vampire_toothy
vampire_toothy
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As someone who started playing at around June 2017, I've seen a lot of changes to the game which have been overwhelmingly positive. The developers have been doing a good job at improving the game, however there are still other issues in the game that should be addressed to continue improving it for both sides.
BHVR has made it clear, especially on their 3rd year anniversary stream that from the moment they released DbD it also became our game meaning that it would be foolish to not continue giving them feedback on how to improve it.
That being said, the game still has problems that need to be addressed and you can't really blame people for giving their feedback when it's actively encouraged.
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@[Deleted User] said:
The objectives aren’t the problem, it’s the killers playing this game and how they currently treat the objectives.
I’m oversimplifying but most killers don’t treat gens as an objective that needs protecting, and leave high pressure by the way side. They’re too focused on every chase must end in a down, and there’s no focus on where/how far that chase is taking you, just maim and hook.
I have to heavily disagree with this. Some killers (Nurse, Billy, Spirit, Hag & Huntress) can actually pressure the game because they have a real power that is threatening.
Against any other killer though, competent survivors do not care about healing and will only do generators until they can activate adrenaline. Considering that, any killer that I didn't mention above will heavily struggle with applying pressure to the game especially if you pair that up with a bad map like Haddonfield, Ormond, Disturbed Ward or the Coldwind maps which have either a massive amount of safe pallets or a very strong structure loop that has no counterplay. Other maps like Mother's Dwelling are so large that it's borderline impossible to properly pressure the generators without any power that grants mobility.
But honestly though, the biggest problem in that case is probably map design considering what I said above.
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I use to see them a lot as killer, but since this nerf, no one is playing legion, have they gone too far?
I personally still enjoy playing Legion, however from what I've seen a lot of people don't enjoy playing as Legion as much anymore because the movement speed in the frenzy is slower along with the vaulting speeds so it feels less like a frenzy to them. In addition to this if people never heal, people feel like they lose the point of having the power in the first place.
That being said, although they need some buffs I still find them very fun to play.
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Like really? why would one of the OP, instant down killer need ruin, yet every billy i counter, they use it, is it really needed? for billy?
@Mushwin said:
if gen rush then you need to be a better killer, it happens to me and i need to get better, there are many perks for such, the legion has a great one, but it happens,noed i sbettern then ruin and so many killers then complain it's easily found then why run it?
Not everyone can play Billy very well and feel as if their games can still go fast, therefor they run ruin even if people don't see the point in it. I should also point out that although Billy is strong, he is not overpowered by any means unless you run instasaw.
Also, that...that's not what gen rushing even is. Legion's perk "discordance" does not counter genrushing because survivors are already making a mistake and are being less efficient if multiple survivors are on a single generator.
Gen rushing is when each survivor is on a separate generator and ignores every single possible interaction with the exception of generators, unhooking people and the exit gates. Meaning that they ignore healing, chests & totems while only doing generators, this means that they also might be running perks like resilience and adrenaline or may be using any toolbox to help them with exactly that. When such a strategy is used by a competent team it's borderline impossible to win unless you're running Nurse, Spirit, Billy, Hag or maybe Huntress (this one depends on the map).
You even suggested that people run NOED which is a very unhealthy perk for the game because it rewards failure and is a perk survivors often get frustrated with when they go against it. Infact it makes even less sense to run NOED on billy.
tl;dr - People can run whatever they want even if you don't like it, perks exist to be used. Your suggested perks to help deal with genrushing is also incorrect.
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I'm going to do one killer perk & one survivor perk, though the first one isn't exactly a small buff.
Thanatophobia - Overhaul this perk so it only applies to generator progress speed, this should eliminate further perk stacking with coulrophobia & sloppy butcher.
But in return, for every survivor injured the speed of which generators are repaired is slowed down by 8.25% up to a maximum of 33% in total.
This change would provide Thanatophobia with a buff that would encourage healing which would be more efficient by 7 seconds and botany knowledge would be a perfect counter as you heal 33% faster with that perk.
Up The Ante - I cannot remember the last time someone unironically used this perk.
Make it so it has synergy with ace in the hole by allowing it so each time this perk is used, an additional chest spawns in the trial.
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Who said anything about being a survivor? 😀
I'll just be an honorary 5th member of the legion!
What? It doesn't work like that?
Well the answer is no, I'd be dead on arrival.
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@BACKSTABBER said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/512429#Comment_512429
Thanks for replying
Devs can try their best but if they are a tiny group (as stated sometimes), if they don't play much DBD as gamers, if they are perhaps not THAT much talented, if they bring up nerfs and buffs none the fuk asked for... then something tells me devs are not doing "their best"
Well, I don't think it's fair to say that they aren't doing their best. Afterall their job is to make the game, not master every aspect of it. If we look at Spirit for instance, she started off as an average killer but with some changes the developers made thanks to feedback she turned into an amazing killer.
Plus that doesn't address the second point, which is that if the developers took this idea into account then survivors would be able to deny strong killers from being released.
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The problem with this suggestion is that it would accomplish nothing for a two reasons ;
- The devs clearly put a lot of time and effort into making each update we get. Not everything they make is going to be perfect as I'd rather have flawed content than no content at all as at least it can get fixed later on.
- Nothing would ever get released if the community had the power to vote against a killer. Sure we could prevent a weak killer from being released with such an idea but what's going to stop survivors from preventing a strong killer from being released?
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@Mochan said:
Who is ScottJund, and basically you want a group of random people to enjoy all the perks of being the Devs, without actually needing to go through all the hardwork required of being a Dev.
Basically, you want to call the shots and then make the Devs do your work for you.
How about NO.
if ScottJund wants to make the perfect hide and seek killer game, he should make his own game.
@Mochan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/512297#Comment_512297
Just because he livestreams DBD doesn't make him an important person. I have always found it funny how today's generation of gamers idolize streamers but in my book he is a nobody in terms of DBD game development.
