jesterkind
jesterkind
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110525#Comment_4110525
What’s silent shadow do? How does it pair with NOED?
It's one of Jason's perks, it gives you permanent Undetectable after the last gen is done, plus a short Undetectable timer after every hook.
Silent, slightly faster, and can instadown. It's not the best synergy ever, but it is pretty fun. I also run it on Sadako, who uses it a bit better since she's quieter! -
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/471420/the-ten-thousandth-post-special
Congratulations!! 🎊🍾🎈
I enjoy seeing you in the community and I am really glad Houndmaster has grown on you despite her…flaws. Haha
That’s okay though. She will get her love from the devs. I too really enjoy her, and am passionate about her.I am looking forward to sharing time though with the judgement when she releases. I’m excited to try different builds.
Side Bonus. My favorite 2 builds on Houndmaster if you want - STBFL, Rapid, Surge, Pain Res. Addons are your choice.The other build is a skill check build 😈
My builds aren’t meta but they’re fun!
Oppression, overcharge, merciless storm and No Quarter. I use spiked collar on this build to make no quarter a little more fun. 🤣😈
Thank you!
I'll definitely have to try those builds out, I was already considering SBTFL and Rapid Brutality on her. Come to think of it, I bet she'd be pretty good with the Machine Learning + Help Wanted combo too, if you can get it off…
I've recently been using the Silent Shadow and NOED pair, though I'm overdue a shakeup so it'll definitely be something different soon. Underrated strength of characters like Houndmaster, I think, being able to use so many different builds is pretty solid.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110483#Comment_4110483
its just going to be a hard difference of opinion from me, I know what you are saying but boons are in a terrible state, Circle of Healing which, outside of Exponential, was the only boon to ever be solid, got totally crushed into the ground, and I actually agreed with it being nerfed, it was pretty hard to argue that it was fine in its release state, but Behaviour loves "balancing" things by totally destroying them. Boons suck in Solo Queue, and unlike Hexes, Killers can hear Boon totems from a considerable distance. most of them are negligible in value and the better ones are rarely ever utilized by Solo Queue teams, they create a distraction rather than provide a benefit, 90% of the time players in Solo Queue have a boon they will be setting it up on the first totem they see regardless of where it is or how helpful it is rather than doing things that progress the game.
And Still, my point is that DBD, while having more perks and characters now than it used to, has become more narrow with far less room for "sidequests", Stealth is dead, Distortion was gutted already, Lockers are obsolete regarding gameplay as a base function and are only used in interesting ways with Head on, The Dredge, Killers that need to reload, and Vecna (The Lich) or dodging Friends and BBQ despite being one of a few offered "Base" avenues to operate in the match, Pallets are more dense but less valuable, Gens take longer, Tunneling is more prevalent, unlocking chests and doing dull totems and boons doesn't advance the game for survivors benefit almost ever, the only times that boons see good value is in SWFs that are built around them, and even then I think its a fundamental problem to balance the game around 4man Survivor Teams when a ton of people play it with virtually no communication, even after the addition of the upcoming preset chat wheel its totally incomparable. Survivors are, to restate, just husks that bring nothing individually to the table and don't mix anything up, and their only avenue remains perks that may or may not have value in a match against killers who's perks definitely will have value unless they are trying to do something outlandish.I think looking at the game this way can make it become something of a self-fulfilling prophecy, because most of what you're saying here I'd argue definitely isn't true.
Take stealth as a major example. I see people say stealth is dead all the time, but that's definitely not true if you stop and look at all the perks available to you.
For responding to auras, you have Distortion, Self Preservation, Shadow Step and Off The Record for blocking them, plus We See You and Object Of Obsession for knowing you're being seen and avoiding the killer that way.
For breaking chase, you've got Quick & Quiet, Dance With Me, Overcome, Lucky Break, and a few others.
For general stealth, Iron Will, Lightweight (maybe? Always had a hard time getting a bead on this one), Ghost Notes, No Mither (though this one heavily defines a playstyle), Fixated, Urban Evasion, and any killer-aura reveal perk since those help you keep an eye on where the killer is and thus avoid them seeing you.These are just the perks that are worth using, by the way, there are definitely perks I'd say aren't really worth using at all like Sole Survivor. It's also not counting Fog Vials, which are a stealth tool as well now they're more worth using.
I'm using stealth as an example but it's something that generally applies to most things in the game. You might have to be willing to branch out into new tools, and some playstyles may not be as strong as the general meta tools, but there's plenty that's worth using out there.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110470#Comment_4110470
To clarify a few things:
When I say build Creativity is getting narrowed down, it's objectively true, because perks are getting gutted while old perks also remain unviable, that doesn't mean that there arent currently other options but it means its a problematic trend. that's the first part of it, the second part of it is that DBD itself has forced itself to be far more linear than I think it should be, more or less what I mean by that is there are entire categories (Like countering totems as you can go several games without seeing a hex at all making the perks useless otherwise since they are specialized and never guaranteed to have an impact) or bizarrely fun build ideas becoming less and less possible and that is not entirely due to direct perk nerfs over the years, but generally because of a trend towards this game being a "Comp" setting without any of the proper framework for it to be that way. Vigil isn't even amongst the top perks in escape rate, it falls decently below the 40% baseline (where 41% and above would indicate a perk is overperforming)
TLDR for this is: Build Crafting is narrowing because perks are given a narrow avenue to operate in, and even in that narrow avenue the number of perks which are guaranteed to give value are outweighed kind of significantly by those which do not guarantee value or give very little value when measured up against Exhaustion Perks. even a decent amount of the gen perks can be countered by a killer outright, if you're facing a legion but you brought a Gen Buff build for the team you're trolling the game by trying to use your build as legion is getting all of his targets in one place.
