vampire_toothy
vampire_toothy
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@Mochan said:
Pig is a simply a casualty of the foolish EGC Change, something which no survivor wanted. I blame the idiots whining about hatch standoffs for this one.
The "ambush bug" is real, or even if it isn't under no circumstance should pig's ambush instadown. If it was instadowning people then it's only correct that it got nerfed/fixed.
The Terror Radius nerf is a nerf, but it's hardly anything to whine about. First off, smaller terror radius isn't necessarily better and second of all you can CROUCH so it's no big deal.
You're whining a little too much, I get that Pig is not in a good spot right now but you're reading a little too much into it. This is just the sad fact of the EGC. Nobody is out to get Pig.
I should point something out that you probably didn't realize at the time of making your post but the 4 meters actually does mean something for the pig.
1 : Pig's stealth is the only form of stealth that actually slows you down (to 92% or otherwise 3.68 m/s) making it harmful to stay crouched for long periods of time. This is unlike Wraith who actually moves faster while cloaked and Ghostface who is not hindered by his stealth unless he goes out of his way to crouch.
2 : To continue off from my point above, before the terror radius change you could just use whispers to know exactly when to crouch to minimize the time wasted by crouching. Now with the change you must run whispers with monitor & abuse, thus hurting her perk variety as two perks must be used to make optimal use of her crouching.
I would agree that the terror radius change isn't a big deal if it weren't for the fact that doing so decreases your movement speed. That's just something I wanted to point out.
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Monitor & Abuse + Infectious Fright (increases the range of IF as you maintain your terror radius at the end of a chase)
Brutal Strength + Fire Up (This isn't great, but it's funny when it works as when you zone people with these two perks, survivors actually don't gain much distance at all)
Deliverance + Breakdown (Very situational, but strong in some circumstances)
They probably aren't the best combos, but I find all 3 of these to be pretty fun and to work out in some cases.
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Nowadays the perk isn't worth running because it takes 32 seconds to self-care and other perks such as sloppy can increase this time to 40+ seconds making it take too much time in order to heal. Instead you might find better use out of these perks ;
- Pharmacy (1 quick heal, more if you're running this with ace in the hole and find an addon that adds charges)
- Inner Strength (when released)
- Second Wind (when released)
- Bond
- Adrenaline
Otherwise you can just bring in any medkit of your choice.
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@LonlyGamerX said:
If they take God lops away they are making survivors less wanna play cuz without God loops the game last less and there aren't that many
This would be a bad reason to allow certain structures such as the disturbed ward, wretched shop and fractured cowshed to remain the way they are. If anything, these loops allow two particular mechanics that exist which punishes players who play the actually balanced tiles and encourages them to just run to the super safe structures instead.
I don't believe that many survivors would actually quit because all fixing these structures would do is just make it so people can't hug the buildings with balanced landing and would actually need to rely on being good at mindgames in order to survive, which fixing these structures would also likely come with the removal (or a nerf) of bloodlust and possibly the entity blocker as they wouldn't be necessary anymore.
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@switch said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/624634#Comment_624634
I agree with the addons, spirit with addons is better than billy, but you're not going to have two purple addons everygame, thats 14k bp everygame.
Look at billy's addons they don't change the game as much as spirit's, why cause he already has the best kit in the game (excluding pos nurse), the most complete kit in the game mobility+1-shot, to argue with me on whos better is absurd.
And as i said looping isn't everything, spoiler alert: gen rush win games not looping, if the games would be atleast 10 mins, looping wouldn't even be a problem.
But what do i know: just loop him 4Head.
I hate to burst your bubble but actually you can run double purple addons every single game, not only this but if you burn a survivor pudding and combine this with BBQ then you can easily obtain at least 90k BP in a good trial which has easily allowed me to collect a pretty hefty amount of addons ;
This means that if I wanted to, I could burn both the wakizashi saya and yakeyoke amulet for 82 games in a row while also being able to resupply myself with more addons with the bloodpoints I earn.
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@Marcus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/623590#Comment_623590
Object of Obsession hinders you against Spirit, unless she is using Anal Beads.
What I listed are things that I've found to be useful against her, knowing if she is phasing or not is an extremely powerful tool to have especially if this is information you can relay down to a friend (assuming you're in a SWF). Now if you're a solo, yeah you're probably hindering yourself but then again you already hindered yourself from the start by being in a solo queue.
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I think that if we're judging the overall strength of a killer, Billy is better. If we are strictly judging chases, Spirit is better.
Billy is one of the most mobile killers in the entire game being able to use his chainsaw to go to 230% speed or otherwise 9.2 m/s, can mindgame at pallets by curving or tricking survivors by briefly charging his chainsaw while also not having much of a cooldown at all. While he is dependent on a survivor making a mistake, he is an overall better killer as he has more going for him.
Spirit on the other hand is slower and the mobility benefit you gain out of using her power for mobility is minuscule making it really only worth it to use her power in chases which she excels in. Unlike Billy she can't be all over the place and has a much longer cooldown.
Basically I consider Spirit to be way better at chasing, but the pressure she can apply is not as good as the pressure Billy can apply which makes him overall a better killer.
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From my experience I've noticed that the following are pretty helpful against Spirit that isn't Iron Will ;
- Spine Chills : This can help you know when Spirit is coming directly in your direction while phasing, although this probably won't do much against a good Spirit.
- Object of Obsession : I've noticed that when using this against Spirit, her husk seemingly does not emit an aura while phasing which is a very powerful tool, though this perk in general is very powerful.
- Dance With Me : Scratches are a good indicator to guide a Spirit on which way to go up until they can hear you, having a way to remove your scratchmarks is extremely beneficial. You can pair this up with Lithe along with Quick & Quiet, though you are using 3 perk slots for this combination.
- Poised : Same reason as above, although you have way less control over this perk than you would with Dance With Me.
Outside of perks, good windows can waste a lot of time for Spirit as going around them can drain her duration up, otherwise you have to rely on predicting what the Spirit will do which them comes completely down to how good the player using her is.
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I'm not exactly sure how this would become a must-have perk by any means? Could you elaborate on that more rather than just saying that?
@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
Self-care is balanced now.
You have unlimited healing charges and the price you pay for that is lot of time doing just that.
Med-kits can be faster and way less time consuming, however they are limited compare to self-care.
Self-care should not be buffed.
@Marcus said:
Healing yourself faster than healing others with Self Care + Botany Knowledge would be ridiculous and the matches would still go as fast as usually. Plus, the people who wouldd want to gen rush into Adrenawin could still do that tactic even after Self Care nerf.
These are understandable points, once again I'm pretty on the fence on it and wanted opinions on what people would think of this change nowadays.
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@FrenziedRoach said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/613832#Comment_613832
Actually, it is.
Have you heard of the n00b tube? the blue shell?
Low-skill high reward mechanics that keep the lesser skilled player in the game are an essential part of healthy game design.
If it isn't Moris or Keys, it'll be something else that people will be cursing as unfair while the skilled players ignored them in favor of something else more rewarding but requiring more work from them.