"a few community members like the Fog Whisperers or something that could have direct contact with the people that do develop the game and tell them whether or not they like their ideas and if it is something they think the DbD community would want to have so we don't have situations like with Ghost Face and his perks being so garbage."Sounds like telling the devs what they can and can't do.
He does not deserve to advise the DBD team on what they can and can't do.
And no, I don't watch videos like that, sorry.
Call me ignorant, but my point is the Devs need him to tell them what to do as much as they need any of us here on the forums to tell them what to do. He isn't special, if he wants to give the Devs a piece of his mind, he can post in the Wishlist and Balance forums just like everyone else.
@Mochan sorry if this comes off as rude as there isn't really any better way to word this, but the post is literally about the video so if you refuse to watch it then what's even the point of responding to this? It's like pretending to be a surgeon without having any experience or even basic knowledge of it whatsoever. It's also like pretending to be a critic of a movie or a book you never read, or pretending to know the answers to real world problems without any experience or knowledge in any of those fields either.
Second of all, Scott doesn't even support the idea of the game being a hide and seek game whatsoever, he actually favors the game being more chase orientated. The other thing to keep in mind is that just because someone makes a suggestion people like does not mean they idolize the person who made the idea, they just agree with it. Literally nobody is explicitly saying he is more or less important, just that he has an idea they agree with.
Infact, in the video he explicitly states that he isn't even throwing himself into the ring and that his video is purely a suggestion meaning that your first comment doesn't even make any sense. The suggestion he made is actually something a number of other games do to know what will excite their players and deliver what they want at the same time.
Literally what you're saying is that people should not try to make suggestions and that if they do then it should only be on one of the many platforms there are out there. Mind you that M'cote has even said himself on the year 3 stream and on many other occasions that DbD stopped being just their game from the moment they released it meaning that players can capitalize on this by providing their own feedback by any reasonable means to help them improve their game overall and that is exactly what Scott did by making his video.
You could gain a lot out of watching it, especially where you're commenting on a post that's dedicated to that video. Otherwise again I have to ask what the point even is of posting on this thread.
I do understand that might've came off rude, but I don't think I could've worded that any better.
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@Janick said:
Hello
We are reluctant at the moment at modifying her. First we have other killers who are higher in the list for modification/balance needs. Second thing, our stats shows that she is top killer (4K) at rank one. It seems that once you've mastered her, she can be extremely effective. She definitely has a high skill curve.
@Janick I appreciate you taking your time to respond to this. I do absolutely understand that some killers are in greater need of some changes and that things such as the Freddy rework easily take a higher priority however I have some questions regarding the statistics you gave us.
- Do these stats take disconnects into account? As of currently disconnects have gone rampant and it's nearly impossible to get people to not disconnect and sometimes it feels like people are always disconnecting. I feel as if because disconnecting is such a major issue the results are certain to be skewed because disconnects encourage more people to give up or allow for an easier game while the rare games that do not have disconnects are not guaranteed to be against survivors who know what they're doing.
- How many people are actually running Plague at rank 1? For reference, 1/1 games as the Plague and getting a 4k equates to the average being a 4k because almost no other matches will be able to change that result. If let's say 10 people played Plague once and in 7 of those matches they got a 4k then the result still isn't accurate enough as it clearly doesn't include the entire community. This is especially keeping my other point into account where the disconnect issue has been keeping people away from achieving rank 1.
- Are addons, particular perks or offerings taken into account? If the killer is using a strong combo like enduring/spirit fury it of course makes sense that they will be more likely to get a better result but that's the work of the perks in this example and not the power itself. Addons are also important because the only way to deal with groups who never cleanse is to run the apple addons which only grant you 1 or 2 times to use your corrupt purge meaning that if this addon was used then it also unfairly skews the results. Offerings are also important for obvious reasons such as the mori or particular map offerings.
Again, I absolutely appreciate and respect you for taking your time to respond to this. I just simply want to get a better understanding of what exactly was taken into account when these statistics were grabbed especially with the three points I've listed above.
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@TheGameZpro3 said:
I agree with all that you said except this:
"There is literally no counter play."
So I'll list the counters now:
- The Huntress with good aim. (MoM activates with basic attacks)
- Leatherface's Chainsaw
- The Hillbilly's Chainsaw
- The Plague (If sick the ash to injured, then hit. Do this til 3 hooks. By hitting them exactly 3 times, the MoM isn't active)
- The Legion (Same reasoning with PLAG, use feral frenzy, not basic attack, then hit them exactly 3 times whie already injured. MoM won't activate.)
- Camp em on first hook (not recommended to camp, but it is a counter)
@TheGameZpro3 so let's take a look at your counters.
1 : Of this list, I will consider Huntress as the only one of two legitimate ways to counter this perk because she actually has to use her power, however it's not impossible to get MoM to activate against her either especially on bad maps.
2 : Leatherface is horrible, his chainsaw provides barely any use in the average match unless the survivor makes a huge mistake.
3 : Hillbilly is on the fence, this can partially be correct but some setups on particular maps are so disgusting that sometimes you have to M1 meaning that like Huntress it's not impossible to activate MoM if you're smart.
4 : Plague isn't that great of a killer, if you can bait an M1 attack before you're broken then her power doesn't matter especially if nobody cleanses.
5 : Legion has an incredibly extensive 20 second cooldown for a mediocre power, sometimes chaining hits is not possible and with not knowing exactly who is running the perk it's entirely possible and very easy to activate MoM against Legion.
6 : Camping is not a counter because you cannot possibly know if someone is running MoM before it activates and so just camping for the sake of camping is just being a dick and should not ever be encouraged. To even hint that this could be a counter indicates it's a flawed design and is a boring tactic for both sides.
So of this list, if you're looking to actually have fun then you can only ever use Billy or Huntress which not everybody wants to exclusively run those two killers and leaves every other killer in the game dry, forcing them to play against it if they choose to not play in an unfun way which is fundamentally flawed as it harms the already weak killers that nobody reasonable ever complains about in the first place.
Judging by your comment you don't like the perk but I think the above needed to be said regardless.
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@Alonzo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/500907#Comment_500907
Agreed. The Plague has huge potential but they crippled her.
