vampire_toothy
vampire_toothy
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Spirit has a lot of really strong addons still, I think another good contender would be the wakizashi saya with the bloody hair brooch which allows her to quickly get into her power and also very easily land hits on people without having to be very accurate with her phasing. Even if it isn't her strongest possible combo, it's still pretty notable.
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@Mister_xD said:
ill do the math for you:
the normal gen repair speed is 80 seconds, however for each wounded survivor you take 4% longer to repair it.
that means the stats would be the following for each individual survivor:
1 injured player: 83.2 seconds (+3.2 seconds repair time)
2 injured players: 86.4 seconds (+6.4 seconds repair time)
3 injured players: 89.6 seconds (+9.6 seconds repair time)
4 injured players: 92.8 seconds (+12.8 seconds repair time)
also keep in mind that in order for the biggest slowdown to happen, all survivors need to be alive, which means you still got the full manpower on gens - every killed player will not count towards thana, so the individual slow down will decrease with each dead survivor.
Just as a quick clarification, that isn't how their math works.
Imagine it like this, the base charges per second is 1, and instead of directly changing the time, every number changing value instead modifies the charges per second. So to calculate how much time thanatophobia adds to a gen you can do 1 (1-/+ value), get the new charges per second and then put 80 over that number. Using this info we can actually see that thanatophobia adds this amount of time at tier 3 ;
1 injured player : ~83.333 seconds (+~3.333 seconds)
2 injured players : ~86.956 seconds (+~6.956 seconds)
3 injured players : ~90.909 seconds (+~10.909 seconds)
4 injured players : ~95.238 seconds (+~15.238 seconds)
Say that you wanted to account for multiple values, you'd simply do this : 1 (1-/+ value1) (1-/+ value2) and so on.
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@Poweas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1290236#Comment_1290236
I play Hag a lot, and it's super oppressive on her, considering that she can injure a team within 20 seconds effortlessly, and it actually happens pretty often despite what you'd think.
Personally I feel like corrupt intervention is better if you're looking to get more time as Hag and there are much more interesting options for her as well such as agitation and STBFL which can minimize downtime. There's just so much room for her to have more unique builds given how good she is.
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@Poweas said:
Only a little bit of people believed me when I claimed it was good, but if you look at it now, it's one of the best perks to combine with Sloppy to bring gens to a crawl on killers who can easily injure a team like Legion or Hag.
Anyone else really enjoy the combo?
I still think thanatophobia holds little value in the game as it only adds a maximum of 15 extra seconds to gens, which while nice is easily outclassed by other perks that can save you more time overall like pop or perks that allow you to punish a team harder in general such as perks like infectious fright and ruin.
While the combo of thanatophobia and sloppy butcher is common to see on m1 killers, it's just decent at best and a decent team can easily work through that or adapt by putting on other perks that negate the ones you're using. Not only this but a lot of people who run these two perks also run nurses calling which leaves it very easy to know most of the killer's build. Not only this but perks like sloppy butcher loses its value on any killer who injures/downs players using their power. In addition to this, sloppy butcher isn't as good on Legion anymore due to the fact that their frenzy no longer counts as a basic attack, meaning it will only apply when you actually down the survivors.
Basically I like other perks better and while it's nice that you enjoy the combo, I simply don't see the value in it especially when I enjoy killers who do not get that much value out of those two perks in particular.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1173833#Comment_1173833
The bigger the map, the more important it is to identify which gens to let go of, and which gens to pressure.
So let’s just pretend PGTW doesn’t exist.
Most killers should already know (and agree) that trying to protect every gen, and to chase all survivors everywhere is not realistic, and a poor way to play. Every map will have some gens at the edge of a map that don’t matter, some that it’s best to try and protect, and 1 or 2 gens that absolutely under no circumstance should be allowed to be repaired otherwise it’ll be clear that the match is lost.
With that in mind, it gives us a clear guideline as to which chases should be abandoned: Not just chases that take too long, but also chases try to take you too far (survivors know this. Most are trying to get you as far from key gens as they possibly can)
On the same page? Good.
Now for any players that weren’t able to grasp how important it was to limit their map patrol after their first initial lap at the beginning of the match, then original PGTW with its 30 second restriction was able to teach players better map control. There was no point downing and hooking survivors away from the gens you needed to use it on.
New PGTW with its 60 seconds has let killers develop poor habits in the same way old Ruin allowed killers to develop poor habits: letting any chase go anywhere on the map, and not think about how far they’re getting from important gens. There’s no point having 60 seconds if the other survivors are going to have plenty of time to repair important gens because the killer stupidly allowed themselves to travel so far away.
I wouldn't exactly blame poor habits on a perk, infact I don't really think the fact that the perk has a longer duration is really making people make a bad play as they're likely going to make mistakes without the perks anyways. Being fine with a nerf to a perk because someone who happened to have the perk played poorly with it and lost as a result of doing so doesn't really seem very logical in my eyes, unlike wanting to nerf a perk that causes a fundamental issue with the flow of the game instead (which pop doesn't do).
Lastly it isn't exactly a good sign if people should have to expect that they will lose 1-2 gens without being able to do anything about it as that's 20-40% of your objective gone without competition or any form of interaction regardless of your skill. That would be like telling a survivor that they should be fine with losing 2-5 hookstates at the start of the match within a minute of the game without being able to do anything about it no matter how good they are.
I should also bring up that certain makes make it straight up impossible to defend generators if the survivors are somewhat competent such as on Ormond (due to no deadzones) or Mother's Dwelling because the gens are way too spread apart usually and this is where the higher duration on pop actually ends up being a fine change as no matter what, pop is still going to remove the same 20 seconds off of a gen anyways but only if you earned it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1171995#Comment_1171995
You can still achieve those things with its original 30 second restriction. And I do play Clown. 30 seconds teaches better map control. I.e. don’t go chasing all around the map only to away from the very gens that PGTW needs to be used on.
Sure, until you get a massive map. Even if you didn't have an issue with it just being 30 seconds, it doesn't exactly discredit the points I provided as to why 60 seconds is justified. An extra 30 seconds to use this perk isn't necessarily the end of the world considering you can't just collect tokens with the perk.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1170715#Comment_1170715
They never really needed to buff it to 60 seconds in the first place.
It just needs to be reverted to 30 seconds, that’s all.
I don't really agree with this.
Sure if you played a high mobility killer then you usually wouldn't need 60 seconds. The problem is that the moment you get into basic M1 killers like Legion, Wraith, Clown, Trapper or Myers for instance, even 4.4 m/s killers without great mobility like Spirit (without addons), Huntress or Deathslinger then you'd end up with some situations especially on larger maps where you just couldn't reach a gen on time if you got unlucky and the one you checked had no progress or it'd pop before you even got there.
60 seconds is also totally fair for a few reasons ;
- Pop requires you to not only down but also hook a survivor, this means being rewarded for successfully completing a part of your main objective, something we should see more of in perks.
- Pop also requires you to spend time traveling to a gen you suspect has progress on it, there's still the risk that the gen pops before you even get there.
- When you reach the gen, you have to waste time kicking it which can often give survivors who were near the gen a large headstart to their chase.
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@Impermanent said:
How can anyone act like Oni running infectious fright and BBQ isn’t OP af? As a red rank PS4 solo, every game is like this:
- Oni downs someone. Someone screams nearby from IF.
- Oni hooks the player, and rages after the survivors that screamed or a BBQ target.
- Oni downs 1 or 2 more because it’s fng impossible to avoid the Oni in rage.
- or... Oni rages back to hook ala Spirit and downs 1 or 2 during the save.
It just goes on and on with Oni in near perpetual rage from all the hits. He is way too maneuverable and fast and can be in rage for way too much of the game. It’s not even worth playing most games. It’s a joke.
and if you are going to reply with a “git gud” just please don’t bother. You probably killer main or play in SWF or are just trying to look good. Oni is OPAF.
Oni is required to build up his power which during that time he is a basic 115, m1 killer, he should be incredibly strong when he finally gets it. In addition to this, slugging is what makes his power strong in the first place as otherwise you'd lose every game against competent survivors if you didn't.
Regarding avoiding his hits, there are some things you can do for as long as Oni isn't running scalped topknot and for as long as you're not on a map like shelter woods (which would be an addon and map problem, not a killer problem).