While I see where you're going with your argument, I still have to disagree.
Mechanics geared towards rewarding lower skilled players do not work out well with a game like this. The old legion was a strong example of this on the killer side of things while decisive strike and Mettle of Man were another two strong examples on the survivor side of things, both got reworked to be healthier for the game.
Instead, the focus should be put at removing these gameplay deleting items and in return help with the grind for new players and provide more in-depth tutorials to help new players catch up to the years of experience that older players have with the game. This would be a better solution to not only keep lower skilled players but also remove frustrating moments on both sides where all the effort put into your match ended up being for nothing.
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@FrenziedRoach said:
Keys are an essential catch up mechanic that will stay in the game.
FFS, they're such an outlier and affect so few games.
This is not a valid argument for keeping something unfair in the game. Both mori's and keys delete gameplay and completely change the direction of a game.
The mid to endgame is a time in most trials where the most amount of action occurs and often decides the outcome of a match, yet by me using a single item I can completely turn around the game by getting a free escape for not only myself but my other teammates without requiring any skill to use whatsoever.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/602190#Comment_602190
If they are repeatedly running away, they aren’t doing gens.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/602218#Comment_602218
The “no heal” play is risky though, especially if Legion has monitor. Add ons also make it hard for survivors to get away from a swipe.
At best you're only distracting two survivors for a very brief amount of time and only accounts for when the Legion is actually nearby, other examples can include a survivor who is far away and sits on a generator until you get up close. I consider Legion to be one of my more frequently used killers and by playing the new Legion a lot it's pretty easy for me to gain an understanding of how much or how little the power actually does in a match.
Not healing against Legion isn't actually that risky when you have massive maps like Mother's Dwelling, Rotten Fields & Temple of Purgation, maps like Temple of Purgation (again), Gideon Meat Plant or Thompson House that are full of safe pallets or maps like Disturbed Ward, Wretched Shop, Fractured Cowshed or Grim Pantry for instance that have incredibly safe buildings. Even on decent/good maps like most of the Autohaven or MacMillan Estate maps a good survivor can drag you on a chase for a while especially when you have no power outside of easily injuring survivors. While monitor & abuse helps the Legion get up closer, perks like dead hard and adrenaline makes not healing a very attractive option which often has a pretty solid payoff considering that you aren't wasting 32 seconds healing ontop of 15 seconds of mending.
Lastly, the only addons that can actually help Legion in a chase are the fatigue addons which only reduce it by 0.6/0.4/0.2 seconds (1 second at most by combining Cold Dirt & Joey's Mixtape). Even if we consider removing a second off of the fatigue the survivor still gains 3.9 meters which still gives 6.5 seconds for a survivor to make it to a loop which I can admit is helpful on certain maps, but on the majority of them you'll still be able to make it to a loop of some form of value.
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@Theluckyboi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/602218#Comment_602218
You can no longer down people with franks mixtape, i have already tested ir myself
Odd, that must've changed recently then - I remember trying it out on the PTB just to see how many hits it took.
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If we consider the power from how it's supposed to be used which is to chain attacks on multiple survivors to make them waste time, then yes the new legion is a buff to the old one.
The problem is that good survivors don't heal unless they aren't taking the match very seriously and this is bad for Legion because if survivors don't heal then Legion doesn't have a power other than to make survivors mend for 15 seconds. The reality is that although this is 15 seconds of a survivor not doing anything to progress the game, a large chunk of that time you just made is actually wasted trying to chain an attack.
Let's imagine a scenario you stab someone in Feral Frenzy and you go out to chase another survivor 8 meters away who happens to be running away in a straight line. A survivor moves at 4 m/s while Legion moves at 5 m/s in Feral Frenzy effectively meaning that you used 8 seconds to hit the second guy. Now let's assume nobody else is nearby, you now spend 2 seconds catching up and end your power after catching up to the survivor meaning that you will now waste another 4 seconds going into the fatigue which will mean the survivor gains 5.2 meters and you will not catch up to them until 8.66 seconds later. This means that without even going counting the time it takes to down them, Feral Frenzy has effectively only provided you 1 second to spare and if the survivor makes it to a loop then your power was literally for nothing and you have no impact on the chase from there other than to be a basic M1 killer.
To clarify, getting people injured fast isn't terrible - what is terrible is having no power outside of that for when people don't care about healing.
@Mc_Harty said:
People are upset they can't use the stab, stab, stab, stab, down playstyle anymore.
Unfortunately that playstyle is actually still possible through running the addon "Frank's Mixtape", it's just highly inefficient is all. That being said, I find that people are actually more upset with the long fatigue time and the fact that they have no power against injured survivors more than anything - not the fact that a cheap and unfair playstyle was removed.
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@CoffengMin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/597388#Comment_597388
well the anti-camp perk becomes the camp perk in those situations, funny right?
If someone is consistently camping even when they have BBQ then they are defeating the purpose of running the perk in the first place and would be way better off running perks that actually help them camp. It's like if all 4 survivors ran adrenaline and made it their goal to just run directly into the killer and die instantly rather than doing the generators.
BBQ is perfectly fine for reasons I've stated in another post (which you can read below).
BBQ is fine. Make no mistake, it's a very good perk but it's by no means OP and infact helps improve the quality of a match.
BBQ & Chili is not OP because ;
It has clear counters to it. You can run distortion, go in a locker, be within 40 meters of the terror radius or mindgame it.
The chase is easily the most fun part of the game and by using BBQ you do not gain any advantages in a chase, it only simply allows you to get into another one sooner or make plans based on the information it gives you.
It has a clear requirement to use by rewarding players who can down and hook survivors, the only way a killer actually makes progress in a match which BBQ does not provide an advantage for. How often you get to use it completely comes down to how good (or bad) the survivors are and their playstyle.
BBQ isn't even the best tracking perk, at the hands of a good player whispers is way stronger by a landslide. At this point and time, I think infectious fright might be better in some cases too.
Let's also not forget that BBQ provides clear benefits to the quality of the match and your ability to progress in the game and this is because of the following ;
Stealth is a complete snooze, good killers and survivors tend to enjoy the chase way more and BBQ allows for that to happen, thus allowing more interaction between the two roles. More interaction makes the gameplay way more interesting.
BBQ promotes leaving the hook to find new survivors by giving you information and rewarding you with more bloodpoints. Nobody likes being tunneled out of a match within the first two minutes, this at least provides a way for more teammates to take the weight off of the person on the hook rather than just being an urban evasion blendette at the corner of the map.
It really helps with the grind which is only growing as more chapters get added, thus adding more perks and requiring more points.
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@prayer_survivor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/596643#Comment_596643
"BBQ promotes leaving the hook to find new survivors ". That's not true. If the kiler don't see you sometimes he wait near the hook. Also, if I want to be seen I can do a rush action, a fast vault or I can run towards the killer, but I do it when I want.
"It has a clear requirement to use". Not true. Hook someone is not a requirement. If it were true, MoM has requirements too.
