vampire_toothy
vampire_toothy
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I've always been curious to know the numbers behind each of the addons for the killers as "slightly/moderately/considerably/tremendously" really don't tell you that much so my question is how much do the speed addons affect Spirit & Wraith?
By this I mean by how much is their speed increased and what does their speed become when you add their speed addons together?
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With this rework the speed was reduced and the duration was increased but we were not given numbers to just how much these two aspects of legion's power was changed.
Can we get some numbers for these changes and do they allow you to more effectively chain hits than you could before? I ask this as where Legion is right now you need to get super lucky to properly chain hits and where this rework looks to push players to play Legion the way they were meant to be played, duration and speed are the two most important changes to nail in this entire rework.
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Everything from the rework looks good except this The Deep Wound timer progress is no longer reduced by regular Feral Frenzy attacks. This completely renders Legion's power useless, catching survivors with Power won't work anymore since you will get stun every time after you use your power, and you need to wait until its fully charged, can't see Blood etc seems a bit overkill.
These changes were better for the health of the game much like the changes we saw for DS - with these changes they fixed the ways that we weren't supposed to play Legion (spam frenzy & moonwalking) and instead made direct buffs to the intended way of playing Legion which is to chain hits and stall the game.
It's fine to not like the changes but I think before we jump to conclusions and say "refund us" we should see how these changes play out on the 23rd when the PTB rolls out.
Edit : Also keep in mind, you can't expect a refund after you've used a product enough. If you've used it enough, then it has served it's purpose as something you pay $7 for.
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@Carpemortum said:
@vampire_toothy I think you misunderstand. Legion was a 110% killer, NOW they're a 115%. It was increased.
Unless they also edited frenzy speed?
My bad, I was not talking about the changes in base movement speed as that was increased. I was talking about the changes to the feral frenzy movement speed which apparently was significantly decreased (despite the fact that there is only a 17% difference between 115% & 132%)
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I personally like a lot of the changes made to Legion but I do believe that the reduction in movement speed was unnecessary as I don't believe that was what people were so frustrated about. That being said it's good to see that there won't be able more people moonwalking or spamming the frenzy to down people.
For the duration changes though, I'd like to see how much the duration actually got increased by as that part will be very important for whether or not he can actually chain hits more with these changes in mind.
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The reason is simple, this game is built on the idea that every match is supposed to be different where 4 survivors end up on a random map against a random killer with random perks/addons so that there is always a different experience, ideally this is what we should end up with.
Problem is, we aren't in that ideal circumstance where every killer is equally as good and because of that people often complain about only getting hillbilly, spirit & nurse. The complaint however generally isn't that they're strong (with the exception of specific addons) but rather that you don't see other killers getting used. If you look at killers like Clown, Doctor, Leatherface, Trapper & Pig they get curb-stomped by competent survivors especially on a bad map like let's say disturbed ward or the coldwind farm maps.
For me, I like to play as many killers as I can but where I dump most of my bloodpoints into Spirit, Wraith & Legion I often just simply cannot afford to keep getting addons on my other killers as many of them are addon dependent. Having a lack of variety means that both sides are going to end up getting bored faster because the gameplay will generally be the same. Viability should be kept in mind for both killers and perks while fun should be kept in mind for actual base-game features (and to an extent, both killers and perks should be fun to deal with).
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/415131#Comment_415131
I'm pretty sure the MoM counter is to hit them again... then if they heal you'll see them also. I guess if occasionally dealing with a bt type mechanic that requires stacks for the survivor to use it is truly game breaking then I'm just in the wrong here. I mean spirit is technically an m1 killer who is by no means "weak" and could easily deal with it.
That's not a counter, infact that's the entire purpose of the perk in the first place - to get another hit. That's exactly like saying "just get hit with DS to counter it" (pre-nerf).
Like old DS it requires no actual skill to use and punishes the killer for doing their job all while rewarding the survivor for losing the chase and just like old DS it puts a solid amount of distance between you and the killer due to the weapon wipe + speed boost with the only difference being that you can't even run enduring to help the situation.
MoM is an awful perk because it punishes the weaker killers that already struggle (for example trapper, clown, pig, leatherface and doctor) all while the two best killers (Hillbilly & Nurse) totally negate the perk, though Nurse is due to a bug. If you only want to see frenzy spamming legions and hillbillies then this perk is exactly how you end up with just that which the last time I checked, people want more variety in their games.
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Personally my problem with MoM is the fact that it's too easy to get for how good it is against the majority of killers - it uses the backwards logic which is to punish the weaker killers while being countered by an already overused killer (Hillbilly).
What I would like MoM to become is a counter to the instadowns nobody likes.
Basically this would be my rework to MoM ;
Everytime a survivor is instadowned your perk gains a charge. When any teammates have been instadowned 3 times your perk is activated and the next hit that puts you into the dying state injures you instead.
With this idea in mind we can even make the perk multi-use as well or adjust it even further as it would become the clear counter to unfun addons like Iri heads, counter perks like devour hope, NOED (which already has a counter), MYC, haunted grounds and killers like Hillbilly. With this suggestion you can keep MoM as a strong perk without ruining the M1 killers unless they put themselves into that scenario with addons or perks.
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For survivors : Feng Min (Either Ash or Dwight will be next)
For killers : Spirit, Wraith, Hillbilly, Doctor, Huntress, Myers & Legion.
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Mother-daughter ring is a tricky one, its drawback requires you to be more accurate at predicting the survivor rather than tracking them. STBFL has always been one of my favorite perks to use on spirit to cut down the distance as much as possible so personally I'd recommend either combining it with more speed (to cover more ground faster), duration (to make up for if you lose the survivor or for more mobility like with the speed addon) or activation time (to absolutely minimize the distance lost as others have said).
@Hoodied said:
Wait, cannot remember, does that add-on stack?
Also, I believe all the addons for spirit stack with each other. It's why you can get some fun combinations like Katana Tsuba + Wakazashi Saya or those two passive phase addons.