I would like to point out that nothing fundamentally changed about Plague between the PTB and what we have now meaning that the changes have nothing to do with her strength because people don't cleanse.
If anything the PTB version would only give further incentive to not cleanse because when Plague got the corrupt purge on the PTB version and held it she moved at 5.0 m/s (vile purge was 4.6 m/s). Afterall, who would give Plague mobility and an actually good power by cleansing? The difference was that people were looking to test on the PTB so more people felt inclined to cleanse while on live people caught onto the fact that if you never cleanse then you never give her a real power as broken doesn't threaten good survivors as it doesn't get in the way of generator progress in any direct (action speed debuff) or indirect way (mobility, actually threatening power to warrant in healing, etc)
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@Mochan said:
The balance is fine. If you don't have any power as killer it means you're just not playing good enough.
If your killer can't keep up with experienced survivors, it just means you're terribly inexperienced.
I disagree with this, there are some horrible maps out there such as haddonfield, disturbed ward, ormond, temple of purgation, etc... This is why I'm excited to see what they have ready for the map rework they will be talking about on the anniversary stream.
What you don't realize is that there is a specific playstyle that is incredibly unfun that denies a majority of the killers in the game their power (the exceptions being Nurse, Billy, Spirit, Hag & Huntress) by never healing and only ever doing generators to pop adrenaline and escape causing some games to go by very quickly which is worsened by bad maps.
Because of this some killers are flawed and here are some examples of that;
- Some killers are flawed in the sense of luck such as in the case of Trapper & Pig.
- Some killers are flawed in the sense that never healing denies full & proper use of their power such as in the case of Legion & Plague.
- Some killers only have a power that focuses on one aspect of the game such as Clown who has a chase power that doesn't do its job well enough on some maps and also doesn't focus on other parts of the game like applying pressure.
- Some killers are fine with addons but struggle heavily without them such as Wraith.
- Lastly, some killers are just really bad like Cannibal who barely gets to use their power unless the survivor makes a heavy mistake.
Ignoring this and only looking at the 5 killers who are in a great state means you ultimately ignore the fundamental issues the other killers heavily struggle to put up with.
Edit : I've even heard plenty of experienced streamers in the game say that there are simply just some matches you will lose. There are simply some matches you will lose whether or not that reason is out of your hands or due to basic mistakes, that does not mean however that we shouldn't look to help fix these problems to better improve the game for both sides.
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@prayer_survivor said:
I played this game for a long time and I don't know yet if killers want us to heal or not. Devs can't nerf survivors for healing and for not healing.
The only reason why the devs nerfed healing speeds is because they wanted to help give killers more tools to slow down the game by hitting a survivor and making them waste more time healing.
Unfortunately however this heal nerf would eventually go on to encourage the "no heal meta" where people just slap on adrenaline, never heal and just do gens in order to burn through the game as fast as possible and obtain a free heal as they realized that healing normally is just a huge waste of time especially if perks like sloppy butcher are being used. For this reason people are wanting the devs to punish survivors for ignoring a part of the game by never healing.
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Keep in mind that adding more trees would be harmful to Huntress who is already hindered heavily by over half of the maps in the game.
With that being said I would not mind seeing an extra jungle gym or two however I think that in return they should also shrink shelter woods because it's currently tied with rotten fields for being the second largest map in the game.
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@Mochan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/495213#Comment_495213
Giving both the ability to dodge is the incorrect solution.
The far better solution is to remove everyone's ability to dodge. Killer's can't see survivors or their names, survivor's can't see killer. All you see is the 5-line symbol and ping for each player. As easy as that.
The legit reasons for dodging don't need any other info. While all the illegitimate reasons for dodging come about through showing the player's names and their outfits/items.
I disagree with the idea of hiding names for a few simple reasons ;
- You can see who is in your game by checking the "view players" tab on steam and you will see their usernames ingame anyways.
- In my games it's not uncommon for me to see the same faces, some of which were really good players, really nice players or really toxic players. For each of these scenarios knowing the names are important for me as it helps allow me to set up a build based on what I know about their playstyle. For instance if I know the players in my match are nice, I'm not going to want to use anything stupid just like if I know the players are good, I might want to bring in decent addons or if I know the survivors in my game are going to run something stupid then I will too because of past experiences.
Infact for the same two reasons I listed above, I wouldn't entirely hate having survivors see the name of the killer in the lobby. For everything else in your post though I believe my original response on the first page covers that pretty well as any other change to hide items for instance would render already bad perks (Franklin's, Overwhelming Presence & Lightborn) totally useless.
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@laKUKA said:
NO! is boring for survs.
And? Survivors have a number of perks that are incredibly boring to go against such as MoM, Adrenaline, BL, Sprint Burst, etc... Mind you that I'm simply saying they're boring to go against.
The point I'm making though is that you aren't going to get very far by just saying "No because it's boring" as that can get thrown right back at you.
Thanatophobia is widely considered to be weak because the impact it has on the game is minuscule. People also commonly complain about going against the same killers with the same builds so if you're looking for variety then how exactly would you buff Thanatophobia if it isn't by a number change?
Personally I think Thanatophobia should only apply to generator time and be worth 8.25% per injured survivor. That means with 4 survivors injured you slow the speed of generators by 33% which means 39 seconds would be added to each generator if nobody heals with no drawback to healing time. This means that it would encourage people to heal which would actually be just slightly faster than tanking out the thanatophobia debuff by 7 whole seconds if the survivor is running self-care.
Edit : This buff I suggested would also make botany knowledge a more valuable perk due to the fact that it allows you to heal people 33% faster.
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Hello everyone, maybe this will entice you all to try Plague out once more as she is very versatile.
I think you have the right ideas in mind when you say that people should play Plague and I would absolutely agree if survivors wanted to cleanse in the first place.
She can be incredibly fun when survivors actually give you the corrupt purge but I find that if survivors never cleanse then I just end up having a very boring game and not have any chance to utilize her power whatsoever.