"BBQ isn't even the best tracking perk". BBQ is by far the best perk in the game. No killer or survivor perk is half good than B&C.
My wording clearly stated "promotes", not "guarantees", if you want to hide your aura so the killer stays by the hook then that's the price you pay rather than having someone actively distracting the killer. Another important thing to note is that if the killer camps then you can just hammer out generators with little to no risk involved at all.
Secondly, hooking a survivor is a requirement for the perk to work because the only way to activate BBQ is to hook a survivor, there is absolutely no other way to get the perk to work. One other clear difference is that BBQ's requirement rewarded a killer for doing their job which is to hook and kill survivor, similarly to how adrenaline massively rewards survivors for completing their main objective. Old MoM had a requirement but it was unhealthy because it rewarded survivors for failing to escape the killer and had absolutely no counterplay for most killers.
My last point is that you probably aren't that experienced with killer if you think BBQ is the best perk killers have by a long shot. It's a really good perk, but whispers, infectious fright and the enduring/spirit fury combo are way better in general in my personal opinion and in my own experience. Although, some perks that have good synergy with a killer's power can also be better than BBQ as well (think MYC or Corrupt Intervention on Hag, nurses calling on Huntress or PGTW & Thrilling Tremors combo on Freddy).
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BBQ is fine. Make no mistake, it's a very good perk but it's by no means OP and infact helps improve the quality of a match.
BBQ & Chili is not OP because ;
- It has clear counters to it. You can run distortion, go in a locker, be within 40 meters of the terror radius or mindgame it.
- The chase is easily the most fun part of the game and by using BBQ you do not gain any advantages in a chase, it only simply allows you to get into another one sooner or make plans based on the information it gives you.
- It has a clear requirement to use by rewarding players who can down and hook survivors, the only way a killer actually makes progress in a match which BBQ does not provide an advantage for. How often you get to use it completely comes down to how good (or bad) the survivors are and their playstyle.
- BBQ isn't even the best tracking perk, at the hands of a good player whispers is way stronger by a landslide. At this point and time, I think infectious fright might be better in some cases too.
Let's also not forget that BBQ provides clear benefits to the quality of the match and your ability to progress in the game and this is because of the following ;
- Stealth is a complete snooze, good killers and survivors tend to enjoy the chase way more and BBQ allows for that to happen, thus allowing more interaction between the two roles. More interaction makes the gameplay way more interesting.
- BBQ promotes leaving the hook to find new survivors by giving you information and rewarding you with more bloodpoints. Nobody likes being tunneled out of a match within the first two minutes, this at least provides a way for more teammates to take the weight off of the person on the hook rather than just being an urban evasion blendette at the corner of the map.
- It really helps with the grind which is only growing as more chapters get added, thus adding more perks and requiring more points.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/593565#Comment_593565
@vampire_toothy Wouldn't it make more sense to remove the husk instead then?
After all, using LoS breakers to fake a phase is much harder to do and more costly when it fails. So I see no reason why it should be an audio cue instead of a visual one.
I don't know exactly how I feel about removing the husk, I think a better idea would be to give it a new animation when you activate your phase if you're looking for a visual indicator rather than an audio indicator.
I say this because the husk has collision which can bodyblock survivors, allowing for more skillful options that people should still be able to utilize. @NuclearBurrito
@Raven014 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/592038#Comment_592038
"I have an unpopular opinion" = "I'm not the entitled version of a survivor player". : D
I'm glad to know good survivor mains exist. : P
I think that your changes would overwhelm newer killer players. I'm sure many could adapt to it though.
Actually I'm not a survivor main, I probably play roughly around 70% killer and 30% survivor.
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@OrionsFury4789 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591747#Comment_591747
The problem with spirit is it really doesn't take skill to play her, anyone telling themselves different should try playing a lower tier killer to see how really skilled they are in chase, you don't have to know how to run tiles correctly to play her you can literally just phase and listen, also when you run stridor it makes iron will useless and she basically has no weakness besides a power cool down at that point , throw prayer beads into the mix and it should be at least a 3k everytime if the person playing her isn't boosted, so I guess my issue is that she's too easy to master and there aren't any true counters to her ability the match is literally controlled by the skill of the person using her and if they don't run tiles correctly it will be a easy win but if they even slightly have an idea on how to run tiles there's no reason you should be losing you have every advantage to end chases as fast as possible and high mobility for Gen control along with your physical body phasing in and out when not even using power for skilless mindgames, of course genrush is possible but not likely in the hands of a good spirit who knows how to end chases.
@OrionsFury4789 I would actually like to point out that without any addons, Spirit's mobility benefit is actually not that significant. In total, Spirit's power takes 6.5 seconds to fully use at a base - 1.5 of those seconds are spent standing completely still (costing you 6.6 meters of distance) while 5 of them are spent moving at 176% (7.04 m/s) resulting in moving 35.2 meters during those 6.5 seconds vs moving at the base 4.4 m/s for 6.5 seconds which would provide you 28.6 meters of distance. Sure, during that time you gained 6.6 meters of distance + the slight boost you gain from the reappearance, but that comes at the cost of not having your power ready when you get into a chase when you could've instead spent the extra 1.5 seconds moving without her power. Her gen pressure is only actually sufficient with addons (although her chase potential is still insanely good even without addons). So it's still entirely possible for a good Spirit player to lose because of gen speeds - it's just in the cases of chases that you generally cannot win unless you have a strong window to work with or specific perks (iron will, dance with me, lithe, quick & quiet) which is where I think my suggestion would help remove the whole standstill issue while promoting healthier gameplay.
Lastly, I don't think people give Spirit enough credit when it comes to how difficult it can be to use her at times. The people who just stand completely still at pallets make a bad image for most Spirit players which is where I'd agree and say that something should be done for that playstyle in particular.
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isnt the point of this game to do gens then escape? so why do killers complain about survivors doing there objective? it doesn't make much sence to me
There is a number of reasons why "gen rushing" is something people will complain about.
So gen rushing is when survivors actively ignore nearly every aspect of the game with the only exception being generators, meaning that they do not waste time doing chests, totems or healing, they may even additionally leave teammates on the hook for a while as means to keep pumping out generators. This can usually be accompanied by running perks like adrenaline or resilience which rewards this playstyle, toolboxes to burn through gens even faster ontop of that or run perks to either make being injured less risky (dead hard, iron will). You get the idea pretty much.
With this being said, let's completely disregard whether or not you win or lose and instead look at why people complain about it ;
- Survivors make it their goal to end the game as quickly as possible by doing this, when paired with long killer queues you'll find yourself waiting in a lobby for longer than you can actually play the game itself. This in itself is very frustrating because you aren't exactly getting to play the game when it just ends in 3-4 minutes and then wait for twice as long just to end up with another match that could swing the same way.
- The most fun part of the game is the chase and when people refuse to heal just so they can pump out more generators they're effectively cutting down chase times which takes the fun completely out of a chase. I like my chases to be decently long as I want to try and outplay the other player, you don't get to accomplish this when they go down before they even reach a pallet.
