles and/or killers). What should be done first is we should see an objective change to allow for more fun objectives for survivors to interact with while waiting for the killer that can also take up more time without it just being M1 simulator, afterwords or even in the same update we can talk about nerfing Nurse or fixing the actual problem which is her addons. You need to think more objectively about the game because the problems with it isn't as black and white as you might think, there are multiple problems on both ends.Now for this part @SenzuDuck , you preach about rank like it ever even mattered in the first place, since when has rank meant anything? You're all talk but you can't even provide a proper reason in a discussion. I'd like to see you actually be productive in this post. Sure I can admit that it's incredibly easy to pip as a killer and as a survivor, I would know because before emblems came out I got to rank 1 as Freddy and post-emblems I got to rank 1 as perkless legion. Nearly every month I've managed to get to rank 1 as both killer and survivor but does that mean I'm a good player just because I can do that? Absolutely not because ranking up requires no skill, it only requires time and playing fairly, infact it's almost impossible to derank in a normal match. Rank has never and will never mean anything with how it currently works and how it has worked in the past. The fact you even think that rank matters in a discussion about objectives shows you're only trying to throw the discussion off.
Oh great, another 4Head,
I bring up rank because everyone and their mother says "shut up you don't agree with me so you're a survivor main". So i state I'm rank one every season as killer because you know, survivor mains do that.Nobody argues with me because they use their "you're a survivor main stop talking". Tell THOSE people to add something constructive to the conversation
and im the one trying to throw the discussion off? Completely ignoring the guy that says "he didn't get two kills because someone played badly".
I don't say killers only get 3 kills when they camp someone.
Cool, lets rack up the insults while we're at it when I call for you to only be more objective. Take note that I do not care for rank or what you main as because that means nothing and calling someone a "killer" or "survivor" main only is used to divide the community rather than to be productive. Who cares if someone calls you a survivor main, that shouldn't change how you word things because at the end of the day rank and what you main do not add anything to the discussion at all and instead derails the topic. I'll call a person biased but I'll never call them a survivor or killer main nowadays and in my eyes you're biased. I haven't ignored their post either, they stayed ontopic with the video which was that they said he got 2 kills in the match because the ace played poorly, that's not off topic as it related to the video in the first place. Simply calling me a 4head means you have nothing more to say which backs up my initial post, plain and simple.
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@Vietfox said:
No perks no addons against survivors with instalheals and yet he got 2K. Sounds like we should nerf the nurse first
Edit: in normal conditions a good nurse can get 4K in less than 4 minutes.@SenzuDuck said:
@DwightsLifeMatters said:
Vietfox said:No perks no addons against survivors with instalheals and yet he got 2K. Sounds like we should nerf the nurse first
Edit: in normal conditions a good nurse can get 4K in less than 4 minutes.Only 2 kills because this ace played like an idiot. Otherwise 1 kill at best.
Why do you guys do this
Whenever someone does well in a match it can't because they played well, it's because a survivor did poorly.
Dude got to rank 1 killer without addons or perks - killer is ez, you're all mad you can't reach rank 1 WITH addons and perks.
This is the pure definition of bias, step back a bit and think more about this @Vietfox .
The fact that you brought up that a Nurse receiving 2 kills when objectives are being done in 4 minutes (or less with toolboxes) shows you're biased. Yes, Nurse is strong but what's worse than Nurse is the fact that any person who plays optimally can complete all the generators in 4 minutes or less which in my opinion a game should never end in 5 minutes or less in the favor of the killer or the survivor in an average or even competitive-styled match. An ideal match in my books should last 7 minutes on average (there would be outlier cases with different playstyles and/or killers). What should be done first is we should see an objective change to allow for more fun objectives for survivors to interact with while waiting for the killer that can also take up more time without it just being M1 simulator, afterwords or even in the same update we can talk about nerfing Nurse or fixing the actual problem which is her addons. You need to think more objectively about the game because the problems with it isn't as black and white as you might think, there are multiple problems on both ends.Now for this part @SenzuDuck , you preach about rank like it ever even mattered in the first place, since when has rank meant anything? You're all talk but you can't even provide a proper reason in a discussion. I'd like to see you actually be productive in this post. Sure I can admit that it's incredibly easy to pip as a killer and as a survivor, I would know because before emblems came out I got to rank 1 as Freddy and post-emblems I got to rank 1 as perkless legion. Nearly every month I've managed to get to rank 1 as both killer and survivor but does that mean I'm a good player just because I can do that? Absolutely not because ranking up requires no skill, it only requires time and playing fairly, infact it's almost impossible to derank in a normal match. Rank has never and will never mean anything with how it currently works and how it has worked in the past. The fact you even think that rank matters in a discussion about objectives shows you're only trying to throw the discussion off.
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@Yamaoka said:
Personally I think Hillbilly is just easy mode in this game. He is ridiculously easy to play (by far easier than leatherface), has the most map pressure in the whole game, can instadown quickly, has a low penalty for bumping into obstacles, can somewhat counter small loops even by doing sharp turns during his sprint, moves at survivor speed even while revving his chainsaw and can go mach 1 during the chainsaw sprint. He is somewhat op but he´s never going to get nerfed because it´s one of the original killers. Even the devs said if you want to win just play Billy which makes him kind of boring in my opinion.Actually, in terms of difficulty to use, Leatherface is actually far easier to use but more difficult to win with against better players. Hillbilly provides a playstyle some players at least enjoy and it should be expected that some killers will be strong. Also, it's important to note that Hillbilly is not only one of the original killers but is also considered by many to be the most balanced killer in the game (some might argue that Huntress or Spirit are the most balanced, in which case Hillbilly is still just slightly better than them). While it's true that a good Hillbilly can counter smaller to medium-sized loops it requires a better understanding of the timing on your chainsaw and confidence in your ability to actually hit them with perfect timing which does in a way require skill, this is especially true when against actually smart players, though that is a bit of a rarity.