Broken isn't very threatening to survivors on its own because if you get a map like temple of purgation, ormond, haddonfield, disturbed ward to name a few then survivors will never feel threatened enough to want to cleanse as it doesn't get in their way.
You mentioned that you bring the apple addons which it's a great thing to have at least one fountain but my question is, should you really need addons in order to actually get the chance to use your power? Plague has an interesting power but it's ruined by simply being optimal.
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@LastShoe said:
Does pig needs some attention? Yes.
Does this answer to the problems she has is good? No.
Right now her key system is alright, the only thing that could be changed is to give her 1 more box without any key.
In my opinion her main issue is that outside her ambush attack she is just m1 killer and well... her ambush attack is actually really easy to avoid by just listening for the sound she makes.
Also, there are other killers that are more of a need of some tweaks.
Also, small tip, if you pay attention to where survivors disarmed traps you can stop patrolling these boxes because they have no key now.
Actually multiple keys can spawn in the same box, how it works currently is that a key for each RBT is put into a box ahead of time before the trial and sometimes they can spawn multiple keys in the same box.
Luck is a bad thing to rely on especially when it comes to stalling the game, my suggestions are there to improve on that aspect. I do believe they could look at her ambush but it isn't the end of the world if they don't and because of that I believe it was a better idea to look at her RBTs.
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@Arroz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/494721#Comment_494721
Well, so survivor should be allowed to see who they are playing against.
Why can't survivor dodge 5 blinks nurse? Instasaw billy? IH huntress?
As others have stated, high ping is usually a very valid reason to dodge as nobody is going to have fun in that match anyways. In addition to this, although I do not dodge for items I can understand if people want to dodge against 4x toolboxes/medkits due to the possibility of it being either a bunch of very strong toolboxes or instahealers which are just boring to go against.
That being said, all of the addons you complained about are being looked into anyways as they're planning to look into the addons for Nurse & Billy along with changing iridescent head. Another thing to keep in mind is that killers can see the survivors because there are a handful of perks (Franklin's Demise, Overwhelming Presence & Lightborn) that would be made totally useless if they couldn't see the survivors while survivors have no perks that are reliant on a certain killer being used.
On the otherhand, disconnecting is never fine in my opinion unless you're in a position where you either cannot play the game at all (stuck, bad performance on certain maps or a literal infinite). That being said I cannot tell you how many matches I get where I'll be playing killer and someone immediately disconnects either because they got a map they didn't like or because they are against a killer they didn't like which screws the game over for their 3 other teammates who might also disconnect as a result of it. Disconnecting is a serious issue that takes the life out of the game unlike dodging which is a minor inconvenience.
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I'm going to sound like an absolute lunatic with some unpopular opinions, but seeing where we are talking about tier lists I might as well throw in my own (this is also going off of no addons/perks) ;
- Nurse
- Hillbilly
- Spirit
- Hag
- Huntress
- Myers
- Freddy
- Legion
- Wraith
- Plague
- Pig
- Doctor
- Clown
- Trapper
- Leatherface
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1:
The problem with adding restrictions to SWF is the fact that you start punishing people who simply want to play with their friends. Toxicity is bound to happen and is not exclusive to people who play SWF.
The best solution to SWF is just to properly balance the other aspects of the game like fixing up broken maps and making more killers viable to have different tools that will help them gain an edge over coordinated groups.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I think what needs to change with plague is the actual reason it should be urgent for survivors to cleanse themselves at pools once they’ve reached full infection.
Perhaps if instead of Vile Purge inducing the broken state, and pools providing an insta heal, full infection from Vile Purge acts similar to Madness tier 3, the survivor cannot perform interactions (including repairs) until cleansed.
So no more broken state, no more healing.
And to ensure The Plague can’t stalemate the game (guarding the last available pool of devotion if all other pools are corrupt, thus preventing any further repairs) make each pool of corruption automatically clear itself after a specified amount of time, perhaps the same amount of time a sabo repairs itself.
I think when it comes to the Plague, the best way to change her is to make both powers equally as good but in different areas so people have to make a tough decision that will ultimately encourage more people to want to cleanse, forcing it for instance is not the solution here as the power entirely revolves around both sides making choices.
I believe that a good way to help Plague is to introduce a new tier of sickness and how it would work is simple ;
Plague can put you into broken after reaching maximum tier 1 sickness, however she cannot put you into tier 2.
To achieve tier 2 it's based on a timer of how long you don't cleanse outside of a chase meaning that it's totally on you if you never cleanse. To indicate your progress towards tier 2 sickness a darker green bubble will appear and inflate outwards until that's the new icon overlay. When you achieve maximum tier 2 sickness you're inflicted with hindered (5%?) & a 25% action speed debuff.
While tier 2 might sound very strong when combined with being broken, keep in mind that it's totally the survivor's fault if they get it as the Plague will not be able to inflict it herself and can still be removed with the 6 second action that is cleansing. Basically, it's an idea to encourage more cleansing by giving survivors a tougher choice of what kind of a game they're going to want.
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@Mochan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/489108#Comment_489108
Killer has Enduring, which is meta anyway, that should be a perk to remove the stagger effect similar to Balanced landing.
I always found it strange that killers were unaffected by falling but survivors where, when the design was supposed to be that Killers move faster, but Survivors are more agile.
This would mean that enduring would become an actual requirement to have a reasonable match on already problematic matches. The last thing we need is to make perks mandatory to run.
The problem with the idea of giving killers a stagger effect is the following two points ;
- This would turn already bad maps into actual infinites if those bad maps had drop-offs.
- The killer already moves faster than survivors meaning that when they fall they move much further than a survivor does. Assume this is at a structure then what this would do is allow survivors turn right into the structure all while the killer loses more and more distance which ties into the issue above.
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@BillyIII said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/489339#Comment_489339
You mean it will make them balanced? You are not entitled to free kills.
Wanting maps to be balanced has nothing to do with wanting free kills.