I am still in disbelief that Vigil is being written off as "not very impactful" to escape a tunneling killer, one of the fastest ways to get a killer to change their mind about tunneling is to gain distance with an exhaustion perk, Vigil lowers your recovery by several seconds. that's absolutely huge. DBD is a game of seconds.
At the end of the day what I am saying is that survivor perks being diminished further and further over the years feels terrible because perks are the only avenue of expression for survivors who are otherwise a null singular being with no individuality besides which one of six items they want to bring. there's nothing special about playing Quentin over Jill, or Jill over MIkaela… so the feeling of having generally good perks gutted is much worse because it effects all survivors in a much larger way than it does for killers to have a perk nerfed, killers have a power and addons for that power whereas survivors are a blanket statement, they are all the same. with less to play towards and at the same time more to have to know gamewise (killers will always be facing 4 survivors, in High MMR likely with the same groupings of the front runner perks) but survivors could be loading into basically anything, that was a comfort in picking Vigil, because it helped a little against a lot.Not all that many survivor perks are non-viable, though, and even fewer are genuinely just a matter of luck if you get to use them.
You bring up a good case study here in totem perks. It's a matter of chance if the killer has any hexes, so, is that the only use those perks have?
The answer is no, they do more than that. For example, Counterforce may on its own only really be useful for countering hexes, as all it gives you otherwise is BP and emblem score, but what if you bring it alongside Inner Strength and/or Overzealous? What if Small Game or Detective's Hunch isn't used to find hexes, but spots for your boons?This is what I mean when I say there's a lot of variety in the game if you want to go find it. Plenty of tools synergise together in obvious ways and unexpected ways, and most things in the game have at least one decent enough use case. Not to say none are bad, of course, some perks really are just weak, but I find there's a troubling trend that's existed since I started playing about six years ago for players to write off tools immediately, especially if they've recently been nerfed.
Build crafting really isn't being narrowed. Some tools are being nerfed - and some of those do actually end up bad instead of just "good but not as good" - but tools get buffed as well, and there's been plenty of just pretty decent perks in the game for years that haven't been touched in a while. The pool isn't shrinking, and in my experience it's grown a fair bit since I started playing.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110074#Comment_4110074
This is just outright false. It is incredible that people say Tunneling is a Skill Issue and then type something like this. If you're a good survivor player you're walking as much as possible and trying to get your exhaustion perk back online, Vigil helps you do that. you're just saying that Tunneling has reached such an oppressive state that no matter what you won't get Vigil value because you're going down before that which isn't a good argument it just points towards a glaring problem. IF the killer tunneling you is causing effects like hindered, you will recover from it faster… and the point I am making is that its an Adjacent perk to Anti Tunnel Builds, not something run in pure Anti Tunnel Builds.
The Choices for Build Creativity are just getting (and have been getting) narrowed for no reason at all, what if A survivor doesn't want to run a full anti tunnel build but wants a good generalized perk to help a little bit in the case that they do but will also give value if they don't? Vigil was one of those options. Survivors ONLY have the benefit of perks to diversify playstyle as half of their six item choices are nearly useless when compared to Toolbox, Medkit, or Flashlight and there are options for killers already to totally nullify or significantly hinder these items. why are we allowing killers multiple layers of freedom of creativity in builds but narrowing the survivors only avenue of build changes? It is a double standard.I don't think it's true that build crafting variety is really going down all that much, and I think it's a mindset that can lead to being more irritated with changes than you might need to be.
Right now, we've actually got a lot of room for creativity in our builds if we want it. Let's look at your example of wanting something that helps with tunneling without needing to be a dedicated anti-tunnel option. This is a pretty good place to look, not just because there's a fair bit of variety but also because Vigil itself had pretty low impact on tunneling, meaning its peers in this regard don't need to be too crazy either.The most obvious things to mention off the bat are just, the exhaustion perks. Specifically the ones that make distance, like Sprint Burst, Lithe, to a lesser extent Balanced Landing, and an even lesser extent Dead Hard.
None of these are dedicated anti-tunnel perks, but they're useful when you're being tunneled. In that vein, you've also got stuff like Resilience for faster vaulting, or Quick & Quiet + Dance With Me as tools that can help when you're being tunneled without being dedicated to it.If we assume any given player is already running an exhaustion perk - not an unreasonable assumption, though I personally don't most of the time - there are lots of things that can support that too. If you're willing to run one dedicated anti-tunnel perk, you can be in a much more solid position.
For example, Sprint Burst or Lithe and Blood Rush is a solid combo that provides potent anti tunnel but decent value when you aren't tunneled. Similarly, DS and either Head On or Plot Twist pushes killers into some lose/lose scenarios while still being relatively useful when you aren't tunneled.The list can go on and on. Second Wind may be a little awkward to use but is quite solid in this regard, Made For This improves your anti-tunnel Endurance while having some use cases outside of that context, Fixated can help you walk off exhaustion, Ghost Notes can do the same and provide an extra benefit too…
It's not just tunneling, either. Any scenario you want, provided it's not too specific, there's probably a pretty decent variety of tools you can bring. I personally find a lot of players just don't have that much willingness to change up their build, which is fine if you're owning it but kind of a concern when it's being presented as a lack of options.