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@Blueberry said:
I don't think billy gets punished enough for misusing his chainsaw or if you outplay the chainsaw, there's almost no repercussions. I think the recovery for manually canceling the chainsaw should be longer. He has almost zero downsides.Hillbilly does have downsides, it's just that those downsides aren't really as major for experienced players. Things such as his chainsaw stun or even his extensive cooldown that doesn't allow you to interact with objects on the map and slows you down is infact a downside though of course anybody who is experienced at hillbilly isn't really going to get chainsaw stunned enough times to actually matter, if at all. Most killers generally have downsides and while hillbilly is probably one with some of the least, they do exist and should be taken advantage of.
To go better in-depth, Hillbilly has another weakness that killers like Nurse, Spirit, Hag and (ugh) Legion don't have - looping. Hillbilly can be looped like most of the cast of killers and because of this you can outplay his saw as you would outplay any other killer and from there you only need to worry about a smart billy who understands the timing of their saws at which point the complaint of a skilled hillbilly killing you is nullified as the same argument is used for Nurse.
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As far as actual buffs and reworks go, here is what I would mark down ;
1 : Legion (Complete rework from scratch) - Legion is fundamentally broken and making them more fun to play as and against should become the new priority as opposed to Freddy who does not even require a rework in the first place, as it stands it does not matter if legion is "strong" or "weak" if they ignore everything and make the game both boring and unfun for both sides.
2 : Leatherface (Major buffs or rework) - Without a doubt in my mind I can say that leatherface is infact the weakest killer to be released if you do not count legion's "intended" gameplay functions (which is not used). Unlike legion, leatherface does not require a rework but it can be nice if they ever made a more unique way to execute this killer.
3 : Pig (Moderate buffs and addon rework) - As it stands, pig is still not in a very fantastic spot and I find her to be lacking especially in addons related to the ambush. Her RBT's take up the most addons yet most of them make her already RNG power even more RNG than before, she needs more consistency to her RBT power and in return lose some addons for it so they can make more exciting ones regarding her ambush.
4 : Freddy (Moderate buffs, slight addon rework) - Freddy does not need a rework plain and simple, to say he does only takes away from the dev's ability to make more valuable changes to the game, time of which I feel will be very important when they get around to working on the dedicated servers and more. All Freddy needs to be good is 4 buffs and an addon rework to a select few addons. My ideas for instance are to make a weaker baseline class photo, increase movement speed when nobody is asleep (while someone transitions or is asleep that speed boost is lost), lose the ability to interact with everything except hooks while transitioning and make it so self-care doesn't wake you up. I'd argue you wouldn't even need all of these changes as even just 1 or 2 of them does the job pretty well.
5 : Trapper (QoL, slight buffs) - Trapper wastes too much time for a game based around fast gameplay. Just allow him to spawn with all of his traps and allow him to rearm unset traps. His bag addons can be adjusted to allow for some form of replacement cycle like the hag has for her traps or simply increase the number of traps he can have.
6 : Doctor (Rework) - Doctor is just annoying yet weak, annoyance is not something one should have when playing as or against the doctor, some people might find him fun as that's subjective though I think it's time to throw in the towel as a rework is the best way to give doctor the attention he needs.
7 : Wraith (Very slight buffs & QoL) - Wraith is in a very good spot after his addon rework took place, honestly all you really need to do with him is increase his base cloak movement speed and maybe some QoL changes.
8 : Nurse (Addon rework) - Nurse is in a tricky spot, but honestly the best hop of getting a change for nurse is to redo her addons which needs to be done anyways as her addons don't match the preferred addon rarity distribution.Pretty much every other killer is in a near perfect spot and only ever requires some slight changes to go with the updates whether it be strictly QoL, bugfixes or slight additions every here and there like adding or redoing some addons. Every other killer not mentioned in this post (Spirit, Huntress, Hillbilly, Hag, Clown, Myers) are doing very well while other killers like Wraith can be in a perfect spot with only slight changes which only has to do with some values.
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The problem I have with this self-care adjustment is the fact that it can stack with botany knowledge which allows you to heal at completely full speed and at tier 3, faster than a medkit on both yourself and others allowing for some very speedy self-cares. I would not be as terribly opposed to the change to self-care if they addressed the values botany knowledge would add onto it.
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@SenzuDuck said:
So let me get this straight.
You want totems to
- Not spawn near survivors
- Not spawn near buildings
- Not spawn near generators
So basically, lets limit where it can spawn and actually make them easier to find, good job guys, you really are trying to kill this game.
You guys all cry about totem spawns, stop running them? You get mad when a survivor with 500+ hours find them, what do you expect? You learn the spots and they become easier to find, no totem placement will be good enough for any of you.
This seems like a pretty biased way to look at this.