Maps like Wretched Shop, Ironworks of Misery, Disturbed Ward, Haddonfield, Preschool, Grim Pantry & Ormond for instance have absolutely atrocious loops and of these maps, all but Wretched Shop can be turned into near infinite loops (or an actual infinite in the case of Haddonfield) with balanced landing alone, a stagger for killers would turn all but one of these maps into actual infinite loops with no opportunity to mindgame them meaning that nobody would ever be able to catch those survivors under any circumstances.
Understand that fixing these maps to not be problematic would also mean the removal of bloodlust which is a win for everyone. Rather than add problematic aspects that worsen current problems we should look to fix what issues we already have.
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Killers should be stunned like survivors when they land from a fall.
The problem with this idea is that perks like balanced landing that reduce the stagger turns maps like disturbed ward turn into absolutely horrendous loops and against some killers - literal infinite loops.
This idea would only make this problem worse on already problematic maps and would be unnecessary. Ontop of this when a killer falls from a height they also move way further away than a survivor does due to their higher movement speed which already puts enough distance between the killer & survivor as it is.
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/487737#Comment_487737
Freddy is in a terrible state, but Freddy mains have put so much time into the killer that they no longer see his flaws and shortcoming for what they are. He's functioning in ways that go against what would be proper game design for every other killer. He's got a very strong gimmick that can cripple game progress for survivors, but he actually can't play the game without his power. That is something he shares with the nurse except in her case while she'll never be viable without her power; Nurse will still be able to at great expense still hit and potentially down you without her power. Freddy can not do the basic gameplay at all. He can't pull off gens, pull off hooks, do basic attacks or body blocks without having someone asleep beforehand. Putting people to sleep isn't instant so there is a period of time where freddy can't even be considered in a chase.
He can't interact with the game, but can be stunned and blinded by survivors who are awake. That's a huge downside freddy mains are playing through which is respectable as hell. Yet, he has no reason to function like that. That is poor killer design. A killer should be able to take all the universal actions freely. I understand putting time into something and thinking it is great when by the design of the game it isn't. I know it feels bad to have it change when you've gotten strong despite the adversity, I also know when something needs to change for the greater good too. Freddy gotta get fixed.
Actually, nothing is wrong with a killer functioning on a totally different level from the other killers. It's actually a good design if you're looking to shake the gameplay up because what Freddy provides is a totally unique playstyle that you cannot take advantage of if you play him like a regular killer.
Freddy is awful if you play him like a regular killer, but when you put multiple people to sleep then you're heavily stalling the game and get all the information you need though this does come at the cost of not having a chase based power. While he might not feel that great to play for most players the problem is that a lot of people who have taken the time to learn, perfect and actually like this power will suffer from the rework that will inevitably change him and his playstyle.
While I'm confident the developers have a cool and exciting power for the rework, I would like to see the playstyle the current Freddy provides to show up in another killer in the future because powers that fundamentally change how you play the game are what keeps things fresh.
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@SlinkyJinky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/485533#Comment_485533
Oh but it does. You get far more out of it if you earn your keep with MoM by escaping to mend three times
Once activated if you haven't been hooked you have the added bonus of having 2 hooks before sacrifice.
If your at full health and MoM is prepped to fire off you have two hit points before the next hit will down you.
Far better than if wounded and have already been hooked once then you only get 1 hit when MoM activates before the next hit downs you and your sacrificed on your 3rd hook.
You see, the problem with that is you're wasting time by healing unless someone else is healing you with botany or we'll make it.
There is no greater benefit if you lose the killer and no matter what the scenario is you did not earn your extra hit because you failed by getting hit in the first place. MoM is like you've already said, an extra health state which mind you that an instahealer which does the same exact thing is worth 6,000/7,000 BP per addon depending on which one you're using.
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I just want to hear some opinions. I believe that the spirit is stronger than billy because of how amazing she is at chasing which billy really lacks.
I personally think that while Billy & Spirit are both amazing killers, Billy is slightly better because he has high mobility, map pressure and unlike Spirit he doesn't need to pick between chasing and mobility as he doesn't have a long cooldown on his power.
They're both great killers though and I do believe Spirit is definitely better than Billy if you slap on uncommon or rare addons.
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@SlinkyJinky said:
This thread again? just another tunnel vision Killer crutchlord who cant play Survivor because /hard mode so /cries fo Survivor nerfs and Killer buffs
@OP "Changes for MoM We all know that MoM does not require skill to activate" - lol
- Get hit once, escape and mend
- Get hit a second time, escape, and mend
- Get hit a third time , escape and mend
- (by this time the Killer has had 3 chances to hook you and failed, allowing you to EARN your 1 extra hit)
- Next time, the Killer will have to hit you three times before your downed.
Pretty sure juking the killer and earning your pip by escaping = SKILL! lmao
MoM gains charges when you're hit, they're not lost when you get hooked. Mind you that MoM can also still activate if you never heal as it only requires 3 hits which is enough for it to activate by the time you're on death hook.
Had you actually been right and MoM actually required you to lose the killer and waste your own time healing then nobody would be complaining about the perk. Maybe instead of just calling people whining crutchlords you should actually post something that has a meaningful impact on a discussion.
Also for the record, nerfing a perk is not a nerf to role as it does not change the fundamental strength of said role for all players. A nerf to a perk is exactly what it is, a nerf to the strength of the perk itself, not the role as a whole.
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@[Deleted User] said:
She’s fine. It’s just a steep learning curve to use her effectively, and manage the pools properly so that you keep them in the broken state, and ensure the only available pools to heal are near the gens you relentlessly patrol, making the endgame repairs extremely dangerous for survivors.
Actually, Plague is relatively simple to learn but has an amazing concept behind her.
The problem is that nobody who is optimal wants to cleanse to actually give her that fun and exciting power that is "corrupt purge", you can't manage your pools if nobody wants to cleanse at all. Currently keeping people broken is far from the problem because it isn't threatening and is the most optimal (and boring) way to play against Plague.
While you could argue that if people play this way then she basically has instadowns, the issue with that is the fact that she's incredibly tall which makes mindgaming more difficult especially when you have to rely on M1 attacks at that point.