1 : When he's in his rage, position yourself at tiles or structures that feature lots of sharp turns such as LT walls, jungle gyms or any main structure (such as the houses on Badham & Haddonfield, not too sure about the new map yet though). Try to take as many turns as you can as soon as you can.
2 : If you cannot position yourself at a jungle gym, there are some pallet tiles that feature a dip in them that you can use to help avoid a hit, alternatively dropping the pallet early or going to smaller pallet tiles can be helpful. Junk tiles like the ones on MacMilllan Estate and Autohaven also feature additional junk next to the pallet, try to change up how you run around them.
3 : From what I can tell, you do not produce blood orbs while he's in bloodfury, take advantage of this and don't group up near the person being chased.
It's important to note that a good Oni is probably going to down you in their power unless you're at a tile they can't dash very well at, however being able to waste enough time where their bloodfury ends is extremely important as if they only get a single down in their full duration then they haven't gained much value out of their power which in return makes them way more beatable.
@FreakPrince said:
IF needs a cooldown, nothing else.
Infectious doesn't need a cooldown either, perks with long cooldowns on both roles aren't that fun to have while a short cooldown would simply just be pointless. More than anything I think that older maps like shelter woods should be looked at and adjusted to be made more interesting and fair for both roles and more maps should feature smaller pallets on the outskirts to make it easier to avoid the dash and other powers like it while also being fairly mindgameable for both roles.
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@BulletsNonstop said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1132754#Comment_1132754
I disagree with you man. I think people forget that these other 4 survivors that killers play against are PEOPLE too. And customers. Nobody’s trying to ######### over killers man. It’s really a cry for help. I don’t want to invest in a game where killers just zip around the map making it impossible to do gens or chase because they’re ######### insanely fast. There’s no need for the speed ONi or Trapper have. It’s ridiculous. I’d rather quit the game. How about instead of being so killer minded you take into consideration being in queue times longer or stacking up against rank 1 SWF only because that’s all that’s left ? They need a nerf man. It’s kinda unfair coming from a solo perspective. Oni just stomps around at a million miles an hour and can track blood and one hit slug fest and what not like.... nah. It’s unnecessarily too much. I just don’t have any fun playing against some of these killers to where I’m like okay ... I’m okay with that - when I die. It’s more deflating than anything. I’m not saying I feel entitled to survive but i can’t even get on a gen when there’s more than enough left and none have been done yet because he’s flying around everywhere and putting people down? If me not bleeding is that important to keeping me alive slow his ass down so I can break free. Sometimes you can’t even find a pallet fast enough to break away from Oni. Dude like nah.... Idk why anyone even has to explain this to you. I’m not racking up points when I see teammates go down and gens aren’t getting done. Every hook matters every down matters. Some of the Killers just ######### suck sometimes they take the fun out of the game. That slugging, one hitting, and camping needs to be eliminated. Like yeah you inevitably found me, why is there a dead end here, why does this vault allow me to die on the other side because the killer has god like Melee range attacks, why does Oni charge up so fast and fly at you like that? These are all things that I’d just rather back out. I’m a rank 9-11 I typically float around there. But it’s just deflating. I want a good chase where I can get some pallets dropped, stuns in, gain some distance, And some killers you really can do that. It’s enjoyable and you get points which is why I’m there. I could care less about dying sure get your kills. But don’t short me on points. This is my time and my money I gave you guys. It not all about the killer.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Trapper is not a fast killer at all, infact the highest speed he can move at (without Play With Your Food/NOED) is 4.6 m/s or otherwise the base 115% that most killers in this game have. Regarding Oni, slugging is a necessary part of winning against good teams as it's simply impossible to obtain a decent level of pressure by just 3 hooking everyone, in addition to this slugging is what makes Oni good. If Oni couldn't slug, he'd be extremely weak because his power is built around slugging.
@Impermanent said:
People seem to be owning with Oni lately. Most games Oni has blood lust like half the time and his steering and speed are insane. With infectious fright you’re just screwed. He downs someone, survivors in the area scream, he uses his rage to haul ass over and hit you at a 270 degree angle... it’s ridiculous. And of course these downs jget him to rage faster. He just seems to be decimating teams. There should be a longer cooldown or limit on his maneuverability. Something. I’m red ranks and red rank Oni games are not fun.
Oni is not in need of any nerfs aside from one of his addons called scalped topknot. While yes he's hard to deal with when he has his power up, he isn't like Spirit who doesn't provide feedback on what she's doing, he isn't like Myers who is suddenly going to go T3 the moment he sees you without knowing how charged his stalk is. There is a perfect opportunity to prepare for his power as it makes a global sound cue and when you hear it, it's best to split up so he cannot slug (which again is what makes him as good as he is). Additionally he has one of the worst early games in the game (with both Myers and Trapper being the only killers with a worse early game than him), playing it safe when he doesn't have his power up will bar him from getting it for a considerable enough amount of time. His flick is only 90 degrees, this means that if you suspect he will flick at some point during his dash when you're going around a corner, try to run in a different direction as he will not be able to hit you after he has turned a total of 90 degrees.
I will admit, he does snowball hard and he is hard to counter (borderline uncounterable if he has scalped topknot) and a majority of the time he will get at least one down in his power but from my experience Oni is a little more manageable to deal with than other killers and I enjoy how intense a good Oni can make a match at any point in the game rather than knowing the game is sealed the moment the gens get pumped out fast.
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I know the thread says two perks, but I'll list two perks from both sides since there are some perks that just simply cut it too close for me to say "yeah, this is definitely the perk I have more of an issue with".
2 Survivor perks ;
1 : Object of Obsession
- Object is one of the most problematic perks in the game, it can often be a complete nuisance to Trapper, T2 Myers (with M&A), Freddy & Huntress while often times offering an extreme advantage to a SWF group that utilizes this perk to make callouts on every mindgame a killer can attempt.
2 : Unbreakable
- This is the one perk I think can turn a losing game for survivors into a complete win, with a maximum of 4 times where a game can be completely reset despite the fact that the killer has succeeded in their chases assuming everyone runs it. Other perks like DS are at least more excusable because of what it's meant for.
2 Killer perks ;
1 : Spirit Fury
- I get it, this perk has its counterplay which is to drop pallets early. The problem I have with this perk is that it's very stale in the sense that stunning a killer should be the correct play and instead you just get killed for it. Pair this with a map that has large deadzones like sheltered woods and you simply just aren't going to have a fun chase.
2 : Bamboozle
- People often say this perk is meant to stop extremely strong windows but often times it doesn't do this job correctly and is often just obnoxious to go against as it takes the life out of some chases. Shack for instance is one of my favorite tiles on both sides but this perk just shuts it down, deleting valuable gameplay while other times actually problematic structures like the one on Disturbed Ward & Mother's Dwelling feature multiple strong windows, making the perk worthless.
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@gatsby said:
Bleed out timer reduced to one minute.
Survivors can pick themselves up normally without perks.
Unbreakable buffed to 50% recovery time to compensate for being less special.
Slugging games are no fun for anyone and usually no one pips
This is not a good idea and here is why ;
- Reducing the bleedout timer to one minute means that the killer can just camp your body until you're dead, now you've had less fun and died quicker too.
- The ability to pick yourself up would make killers like Oni & Myers worthless as they're pretty much built on the idea of applying tons of pressure through slugging as they're snowball killers. This would also heavily weaken infectious fright while completely neutering knock out.
- Unbreakable is already an insanely strong perk, infact it's the most game changing perk in the game as it can single handedly turn a losing match into a victory against a good killer. Now you want it so this perk picks you up even sooner ontop of the baseline ability to pick yourself up. If anything, unbreakable should probably be nerfed.
- Slugging is a key part for allowing good killers to pick up map pressure especially in rough situations where there simply isn't enough time to hook someone. These ideas would make way more matches completely unwinnable, especially on already rough maps like Ormond, Haddonfield and any Coldwind Farm map.
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From my experience I find him to be a slightly weaker (if not same strength) but more fun version of Hillbilly. He can keep the pressure going thanks to his great chase potential and mobility when he's in his power. For being as good as he is in a chase, he's also pretty fun to go against barring a few examples such as being on a really open map like shelter woods.