- People want to have variety. Unfortunately a good chunk of the maps are unbalanced which depending on the players, it sometimes makes it downright miserable to play killers such as Wraith, Legion, Doctor or pretty much any other M1 killer as they do not have the tools to pressure generators, especially if you're on a massive map such as Mother's Dwelling or Rotten Fields. When people ignore totems, generators, chests or play as optimally as they possibly can, they worsen this problem.
- It's the same reason why survivors complain about tunneling, camping, running broken addons or mori's - it cuts down your time to play the game, completely ruining the experience of the player(s) on the other side.
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Personally I find Spirit to be one of my favorite killers to go against as I love the challenge she provides and I like the fact that it challenges how I would normally play - however, I also do understand that I have an unpopular opinion when it comes to that and that most people do not enjoy playing against her because it feels like a guessing game to them.
With that being said, I find it very interesting that people are proposing to remove her collision while phasing when in reality it would only harm new spirits, buff experienced ones and do absolutely nothing to address the problem most players have with her.
To go into more detail, removing collision does not fix the bad feeling players get when a Spirit stands still and then hits them. Going further with this point, experienced players would gain the ability to do the following ;
- Cut through players to reach a pallet sooner, causing more unfair cases that would only build up more frustrations.
- Eliminates the point of bodyblocking because now you can't bodyblock for someone you've unhooked which would in return guarantee that person goes down which would promote tunneling.
- Cut through players to reach a window and then unvanish to bodyblock it, guaranteeing the survivor has absolutely no options where they previously could've used a window to cut time away from her power duration.
Essentially, this would be a buff to good spirit players and would only harm new ones who might get mixed up which would still be relying on the Spirit making a mistake.
Rather than remove collision, I believe there is a better solution. Below I will include a nerf to the power and an overhaul to the passive phasing to make up for it with the goal of encouraging more interactive gameplay for more users ;
- When you fully charge Yamaoka's Haunting, you play a sound at the start and end of your phase which gives players a clear indication that they are now being mindgamed.
Now obviously that's a pretty considerable hit to Spirit, so how do we make up for that? Overhauling her passive phasing, and here is how this would be accomplished ;
- Passive phasing can occur anytime you have at least 25% of your power gauge rather than randomly.
- Activating it is simple, you press control and gives the power icon a white tint to indicate it's in use and then return back to normal when it ends which can also be paired with sounds only the killer can hear. The duration should be something at or between 0.4 and 0.75 seconds long and take out 25% of your power charge.
- To prevent spamming it, passive phasing could be given a brief 2-3 second cooldown between multiple uses.
- Her two passive phasing addons "Juniper Bonsai" & "Dried Cherry Blossom" can be changed to either continue to increase the duration of the passive phase, or have it take less of your charge (so 20% or 15% instead of 25%, just as an example).
Now, I don't believe the suggestion I will provide here is perfect by any means, but I believe it would solve the problem people are actually having with Spirit while still keeping the parts of her power that is super fun to use and provide more utility out of passive phasing.
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As someone who mains both spirit and nurse (more spirit though) I feel like I can say how obvious the ability to teleport is unbalanced.
Spirit is mostly fine, the only killer I have an issue with is Nurse but with that being said I would like to point out the flaws in your suggestion.
- You cannot control the passive phase nor do you have any indication at all that it's in use, just randomly giving a speed reduction or removing the ability to lunge would just be frustrating to the killer while it would do literally nothing to address what people actually get annoyed by.
- The rate of which a person learns a killer is completely dependent on the person making it unreasonable to judge how difficult they are to learn based off of only your experience alone. In your case you mentioned that it took you longer to learn how to play Nurse in comparison to Spirit but for other people this can vary greatly.
With that being said, there are certainly addons that should be changed (Prayer Beads, Multi & Omega Blinks in specific) but I personally think that it would be unreasonable to make any crazy changes to Spirit as of currently and as far as Nurse goes - although I support changing Nurse, a rework would just kill what people found fun about her in the first place and instead I believe suggestions should be geared towards adding more counterplay instead.
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@miaasma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/577628#Comment_577628
i'm convinced you're a troll at this point, but i'll bite: what collision-capsule are you talking about?
nothing i said in my previous post was incorrect, so i have no idea which basic facts i'm getting wrong because, like every other post you've made, it's chalk full of vague platitudes and entirely devoid of substance. i explained what looping is to you, which you then sidestepped. i know what the game was upon release (i know what the game was like in the alpha, even), despite not playing it at the time. i'm an example of somebody who can maintain an understanding of the game despite not having played it through its lifespan, and you are somebody who apparently has played through its lifespan and has still managed to maintain such a crooked understanding of it
being partisan means your point of view is distorted; it has nothing to do with whether or not you can compensate for it. i don't need to have played the game in order to remain informed about what it was like two or even three years ago, i just need to know how it functioned and how it's changed since then, and it's a fallacy to assume i'm incorrect just because i happened to not be playing this game in 2016, all the while not pointing out any specifics. the game, fundamentally, hasn't changed all that much, things have just been adjusted (in both minor and major ways) in order to account for the direction the game has gone in as people learned how to play it. adapting has nothing to do with it; people dictate the meta by understanding what works, and the game is balanced around it. this is true of every game, not just dead by daylight. it has always been a game of killer finds survivor - killer chases survivor - survivor uses whatever mechanics are necessary in order to avoid going down. did the devs originally intend for survivors to use every pallet to its fullest potential before dropping them and wasting the killer's time? no, but survivors figured out that this was the smartest way to play and did that for them. if looping was an exploit, it would have been removed a long time ago, but now you have the devs using the term in live streams
the mental acrobatics you'd need to perform in order to maintain your position on this game is staggering honestly, but the "looping is an exploit" crowd has always been astonishing
I think what they're referring to is the fact that there is a slight difference in collision size for killers & survivors. If I'm not mistaken, survivors have a 0.4 meter collision while killers have a 0.5 meter collision? I don't fully remember the numbers however this difference is also what allows survivors to slip through spots that the killer wouldn't be able to pass which would actually be an exploit unlike looping which is just playing the game.
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Nothing changed about Nurse as you said (well, apart from being able to blink up/down), but what did change was the game around her.
Nurse is crazy in the sense that she is very strong in chases and in pressuring the map due to her high mobility which used to be fine considering how different the game was if we compared 2016 or 2017 to where we are now. So what changed in that time?
Well, since the earlier days of the game we've seen that a lot of the maps have been improved with the main problems just primarily being problematic main structures and the lack of ability for basic M1 killers to apply pressure. Since that time has passed, Hag received some solid buffs that made her completely viable, we got Spirit and we've always had Billy (although the map changes did help him perform better than he used to IMO).
On the same note, the same thing can be noticed with Huntress where she didn't change much but the game around her did and made her worse as a result when each of the newer maps don't really allow her to do well and the maps that used to be good for her now have way more objects and LoS breakers on them.