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I'm not going to call any names of the basic examples, but I want to say that some fog whispers aren't well picked.
I'd be more so concerned as to whether or not the fog whisperers are good role models to the community than what opinions they have of the game, which if it comes down to that then I can't really think of many if any names at all that are problematic.
The reason why it's fine is because fog whisperers are not the ones balancing the game, they make content that people enjoy and part of making that content in a game like this is showing off your opinions of the game, being entertaining or skilled.
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I still manage to have fun in the game when I play killer despite problematic maps & perks though I do believe the game could be made a lot more fun with a new mode like 2v8 as an example.
Survivor on the otherhand is iffy, I occasionally have fun but can easily get bored if I play survivor for too long or just get farmed by my teammates.
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I generally like killers that can move faster than normal in some way. For that reason I have the most fun with Spirit, Legion, Wraith & Pig though I've been playing less Spirit as of lately due to the sound issues.
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@HURRI_KAIN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/482145#Comment_482145
Prayer beads is not required for Spirit to grab, has she been changed again? You only hear her sound if you were outside of TR when she started, right? Has this been changed? She's possibly the strongest killer in the game, if played correctly.
Cannibal - Apparently i'm not a competent survivor I still get downed by LF now and again.
Hillbilly - Just because they "can" M1, doesn't mean they don't have a counter to MoM.
Response to Trapper ^^ There are counters to each killer, that's why legion was nerfed so hard, people were tired of no counter. There are counters to MoM, and it's just sad they're wanting to nerf something so balanced, and so new.
Actually, I stated that competent survivors will rarely get downed by the chainsaw, not that they cannot.
You also said "silent spirit" which is prayer beads, while grabs are possible any smart survivor isn't going to sit on a generator in the heartbeat knowing it's a spirit. There's also no way for Spirit to be better than Nurse, though I do absolutely think she's the third best killer.
MoM by no means is balanced because only a handful of killers can possibly handle it yet even their so called "counters" can be nullified for the most part for the reasons I provided in my previous post. I also never asked why Legion got changed because I'm one of the people who supported changing Legion because of the fact that the old version had no consistent counterplay.
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I'm pretty sure this is a bug, BHVR has acknowledged that there are sound issues in every patch they release currently so it's safe to assume that this is not intended.
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@SlinkyJinky said:
Legion's entire class ruined countless peoples dbd experience for -half a year- till their long overdue nerf landed.
Ash is out a little over a month before the hordes of Killer fanboi's /cry their corrosive radioactive, acid infused tears of necrotic rage cancer enduing misery to get Ash's one good perk nerfed into hyper situational dusty shelf extinction.
Yeah.
Actually, people waited 4.5 months for the legion changes which both killers and survivors wanted to see.
The MoM changes aren't even final and is just a proposal, rather than be a hypocrite and whine about how they want to look at the perk, why not just propose a better way to change it to be better for both sides? As it stands, MoM is unfun and has no valid counterplay when used against most killers along with being incredibly easy to achieve by failing which is problematic design.
@HURRI_KAIN said:
Trapper Traps - catches MoM, DH will avoid.
Hillbilly - Chainsaw
Nurse - Her speed more than makes up for one additional hit.
Myers - Tier III, Insta Mori, Silent Myer grabs, etc.
Huntress - hatchets, and they're wanting to give her a headshot insta down.
Cannibal - insta downs
Clown - Red head's pinky finger
Spirit - silent spirit, grabs,
Plague - Corruption
So of all the killers, these four don't have built in counters to MoM:
Pig -RBT
Hag - collision traps
Doctor
Freddy
The smallest thing that makes killers have to rethink their strategy and they lose their minds. - Let's not forget ALL killers have Moris which are OP and It definitely counters MoM.
Trapper - Can be countered by disarming traps, having eyes, disarm tech (while in the disarm interaction the trap can no longer trap people allowing teammates to pass over it)
Hillbilly - Can be forced to M1 in some scenarios.
Nurse - She does not counter MoM, she is simply just so insanely powerful that she manages. She is in need of at least getting addon changes anyways.
Myers - Not guaranteed, the hits still count as stacks and wasting your power on just one guy is silly. Your counter does not keep multiple people running MoM in mind.
Huntress - Alright, this is actually valid. However, most maps are very bad for her.
Cannibal - His chainsaw is awful and will rarely get any use against competent survivors.
Clown - Balance should not be based on addons, the pinky finger is an ultra rare addon you won't always have and it's stupid to tell people to use unfun addons to counter a stupid perk. Also keep in mind that bottles are way harder to get direct hits with than hatchets.
Spirit - Once again, balance should not be based on addons. Prayer beads is a stupid addon that is incredibly unfun for survivors. The point is that the game should be fun, encouraging people to run unfun addons to deal with your unfun perk is not valid because then nobody has fun. The whole point of a game is to have fun.
Plague - If you never cleanse, she never gets her corrupt purge. Like Billy, she can be forced to M1 in some scenarios or waste an incredible amount of time with her vile purge on the other hand.
Pig - Her only method of handling MoM is ambush attacks which are only viable at specific loops, a lot of the time using your ambush attack is not a very good idea.
Hag - I see you've already acknowledged she doesn't have a built in counter.
Doctor - Same thing as the above.
Freddy - Once again, same as the above.
Legion - You forgot legion actually, they are the only other killer that can somewhat deal with MoM in some cases due to deep wounds & MoM not stacking together however it's still possible to have the perk activate due to an extensive cooldown that gets 50% of the cooldown reset on each regular attack.
Wraith - Has no way to counter MoM.
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@Starlobster4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/473107#Comment_473107
Really cos I have never, in the 3 years playing this game, had survivors whether I was killer or on the survivor team stall the game by hiding in the map after exits were opened. At times survivor hide around the gate but thats it, i find them and they escape or die.
What benefit does it provide by hiding and waiting for killer to DC?
Just because it doesn't happen to you does not mean it doesn't happen to other people. It's like walking up to a car crash victim and telling them "dude, I don't believe you were hit by a car because that never happened to me".