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I think I've found my new main survivor. (I sorta just skipped to page 5 so I might be repeating some things).
What's also interesting is that Dave has confirmed the new survivor will have voicelines, custom outfits you can get in the shop (with different hand cosmetics). This means that this is the first licensed character with more than just a secondary outfit. I honestly can't wait.
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The problem with this is the fact that if you removed the hatch opening on DC then people would just hide until you give up which isn't very fun to deal with at all. Disconnecting in itself is a problem while the hatch is (while controversial) perfectly functional.
When it comes to the hatch it's better to just take the 3k and go onto more matches to enjoy as otherwise if the hatch didn't work the way it did then you'd be spending over 20 minutes finding some immersed survivor that is doing literally nothing which is far more annoying than any situation the hatch can bring. (except for keys which if someone is dead, they often ruin what should be a very tense moment in the game)
Basically, I'll take having the hatch work the way it does now even if a survivor disconnects to cause it to open as at least it allows you to get into more matches quicker.
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Walking a Dwight to the exit gate while their teammate was dying on the hook. (No seriously, a meg farmed him right infront of me while I was chasing them, they deserved to die on that hook)
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The problems I had with the new matchmaking system from a gameplay perspective is the following ;
- My wait times were effectively 4x longer, because although I would get survivors they would often leave because their ping was incredibly high and upon checking each profile with a high ping, they were often from Japan or South Korea when I'm NA or otherwise on the complete opposite side of the world. This often meant I would need to wait for multiple waves of survivors to even enjoy a match and in some cases everyone would leave my lobby out of boredom.
- As a red rank killer I was occasionally getting paired with rank 15s and I would even watch streamers who ran into the same exact thing constantly and see screenshots of it too which even showed rank 20s going against a rank 1 killer. It's a horrible feeling to play the game and have the match end really fast because you went against people who didn't have a clue about what they were doing and maybe even being responsible for why people quit the game. A person with nearly 2,000 hours should never be paired with someone on an opposing team who doesn't even have a minute into the game especially in a game like this.
While I do not doubt some people had improvements, I personally cannot support a system that allows experienced players to unintentionally steamroll new players. It's a system that can be improved and judging by the message we all got when they flipped us all over to the old matchmaking system - it will be improved.
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1. Trapper (not because he's good, I just don't like looking at the ground the entire match and my eyes are horrible)
2. Doctor (just annoying)
3. Legion with Frank's Mixtape or Double Cooldown (Normal Legion isn't too terrible for me)
4. Nurse
Can't really say that any other killers annoy me in any particular way.
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So how long are devs okay with this game having COMPLETELY broken concepts?
Baseline Nurse is fine, as brought up before she already requires a decent amount of practice and a good ability to predict survivors, what major strength she has in a chase she lacks in tracking. The only issue with Nurse is that out of all of her addons she has a lot of worthless ones and the few that are good are the ones that break her. Luckily, she is due to have her addons looked at anyways and it has been brought up that at some point they will look at her addons which whatever the new ones are should change the function of the blink rather than buff it.
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THE BIGGEST CRUTCH IN THE GAME. Instadown rewards killers for not doing their job.
NOED is fine, totems can be broken to nullify the effects of it and makes up for when survivors only ever want to do the generators and nothing else (no chests, no healing, no totems, nothing but generators) meaning the fault is all on you if it goes off.
Granted, I would not advocate for running NOED on killers like Nurse, Hillbilly, Spirit, Huntress, Hag or Myers for instance as they can establish proper pressure but for other killers like Trapper, Clown, LF, Pig or Doctor there is little they can do against decent survivors either due to RNG or simply by the fact that their power does practically nothing and cannot establish pressure very well especially for players who only want to do 5 generators into adrenaline. For killers like those 5 (4 actually since LF already has an instadown) NOED can be excused.
I personally do not find NOED as much of a threat as I stay injured for most of my matches anyways unless a teammate heals me and in some cases I'll even stay in the match knowing NOED is up.
What I would not be opposed to is a buff to either small game or detective's hunch in some form of a way instead as a way to further assist solo survivors.
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THE PROBLEM > NOED This is the main problem why rank 16 killers are in high ranks, actually the rank system for survivor is hard compared to killer, you need to do a lot of things, and killers just need to do basic things for rank up and if the killer sucked they get a reward; NOED, he get the 4k and rank up, than he face high ranks survivors than they know they need to cleanse totems and how to loop and you get rekt than you come to cry at the forum and devs listen them..
Incorrect.
The reason why killers complain that survivors are OP is because there are balancing issues that still need to be addressed in this game, which to be fair both sides have their problems that need to be fixed. While this game is nothing like what it used to be and is a whole lot more enjoyable for killers than it's ever been thanks to the hard work the devs have put into updating and improving the game for both sides, there are still flaws which people rightfully complain about. NOED unlike some issues in the game can be avoided by thinking ahead and breaking the totems.
Here are the reasons why I believe killers complain from my perspective and experience ;
1 : The time in the matches can be atrocious.
I'll hear it all the time, "apply pressure!" which is possible if you're playing Nurse, Hillbilly, Spirit, Hag and to some extent, Huntress & Myers but for other killers your ability to apply pressure is null and void against specific playstyles such as not healing the entire match and only doing generators and in which case I don't even get how people can play like this and still complain about NOED. (Before you say anything, while I do believe the heal nerfs were a good step, they are not something I would've asked for in the first place rather than to have new, actually fun objectives)
2 : Some maps in the game nullify skill.
This is an issue with two sides to it, but generally speaking there are some absolutely awful maps that nullify your ability to do anything with most of the killers in the game and those said maps are ;
- Any Coldwind Farm map to ever exist. Thanks to see-through tiles you cannot mindgame the jungle gyms and thanks to the graphics changes with the Legion's release (2.4) it's actually difficult to see through corn and some of the maps still have busted structure loops like rancid or torment creek.