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@LetsPlayTogether said:
Slugging isnt outplaying survivors. Its outdoing basic game mechanics and just scummy play as killer. The only thing that needs to be fixed is that slugging shouldnt be possible like it actually is. Its not fun to lay on the ground half the game til a sweaty killer got his "will".
Slugging is outplaying survivors, infact the whole reason why slugging even works is because survivors made the mistake of grouping up giving the killer multiple targets in their line of sight.
Take Myers & Oni for instance, their powers are built around the idea of slugging to snowball the game into their favor (though Oni does it better). Oni for instance literally loses his power if he picks someone up which encourages slugging. Perks like infectious fright and deerstalker help to slug. Not only this but countering a flashlight/pallet save requires baiting people out which in return leaves the original target slugged on the ground. Lastly slugging is encouraged by a mechanic called sabotaging which while it's rare it will force a killer to slug for a short period of time and not only this but slugging can also be countered by unbreakable and no mither.
Sure it isn't fun to be slugged but with maps being the way they are currently it's the best tool killers have to properly apply pressure in a match.
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Love playing as ;
- Oni
- Spirit
- Demogorgon
Dislike playing as ;
- Nurse (I just suck with her, that's my only reason)
- Clown
- Freddy
Love playing against ;
- Huntress
- Hillbilly
- Oni
Dislike playing against ;
- Hag
- Freddy
- Clown
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To me the speed of gens doesn't seem to be the issue as increasing the time spent on a generator just makes the most boring part of the game even worse, that and good players will still get out leaving only the new or bad players behind who weren't the issue in the first place.
Ideally the right solution is something completely different which comes down to fixing the size of the maps to make generators more realistic to manage and fixing how safe certain maps (Ormond, Rotten Fields, Disturbed Ward) can be either due to a structure or the layout of the map itself which would made chases feel more fair as well.
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@THE_SMASHER said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1055018#Comment_1055018
Iri head I agree. Mori's...eh, I'd say keys should be nerfed first. Mori's have a huge downside to them as it is. I don't think killers get sacrifices from them, which means if they mori someone, they will prolly not rank up. Mint rag is fine...once you know she has it, it shouldn't be an issue to go against it. I never have issues anyway.
As for instasaw...I don't think thats a thing anymore? tinkerer was changed, which is what made instasaw "insta"..
Well, some people don't really care about ranking up much in the first place which is why that's on the list, plus often times you'll just pip anyways from a normal match which means it makes it pretty fast to recover from one match of running a mori. However I do agree that any changes done to a mori should be met with changes to keys.
As for instasaw I pretty much just mean the closest you can get to it as sometimes it can feel bad but even that shouldn't come with a nerf to the numbers but rather just not letting them stack so that other addons can be used with it instead such as engravings, turning speed & cooldown addons. Luckily it seems that the people who run double charge speed addons on Billy tend to not be good so even that isn't the biggest issue on the list.
Lastly I only list Mint Rag purely because of the camping potential with it, it tends to lead onto incredibly boring matches where saves cannot be made more than anything else.
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@ppo8820 said:
In your opinion which killer needs to be nerfed or reworked next? My vote is hillbilly but I also think a few others could be toned down. Thoughts?
None of the basekits of any killers are overpowered in the current state of the game, the only thing that killers have which should be addressed are the following ;
- Iridescent Heads
- Mint Rag
- Ebony & Ivory Mori
- Instasaw Billy
Baseline Hillbilly is widely considered as a balanced killer among the more experienced players and while other killers like Spirit, Freddy and Hag can feel annoying (seeing as other comments are saying Spirit and Freddy) nerfing them is not the solution because the issue is that they're oppressive, not the fact that they're too powerful.
With that being said, there have been a decently high number of nerfs for both sides which span over the past few updates and rather than focusing on the next thing to nerf I think it's better to just focus on the quality of games for both sides by changing maps and improving the baseline game experience, even buffing the weaker things on both ends for more interesting options.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
The Game has too many safe pallets, and has not enough windows. Am I doing this right?
yep, that's a perfect response
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@TheLegendDyl4n1 said:
My main problem with it, and how to possibly fix it
- Legit he always has a way to find me by following the red orb road?????? i feel the only way to fix this is to make it so if you have no mither you dont drop blood orbs because lore wise its right because in the definition of no mither it says "You are affected by the for the duration of the Trial. Your thick blood coagulates practically instantly." so i feel it shouldn't let you generate blood orbs.
Other perks that counter other killers
- it's kind of like how like calm spirit is a counter to the doctor because you never scream no matter what, he might know your in the general area of him if he sees he got bp for madness tier up(when he uses his static blast ability), but other than that it is a really good counter to him because you can still drop pallets and vault windows if you are using it.
- Another great counter is Iron Will against Spirits, After Spirits hit a survivor they tend to listen for grunt pains but thi is hard countered by Iron Will, now Iron Will might be a good counter for all killers but not as hard as it is for spirit.
Possible way to allow oni's to still get blood from people running no mither
- Maybe as a way to still allow No Mither not to be such a big counter to oni they could make it to where if you hit someone with No Mither then it's like hitting a health survivor, where you get blood from it. since your blood is so thick and hasn't been falling out of you even though your injured.
The oni's add-on "Renjiro's bloody glove"
- I am grateful that if the oni is using the add-on that has survivors absorb blood orbs he sees your aura for 2 seconds that i can't absorb the orbs, but that makes no sense, i feel i shouldn't generate orbs but with that add-on be able to absorb them from other survivors.
my usual survivor build
- I legit put my team at a huge disadvantage when verseing a oni for it, and dont say just dont run no mither because i like it, my usual build nowadays is No Mither, Resilience, Dead Hard, and Spine Chill. Please change this for a quality of life change for people like me who run no mither.
message for the mods
- P.S. please dont move this post to the feedback and suggestions because i am trying to have a general discussion with other people, i dont see mods moving discussions out of general if its talking about ruin changes or something similar that they dont like
conclusion
- What are everyones thoughts? should this be aloud? any other possible ways to solve this problem?
While I do agree that it can feel bad to drop blood orbs because you're running no mither, the perk in itself is meant to be challenging and you're pretty much asking to be at a bad disadvantage just by running it. However despite all of this, no mither provides a great advantage against Oni which is the fact that you cannot be left slugged on the ground. Now, I'll provide three reasons why I believe no mither should be allowed to keep generating blood ;
1 : Sure you might leave more blood around which gives Oni his power more often, but what makes his power strong is that it turns him into the best slugger in the game and he can't do that when you have no mither as otherwise he losses the pressure he gained from his power.
2 : Oni's power is what makes him fun to play as, and in my opinion I also find it fun to play against unless you're on an open map. The whole reason you play a specific killer is because you either enjoy their power or you have a daily and when you make a perk nullify a power, you take away from the people who enjoy that power. Now while I can see you've made a compromise where you can still gain orbs from hitting a no mither player, you would also need to ensure this doesn't cause issues with other perks like deliverance & second wind (or any other perks that apply the broken effect in the future) and when paired with dead hard (when used for distance) you'd basically just deprive the killer of their power for a very long time which ends up not being fun. This is the issue Plague has where she's good but incredibly boring because of the fact that not many good players cleanse.
3 : It's just a game at the end of the day. While the logic may not be sound where you don't bleed with no mither but still produce blood orbs, there are many other things that don't make sense but are still in the game. When you start changing things just because you try to make the game make more sense, you take away from gameplay. Let's look at a few other examples where the logic doesn't add up ;
- Leatherface & Hillbilly cut you in half with a chainsaw yet you don't die.
- You can be hooked multiple times and still run around just fine.
- Paranormal killers in general.
- Clown's addon flask of bleach doesn't cause terrible harm to survivors or himself.
There are many more examples but I believe this gets to the point.
I can definitely understand your point, however these are the reasons why I disagree with such a change.
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@gamerscrybecauseofme said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1011419#Comment_1011419
I am not convinced in the slightest that maps need altering. The small maps are a joke, it's almost a guaranteed win when I load in. No real gamer wants guaranteed wins, they want challenge. Of course, they don't want to be walked over either, but I still hold the position that only bad killers get walked over. Just because we can pip into red ranks, doesn't make us any good at the game, which I know most of the community sees. For me, good at the game is the killers ability to end a chase with a hook v the survivors ability to keep the killer busy without going down/escaping. Make ranks based around that, we get a better reflection of who the top players are.