Personally I couldn't really care less about totems as they aren't necessary but the issue is that a spawnpoint is the first thing a survivor will ever see and that they will immediately either go for a generator or try to get themselves settled in a safer area like a structure, it makes no sense to have a perk found right out in the open without effort because it was placed where a survivor will commonly go.
If anything there are way more harmful things that can be done to the game than making a totem perk less miserable to run and more satisfying to use, some of those more harmful things infact already exist in the game. Personally I'd be satisfied when I actually have to put in a little effort to look for them rather than seeing it out in a completely open field like in disturbed ward as you have to keep in mind that this is an entire perkslot that gets wasted due to bad placements which is a big deal for most killers. Good totem spawns are not only a good goal to work towards but also achievable as even with the hours I have in this game I can struggle at times to find totems on Lery's and The Game due to totems being properly hidden.
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@Gardenia said:
Your definition of fun and skill is different from others. It does take skill to actually chain hit and down. It does take skill in general to utilize a killers power.And I'll repeat he is good for the health of this game because it shakes things up. Regardless your other points about the bugs I didn't mention the bugs because I agreed with them. So instead of thinking I'm here to antagonize you, because I have my opinion, contrary to yours .Acknowledge that people like them, he does need improvement but it's also on the part of Survivors not utilizing the counterplay available to him, and so what if you get a free first hit? If you see them coming run. They don't teleport so you're not oblivious to the terror radius.
Make no mistake, I do not believe you're here to antagonize my post and I can respect people having a different opinion as that's perfectly fine, it's just rather difficult to get the intended tone out of a typed message. The problem is that I just don't understand what people find fun about the legion. For instance I've noticed you have said that it takes skill to actually chain hit people but the problem is, what caused those survivors to be so close to each other that it allowed you to get those hits off? Did you yourself get those survivors stuck in one part of the map and get the chain hits off or was it that by luck those survivors happened to be in the same spot of the map and you took advantage of that? This is an aspect of the legion that you cannot control with skill which is the issue. To down a survivor, what did you do special that no other killer can do that required a skillful input? Did you just cheese chase mechanics and wait for the timer to go down, spam stab them or attempt to mindgame them at unsafe pallets? If it was that last option then any other killer can do that in the game.
The real question here is, what meaningful impact can you make on the game that makes it fun and exciting for everyone? For me when I use spirit for instance I feel I've accomplished my goal when I scare the survivors and mindgame them whether or not I actually win by the end of the game while with legion all it feels like I do is slow the game down and force survivors to go into a slow and boring m1 match where you hold down the mend key and with the upcoming potential buffs, healing too. The other issue is that not only by playing legion have you forced a boring game on the survivors, they will now force a boring game onto you by not healing and just doing the gens which is the only way to counter the legion, it essentially enforces an unhealthy playstyle on both sides and those are the issues I have with legion.
I've also noticed you brought up to get off gens earlier but the truth is that the first hit against legion does not matter as it's incredibly easy to achieve yet also not threatening at all. The real issue is when chase mechanics get cheesed for force a survivor to go down without any counterplay or you spam your power which is a waste of time more than anything.
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@Gardenia said:
I bring up skill a lot in this discussion because skill is very important in this game. While it's true that nurse is capable of ignoring everything in the game she requires a skilled player in order to break the game, it's also no basic excuse to use skill as a main argument because nothing ever should require no skill as everything every killer or survivor does should involve some form of skill with some form of counterplay.
You want to know why I bring up skill so much? Let me ask you, what type of skill does it take to use the legion and ignore all game mechanics as right now winning as legion is a matter of either using Frank's mixtape or whether or not survivors want to do gens. You think it's fun when there is nothing a survivor can ever do to avoid getting hit the first time and be totally unable to break chase? Better yet, do you think it's fun that legion when played the way they're intended to play is awful and can't even catch survivors if they attempt to chainhit anybody who isn't super close? When I think of fun, I think of outplaying my opponents and knowing that every action I've done in a game has warranted me a win because I outplayed them if I'm the killer and one thing I've gotten from playing nearly nonstop legion is that the interaction between a legion and survivor is near minimal and never requires any thought whatsoever with the exception of "well, might as well not go after that guy because they're too far". Now, I don't want this to look like I'm just bashing your opinion but I find it horrible to throw skill out of the game in the way that legion does as the killer in the long run will only produce boring gameplay that nobody will like, plus there comes a certain point of which I have to ask what's even fun about playing legion anyways. I find legion boring because not only do they not require any thought to play but they also have no learning curve unlike my favorite killer (Spirit) who you can only get better at with more skill and knowledge of the game. I had legion figured out day one and by day two I stopped playing legion as intended and instead through the only viable way to use legion which only turns into frustration for both sides.Ontop of my points for why I think legion is poor for the health of the game, I also brought up issues with this patch such as bugs which I have not seen you acknowledge yet.
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@Theluckyboi said:
@vampire_toothy said:
@Theluckyboi said:
Title, why is Cannibal usually ranked so low in tier lists? he seems pretty good to me even without add-ons.-1 hit down chainsaw
-Better movility than hillbilly
-Great at basement buildsHe is only bad on specific maps like lery´s and coldwind farm.
Personally, I consider leatherface to be the second worst killer in the game above the legion but keep in mind before we continue that just because leatherface is ranked in a very low position does not mean you can't win with him as I do also believe all killers are capable of winning against most survivors as of the current balance (granted, that is not an excuse not to slightly buff some of them).