- Haddon
funfield. With balanced landing, most of the killers can have their entire game ruined and provides some of the worst loops in the entire game as of this moment causing actual infinites. This map is often argued by some of the best and well known killers and even well known survivors as being the absolute worst map for killers. - Disturbed Ward. With or without balanced landing you have an immensely safe structure in the dead center of the map of which you can't mindgame and you can't prevent survivors from reaching unless you're hillbilly, nurse, T3 Myers and to some extent, Spirit.
- Mount Ormond Resort. Scratches and blood are near impossible to see (fixed in the next update I think?), otherwise it's a map with incredibly confusing or otherwise safe jungle gyms with an atrocious middle structure which can form some busted loops. Otherwise this map is actually incredibly laggy which makes gameplay miserable for anyone who lags on it and not just killers.
- Now this one I will actually admit is unfair to survivors which is shelter woods. There are almost no pallets on that map especially for how large it is.
- Wretched Shop. This map still houses an incredibly mindless, safe and otherwise disgusting loop with plenty of pallets sitting around it incase you mess up or a window gets blocked but is not as bad as it used to be.
While there are other problematic maps, the point still stands. We should not ignore problematic maps in the game because their existence means you're powerless and by continuing to fix them like the devs did in either 2.0 or 2.1 we can see great improvements for both sides of the game and begin to remove the old bandaid fixes.
3 : Some killers lack viability.
Granted, I believe we now have a solid pool of killers that will do pretty well in most circumstances and I believe that the killers that are in a fine spot would be Nurse (without addons), Hillbilly, Spirit, Huntress, Hag and Myers but the others? They are up for debate and the issue is that some killers will absolutely complain because some killers are simply just totally lackluster and need attention and of those killers I believe they include Leatherface, Trapper, Clown(?), Pig, Doctor and Legion but not only for the case of a lack of power but in some of these cases, just the lack of fun alone. Some killers will absolutely run NOED when their power can be totally nullified like in the case of Trapper. Other killers not brought up in this however would be fine with basic QoL changes to the game itself and changes to specific maps to better account for them. NOED while flawed and annoying can be nullified by playing smarter and playing in a more fun way for everyone rather than just wanting to finish games as fast as possible plain and simple.
4 : Rank as of the version 2.5 and earlier does not matter (can't judge 2.6 until I've had time to better understand the ranking changes).
This one actually isn't one that I'm saying killers complain about, for this point I just think it's interesting to bring up more than anything.
Rank as of this version does not matter because it's easy for both sides to rank up because they do not account for your real skill, they account for playing in a way that in theory should be more fun. It won't matter if a rank 16 killer is running NOED or not, if they play enough they will get to rank 1 eventually anyways and that's because it's difficult to depip and the rank system is practically designed to get more people into rank 1 and keep them up there. Though this isn't exactly a bad thing either as it means more games.
This comes from a player who has played both sides of the game, personally I do not run NOED but I also believe that while it's annoying, it's not the glaring problem of the game.
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I'm tired of people hating on legion, and encouraging people to d/c against him. So i'm going to point out why all your arguments for this are invalid.
I can agree that Legion does get a lot more hate than they actually deserve, with that being said some of the hate that Legion does get is infact justified not particularly because of their existence but instead the way some people play Legion.
The big thing to consider is that if you want to compare Nurse to Legion then you're already at a loss really because the big counter to Nurse is stealth - what she has in chase power which is overwhelmingly good, she in return lacks in tracking/finding stealthy survivors. With Legion if you find at least one survivor, then anybody else in your terror radius will also be revealed unlike the Nurse who can't do that and will have to take more of their time to actually find people should they choose to play like that. Lockers can be used against Nurse unlike Legion who can just open lockers with their power (though to be fair, I wouldn't call a locker a counter to Nurse at all unless perhaps you have head on).
So for reasons like that, Legion is understandably disliked by Survivors for that reason because anybody can pick up Legion and cause an unfun experience for them, but not everybody can just suddenly pick up Nurse and cause unfun matches without a decent amount of practice. The Legion additionally gets hate for spam frenzy attacks resulting in cheap (not fast) downs, moonwalking (which is cheap and fast), mindless addons (cold dirt + joey's mixtape and frank's mixtape) which can result in downs that can compete with the speed that Nurse can down survivors but without any form of thinking whatsoever.
But for why I don't like Legion though if we wanted to put those points aside, while I do think Legion is fun to play as, they don't do their own intended job well enough. The issue is that they have to chain hit, but with their power's base duration (and potentially movement speed) it can easily be avoided by any decently far away survivor who just runs in a perfectly straight line which is where I believe Legion can be helped by increasing the base duration and rewarded successful chain hits with further increased movement speed for the remaining duration of the power to better allow for the intended use of their power.
That being said, I have my reasons to hate going against Legion but I think you've made some fair points at the very least that I think I might've overlooked.
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Every. single. thread.
The forums is not necessarily an echo chamber and here's why ;
First of all, pretty much every point you've listed about killers complaining can be thrown right back at survivors because they make the same exact complaints. For every "survivors are babies" and "survivors are OP" post you see, I can guarantee there is another one that is calling killers babies and OP. That isn't an echo chamber, that's people taking their side on the forums.
The other thing you should consider is that there is a lot of people who play this game, infact right now the average amount of players DbD gets is roughly 16,000 and a vast number of them come to places like the DbD forums, reddit, discord or steam forums for instance as they want to talk about their experiences in the game, their suggestions and the problems they have with it - not because they want to echo what everyone else is saying but because they themselves have feedback they want to make towards the game. Infact, while a lot of people happen to have the same problems with the game they often make very different solutions and in some cases have a different outlook on said problems.
I suggest you get more used to the forums and take a better look at some of the posts, infact you might just have your head in the wrong area.
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Some random ideas here but I think a pharaoh cosmetic for Wraith would be pretty cool.