Basically, the state of the game is what changed and as a result more people don't think the current Nurse is justified.
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So it was already established with Legion, that vaulting windows like a survivor is something a Killer can do. But why can't The Spirit do it?
Spirit is perfectly fine as she is currently (this is speaking as someone who mains Spirit) for where the game stands at this moment. That being said, a solid window is one of the few things that you can actually use against a good Spirit because they can give you enough distance to waste a good chunk of her duration. By allowing her to vault during her phase, you entirely remove the possibility of wasting her power and bring a whole new level of frustration to the survivors. If anything, old Legion should be a lesson for what happens when you allow a lethal power to vault windows and pretty much ignore pallets.
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@Odimm said:
Honestly, there are only slight changes needed and not a complete rework like some people imply. Here are the three that I believe would make him fun/viable again:
Shorten his cooldown - 3s sounds managable
Old vault speed back
Make DW bar go down while doing a gen - this is the biggest issue with DW right now as survivors just ignore it and do gens in your presence as you get looped by another one...
That covers the core mechanics, the pin add-ons should also be applied by 1 hit as 60s duration is already kinda short because you need to catch and hang them first to benefit from it.
Pray to BHVR
I can get behind these suggestions, that being said I'm not entirely sure if you think I'm supporting an entire rework here. If that is the case though I would like to point out that I don't think legion needs to be fundamentally changed, just that they should have a stronger utility from their existing power to make better use out of it in more scenarios.
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@Volfawott said:
The Nerf they were talking about was the fact that killer instinct no longer outlines the survivors it red it just does the pulsing effect.
It's not really a here or there issue and honestly it was only really massively beneficial on corn maps other than that the pulse was enough to know where the person was.
@bubbascal said:
Why is your topic getting more responses than mine? 😥 I made multiple topics linking to it as well in different places on this forum... I really wanted people to respond. 😫
Here it is by the way: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/58067/how-legion-should-actually-be-changed#latest
I completely agree with 1, that is what I suggested and had in mind this whole time, even before the nerfs. 2 and 4 are also good. 3... not too sure about that. That might get some valid complaints, sounds too good. Legion would have to have their slow base speed again to compensate for better Frenzy.
One reason why people DC against Legion, old and new, even if they didn't use any form of add-on, good perk on them, or exploit, is because their locations are revealed. Survivors are, in general, bad at the game and cannot loop. They don't know how to use Exhaustion perks (Sprint Burst is perfect) to completely escape Frenzy. They didn't know to just scatter to beat Frenzy EZ vs old Legion and they still don't.
Any Killer that cannot be countered with stealth, Survivors hate. Doctor gets DCs as well, from what I've heard. It is unfortunate, but true.
@Aari_Piggy66 I see, I didn't notice before. Thank you!
@bubbascal I'm not really sure, it might have to do with the timing as I made this post directly before Ghostface came out, so I'm thinking that it's mostly because people were looking to make more posts to give feedback on the new killer and stumbled upon this instead. I'd say it's just timing really as I've had other posts that just completely died out.
That being said, while some newer players might DC against legion for their tracking, I remember reading a post somewhere on the forums where a developer stated that the disconnect rate went down by 40% meaning that it's still a massive improvement in that regard.
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I would like the opinion of experienced people ...
I'm not sure if I would say if Legion is in a good place, but they most certainly are in a way healthier place ever since they did the changes to them. That being said, since the changes happened I've been able to play new legion a whole lot without feeling like crap over it which is great.
However, I do think now that we've had these changes for a little while that Legion could do with some buffs and adjustments to their power as where it stands right now I feel the following issues ;
- The power does not provide enough utility, tracking and making survivors have to mend is great but I feel like it just isn't enough especially if survivors never heal, I know that in a post I made recently I proposed a stackable movement speed bonus for each chained hit you get until your frenzy is over.
- Cooldown feels way too long, even getting an adjustment to both the movement speed and time would be great if we couldn't get a straight up buff in this area as 4 seconds just feels awful.
- Sometimes getting your power feels like it takes way too long, for something that isn't lethal it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that I lose 50% of my charge for hitting people with a basic M1 attack.
- Vaulting feels super slow and I feel like I actively lose distance if I ever do vault which makes this a serious problem at strong loops.
I think by them working on Legion in any of those areas would help put them in a good position as far as both strength and fun goes. However like I said earlier, I give credit to the devs for making Legion way healthier for the game now which was obviously a very good move to make.
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@prettyf said:
only i agree with 3,4 other things are make them plain op
they already easy to injure survivors with normal speeds
this time i will say you needs to adapt it
1 & 2 would not be overpowered and the big reason why is because the power is not lethal. If the power had the capability to down people by your own control then it would absolutely be too strong but that's currently not the case.
Infact if we consider it this way, Legion's current speeds allow them to only catch up to survivors that are 10 meters away which means your ability to chain hits is very limited without addons. This is because in 10 seconds Legion travels 50 meters in their power while survivors travel 40 meters in those same 10 seconds. The maximum speed proposal for stacking would require you to chain hits and be reset every time you end your power and would even then only allow you to catch survivors 24 meters away at most.
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@TheSpnbrm said:
These changes would definitely be a good change for Legion overall, although i'm not too keen on the idea of reducing his fatigue that much.
I would rather they give his fatigue CD add on's a slight buff instead of it being added to the base kit, if not simply so that it requires you to spec yourself to do so.
The main goal I want to accomplish with these ideas is to not need addons. I can definitely understand where you're coming from but generally speaking it isn't like having the cooldown addons as it's simply a readjustment to the values of both the cooldown movement speed and the cooldown. That's fair enough if you think that though as the cooldown addons do feel a bit lackluster nowadays.
@AhoyWolf said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/68793/new-legion-needs-improvements
They nerfed Legion again, now you have minimal tracking in FF, great. BHVR really hates Legion. At least it looks like it.
Doesn't look like Legion got nerfed, I played them yesterday and it felt the same.
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@Paladin_Goo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/536274#Comment_536274
The killer shack is an infinite, though. That's the thing.
An infinite by my definition is a loop that has the following requirements ;
- No opportunity to be outplayed by mindgames
- A loop where if the entity blocker & bloodlust did not exist you could loop forever without the killer being able to catch up.
At the killer shack there are some opportunities to eventually catch up or mindgame it, ontop of that there are 5 killers that with enough practice can turn the shack into a death sentence (So Nurse, Hillbilly, Spirit, Hag & Huntress). Of course if you aren't using those 5 killers the shack might be annoying depending on the survivor, but it certainly isn't an infinite by itself.
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@Paladin_Goo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/536245#Comment_536245
That's because it is an infinite. It's not even debatable. No matter how many times you spout your childish "nuh uh", it will always be true.
As well - I've achieved rank 1 killer many times, which is a lot harder than rank 1 survivor. Best not talk about being "bad" at anything, kiddo. That's an argument you have zero chance of winning. A circus monkey can get to rank 1 survivor. A demented one can get to rank 1 survivor with 3 of his friends.