The big thing to keep in mind is that instadowns do not mean a killer is good and we can see this very clearly with what is considered to be the top 5 killers which is the following ; Nurse, Hillbilly, Spirit, Huntress, Hag. Take notice that out of these 5 killers, only one of them has the capability of having a direct instadown because there are many factors to consider when determining the strength of a killer. For instance, out of these 5, 3 of them have an effective way to get around the map fast and 1 of the 5 killers has heavy snowballing potential while another also has the ability to protect the entire map.
What does Bubba have? He can occasionally use his chainsaw but lacks snowball potential, mobility and unfortunately there isn't really much learning to him at all. Poor Bubba can only be better at being a base killer but there is just simply no way to be better with his power on the other hand because any moderately serious player will not fall for your rev trick at pallets and is as loopable as any other killer while also having his power denied by windows which are numerous on any map except for maybe the game. Should that discourage you from using them? Absolutely not, don't let some tierlist change your mind on whether or not you should use a killer, if you find them fun and enjoy their gameplay then keep using them and maybe one of these days if the killer gets a buff you'll do even better with them.
Do you really think he is below freddy? why?
his power is not a liability, at all, if you know how to use him and you get just the right might you can make him lethal.
i think tierlists are bullshit, they should not affect your opinion of the game.
Keep in mind, just because I think some killers are better does not mean they're bad. Now, I have some basic reasoning for why I believe Freddy is better and that just comes down to understanding how both powers work. With Freddy for instance if you get the timings down for his transition you can perform a mindgame at most basic loops and get a good first hit usually which is already beneficial as you manage to get closer to survivors than you would as leatherface due to the difference in terror radius (Freddy has 24 meters vs Leatherface's 32 meters). The other thing is the size of the character, Freddy is much lower than Leatherface in terms of height meaning that you're able to mindgame more loops you previously couldn't with a taller character like Trapper, Myers or the guy we're talking about right now, Bubba. Freddy can also directly slow the game down with his power and people who can keep multiple people asleep can slow the game down very well, not to forget to mention his unmatched endgame potential. Leatherface can neither slow the game down (unless he has chain addons), have as many mindgames or get the ability to know exactly what survivors are doing at any given time like in the case of Freddy. That being said, I believe certain addons and maps change how strong Leatherface and Freddy are but in general there are more nasty things you can do with Freddy than you can do with Leatherface. Again, it doesn't mean you can't do well with this killers as it is certainly possible if you want to put the time into them.
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@Theluckyboi said:
Title, why is Cannibal usually ranked so low in tier lists? he seems pretty good to me even without add-ons.-1 hit down chainsaw
-Better movility than hillbilly
-Great at basement buildsHe is only bad on specific maps like lery´s and coldwind farm.
Personally, I consider leatherface to be the second worst killer in the game above the legion but keep in mind before we continue that just because leatherface is ranked in a very low position does not mean you can't win with him as I do also believe all killers are capable of winning against most survivors as of the current balance (granted, that is not an excuse not to slightly buff some of them).
The big thing to keep in mind is that instadowns do not mean a killer is good and we can see this very clearly with what is considered to be the top 5 killers which is the following ; Nurse, Hillbilly, Spirit, Huntress, Hag. Take notice that out of these 5 killers, only one of them has the capability of having a direct instadown because there are many factors to consider when determining the strength of a killer. For instance, out of these 5, 3 of them have an effective way to get around the map fast and 1 of the 5 killers has heavy snowballing potential while another also has the ability to protect the entire map.
What does Bubba have? He can occasionally use his chainsaw but lacks snowball potential, mobility and unfortunately there isn't really much learning to him at all. Poor Bubba can only be better at being a base killer but there is just simply no way to be better with his power on the other hand because any moderately serious player will not fall for your rev trick at pallets and is as loopable as any other killer while also having his power denied by windows which are numerous on any map except for maybe the game. Should that discourage you from using them? Absolutely not, don't let some tierlist change your mind on whether or not you should use a killer, if you find them fun and enjoy their gameplay then keep using them and maybe one of these days if the killer gets a buff you'll do even better with them.
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@BeanieEnthusiast said:
No I think leatherface does need a little buff actually. He’s much weaker than Freddy. In regards to the other person, just because one person says that ‘I’m a viewer’ doesn’t negate every other ‘viewer’ in there. I am capable of reading, but are you capable of understanding or thinking outside the box? Doesn’t look like it.
Except I also know as a matter of fact that there are plenty of people like me who do not type much either. Sometimes all people want to do is sit down, watch a video or a stream and relax, nothing more and nothing less.That being said, if you're capable of thinking it doesn't take a genius to know that you should seriously consider looking into changing your passwords and it isn't entirely unlikely you misclicked or had bad memory either. Trust me, the possibility of a misclick isn't impossible either because Twitch recommends channels and I've nearly accidentally clicked "follow" on channels I've never heard of because the button is right there when you scroll over the streamer's name. I hope you also realize this just derails the purpose of the post too and that's not to bash on anybody with the points above either.