Other than that, maybe a samurai outfit for Spirit and the armor could be pierced where the cuts on Spirit are with the glass just completely turned into crystals.
I still stand by that I want a basic head piece for Spirit where her eyes are blood red instead of white.
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My biggest issues with legion is that the power designed for them does not do its job well and there's absolutely no skill-cap to Legion other than a couple of neat tricks.
I enjoy playing nearly all the killers except Nurse who I find boring and Huntress because my aim with hatchets is actually horrible. That being said, I've picked up a lot of hours on Spirit, Wraith and unfortunately Legion.
Part of what I want to see in this game is more skillful interactions, it's the reason why I love killers like Nurse, Spirit, Huntress and Hag because they are all killers that require skill to learn and master, yet you can never be perfect with them and always learn from your mistakes. I look forward to seeing these kinds of killers be released because when I use them and win, I know that it was directly because of my skill as that killer.
Legion on the other hand? I'm not afraid to admit that I've played an unhealthy amount of Legion matches because they are fun to use, but the problem is that going against The Legion is the most atrocious experience you will ever have in this game especially if they're running the Frank's Mixtape and Double Cooldown addons because there is absolutely nothing you can do as a survivor to outplay that (to clarify, you can still win but it's incredibly boring). The best experience in this game is the chase and Legion totally takes that away because they can ignore everything survivors have including stealth. This means that the survivors will either just disconnect because it's simply unfun and it's a predetermined game or they play in a way that's just as boring for you which is just doing gens + the mend action and ignoring any other action like totems, chest, healing, and sabotaging.
But to point out, the experience survivors have with legion is not the only problem I have as my other issue is while I believe Legion is fun to use there is no skill you gain at all from using them constantly, infact you only harm your overall skill as a player and if you care about it at all, your image because of how mindless it is to use the Legion. You press M2, you vault pallets and windows, stab people and then they mend while you're fed more information which deletes stealth within your terror radius. The worst part is that your power doesn't even accomplish its goal because when you use it as intended, anybody who straightlines when you're attempting to chain hits will simply outrun your power usually leaving your last option to use your power to tunnel.
Legion isn't all bad though, Legion had the potential to be a fun killer for everyone and the devs had the right idea in mind while making them, it's acknowledgement that they know the problems in this game. The problem is that Legion is suffering from is that there is no new mechanics in the game that they made that would actually allow for players to outplay Legion and it's because of those limited mechanics that Legion is so unfun to go against and is why unless they receive a rework, they might not actually be able to make Legion a stronger killer because of the backlash they have for them already.
That's my opinion really, anything else would just mean I'm repeating myself (which to some extent I have) or repeating what everyone else has to say about Legion.
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The best thing I can suggest is to change how you play, probably the most fun I have in this game right now is playing as and against Spirit because apart from some guesses every now and then the better player typically wins when it comes to Spirit.
Imagine Huntress for instance - you wouldn't loop her the same way because she can punish you for it with hatchets. Spirit is no different where you wouldn't loop her the same way either, keep in mind that her power has a somewhat short duration at base (5 seconds) and that she cannot vault or go through windows & dropped pallets. Your best counters to her is to use windows to your advantage (especially if you come across a long wall jungle gym), dropped pallets (though not as much as any decent killer will generally break these if they are safe and know they can't mindgame it) and to run perks like iron will.
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What drives The Plague to kill?
Judging by her lore she wanted to help her people rather than kill them, was it some kind of a deal, a "promise", torture, etc?
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You treat me with dignity and respect, I'll treat you the same with a fair game and good sportsmanship. If you do any of the following:
The first sentence sounded fair enough, but then we get into this part...
Bodyblocking is not an exploit, infact this means that less survivors are on generators and you can injure them. In the future you'll actually come to like bodyblockers because it means less people are on generators and will waste time healing. The best thing you can do is either hit them or if all of them are there then drop the survivor and chase them until you down another one.
Gen tapping is actually good because it reduces the speed of which generators are done which the speed of the game is actually a big problem in the later on ranks. You should be glad they're taking more time to do the generators because it gives you more time to get kills.
Looping isn't too bad, the only problem is horrible buildings such as the disturbed ward, haddonfield and wretched shop as 3 examples. Mindgames like moonwalking, manipulating your red stain, doubling back, etc are all your friend at jungle gym loops. The real problem again is just the duration of matches, not looping which is by the way the only thing that survivors have other than stealth which is incredibly boring and annoying.
Cheats and exploits? Fair enough, I think that's a point a lot of people can agree with but that's still incredibly rare and nothing to get worked up over - report them and move on.
@deathsia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/344337#Comment_344337
Of course you will still ######### about it, because like the person above me stated: You seem like an entitled brat.
Oh yes, I'm SUCH an "entitled brat"... I'm entitled to rank 11 and soon to be rank 10 because I'm THAT SKILLED at this game. This won't do me any favors with changing your opinion but i love using secondary definitions to turn insults into complements since most idiots only know the first and most popular definition of words...
Huh, funny that you only used that word with its most popular definition, kind of like you pointed out the most popular defense players jump to in order to defend body-blocking while ignoring every other part of it.
I know a lost cause when I see one so feel free to think what you like of me. It won't change the fact that what I've said is true but of course you'll claim its not and that's your opinion which you are of course entitled to but that doesn't make it fact. :)
Also I really hate to say it but rank doesn't actually mean anything. Right now I'm a rank 1 killer every single month but I never boast about it because it really isn't an achievement right now because anybody can make it to rank 1 with enough dedication. Ranks are awarded with fair and intended gameplay rather than actually being skilled at it - for instance a really good hillbilly that downs everyone with their chainsaw within 40 seconds won't double pip but they will if they draw out the game for long enough and get regular hits which means the emblems are pipping you because of your skill.