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Hatch provides a healthy incentive for the last survivor to not just hide until the server closes, so I don't think it should go away. You're right that it causes issues for the last two survivors, though.
A repair bonus might help, but I think it probably wouldn't be enough. I've had some ideas for how to fix it in the past, but nothing super concrete.
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Part of the answer is that he's inherited a lot of accumulated issues from being the game's first ever killer and thus being really outdated now, but I'd also personally argue giving Trapper all his traps at the start of the game wouldn't really be a good way of buffing him.
While it'd help him with his early game for players that want to engage with the power fantasy of setting up a web and managing trap placements, it'd also make it way easier to just brute force a down then set up around that hook to proxy camp, which goes triple if that down happens near enough the basement to use that.
If a killer's path of least resistance for play is something obnoxious, unhealthy, and easy, that's what people will do. Look at Artist; good skill ceiling, lots of skill expression, plenty to learn… but people use her as a loop-zoning machine a lot of the time because that's a lot easier and juuuuust strong enough to give some kind of results. Same deal with Knight before they fixed that about him.That's not to say we can't help Trapper's early game, though. I've maintained for a while that a good way of doing that without breaking anything is to tweak his traps to spawn already placed (but not armed) at pallets and windows, so experienced players can eyeball each one and go "eh good enough" + drive-by arm it if it's one that might catch someone.
That, plus a few number buffs and an addon rework, would be enough to help Trapper keep up in the modern era without making him overtuned. -
@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109276#Comment_4109276
If there is no toggle, BHVR cannot reliably and directly measure the acceptance and rejection of the feature.
Also they will only have be able to measure:- Games where the feature is enabled for everyone.
- Performance of players with the feature enabled.
And they'd have nothing to compare it to aside from games from before the feature was introduced.
If there is a toggle, BHVR can directly measure the usage rate of the feature and they'll be able to directly in the same timeframe compare:
- Games where the feature is enabled for everyone.
- Games where some players have it enabled and some do not.
- Games where the feature is disabled for everyone.
And also compare:
- Performance of players with the feature enabled.
- Performance of players with the feature disabled.
Now can you see how having a toggle would lead to better data to inform their decisions rather than not having a toggle?
While I personally don't have too much of an issue with the toggle, I do think this argument is a bit strange, I hope you don't mind me jumping in to ask you a few things.
Namely, I'm curious why the data for players who have it disabled needs to come from after the system was added. BHVR have all those stats for the current patch, before this system was added, why can't they use that as the comparison point for games with the system enabled?
It's also not at all unreasonable to point out that if even one person disables the system, that's going to affect the value of the data you get, right?Say you have the system enabled and ping that you're going for the unhook, but the one person who disabled the system thinks they're in the best position to go for it. That otherwise very useful callout is now worthless because the person who needed to hear it opted out of the system from minute one and caused that immediate inefficiency.
Now, personally, I think the toggle being opt out means most players will keep it enabled even if they don't actively use it, meaning they still benefit passively from others using it and the data on its usefulness will still be fairly accurate overall, but I do think we need to acknowledge that the system being turned off by even one person harms the accuracy of the data for those matches.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108603#Comment_4108603
Regarding “I’m being chased”, there are scenarios where the chase indicator wouldn’t appear, but the players could still be considered in-chase. Like with certain stealth killers, or a Pig trying to moonwalk for a headpop, for example.
Adding on to that, if you prerun early enough chase doesn't mechanically trigger even though both you and the killer would regard yourself as being in a chase. There's definitely enough edge cases for that one to be worthwhile, in my opinion.
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I'm not the first person to bring it up, but I'm definitely going to highlight how useful it would be to be able to ping your own perks, there are so many situations where that would come in handy. I had one literally today- a solo queue teammate was clicking their flashlight while I was cleansing a totem, and while I assumed they just wanted a heal since I'd just unhooked them, they actually had Soul Guard which I didn't think to check for since nobody runs that perk.
That and many other situations - going for an unhook with We'll Make It, having Deliverance active, having Resilience so not wanting to be healed, etc - would benefit so much from being able to ping your own perks.To be a bit more constructive I think the best way of handling it is to have each perk slot be its own bindable ping in the dropdown menu. "Ping Perk Slot 1" would ping whatever is equipped in that slot, and so on.
There are definitely lots of builds where only really one or two of your perks are really things you need to remind your teammates of, so it'd save space on the wheel to only bind, say, Deliverance and We'll Make It, but not Finesse and Deja Vu, for example.Other than that, I'm feeling pretty positive about this as a solo queue player!
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Looks about right for when 2v8 is live, unfortunately.
Except for Germany, goddamn! That's pretty rough even for 2v8.
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@Mooks said:
https://twitter.com/mrpope/status/2085844973602136541?s=46
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0QC5EU79KOZR/img-0697.jpeg
… Maurice plush so close yet so far away for me 😢That Campfire Tour thing is very exciting, I hope the devs end up coming to the UK sometime. I'd definitely make the effort to go visit if so.
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If they did pick that question, the answer would probably be some variation on "we can't share anything yet".
If they don't have something to share on a topic, and the question is solely about sharing things on that topic, that's when the stock answers come in. Asking those questions means inviting those answers.