Now, do we want to actually get back into the discussion? Fun is subjective so I don't think anybody can really say something is fun as a fact as everyone has their own version of it. The issue I think we should look at is for instance the issue I have with legion is that he's lackluster in some areas and brokenly strong in others in a way where even with that out of the way he's just not satisfying to play in my opinion. My issue with legion for instance is that his power lacks counterplay but also is in a state where it's incredibly easy for the game to fly by incredibly fast because legion encourages "gen rush" and by this I mean just not healing and using resilience on generators pretty much. He's essentially a nightmare to balance because he's either too weak or too strong by this design. Honestly, I'm not even sure if I even have any good ideas to buff the legion appropriately either because of this reason.
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I would disagree with such a change being part of her base kit. I would not mind if they reworked the father's glasses addon to show auras instead of blood but to allow her to see auras as part of her base kit is not only unnecessary but it would also be too strong. It would be unnecessary as you can take the time to figure out where people are before using your power and would take away from the mindgame aspect of her power, she really doesn't need anything more to it other than changing some addons.
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@Vortexas said:
@vampire_toothy said:
@Vortexas said:
@iTz_KilLaZ_x said:
look I get you guys need money to continue developing and stuff. But this is an event for the community and you only give us 3 items and we are done? You guys just said on stream it’s a one and done thing. Oh but you can give us $ for the skins. I expect very good things to come in the future for this game or else I won’t be buying any skinsIt's almost like Behavior is a business that runs for profit, instead of your personal entertainment alone.
While I do agree entertainment is an important factor of a gaming company, there isn't anything wrong with gaining profit for your product. Both should be important factors with entertainment taking priority while ensuring the game can sustain itself and its employees that allow for the game to be worked on.
Personally in my opinion I can understand the decision here, I would've liked to have been able to get at least two cosmetics out of the event as otherwise it's going to be very difficult for me to pick between some of these skins but realistically speaking we do at least get to pick the character we get the cosmetics for and we get 3 pieces rather than 1 per character for 2 characters. With that being said, I think we should be happy that we are at least getting a full outfit for the character of our choice. With that being said, I have no clue how much the company is already making off of skins or DLC's, the costs of the game but I would imagine they have a decently justified reason to not just allow us to grind every single skin in the game. I think though that overall this is an event with good intention that has just been misinterpreted.
You are getting 3 individual cosmetics free. Which is far more free Cosmetics than they have EVER given out in any other event.
I'm not arguing that here, infact my post goes over how I'm fine with how the event will go. I also pointed out what you said here in my post already.
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@Vortexas said:
@iTz_KilLaZ_x said:
look I get you guys need money to continue developing and stuff. But this is an event for the community and you only give us 3 items and we are done? You guys just said on stream it’s a one and done thing. Oh but you can give us $ for the skins. I expect very good things to come in the future for this game or else I won’t be buying any skinsIt's almost like Behavior is a business that runs for profit, instead of your personal entertainment alone.
While I do agree entertainment is an important factor of a gaming company, there isn't anything wrong with gaining profit for your product. Both should be important factors with entertainment taking priority while ensuring the game can sustain itself and its employees that allow for the game to be worked on.
Personally in my opinion I can understand the decision here, I would've liked to have been able to get at least two cosmetics out of the event as otherwise it's going to be very difficult for me to pick between some of these skins but realistically speaking we do at least get to pick the character we get the cosmetics for and we get 3 pieces rather than 1 per character for 2 characters. With that being said, I think we should be happy that we are at least getting a full outfit for the character of our choice. With that being said, I have no clue how much the company is already making off of skins or DLC's, the costs of the game but I would imagine they have a decently justified reason to not just allow us to grind every single skin in the game. I think though that overall this is an event with good intention that has just been misinterpreted.
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@Radiant said:
Cool down people.
A bit out of topic here.Cuddling killers is making survivors stronger.
While killers are provided with more and more superpowers, survivors are being taken away most of the time-losing things: pallets, infinites, faster pickup animation, stamina not recovery in chases - not to mention broken hatchets, vaults and hook vacuum still there.The result is that survivors are adapting becoming stronger and stronger, while killers are relying more and more on perks and addons, to the point that is impossible to find a decent Trapper anymore and even good Billys and Nurses are 1/10 the number they used to be.
This is a fact that don't make any of the two sides happy.
Maps like the groaning storehouse were in bad need of fixes because they had vaults that were simply horrible and the storehouse infact still has a chance to spawn in the good window. Keep in mind that these map fixes came with the nerf to bloodlust as most of the broken loops in the game have been getting patched up and therefor bloodlust has nearly no purpose left and eventually should be entirely removed. It seems to me that you just like to think about the changes to survivor rather than accounting for what changes occurred to both sides of the spectrum here. Fixing up the maps was actually the best choice the devs could've made and no single building should ever guarantee everyone who uses it a 3 minute chase. Instead of getting upset that previously broken maps are being fixed you should instead take the opportunity to learn how to properly use jungle gyms or at the very least attempt to suggest better ways to fix horribly broken maps. I think the word "infinites" says enough as to why they got fixed, you even called it that yourself.
Faster pickup animation? Alright that was an unneeded change especially with the fact that lightborn exists.
Pallets? The vacuums needed to be removed as it was only a temporary fix to players getting stuck inside the pallet, with that bug being gone it means the pallet vacuum should be too.
Stamina not recovering in chases? I honestly don't get how you're still complaining about this, I mean yes I think only sprint burst should've been touched but this is an older but logical change, whenever I play survivor I notice no difference in how well I was able to play now and before. You've even forgotten to account for the slight buff exhaustion received as it automatically recovers when you go on the hook to help counteract camping.