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I'm cheating this one a bit (well not really, this is more so a "pick one or the other"
Either
A : Make Spirit's uncommon addon "Muddy Sports Day Cap" baseline and adjust the speed values to close the gap between her base kit and her speed addons
or
B : Make Wraith's rare addon "Windstorm" baseline as it gives an excellent buff to his basekit granting him some nice mobility and allows for strategies such as bodyblock Wraith. (This would also encourage people to use different addons as Windstorm + Swift hunt is still pretty popular)
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I'd have to say that Spirit is the most balanced killer because she has a power that is directly influenced by your own skill along with good mobility as well. She has drawbacks which makes it difficult to use her correctly sometimes such as the inability to see survivors or blood when her power is in use.
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There is really only one problem I have with Hillbilly and that is only with how easy it is to use billy for how good they are. I wouldn't necessarily advocate for a nerf for billy though as much as I would ask to instead make the power more skillful to use.
If we want to talk counters though, there is certainly a few things you can do against the hillbilly and that's the following ;
1 : You can loop billy like any other 4.6 m/s killer, as long as you can effectively loop using regular pallets or even jungle gyms you will be fine. Billy would only be "broken" if looping did not exist.
2 : Maps (and map types) like Lery's, The Game, Backwater Swamp, Haddonfield and Suffocation pit for instance have a lot of objects in the way that can force hillbilly to stop using their chainsaw for mobility. (This is more so true for Lery's, The Game and Haddonfield though)
3 : Hillbilly can bump into walls if the user is not careful enough, use the stun time to your advantage. Against better hillbilly's they still have a cooldown after coming out of a chainsaw sprint which slows them down for a moment and disables them from hitting survivors and interacting with anything.
Regarding your idea of making Hillbilly 4.4 m/s, this is a bad idea because his power doesn't necessarily give him an edge over looping unlike Huntress who can throw over pallets, Spirit who can mindgame, Hag who can trap
and Legion who just straight up ignores everything.Generally speaking, killers that have 4.4 m/s or 110% movement speed have an advantage against looping while Hillbilly can more so hope to find people out in the open with his high mobility and then down them. -
Hi guys, I've read in recent days that "Behavior" has released 4 original killers in a row because they had an agreement with starbreeze that "forced" to create 4 original killers in a row, so no killer licensed in the last year have been published.
That deal seems a bit silly because I don't think starbreeze would even gain anything out of that, I doubt it's true. Even if it were, then thanks to that I ended up with my favorite killer to this day (Spirit) and gives us more killers (and survivors) we can get cosmetics for.
Again, I doubt it's true though.
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I like how these perks sound considering that this could make generators influence how people play in more ways, but I have a couple of questions and one suggestion.
As far as questions go ;
- how big of a speed boost are we talking about when they activate their perk?
- With the lockout, can any other survivor interact with the specific gen that you tried to use greed is good on? Or is it just totally locked out for all survivors for that one specific gen and the person who failed can't interact with any gens, could you go more in-depth on this?
In addition to this I would like to suggest that perhaps the Gluttony Kills perk automatically activates when spirit, wraith, legion, leatherface and maybe hillbilly have the 4 tokens and use their power as their powers modify their movement speeds so it would be nice especially for spirit users to be able to just get the speed boost while specifically focusing on using their power properly. This doesn't need to be the case but this seems like something that would be very convenient. Regardless, I like these perks.
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@Poweas said:
I agree except for Hag I'd make Dried Cicada base kit.The only problem I could see with that is that I believe that increases Hag's teleport range to 60 meters or something like that. If there was an addon I'd make baseline for hag though, I guess I'd probably go with powdered eggshell perhaps as duration does help with mindgames but she is mostly fine as of right now. But that's pretty much the only reason I didn't really consider suggesting something for Hag.
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My main suspicions is that the new killer will either be
- A pirate
- A knight
- A mummy
Considering the hint that this will be the oldest killer yet, these are all possible options that could be cool if executed right. I'm probably wrong though.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
I know they wouldn't be in the actual description. But the values do exist and they are important so I'd like to know what you are going for there. Obviously the numbers are flexible (so it's not like saying the wrong number will suddenly make your suggestion fundamentally #########) but it is good to know what you are going for (15 seconds of stalking is very different from 3 seconds of stalking)I've edited the post once more, is that better?
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@NuclearBurrito2
Some things this is missing:What happens if you hit a deep wounded survivor?
Does the lowered duration and increase movement speed stick?Also not expected to be on the class card but:
Exactly how fast is FF? (I'd assume it's still 132% by default)
How fast does the stalk bar fill? Is it effected by more that once survivor being in front of you at once?
Does it start filled?Interesting points, I'll update the experimental class card to explain the stacked movement speed and duration changes and that you can't spam the feral frenzy on one survivor.
Regarding the other two parts, I avoid explaining speeds because the devs have not given numbers in the descriptions for Billy, Spirit, Wraith, Nurse, Pig's ambush or current Legion for their power descriptions, same thing with Myers - we don't get the numbers so I can't really guarantee it would be worth leaving in the description. But yes, FF is still 132% by default and 152% at maximum with the frenzy stacking.
By the time you get this notification the two posts I made should be updated, so feel free to let me know what you think. (if you don't see it give it two minutes before checking again)
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@Dreamnomad said:
Here's an idea then. Why don't you write what the in game tool tip would read? Don't worry about explaining the "why's" and specifics. If your change was in the game then what would I read when I look at the power description?I have taken your feedback and updated my original post, I've still kept my indepth explanation but towards the end I've added how it would explain it to you ingame. This is what was added ;
Ingame description
Basic Information;
Movement Speed : 115% (4.6 m/s)
Terror Radius : 32Power : Feral Frenzy
The Legion has a power gauge that can be built up by briefly stalking a survivor.
Whilst in stalk mode your movement speed is slightly decreased but tremendously decreases your terror radius. The stalk requires 4 seconds to fully charge your power gauge.
When your gauge is full you may activate your power in any mode and upon activation the legion enters a deadly rage. While the power is active:- The legion sprints at 5.28 m/s for 14 seconds.