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What makes you say Jason had his camping ability buffed after release? The only thing I can think of is that the vertical part of his built-in anticamp was removed to stop him being affected when he isn't camping, but I don't like to assume that's what you meant.
Anyways, I can't speak for Judgement since I can't access PTBs for the time being, but otherwise I agree more could be done with built-in anticamp. Singularity, First, and Jason all have solid anticamp but a few more killers could definitely do with it, even ones released in that timeframe.
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This generally happens because a lot of people are only interested in asking questions that boil down to "when will you change X thing", which is a fine question to ask but that's the risk.
If they don't already happen to have something to share, you'll get a stock answer. They can't conjure up a satisfying answer to that kind of question if they aren't actively working on that thing.
I do wish more people understood this, it'd make everyone a lot less frustrated with Q&As.
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To be fair, we're fresh off Chaos Shuffle which will basically always favour killer, so it clearly goes back and forth.
Lights Out also just isn't all that good, overall. It'd be much more interesting if it were JUST a no-loadout, stripped back UI mode without the darkness filter.
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I've thought about this sort of thing before myself, but I think unfortunately just doing that both won't solve the real problems and might make certain tools or combinations too strong.
The setup I've pitched before for an update like this is a patch that does all three of the following:
- Rework toolboxes, as their repair speed is problematic just in a vacuum
- Make it so that actively regressing/sparking generators can't be targeted by generator explosions or blocking
- Then raise the base regression, now that slowdown stacking is less of a concern
All that together I think could move the game in a healthier direction when it comes to slowdown.
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Shoulder the Burden does come up a fair bit in conversations around here, but it's not actually a problem at all.
The only way someone can be hooked five times before they die is if the killer is stubbornly insisting on tunnelling them even through anti-tunnel, which means that the anti-tunnel should be pretty damn effective, this is the best possible use case for that kind of perk.
I'd probably go so far as to say that if DS and OTR aren't as good as StB in this context, that's a problem with those two perks, they should be. Maybe slightly less because they're personal and not altruistic, but they should be a pretty close comparison.This perk doesn't actually do anything if the killer isn't tunnelling off hook, so it's a nice ambient incentive to deter players away from that tactic until it's fixed properly. If anything I'd suggest buffing it, the Exposed downside makes it pretty unappealing for a lot of players.
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This might be a bit of an odd pick but honestly, I think Fixated as its own perk and not just a Sprint Burst/Exhaustion support perk is a bit slept on.
The ability to walk stealthily away while still making decent distance is really solid, I've come to like the perk a lot.
On the killer side… I would've said Dissolution, but I think people have started to catch on to that perk being really good, same with Gift of Pain.
So, I think my backups will be Furtive Chase and Gearhead. Those have both been pretty damn solid perks for a while and I don't see many people using them or talking about them. -
I do have fun, yes. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if anyone wouldn't agree they at least have fun a good amount of the time, that person should take a break.
It's what I do, I just don't play the game for a couple weeks if I start feeling frustrated, and it lets me come back refreshed so I can enjoy the game again. The longer you play a game without breaks, the more the good parts of it fade into the background and the bad parts start seeming larger than life by comparison.
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Outside of maybe reworking the lowest rarity of his scaling effects, since there's no reason to have three, I don't really see what's wrong with Wraith's addons. In fact, that one detail aside, I'd say he probably has one of the best addon spreads in the game as far as all of them having a use goes.
There's definitely some killers who could use the help - even Nemesis, with a pretty decent addon spread when it comes to strength, generally has uninteresting addons and could use more spice - but I really think Wraith's doing just fine on this front.
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@CakeIsTheRoad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103854#Comment_4103854
It seems I have a new show to watch. That sounds great!
It's pretty good! Meanders a bit in its back half, but there's a lot to like.
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Ooh, I love thinking about these!
My two biggest ones, one I've suggested constantly and one I've recently come to think would be awesome, are:
- Worm, a web novel by an author with the username Wildbow, with the protagonist Taylor Hebert as the killer.
- Primeval, a British TV show about portals opening leading to prehistoric time periods, with the show's unique "Future Predator" monster as the killer.
I'd be super down for either of these and I'm cooking a power/perks pitch for the Future Predator idly in my spare time, ha.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103430#Comment_4103430
If people want the game to be less stale and not just see the same handful of perks all the time, then we need to actually nerf perks that have been seeing the same high usage for years.
Can we also get good new Survivor Perks? No? Ok. :(
Yes? There's been a bunch of good new survivor perks recently.
A couple I'd even call outright really strong, for that matter.
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@ArcT said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103249#Comment_4103249
Most of what you've listed here either predates or was unrelated to their stated QOL intiative.
https://deadbydaylight.com/news/quality-of-life-initiative-2025-phase-1/
There was an updated version of that roadmap that definitely added the Myers rework and I believe "new item" which became Fog Vials, at least, but on reflection I do think the teammate perks being visible and customisable auras were unrelated.
Thanks for finding the original roadmap though, I couldn't find it- very good example because we did get and keep most of this. Looking it over, I think it's just the stuff being discussed from 9.2 and 9.3 that didn't happen, and the MMR rework that got delayed. Not a bad hitrate for a roadmap that has that much in it.