Broken hatchets? I would've actually been fine with the new hatchet hitboxes as they would've been more fair and realistic, the problem was that survivor hitboxes didn't change with them so the hatchets actually ended up going through the survivors because of this even if you had an accurate shot that should've injured the survivor. I'm all on board with better hatchet hitboxes but only if the other hitboxes get fixed too.
Hook vacuum? As I've said before, I'm fine with all vacuums being gone, keep in mind though that your pallet vacuum did at least come with the removal of pickup vacuums. Realistically speaking though, it's hard to fine a reason to complain about this because it's so minor and the removal of it would only have a very minimal impact on the game.But what I find really funny is the fact that you say that survivors are adapting while killers are becoming more reliant on their perks when the reality is that you complaining right here about all of this shows you're not adapting to the changes but instead would rather complain about very valid changes and have only pointed out a few pointless changes like faster pickups or for other things you lack the full context of the changes. One big flaw I see in your argument here is the fact that you purposely only attempt to call out the changes made to killers but you do not even begin to acknowledge the changes survivors have received to compensate for such changes, infact most of your posts seemingly are only ever made to complain about killers and that's not to attack your perspective but instead to point out your heavy bias against killers. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though, how about you provide examples of what you would do to better the game?
Now, there are a few other things I would like to point out. Yes I agree there are broken addons on this game and for both sides, though if I'm not mistaken a certain developer brought up that they want to look at and revamp all the survivor addons and take a look at currently worthless items. Examples of addons I find to be broken for example would include iridescent heads, insta healers, 5 blink nurse or maximum distance nurse just to name a few, so there are addons that need to be looked at but for both ends rather than being so quick to just judge one side. The other broken addons survivors had like BNP and insta blinds were removed and therefor they aren't listed on here, not to say that I don't think they need a slight buff or a rarity drop. What I find funny though is that you say killers rely on their perks and addons but as an example I usually run spirit without addons and have infact even taken a step away from the majority of the meta and I've seen many other killers do so too and do just fine. The bigger problem is the ranking system which has made it easier for people to pip and doesn't do a great job at determining skill as much as it determines how fairly you played instead, hence to why you might not be seeing good trappers as often anymore.
@Radiant said:
Your salt is badly placed...Try not to be fanboys and you will see that the constant rant vs surv will be endless if they keep tuning killers up.
Have you noticed that 80% of surv items and addons are useless? Maps? Keys? Increase luck? 1 additional box? Rly?
Selfcare and DS will be reworked heavily and killers will still complain cuz they will not get 4k every match anyway.
And surv will get better and better because, if you cant rely on perks you get very good at evading, being chased, confuse the killer.
Well, it looks like I've already brought up the items. I do think the game needs more offerings but that's unrelated to the topic here nor is that even related to the strength of a killer vs a survivor.
DS? That perk can burn, though I'm fine with selfcare remaining the same as it doesn't need to be touched.
I find it silly however about how many times I see the "killers always want 4k's" argument. I could care less about kills as I prefer to play the game for fun and only generally get upset at bad maps or terrible teammates, Infact once I reach the red ranks I usually just let the last two people live.My main point with all of this is that you have your head in the wrong place on this and you seemingly only want to attack killers every chance you get, the game has come a long way since release but obviously the divide between killer and survivor has not. How about you provide actually valid examples of what you would do to improve the game and explain in-depth why you think they would work.
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Are there any plans to expand on the lore of older characters? Currently the newer characters for this year have long and interesting backstories and even explain Kate attempting to attack the entity while older characters simply just vanished. The main reason I ask this is because I want to know if any other characters whether a survivor or a killer attempted to retaliate against the entity before being sucked into its realm.
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@Tizzle said:
@vampire_toothy said:
This doesn't look like the mid-chapter patch, I think this is just the PTB for the event they put up that appears as something that will occur on the 19th of this month. It's way too soon for this to be the mid-chapter patch which would actually contain the rest of the changes I would imagine. Basically this looks like an update with changes they finished early with the event content being readily available when the update rolls out from what I can tell. I could be wrong as I have no way of verifying this but it's just simply too soon for this to be the mid chapter patch as we are supposed to get major updates roughly every 6 weeks and it's only been a little more than 2 weeks since shattered bloodlines got released.It's titled Mid Chapter 2.3 test build.
Huh?
I was originally going to edit my comment to correct myself, mistakes happen and so I misread the title so that's my bad there.
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Edit : I misread the title of the update post, please disregard what I said here.
This doesn't look like the mid-chapter patch, I think this is just the PTB for the event they put up that appears as something that will occur on the 19th of this month. It's way too soon for this to be the mid-chapter patch which would actually contain the rest of the changes I would imagine. Basically this looks like an update with changes they finished early with the event content being readily available when the update rolls out from what I can tell. I could be wrong as I have no way of verifying this but it's just simply too soon for this to be the mid chapter patch as we are supposed to get major updates roughly every 6 weeks and it's only been a little more than 2 weeks since shattered bloodlines got released.
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Monstrous Shrine
When hooking a victim in the basement, the following effects are applied;
3/6/9 % faster entity progression
*Get rid of increased escape penalty
Hooked victims are inflicted with broken for 15/30/45 seconds and additionally suffer from considerably decreased action speed for 20/40/60 seconds.(Perhaps this should translate to 25% reduced action speed?)