I've personally experienced one case where only a single gen was done with 3 kills and I had to spend 20 minutes trying to find a Claudette who did absolutely nothing but hide. In other cases some people I know of spent even longer, infact I know a person who held a game hostage for over an hour by doing nothing but hide. It's very rare, yet horrible when it happens and for that reason this update is an excellent change to the game to avoid cases like these.
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I don't know why devs think the only way to get the game balance is nerfing survivors over and over.
The MoM nerf is absolutely justified, also keep in mind that the change they proposed isn't final and other ideas could be taken into consideration before they even put it on whatever PTB will house the changes to it.
MoM suffers from the same issue as NOED where you're given a huge reward for failing miserably, both are problematic perks that should not exist in their current state. Unlike NOED however, MoM cannot be deactivated and absolutely cripples the M1 killers which already have a hard time in the game as it is.
Reading your other posts, just because the devs have stated that not all killers will be viable does not mean that they should release perks that hit them harder. Infact, if you paid any attention to what the developers have stated, they also said that they want each new killer they release to be fun to play as and against. Making killers fun is a great thing, but releasing a perk that cripples most of the killers in the game means that a lot of these killers they designed will suddenly be incredibly unfun to play because they have no tools to counter MoM.
You also state that Leatherface, Plague, Hillbilly & Huntress can avoid MoM (I don't remember if you mentioned Pig & Legion or not) but what you don't realize is that none of these killers are guaranteed to avoid the perk as some maps or scenario's make using your powers absolutely detrimental. I suppose you also don't remember that survivors want more variety in their games too, and on this list I can only see people using Huntress & Billy if they decided to not change MoM.
Basically, one poorly designed perk should not be allowed to ruin the fun of others who enjoy using the other fun killers the devs put time into making. To tell people to just play viable killers is not only proof that MoM is a stupid perk but also contradicts what survivors really want which is more variety in their matches.
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Endgame is not the right way to go about stopping survivors prolonging the game or hatch standoffs.
The EGC is actually a great way to solve these issues.
First of all, it's not intended to stop survivors from just sitting at the exit gates, the actual intention is to prevent survivors from ruining the killer's experience by hiding at the end of the match until the killer disconnects.
Second of all, you can't just magically maintain all 5 of your generators every single game and both sides are equally as responsible for the hatch standoff as both sides are there doing absolutely nothing but wait. Mind you that should you actually even kill 3 survivors before the first 2 generators get done then they could just hide until the killer disconnects.
It's also ironic that you're whining about killers who wanted a solution to the hatch standoff when you're now whining about the endgame collapse.
I will admit, there is a flaw in the sense that two exit gates can spawn very closely together sometimes but that's a map design problem and not the endgame collapse itself.
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@MegsAreEvil said:
So why do you think the dying state addons are red and purple? I will tell you: cause its too powerful for basekit.
Actually, very rare & ultra rare addons aren't always super powerful.
A lot of killers have very weak ultra rare addons as for example, pig, legion & wraith have at least one weak ultra rare addon. In addition to this, very rares are usually actually fair like in the case of Wraith or absurdly strong like in the case of Spirit.
Why is this? Because it comes down to the power, just because it's of a certain rarity does not mean it's too powerful unless the addons modify an already good power by an insane amount.
Trapper's power for instance isn't actually that great because the beartraps are super visible, can be disarmed, totally avoided with dead hard or the Trapper can even step in his own trap. Now, I wouldn't advocate for instadown traps but I do think it's only fair to allow Trapper to spawn with all of his traps especially considering how Hag who is objectively a better killer gets to spawn with all of her traps.
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The problem with this is that playing a different killer generally doesn't fundamentally change the way you play unless you're trying to learn Nurse, Hillbilly, Spirit, Huntress or Hag. That being said, for every killer except Nurse anything you learn that makes you a better player applies to every other killer as well for things such as mindgames while every killer learns how to pressure the game generally in the same way.
So if we consider that, your suggestion would actually allow people to just bully new survivors if they had such an intention in mind as you would still have the same general game knowledge. The best thing I can recommend is to just have fun learning the killer rather than winning with them so you can enjoy how much you improve with them, afterall even putting yourself against good survivors as a new killer will actually teach you more about how you should play the killer against them as the same tricks you would use on a rank 1 would not work on a rank 20 and vice versa.
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I do very well in a M1 killer (trapper) with overcharge + sloopy butcher + apply pressure.. (Rank 10)
Ruin doesn't need to be in every build, however because of how fast some games can go ruin is often highly recommended especially for when you use killers who cannot apply pressure (anyone who isn't Nurse, Hillbilly, Spirit, Hag or Huntress) or because of bad maps such as the disturbed ward.
The reason why you aren't noticing how fast the games can go is because you're going against potatoes which exist in every rank, if you play killer enough then you will learn what most people are pointing at.
Ruin helps heavily for the cases you're playing as a basic M1 killer on let's say an absolutely massive map like mother's dwelling or rotten fields or as most killers on disturbed ward which is both massive and has a god-like structure at the dead center of the map.
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@legion_main said:
I like your instadown idea however 1 huge flaw I see is people farming off of hook
if it had to be a safe unhook and you could only have 1 token at a time then I would fully support it but despite all of it I will add your idea to the list
Probably should've worded that better but yes that would go with the safe-unhooks especially as that has been changed for WGLF and is already the case for deliverance.
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I think MoM is fine but a lot of people complain about it so here are some ideas to balance it Idea 1:
I personally do not like either of these two ideas the more I think about it.
The problem with MoM is the same exact issue people had with old DS where eventually a survivor essentially gains a free healthstate to run the killer around for longer under a circumstance of which they should've originally gone down. It doesn't change the fact that you didn't earn your ability to take an extra hit during a risky scenario or by doing something so insane that you deserved it.
Mangled does not keep in mind the fact that most good survivors do not heal and a permanent hindered effect would only be a mild annoyance and does not actually address the problem of having cheap perks.