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Everything that wasn't in that one specific update stayed, yeah. Map and Keys rework, Fog Vials existing, the Myers rework, changes to survivor spawns, the FOV slider, and I want to say visible teamwork perks and customisable auras were on that roadmap too? That's just off the top of my head, I'm definitely forgetting a bunch.
It's important to remember that initiative wasn't just the anti-tunnel and anti-slug. I can sympathise with wanting more changes to those things, I feel the same way myself, but that is its own conversation.
For the record though they're actually bringing something back from those PTBs alongside lowering the anti-tunnel duration, so that's something. It remains to be seen how that tradeoff shakes out.
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If it's the only information you've got, there's nothing wrong with going back to the hook as long as you're going to chase the unhooker.
If you chase the unhooked survivor, that's a different matter entirely, but going back to capitalise on the only information you have is completely legitimate otherwise.
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@Yamalive said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102269#Comment_4102269
Literally everytime a survivor is tunneled, the killer has LoS on them and elusive doesnt matter anymore. Also most maps dont have enough LoS-Blocker to hide at all. BHVR has to acknowledge, that the only way to deal with tunneling is effectively making it impossible to achieve. You can achieve this with only two ways: put on all the needed status effects or just put survivor into a different dimension (like spirit phasing). As long as devs refuse to accept this, there wont be any improvement gameplay-wise ever.
But due to last community stream, there is absolutely no hope in bhvr accepting anything like this. They literally take the view, if there are so many nerfs on one role, the other role needs as many buffs for compensation, they obviously lack any reasonable understanding of balancing.
It depends on context. The Elusive off-hook was legitimately pretty useful on the old PTB that tested all the anti-tunnel stuff, so it's definitely better than nothing, but there are also scenarios where it won't work.
If you can break line of sight, especially if the killer hits your Endurance, then you have a really high chance of losing the killer and stopping them tunnelling you. I agree it's not enough and something needs to be done about tunnelling on a structural level, which I said myself, but that doesn't mean this will achieve nothing.
Though, for the record I don't support either of those solutions. My personal solution for tunnelling is to shrink off-hook Endurance down to about six seconds, but put a mark on the unhooked survivor that ensures that they cannot gain hook states, making tunnelling them kinda pointless.
That mark would only be on one survivor at a time and would go away on conspicuous actions, of course, among a couple other bits of nuance, but the general direction is where I'd look. -
@Massquwatt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102241#Comment_4102241
The solution to anti-tunnel isn't stacking more effects onto people. All we really need is just a 3-5 second unhook notifcation delay and we're pretty much golden.
The only real solution to tunnelling is to make it mechanically impossible, but while something that achieves that without unfair side effects is being cooked, being able to slip away from the hook more reliably and evade the killer is one of the safer ways of stemming the bleeding, so to speak.
Elusive can't reliably be abused at all and does stand a chance of really helping people get away from the killer, so it's a pretty good temporary band-aid.
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@ArcT said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102192#Comment_4102192
You seem pretty hyperfixated on a binary situation of "they made an effort" ignoring that it was a token effort, which is the entire problem.
Furthermore, I don't think they are listening to survivor complaints. They're certainly not acting on them. Which is how we arrived at this situation where anti-tunnel was gutted for people who proxy camp. This is the killer approved anti-tunnel, one that when they decide they want to tunnel, does not work, and is worse than the previous anti-tunnel. This is not the anti-tunnel that survivors want or asked for. This is precisely the kind of anti-tunnel that killers asked for and want, the kind that is completely ineffective when they decide they want to ignore it.
I'm just repeating what my original statement was actually aimed at, which was the specific take of whether BHVR listen to survivor complaints or just ignore them. Since the other stuff in this patch is aimed at addressing some survivor complaints, you can't really say they're outright ignoring survivors.
Whether their proposed solutions are good enough or whether they're picking the right complaints is a different conversation entirely, that's all.Though for the record, Elusive post-unhook is a pretty solid form of anti-tunnel. I'm not sure if reducing the duration of Haste/Endurance as well is a good idea, but adding Elusive is a pretty good stopgap before real structural changes can be made. It's also a direct response to people talking about how parts of the anti-tunnel PTB could be implemented, as far as I can see.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102190#Comment_4102190
It's not listening to both sides if one side sees 80% impact and the other sees 20%.
Not listening to complaints and acting on the complaints poorly are radically different criticisms, they're not interchangeable.
I was only speaking on one of them, because right now I would prefer to see some of the exact numbers + see it all in action before I comment on the other. I could very easily see some of this be pretty impactful, but it depends on a few variables.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102128#Comment_4102128
Again, they're not the same. Everything is getting a numbers change instead of a functional change, which is what's needed. Vigil, SB, and especially the basekit BT will actually feel something from that, unlike the other perks. No one asked for this weird Deliverence change. Having it deactivate in end game would have been the more logical choice.
The killer numbers changes have completely missed the point. They won't address any of the issues they're meant to tackle. Whenever Nowhere to Hide comes up pretty much everyone agree the aura should stick to the gen. That's not what they're doing. It's the same with Coul. It needs to not work on slugs, and it needs to come with a rework to Infectious.
They treated all these things the same but they're not the same, and the survivor side will be feeling it much, much more—again. That's the problem. Every killer will benefit from these survivor nerfs, especially the BT; survivors will get crumbs from the killer changes.
This is getting pretty far away from my point again, I'm not here to argue how effective any given thing will be. Just pointing out that the specific take of BHVR only listening to one side clearly isn't accurate.