As for the data, I can only go with the data presented. I wish we could see more and that maybe there was a forum page that listed all kinds of data on all kinds of things, at least it would debunk some of the myths about gameplay that are thrown around the forum (gen rush happening all the time, survivors all use DS, Head on, BT, Adrenaline bringing torches and toolboxes with every possible scenario planned and ready to be actioned) Because that's just not real.... Sure, stats aren't a great reflection of things, but they're better than the mind numbing complaining that happens about the slightest inconvenience. Great stats are about quality of data, if DbD wants to continue improving, it needs to collect more data so it can accurately make changes and adjustments for the betterment of the game.
The game can NOT be balanced around the extremes. It needs to be low key at the start, then get progressively challenging based around your actual skill level, not your ability to do what your meant to. The game needs to be balanced around player skill, there is nothing in game that reflects that, so no reliable data can be used to improve the game, which is why we get ######### adjustments. The only balancing act I agree with, is BHVR wanting the balance play around 2 kills, 2 escapes. It just doesn't know how, because it doesn't collect the right data.
I honestly don't think the game should be wanting multiple survivors on a gen, especially at the start. Yes, I am fully aware that each survivor working a separate gen is the most efficient, before perks and toolboxes anyway, but gens falling early can negatively affect some killers, no matter how trash I think they are, but as gen rush is as undesirable as camping or tunnelling (less frequent too), they should address it, just not with base gen speed.
I am going to disagree with the whole weaker killers thing. The problem is, there's too many overpowered killers that completely rebalancing. When solo queueing, I already know it's game over when Freddy, spirit, Billy and gf are in the trial. Yes, matchmaking and rank system play it's part (the amount of red rank survivors that get exposed by gf because they don't look behind them is quite alarming) but these killers need serious reworks to bring them in line with 2k kill/escape average per game. Then we can look at "Weaker Killers" to improve them. Making such killers as strong as Freddy and spirit, isn't going to help the community, it's going to drive survivors away.
Well, I think we can both agree that the ranking system is in great need of improvements if it's to do its job properly however I do not believe we will ever get a perfect rank system for this game purely due to the fact that it's way too unique in comparison to other games to really get an idea of where to begin or how to even properly judge someones skill in the game.
As I believe I've mentioned in my previous post, I've also agreed that the game shouldn't be balanced around the extremes however it's still very important to acknowledge the frustrations some of these groups can bring especially with some of the brutal perk and map setups that can occur.
However beyond that I can see that our stances on killers & maps are vastly different and to that I'd like to say that neither one of us will manage to change the mind of the other. However I will say that I do not believe any killer is OP at the current state of the game, there are some annoying ones but the annoyance some of them cause should not be mixed up with their actual strength level. Some of my best matches are against the strongest killers like Hillbilly, Huntress & Oni because I believe that in the case of Hillbilly & Huntress at least, the best player wins the chase and they have fair counterplay that any player can learn.
Maps on the other hand are in heavy need of altering, even if you cannot agree on the idea of shrinking the maps there are others that simply have setups that are way too strong. For instance Rotten Fields & Ormond have tiles that all chain into each other, Disturbed Ward features the strongest middle structure in the game (often referred to as an infinite or near infinite loop), etc. This is not to say that maps don't occasionally screw survivors either because I also understand that RNG can seriously ruin a match on gas heaven and the incredibly weak pallets on Hawkins can be annoying. Maps across the board can and should be improved in reasonable ways to ensure interactive gameplay for both sides.
Lastly while you've provided a decent point on solution #2, I've still not heard what it is about a small map that you don't like nor have you explained why the killers you've listed are overpowered. I can at least understand people being annoyed about Freddy or Spirit, I can see the argument that could be made for Billy against a solo group but I fail to see how any reason can be made for Ghostface being too strong. I think lastly it's important to take a step back as you made a point that too many players are able to pip up to rank 1 too easily on both sides, don't you think that would have an influence on the strength of these killers and their killrates?
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@gamerscrybecauseofme said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1008891#Comment_1008891
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1008900#Comment_1008900
Ok, forgive the harshness of responses. It's because you're literally complaining about things that are few and fair between.
Changing things to suit the minority, affects the majority too. Making maps smaller because some gamers struggle in larger maps, means that you make it even easier for everyone else or even harder for survivors to escape. It's not about making massive changes because some things happen that you don't like. You know, take the loss and learn.
Your specific question about clown, I have no idea how you play. I find the clown useful at mid range. I know when a survivor sees me, they have 3 options...
1) Head for wall/pallet loop
2) straight line and 360/juke
3) do something else that gets them hit
At higher gameplay, it's go for loop. I know the loops, I know their entries and exits. I get 4 bottles to chuck so I can already cover most exits, then it's just mind gaming the survivor into a hit, recharge my bottles as they run away, towards another loop, repeat, same result. What's difficult about any of that??
If the survivor straight lines me and goes for jukes/360s, cool I don't lunge anyway! I hit them they run away, I fire bottles at the path I don't want them to take and hit them with one, easy 2nd hit. What's difficult about that??
The 3rd needs no explanation...
Increasing base gen speed to counter a rare scenario isn't healthy. There are too many games where survivors get trounced, the data even indicates that trials favour killers more as it is! Seriously, no base gen speed changes.
Just because someone is a twitcher, YouTubers or other content streamer, isn't a great reflection either. Most are rubbish gamers, I have played against them as killer or survivor and with them as survivor, the ttv means nothing, beyond a show of their self confidence.
1.7% of gamers....I want to see the data on all of that. The numbers produced there are me applying simple division and personal experience. I would MUCH prefer to see the actual data on all I said there, as that will be interesting and enlightening.
You ask for me to post video of gameplay, conversely I could ask you to do the same. As much as you claim streamers get stomped, they also do lots of stomping too! Survivor and killers.
When I play survivor, solo I am kinda #########. If I double team, I know I will be saved and there's some tactics, triple team we can be annoying, 4 man squad is always the best advantage, but that depends on the killer too. When run the meta, we squash them. When they run a more tailored to their playstyle/killer perks, it's tougher for us, sometimes we get ass raped and only do 3 gens, other times we leave GG ez, friend request to the killer.
As a killer, I will admit that it's far too easy playing against solos, no matter the rank, made even easier now the deranking system is appalling, when really ranking itself needs a complete overhaul. Conversely, I will admit that my toughest games come from 4 man squads, yes I still win most of them, but I have to non stop pressure and it's less "fun" more precise and tasking. I have to run perks/add ons that allow me to keep pressure. I don't have a "main" but I do well with any killer, including your clown and the ever changing legion. I refuse to play with spirit/Billy/ghost face/Myers/nurse (but after what they did to her, no shock) because it's no fun, it's ridiculously easy with those killers, easy isn't fun.
As for throwing a tantrum. All of these posts about gen rush or other survivor strategies, are exactly that. You're all throwing a tantrum because you played less than optimally against optimal players. I have NEVER been gen rushed, ever. It's certainly been on, 2 gens pop fast..., 3rd not long after, while I have only seen one survivor. But it didn't end in a ######### walkover. I see 4 toolboxes, I am bringing Franklin's, overwhelming, a gen watch and a gen damage perk. When i see secret offerings from survivors, I know what they're trying to do and adjust accordingly. As gen rush relies on survivors being as far from killer as possible, they do outside gens. It means they leave themselves open to 3 or 4 gen patrol strat, Which is then fun, because one tries to be a distractor, but only serves as a pallet waster. While my perks allow me to track what gens are being worked on. Granted,there's no 4k for me this game. But I ain't black pipping, I am leaving with 25k plus, everyone had a tough game, GG, nice attempted gen rush, friend requests sent.
I hope any of that helps. It's not my intention to cause arguments. It's because I strongly disagree (as ibdobwithbmost killer gripes) with the idea that gen rush is happening so often, it needs a game wide rebalance to fix. It's why I like the suggestion that survivors suffer a harsher penalty for working on gens together, the more gens there are. If they don't want to make it part of the game, make it a perk instead. It loses power as the game progresses, do isn't OP and it doesn't really affect the majority of normal gameplay.
Thanks for the better response here.
I won't really focus on the Clown part of this as that was to help Brendan get a better response however I will respond to the rest of the post.
Let's start off with your first point ;
I agree that gen times shouldn't be increased specifically due to the fact that it's the most boring part of the game anyways and because there are better solutions (such as re-balancing maps or bringing the weakest killers more on par with the better ones).