- The legion can vault pallets and windows.
- Missed attacks have a reduced cool-down.
- Expands your terror radius to 40 meters.
While Feral Frenzy is active, hitting a fresh survivor does the following:
- Inflicts them with deep wounds but does not boost them.
- Activates killer instinct which allows you to see other survivors in your terror radius.
- Refills power gauge.
- Each hit that inflicts deep wounds increases your Feral Frenzy movement speed by 5% and decreases your duration by 2 seconds.
Ending your power does the following;
- Puts you into a brief fatigue for 1.5 seconds.
- Resets changes to your speed and duration.
- Ending your power early allows you to retain roughly the same amount of use in your gauge to allow for quicker stalking.
Survivors must mend themselves or they will go down.
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@Dreamnomad said:
This thread is getting pretty negative. My largest gripe about your proposal is that it is entirely too complicated. Players shouldn't have to read a short story to understand what a killer does. It isn't intuitive either.Yeah I unfortunately can't do anything about some of the responses on here by a particular individual so unfortunately this is pretty negative because of that.
I understand this part and why you might think this is complicated but really this is only an in-depth way of explaining exactly how the power should function, this in no way would be the finalized explanation of the power. I'd imagine most powers would need a lot of explanation to fully explain exactly how it would work while an actual description can get rid of the specifics, for instance you wouldn't need some of the paragraphs in my post nor explain in the power description regarding the anti-moonwalk or anything like that.
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Because I feel some people have misunderstood this post, I have decided to do a brief edit over it to make it easier to read and improve some aspects of the power, including a slight buff to my proposed stalking mechanic.
Updates
2/20/19
- Increased the range of which the deep wounds timer does not drop from 16 meters to 20 meters.
- Clarified that legion still has tracking capability when the power is used.
- Moved new deep wound system introduced with the frank's mixtape addon to Julie's mixtape to make it more worthwhile.
- Cleaned up the addon section a bit!
- Adjusted Legion's stalk mechanic, the legion now hunches over and moves at 110% while in the stalk mode instead of 105% with a tremendously decreased terror radius while active (8 meters)
- Cleaned up the post overall to make it easier to read.
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@Tucking_Friggered said:
You should title this "Survivor Approved Rework to Legion". For funsies tell me why in your rework Legion wouldn't just opt to play as a M1 killer and never use their power? With the level of complication and impotence it seems somewhat pointless. Instead of wasting hours writing up reworks, just play the game. You lack the talent or impartiality to come up with something anyone would want to play much less have paid cash for."Now that we have separated legion’s power from being able to injure people or down them"
We can boil it down to this. Hello, Freddy, I mean Legion. Except with none of the slowing, a more complicated playstyle, and complete lack of a useful endgame.
All your post does is drive people away from wanting to discuss about fun ideas. There is literally no reason to defend the current state of legion.
To explain though, yes this is a complicated rework but it would not be complicated to make a basic description for the new version of the power, this post is longer because I go behind the math, addon ideas and in-depth discussion about the rework itself.
Here is why you would use the power instead of just using M1 ;
- The power helps you pressure survivors into the mend action which with this rework has been buffed to a baseline of being a 20 second action.
- This temporarily prevents survivors from doing anything else while giving you a large mobility boost, this boost is infact better than what legion can currently achieve which I believe is around 7 seconds of duration which is only 36.96 meters (147.84 at absolute most) vs 14 seconds of duration with this rework and 73.92 meters (maximum with duration burn included is a whopping 280.3 meters).
- You can use your alternative to sneak up to people, it fits in character with some crazed teens.
- Fixes the problem Legion previous had where they couldn't even chain hits on separated survivors.
- EDIT : You also still keep your tracking with legion, the power also helps you find people just like his power does now and his expanded terror radius with his frenzy makes this even better!
- EDIT 2 : You can directly pull survivors out of generators, totems and lockers with your frenzy.
It's literally a direct improvement to legion with extras while removing cheesy mechanics.
You also fail to acknowledge how well this extra mobility could work out. -
@NuclearBurrito2 said:
So take the pig... replace her bear traps with the shape... and then use all of that build up to do an action that doesn't even down them!?I don't think you understand the rework well enough, in addition to this a power does not need to be able to down in order to be good, it needs to actually function as intended.
I implemented the stalk idea because the devs talked about it in the past so I wanted to see if I could incorporate it into my current rework and see what people think of it and I myself have even stated that this power could perhaps do without the stalking aspect if you read my responses, I just wanted to see what people thought about this rework first.
Also keep in mind, this rework grants legion the ability to really sneak up on survivors AND have way more mobility than their current version could ever wish to achieve, if you did the math and timed everything perfectly you could travel a total of 280.3 meters at a much faster rate than a normal killer with this just for using 4 seconds of your own time in a match (or less if you end your power early and refill your bar from there!). This power can still down people if they do not mend, but like the current version of legion it's designed to pressure survivors into wasting time, not specifically to down people and this gets rid of exploiting deep wounds.@Devil_hit11 said:
If you ask me, this post looks like some survivor main who wishes that they delete Legion from the game by making him and his entire power worthless beyond of what it is now.Your first stage has half-baked version of pig's ability, if you like playing pig, you can just pick pig instead of turning legion into pig. Not only that, You also successfully managed to implement Freddy's dream world mechanic onto him(by not allowing him to hit deep wound survivors) and on top of that, your reward for stalking in comparison to Mysers went from Instant down to even more conditional timer that you can't even use if your remotely next to a survivor.
Just from my first paragraph, can you see how terrible weak the killer is without even adding it into the game? It's like you managed to think of every possible worthless mechanic in the game and slap into one killer to make greatest F-tier in dead by daylight history.