Personally, I feel pretty warm towards most of what we've seen here, but it's just gut feeling until we get to play on a PTB.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102120#Comment_4102120
I agree with their take, and this is a good example of it: nerfing survivor meta and basekit while nerfing killer niche.
I don't see a lot of listening to survivor complaints because I don't see enough survivor complaints. They're too quiet compared to killer mains. All I see is the CC gods cry about something on survivor side and their drones repeat it. There are people in this forum that have shown enough evidence that they're new to the game yet they complain about things that they've had zero interaction with. The killer side has an outrageous amount of parrots. The only time I see mass survivor complaints is when something big like this or the anti-tunnel ptb nuke happens. Yet the nerfs still go through. When's the last time a big change happened on killer because of survivors. Skull Merchant and gen kick limits? That was years ago.
I also don't think a lot of killer nerfs are complaint related. Henry was nerfed less than 2 months after release. Did you see endless complaints about him? People barely said a thing about him past his first week of release, and his players dropped off quick. It most likely happened because he was over performing, not because of feedback. But I highly doubt Fast Track was overperforming. Fog Vials didn't even get a chance. The anti-tunnel protection also never went live. It feels like killer nerfs are made more because of data, and survivor nerfs are made more because of outrage from killers.
The survivor meta and killer niche things being nerfed here are both complained about, hence me making the point I originally made.
People have been complaining about Sprint Burst for at least as long as I've been playing, and Vigil's been getting steadily more complaints ever since the buff it got a while back. Admittedly I don't personally see much Deliverance complaining, but it is a very strong perk so not too surprising.
Similarly, people have been complaining about hex builds with a focus on Jason, and people have been complaining about aggressive slugging builds. Thrill is a core component of those hex builds and Coulrophobia is at least one component of aggressive slugging builds.
This extends outwards. People complain about bad survivor perks, and survivor perks are getting buffed, including ones people say are bad when they aren't like Clean Break. This is happening on the killer side too.
People complain about anti-tunnel being used aggressively + the fifteen seconds being too much in the endgame, so it's being lowered, but people also obviously complain about tunnelling + talk about how parts of the anti-tunnel PTBs were fine to implement, so they're matching that with adding back something from those PTBs.
Whether these are good ideas and what impact they'll have on the game are different subjects we'll be more equipped to talk about after the PTB hits, and also they're just not what I'm saying here. Complaints are clearly getting listened to on both sides in just this one upcoming patch based on what we've been told from that stream.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102111#Comment_4102111
Do you really think those tiny adjustments to Thrill and Coul are the same as cutting 5s off of basekit BT, which is a massive change and the only token gift received when everything that was supposed to help with tunneling, slugging, and camping was canceled?
If Coul is being changed because of full slug builds than they missed the mark because Infectious is the bigger problem, and they're also buffing Nurse's to work better with slugging. So that's pointless and will change nothing. Coul just shouldn't work on slugs. The change to Thrill is also a niche build change and it's not going to kill hex builds. How hexes function needs a complete rework as does Thrill. Nerfing something like SB that's been meta for a decade, is not on the same planet as these other perks. You can say these aren't supposed to be equivalent but they're rolling out at the same time, and what we have is nerfs to two niche killer perks along with nerfs to two massively meta survivor perks, plus nerfs to survivor basekit. This following on the heels of nerfs instanerfs to Cross Examinarion and Fast Track. Meanwhile, Turn Back the Clock entered the meta unscathed.
As I said, I'm responding to the take that BHVR only listen to killers and survivor feedback is ignored, so no, I'm not saying those things are the same.
I of course have my own opinions about the upcoming changes but outside of acknowledging where they intersect with my point, I wasn't commenting on that part. I was responding to someone saying a specific thing, not the general contents of this upcoming patch.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102101#Comment_4102101
Making adjustments to the most overtuned killers isn't the equivalent of popular survivor perks and even basekit being nerfed. If you don't like a killer change there's 40 more you can choose from, and every killer that drops now is A tier. A ten-year-old perk is being nerfed in an environment where every killer that comes out is strong. We're about to have a killer who can both infect and injure you simultaneously from across the map while getting basekit old ruin and not having to risk hook denials, after the release of a killer that can quick reload, move super fast while invisible, get free info, and has had camping recently buffed. This is an illogical time to nerf survivors this heavily, and we've had a stream of insanerfs to perks like Fast Track and Cross Examination, and there were fog vials and medkits too. I can't see the logic in making killers more and more strong while survivors have, for some years, gotten very little. The same perks have been meta for years because all the new ones are garbage or get destroyed, so now they'll just destroy those old ones too too.
it's pretty easy to think of things that have been done to benefit survivors over the last however long.
The only big positive change survivors have had was the basekit BT increase and now it's gone.
The point isn't that these changes are meant to be one to one equivalent, the point is that feedback from both sides is clearly getting listened to because even this upcoming patch has changes informed by complaints and pain points from both killers and survivors.
That's the take I was responding to, specifically.
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Respectfully, I think you're letting isolated examples get too much weight here.
Even in the stream we're talking about here there were obviously things from survivor feedback, like nerfing Thrill and Coulrophobia and buffing the perks that they shared. Hell, they're if anything listening to player feedback too much because strong perks like Adrenaline and Clean Break are getting buffed.