You also bring up that the killrates are in favor of the killers, however I think it's very important to point out one change that was made around the time of these stats which I believe has caused some problems for both the matchmaking and the killrates. 3.2.1 introduced a change to the SWF matchmaking where it's based on the highest ranked player which means if you're rank 1 and have one, two or even three rank 17 friends then you're all considered red rank players and put into a red ranked match. I believe this has caused killrates to be higher than they should be while also causing the issue of high ranked survivors & low ranked killers being unable to have quick queue times. If you pair this with the rank reset change of 3.4.0, you're basically going to end up with a scenario where killers will have more kills (or more frustrating matches in the case of new killers) because everyone is getting pushed up into the ranks without any reasonable way to get out of those said ranks. The devs have also stated that their stats shouldn't be used to draw conclusions either, though they are at least interesting to see.
Now with the whole "1.7% of players" part, I honestly don't think there's any reasonable way to actually track how many players play at the very best level because there are simply way too many factors in this game for both sides, whether it be luck (map, kobe's, window/pallet counts, perks, offerings). There's a lot of things that would skew the results which would make it an absolute nightmare to figure that all out.
Now, should the game be balanced around the very best players in the game for however high or low of a percentage of people that is? No, infact I don't think that's exactly possible with the way this game is setup either, however I think it's still important to understand the frustrations people on both sides can have when they're in an unwinnable circumstance. This doesn't mean that improvements shouldn't be made however.
Lastly, I don't see the issue being that multiple survivors are stacking onto the same generator, infact I believe providing incentive for survivors to group up is a great way to allow killers to put on more pressure in a trial. The issue that I see is that the optimal way to play (around generators anyways) is to have all 4 survivors split up, which is somewhat manageable on a small map like coal tower but impossible on massive maps (such as Mother's Dwelling, Rotten Fields, Disturbed Ward, etc...) or incredibly safe maps (such as Ormond, Cowshed, Rotten Fields x2, etc...), or maps that are both. While you might disagree with the idea, I think the best way to address a large majority of the frustrations on both sides would be the following three ;
1 : Improve the maps. Doing so makes it more manageable for the weaker killers and if structures are properly addressed then bloodlust can be removed, making it better for both sides. Smaller maps additionally provide more interaction between both roles which I believe would make games more fun.
2 : More incentive should be given to let people group up. One idea I had at one point was to increase the time of doing a generator alone, but pairing up with another survivor would make gen times faster and the exact equivalent of the most efficient speed we have now (without toolboxes). Though, I haven't worked out the numbers on it. This solution would make games go at the same speed but gives more strength to perks like discordance & prove thyself, while also making Legion better for instance.
3 : Improve the weakest killers (if you ask me, that'd be Clown, Leatherface, Legion, Trapper & Wraith). Bringing them more on par with the basekits of other killers brings more variety and more variety makes matches more enjoyable overall because it isn't the same few killers all the time. Though the improvements should be made in a way where they're enjoyable to go against like (in my opinion) a good Huntress or Hillbilly who for the most part are super fun to go against.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1005430#Comment_1005430
The number was an exaggeration obviously there are no real statistics.
My point was that when I face a Hillbilly 90% of his hits are instadowns with the chainsaw. This isn’t true for LF, GF, Oni, and its rare Myers would do it but if he did he would be delaying a lot of chases for stalk.
I get that’s his power but when practically every hit you get on a survivor is an instadown maybe, just maybe that’s a tad overpowered?
The way that I look at it is that it's a good thing if a killer is constantly able to use their power because it means their power has purpose, infact I think it's a sign that other killers (mostly Leatherface out of the instadowning killers) could use some help if they aren't able to use their power to good use as often.
The reason why I say this is because a power is what sets a killer apart from all the others and keeps the game interesting. If a killer had to use their M1 attack most or even around half the time then the gameplay becomes bland because every killer would just be using their M1 attack. I enjoy facing a good Hillbilly, Huntress or even Oni because it's a nice break from Legion, Clown, Leatherface and all the other killers who either have boring powers or simply just have to M1, thus producing basically the same if not lower quality gameplay.
While I understand your point (especially with the larger hitboxes), I've found it way more frustrating to just constantly get new people on my team despite being at a rank where I shouldn't be paired with them at all which is where I believe the whole annoyance of him being able to down person after person comes from.
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@gamerscrybecauseofme said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1008271#Comment_1008271
Lol talking like you get optimal survivors in every game. Half of games are swf, so that's blown your crybaby nonesense out the water. So, with the remaining 50% who are swf, we will split into 3 groups, 2man, 3man and 4man. We will give them equal share (unless someone has data) 17% (rounded) of the 17% of 4man swf, you seriously trying to say that they're all survivor fiends that play to gen rush only? Because that's a fat no! It's my experience that even 4man swf are 🥔 too, I would easily say that 90% of my games end in an easy 4k, leaving 1.7% of players that fit anywhere between 3k and 4 man escape, or attempted gen rush. That's a tiny amount of games.
So yeah Git Gud. Stop tunnelling and camping. Anticipate their move. Mind game. Run non meta perks. Or, you know, play survivor, see how easy it is 😂
I mean, they never brought anything up regarding SWF, nor did they ever complain about the game. Brendan brought up a basic point which is the fact that the majority of killers cannot be in multiple places at once. Not only this but you also accuse them of playing in a specific way when you do not even know how they play in the first place.
To me this doesn't really seem like a great way to have a discussion of the game nor do you even mention how a killer such as Clown can keep 4 survivors in check.
Sure, optimal survivors aren't the most incredibly common thing to see but I can't really imagine anybody feeling good about a scenario you can do literally nothing about no matter how rare that is which is where I believe their concern comes from considering the example they gave.
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@jordirex said:
Or a very good billy surpasses her, even if billy is more loopeable.
My experience tells me that even in tourneys, playing Huntress is a very good option considering other teams bring billy
Huntress is really strong in loops, less loopeable than billy, long range hatchets can count as map control.
I see good billys struggle more than a top Huntress because we all know what to expect when playing vs a billy, is a m1 killer with a chainsaw. Huntress, on the other side is less predictable, and still, even if someone reads everything, there are situations on which you will get down anyway, because there's no room for safety.
Billy one shoot ability can be avoided by good players, if the billy is good at turning in loops and stuff, he can still be countered if the survivor is reading his play. Being catch in the open is not something that will happen to a good survivor unless he is unhooking. In overall, Billy is way more loopeable.
Does billy fantastic map control outplay Huntress potencial in loops?
Does a Spirit outplay both of them after a novice player spends a couple of hours practising her with high end headsets?
Nurse is the other tops tier killer that we can consider. But right now she can be countered by just full W and almost nobody plays her.
Freddy is still a m1 killer, you can drop pallets early to play safe around his power while others rush him.
Huntress is about as good as the survivors you're against allow her to be and is also highly map dependent. I personally think that Nurse, Hillbilly, Oni (from 3.5.0 and onwards), Spirit, Hag, Demogorgon and Freddy are better and here's why I think this ;
Although Huntress has a strong chase power, she's a 4.4 m/s killer which means that she becomes highly susceptible to large maps (think Rotten Fields, Mother's Dwelling, Disturbed Ward), strong structures (Grim Pantry, Wretched Shop, Haddonfield, Badham) and is highly reliant on having a map that actually gives her proper LoS to make plays that would actually allow her to be good.
In addition to this, players who know how to play around a Huntress generally know a good number of tricks she can pull off which allows them to easily run one on a chase for a long time. Meaning if somebody knows how a good Huntress plays, you're now just a 4.4 m/s killer with an occasional zoning tool which is especially true on super safe maps such as coldwind farm. To top it all off, Huntress gets crippled by Dead Hard (for distance or to make up for losing a 50/50 mindgame at a pallet/window) and Object of Obsession which makes it so she can pretty much no longer make any cool shots on the person with the perk.
This is why I believe (if played well) that Nurse, Hillbilly, Oni (again 3.5.0+), Spirit, Hag, Demogorgon and Freddy are better. Nurse, Spirit and Hag in specific can make plays for themselves without waiting for a survivor to make a mistake. On the other hand, Hillbilly, Oni, Demogorgon and Freddy all feature some form of high mobility along with a chase power which can allow them to pressure a game way better than Huntress can in the average match, this is also not to forget to mention the fact that all of these killers have way more perk synergies than Huntress too, providing for more unique playstyles.