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Being the obsession should come with risks that you should prepare yourself for. Currently rancor is the only obsession perk that puts the obsession in real danger rather than being passive to the obsession or putting your team in danger after being tunneled to death and even then this perk could potentially encourage passive behavior until the end. Keep in mind that rancor gives the obsession (you) 5/4/3 seconds depending on the tier to see where the killer is heading, use that information to your advantage and avoid the killer. Keep in mind that rancor only applies to one person per game unlike devour hope which can apply to everyone and unlike any insta downing perk or power ever made in existence (with the exception of MYC which applies to one person at a time but even that has the potential to activate on different survivors at some point in the match). Keep in mind that rancor can be made entirely useless if you die early on or by simply knowing when to hide and where. If you're the obsession as often as you say you are you should consider getting rid of DS and instead get a perk that will be more beneficial to you throughout your match (For instance lithe, dance with me, iron will and lightweight makes a pretty solid combination just as an example here). If you're not running DS, object of obsession or sole survivor and you're the obsession this often then I would honestly recommend playing stealthy if you're that unlucky.
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@Bug_Reporter said:
I read everything and wanted to talk a bit about the differences between Spirit and Hillbilly...
At the moment The Spirit has the SAME animation for stading still AND for Phasing and also doesnt give any warning when she is phasing within the terror radius, what does that mean? It means that she is UNLOOPABLE, Hillbilly has several maps where he cant use his Chainsaw to cross the map, maps with too many obstacles (Including the new map) are a pain for him, not only that but there are also A LOT of loops on several maps that he cant counter by any means unless he is using good charge speed addons.
What happens when u try to loop the spirit (talking about someone who knows how to play, just as much a good HB)? Well, u have 3 options, stay at the other side of the loop and get hurt/downed, screw up and fall for the Fake Phase (will go into that soon) or run away from the loop (best strategy), but if u run away u are risking yourself because the spirit can catch u really fast if u dont find a window or pallet (u could also try to run away then come back but thats very risky too).
The Spirit is also able to run across the map much like HB, the difference is that u need addons for doing that, BUT u are not limited for specific maps or areas like hillbilly who cant chainsaw between trees and a lot of rocks in front of him.
There are many ways and strategies that u should apply while playing the Spirit, just as the other killers she is unique and has her only play style, but the most CRUCIAL one is to Fake a Phase. As said before the Phase Walk animation is the same as standing still (if that changes she will go down a lot of killer tiers and become one of the weakest probably), this is the ultimate Mind Game.
Performing a Fake Phase is very simple, what comes before and after that is the skillful part of her gameplay, once u get to a loop (at any moment, doesnt matter if u have or not a cooldown on the Phase Walk), take control of the pallet by going on top of it or on the other side if it was dropped and then stand still watching what the survivor gonna do.
If he falls for the Fake Phase by walking towards your "husk" (which is actually yourself), just turn the camera and hit them.
If the survivor stay at the other side, use the true Phase Walk and catch them.
If they try to run away from the loop u should pay attention to where they are going and then perform a true Phase Walk or just go towards them by walking, MOST of the time they will run in a straight line aiming for the next loop, pallet or window while u are "blind" (which again isnt the case, u saw they running away and only after that u used the Phase Walk), on most situations like this u will be able to catch them before they get to their destination.
This was the Fake Phase guide for the HUGE majority that i noticed who didnt know how to use that strategy and still complain about how weak she is. As i said before this is just one of the strategies applied while playing as the Spirit, but since this is the most important and is also teachable (yes u cant teach someone to GIT GUD at tracking survivors, they have to learn that by themselves after several matches), i decided to describe how to do it.
Great, this is exactly the type of post that I would have much rather seen, thank you.
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@Bug_Reporter said:
Hello complaining ppl of the forum, while i play the lobby simulator that we all love (DbD), i came here to tell u some stuff regarding the new killer and how devs do changes on her...Devs. who aim for BALANCE will look into numbers instead of how many tears ppl can drop on the "Feedback" section, as stated in another post, they will look the analytics about the new killer during its first weeks after release, by knowing that, we (the community) can change those numbers by playing with and against The Spirit.
If she gets a high average kill ratio in her overall matches she will be considered balanced or too strong, if she gets a low kill ratio, the she will probably receive a buff or change, so im here to bring u a suggestion way better than crying on the forums...
If u think that The Spirit is somewhat underpowered all u have to do is keep escaping all matches against her or losing all matches while using her.
However, im also here to warn all of u UNSKILLED NOOBS that u will have to work really hard for that, i'll be playing her every single day in every single match and i can asure u that I WILL be getting 3-4 kills every time, she is better than Hillbilly and is almost a second Nurse, i'll do my best to inflate those numbers as a proof of how good she is on SKILLFUL HANDS, if u dont play and LOSE enough matches, the average win rate will grow higher every day and she will never gets the unecessary buffs that are being asked around the forums.
Buffs are always good for the killers and she could really use some of the suggested ones, but she is fine as she is and buffing her just because players dont know how to play shouldnt be a thing.
Not entirely sure if this is a bait post or not, but regardless I do hope you take the time to go over my entire response here as it seems as if the history of this game seems to go entirely against what you're saying.