It isn't hard to rank up as killer at all because pretty much anybody can make it to any rank by just dedicating time into the game. The only thing that makes it more difficult is when people just disconnect or certain killers who do their job too well and in return don't get enough emblems for it.
That being said, the killer shack is not an infinite and there are a few tricks you can do at the killer shack to mindgame it. Once the god pallet is gone, the shack is a death sentence. The problem is just the fact that on certain maps (such as the coldwind maps as an example) you can end up with some really disgusting setups where you have a bunch of loops that are fine on their own but way too powerful when combined.
Overall though, I'm pretty neutral on the fast vault changes because I can understand why they were made as you had people who were still able to fast vault in places where it shouldn't have been possible though at the same time I also don't like that it takes away from a skillful action that better survivors could pull off. I'd still like to see where this goes with the upcoming map reworks.
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@Mr_Digi said:
The entity blocks windows after 3 vaults... you have a perk that blocks it if you vault... They are reqorking the maps to make loops smaller... and now they break fast vaults.
Its the right direction to take if they want to kill their game. With a vault change noone asked for, they nerfed something that didnt need nerfing
Now, my key point is that I understand why the change was made as the areas that had a wall infront of them were not meant to be fast vaulted from those sides to begin with. It's a logical change and I'm sure when we see those map reworks then we will likely see some of the non-problematic loops be changed as needed. That being said, for the actual broken loops my point was that a perk or mechanic shouldn't be needed to deal with them as not only should those loops not exist, but the bandaid fixes usually also punish people for just being good at using actually balanced loops.
@Condorloco_26 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/533587#Comment_533587
This blade cuts both ways.
DS screws killers that don't tunnel, too.
Legion nerf screwed killers that didn't abuse the mechanics, too.
EGC screws survivors that didn't troll and were jerks, too.
EGC screws Piggy players, too.
And so on.
To be fair, everything on that list was better for the health of the game itself.
Yeah, not everyone abused Legion but they still had an unintended playstyle that needed to be patched out and so they did exactly that and buffed the intended playstyle. With that being said, I believe now Legion is in a spot where it's much easier to know where to change them from here.
DS does need some adjustments in my opinion, but it's way better now than with the old DS so I don't really mind if I get hit by it every now and then.
At first I was upset with the pig changes but at the same time, like many of these other changes they were done with the health of the game in mind to avoid situations where you were completely powerless as unfair mechanics or tactics were used to guarantee a win in those scenarios. Not everyone will win with these changes, but overall it makes the game way more enjoyable for a larger group of people which is a smart thing to do. I'd imagine the vault changes are in line with this and obviously of course it would make sense to change the balanced loops with this in mind as soon as the map reworks start going.
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@Mr_Digi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/533578#Comment_533578
i'm okay with the reworks, but vaults was never complained about. and now its #########... if you dont like windows... bring bamboozle
To my knowledge these changes were made because people were able to angle themselves in a way that would still allow them to fast vault areas where they weren't supposed to in the first place. Although I can see the possible frustrations with this change, I don't think it's a big deal.
That being said, with how I understand it perks like bamboozle and mechanics like entity blocker & bloodlust were all bandaid fixes to problems that couldn't be addressed right away such as the maps which was why when a lot of problematic maps got fixed up, bloodlust got nerfed. You also shouldn't be preaching for people to use bamboozle either because although it helps with certain loops, it also deletes gameplay at otherwise balanced loops such as the jungle gyms (LT walls, Long walls, etc).
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@AhoyWolf said:
What if his fatigue was increased after every successful hit with FF? When he doesn't hit anybody while in FF, his fatigue will be 2 seconds, but every successful hit will increase it by 0.5 seconds.
What do you think?
I think it's a cool idea, but it might make the power more complicated than people would like and may cause issues considering the fact that there is no cap to the amount of fatigue time you could possibly have. But another issue is that you would need to entirely reduce the cooldown addons to where they're useless or rework them into something entirely different.
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Short answer : Yes she can
Long answer : Spirit takes around 1.5 seconds to charge her power without addons and then moves at 176% (7.04 m/s) for up to 5 seconds and additionally gets a brief speed boost for a split second after her power ends.
This means that you lose 1.5 seconds of movement (which means you would've moved 6.6 meters while the survivor would've moved 6 meters) but in return you can move 35.2 meters with your power. So in those 6.5 seconds you gain 28.6 meters which is the exact same distance you would've gained by not using your power at all so far, however keep in mind that this does not include the very brief speed burst you get out of coming out of her power which can give you a slightly longer lunge than normal without any addons that change her reappearance time & speed.
Edit : I forgot to include the distance survivors gain for comparison. In those 6.5 seconds the survivor would've moved 26 meters meaning that with or without your power you would've caught up to them in roughly the same amount of time.
What this also means is that you don't want to use her power in the middle of nowhere as there isn't much of a point to doing so but you will still catch up to a survivor, but obviously addons make her way better and makes it more worthwhile to use her power in more scenarios.
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@miaasma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/528635#Comment_528635
my experience both playing hag and playing against competent hags is that they use a mix of placing traps as they run around and place traps at loops in order to zone people into those traps. a good hag can't really be looped but hag is slow and if you know not to stay in any one place for long she can be reliably played against
my issue with spirit is that whether or not you fall for her "mindgames" isn't really up to you, it's just up to how good the spirit player is
when i think mindgame, i think of a high wall pallet loop where the survivor can't directly see the killer and needs to predict based on tells (red stain, moonwalking) where the killer is going to be. if they predict correctly they get a loop out of it, if they predict incorrectly they run into the killer and get hit. what makes this a mindgame is that both players have to work to outplay each other
when a survivor is being chased by a spirit at a loop, she has plenty of tells to just react to; she can stand still and observe the survivor until they either run towards her (at which point she just moves and hits them) or away from the loop (at which point she uses her power and uses audio-visual cues to locate them). on the survivor's side, you have to effectively guess at what she's doing because you can't know whether she's using her power. that for me is where it stops being a mindgame and just becomes a guessing game. it becomes even worse when you're injured and the spirit just echolocates you while you try to move unpredictably
i think that's where we differentiate; you kind of are helpless against a good spirit, similarly to how you're helpless against a good nurse. i play on PC so nurses are everywhere and with the addons they have they don't need to be any good to be a waste of time to play against. spirit isn't as bad but in a sense is more frustrating because nurse at least can be mindgamed slightly by breaking line of sight and making her over-blink. the problems people have with nurse apply to spirit, just to a lesser degree because she is overall nowhere near as strong as nurse (no one is)
The way I look at Spirit is that her power is that when her power is used (not counting standing still which I'll get to in a bit), she isn't really all that different than a killer at let's say a jungle gym apart from the fact that she is a lot faster and that she doesn't need to change which direction she looks to mask her red stain. When I think of Spirit it's basically that she effectively turns every reasonable loop into a high wall loop as the survivor cannot see her position which is why I call her power a mindgame rather than a guessing game as generally the same opportunities exist especially if you have a window to use.