I'm sorry, but if the first thing you're going to say is to call me a survivor main then I'd appreciate it if you took your attitude elsewhere, calling someone a "killer main" or "survivor main" is only a means of splitting up and demeaning members of the community. But I actually mostly play killer and out of all the killers I play Spirit and Wraith the most while Legion is my third most played killer as of lately because I wanted to understand how to go about this rework. Here's some proof if you don't believe me ;
So, how about we stop accusing and instead get to some real productive discussion here, from here I'll address the rest of your post.
1 : Wrong, this does not turn Legion into a half-baked pig. While I will agree the stalking idea is similar to both pig and myers, this actually allows legion to travel faster than pig's ambush (105% instead of 95%) and is only intended to allow Legion to get closer to survivors making it harder to notice.
2 : Why does legion need to be able to hit deep wounded survivors who are already inflicted with the effect, what more do you want it to do without it totally breaking the game mechanics and making the game totally skill-less and unfun? I have compensated this change with insane mobility that legion could not ever achieve before, their power is made to stall and would be unfun to allow it to down people directly rather than indirectly.
3 : This timer is actually better, legion's current timer can barely allow him to chain hits unless survivors are directly next to each other, my rework fixes that by allowing legion to have more tracking capabilities and drastically increasing mobility while providing you more freedom to play how you want.
Please take a moment to reread my post as I believe you are misunderstanding this. This rework is a straight up buff to legion while removing game breaking mechanics from them giving players of both sides what they want, I've even consulted plenty of killers and survivors about my idea before even putting it up on the forums to get their feedback. Instead of just calling my rework trash, a rework of which I've spent countless hours of playing and learning legion and every single addon they have, hours of putting together this new idea, I would really appreciate it if you could instead offer constructive criticism as to how you yourself would improve the legion or my rework. I don't think you understand the process behind making a detailed rework, you can't just pop them out of nowhere.
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@Shad03 said:
I do enjoy reading ideas such as this one. The creativity people use to think of things is a refreshing breath of air.The overhaul is interesting however I feel like the duration should increase for every hit, but of course I can see the reasons why it would decrease so I shall not say nothing more on that matter.
I like the idea of a stalk mechanic and it would definitely fit a group of mischievous teens who gone murder happy. And finally, the Pin Add on isn't so useless any more. It even gives points! (I do feel you should add in another 250 points, or make it a solid 100% so that it keeps in line with the other add ons that directly affect the killers viability i.e The Wraith's Beast add on, The Hillbilly/Cannibal Speed Limiter, The Trapper's Padded Jaws)
Anyways, there is not much I can say except this would be something I could get behind on. But then again, anything is better then nothing at this point.
I'm not opposed to upping the point gain on that actually, I'll up it to 500.
Regarding the duration burn the reason why I went for that idea is that I wanted Legion to be able to really use their mobility but also give them choices every step of the way to achieve what their power should allow them to do. The reason why I have the duration decrease is that when the speed increases you're making a still considerable distance in less time which also allows you to chain your hits faster to make mending multiple survivors worthwhile.
Something interesting to note actually is that if you combine Susie's mixtape with stolen sketchbook with this rework is that the duration burn is almost non-existent allowing you to travel roughly the same distance each stage.
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@powerbats said:
@vampire_toothy said:
I actually just made a post earlier today that goes over exactly that as I was rather curious as to what addons people feel make a killer "balanced" if you will and why.
Did you already link it in this thread?
I don't think I have, here it is : https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/47304/if-you-could-make-an-addon-baseline-for-each-killer-what-would-it-be#latest
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I agree, personally I think it's rather silly that we have addons that mostly directly buff a killer's power instead of that already being the case for the killer. In my opinion most killers should have their addons overhauled to change how you play entirely and in return the base kit of the killers should be improved. It can be argued that you can keep a killer stocked up on addons you need to keep playing them but if you play multiple then it just starts become a little silly.
@powerbats said:
I've seen killers take perkless Freddy to rank 1 and I've faced plenty of good ones as well so it does come down to skill at a certain point a swell.But if you want something as base which some should have and other shouldn't have you should post a list of what each should have as base.
Then take that list and propose what addons would get nerfed or tweaked and how would offerings and perks be tweaked to avoid another cough Frank's Mixtape Legion issue.
I actually just made a post earlier today that goes over exactly that as I was rather curious as to what addons people feel make a killer "balanced" if you will and why.
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@ermsy said:
What band aid fixes did we get for DS?
And this perk would severely punish the obsession and no obsession DS users alike.I would also like DS to simply disappear but I think this could be an alternative route.
-Rancor
-Enduring
-Iron Grasp
-Unnerving Presence
All 4 of these perks are bandaids to DS as they have some form of interaction with them or encourage you to avoid it until the very end. For Rancor you just wait until the very end though that is detrimental to the rest of the match while enduring cuts down the time you're stunned from DS. Meanwhile you have iron grasp that does exactly what you're suggesting - wiggle more before you can use the perk and then unnerving which shrinks the skillcheck but none of these are legitimate total counters to the perk. (A counter implies totally negating something) A lot of the time perks are released to help deal with problems instead of new baseline features to the game. -
@Mr_Black said:
Legion is fine how he is... He just needs a slight nerf to his feral frenzy... And maybe make him more realistic...
E.g.
Walk Speed: 4.0 m/s
Feral Frenzy Speed: 5.2 m/s
Height: Average
Terror Radius: 284 m/s would make Legion the same exact speed as survivors meaning they would only ever be able to catch up with bloodlust or feral frenzy, which to my knowledge I'm pretty sure the majority of players want to go down to a normal chase, not being stabbed 4 times with their power. Your straight up nerf to Legion would make him the actual worst killer in the game and give them the excuse to retain broken addons like frank's mixtape.
Regarding the OP, I actually like this rework idea, it's pretty cool - I remember putting up a rework for the legion a while ago but I don't think the post ever actually took off. But I like the fact that you incorporated a way to use each legion member, though maybe instead of having Joey be the member with the slowest vault speed, perhaps allow him to be the member that can break pallets?