Not complaining, though, I love Clean Break, I'll happily take it.There's a similar thing happening with the basekit BT being shortened, because they're also giving something at the same time. It's obviously an entirely valid opinion to think that won't make up for losing five seconds of duration (though I'm not sure I'd agree with it), but not mentioning it at all makes the argument come off as a little disingenuous.
You could make a similar argument about killer, too. Nurse may not have been nerfed in a long time, but Blight got nerfs recently with more changes announced for sometime down the road, Kaneki has been nerfed a few times (though I'd agree not enough, that's just a different argument altogether), Krasue was nerfed in a reasonable timeframe. That just leaves Jason, and he's brand new, there's not been as much opportunity to nerf him yet.
(And they are addressing survivor complaints about Jason by nerfing Thrill, too.)Changes do come to the game for both sides, it's pretty easy to think of things that have been done to benefit survivors over the last however long. Like I said above, I'm pretty stoked for some of the survivor changes in the upcoming patch, one of my favourite perks is getting buffed and two really obnoxious killer perks are getting nerfed, that's pretty nice as far as I'm concerned.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101381#Comment_4101381
The problem is if I knew someone had Deja Vu I wouldn't bring Prove Thyself. Nothing can make me bring a situationally nerfed perk. The fact is that the number it says on the menu and the number you end up with are two different numbers and that's downright deceptive. It feels like they installed this in a way that only a small percentage of players would notice it and understand it and it's otherwise a shadow nerf to builds for regular, casual players who don't obsess over every change in this game.
And, as usual, this is something a knowledgable SWF can avoid and solo can't.
Right, but the number you end up with is HIGHER than the number on the menu, so I would definitely argue it doesn't actually matter.
If you knew, sure, but you usually don't and just get gifted a random higher number than you expected. It's not something you'd choose if you're actively minmaxing with another person, but that's not normally the case.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101361#Comment_4101361
It does seem so but it's been mentioned plenty of times and they haven't done anything, and it's a simple values changes. That, or they could make the off-hook protections their own status effect (like Bloodlust) instead of two normal ones.
Healing was probably hit the hardest. After that it was mostly haste. Team gen perks like Prove Thyself also are reduced if the other person has something like Deja Vu or Resilience because it also works against teammates' builds.
I was using Dying Light and Thano on Plague but that got nerfed so I switched Dying to Pain Res. Because the game really needed more Pain Res.
For working against teammates' perks specifically, I personally think that isn't all that big of a deal unless we're in the territory of hyper minmaxing coordinated 4-mans, which I think it's safe to say usually isn't the assumption lol
To showcase why I'll use the example of bringing Leader, and focus on the healing speed. If I bring Leader into a game, I expect to be healed by other survivors 30% faster.
If I'm healed by someone with Botany Knowledge, the DR system kicks in, but we're both still getting more than we expected. I expected to be healed 30% faster, but I'm being healed 65% faster instead. They expected to heal me 50% faster, and got a 15% increase unexpectedly.
This part of the system I'd argue is completely fine. It goes for the example you gave, too- one survivor has Prove Thyself and expects you to repair 10% faster because of it, and you have Deja Vu so you expect to repair 6% faster. Both of you get an increase from your expected numbers to 13%.Comparing it to before, sure, that's a downgrade, but it's still an upgrade from what you meaningfully expected going in to a match.
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It's had basically zero observable effect for the most part, but that's fine, it's only meant to be a safety net to begin with.
I think people don't really properly think through the situation when they claim it's gutted builds and synergies, because the fact of the matter is there's a gigantic breadth of depth and nuance for build crafting that doesn't even touch the Diminishing Returns system, and on top of that, once you start looking at combos that are affected, a lot of them are still completely fine.
Basically the only things it HAS affected to a noticeable degree are the gimmick builds where every perk does the same thing, like the all-healing-speed builds. In those scenarios, it heightened what was already true: that's kind of a waste of perk slots and a real medic build (or equivalent) would do a lot better.Even there, though, it's not like the current end result isn't a fast heal, or equivalent for other variants.
So far, the big problem with Diminishing Returns is that the game should really tell you in the loadout screen when you'll be affected, and the small problem is that we've yet to see any of the potential buffs this system makes much safer to attempt. Pretty minor issues all told, though obviously I'd like to see them fixed.
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I definitely agree, I think it'd help with bloodweb clutter by allowing toolboxes (and now hacksaws) to have standardised addon amounts without losing more proportional functionality from the addon list.
I still wish it was slightly more than one per rarity, but that's a topic for a different discussion, as is the need for repair toolboxes to be reworked as well.
Though, I'm curious- you also suggest moving hacksaws to the newer charge system, which I'm not against but it raises the question of what happens when the sabotage is interrupted. Do you waste a charge, meaning you only have four chances, or do you not consume the charge until the action completes so you have unlimited chances but only four successes?
I could see it going either way, myself.
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@Rulebreaker said:
Amen for the grand return of Tryks and her humourous commentary
I'd be fine with her being in out-of-game material again like she was this time, but I neeeeed to see more of her…
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To be fair, you're not going to find many people outside of endgame chats who'll disagree with this.
That kind of surprised-pikachu-face stuff generally doesn't filter down into conversation spaces like this one, at least that I've noticed.
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I'd adore anything Darkstalkers, but I have to say it'd probably be a cosmetic collection rather than a full chapter.
I especially had the thought of Gallon/Talbain as a skin for Blight, what with his move where he ping-pongs around the screen.