That being said, I think the only time her power is actually a guessing game is only when Spirit stands still or vaults a window (as her window vault animation is that she disappears and reappears at the other side). However, standing still at the very least for the time being can be countered by using a flashlight on her husk which destroys similar to how you can flashlight burn Wraith & Nurse or destroy Hag's traps. I do think that standing still is a little silly if you aren't running perks or items and although I do not think Spirit needs any changes apart from with some addons it probably wouldn't be the end of the world if there was an indication that she was standing still and wasn't using her power for an extended period of time.
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@[Deleted User] said:
All the people who keep claiming "SPIRIT MAKES THE GRASS MOVE" as a counter to her. Meanwhile, she does NOT actually make the grass move.
Kind of ruins all of the credibility on the counter arguments. How can you people say she's got counter play that you're preaching to high heaven if you haven't actually played against her enough to know the fact that the grass does not in fact move when she's phasing?
I'm not trying to say she's overpowered. I'm not trying to say she's badly designed, but do NOT incorrectly state that she has a counter by watching the grass move when she's phasing when that does not exist.
If she does not actually make the grass move then that's a mistake on my part, I remembered seeing the grass move the last time I went against her which is why I said that.
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@miaasma said:
tracking a spirit with environmental effects is pretty useless considering once she gets close enough to where you can see grass move you're probably already dead
on top of that i've noticed that her making grass/corn move is really inconsistent
Not necessarily useless as you can also hear the grass move, that being said though if she isn't consistently making grass or corn move then that should definitely be looked at.
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@miaasma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/527412#Comment_527412
i don't know if some selective reading is going on or if there's a legitimate cognitive dissonance happening here, but here goes
spirit doesn't need to "predict" anything because she has mid-phase tells; she has collision, she has audio (when it's working) and she has scratch marks, not to mention environmental effects like grass moving. none of that is "prediction". even nurse involves more prediction than spirit does lol
on the other hand, the survivor doesn't predict anything because the survivor has literally no idea what's happening at any point in time and has to guess based on how the spirit has been playing. that's closer to prediction but it's prediction based on nothing inherent to the killer
so in the survivor/killer interaction you have one side (the spirit) who has plenty of tools to figure out where the survivor is, and the survivor has 0 tools to figure out where the spirit is, or if she's even using her power. that is not well designed gameplay. one side is guessing, one is not. i have been saying this multiple times throughout the thread and people just kind of plug their ears while regurgitating the same "she's mindgaming you!!" points over and over again. i'm not trying to shame anyone for playing or enjoying spirit, i'm just telling you that she's not a well designed killer
Survivors actually do have a tool to track Spirit while her power is being used on most maps with the exception of The Game & Lery's. Survivors can see the same environmental effects that the Spirit can. By this I mean that Spirit still causes grass to move which can tell survivors where she is meaning that they're both equal in that regard as neither can see each other and both can see the grass move.
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@miaasma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/527231#Comment_527231
i already talked about this topic
to other people
you can read back if you have any questions
you have no credibility to begin with, i don't need to disprove anything
Except as you might've noticed, I took the time to bring up points other people didn't bring up and instead what you decided to do was to take a match from months ago completely out of context. That being said, I actually want to see better discussion regarding Spirit overall.
Here's the deal - I absolutely understand the fact that Spirit can be totally frustrating to play because unlike a lot of killers in the game she has a great advantage in most scenarios considering how her power functions. Infact I've had my own frustrations when playing against her particularly when certain addons were used such as prayer beads or the wakizashi saya addon.
Going back to my point, survivors aren't going to have fun when the killer suddenly has an insane advantage in at least some particular scenarios. That's why people either have or had a problem with the following ;
- Old Legion
- Frank's Mixtape
- Nurse
- Omega blinks & multi blinks
- Iridescent Head
- Instasaw
- Prayer Beads
- Rancor
- NOED
- Spirit Fury/Enduring combo
However, Spirit herself is fine and the only thing that actually breaks her and deserves changes is some of her addons. Otherwise without problematic addons in mind, Spirit unlike Nurse for instance doesn't get to use her great mobility & great chase potential in one go, that's a choice a player has to make thanks to the fact that Spirit has a cooldown on her power.
Ontop of this, there are absolutely ways to counter Spirit going off of the times I've played Spirit and the times I've played against Spirit, mind you that each thing I'm about to list off is not for the same exact part of her power ;
- Iron Will hard counters her phase making it much more difficult to be tracked. This one is a point others have already brought up.
- Flashlights destroy her husk allowing you to pass through it, meaning that if the Spirit is standing still and you have a flashlight you have a way of seeing if she is faking her phase or not.
- Dead Hard denies her from getting a hit if timed properly, effectively making her have to wait on her cooldown again. The only exception to this is maybe the wakizashi addon which I've already acknowledged.
- Strong windows hard counter her while phasing. Granted, really powerful windows are a problem of themselves however Spirit cannot vault while phasing meaning that you have an opportunity to outplay her with certain windows.
- Perks like Quick & Quiet, Lithe & Dance With Me allow you to make further use out of the counter I provided above as with the first perk she won't hear you vault, but not only that but Lithe was also buffed to not have a chase requirement while Dance With Me removes your scratchmarks.
- Edit : Someone else brought up spine chills, I honestly forgot this perk existed. This perk is actually great in general and works against everyone except T1 Myers. One trick you can do is run Spine chills and walk away from Spirit's direct LOS and if it lights up then she's phasing to you, if it doesn't then she's most likely faking her power.
Spirit can be frustrating, but she has counterplay and as I've said multiple times, she's fine thanks to that with the exception of a handful of problematic addons.
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@miaasma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/527219#Comment_527219
the last time i played against you you were a frank's mixtape legion, which contextualizes a lot of what you're typing in this thread
the "tricks" you can do with spirit aren't mindgames, the same way none of the other things are mindgames, so no, i didn't address them specifically. i have no obligation to just repeat myself to you when nothing you've said brings anything new to the table, sorry
Yeah I used the addon a couple of times at around the time Legion was released, infact I actually went through a cycle of using all of their addons as I wanted to understand which way I wanted to go with my suggestion on how to improve the legion & make them healthier for the game. It doesn't at all mean that I enjoyed that addon either, infact I found that I had way more fun playing them with double duration as a regular killer despite being 110% killer at the time.
To this day I completely despise both the current and old version of Frank's Mixtape and even made an entire post about how the old Legion was unhealthy because that required literally no skill. Infact I went against the new frank's mixtape the other day and still think it's unhealthy despite it being weak, however that is for a different post and is completely unrelated to this if you would like to talk about it another time.
Infact I strictly recall speaking to you after that match if you're who I think you are which means you're only taking that match (which again was roughly around 2 weeks after Legion was released) entirely out of context only to try and disprove my credibility as a player rather than properly talk about the topic at hand here.