The following below is my personal solution to MoM ;
- MoM now grants a token for each time you save a survivor.
- When you have a token any instadowns will now only do one healthstate at the cost of a token.
With this idea in mind you can directly counter powerful perks like NOED or a good power like Billy's chainsaw rather than punish every other killer in the game, by making this a rewarded perk and a counter to instadowns there wouldn't be much reason to complain.
That being said, I forgot who said this but someone also had another idea I really liked which was to make MoM a bodyblock perk where it grants you the extra healthstate for bodyblocking meaning that there would be a direct counter such as mad grit or just dropping the survivor.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/455036#Comment_455036
You could’ve just said your opinion in another MoM thread.
While it's fair to say that you don't want a million of "MoM" posts all over the forums, why shouldn't someone be free to just make their own posts. Afterall, where were all the complaints about the amount of legion posts prior to the rework announcement if you don't mind me asking?
I think it's fine for people to make their own posts even if it's already a common topic and afterall there is no official forum post that says "put all your opinions about MoM here".
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@GucciUwU said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/451819#Comment_451819
BT: First perk that has been nerfed in 2k18, both the rescuer and the hooked were protected by the Deep Wound status effect, I agree that old borrowed time was broken back then.
Balanced Landing: They nerfed it during the exhaustion change, along with Lithe and any other exhaustion perk.
Breakdown: Not meta and kinda useless on top of that.
Distortion: Decent perk, definitely not meta.
DS: It was a meta perk before, now it's situationnal. Don't get me wrong it's still a good perk but you're lying to yourself if you say it hasn't been nerfed, it's not as strong as before.
Deliverance: Situationnal too, not a strong perk if you're playing solo survivor.
Unbreakable and Adrenaline are the only perks in your list that haven't been changed yet.
Regarding BT, yeah I made a mistake, for some reason I thought that change was in late 2017. That being said it has since then also received some buffs as well and is also unlimited use though I will agree it's nothing like the first version of the perk.
To clarify though, although the exhaustion nerf happened that was only to avoid allowing the perks to activate more than once per chase. Balanced Landing however did receive a buff to its secondary function which allowed you to use the stagger reduction even while exhausted and on the other hand. Ontop of this there is still the fact that Lithe no longer requires being in a chase for it to work which is great for the perk so they still did receive buffs at the time of the exhaustion nerf for BL and after for lithe.
With that being said, I'm aware I brought up perks that weren't meta and that's because whether or not a perk is meta doesn't determine if it's good or not, instead I took the opportunity to say that there are still a lot of perks that are good for survivors and many other perks that have been given direct buffs to make more of them useful.
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Deliverance. It's very nice to know that I can save another teammate and then be rewarded with being able to unhook myself especially under the event where my teammates are at the other side of the map doing literally nothing.
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@GucciUwU said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/451241#Comment_451241
Since early 2018 until now /EVERY/ survivor meta perks have been nerfed, stop crying and play the damn game.
Actually you're wrong as you still have great perks that to my knowledge haven't been nerfed.
Let's go down the list.
- Borrowed Time - This perk actually received buffs with Legion's release and is getting another one with the mid-chapter patch due to the changes to deep wounds.
- Balanced Landing - This perk got a buff where the passive stagger reduction is always active.
- Deliverance - A great perk that I don't think people even complain about or use that often surprisingly. Infact, this is my favorite perk to use when I play as survivor.
- Adrenaline - This perk actually received a buff where it no longer requires you to not be exhausted and is extremely meta right now.
- Lithe - This perk got a buff to no longer have the chase requirement.
- Unbreakable - To my knowledge this perk has not been nerfed.
- Breakdown - Alright, this isn't meta but people heavily underestimate how useful this perk is.
- Distortion - A perk that is currently fine and offered a direct counter to perks survivors heavily complained about like BBQ and Nurses Calling.
- Decisive Strike - In my opinion the changes to DS was neither a buff or a nerf but instead was a rework to maintain the power it did but under a very fair circumstance.
Keep in mind that you also have plenty of other perks that received QoL changes to improve their tier 1 & 2 versions, direct buffs to other perks like Alert & Ace in the Hole and also mind you that both sides in the game have been getting QoL not by the means of perks but by slight mechanic changes.
You still have great perks, you just take them for granted and it seems to me like you refuse to try any of the perks out. Give some other perks a try and find something you like because not everything was nerfed like you claim it was.
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It's a perk that requires you to work for it in order to pay off by getting hit at least three times before it activates and when you pull it off it feels super satisfying.
Here's the thing about MoM. The idea of being able to take an extra hit is actually fine as I think it's a good idea to utilize the endurance effect more like other effects such as broken, the problem is that it's way too easy to activate and punishes the killer for doing their job rather than rewarding the survivor for playing the game right.
The reason why old DS was so hated was because the killer would win the chase and down the survivor only to be "outplayed" by a perk that there was no guaranteed counterplay for and only one perk that could help out which was enduring. The survivor would be rewarded for misplaying all while the killer could generally only watch as they lose their pressure. The concept wasn't the problem, it was the requirements to activate the perk that was which got fixed with the new DS rework.
The reason why MoM is so hated is because you get hit 3 times in order to activate it which is the exact opposite of what you should want in a match, you should never be rewarded for failing to play the game. You didn't do anything special in your match to actually deserve to get an extra hit, you didn't save your teammate under risky circumstances, get tunneled or do something so wild that you're rewarded with a second chance, you failed to play the game 3 times in order to activate it. MoM does exactly what DS did by taking away the pressure the killer would originally get and also give the survivor distance. Stack that perk 4 times? Hell, stack that perk with any other super powerful perks like deliverance or adrenaline or even an insta healer? No sane killer is going to want to deal with that.
(To clarify, I don't have a problem with adrenaline or deliverance)
This is why nobody likes MoM, it's a second chance that takes away from killers who do their job right and rewards the survivor for failing which means that the killer loses pressure just like they did with DS rather than take the opportunity to make the perk have harsher circumstances to activate so you're truly getting a good reward for doing something right in the game.