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@Spooky13 said:
As someone who doesn't use Ruin or many slowdown perks in general while playing lower tiered killers like Wraith and Legion, it's more of a 50/50 chance, usually dependent on what items survivors have, what map we're on, and if my Devour Hope survives long enough to get some mileage out of it. Probably just some bad luck, or the new matchmaking thing putting you within 6 ranks of you, meaning a green rank killer can be put with a 4 man SWF red rank group.
The thing is, pretty much every month I've made my way up to red ranks and never ran into the whole "4 man gen squad" people talk about on here, I'd say it's probably bad luck on my end but it's just been constant bad matches for the past 2 weeks.
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@CrummyCookie said:
Sorry but it isn't. What else should survivors do? Totems and hope the killer has NOED and you're not wasting your time? Walk around the map exploring? They are doing the only thing they can. I see both sides to the argument. For killers they don't get to play the game properly and doesn't give them enough time to kill survivors. But for survivors it's boring. Doing gens for 4 minutes then leaving. But to say gen rushing is a thing is a bit ridiculous because just getting on with the objective is what you're meant to do.
Well here's the deal, I think the problem with the "gen rushing" term is that it's loosely thrown around. Personally I define gen rushing as any of the following circumstances ;
A : Survivors completely ignore every interaction in the game with the sheer intent to only interact with generators, even going as far as leaving their teammates to die on hooks to get the generators done. At the absolute worse, these survivors will also be completely immersed to guarantee no interaction with the killer whatsoever.
B : Multiple survivors bring in toolboxes and spread out optimally, once again ignoring interactions like healing, totems and chests which are clearly in the game to be interacted with.
As a person who has played both sides, I've been on the receiving end of games where I've literally been left on the hook to die the first time I've been put on it because my teammates only wanted to get generators done even when the killer isn't camping which has happened in a handful of matches. It's perhaps one of the most obnoxious experiences you can get as a solo queue or playing with one other friend.
As a killer, I've rarely had matches end extremely fast but scenario B does still happen which leads the game to end prematurely. Is it the survivors fault for scenario B? Not necessarily, but I do believe that the weaker killers in specific should be given more tools to apply pressure in these scenarios.
Basically the whole gen rush issue can suck for both sides but for different reasons and while with at least scenario B you can't blame the survivors, I do believe something should be done not for the pure sake of balance but rather for the sake of fun. A game that lasts 3-4 minutes isn't fun no matter who is in favor of that.
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@CrowFoxy said:
Can we don't nerf her again thanks.
I don't exactly see where the goal of my post is to nerf her. There are some aspects of her that would be changed but everything is met with changes to compensate for it such as the lower cooldown and higher duration.
@LlamaArmour said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/863690#Comment_863690
The only reason I'm an advocate of lower survivor sounds is because as things stand right now all she has to do is phase to the last place she saw the survivor and she either
1) Sees scratches and can follow them till she hears the survivor.
2) Doesn't see scratches thus meaning the survivor is close and she can search she area till she hears them
3) If there is a vault nearby and you can neither hear or see the survivor then just leave phase to see where they are and get your power back in approximately 5 or so seconds.
The problem with louder whooshing sounds is that if the survivor is injured its still gg unless you have iron will, and it also means that stridor would still make it very easy to triangulate the survivors position.
People say she's fun and unique but coming from someone who has put a fair amount of time into her it's just process of elimination to figure out where the survivor is, which is not a guess for her as people seem to think it is (or if so its an educated guess).
I definitely disagree with her having increased movement speed or longer duration though as I feel she is plenty fast as it is, unless the intermittent blink happens fairly frequently (in which case would be too much of a nerf for her in my opinion). Also, if you made her faster/phase last longer you would be buffing her because irrespective of the survivor knowing roughly where she is, there is still very little you can do about it with her being so much faster than you.
Very interesting thread so far though, I would also agree that I don't want her to be gutted and I want her to remain as a top 3 killer, but just to give survivors a little more of a chance, (particularly when injured)
Fair point on the sounds then, I'm fine with decreased volume while phasing so I'll add that to the post.
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@LlamaArmour said:
This is pretty much the same idea I had, except I think the spirit/survivor should only appear to each other twice at base and maybe be breakable with addons.
The reasoning for only once or twice is that too much information on where she is will just kill her power but a glimpse into where she is will make the mind game even stronger because you can fake running in a particular direction.
Something to note though is that her own tracking needs to be lessened, maybe if survivor sounds were 50% more quiet OR scratch marks appear slower (both exclusively while in phase), otherwise it would be a buff to her (she could just phase to where she last saw you and follow the scratchmarks/sounds).
What do you think about these slight tweaks?
Sorry for the late response. I wasn't exactly too sure how many times I wanted the phase to allow her to flicker in and out. You do give a good point, but it's hard to say without any real method of testing this. I do however agree with doing something about the sounds, but rather than decrease the volume I believe her whooshing sounds should be louder.
@DelsKibara said:
I would agree only if the intermittent Haunting is missable if you blink. So you have to really really pay attention to see her. Though, I feel like if the survivor is close enough to you they shouldn't be able to see you phasing intermittently. Not close enough within TR, but close enough like 12-6 meters or something from the husk. Which would force the survivor to either abandon a loop (If the Spirit is phasing on a loop) or stick around guessing whether or not she is phasing.
Once you're outside the range you'll see an intermittent image of her if she is phasing.
I don't mind the charge animation either, but only if she also does it during her normal idle animation randomly. Like @Skaraok said, psychological manipulation is part of her core concept. So making survivors second guess whether or not it was a real phase is why I wouldn't mind this change, if it is also a part of her normal idle animation.
One other thing I might add is maybe instead of making her duration longer by 1 second, you make it faster by like 5-10%. Duration addons aren't all that useful if I have to be honest, so giving Spirit more duration doesn't sound like that much of a payoff. But hey, if a duration increase is for the better I'm not going to argue with that.
I thought increasing her speed rather than her duration and the reason why I went for duration instead is because it allows her to cover more distance especially with the fact that both parties would be able to see the position of each other, allowing for more time to confuse the other player or to further assist with mobility. With 10% extra speed you only cover 37.2 meters, with 1 second of extra duration you cover 42.24 meters and it's slightly easier to react to considering that she isn't moving as quickly. Either option could work though.
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@HamdaN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/847007#Comment_847007
go watch any big killer content creator. they do just fine. most of the complainers are awful at the game
Even the best killers in the game eventually complain or find something in the game they dislike, being bad isn't necessarily causation of complaining as everyone does it. Of course it makes sense that a content creator that plays the game for several hours a day is going to do way better than the average player because it's literally their job (in the case of streamers). They'll still have rough games though and they will even admit that there are some games where you simply cannot win even if those cases aren't exactly common.
That being said, while I do think camping is very unfun, you shouldn't base your opinion of all killers just because of the ones that camp the hook. Some killers actively make it their goal to play as nice as possible for as long as they can by leaving the hook immediately, not tunneling or camping and for the most part don't typically run extremely powerful addons and those are the killers who are in line for a rough game despite wanting to ensure a more enjoyable experience for all 5 players in the trial instead of just themselves.
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To explain my vote a little bit, the issue isn't that Spirit is too strong. For instance, I believe that current Nurse and Hillbilly are stronger yet for the most part they're both fine for the current state of the game (aside from the instasaw addons on Billy) which is why I believe the argument of "this killer is too strong" or "this killer is too weak" isn't what should be the focus.
The problem with Spirit is that there is no counterplay and there is no feedback to what she's doing when every other killer in the game has a sign or even multiple to indicate that they're using their power or might be performing a mindgame of their own while with Spirit nothing visibly happens that allows a consistent way to outplay a good Spirit which for the most part makes her incredibly unfun to face for the majority of the players. I guarantee if she was given a change that allowed her to retain her current strength but cracked down on having to guess everything she does and gave feedback like every other killer does, the amount of complaints around her would drop.
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@Spirit_Hag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792357#Comment_792357
dude.....there are literally hundreds of threads laying out counters to spirit if you bothered to look. You think after a year and a half people have just been falling like flies to spirit with NO COUNTERPLAY?? come on now man be serious. If it helps, ill even send you some links my guy
Speaking as a Spirit main who has mained Spirit since her initial release last year, I can confidently say that she has no consistent counterplay outside of the use of perks.