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@miaasma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/527194#Comment_527194
haven't disregarded anything, just not repeating it for another spirit main who insists she "purely" comes down to the skill of the player despite her holding every card in every interaction with a survivor
i didn't come to this thread to convince anyone because i'm not delusional enough to think it's that easy, the same reason i didn't try to convince pre-patch legion mains that moonwalking had no counterplay. once people adopt a playstyle they'll defend it to the death, no matter how empirically bad it is for the game
she's not getting nerfed anyway because the devs also think she has counterplay, even though any good player who has played against her enough will tell you otherwise, so don't worry about what i have to say about it
Then you're simply refusing to discuss with people who actually have experience in using the killer and hearing their part, you can't really get far at all if you aren't willing to discuss with people who actually know the killer well. Infact you did disregard points considering the fact that I brought new points to the table such as the tricks you can do with her power.
I defend Spirit because in my experience of playing as and against her she is generally fine in most situations. Infact, the only thing that isn't fine about Spirit as I've mentioned is her very rare addons which are a bit too strong.
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@miaasma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/527155#Comment_527155
already addressed most of this and typing the same things out to different people is rather exhausting
her power is not a mindgame, it's a guessing game
spirit does not have a high skill cap at all. have good audio and know how she works, congratulations, you're a spirit player
survivors not only have to predict where you're phasing but whether you're even phasing at all. they have no tell to work with. it's not a mindgame no matter how many times you attach this word to her
You completely disregarded any points I made with a few of the tricks you can do with her, you also seemingly completely disregard the fact the Spirit does require skill especially considering that audio has been broken as of lately (which has been fixed in 3.0.0).
As someone who has mained Spirit for a long time she isn't that simple to master, she's just simply easier to pick up but what gives her a high skill cap is the following ;
- You can always improve with your ability to use her as you can never be perfect with her power.
- With the many tricks you have thanks to how her power is designed, you need to know the best situations to use each trick.
- You need to judge and adapt to how each survivor in your game is playing, if you cannot learn how the survivors are playing you will lose. Because there are lots of different ways survivors can react to your power, you need to know how to adapt to that.
- Although audio is very helpful, iron will can often make it much harder and so a lot of Spirit players actually need to learn how to last without it sometimes.
Unlike other killers, Spirit purely comes down to the skill of the player and the only thing that removes that skill is her very rare addons.
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@miaasma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/527105#Comment_527105
see, where i think we're at right now is what we consider "fair" is different
in your given scenario, if survivors knew when she was using her power and did things like vaulting pallets or windows, she would have to actually predict survivors actions instead of just standing there and reacting to it. there'd be prediction on both sides instead of just survivors having to guess. it would be a fair playing field and would actually involve skill on both sides
people don't want this because they are used to spirit "outplaying" people by default. it wouldn't be fair in their mind because they would have to actually outplay someone
fyi, i've played less than 10 spirit games in total since her release. i just have a good pair of headphones and i know how good players use them from playing against them a lot. nurse is easier to win with but requires more practice to learn than spirit. winning with spirit requires no practice, just a basic understanding of her power
for the record, i'm not trying to dump on spirit mains. spirit is extremely fun to play. i just wish games against her were less of a dice roll, i hope that makes sense
I'm gonna have to disagree with this. I think Spirit actually has the second highest skill cap right behind Huntress. While of course some people will learn Spirit fast you also have to keep in mind that the game has been out for a pretty long while and that her power isn't about timing unlike Nurse or having a precise aim like in the case of Huntress, it's about being able to predict survivors in order to either catch up to them, get a direct hit and maybe get some scares with her grabs (without prayer beads).
Some people might learn her fast to a decent level like I said, however mastering her is very difficult because there are many tricks you can do with her and generally there is no way to be perfect with her power either especially where sounds have been a bit unreliable as of lately (which are fixed as of 3.0.0).
For instance, one example of a way you can skillfully use Spirit is to use her husk (the body she leaves behind while phasing) to bodyblock a pallet, window or pathway to prevent them from being used which isn't something people seem to do often. Another example is learning just the right distance to be at in order to get a gen grab. Infact she also has another aspect to her power that rewards players for being good at spotting changes because when she charges her power, survivors turn white before disappearing making it sometimes easier to notice without even realizing someone was there before.
That being said her power is literally all about mindgames, sure she is favored by certain aspects like hearing sounds, collisions and seeing visible changes to the environment but that's because it would be way too difficult to always predict the survivor's location each and every time without those. Her power is a mindgame because for the most part you both still need to think about how both of you are going to try and predict each other except in this case it also applies to fully visible or even otherwise safe loops which most killers cannot do without some form of a high wall.
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@Riddick said:
I like some of these suggestions but I still think that what is mostly necessary is for his power to actually do something to injured survivors. As it is, regardless of the remaining of his flaws, his power is completely useless on a chase. Not even useful for mind games. You can find a group of survivors on a gen, hit them all with your power and they will still stay in the gen to finish it because you can't do anything to them anyway while in Feral Frenzy.
While I can definitely understand that Legion's power doesn't do much against injured survivors, some of these suggestions are actually geared towards improving that by still giving you incentive to chain hits for an increased movement speed and making the fatigue less painful to deal with. Though staying injured isn't necessarily a problem exclusive to Legion and I think because of that I think making it so being injured is more threatening would be more fit for another suggestion.
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Legion & Spirit.
Frenzy all 4 survivors so they're injured and then cause hell with the phase walk :)
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So i feel like alot of people dont like blodlust and it makes chases booring and no mind games at all in it so i feel like blodlust should be removed and make it into a perk so that people who feel like it is needed it becomes a perk tbh.
Bloodlust is a necessary evil in the game currently as otherwise a number of already strong loops would become actual infinites meaning you would have no opportunity to actually catch said survivors.
When broken maps like disturbed ward, wretched shop and fractured cowshed (to name a few, there are obviously more problematic maps than just these three) get fixed/redone to where the broken structures cannot be abused then we can actually talk about bloodlust being removed overall.
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There are some things I enjoy about a few maps in general.
Lery's for instance is generally one of my favorite maps which is why I'm glad it's getting fixed up in the next patch. An example of a detail I like in the map is the monitor in the center and the screams it plays - I think that's a nice detail.
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Yeah, I'll admit. I'm into the clown- Don't judge, alright? He's just the right amount of challenge and fun for me. The only downside is that I borderline suck.
Odds are you'll likely have some difficulties winning with him as he isn't that great.
That being said, there are some tricks that I think do help him out a bit. For instance in the killer shack you can throw a bottle at the roof from the inside and cause the gas to cover the entire building because the gas spreads out when it falls allowing for more usage out of his bottle. This trick can also be used at loops that have walls or some form of a tall object hugging a loop (like a generator or a tree)
Some players (not all) will try to run around the gas bottles to avoid the slowdown, if you notice then then I would recommend throwing them in a way where the gas blocks off the path to a jungle gym or whatever loop they're trying to get to as it might lead them away.
You'll also want to run perks that help minimize the distance survivors gain, for instance you'll want perks like brutal strength & save the best for last as when combined with the bottles the survivors will gain barely any distance.