If you're looking to make a point, the wording presented here is by no means a way of doing so at all. With that being said, any killer can be good in the right hands but it doesn't necessarily mean they will always perform as well as other killers. Keep in mind that you aren't a "noob" just because you can't use the spirit either, she has (in my opinion) the highest skillcap of any killer in the game because there is simply just way too much to learn about this killer to really say if she's too weak or too strong. That doesn't mean that people can't make suggestions however, they don't need to accept the feedback right away but people at any point and time can put up suggestions as they please, suggestions of which were made after having first impressions of the killer.
Just some advice as well, but to anybody that looks at this post they aren't going to see this as your attempt to inflate the kill ratio of this killer but rather an attempt to inflate your ego. I would recommend that rather than trying to insult everybody who thinks the killer is weak (which I disagree with) try to provide examples of how this killer is strong and provide tips to those that struggle to use her. I'm also pretty sure that the changes they make to certain killers is dependent on both the numbers and the feedback as well, the only difference here is that they're trying to prevent another Freddy situation where they nerf/buff the killer to unnecessary levels within a week.
As for what I think of the killer myself? I disagree when someone says she's weak but I also disagree when people say she can be the second best killer and this simply just comes down to the drawbacks provided by the top tier killers. I'm not going to include Nurse in this example but let's compare spirit to the hillbilly.
Assume you have both killers in the hands of players that know how to use them very well, hillbilly moves at 230% speed when his power is in use or otherwise 9.2m/s for as long as he would like as long as an object doesn't threaten the ability to do so, hillbilly can see survivors, instadowns survivors he hits with his chainsaw, break pallets instantly, threaten survivors to either drop the pallet or die, use his chainsaw whenever he wants with only a cooldown lasting a couple of seconds (some addons can make this cooldown nearly non-existent), even downing people at long loops if you can use him really well and this comes with the drawbacks of being stunned for hitting an object and slow steering with the chainsaw. For the spirit (going off of how she will be after the changes announced are made), when her power is in use she moves at 176% speed or otherwise 7.04m/s for a limited amount of time, can move however she likes, leaves behind a husk which can block paths off for survivors (can be destroyed with flashlights), temporary movement speed increase for uncloaking (can be made longer with addons), turns invisible (which she can attack out of right away with a longer lunge) and her passive occasionally throws people off with different visuals and sounds (vaulting, regular movement) but in return has delayed scratches, has a large chargeup for her power of which she is stunned in place (necessary but too long IMO), won't be able to see blood at without an UR addon, cannot see survivors and has 110% movement speed outside of her power with no capability to instadown with her base kit (not needed at all, this is just a comparison between her and the hillbilly). Keep in mind that hillbilly has addons to increase steering, both have addons to increase movement speed, charge time, decrease cooldown (though hillbilly's is much more significant) but hillbilly also comes with game changing addons such as the speed limiter (not good, but unique), chain addons (which can inflict mangled, action speed reduction or both) and sound. Keep in mind that aura-reading perks are also no good on her while her power is in use unlike the hillbilly who can see aura's when his power is in use. Hell, certain perks on Freddy that would be considered an absolutely terrible idea on their own could still work really well on him if you made a setup for it.Now, you can argue that both of these killers are totally different and that's true as they have their own way of winning, but I think the problem people are seeing is that the spirit just simply has too many drawbacks to simply be of the level of hillbilly or nurse, though I do think she might have a shot of maybe competing with huntress or the hag depending on how these changes will do but again it's really just way too early to say where she truthfully belongs considering her skillcap as her power really isn't that straightforward to master or use relatively well unlike the clown for instance. With all that being said, there is only one guarantee that can be made - spirit will be a good killer in the right hands just as it's the case for any other killer and for that reason numbers alone aren't the only thing that determine how good or bad something is, it has to be a combination of feedback and numbers. Infact, let's take a look at the killrates of each killer since the pig was released (not sure how old this is, but I doubt it has changed much)
With what you're saying if we're looking for the stats in the high ranks, we should've seen buffs to myers, doctor, leatherface and maybe even the pig before we even started to see buffs to trapper and the hag, infact this would've meant we should've seen buffs to the wraith and freddy (which we are seeing buffs for, which the devs have been doing a great job in these changes). But instead we ended up with changes to Trapper, Hag and now the Wraith first. This is because although good players can make good use out of these killers, it's generally agreed their powers were far too easy to counter when paired with good players going against them and that there were obvious glaring problems with them with solutions already in mind that most people can agree with. Infact if you look at the huntress there's a pretty high escape rate for her yet the majority believes she's strong and infact received a nerf to her addons which some could agree were way too powerful. This means that it was a combination of both statistics and feedback, not just statistics alone because any killer can do well in the right hands in the right matches.With that being said, I can agree that the spirit is a good killer so far but I disagree with the statements you've made and everything I've said above is why that's the case. You also do not need to educate people about a post that can be clearly seen in the PTB subforum. Plus, they're just not intending on making any major changes to her based off of the feedback just yet, not that they won't be listening to feedback at all as otherwise, what's even the point of a feedback subforum and suggestion subforum or even these forums in general? Feedback, suggestions and general discussions. We're seeing these great and unique changes to the game thanks to feedback and the devs making the changes based off of the feedback, it's also why clown received a slight buff before his release.
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Personally I'm hoping the killer will be a lower-end high tier killer, so better than clown. Odds are though we will end up with something equal to the clown which I'm also fine with. As long as it's original I'm happy as it's more content to mess around with regardless.