While certain perks can certainly alleviate the frustrations of going against Spirit such as iron will, dance with me, lithe, quick & quiet and spine chills, there is basically nothing you can do against a good Spirit in a chase if you do not have these perks. The problem with this is that people do not like being forced to run something just for the chance that they might see it being used against them. It's like if you look at those threads where people complain about really strong structures such as the disturbed ward, haddonfield or mother's dwelling and the first comment you often see is "just run bamboozle 4head". The issue isn't if it should be strong, the issue is that it isn't fun and you're sacrificing your ability to play the game for fun because you get stuck in a situation where you need to run perks to handle major problems and aren't even really getting to play the game at that point. If we go to another example when MoM was originally released, you'd see people saying "oh, just play Hillbilly or Huntress" when the reality is that doing so just takes away a big part of the game. If we look back at Spirit, we end up seeing the same problem that survivors don't want to be forced to run something just like a killer doesn't want to be forced to play a specific killer or with specific perks.
Games are meant to be fun and the moment something takes away not just your ability to have fun, but the ability of many others to have fun and also makes people quit the game then that becomes an issue. You can have strength without oppressiveness just like you can have oppressiveness without strength, literally what Scott is suggesting here is to mainly keep her strength the same while taking away from her oppressiveness so that a match against her can feel like a game to all 5 players in the trial.
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@Nutty_Professor said:
So I'm a survivor main.
What I don't get is why experienced survivors enjoy going against inexperienced killers who barely know how to play. For me going against inexperienced killers are the most boring matches. Inexperienced killers often camp, tunnel, don't know how to mind game, are really easy to loop to the point where it's not fun. If you're not being chased your just doing generators all game.
Whilst I rather not constantly go against rank 1 Spirits with beads, I do enjoy going against decent/good killers. As being able to loop or juke a good killer is a lot more rewarding than looping an inexperienced killer.
Comment below your thoughts.
Speaking as somebody who mostly plays killer, I'd imagine it likely has to do with the fact that it could be a good break from seeing the same exact builds or even killers being used.
While I personally have way more fun going against good players, something you end up seeing on both sides is a lot of boring builds that drag on the games for ages or encourage a really unfun playstyle. While it's reasonable to want to delay the lengths of the game, I can at least understand that not everyone would want to run into that same exact build all of the time. I don't think people should try to go against newer players, but I can understand the decision to on both sides.
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While tunneling isn't fun, it's a part of the game and it's understandable as to why people might do it under some circumstances such as ;
- Every abusing windows on a map such as disturbed ward or mother's dwelling forcing you to only go after the players who aren't using them which can unintentionally lead to tunneling.
- The generators are nearly complete with the only way to maintain pressure being to kill someone off.
- A survivor has become a heavy annoyance to the killer (very subjective)
I don't personally agree with tunneling and try to avoid doing it as often as possible, however I can at least understand the reasons as to why people might do it. It's also important to keep in mind that newer players tend to do this without knowing any better.
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I think a totem counter would be a good change to help out solo survivors, however I also have a suggestion of my own that I didn't notice as an option in the poll ;
I believe that totems should be given a more objective reason to be part of the game rather than just being tied to hex perks. If we look at lockers for instance, over the past few chapter updates we've seen them receive buffs and perks to make them a bigger part of the game by allowing them to block auras, muffle sounds to make it harder to hear an injured survivor and perks such as iron maiden and head on which revolves around lockers. Inner Strength in my opinion was a great way to give totems more purpose but I believe that the next step should be giving a baseline reason to do totems rather than the fear of a perk or for the sake of bloodpoints.
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Before I start up, I will acknowledge that a good Trapper can do a lot of damage even to a good team if they're very smart with their trap placements, however I believe that Trapper is outdated as far as powers go.
As an example of the point I made above, Hag is considered to be objectively better yet not only does she have a higher amount of traps but she can also spawn with all of them and recycle them on the go to constantly change her setup to fit what's needed in the trial allowing her to do what Trapper does, but better while also benefiting out of insane mobility at the same time.
In addition to this, the combination of luck and one specific perk (dead hard) can often negate any well placed trap simply because the survivor either got lucky or pressed a key, forcing Trapper to pick up his trap to rearm it or to not get rewarded much at all if the survivor gets lucky and immediately breaks free.
The last issue is that the perk "Object of Obsession" completely slaughters him, if the survivor has any decent amount of experience with the game and has this perk, they can just follow the Trapper around and disarm his traps completely or just entirely ignore that area knowing exactly where his traps are placed, unfortunately no change you make to Trapper will fix this issue.
With that being said, I don't believe Trapper is in need of very many changes as some of these issues (IMO) seem relatively easy to fix. Here's what I would change about Trapper ;
- Allow him to start the trial with all of his traps and allow him to pick up all of them as necessary.
- Make it so dead hard does not provide immunity to bear traps.
- The current escape method for the survivors should be changed from depending on how lucky the survivor is to instead be based off of a fixed amount of time. As an example, the traps would guarantee needing to try to free yourself for 15 seconds.
With these changes in mind, it might require some quick changes to specific addons such as the bags or any addons that decreases the chances of escaping the traps, however I believe those would also be pretty easy changes to make.
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I believe that Hag is probably one of the best killers in the game and is the only killer I completely hate going against. Having played Hag a bit myself, I view her as a version of Nurse that doesn't need to aim considering that phantasms already face the direction of the player but requires strategical skill rather than mechanical skill to get much use out of her power.
People who believe that Hag is weak often look to her lower movement speed and do not understand that she is not played as a chase killer but rather a killer who you need to play smarter with to get downs with your traps.
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@Nyxis_Fier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/750920#Comment_750920
There is no "no" option because there shouldn't be. This is mainly for people who feel/view otherwise. To express without the fear of getting harassed by killers who feel so strong to keep it when they in fact don't need it.
That means that your poll is inherently biased and will not yield accurate results making it seem like more people want NOED removed rather than an actually neutral poll which would state a simple "yes" "no" "rework" option. By making a post that is asking people if they want NOED removed, you should have an option that says "no" because that gives you a more accurate look on what people think as otherwise, what's the point in asking people a question if you're just going to not even ask it and instead present 3 biased options.
Now mind you, I don't like NOED and would love to see it be reworked in the future to help improve the overall fun of the game but let's start off with a basic yes or no question first. They've even been adding more things to the game to provide incentive to do totems anyways such as the higher BP gains and the new perk "Inner Strength".
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@Mochan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/743383#Comment_743383
Well, I can't argue with that. But I think it's something that should be put on the table now that a cooldown is being introduced. A 4m/s move speed seems fair in my book so that Nurse still needs to rely on her blinks to win chases instead of just walking, but at the same time helps compensate for the downtime of the power.
Yeah, that's a good point. I guess we'll have to see, I'm not against it though.
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Possibly, however I believe that we should try out the changes first before going forward with such an idea as movement speed is still a pretty big deal.
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I personally believe that her strength alone is pretty solid and is actually relatively well balanced, however she's extremely oppressive which which is where I believe issues come in. Certain addons cause her to be both overpowered and oppressive.
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@Mr_Goodman said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/549/RU3U8GV3D3GM.jpg
When you can win by just tunneling and camping, it clearly shows that rank doesn't mean anything anymore. You can still pip so easily as killer/survivor, no wonder the matchmaking is so bad.
Honestly, ranks have never meant anything more than how often you play the game each month.
@Mr_Goodman said:
I forgot how killer sided the forums could be. According to the majority, the killer can do anything without consequences.
In addition to this, any player of either role can play however they like without any consequences for as long as they do not break the rules of the game itself. When a player buys the game, they may play however they want even if it's unfun for others.
Mind you, I do not agree with camping nor do I do it myself but overall it's their option to play as they wish, just like how you can play however you wish. Ideally every player would play in a way that's fun for the other side, but when a game has thousands of players on at any given moment, that can be difficult.
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@MegsAreEvil said:
The thread is so hilarious with all those who stil try to defend the nurse basekit. It has already been proven several times, that nurse with no addons is still not fair fight anyway. Stop lying to yourself for the selfsake to keep your OP killer, cause you arent able to play decent with any other non-OP stuff.