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@HeHeBoii said:
Punish newer players huh? Well tough luck, that's the way they going to learn. If balancing the game circles around the newer players than we are coming full circle to Freddy being demolished because of Survivors outcries lmao. Not like ruin even lasts more than 2 minutes anyway.You do realize that new players aren't the problem for killers though, right? There's a difference between making a killer like Freddy who was nerfed right after release (which the devs have learned from this) and making a perk baseline that will only steamroll newer players rather than having much of a meaningful impact on skilled players. Keep in mind, ensuring that the game is as easy as it is to pick up on for newer players is what's going to keep this game going and making ruin baseline is only going to chase them away.
One idea that I thought was pretty neat was applying an action debuff to those recently unhooked which I think would be a better and more consistent idea than what ruin could ever provide.
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@PubStar87 said:
85% of matches you dieWhy bother bringing in items?
Having an item is meant to change your game. Believe it or not, even if you die your item can still have an impact to where your teammates can still make use out of it.
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The way I see it is that the game provides a bunch of perks and addons for everyone to use, you do not become a good or bad player just because you have them. If you can run the perks and utilize them right, make solid plays and have a good understanding of the game then you are a good player and no perk can change that though they can enhance your experience with the game.
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Ruin should not be baseline and this is because holding down M1 on a generator is already boring. I do agree that there should be something to help slow the game down for killers but what this ends up doing is that it will only punish newer players while veteran players will still dominate which again, solves nothing. If we were to look into any ways of slowing down the game it should be more fun and interactive for both sides so it feels less like a chore and more like a fun gameplay element.
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@PubStar87 said:
1. Before it existed Killers had to do their own dirty work and go find usEvery Killer with half a brain uses it now,
IMO if EVERY killer is using something it's brokenYou're taking away time that all 3 other survivors could have been doing something else, now we have to hide in lockers, which by the way are rarely right by a GEN
Those unlucky enough to be 41 meters away are screwed, Mr. Killer is coming for you now and since they got 4 seconds they know exactly where you're going
Yep, there's a perk to counter, that hasn't been in the Shrine yet, way to force people to pay to win
Hiding behind Gens hasn't worked since whichever patch made SURV outlines clearer
It makes for a very un-fun game for those of us that don't get caught but keep having to jump in lockers every 30 seconds because teammates
So what did Killers do before BBQ&C existed? Oh yeah, work for their score
It's too complicated for dumb players, play any match as SURV at rank 5 to rank 20 and you'll find your teammates have no clue what to do against it, or have no regard that it exists at all, ensuring an un-fun match for you
It's too OP
I don't even use it when I play Killer it feels cheap
There has to be a better way
Hell at least give em a skill check or something, as of right now it's simply too easy for K's
1 : Before it existed plenty of killers just camped rather than doing that dirty work, you do realize that removing it will only be detrimental to your gameplay?
2 : Just because almost everyone uses something does not mean it's broken, it can also mean it's a great perk. BBQ & Chili is an excellent perk for killers that provides QoL for the game itself not only for reducing camping but also reducing the grind in it as well. This can be compared to pre heal-nerf selfcare which delivered a pretty useful tool almost every survivor used : the ability to heal.
3 : Then hide behind a gen? Also realize that if you're only ever focusing on gens and cannot bother to take a couple seconds out of your match to use a counter to the perk and will complain about the game because of that then you yourself are part of the problem.
4 : Learn, adapt to the distances. With more gameplay and knowledge of the game will come a better understanding of distances.
5 : There is some irony in this statement actually, the truth is that neither side needs perks in order to win with enough time and effort (well, some of the more lackluster killers are screwed against competent survivors). Also, of course it hasn't shown up, the chapter is too new and there has almost never been a time where a new perk showed up in the shrine directly after release. In the same way you can complain about distortion, I'm pretty sure BBQ has only showed up in the shrine once.
6 : Update 2.2.0 made the aura color of gens almost identical to the aura color of survivors. If that isn't working out for you then I guess just use any other counter provided earlier on.
7 : From my perspective I disagree. I look forward to being chased because it provides relief to holding M1 down on a generator for 80 seconds on each and every generator is boring. For a perk like BBQ to exist it's perfect because it allows for me to get chased faster. Understandably not everyone wants to be chased which is where this becomes more perspective based, but if you really don't want to be found then you already have the tools you need within the base part of the game itself.
8 : Survivors complained about camping so the devs made a perk to encourage killers not to camp by giving them incentive to leave the hook. I'm actually surprised that the one tracking perk you are complaining about is BBQ when whispers is much better. I don't know how good the buff to spies from the shadow is but I can see that being a better tracking perk too now.
9 : Of course you have bad teammates and they don't just exist between rank 5-20, they exist in rank 1 too. But just because players are bad does not mean something should be nerfed, instead it's actually more reasonable to blame the ranking system for making it so easy to rank up yet at the same time, that's really the only way you're going to get matches.
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You'll all either hate or love this ;
Killer : Spirit
Addons : Mother-Daughter Ring, Prayer Beads
Perks : Thrill of the Hunt | Devour Hope | Play With Your Food | BBQ
Basically, this build is pretty self explanatory but with some setup it's basically like double speed but with prayer beads and eventually you can get a sneaky mori and nobody is able to do a thing about it. It's basically impossible to lose with this build. Because you're always grabbing people, you don't lose tokens on play with your food keeping you at a constant +15% speed or 0.6 additional m/sKiller : Freddy
Addons : Swing Chains, Jump Rope
Perks : Dying Light | Thanatophobia | Sloppy Butcher | Pop Goes the Weasel
Nothing is getting done with that match as when you get this build going, generators take 400 seconds to complete (this is assuming survivors are unlucky with skillchecks and you can keep them asleep).Killer : Trapper
Addons : Iridescent Stone, Bloody Coil
Perks : Remember Me | BBQ | Save The Best For Last or Dying Light if you really hate your obession | Bloodhound or anything else
Just trap the exits. What are the survivors gonna do, leave?