I'd kill for anything with Lilith though, she's my favourite by far. Hell, she's my favourite fighting game character ever.
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I've always figured these lists have a bunch of stuff BHVR have absolutely no plan on doing and just want to throw off the scent/maybe poll interest in explicitly non-horror licenses.
That said: Who decided Darkstalkers should be on this list I want to kiss them on the mouth
Let me play my girl Lilith in a game released after the year I was born PLEASE I'll take it not being a fighting game
Doctor Who would be pretty awesome too, that one definitely actually belongs on the list.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098263#Comment_4098263
yeah I hear you on that, and the player part of me feels the same.
The plan is for major changes to be in the mid chapters, there might still be smaller changes in Chapter Releases, depending on what bandwidth is available, but those are not guaranteed (cos of the bandwidth) but I also think having major updates on a mid chapter when there's no new content being added is a wise move.
Regarding the comments on making changes without testing them, and then having something broken in the game for X amount of time - we've been there before and seen the discourse that it causes so its not something we will aim to do at all. Having them tested and in the PTB is our intention, my team works very very closely with the Live Design team (this is the team who handle the live game, not new content) and we're constantly discussing the feedback we receive and what is planned for upcoming patches etc.
When we have large killer updates, that eats into the bandwidth that's available, and then there's minimal, if any, changes elsewhere as well, so that affects priorities heavily. It's a balancing act between what will improve the game for X amount of people vs Y amount of people sometimes, as whilst we'd love to do more constantly and are investigating many different ways, we are limited with what can realistically be achieved within the time frames available.
It does make sense, even if it isn't ideal.
Would I be correct in asserting that we might be more likely to get smaller perk tweaks in content release PTBs? Not guaranteed, still, but because that takes up less bandwidth it might be more likely?
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@Mandy said:
It's things that we're looking at, we always try to get as much in each patch as possible…just when its a chapter release then the focus has to be there and that leaves very little (if any) bandwidth for anything else.
Production shedules are so tight on many things given how long some things naturally take, so anything with VFX, animations, programming and then testing. So having any sort of a scale to say that each PTB needs X amount of changes is not possible, a killer update for example is a bit more than tweaks but ultimately doesn't change the power too much and its just not possible with the current bandwidth to get two updates in a patch. And then the larger reworks need to be scheduled in for when there is the extra bandwidth in order to be able to do the work involved.
We'd love to be able to bring you more live design changes, as we are very very aware that we have a big game with plenty of things that need updating and we do try to get the max in each patch. its just unfortunate the reality of how much time is taken up with each individual thing.
I do appreciate you taking the time to answer, even if it isn't necessarily what I was hoping to hear, haha.
Hopefully the pace of balance changes doesn't slow too much, then. Personally, I only worry about midchapters with no new content getting more infrequent with more releases per year, but I'm sure something can be done about that.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098241#Comment_4098241
I'd argue DS is still a second chance perk, a necessary and more healthy one than previous iterations I will add but by definition it is THE 2nd chance perk considering what it does for you.
Personally I consider "Second chance" perks to be the ones that let you stay in the game longer after a mistake. Unbreakable and DS are the main ones that spring to my mind. You could argue Coup De Grace is also a 2nd chance perk as it gives you a very strong chase effect in exchange for losing one of your primary objectives
This is the thing that's always stuck out to me. What mistake does DS cover? Unbreakable, too.
The situation those perks work in aren't related to mistakes. DS requires the killer to target you after an unhook, which isn't your mistake, and Unbreakable requires you to be left on the ground by the killer, which also isn't your mistake.
I've never really understood calling these perks "second chance" perks because they cover situations where you didn't have a first chance.
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I've got a few, generated over a good few years of playing at this point.
- Funnily enough one of mine is that Corrupt SHOULDN'T be basekit, because it doesn't affect all killers equally and would lock some of them out of certain playstyles arbitrarily.
- Pig isn't weak anymore. She used to be, she used to be the bottom of the barrel alongside Trapper, but nowadays she's actually just pretty okay. Not top tier, but not weak anymore- five straight years of almost exclusively buffing her did actually work.
- Most perks on both sides are good, even if they could still use some love to make them more interesting or potent. Genuinely bad perks are kinda rare in this game, it's more common for a perk to be pretty decent but outclassed by other tools or just an unpopular effect.
- Similarly, new perk releases aren't as bad as people act like. Survivors have had at least one genuinely worthwhile perk per release on average, and while it's a bit spottier for killers there's still some good heat in there.
- Windows of Opportunity isn't strong, it's just nice to have. Strength doesn't correlate one to one with pickrate, too, in general.
- Finally, this game actually is good and fun to play.
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@ThatRyanB said:
Thanks for answering! To add on to this, I'd love to uno reverse one of the comments here. If Diminishing Returns information were to be shared in-game, how would you prefer to see this handled?
Not the OP, but I have to make the (to me) obvious suggestion - in the last summer event, there were little arrows that indicated when a perk didn't mesh as well with the blood generators, which I think would be perfect for this.
Little red down arrow, then in "more details" have the revised number after Diminishing Returns affects it based on the other perks in the loadout.
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In the loadout screen, directly to the right of the part where it says "Inventory/Perks", there's a little "i" in a circle. Hover over that, then hit more details, and you've got the list.
This process should be streamlined, but you can get the info in-game at least. Weirdly, it doesn't say what the numbers are, but it has the list of affected modifiers.