This is neither constructive nor does it convince anybody to change their perspective on Nurse. Anyone who thinks Nurse is fine is going to read your post and still think the same while anyone who thinks Nurse is a problem is still going to think the same.
You'd have better luck putting up a detailed post or response to explain why you believe Nurse is an issue rather than bashing people for having their own opinion from their own experiences. Not to take a side on this discussion, but I think it does help to actually try and have a discussion is all I'm saying.
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@Mc_Harty said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/728903#Comment_728903
I don't see any other killer using her add-ons do you?
Actually, Nurse currently has some really strong addons of which in particular are the ones that improve her range, charge speed, movement speed or add blinks or decrease fatigue. The only reason why you don't see people running addons on her is because she's one out of about maybe 7 killers that doesn't need addons in order to perform well which also comes with the fact that her addons are either worthless or way too powerful.
With the addon rework we're seeing here, it seems like they're aiming to change the function of the blink from what we can tell with the third addon they revealed which we cannot judge as an actual buff or nerf to her addons until we actually get the chance to try it out. On the other hand, we're seeing stronger penalties to her previously busted range addons as well. With that being said, we've only seen 3 out of the 20 addons she has and it would be completely unreasonable to judge this until we've seen all of the changes related to Nurse and her addons on the PTB and try it out for ourselves. I say this because what might sound good on paper, might not exactly be all that great in practice.
Lastly, there is nothing wrong with making Nurse more appealing to the newer players or even veteran players who have either never or almost never played Nurse and this is because the problem people have with Nurse isn't new people playing her. The problem comes from very experienced Nurse players who can wipe the floor out of any match, and if you're already very good at playing Nurse then you aren't even going to be using plaid flannel anyways, or even any addon for that matter.
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@arslaN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/720491#Comment_720491
I have almost a thousand hours at the game and this is the first time that I've heard that her husk can be destroyed.
Maybe I have to aim the flashlight lower while she is breaking the pallet since people are saying she can actually be blinded. Some of friends also said that they can't blind her so I don't know why this happens.
@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/720524#Comment_720524
You can't destroy the husk. More than likely what is happening is she is ending phase walk right as you hit the husk with the flashlight. I've thought this myself after seeing it, but then tested it and it didn't work.
My bad for the late response. I remember that I was able to destroy her husk with a flashlight and immediately hear the phasing before, unless anything has changed recently then this should still be possible. From my memory however, it definitely wasn't right as the Spirit was ending her phase walk.
Edit : This still works, I just tested it out - you have to aim the flashlight at the head of the husk and it will be destroyed.
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@arslaN said:
Seriously, why is this a thing? Flashlights are pretty much useless against her.
EDIT: I think hag can't be blinded while breaking pallets too.
As others have stated, Spirit can be blinded. In addition to this, nobody has brought up that her husk can be destroyed by shining a flashlight at it while she's phasing.
There might be a bug making it harder though if you genuinely can't blind Hag or Spirit, however I haven't gone up against either one of them yet as of this update.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
So normally for something to proc, YOU have to do something in order to get it to proc right?
When did a killer do anything to proc NO ED?
Idc if some of you have think it’s unbalanced/balanced but for gods sake stop comparing this perk to Adrenaline. It’s not.
The only instance I can see where Adren can become similar to No Ed is when the hatch is closed, but even then all you had to do was put your foot down on a door to close it.
My post earlier on actually explains how the two perks are extremely similar, meaning that you can compare the two perks very easily as they're both endgame perks that perform the same exact thing but for different roles.
You also forgot that in the hatch closing scenario, the killer has killed 3 other survivors in order for the hatch to be opened, found it and then closed it in order to activate the perk in that specific instance. Which mind you, if the survivor had adrenaline in that same scenario then they were just rewarded for failing twice in the sense of completing the gens and finding the hatch.
If you have a problem with one of the perks, you have a problem with both of them. This is why I do not run either one of them as they both feel terrible to go against.
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@jeyers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/709873#Comment_709873
That's also wrong.
NOED removes 2 health states on hit = insta down.
Adrena heal only 1 health state = if down then up to injured and from injured to full hp.
My statement says that it effectively removes a health state, so I don't believe you read my message correctly. When I said that NOED effectively removes a healthstate, it basically means that you're treated like an injured survivor at the end of the trial when active in the sense that you will be downed in one hit. If in the event that NOED brought you from the healthy state to being completely dead in a single hit, then I would've agreed. It's important to note that it isn't NOED that is making you lose two health states, it's the combination of the basic attack which does a single health state + the exposed effect that does another, meaning that once again NOED is only effectively removing a single health state.
Adrenaline and NOED are the same perk but for different sides.
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@jeyers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/708453#Comment_708453
You're wrong tho.
NOED rewards failure while adrena rewards winning.
Adrenaline and NOED are the same perk but for different sides, if you take issue with one perk but not the other then you are completely biased.
Let's take a look at what the perks objectively do.
NOED ;
- Activates after 5 generators are completed.
- Effectively removes a health state from all survivors.
- Can be prevented by cleansing totems or destroyed while active.
- Provides a 4% speed boost for as long as the totem persists.
- Will not work if the trial doesn't reach endgame.
Adrenaline ;
- Activates after 5 generators are completed.
- Effectively adds a health state to survivors running the perk.
- Cannot be prevented from activating in the endgame, infact the perk ignores exhaustion.
- Provides a 50% speed boost for 5 seconds.
- Will not work if the trial doesn't reach endgame.
As you can tell the two perks are nearly identical in concept and execution. 4x Adrenaline is the exact equivalent of NOED. Both of these perks are as bad as each other and are equally as frustrating as the other to be on the receiving end of which is where we go back to my original point - You cannot have one perk without the other, if you have a problem with one then you objectively have a problem with the other as they are the same thing but for different sides and that right there is where you are wrong.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I really don’t see OoO being a problem against Freddy. They’ll be asleep eventually and you can snare the hell out of them, then camp the crap out of them once they’re on the hook. No-one is using BT on that Obsession, and it’ll make them regret ever having equipped OoO.
Freddy will only ever have to worry about survivors smartening up and actually pairing OoO with SS, like it’s SUPPOSED to be, and those survivors actually refraining from being a cocky jerk and actually playing cautiously.
I don't believe you understood what I was getting at. However, before I clarify my point I must point out that with the recent changes I actually managed to go against a Freddy with OoO and looped him without any threat of being downed because there was no mindgames that the killer could've performed.
To clarify my point from my original post however, it doesn't become a matter of "can Freddy handle it", it becomes a matter of "is this good design?". If a player has OoO and they're against Freddy with the current oblivious effect, you eliminate any and all mindgame possibilities because you constantly see the killer which is the exact reason why the coldwind maze tiles got changed as they featured the same problem. Secondly, this creates a new problem where BT can no longer accomplish its intended job which will promote tunneling as when the survivor has deep wounds and is oblivious, they cannot do anything and will go down no matter what they do.
It's also important to note that if it's a big deal on Freddy, it will be even worse for other killers that could possibly pick up on the oblivious effect in the future such as in their base kit, by the means of addons or perks as they will also suffer the same exact problems.
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@PalletOrWhat said:
Since the nurse was released she has been by far the best killer in the game. As we know she will get some changes in the future. If they really listen to the community and take away her range AND the multiple blink addons... will Spirit be the best killer in the game then?
If u ask me: YES! Spirit is an extremly strong killer with ridiculous strong addons. Right now she is not as strong as the nurse. But if the nurse looses her huge advantage (range+more than 2 blinks) Spirit should be the best killer in the game.
What do you think?
People overrate Spirit a lot. Baseline Nurse is better than every other killer by miles even if the other killers happen to have addons, meaning that if they touch her addons then she will still be the strongest killer in the game and it's still safe to assume that with the information we currently have, they likely won't be touching the base kit of Nurse much or even at all.
Mind you, Spirit is extremely oppressive in a chase but has to pick between her chase and mobility vs Hillbilly who simply has more going for him without to pick what he wants to do. Oppressiveness does not exactly equate to strength is what I'm trying to say here. However if for whatever reason the actual base kit of Nurse was nerfed, then it might be reasonable to assume that either Spirit or Hag would be the most difficult killer to play against while Hillbilly would likely become the new strongest killer.